The fact that you have people regularly commenting and getting upset with you not using meta strats is honestly depressing and why I honestly want to distance myself from the community
I've seen a comment under a slinger-only gimmick run saying "it's not efficient, and you will never get better like this". Fun is an alien concept for some. I guess, I should have made a disclaimer that this is a gimmick run too, but oh well, it's too late.
I see Meta as a framework for builds. I know is the maximum damage possible and I work from that to replace skills that I think is better for survivability or comfort. Because of this I like more builders that explain the role and uses of each skills in the build, this way you know what are the priorities and bigger impact on DPS.
That's what people forget a lot of times. Your offensive skills mean jack crap if you cart and fail the quest. Having a defensive set is really a lot less stressful in that regard.
He means go fight every single monster in the game and don't get hit once.. Not even the best of the best players in the world can do that outside of the few monsters they try to WR speedrun. If you focus on avoiding damage at all times from all sources, then your damage will likely be in the shits. It's just not realistic that you'll never get hit, ever, while playing a game like this - especially after finishing the story, when the grinding is just getting started and you'll have to hunt each monsters dozens to hundreds of times.
For 99.9% of the playerbase, giving up some of the weaker DPS skills like Attack Boost (or really anything that's not the trinity of WEX/CB/CE and maybe some Agitator) for Health Boost, Divine Blessing, Evade Window/Extender, Blight Res (or the specific elemental resistance for the monster you're targeting, since 20+ resistance to an element gives you immunity to the corresponding blight), etc. will drastically improve their hunt times and total carts FAR more than the extra 5% theoretical damage boost would have. All the time spent healing, carting, running around, re-eating/buffing, and generally being tilted amounts to significantly more time for the overwhelming majority of players than a tiny bit of possible damage can make up for. People act like you have to give up every single bit of damage to get one rank of Defense Boost (joke, it's a bad skill in the late-endgame) lol.
Bro, you're yapping about stuff I already know. I was just doing some light ribbing. I don't care what builds people play. Cause at the end of the day your skill determines how you make your builds.
I’ve always said this, I find it really silly when people go on and on about meta this and meta that clutch claw blah blah blah. But exactly as you have proven, meta sets don’t matter nearly as much as just simply playing better.
in all fairness like, some of the complaints about the claw is certainly tenderizing and hitzone nerfs, but also a lot are about like, wow is the addon garbage on some weapons! it feels great on some, like hammer or lance, it's laughable on a lot of other weapons
Also the claw used to be way, way, **way** worse, and the tenderiser deco didn’t exist iirc. Many of the complaints began in the dark ages and are now parroted by people who don’t understand that you need an actual opening to use the claw.
the problem with what you said is that like openings should be like trips or flashes to hit the monster, not to use your precious downtime to normalize the damage the monster took in low and high rank because they arbitrary decided hitzones should be lower in master rank
That’s a fair point and my perspective is probably very biased just from playing the game long enough, but in my experience keeping a monster tenderised is really simple once stop trying to force it. Also aside from a few endgame fights the game is quite lenient with tenderising opportunities, but I do understand that it can get tiring.
I’d compare it to flying states on some monsters. It can be a fun mechanic that switches things up and makes you reconsider your approach, but it can also be an unfun slog that destroys any momentum you had built up.
the inherent issue is that world was not designed from the base with the thing in mind. it was added as the g rank tool, and usually when they add stuff they rebalance in a different entry.
it's also why wirebugs are fine in Rise, because the game was designed from the get-go with them in mind, not something they patched half way through the game's progression. world has you kinda go from oh the claw is cute i guess to needing to actively use it in a hunt, and like i said above, it just does not mesh well with some weapons. SnS, DBs, Lance, Hammer? That shit fucking rules, man. Meanwhile it sucks donkey dick on like longsword or Greatsword. it feels like an active detriment
Cc works great with gs I have no idea what you mean..you can use the clutch burst to stun with slinger ammo and immediately follow into a tcs if you set your self up.
I don’t know, the claw at least follows the rules of mh combat, while wirebugs said “step aside” and rewrote half of the game.
I much prefer to deal with tenderising from time to time than having a gimped dodge, aggressive tracking, long attack strings, enormous air hitboxes and prevalent aoe.
I think they lead themselves into a corner with how simple worlds slinger was and so they needed to iterate on it somehow.
Claw wasn’t perfect and even the devs realised that given what we have in Wilds (which btw looks like a great system, leaving all of the fun parts of weak points without the tedium of the claw itself), but it wasn’t the end of the world.
? Rules of MH are completely arbitrary and change every game, so that's not a good point to make. Like every entry plays differently
It just sounds like you didnt like rise, much like i hated the clutch claw. It doesnt need to be more complicated than that
Rules as in the games went from proactive play to reactive, although the same thing happened with world.
All I’m saying is that the cc is much less invasive it seems. Not sure if we got anywhere, but it was an interesting discussion nonetheless.
"Rules as in the games went from proactive play to reactive"
I mean a lot of weapons were also very reactive in old gen, especially in MHU4 and MHGEN which added more options to force an opening.
If he is building a full defense build he is not playing better but likely worse lol. The meta builds often don't have any defense skills because if you are skilled you rarely get hit so it's just dead skills. Imagine thinking that building full tank because you are getting slapped by every attack is skillful play.
You misunderstood my comment, I’m saying that someone running all the offensive skills will still have a similar time to someone who’s just good at the game.
Well yeah player skill > all. don't matter what your build is if you are bad. However meta builds are for people who are good with their little to no defense the dps increase is significant.
You're not wrong but your comment are still kinda pointless smh. You aren't going to learn any shit for keep dying to boss one mechanic, especially those unfair one shoot attack, it will only make the fight obnoxious and rage quit for most. Survive long enough is the actual way to let you learn all those boss movement and git gud.
Plus unless you're really skillful and play the game perfectly the dps increase IS NOT significant, you'll just play the game very cautiously, wasting bunch of time predicting and dodging the wrong boss move, to the point that brute force actually save you move time
Still I'm not saying that it's bad to be good at game but just let casual player BUILD THE WAY THEY WANT, keep your mouth shut and let people ENJOY THE GAME THE WAY THEY WANT. Does git gud worth it if you're just gonna keep shouting at screen and wreck your keyboard every 5 minutes? IT'S A GAME DUH, ENJOY IT
I'm on team use whatever skills lead you to a successful hunt. If that's defense, so be it. Crit? Sure thing. Healing? If it works it works!
Some of the most fun I've had in Monster Hunter (started at the tail of second Gen) is building gimmicky ass paralysis sets and pushing them as far as they go. Meta is just a suggestion at the end of the day.
I mean, half the battle with monsters is timing and positioning, and a blind playthrough will pretty much always lose out to a run with someone who knows the monsters/weapons ahead of time and can just speed bag stuff with knowledge. Yeah, the crit guy is doing 40% more damage per hit with 100% crit, but if your landing twice as many hits as him because you know the fight and he doesn't, your gonna out DPS them. It's apples and oranges.
That said, play how you want, but I don't think this is proof of anything other than the fact that your a solid player, with or without offensive skills. Gg on your challenge as well, sounds like you had a good time.
On top of this, experience of getting through the missions is also much faster.
1st playthrough of the Anjanath hunt, you spawn at camp 1 and run around like a headless chicken until you either find some tracks or luck into the cutscenes area itself.
Playthrough 2, you've already unlocked all or most of the camps, you spawn in at camp 11 and take the little jump and the cutscenes has activated 5 seconds into the mission. Now repeat this with nearly every single story mission.
True. Also, weapons play a part as well, just because someone doesn't have a ton of offensive skills doesn't mean they haven't speedran the mats for the best weapons at their point in the story. And the difference between some of the early MR options, having decent raw and sharpness can mean the world.
Yeah, I sucked during my first playthrough, but I also compared it to other people, for whom it wasn't the first time, either, and who have plenty of heads on the wall: AT Velk, Fatalis, Alatreon, etc. My clear times were 1/3 faster on the average.
I would have been fine with me being proportionally slower, but I was really surprised at being disproportionally faster.
I mean, I run full meta if that gives you any idea of my personal playstyle, and my times for monsters generally clocks in around the 5-8 minute mark on average for the general monster. Alatreon averages 7-8 minutes and fatalis the full 15 cause I suck at him lmao. What are the sorts of times your seeing on some of the endgame stuff?
6-9 for Tier 2, around 10 for elders, 14 for MR KT. I don't solo Alatreon and Fatalis because I don't want to. Not very representative, because it's difficult to avoid damage skills in a Fatalis set, but I've done tempered Frostfang in about 9 minutes during my first playthrough without any damage skills and augments, with a Raging Brachy weapon, if this helps.
