https://preview.redd.it/yzn7pleocv5d1.jpeg?width=746&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bcc22a79f6391010b176c29e9eca850fa42c46b7
I think now Spain actually has a slight edge over the rest
(credits to [EmperorTigerstar](https://www.youtube.com/@EmperorTigerstar) for the map, which comes from [This Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BobvTwAMZM)
I guess if the farmers were propped up by two or three great powers then maybe theyād have a chance but everyone loves Britain so idk why theyād do that
Yeah, and for the time period this map is written in (the 1770s) Britan is the most powerful country on Earth! no way they would lose to their weak farmers,
Not really related but Iāve heard, and maybe someone else can confirm, that at the time of the signing of the Declaration of Independence there was not a single British soldier (British as opposed to Loyalist) in the mainland of the colonies, besides perhaps a few officers sprinkled among the Loyalists and Indians in an advisory role.
There were some troops on Gwynnās Island off the coast of Virginia, troops aboard ships in New York Harbor, in the Delaware Bay, and at other points along the coast, and troops across the āCanadianā border in Quebec, but thatās supposedly it.
It would seem like a great time to sign a declaration of independence, wouldn't it? But it also seems like stretching a point a bit.
I guess technically since some British troops had withdrawn offshore in May, if you argue that some colonies had signed the Declaration on July 1, and General Howe's troops didn't start landing until July 2, you could say that Howe's troops didn't count somehow and for that one day the rebel colonies were free of British occupation.
But to my mind, the Declaration didn't really pass until July 2, and 30 thousand regulars of the British Army is about as far from "not a single British soldier" as one can get.
Also, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, and Quebec all counted as "the colonies," too. They didn't join the rebellious Continental Congress but had been invited. Remember that nobody knew that there were "thirteen colonies" at the time. There had been only 12 at the First Continental Congress, and were only 12 again at the start of the Second in 1775. For all anyone knew at that time, by 1776 there might be 6.
Or 15.
So the Revolutionary War really involved all the British Atlantic colonies. From Newfoundland to the Bahamas. Any of those could theoretically have joined the cause, or dropped out.
Of course by the summer of 1776, after prolonged sessions of the Continental Congress, the list of true "die hard" colonies was firming up, but it wasn't truly settled as "the" thirteen colonies until the ink was dry on the Declaration.
And even then it only lasted a few months, before Vermont seceded from New York and became the 14th.
Meanwhile British troops remained very much deployed in those other colonies.
The often forgotten rebel colony is Bermuda, which had a long and close relationship with South Carolina. As the colony was resource poor the Continental Congress allowed an amendment to their anti-British boycott to spare Bermuda on the hopes it would eventually join, but their clear status as āthat place British ships dock before going on to Virginia or Jamaicaā kept it tentatively in line.
The actual colonial unity itself though is a messy story. The big supporters were the New England colonies of Connecticut, Rhode Island and Massachusetts Bay, and the southern colonies of Virginia and South Carolina.
In the far north, Quebec had no love of either side but they at least knew theyād have border losses to a Patriot New York which would collapse their fur trade down to St Louis. New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland do have Patriot holdouts but are too reliant on British aid after the Seven Yearsā War and NS is host to Howeās Navy and Howeās Army in 1776, so they have no chance of flipping.
In New England, New Hampshire was a holdout who folded once it became clear Mass. would blockade trade.
Of the Middle colonies, New York was very divided on policies, with the pro-independence Patriots being a minority and not able to fully control even their own Provincial Congress. They ended up pushing for independence despite their own delegates not singing it. New Jersey similarly was fiercely divided, and probably could have come out Loyalist like New York during the 1776 campaign had the crucial West Jersey not been so heavily Quaker (there were regular underground railroads of Loyalists passing through Jersey, as well as the odd associator bands targeting Patriot county leaders).
Pennsylvania and Delaware (if you can count them as two states at this point) as well as Maryland held out for the first year of the war, and were finally compelled to throw in at a point where they were already surrounded by Patriot states.
Of the southern colonies, North Carolina was fiercely divided east and west. Many plantation owners like in Virginia and South Carolina had sided with the Patriots, seeking both to protect their influence in an independent America as well as resisting Josiah Martinās consideration of freeing the slaves like Murray did in Virginia. The west were mostly poorer farmers from out-of-state or refugees from the Highland Clearances, who would remain Loyalist and continue an insurgency throughout the war. South Carolina would at one point invade to reinforce the Patriot government there. To maintain Patriot control NC would end up ordering the banishment of basically anyone with a Scottish last name.
