For thoses of us keeping track:
Multiple explicitely pro-Hamas rallies, including one on October 8th. Speakers like Adil Charkaoui rallying a crowd to chant for the murder of Zionists. Speakers that call to "Flood Montreal for Gaza" (referencing the Al Aqsa Flood, which is the Hamas codename for October 7th)
[Two synagogues firebombed.](https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/west-island-synagogue-jewish-community-centre-firebombed-montreal-police-say)
One community center firebombed.
MADA Charity getting its locals broken into and vandalized.
[Two](https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/israel-hamas-war-legault-government-considers-banning-protests-1.6638119) (now three) schools riddled with bullet holes.
Jewish General Hospital continuously on high alert for attacks due to its high profile name.
If the SPVM can't contain the violence, then somethings going to give.
All this in Montreal alone. Thats not even calling about the bullshit thats going on in Toronto where theres practically a weekly hate crime against jews that makes the papers, with shops getting vandalized. Heck they had another jewish school shooting earlier this week.
Some people just really have a deep-seated hatred of Jews, borne by centuries of virulent, generational antisemitism. And each time war breaks out in Israel/Palestine, mob mentality takes over, and it's suddenly okay again for this hatred to be shamelessly displayed out in the open, because hey everyone else is doing it too. And slowly it gets more and more normalized, people get desensitized, and school shootings occur like it's any other Wednesday. I honestly believe it's only a matter of time before a shooter decides to act during the day, when there are actually people inside.
I'm almost certain I'm see a pogrom in Montreal during my lifetime. The jewish community here is simply outnumbered, and the pro-Hamasniks are getting bolder due to a lack of consequences.
> Jewish people and Israelis are very different.
Half of the jews on the planet live in Israel after being ethnically cleansed out of the arab world for being jewish.
At a certain point, that distinction becomes meaningless. Especially when antisemitism plays a big fucking part in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
theyll still shoot up your school either way little bro, at least Israel gives half of them a fighting chance. Especially when the most defining characteristic of an Israeli is that he, his parents or his grandparents were ethnically cleansed or slaughtered out of Europe or the Arab world.
EDIT: yeesh this user's on every tankie sub
I'm not your little brother. Israel makes things worse for us. The further they carry on this genocide, the worse people's opinions of us get, the more we have REAL anti-semitism.
The more they conflate us with Zionism, the more danger they put us in. They make it unsafe for us on purpose so that we feel we have no choice but to go there.
My grandmother had to leave her home in Alexandria, Egypt at 18, but her family chose to come to Canada instead of being complicit in ethnic cleansing.
> My grandmother had to leave her home in Alexandria, Egypt at 18,
Wow thats crazy, its almost like the rise of arab nationalism makes it so that jews had to flee. But at the time there was a Canadian quota on jews. Can you imagine if there was no Israel? Most of your family would have been slaughtered as they would have nowhere to flee to.
Its funny as fuck to say that Israel is the cause of antisemitism, when its just an excuse for this generation's of antisemites who place all of the world's ills on jews.
You can bend your back as far down as you have to in order to get them to like you, but you'll still get thrown away at the earliest convenience.
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/the-cool-kids
> During the Soviet era, it needed proud internationalists to prove that Jews weren’t the problem, just the repulsive chauvinism of Jewish national identity—including what we now call Zionism.
> The Soviets actually went one better. In 1918, they created an entire branch of their government solely for cool Jews, whose paid job was to persecute the uncool ones. This was called the Yevsektsiya, or the Jewish Sections of the Communist Party, and in their brief and bloody lifespan, one finds the origins of today’s supposedly novel concept: Jews who are of course not anti-Semitic (how could they be? they’re Jews!), but simply anti-Zionist. In the course of not being anti-Semitic and being simply anti-Zionist, the Yevsektsiya managed to persecute, imprison, torture, and murder thousands of Jews, until their leaders were themselves purged.
> Yevsektsiya-style anti-Semitism, or Hannukah-style anti-Semitism, always promises Jews a kind of nobility, offering them the opportunity to cleanse themselves of whatever the people around them happen to find revolting. The Jewish traits designated as repulsive vary by country and time period, but they invariably contradict the specific values that the surrounding culture has embraced as “universal.”
Israel literally had no bearing on anything in my family's lives. It's not funny as fuck to say Israel perpetuates antisemitism abroad (I never said they were the cause of it, first of all), because it's literally been documented that they perpetuated it in Israel's early decades to convince people to immigrate there.
> they perpetuated it in Israel's early decades to convince people to immigrate there.
literal arab propaganda meant to assuage their guilt from ethnically cleansing all their jews.
"the zionists made us slaughter and ethnically cleanse our neighbours, we were manipulated" or "the zionists ethnically cleansed themselves". It varies by country from the least antisemitic like Morocco who still struggle to this day with what theyve done, seeing it done in a period of social confusion and revolution, to states like Algeria who is *proud* to this day of having ethnically cleansed all their jews after passing the 1963 Algerian Nationality law that stripped all non-muslims of their citizenship, rendering 140 000 jews stateless overnight.