So basically you have no real kills to backup your claim lol. How can you say you are 1/3 faster and then say you cant solo fatalis or alatreon. 14 min KT is also slow like 50% slower than any meta builds which do it in like 8ish mins
Youtube is not representative of "the average". People usually upload stuff to YouTube to brag about something. You would need access to Capcom servers to determine the average.
Ya YouTube has 3 and 4 minute KT kills lol it isn't a stretch to think anyone good enough to actually play with a meta set can do it in dbl the time. 14 mins is slow you can be generous and say it's only 4 minutes slower than a normal 10 minute kill but that's still 40% slower. Defense skills are great to learn the game but are absolutely useless when you are good as they do nothing since the goal is to not get hit. You can have exceptions like a flinch free earplugs divine blessings combo with a lifesteal weapon to essentially trade with monsters but that's a 1 off niche.
Well, I will still most certainly advise the majority of people against doing that, but for completely different reasons than you'd expect.
I have no issues with people running very little to no offensive skills, even if I do secretly judge you for it, and I will not heckle people for using a ton of defensive skills either (they exist for a fucking reason: to be used).
The problem I see with folks running mostly defensive skills, is that they *play* too defensively; they back off too much, scarcely attack or try to find openings, and panic in dangerous situations which just leads to them backing off even more. They don't deal no damage because they lack meta skills, they deal no damage because they aren't attacking or trying to exploit openings—it's a mindset thing, and because they lack damage skills, they aren't doing much when they *do* finally attack.
TL;DR: most players that use a lot of defensive skills just don't try to attack or learn openings, which leads to them failing or hardly contributing to difficult and/or demanding hunts. It makes sense when you think about it: someone who prioritises defense over everything is going to be less focused on finding opportunities to deal damage.
One can see this phenomenon especially with lance. The weapon itself (played optimally) has an insanely aggressive playstyle as it requires constant uptime to make up for its low damage. Lance's defensive capabilities serve to support and enhance its offense; one is able to be so aggro precisely because they can negate a monster's retaliation.
A seemingly significant portion of hunters pick up the weapon to "turtle" though. There's nothing wrong with this as one can play however they wish, but that playstyle, paired with the tendency to stack defensive skills as well as the weapon's innately lower damage, can cause much longer hunts. This also exacerbates lance's reputation of being weak and "turtlely." Unless one is boasting an above average level of skill, lance with meta builds should be competitive with other weapons for the most part.
My guy, they don't literally mean your hunt will take 40 mins, it's obviously hyperbole. Considering the average hunt time is 6-8 mins with optimal (or "meta" as you want to classify it as) then your 15 mins average more than double the optimal time, now if you enjoy playing with full defensive skills then be my guest, but don't try to claim that it doesn't make a big different because it does. Otherwise people would not have bother to practice/theory crafting builds if it wasn't the case.
For me i enjoy playing optimally because it is the most obvious sign of you improving (which is the entire point of the game), playing optimally condition you into playing better as a by product and that's why people advocate for it. After all why would you want defensive skills if you don't get hit in the first place? Speed is key in this game, both offline and online, in offline it helps you farm for stuffs you want faster, in online it cut downs on hunt time preventing mistakes to take place from both you and your teammates, there is literally no downside to it. If you wanna gauge how impactful you are on a hunt, get a dps meter mod and jump into a hunt with someone who plays optimally and you will see the different.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats!
40
+ 6
+ 8
+ 15
= 69
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>15 mins average
I didn't say "15 mins average", I said "15 mins maximum during the main story", mostly elders, usually 10-13. I'm yet to see 6-8 minute main story quests done casually.
Okay, let's assume you're telling the truth, now use an optimal setup and do those quests again, see how much time you cut down, or better yet like i said, slap on a dps meter mod and compare your own dps between setups or compare with someone who uses a "meta" setup that uses the same weapon as you. I have a hard time imagining you using "all defensive skill" versus a full fatalis set and still catching up comfortably
You dont get the most optimal gear at MR5 either, so what are you trying to say here? That is not to mention the "real" game actually starts after the credit which you use as a breakpoint for your challenge
Judging from the Steam achievements, half of the players never get to get to see the end credits because they get bitch-slapped by Barioth, or anything in Iceborne, get frustrated and quit. I also keep hearing that Iceborne is a "huge difficulty spike", and wanted to check if it's true if you are properly prepared for each main quest. Obviously, Fatalis armor is better than any other set defensively, and better than most offensively.
Yes, because the MH franchise has always been niche, it might be less niche now due to the push for westernization in World but it's still not a game for everyone. And yes the Master Rank (or formerly G Rank) has always been harder than the base game because that's the point. People also quit back in 3U,4U or FU, no one uses that as a talking point my guy. I use Fatalis armor as an example because every end game player will surely have it due to the ease of access from modern technology, this isn't the FU days where owning a fatalis set is a rare sight anymore
>it's still not a game for everyone
It can't be for more people if we stopped gatekeeping what is "efficient". If I could faceroll Iceborne to Fatalis in a defensive set while drinking beer, new players deserve a chance too.
I mean, you can say "it's not a game for you", or you can say "slap all those recovery skills on your armor and let's see what happens, champ". Which one makes you sound less of a salty gatekeeper?
Bro, the hell you mean gatekeeping? They quit on their own, nobody told them to quit, are you claiming that advocating for efficient play is gatekeeping? You naturally get hit less and less as you get better and that means your defensive skills becomes less and less valuable, it's the natural progression of EVERY GAME that utilized skill based progression. Everyone can improve and play at "veteran" level, as long as they willing to put their time and determination into it, it's the core philosophy of MH my guy, wtf you mean it's gatekeeping? People who just frowns and give up don't exactly jams well with the hardcore aspects of MH anyway, why are you grand standing for people who are not willing to put in the effort?
They quit because everyone points them at suicidal meta "progression" builds they are clearly not ready for. It's like breaking someone's legs and telling them to run a marathon to "build character" and "weed out the weak" instead of letting them have fun while progressing.
I still stand by that if you're running an affinity build, you do not *need* to go to 100%. Maybe 75% minimum to comfortably crit, which is pretty to reach imo, but not 100%.
I ran a 100% crit build and an 80% crit build in MHGU, and a 75% crit build in Sunbreak. There's almost virtually no difference in performance other than you might not crit *sometimes*.
Build around the weapons *you* want to use, not what people say you should use.
Edit: For clarification, my 100% affinity build wasn't even meta; it was just the Boltreaver armor set, the Boltreaver IG, and Grancathar.
That's the spirit. There's no right or wrong way to play as long as you're enjoying it. I personally love mixing hyper defence with offense on my GS builds. Going full damage is fun, but the feeling of "hit me as much as you want, I don't care" is marvelous
The gap in damage between world meta sets and non meta sets is not that large. (Relative to rise). You can definitely get away with off meta or non meta sets as long as your weapon choice is up to snuff and you are a good pilot. World has definitely a heavier emphasis of playing good rather than having good armor/damage skills cuz the cumulative boosts arent as cracked in rise. Ie the difference between using impact phial vs element phial charge blade is astronomical (1k 5 phial saeds vs 5k 5 phial saeds).
Attack up 4-> 12 attack + 5% affinity
Agitator 7-> 28 attack + 15% affinity
Crit boost + wex + crit eye -> ×1.4 damage to cutting + at least 70 effective affinity
Augments-> +17 attack or +14 element
Ofc you toss in element boost and ECU via kjarr weapons and weapon specific skills, but in the 'raw meta' you can forego those depending entirely on weapons.
Basically
->(base attack +57 attack) × (1 + 0.4 * 0.7)
Say you are running fatty weapons + fatty armor
340 is your true raw (non meta)
508 is your boosted raw (meta)
Lets say the hitzone is 45 and your motion value is 50. Sharpness is purple so 1.39 for both
340 * 0.45 * 0.5 * 1.39 = 106 damage
508 * 0.45 * 0.5 * 1.39 = 158 damage
TLDR A 52 point damage boost per motion for following the meta. (Pending weapon multipliers, hitzone and motion ofc).
Surely not as significant as a difference of 4k damage between raw (impact) and element.
This so very much. The thing with meta sets is that to use them effectively you have you already be quite effective yourself. They trade in comfort for maximum damage but if you're already struggling against roars, tremors, status effects and whatnot, meta sets aren't going to help you there. You build a set to suit yourself is how I always argue and teach my hunters.
Recently my friends and I did a challenge run where quests were one and done, essentially making it so we can only hunt a monster once or twice per rank, no expeditions, no farming, blah blah blah. Long story short, most of the best armor sets and weapons were locked out from lack of materials and decorations. We beat Shara, and wanted to see how far we can get with our restrictions. We still managed to get to and beat Fatalis, though just barely with severely underpowered gear, only two of us had Ala weapons, I was using Frostfang of all things. You don't need Fata gear to kill fata, you just need to come prepared.