And of the far south, we have East Florida, West Florida and Georgia. Georgia is heavily Loyalist but falls to SC pressure like the north did, only to flip back when Wright pushed for a reconquest. Its small Patriot army quickly folds in Savannah and a Loyalist militia is raised and paid for out-of-province fighting in SC.
East and West Florida meanwhile are forever Loyalist, and spend much of the ā70s engaging in a border war with Georgia, both being the destination of Loyalist southern refugee bands and the launching point of provincial raids such as by Thomas Brown (not to be confused with John Brown).
I see the war less of Britain v thirteen or so colonies and more as a dozen civil wars that Britain is trying to contain, as from region to region even the Patriot cause is different (eg. SC and Georgia hate British neutrality on Indian raids backed by Spain, something Mass wouldnāt care about).
Iām talking about the *United Colonies*, not the *British colonies in general*. Counting the Canadian colonies seems a bit silly when weāre referring to a specific document that had exactly 13 colonies listed on it. I already gave āCanadiansā their honorary mention in the form of Quebec (since troops in Quebec had just fought Patriot forces a few days before) but if we were just including any old British colony, why not just go ahead and add Bengal, Jamaica, Madrasā¦ hell, put Ireland on the list.
But yes, Howe landing on Staten Island does invalidate that bit of trivia. In hindsight, that thing I heard may have been specifically in reference to Staten Island - something like āThe only British regulars at the time of the Declarationās passing were in New York and had just been landed that day.ā
Well you could argue that Staten Island being an island doesn't count as "the American mainland." I'm sure many New Yorkers would agree. Since this is r/mapporncirclejerk I imagine there's even a meme for that.
>Iām talking about theĀ *United Colonies*, not theĀ *British colonies in general*.
Yes, and exactly who "the United Colonies" were seems crystal clear cut to you and me with the benefit of 250 years of hindsight. But there was not as clear a distinction at the time.
Would those united colonies of the Second Continental Congress include New Brunswick or Newfoundland? Florida? For that matter, would they continue to include New York, Pennsylvania, Delaware, and South Carolina or would those colonies quit over independence? At various times throughout that first year of the Second Continental Congress, the answers to those questions were not always clear to contemporaries.
You and I only know that "there were thirteen original colonies" in retrospect. In fact as far as I can tell, New York didn't actually sign on until late in the summer of 1776, practically at the point where Vermont was about to formally secede. So the "original colony count" went from 12 to 14 almost all at once, only ever lingering at 13 for a brief couple of months.
Hell yes, if Gwynnās Island isnāt part of the mainland then in the spirit of the circlejerk, neither is Staten Island. Iāll take it!
āUnited Coloniesā is not an abstract concept. If we went back in time to July 2nd, 1776 and asked Thomas Jefferson who the United Colonies are, heād give us the names of the 13 between New Hampshire and Georgia. And how do we know that? Because heād just seen them listed in the Declaration! Theyāre right there at the bottom if you want to check, the signers all grouped themselves together by colony going south to north and there are exactly 13 groups, one for each colony. There is no ā*other colonies could have joined*,ā thatās a meaningless statement - Nicaragua might someday in the future join the United States; does that mean āOn June 11th, 2024 there are no Nicaraguan troops occupying US soilā is incorrect?
>And how do we know that? Because heād just seen them listed in the Declaration!
Except, he hadn't! New York hadn't signed yet, and wouldn't until nearly September. As far as Jefferson was concerned in your scenario, there were 12.
Imagine if the blue part labeled "N.Y." in the map were red instead. And that became the shape of the new United States, instead of what you are familiar with. (Well except that probably Long Island would have become part of Connecticut.)
There is no reason for contemporaries to have been particularly attached to the idea that New York must inherently always become one of the states. Or really any of them. Look at the map. New Brunswick and Nova Scotia are just as contiguous, if things had gone differently (maybe Benedict Arnold didn't defect?) we wouldn't bat an eyelash today about including them in the blue blob, but leaving a cut-out in the inland mid-Atlantic where New York somehow stayed part of Canada.
That would make just as much sense to us, if it is what we all grew up seeing all the time, as the map that we are familiar with. And it could have gone that way as far as Jefferson knew in July of 1776.
Technically by that date none of them had signed, but the vote had been posed to all 13, including New York. The point is that however you want to frame āUnited Colonies,ā they can only include those 13. Who cares about contiguous? New Brunswick and Nova Scotia didnāt have delegations to the 2nd Continental Congress, why would they possibly be included?
Am I wrong, and Nicaragua can be considered to have troops on US soil right now because thereās a tiny chance that Nicaragua will eventually be considered US soil? Because otherwise, that whole line of reasoning doesnāt make a shred of sense.
You know how massive the British empire versus some angry conlist oh no my taxes are too high get over it you pay ten times less then the mainlanders so deal with it. This is a very easy British W. If they fumble to loosing this i would end myself no joke
On the east side of Illinois, there's 4 rivers. One of them is the Wabash and the other is the ohio river. What are the two rivers beneath it that also seem to feed into Mississippi?
Obviously Spain
Yeah, I mean yeah. But that is by the end of this century.
Except that Spain is in Europe- fix the map first š
https://preview.redd.it/yzn7pleocv5d1.jpeg?width=746&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bcc22a79f6391010b176c29e9eca850fa42c46b7 I think now Spain actually has a slight edge over the rest
Portugal has a peninsula shaped like Europe confirmed?
Yep i think they wi win i mean 400M+ population
Don't forget to consider all those people in the American-shaped areas, and the people in regular Spain!
What the fuck am I looking at. Why is Catalonia a country apart ššš
This map was made when Catalonia was a country for 8 seconds.
Now I get why do Andalusians say "mi arma" when refering to their loved ones
Letās go to war with Spain
Rupert. Thatās a lot of land for one guy in the far north, he must be pretty strong to administer that. He could probably beat Goku.
Yeah, I'm not messing around with Rupert and the Wildlings.
Rupert hasn't been the same since the Spaniards roasted Podgy.
(credits to [EmperorTigerstar](https://www.youtube.com/@EmperorTigerstar) for the map, which comes from [This Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BobvTwAMZM)
Was gonna say it looked mad familiar
believe it or not, Indians
How's they get all the way there from Asia?
playne prolly
indian reserve sounds like a fancy imported wine
Rupert
https://preview.redd.it/yf5kxfeiiu5d1.png?width=497&format=png&auto=webp&s=7ee938b77927046c17c3ca2638fe616c198184e5
Rupert's land solos
Obviously Britain, I mean theyāre a superpower how would they lose to some farmers
I guess if the farmers were propped up by two or three great powers then maybe theyād have a chance but everyone loves Britain so idk why theyād do that
yeah, fr
Long term nobody
The Earth will win in the end. "This planet will shake us off like a bad case of fleas." Edit: -George Carlin
Where is that quote from?
George Carlin, I should have attributed. It's a great bit if you haven't seen it
Red, they have more land
Okay, we gotta stop Rupert before he gets more land
iām probably gonna go with one of the flos
i think theyre my aunts
Obviously Britain. They had all the red territory and completely surrounded this tiny insignificant blue nation. No way they would loseā¦ right?
Yeah, and for the time period this map is written in (the 1770s) Britan is the most powerful country on Earth! no way they would lose to their weak farmers,
Smart moneyās on espain
no
'Murica
In that context in that century and in that region, Spain by far.
Me
Indian reserve didnāt last long
As much as I hate to admit it, Fr\*nce
Give it a few thousand years and the ocean will eventually win.
White.
Not really related but Iāve heard, and maybe someone else can confirm, that at the time of the signing of the Declaration of Independence there was not a single British soldier (British as opposed to Loyalist) in the mainland of the colonies, besides perhaps a few officers sprinkled among the Loyalists and Indians in an advisory role. There were some troops on Gwynnās Island off the coast of Virginia, troops aboard ships in New York Harbor, in the Delaware Bay, and at other points along the coast, and troops across the āCanadianā border in Quebec, but thatās supposedly it.
It would seem like a great time to sign a declaration of independence, wouldn't it? But it also seems like stretching a point a bit. I guess technically since some British troops had withdrawn offshore in May, if you argue that some colonies had signed the Declaration on July 1, and General Howe's troops didn't start landing until July 2, you could say that Howe's troops didn't count somehow and for that one day the rebel colonies were free of British occupation. But to my mind, the Declaration didn't really pass until July 2, and 30 thousand regulars of the British Army is about as far from "not a single British soldier" as one can get. Also, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, and Quebec all counted as "the colonies," too. They didn't join the rebellious Continental Congress but had been invited. Remember that nobody knew that there were "thirteen colonies" at the time. There had been only 12 at the First Continental Congress, and were only 12 again at the start of the Second in 1775. For all anyone knew at that time, by 1776 there might be 6. Or 15. So the Revolutionary War really involved all the British Atlantic colonies. From Newfoundland to the Bahamas. Any of those could theoretically have joined the cause, or dropped out. Of course by the summer of 1776, after prolonged sessions of the Continental Congress, the list of true "die hard" colonies was firming up, but it wasn't truly settled as "the" thirteen colonies until the ink was dry on the Declaration. And even then it only lasted a few months, before Vermont seceded from New York and became the 14th. Meanwhile British troops remained very much deployed in those other colonies.