Build around how you want to play and what works for you, you'll find your time hunting to be a lot more enjoyable if you used the crafting system to your benefit instead of listening to others of what the "best" stuff are.
I think defensive skills are very much viable in the first playthrough. Or any playthrough that the goal is to have comfy hunt instead of time record chasing.
What they said about prioritizing DPS skills make sense IF their skill level is at a point where they don't need to worry about survival. But the frank truth is that most players don't play at that level.
Eh, if works for you do it. Player skill will nearly always trump armor skills. Attack 7 won't do you jack shit if you can't hit the monster and defense 7 won't help if you keep rushing in thinking you'll tank the hit.
For example, I don't run dodge window because I don't rely on i-frames to avoid hits. I place in areas that I can clearly see the attack coming and move before I need to i-frame
Meta sets are great ***if*** the players have the skill to maximize their benefits.
Obviously, **most** non-speedrunner players do not have that level of dedication/skill (nor should they be expected to).
One old school self-styled "meta" snob was incredibly dismissive of anyone who didn't build out for MAX DEEPS, often spending ten minutes or more min-maxing his sets while the rest of us waited for him in the lobby.
He then proceeded to consistently and *mysteriously* cart more frequently than the rest of us **combined**. Curious how that works out.
It always appeared wild to me how some people claim some weapons, armor or the entire game becomes unplayable because someone lacks 2 points in average DPS
My goal is to have fun and relaxing gameplay experience and not the ability to roflstomp any given Monster within minutes and be done with all content in the smallest imaginable frame of time
Calling the Game unenjoyable Just because hunts may take 5 Minutes longer because you don't use a brainless Copy Paste 100% affinity build from the Internet is simply stupid.
I'm forever going to use defense boost and elemental resistance over any offensive Skill because i don't like being on fire and no amount of downvotes will stop me. I still beat the whole Game solo and dwell on my mushroomancer and val hazak set bonus
In wilds i will 100% Go for all the utility skills and blatantly ignore offensive Internet Meta builds and i will still have fun and Beat it solo just like i did with mhw and mhr
Hell yeah. I definitely try to run as much defense and divine blessing as possible. And recovery up if I can slot it in. The less frequently I need to heal because I have enough defense to take more hits than the full affinity full attack builds gets me faster runs if I am going in blind on a new monster. Not everyone has to build like a speedrunner.
Recovery Speed is super underrated skill if you know how to use it. I knew it already, but being able to tank Legiana and Rathalos on MR1 is something else.
I also have my Palico bring all the healing gadgets. That way I can just focus on the monster. The only time I bring DPS Palicoes is when I got Hunting Horn and uber buff that little cat into a little whirlwind of blades or bonks.
Seeing the Divine Blessing proc as the monster uses its strongest attack and the HP bar doesn't even move past 25% dmg is satisfying.
>I've been told that if you don't have 100% affinity, your hunts will last for 40 minutes, you will do no damage, etc.
> And guess what, only 4 monsters (Glavenus, Velkhana, Blackveil and Namielle) took me more than 15 minutes
They are obviously exaggerating, but 15 minutes is what they are talking about. If you follow the meta builds, there isn't a single monster that should be taking you more than 10 minutes, and most are done around 8. My end game farming runs are never more than 10 minutes including loading in and out of quests.
So, yeah, you can beat them in less than 40 minutes. But 15 minutes IS considered slow. The point is defensive stats don't matter if you don't get hit, and dodging/blocking is more than enough to do that. They also can't hit you if you're dead, so killing them faster is the best form of defense.
I'm not sure what the point of this post is? You proved them right by doing quests slowly because you focused on defense over offense? I mean, yeah, that's what happens.
>They are obviously exaggerating, but 15 minutes is what they are talking about.
What percent of story Velkhana hunts is faster than 15 mins, or better 10? If it's more than 20%, then I'll admit defeat.
If you are doing a fresh playthrough you can't even make a meta build by story velkana unless you endlessly grind decos and even then you don't have the right armor. You literally just use whatever you have/can craft to beat the story before you grind out your actual good set.
Meta in MH never really existed.
MH is a very open franchise to experiment with builds and there have been many moments when defensive builds just worked much better for me, like with Rise's endgame monsters.
One defect that I see in MHW that people insist is fun are the DPS check mechanics and races against time (Fatalis).
I think this is such a gross design flaw on Capcom's part in making monsters like Fatalis have such a short mission time.
I really wish more people shared your mentality, but unfortunately the growth in the MonHun community only served to bring in more people with the DPS MetaPlayer mentality
>I think this is such a gross design flaw on Capcom's part in making monsters like Fatalis have such a short mission time.
It's literally just the last 2 fights of the post game. These fights should be too difficult for most players. You shouldn't be able to lame them out.
I came out the other end of these fights a way better player who had a much better understanding of how to punish.
Well that's a blatant exaggeration. Meta has always existed in MH games. Metas exist in EVERY game, even farming sims. No game out there is perfectly balanced between all combat/gameplay options, therefore you will always have a Meta tactic to "win" the game (be it through DPS, skill, cheese, tank etc).
Being open to experimentation and having a Meta are not mutually exclusive concepts.
PoE is probably the most open to experimentation game out there in terms of how you can kit out your character, yet it also has some of the worst cases of Meta imbalance.
Dude, I think you took my comment too literally. I didn't need to do all this analysis to reach a somewhat obvious conclusion.
What I meant to say was simply that MonHun's Meta was never a criterion to define victory or defeat, after all the very concept of goal concerns the MOST EFFECTIVE tactic and not just tactics.
The ultimate objective of the quest is to kill the Monster, so in MH the meta only concerns the fastest tactic and often not necessarily the most effective. Because not everyone plays the same.
Don't worry, follow what works for you and be happy, there's no need to be offended.
The fastest tactic IS the most effective tactic in MH, that's the entire point of the Meta in MH. If I kill a monster 30s faster, it means I was more effective at killing it and, inherently, faster. You can't divorce speed from effectiveness, they are inherently linked in action games. If you want to quantify it, Quest Complete / Hour, Kills / Hour etc
What you're talking about is personal application of Meta tactics. Yes, I'm not good enough to never get hit and therefore never use Adrenaline or Heroics builds, but I can't deny they are more effective/faster in the hands of skilled players. Yet those aren't considered "meta" builds because Meta usually involves a general approximation of player skill and a loadout that gets you the most bang for your buck, it doesn't apply to each individuals' skill level.
Alright now consider the scenario where you can only complete a quest half the time with a certain set but when you do complete it, it’s 30 seconds faster than this other set where you have never failed the quest with. Is it still more effective with the faster set?
That's a stupid hypothetical because it assumes failure on the individual's part.
Please learn the difference between general Meta and individual Mets.
3 levels of vitality and a lifesteal augment and I can play like a retard and still run all of the "meta" skills.
Before access to augments you say? It doesn't matter what you build in the slightest. Anything before Sharah is whatever.
Bro I got walled by Barioth. You know how I beat him? Stopped caring about the whole "only hit weakspots" and played like a retard. He went down in 15 minutes
I find that the trick to Barioth is literally just surviving the first few minutes, as soon as a wing breaks he goes from "absolutely maddening" to just another "winged wyvern".
The single best thing you can do to maximize your DPS is to learn your weapon and mechanics inside out. Skills/perks I've always seen as complimentary.
I think a better comparison would be to do some hunts against the same monster with a highly defensive set up vs a highly offensive one. Just doing those times you mentioned with a defensive set up may just make you an excellent hunter.
It's a pity there are people who don't offer constructive criticism and get abusive instead. I think there are other people though are offering input to say things like 'this is a better approach as you'll finish the hunt sooner'. If that's correct technically it is a valid point, as long as it's consistent. Heroics for example is the extreme case where it will be faster but how many attempts before you get that good run. On average it's not better in that case.
In my opinion, generally speaking, defense boost in end game achieves very little and takes up space in the build for better skills that make the hunt faster.
I personally like running dmg sets cause it forces me to learn monster animations. They put so much into the creatures and I gets my heart racing I die in 2-3 hits xD
I wish 2-years-ago me was you. I hardcore followed meta builds for Rise/Sunbreak to maximize damage. I was a pretty good player too, so I was able to make them work, but they prioritize being able to dodge every attack and be on the offensive 24/7. Adding some defensive skills probably would’ve saved me a few hunts that I wouldn’t have had to redo.
I’m thinking about getting back into MH after taking almost like a year or so break (haven’t played since right before Velkhana got added to SB) with either WorldBorne or RiseBreak, whichever has a better LR experience/pace atp.
As a Gunlancer, throwing meta and "what is the absolute best way to play this or that shelling style" to the wind has helped me sooo much through the years.
Welcome to the free side.
Ah, there it is, the absolutely liberating and relaxing feeling of ignoring and shrugging off the monster's crowd control with the right skills. It frees up some mental focus nicely.
I believe in a balance between damage and comfort. I try to get all the damage skills I need, but I never play without Stun Resistance. And in Iceborne specifically, I also aim for Free Meal and Evade Window.
That's what I always do. I tried using meta builds and it always got me killed since I'm not a god gamer. Now I do a multi step priority system for my armor skills.
1. I plug in stuff that a weapon should never be played without without(bow charge plus, capacity boost, artillery, crit element set bonus, etc.)
2. I go for the most cost efficient DPS skills, mainly 3 points WEX, 1 point in Crit boost.
3. I go for the most cost efficient Defensive skills, 3 points in Health boost, 3 points stun res, resuscitate, etc.
4. I fill out comfort skills for the weapon in question, like Constitution for Bow, focus for CB, spread/power shots, Razor sharp etc.
5. I then fill out whatever extra dps skills I can. Crit Eye, Elemental attacks, etc.
Since this is for before you get completely sorted out with Decos and Fatty gear, I pretty much never run attack boost and 90% of the time half of the skills in point 5 don't make it in. I've yet to have issues with quests taking too long outside of me just not being able to hit the monster enough.
That's awesome. Yeah, as much as I use meta or close to meta sets, it doesn't matter, the point is to have fun. Learning from my terrible at times play, having 100% crit with max attack boost and WEX doesn't matter when you whiff. So keep doing you, as long as the monster is hunted, that's all that matters.
I mean, if there are people who can solo Fatalis with literally no armor then yeah, of course you can hunt with a fully defensive set if you're good enough.
I myself do like slotting in both offense and defense, but power to you man
Tbh I can see why people run meta builds but if you are a average monster hunter I don't see the problem running defensive skills and if you want later on you can remove them as you get more comfortable with your weapon but I do agree that I have more fun with defensive skills and attack skills as a mix. I can normally get full attack, agitator, WEX, And Crit boost and at least 5 crit eye minimum(depending on the set for the weapon as I might drop some for guard etc. As I dont have max decos), with Divine blessing 5 in world. And in rise I can get full attack, full Crit eye, Full WEX, and Full Crit boost with 3 Divine blessing, 3 Embolden, Full Defense Boost(optional based on set and weapon comfortability), and Full Frost Craft and it is comfortable and I still hit a over 4k Damage wake up with LS without full weapon upgrades (attack up via crafting). So you do you. I'm not gonna get into times etc because ya in rise if I had full agitator I could do more damage or other damage skills or in world if I dropped some guard off of my charge blade build then ya I could have more crit eye(but that's a lack of decos on my part I have had bad luck almost 1000 hours in plus I can fit in other stuff like artillery etc for the playstyle). But most of my solo hunts don't take longer than 10 minutes if that which is pretty good and that is just a rough number. Do what feels best and I know I could rock no Divine blessing but I do it for me because I like the way it feels. I have done play through without it in Tri, 4U, and Generations with out it before but imo do you but I don't know if it's is faster it could be that you can tank more hits without healing leaving more damage openings for you so your normal 20(what a newish player would get roughy) minute time goes down to 12 minutes because you are more confident but I think it's a mixed bag when it comes to meta. Because meta is meta because people have hundreds of hours fighting a monster and the use the patterns to get max damage from these sets with little to no damage. Meta is meta for a reason but having defense skills as a new or casual hunter I see no problem with. Tbh I can still get 5-8 minute runs with a defense set if it is a monster I know really well so it is a mix of things (if its a arena, if the script goes well, if I get good hits and counters etc.) but don't let defense skills keep you from learning(especially in early game). Use the defense skills as a way to see oh that attack hit me next time I should roll or counter here etc. If you use defense skills as a training wheel that you can choose to remove if you want you won't be a bad player and you may notice even better times with your defensive set. I just think that if your still learning with these skills then don't worry about max damage etc. You can still build good sets in your games with both attack and defense skills and just work on your game play and you will be fine.
This approach can indeed work... unless you're speaking about Sunbreak's Anomalies. Pure defensive builds will just not cut it against monsters whose HP are almost 2 times that of a Fatalis in Iceborne. In that case, using a much more offensive build IS REQUIRED just so hunts don't drag on and on. I would know, because I tried to do it. Running things like Defiance, Divine Blessing, Guard 5 and Guard Up 3, etc.
The monster would simply not die because I couldn't damage it enough.
Most people forget that meta is a theorical metric to achieve and not a set in stone guideline.
Also, not having QoL skills and dying hurts the run more than not killing in record time. Dead hunters deal no damage, after all.
I'm really trying not to use meta sets in any games but Sunbreak is gonna be tricky. Using the best weapons but not the best armor.
In the earlier games it's easier just to use whatever feels right. Any armor set, any weapon.
Not carting is a massive DPS increase.
Also, skills like partbreaker, mushroomancer, and power prolonger tend to be unused in favor of wex, attack boost, etc. Damage boosters certainly have a place, but unless youre trying to minmax damage and hunt times as a speedrunner, then theyre really not as important as people make them seem
The game can be cleared without all meta skill the fights are just gonna take longer that’s it that’s what I loved about monster hunter plus if you have trouble call your friend and that’s it
I love the big dammy number builds as much as the next guy and it’s definitely very rewarding to get to the point where you can actually dish out high DPS with those glass cannon builds without carting.
BUT man the peace of mind of just going full defensive is so nice. Eat a fireball from Fatalis? 50% hp left at minimum. God bless
I just squeeze in divine protection on most of my builds and wear element resistant armor that's specified for the hunt.
Those usually take priority after the dmg buffs and weapon type I'm using
I follow the logic:"If it works, use it."
Meta or not, the important thing is that you make it. Yes, monsters like Alatreon need a certain set of abilities, but thinking about it, most of the times you can use whatever and make it anyway.
Some people may be upset, but in the end, use what you like the most and have fun: can't under people that still argue about what someone uses in terms of abilities.
Well the meta builds aren't for new players they are for when you are experienced and know the monsters. In these cases defense is a useless stat. If you don't get hit you don't need defense it's more about what is best if you are good not what works. It's a skill based game you can kill the monsters naked if you are good enough. So it's like yeah ok cool you made a build that is obviously weak offensively because you aren't good enough to play an offensive meta build. Congrats I guess lol
Bro, meta is boring as hell. I would do fun builds.
Full guard and offensive guard lance with challenger mantle.
Evade distance max with Bow and Dual Blades.
Poison and sleep builds.
Just do whatever you want. Try-hards aren't the people you should listen to. Listen to your own play-style and have fun!
Meta builds are so lazy and boring, I get that you get the good feeling of seeing high numbers but doing quests in style...priceless.
I'd be interested in seeing some of your AR300, and Special Investigation hunts in Sunbreak. And what you're building. I mean I've run only non-augmented armor para IG to AR230ish on PS in the last few weeks. But the damage is an issue. I'm doing 6 minute Seethings instead of sub 3ing it with DB like I did during my PC grind.
Edit: tbh you can run literally anything till post game. I ran black belt armor till MR4.
Edit 2: in post-game Sunbreak it's not like it's impossible to run all defense skills just all the post-game mechanics reward you for doing lots of damage. It's so much easier and faster to just do tons of damage. If you want to stack defensive skills go for it, but they're not very effective, make gunts take forever, and honestly is playing on hard mode. But that's just specific to late post-game in Sunbreak, and the monsters scaled to that (some event quest, hazards, etc). Also specific to Sunbreak endgame not sure how it is in other MH games. I know Sunbreak is notorious for crazy monsters scaling in it's endgame. Specifically with people complaining about HP pools and damage all the time. Maybe that's not the case in the other games.
The fact that you have people regularly commenting and getting upset with you not using meta strats is honestly depressing and why I honestly want to distance myself from the community
I've seen a comment under a slinger-only gimmick run saying "it's not efficient, and you will never get better like this". Fun is an alien concept for some. I guess, I should have made a disclaimer that this is a gimmick run too, but oh well, it's too late.
I see Meta as a framework for builds. I know is the maximum damage possible and I work from that to replace skills that I think is better for survivability or comfort. Because of this I like more builders that explain the role and uses of each skills in the build, this way you know what are the priorities and bigger impact on DPS.
That's kind of how MH is meant to be played. Except for when Iceborne got really hungry with power creep in the last two TUs
Oh, true, DPS check mechanics are not good in MH
That's what people forget a lot of times. Your offensive skills mean jack crap if you cart and fail the quest. Having a defensive set is really a lot less stressful in that regard.