The often forgotten rebel colony is Bermuda, which had a long and close relationship with South Carolina. As the colony was resource poor the Continental Congress allowed an amendment to their anti-British boycott to spare Bermuda on the hopes it would eventually join, but their clear status as āthat place British ships dock before going on to Virginia or Jamaicaā kept it tentatively in line. The actual colonial unity itself though is a messy story. The big supporters were the New England colonies of Connecticut, Rhode Island and Massachusetts Bay, and the southern colonies of Virginia and South Carolina. In the far north, Quebec had no love of either side but they at least knew theyād have border losses to a Patriot New York which would collapse their fur trade down to St Louis. New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland do have Patriot holdouts but are too reliant on British aid after the Seven Yearsā War and NS is host to Howeās Navy and Howeās Army in 1776, so they have no chance of flipping. In New England, New Hampshire was a holdout who folded once it became clear Mass. would blockade trade. Of the Middle colonies, New York was very divided on policies, with the pro-independence Patriots being a minority and not able to fully control even their own Provincial Congress. They ended up pushing for independence despite their own delegates not singing it. New Jersey similarly was fiercely divided, and probably could have come out Loyalist like New York during the 1776 campaign had the crucial West Jersey not been so heavily Quaker (there were regular underground railroads of Loyalists passing through Jersey, as well as the odd associator bands targeting Patriot county leaders). Pennsylvania and Delaware (if you can count them as two states at this point) as well as Maryland held out for the first year of the war, and were finally compelled to throw in at a point where they were already surrounded by Patriot states. Of the southern colonies, North Carolina was fiercely divided east and west. Many plantation owners like in Virginia and South Carolina had sided with the Patriots, seeking both to protect their influence in an independent America as well as resisting Josiah Martinās consideration of freeing the slaves like Murray did in Virginia. The west were mostly poorer farmers from out-of-state or refugees from the Highland Clearances, who would remain Loyalist and continue an insurgency throughout the war. South Carolina would at one point invade to reinforce the Patriot government there. To maintain Patriot control NC would end up ordering the banishment of basically anyone with a Scottish last name. And of the far south, we have East Florida, West Florida and Georgia. Georgia is heavily Loyalist but falls to SC pressure like the north did, only to flip back when Wright pushed for a reconquest. Its small Patriot army quickly folds in Savannah and a Loyalist militia is raised and paid for out-of-province fighting in SC. East and West Florida meanwhile are forever Loyalist, and spend much of the ā70s engaging in a border war with Georgia, both being the destination of Loyalist southern refugee bands and the launching point of provincial raids such as by Thomas Brown (not to be confused with John Brown). I see the war less of Britain v thirteen or so colonies and more as a dozen civil wars that Britain is trying to contain, as from region to region even the Patriot cause is different (eg. SC and Georgia hate British neutrality on Indian raids backed by Spain, something Mass wouldnāt care about).
https://preview.redd.it/uwoo6f4yoz5d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=752cbf2326a5a00db029819ddc6abfb5f3e06529
Iām talking about the *United Colonies*, not the *British colonies in general*. Counting the Canadian colonies seems a bit silly when weāre referring to a specific document that had exactly 13 colonies listed on it. I already gave āCanadiansā their honorary mention in the form of Quebec (since troops in Quebec had just fought Patriot forces a few days before) but if we were just including any old British colony, why not just go ahead and add Bengal, Jamaica, Madrasā¦ hell, put Ireland on the list. But yes, Howe landing on Staten Island does invalidate that bit of trivia. In hindsight, that thing I heard may have been specifically in reference to Staten Island - something like āThe only British regulars at the time of the Declarationās passing were in New York and had just been landed that day.ā
Well you could argue that Staten Island being an island doesn't count as "the American mainland." I'm sure many New Yorkers would agree. Since this is r/mapporncirclejerk I imagine there's even a meme for that. >Iām talking about theĀ *United Colonies*, not theĀ *British colonies in general*. Yes, and exactly who "the United Colonies" were seems crystal clear cut to you and me with the benefit of 250 years of hindsight. But there was not as clear a distinction at the time. Would those united colonies of the Second Continental Congress include New Brunswick or Newfoundland? Florida? For that matter, would they continue to include New York, Pennsylvania, Delaware, and South Carolina or would those colonies quit over independence? At various times throughout that first year of the Second Continental Congress, the answers to those questions were not always clear to contemporaries. You and I only know that "there were thirteen original colonies" in retrospect. In fact as far as I can tell, New York didn't actually sign on until late in the summer of 1776, practically at the point where Vermont was about to formally secede. So the "original colony count" went from 12 to 14 almost all at once, only ever lingering at 13 for a brief couple of months.