Defensive skills mean nothing if I don't get hit, lol.
Now do it in real life
Like, in reality or the game... your request is kinda vague lol.
He means go fight every single monster in the game and don't get hit once.. Not even the best of the best players in the world can do that outside of the few monsters they try to WR speedrun. If you focus on avoiding damage at all times from all sources, then your damage will likely be in the shits. It's just not realistic that you'll never get hit, ever, while playing a game like this - especially after finishing the story, when the grinding is just getting started and you'll have to hunt each monsters dozens to hundreds of times. For 99.9% of the playerbase, giving up some of the weaker DPS skills like Attack Boost (or really anything that's not the trinity of WEX/CB/CE and maybe some Agitator) for Health Boost, Divine Blessing, Evade Window/Extender, Blight Res (or the specific elemental resistance for the monster you're targeting, since 20+ resistance to an element gives you immunity to the corresponding blight), etc. will drastically improve their hunt times and total carts FAR more than the extra 5% theoretical damage boost would have. All the time spent healing, carting, running around, re-eating/buffing, and generally being tilted amounts to significantly more time for the overwhelming majority of players than a tiny bit of possible damage can make up for. People act like you have to give up every single bit of damage to get one rank of Defense Boost (joke, it's a bad skill in the late-endgame) lol.
Bro, you're yapping about stuff I already know. I was just doing some light ribbing. I don't care what builds people play. Cause at the end of the day your skill determines how you make your builds.
I’ve always said this, I find it really silly when people go on and on about meta this and meta that clutch claw blah blah blah. But exactly as you have proven, meta sets don’t matter nearly as much as just simply playing better.
in all fairness like, some of the complaints about the claw is certainly tenderizing and hitzone nerfs, but also a lot are about like, wow is the addon garbage on some weapons! it feels great on some, like hammer or lance, it's laughable on a lot of other weapons
Also the claw used to be way, way, **way** worse, and the tenderiser deco didn’t exist iirc. Many of the complaints began in the dark ages and are now parroted by people who don’t understand that you need an actual opening to use the claw.
the problem with what you said is that like openings should be like trips or flashes to hit the monster, not to use your precious downtime to normalize the damage the monster took in low and high rank because they arbitrary decided hitzones should be lower in master rank
That’s a fair point and my perspective is probably very biased just from playing the game long enough, but in my experience keeping a monster tenderised is really simple once stop trying to force it. Also aside from a few endgame fights the game is quite lenient with tenderising opportunities, but I do understand that it can get tiring. I’d compare it to flying states on some monsters. It can be a fun mechanic that switches things up and makes you reconsider your approach, but it can also be an unfun slog that destroys any momentum you had built up.
the inherent issue is that world was not designed from the base with the thing in mind. it was added as the g rank tool, and usually when they add stuff they rebalance in a different entry. it's also why wirebugs are fine in Rise, because the game was designed from the get-go with them in mind, not something they patched half way through the game's progression. world has you kinda go from oh the claw is cute i guess to needing to actively use it in a hunt, and like i said above, it just does not mesh well with some weapons. SnS, DBs, Lance, Hammer? That shit fucking rules, man. Meanwhile it sucks donkey dick on like longsword or Greatsword. it feels like an active detriment
Cc works great with gs I have no idea what you mean..you can use the clutch burst to stun with slinger ammo and immediately follow into a tcs if you set your self up.
the claw additional move is great, tenderizing with the GS feels like ass
Oh yeah haha I agree.
I don’t know, the claw at least follows the rules of mh combat, while wirebugs said “step aside” and rewrote half of the game. I much prefer to deal with tenderising from time to time than having a gimped dodge, aggressive tracking, long attack strings, enormous air hitboxes and prevalent aoe. I think they lead themselves into a corner with how simple worlds slinger was and so they needed to iterate on it somehow. Claw wasn’t perfect and even the devs realised that given what we have in Wilds (which btw looks like a great system, leaving all of the fun parts of weak points without the tedium of the claw itself), but it wasn’t the end of the world.
? Rules of MH are completely arbitrary and change every game, so that's not a good point to make. Like every entry plays differently It just sounds like you didnt like rise, much like i hated the clutch claw. It doesnt need to be more complicated than that
Rules as in the games went from proactive play to reactive, although the same thing happened with world. All I’m saying is that the cc is much less invasive it seems. Not sure if we got anywhere, but it was an interesting discussion nonetheless.
I find tenderizing and wall banging specifically wayyyy more invasive to the combat experience than wirebugs could ever be
"Rules as in the games went from proactive play to reactive" I mean a lot of weapons were also very reactive in old gen, especially in MHU4 and MHGEN which added more options to force an opening.
If he is building a full defense build he is not playing better but likely worse lol. The meta builds often don't have any defense skills because if you are skilled you rarely get hit so it's just dead skills. Imagine thinking that building full tank because you are getting slapped by every attack is skillful play.
You misunderstood my comment, I’m saying that someone running all the offensive skills will still have a similar time to someone who’s just good at the game.
Well yeah player skill > all. don't matter what your build is if you are bad. However meta builds are for people who are good with their little to no defense the dps increase is significant.
You're not wrong but your comment are still kinda pointless smh. You aren't going to learn any shit for keep dying to boss one mechanic, especially those unfair one shoot attack, it will only make the fight obnoxious and rage quit for most. Survive long enough is the actual way to let you learn all those boss movement and git gud. Plus unless you're really skillful and play the game perfectly the dps increase IS NOT significant, you'll just play the game very cautiously, wasting bunch of time predicting and dodging the wrong boss move, to the point that brute force actually save you move time Still I'm not saying that it's bad to be good at game but just let casual player BUILD THE WAY THEY WANT, keep your mouth shut and let people ENJOY THE GAME THE WAY THEY WANT. Does git gud worth it if you're just gonna keep shouting at screen and wreck your keyboard every 5 minutes? IT'S A GAME DUH, ENJOY IT
Casual players already play the way they want I don't understand that statement it's a game where noone even talks to you do whatever you like.
I'm on team use whatever skills lead you to a successful hunt. If that's defense, so be it. Crit? Sure thing. Healing? If it works it works! Some of the most fun I've had in Monster Hunter (started at the tail of second Gen) is building gimmicky ass paralysis sets and pushing them as far as they go. Meta is just a suggestion at the end of the day.
I mean, half the battle with monsters is timing and positioning, and a blind playthrough will pretty much always lose out to a run with someone who knows the monsters/weapons ahead of time and can just speed bag stuff with knowledge. Yeah, the crit guy is doing 40% more damage per hit with 100% crit, but if your landing twice as many hits as him because you know the fight and he doesn't, your gonna out DPS them. It's apples and oranges. That said, play how you want, but I don't think this is proof of anything other than the fact that your a solid player, with or without offensive skills. Gg on your challenge as well, sounds like you had a good time.
On top of this, experience of getting through the missions is also much faster. 1st playthrough of the Anjanath hunt, you spawn at camp 1 and run around like a headless chicken until you either find some tracks or luck into the cutscenes area itself. Playthrough 2, you've already unlocked all or most of the camps, you spawn in at camp 11 and take the little jump and the cutscenes has activated 5 seconds into the mission. Now repeat this with nearly every single story mission.
True. Also, weapons play a part as well, just because someone doesn't have a ton of offensive skills doesn't mean they haven't speedran the mats for the best weapons at their point in the story. And the difference between some of the early MR options, having decent raw and sharpness can mean the world.
Yeah, I sucked during my first playthrough, but I also compared it to other people, for whom it wasn't the first time, either, and who have plenty of heads on the wall: AT Velk, Fatalis, Alatreon, etc. My clear times were 1/3 faster on the average. I would have been fine with me being proportionally slower, but I was really surprised at being disproportionally faster.
I mean, I run full meta if that gives you any idea of my personal playstyle, and my times for monsters generally clocks in around the 5-8 minute mark on average for the general monster. Alatreon averages 7-8 minutes and fatalis the full 15 cause I suck at him lmao. What are the sorts of times your seeing on some of the endgame stuff?
6-9 for Tier 2, around 10 for elders, 14 for MR KT. I don't solo Alatreon and Fatalis because I don't want to. Not very representative, because it's difficult to avoid damage skills in a Fatalis set, but I've done tempered Frostfang in about 9 minutes during my first playthrough without any damage skills and augments, with a Raging Brachy weapon, if this helps.
So basically you have no real kills to backup your claim lol. How can you say you are 1/3 faster and then say you cant solo fatalis or alatreon. 14 min KT is also slow like 50% slower than any meta builds which do it in like 8ish mins
>14 min KT is also slow like 50% slower than any meta builds which do it in like 8ish mins Source?
YouTube any weap9n KT MR kill. GS for example is done in 8 Mins with no mantle no tender or wall bang which obviously would make it even faster.
Youtube is not representative of "the average". People usually upload stuff to YouTube to brag about something. You would need access to Capcom servers to determine the average.
Ya YouTube has 3 and 4 minute KT kills lol it isn't a stretch to think anyone good enough to actually play with a meta set can do it in dbl the time. 14 mins is slow you can be generous and say it's only 4 minutes slower than a normal 10 minute kill but that's still 40% slower. Defense skills are great to learn the game but are absolutely useless when you are good as they do nothing since the goal is to not get hit. You can have exceptions like a flinch free earplugs divine blessings combo with a lifesteal weapon to essentially trade with monsters but that's a 1 off niche.
>normal 10 minute kill Again, I would need an unbiased source for that.
Well, I will still most certainly advise the majority of people against doing that, but for completely different reasons than you'd expect. I have no issues with people running very little to no offensive skills, even if I do secretly judge you for it, and I will not heckle people for using a ton of defensive skills either (they exist for a fucking reason: to be used). The problem I see with folks running mostly defensive skills, is that they *play* too defensively; they back off too much, scarcely attack or try to find openings, and panic in dangerous situations which just leads to them backing off even more. They don't deal no damage because they lack meta skills, they deal no damage because they aren't attacking or trying to exploit openings—it's a mindset thing, and because they lack damage skills, they aren't doing much when they *do* finally attack. TL;DR: most players that use a lot of defensive skills just don't try to attack or learn openings, which leads to them failing or hardly contributing to difficult and/or demanding hunts. It makes sense when you think about it: someone who prioritises defense over everything is going to be less focused on finding opportunities to deal damage.
One can see this phenomenon especially with lance. The weapon itself (played optimally) has an insanely aggressive playstyle as it requires constant uptime to make up for its low damage. Lance's defensive capabilities serve to support and enhance its offense; one is able to be so aggro precisely because they can negate a monster's retaliation. A seemingly significant portion of hunters pick up the weapon to "turtle" though. There's nothing wrong with this as one can play however they wish, but that playstyle, paired with the tendency to stack defensive skills as well as the weapon's innately lower damage, can cause much longer hunts. This also exacerbates lance's reputation of being weak and "turtlely." Unless one is boasting an above average level of skill, lance with meta builds should be competitive with other weapons for the most part.
My guy, they don't literally mean your hunt will take 40 mins, it's obviously hyperbole. Considering the average hunt time is 6-8 mins with optimal (or "meta" as you want to classify it as) then your 15 mins average more than double the optimal time, now if you enjoy playing with full defensive skills then be my guest, but don't try to claim that it doesn't make a big different because it does. Otherwise people would not have bother to practice/theory crafting builds if it wasn't the case. For me i enjoy playing optimally because it is the most obvious sign of you improving (which is the entire point of the game), playing optimally condition you into playing better as a by product and that's why people advocate for it. After all why would you want defensive skills if you don't get hit in the first place? Speed is key in this game, both offline and online, in offline it helps you farm for stuffs you want faster, in online it cut downs on hunt time preventing mistakes to take place from both you and your teammates, there is literally no downside to it. If you wanna gauge how impactful you are on a hunt, get a dps meter mod and jump into a hunt with someone who plays optimally and you will see the different.
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>15 mins average I didn't say "15 mins average", I said "15 mins maximum during the main story", mostly elders, usually 10-13. I'm yet to see 6-8 minute main story quests done casually.
Okay, let's assume you're telling the truth, now use an optimal setup and do those quests again, see how much time you cut down, or better yet like i said, slap on a dps meter mod and compare your own dps between setups or compare with someone who uses a "meta" setup that uses the same weapon as you. I have a hard time imagining you using "all defensive skill" versus a full fatalis set and still catching up comfortably
How do you get a full Fatalis set on MR5?
You dont get the most optimal gear at MR5 either, so what are you trying to say here? That is not to mention the "real" game actually starts after the credit which you use as a breakpoint for your challenge
Judging from the Steam achievements, half of the players never get to get to see the end credits because they get bitch-slapped by Barioth, or anything in Iceborne, get frustrated and quit. I also keep hearing that Iceborne is a "huge difficulty spike", and wanted to check if it's true if you are properly prepared for each main quest. Obviously, Fatalis armor is better than any other set defensively, and better than most offensively.
Yes, because the MH franchise has always been niche, it might be less niche now due to the push for westernization in World but it's still not a game for everyone. And yes the Master Rank (or formerly G Rank) has always been harder than the base game because that's the point. People also quit back in 3U,4U or FU, no one uses that as a talking point my guy. I use Fatalis armor as an example because every end game player will surely have it due to the ease of access from modern technology, this isn't the FU days where owning a fatalis set is a rare sight anymore
>it's still not a game for everyone It can't be for more people if we stopped gatekeeping what is "efficient". If I could faceroll Iceborne to Fatalis in a defensive set while drinking beer, new players deserve a chance too. I mean, you can say "it's not a game for you", or you can say "slap all those recovery skills on your armor and let's see what happens, champ". Which one makes you sound less of a salty gatekeeper?
Bro, the hell you mean gatekeeping? They quit on their own, nobody told them to quit, are you claiming that advocating for efficient play is gatekeeping? You naturally get hit less and less as you get better and that means your defensive skills becomes less and less valuable, it's the natural progression of EVERY GAME that utilized skill based progression. Everyone can improve and play at "veteran" level, as long as they willing to put their time and determination into it, it's the core philosophy of MH my guy, wtf you mean it's gatekeeping? People who just frowns and give up don't exactly jams well with the hardcore aspects of MH anyway, why are you grand standing for people who are not willing to put in the effort?
They quit because everyone points them at suicidal meta "progression" builds they are clearly not ready for. It's like breaking someone's legs and telling them to run a marathon to "build character" and "weed out the weak" instead of letting them have fun while progressing.
I still stand by that if you're running an affinity build, you do not *need* to go to 100%. Maybe 75% minimum to comfortably crit, which is pretty to reach imo, but not 100%. I ran a 100% crit build and an 80% crit build in MHGU, and a 75% crit build in Sunbreak. There's almost virtually no difference in performance other than you might not crit *sometimes*. Build around the weapons *you* want to use, not what people say you should use. Edit: For clarification, my 100% affinity build wasn't even meta; it was just the Boltreaver armor set, the Boltreaver IG, and Grancathar.
That's the spirit. There's no right or wrong way to play as long as you're enjoying it. I personally love mixing hyper defence with offense on my GS builds. Going full damage is fun, but the feeling of "hit me as much as you want, I don't care" is marvelous
The gap in damage between world meta sets and non meta sets is not that large. (Relative to rise). You can definitely get away with off meta or non meta sets as long as your weapon choice is up to snuff and you are a good pilot. World has definitely a heavier emphasis of playing good rather than having good armor/damage skills cuz the cumulative boosts arent as cracked in rise. Ie the difference between using impact phial vs element phial charge blade is astronomical (1k 5 phial saeds vs 5k 5 phial saeds). Attack up 4-> 12 attack + 5% affinity Agitator 7-> 28 attack + 15% affinity Crit boost + wex + crit eye -> ×1.4 damage to cutting + at least 70 effective affinity Augments-> +17 attack or +14 element Ofc you toss in element boost and ECU via kjarr weapons and weapon specific skills, but in the 'raw meta' you can forego those depending entirely on weapons. Basically ->(base attack +57 attack) × (1 + 0.4 * 0.7) Say you are running fatty weapons + fatty armor 340 is your true raw (non meta) 508 is your boosted raw (meta) Lets say the hitzone is 45 and your motion value is 50. Sharpness is purple so 1.39 for both 340 * 0.45 * 0.5 * 1.39 = 106 damage 508 * 0.45 * 0.5 * 1.39 = 158 damage TLDR A 52 point damage boost per motion for following the meta. (Pending weapon multipliers, hitzone and motion ofc). Surely not as significant as a difference of 4k damage between raw (impact) and element.
Yeah I agree a 50% dmg increase isn't really that much
This so very much. The thing with meta sets is that to use them effectively you have you already be quite effective yourself. They trade in comfort for maximum damage but if you're already struggling against roars, tremors, status effects and whatnot, meta sets aren't going to help you there. You build a set to suit yourself is how I always argue and teach my hunters. Recently my friends and I did a challenge run where quests were one and done, essentially making it so we can only hunt a monster once or twice per rank, no expeditions, no farming, blah blah blah. Long story short, most of the best armor sets and weapons were locked out from lack of materials and decorations. We beat Shara, and wanted to see how far we can get with our restrictions. We still managed to get to and beat Fatalis, though just barely with severely underpowered gear, only two of us had Ala weapons, I was using Frostfang of all things. You don't need Fata gear to kill fata, you just need to come prepared. Build around how you want to play and what works for you, you'll find your time hunting to be a lot more enjoyable if you used the crafting system to your benefit instead of listening to others of what the "best" stuff are.