Hell yes, if Gwynnās Island isnāt part of the mainland then in the spirit of the circlejerk, neither is Staten Island. Iāll take it! āUnited Coloniesā is not an abstract concept. If we went back in time to July 2nd, 1776 and asked Thomas Jefferson who the United Colonies are, heād give us the names of the 13 between New Hampshire and Georgia. And how do we know that? Because heād just seen them listed in the Declaration! Theyāre right there at the bottom if you want to check, the signers all grouped themselves together by colony going south to north and there are exactly 13 groups, one for each colony. There is no ā*other colonies could have joined*,ā thatās a meaningless statement - Nicaragua might someday in the future join the United States; does that mean āOn June 11th, 2024 there are no Nicaraguan troops occupying US soilā is incorrect?
>And how do we know that? Because heād just seen them listed in the Declaration! Except, he hadn't! New York hadn't signed yet, and wouldn't until nearly September. As far as Jefferson was concerned in your scenario, there were 12. Imagine if the blue part labeled "N.Y." in the map were red instead. And that became the shape of the new United States, instead of what you are familiar with. (Well except that probably Long Island would have become part of Connecticut.) There is no reason for contemporaries to have been particularly attached to the idea that New York must inherently always become one of the states. Or really any of them. Look at the map. New Brunswick and Nova Scotia are just as contiguous, if things had gone differently (maybe Benedict Arnold didn't defect?) we wouldn't bat an eyelash today about including them in the blue blob, but leaving a cut-out in the inland mid-Atlantic where New York somehow stayed part of Canada. That would make just as much sense to us, if it is what we all grew up seeing all the time, as the map that we are familiar with. And it could have gone that way as far as Jefferson knew in July of 1776.
Technically by that date none of them had signed, but the vote had been posed to all 13, including New York. The point is that however you want to frame āUnited Colonies,ā they can only include those 13. Who cares about contiguous? New Brunswick and Nova Scotia didnāt have delegations to the 2nd Continental Congress, why would they possibly be included? Am I wrong, and Nicaragua can be considered to have troops on US soil right now because thereās a tiny chance that Nicaragua will eventually be considered US soil? Because otherwise, that whole line of reasoning doesnāt make a shred of sense.
I like ma. I hope they win
That light blue corner of Vermont. Because they have Todd.
East Florida because why not
I got the lakes
You know how massive the British empire versus some angry conlist oh no my taxes are too high get over it you pay ten times less then the mainlanders so deal with it. This is a very easy British W. If they fumble to loosing this i would end myself no joke
Idk who Rubert is butā¦ you go buddy!
New Brunswick solos
:(
Why would india have their reserves in America? Are they stupid???
Penn. has this
Personally I'm rooting for the Indians
Indian Army will takeover entire America and make it Akhand Bharat.
Rupert
Moopsy.
real answer: the french
Classic people > land
Ohio
Hypothetically pointless to discuss !!!
Obviously a bunch of farmers with no combat experience or military structure
Cork on a fork!
On the east side of Illinois, there's 4 rivers. One of them is the Wabash and the other is the ohio river. What are the two rivers beneath it that also seem to feed into Mississippi?
The Colonies. They've already done it once.
That Indian reserve will lose that's for sure.
Red has two Floridas, so they definitely lose
No way the British lose against anweak colony that they exorted!
The natives, but the settlers used bio weapons (measles, smallpox), which is a war crime
Who of them have more artillery and fpv drones?
is this what this sub has come to
Yes šĀ
easilt the alliance in red they have so much more land
Rupert
The ocean
The ones with European heritage.
r/mapporncirclejerk will beat the fucking humor out of any meme well beyond its death