I think defensive skills are very much viable in the first playthrough. Or any playthrough that the goal is to have comfy hunt instead of time record chasing. What they said about prioritizing DPS skills make sense IF their skill level is at a point where they don't need to worry about survival. But the frank truth is that most players don't play at that level.
Eh, if works for you do it. Player skill will nearly always trump armor skills. Attack 7 won't do you jack shit if you can't hit the monster and defense 7 won't help if you keep rushing in thinking you'll tank the hit.
For example, I don't run dodge window because I don't rely on i-frames to avoid hits. I place in areas that I can clearly see the attack coming and move before I need to i-frame
Leave the meta builds for the commoners. We shall be safe in our iron fortresses like kings!
Meta sets are great ***if*** the players have the skill to maximize their benefits. Obviously, **most** non-speedrunner players do not have that level of dedication/skill (nor should they be expected to). One old school self-styled "meta" snob was incredibly dismissive of anyone who didn't build out for MAX DEEPS, often spending ten minutes or more min-maxing his sets while the rest of us waited for him in the lobby. He then proceeded to consistently and *mysteriously* cart more frequently than the rest of us **combined**. Curious how that works out.
It always appeared wild to me how some people claim some weapons, armor or the entire game becomes unplayable because someone lacks 2 points in average DPS My goal is to have fun and relaxing gameplay experience and not the ability to roflstomp any given Monster within minutes and be done with all content in the smallest imaginable frame of time Calling the Game unenjoyable Just because hunts may take 5 Minutes longer because you don't use a brainless Copy Paste 100% affinity build from the Internet is simply stupid. I'm forever going to use defense boost and elemental resistance over any offensive Skill because i don't like being on fire and no amount of downvotes will stop me. I still beat the whole Game solo and dwell on my mushroomancer and val hazak set bonus In wilds i will 100% Go for all the utility skills and blatantly ignore offensive Internet Meta builds and i will still have fun and Beat it solo just like i did with mhw and mhr
Hell yeah. I definitely try to run as much defense and divine blessing as possible. And recovery up if I can slot it in. The less frequently I need to heal because I have enough defense to take more hits than the full affinity full attack builds gets me faster runs if I am going in blind on a new monster. Not everyone has to build like a speedrunner.
Recovery Speed is super underrated skill if you know how to use it. I knew it already, but being able to tank Legiana and Rathalos on MR1 is something else.
I also have my Palico bring all the healing gadgets. That way I can just focus on the monster. The only time I bring DPS Palicoes is when I got Hunting Horn and uber buff that little cat into a little whirlwind of blades or bonks. Seeing the Divine Blessing proc as the monster uses its strongest attack and the HP bar doesn't even move past 25% dmg is satisfying.
>I've been told that if you don't have 100% affinity, your hunts will last for 40 minutes, you will do no damage, etc. > And guess what, only 4 monsters (Glavenus, Velkhana, Blackveil and Namielle) took me more than 15 minutes They are obviously exaggerating, but 15 minutes is what they are talking about. If you follow the meta builds, there isn't a single monster that should be taking you more than 10 minutes, and most are done around 8. My end game farming runs are never more than 10 minutes including loading in and out of quests. So, yeah, you can beat them in less than 40 minutes. But 15 minutes IS considered slow. The point is defensive stats don't matter if you don't get hit, and dodging/blocking is more than enough to do that. They also can't hit you if you're dead, so killing them faster is the best form of defense. I'm not sure what the point of this post is? You proved them right by doing quests slowly because you focused on defense over offense? I mean, yeah, that's what happens.
>They are obviously exaggerating, but 15 minutes is what they are talking about. What percent of story Velkhana hunts is faster than 15 mins, or better 10? If it's more than 20%, then I'll admit defeat.
If you are doing a fresh playthrough you can't even make a meta build by story velkana unless you endlessly grind decos and even then you don't have the right armor. You literally just use whatever you have/can craft to beat the story before you grind out your actual good set.
Meta in MH never really existed. MH is a very open franchise to experiment with builds and there have been many moments when defensive builds just worked much better for me, like with Rise's endgame monsters. One defect that I see in MHW that people insist is fun are the DPS check mechanics and races against time (Fatalis). I think this is such a gross design flaw on Capcom's part in making monsters like Fatalis have such a short mission time. I really wish more people shared your mentality, but unfortunately the growth in the MonHun community only served to bring in more people with the DPS MetaPlayer mentality
>I think this is such a gross design flaw on Capcom's part in making monsters like Fatalis have such a short mission time. It's literally just the last 2 fights of the post game. These fights should be too difficult for most players. You shouldn't be able to lame them out. I came out the other end of these fights a way better player who had a much better understanding of how to punish.
Good for you, have Fun :)
Well that's a blatant exaggeration. Meta has always existed in MH games. Metas exist in EVERY game, even farming sims. No game out there is perfectly balanced between all combat/gameplay options, therefore you will always have a Meta tactic to "win" the game (be it through DPS, skill, cheese, tank etc). Being open to experimentation and having a Meta are not mutually exclusive concepts. PoE is probably the most open to experimentation game out there in terms of how you can kit out your character, yet it also has some of the worst cases of Meta imbalance.
I was clearly being hyperbolic when I said "There is no goal in MH", sorry if that sounded too implicit :)
Dude, I think you took my comment too literally. I didn't need to do all this analysis to reach a somewhat obvious conclusion. What I meant to say was simply that MonHun's Meta was never a criterion to define victory or defeat, after all the very concept of goal concerns the MOST EFFECTIVE tactic and not just tactics. The ultimate objective of the quest is to kill the Monster, so in MH the meta only concerns the fastest tactic and often not necessarily the most effective. Because not everyone plays the same. Don't worry, follow what works for you and be happy, there's no need to be offended.
The fastest tactic IS the most effective tactic in MH, that's the entire point of the Meta in MH. If I kill a monster 30s faster, it means I was more effective at killing it and, inherently, faster. You can't divorce speed from effectiveness, they are inherently linked in action games. If you want to quantify it, Quest Complete / Hour, Kills / Hour etc What you're talking about is personal application of Meta tactics. Yes, I'm not good enough to never get hit and therefore never use Adrenaline or Heroics builds, but I can't deny they are more effective/faster in the hands of skilled players. Yet those aren't considered "meta" builds because Meta usually involves a general approximation of player skill and a loadout that gets you the most bang for your buck, it doesn't apply to each individuals' skill level.
Alright now consider the scenario where you can only complete a quest half the time with a certain set but when you do complete it, it’s 30 seconds faster than this other set where you have never failed the quest with. Is it still more effective with the faster set?
That's a stupid hypothetical because it assumes failure on the individual's part. Please learn the difference between general Meta and individual Mets.
If you say so
3 levels of vitality and a lifesteal augment and I can play like a retard and still run all of the "meta" skills. Before access to augments you say? It doesn't matter what you build in the slightest. Anything before Sharah is whatever.
Tell this to all the people who've been walled by Barioth.
Bro I got walled by Barioth. You know how I beat him? Stopped caring about the whole "only hit weakspots" and played like a retard. He went down in 15 minutes
I find that the trick to Barioth is literally just surviving the first few minutes, as soon as a wing breaks he goes from "absolutely maddening" to just another "winged wyvern".
Viable. I support this.
The single best thing you can do to maximize your DPS is to learn your weapon and mechanics inside out. Skills/perks I've always seen as complimentary.
I've got to try this myself it sounds interesting. Anyway the point is to have fun, you sound like you're having fun, so carry on the way you like.
I've never understood people who stick to meta everything, is that not boring?? I'm playing to have fun and fight with STYLE
I think a better comparison would be to do some hunts against the same monster with a highly defensive set up vs a highly offensive one. Just doing those times you mentioned with a defensive set up may just make you an excellent hunter. It's a pity there are people who don't offer constructive criticism and get abusive instead. I think there are other people though are offering input to say things like 'this is a better approach as you'll finish the hunt sooner'. If that's correct technically it is a valid point, as long as it's consistent. Heroics for example is the extreme case where it will be faster but how many attempts before you get that good run. On average it's not better in that case. In my opinion, generally speaking, defense boost in end game achieves very little and takes up space in the build for better skills that make the hunt faster.
I personally like running dmg sets cause it forces me to learn monster animations. They put so much into the creatures and I gets my heart racing I die in 2-3 hits xD
I wish 2-years-ago me was you. I hardcore followed meta builds for Rise/Sunbreak to maximize damage. I was a pretty good player too, so I was able to make them work, but they prioritize being able to dodge every attack and be on the offensive 24/7. Adding some defensive skills probably would’ve saved me a few hunts that I wouldn’t have had to redo. I’m thinking about getting back into MH after taking almost like a year or so break (haven’t played since right before Velkhana got added to SB) with either WorldBorne or RiseBreak, whichever has a better LR experience/pace atp.
As a Gunlancer, throwing meta and "what is the absolute best way to play this or that shelling style" to the wind has helped me sooo much through the years. Welcome to the free side.
Ah, there it is, the absolutely liberating and relaxing feeling of ignoring and shrugging off the monster's crowd control with the right skills. It frees up some mental focus nicely.
balanced builts is where its at.
I believe in a balance between damage and comfort. I try to get all the damage skills I need, but I never play without Stun Resistance. And in Iceborne specifically, I also aim for Free Meal and Evade Window.
That's what I always do. I tried using meta builds and it always got me killed since I'm not a god gamer. Now I do a multi step priority system for my armor skills. 1. I plug in stuff that a weapon should never be played without without(bow charge plus, capacity boost, artillery, crit element set bonus, etc.) 2. I go for the most cost efficient DPS skills, mainly 3 points WEX, 1 point in Crit boost. 3. I go for the most cost efficient Defensive skills, 3 points in Health boost, 3 points stun res, resuscitate, etc. 4. I fill out comfort skills for the weapon in question, like Constitution for Bow, focus for CB, spread/power shots, Razor sharp etc. 5. I then fill out whatever extra dps skills I can. Crit Eye, Elemental attacks, etc. Since this is for before you get completely sorted out with Decos and Fatty gear, I pretty much never run attack boost and 90% of the time half of the skills in point 5 don't make it in. I've yet to have issues with quests taking too long outside of me just not being able to hit the monster enough.
Couldn't speak to Def boost, but every time I look at a build that doesn't include health boost 3 and some divine blessing I skip.
That's awesome. Yeah, as much as I use meta or close to meta sets, it doesn't matter, the point is to have fun. Learning from my terrible at times play, having 100% crit with max attack boost and WEX doesn't matter when you whiff. So keep doing you, as long as the monster is hunted, that's all that matters.
I mean, if there are people who can solo Fatalis with literally no armor then yeah, of course you can hunt with a fully defensive set if you're good enough. I myself do like slotting in both offense and defense, but power to you man
Tbh I can see why people run meta builds but if you are a average monster hunter I don't see the problem running defensive skills and if you want later on you can remove them as you get more comfortable with your weapon but I do agree that I have more fun with defensive skills and attack skills as a mix. I can normally get full attack, agitator, WEX, And Crit boost and at least 5 crit eye minimum(depending on the set for the weapon as I might drop some for guard etc. As I dont have max decos), with Divine blessing 5 in world. And in rise I can get full attack, full Crit eye, Full WEX, and Full Crit boost with 3 Divine blessing, 3 Embolden, Full Defense Boost(optional based on set and weapon comfortability), and Full Frost Craft and it is comfortable and I still hit a over 4k Damage wake up with LS without full weapon upgrades (attack up via crafting). So you do you. I'm not gonna get into times etc because ya in rise if I had full agitator I could do more damage or other damage skills or in world if I dropped some guard off of my charge blade build then ya I could have more crit eye(but that's a lack of decos on my part I have had bad luck almost 1000 hours in plus I can fit in other stuff like artillery etc for the playstyle). But most of my solo hunts don't take longer than 10 minutes if that which is pretty good and that is just a rough number. Do what feels best and I know I could rock no Divine blessing but I do it for me because I like the way it feels. I have done play through without it in Tri, 4U, and Generations with out it before but imo do you but I don't know if it's is faster it could be that you can tank more hits without healing leaving more damage openings for you so your normal 20(what a newish player would get roughy) minute time goes down to 12 minutes because you are more confident but I think it's a mixed bag when it comes to meta. Because meta is meta because people have hundreds of hours fighting a monster and the use the patterns to get max damage from these sets with little to no damage. Meta is meta for a reason but having defense skills as a new or casual hunter I see no problem with. Tbh I can still get 5-8 minute runs with a defense set if it is a monster I know really well so it is a mix of things (if its a arena, if the script goes well, if I get good hits and counters etc.) but don't let defense skills keep you from learning(especially in early game). Use the defense skills as a way to see oh that attack hit me next time I should roll or counter here etc. If you use defense skills as a training wheel that you can choose to remove if you want you won't be a bad player and you may notice even better times with your defensive set. I just think that if your still learning with these skills then don't worry about max damage etc. You can still build good sets in your games with both attack and defense skills and just work on your game play and you will be fine.
This approach can indeed work... unless you're speaking about Sunbreak's Anomalies. Pure defensive builds will just not cut it against monsters whose HP are almost 2 times that of a Fatalis in Iceborne. In that case, using a much more offensive build IS REQUIRED just so hunts don't drag on and on. I would know, because I tried to do it. Running things like Defiance, Divine Blessing, Guard 5 and Guard Up 3, etc. The monster would simply not die because I couldn't damage it enough.
Most people forget that meta is a theorical metric to achieve and not a set in stone guideline. Also, not having QoL skills and dying hurts the run more than not killing in record time. Dead hunters deal no damage, after all.
I'm really trying not to use meta sets in any games but Sunbreak is gonna be tricky. Using the best weapons but not the best armor. In the earlier games it's easier just to use whatever feels right. Any armor set, any weapon.
Not carting is a massive DPS increase. Also, skills like partbreaker, mushroomancer, and power prolonger tend to be unused in favor of wex, attack boost, etc. Damage boosters certainly have a place, but unless youre trying to minmax damage and hunt times as a speedrunner, then theyre really not as important as people make them seem
The game can be cleared without all meta skill the fights are just gonna take longer that’s it that’s what I loved about monster hunter plus if you have trouble call your friend and that’s it
I love the big dammy number builds as much as the next guy and it’s definitely very rewarding to get to the point where you can actually dish out high DPS with those glass cannon builds without carting. BUT man the peace of mind of just going full defensive is so nice. Eat a fireball from Fatalis? 50% hp left at minimum. God bless
Lovely, my mh4u end game build was just defensive, health and guard stats with CB. It was really fun
This gives me so much hope for my anti-current build.
I just squeeze in divine protection on most of my builds and wear element resistant armor that's specified for the hunt. Those usually take priority after the dmg buffs and weapon type I'm using
Kinda glad I stayed away from meta builds. Idk if it’s meta but I just got Tigrex armor and fell in love with using tons of consumables
I follow the logic:"If it works, use it." Meta or not, the important thing is that you make it. Yes, monsters like Alatreon need a certain set of abilities, but thinking about it, most of the times you can use whatever and make it anyway. Some people may be upset, but in the end, use what you like the most and have fun: can't under people that still argue about what someone uses in terms of abilities.
Well the meta builds aren't for new players they are for when you are experienced and know the monsters. In these cases defense is a useless stat. If you don't get hit you don't need defense it's more about what is best if you are good not what works. It's a skill based game you can kill the monsters naked if you are good enough. So it's like yeah ok cool you made a build that is obviously weak offensively because you aren't good enough to play an offensive meta build. Congrats I guess lol
Yep.
Bro, meta is boring as hell. I would do fun builds. Full guard and offensive guard lance with challenger mantle. Evade distance max with Bow and Dual Blades. Poison and sleep builds. Just do whatever you want. Try-hards aren't the people you should listen to. Listen to your own play-style and have fun! Meta builds are so lazy and boring, I get that you get the good feeling of seeing high numbers but doing quests in style...priceless.
I mean you're already familiar with those monsters lmao
I'd be interested in seeing some of your AR300, and Special Investigation hunts in Sunbreak. And what you're building. I mean I've run only non-augmented armor para IG to AR230ish on PS in the last few weeks. But the damage is an issue. I'm doing 6 minute Seethings instead of sub 3ing it with DB like I did during my PC grind. Edit: tbh you can run literally anything till post game. I ran black belt armor till MR4. Edit 2: in post-game Sunbreak it's not like it's impossible to run all defense skills just all the post-game mechanics reward you for doing lots of damage. It's so much easier and faster to just do tons of damage. If you want to stack defensive skills go for it, but they're not very effective, make gunts take forever, and honestly is playing on hard mode. But that's just specific to late post-game in Sunbreak, and the monsters scaled to that (some event quest, hazards, etc). Also specific to Sunbreak endgame not sure how it is in other MH games. I know Sunbreak is notorious for crazy monsters scaling in it's endgame. Specifically with people complaining about HP pools and damage all the time. Maybe that's not the case in the other games.