The only source for this shit is Avi Shlaim and a few people affiliated with him, and him making shit up with a methodology that he does not disclose nor reveal any sources about (unless theyve been dead for 20 years that is) does not preclude the very real events that made the jews of the arab world flee, such as [the Farhud.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud)
Thats due to the way they were brought up.
We're literally taught that Israel was a land without people for a people without a home. They don't teach about the Nakba - the ethnic cleansing that Israel was founded on, they don't teach about Palestinians and instead erase their identity by just calling them Arabs.
From a very young age there's lots of anti-arab racism, we're told they're all terrorists, we're told not to date them, and we're told not to go in pools with them cause their "dirty hijabs" will contaminate the water. That was a common one for me cause I loved swimming.
Zionism is a racist ideology and was never a majority until Israel was founded and they could control the education. The terrorist org Igrun was absorbed into the IDF and became the Likud party, for reference.
Just because you were surrounded by racists doesn’t mean you get to speak for the Jewish people. So it’s not “we were taught” . YOU were taught. You don’t get any special attention points for being a Jewish anti Zionist, sorry.
[Im not talking out of my ass.](https://www.972mag.com/israel-education-textbooks-occupation/)
[Even in Canada,](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-schools-curriculum-topic-list-palestinian-history-nakba-backlash-1.7184780) we're not taught about Palestinians. The history we're taught is purposefully omitting details of history because it doesn't favor perception of Israel.
And whether you like it or not, omissions like these lead to the racism I'm referring to.
So you rather have no land that is dedicated to protecting your right to live, in your ancestral homeland filled with your culture, artifacts, and history?
I'll never understand anti-Zionist Jews.
Canada is dedicated to protecting my right to live, per the constitution. The communities here provide plenty of culture. And history is taught in elementary schools.
Comments are locked, so to answer the person below me who asked about my support for Canada:
I'm a strong believer of Landback initiatives, and I will always side with the Native Americans. I cannot help where I was born but I can educate myself and work on decolonizing my thought processes (and those of my friends and family), as well as advocate for them and amplify their voices where needed.
Canada as a country will continue to exist regardless of what its name is or who "owns" it. I don't support the capitalist system that governs it, nor do I have any appreciation that it was founded in the first place.
Surely you can’t support the continued existence of Canada if you have a moral opposition to states that were founded on land previously belonging to another group, though?
I think most people prefer living in a secular nation like Canada or a secular province like Quebec than some ethnocracy. Especially since it is all built around a religion and that a lot of Jews are secular.
why do people lose their minds when it's pointed out most suspects arrested for this kind of stuff are muslim
why do people lose their mind when the issue of anti-semitism in muslim communities is brought up
[The claim that anti-semitic attacks are often done covertly by white supremacist / neo nazi groups --- does this apply to montreal and quebec? : r/montreal (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/montreal/comments/185jxrc/the_claim_that_antisemitic_attacks_are_often_done/)
Muslim association of canada, hq located in mtl, has been under investigation for sending money to hamas, more than once on different names..is that islamophobic too?
https://globalnews.ca/news/10014362/cra-audit-canadian-charity-hamas-network/
i'm not
im able to recognize that anti-semitism is a phenomenon that is particularly present in muslim societies, and it used to be present in traditional franco and anglo quebec societies, and no longer is
C'est ironique comment plusieurs ont aucun scrupule à ramener Lionel groulx et cie pour illustrer à quel point les canadiens français étaient antisémite mais ce serait aujourd'hui Islamophobe de pointer la communauté musulmane pour la montée de l'antisémitisme ici aujourd'hui.
that the Prophet () married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet () for nine years (i.e. till his death).
For thoses of us keeping track:
Multiple explicitely pro-Hamas rallies, including one on October 8th. Speakers like Adil Charkaoui rallying a crowd to chant for the murder of Zionists. Speakers that call to "Flood Montreal for Gaza" (referencing the Al Aqsa Flood, which is the Hamas codename for October 7th)
[Two synagogues firebombed.](https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/west-island-synagogue-jewish-community-centre-firebombed-montreal-police-say)
One community center firebombed.
MADA Charity getting its locals broken into and vandalized.
[Two](https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/israel-hamas-war-legault-government-considers-banning-protests-1.6638119) (now three) schools riddled with bullet holes.
Jewish General Hospital continuously on high alert for attacks due to its high profile name.
If the SPVM can't contain the violence, then somethings going to give.
All this in Montreal alone. Thats not even calling about the bullshit thats going on in Toronto where theres practically a weekly hate crime against jews that makes the papers, with shops getting vandalized. Heck they had another jewish school shooting earlier this week.
Deuxième plus grosse communauté juive en Amérique du Nord après New York City...elle va pas bouger pour ça inquiète toi pas. Ils sont heureux de vivre ici et pas ailleurs.
C'est pas un des pires urgences? Me semble qu'ils sont toujours dans les alentours de 200%. J'habitais à coté et mon ex travaillait à l'urgence et disait toujours à nos amis d'aller à d'autres hopitaux. Je ne sais pas si c'est juste parce qu'ils ont beaucoup plus de patients que dans les autres hopitaux de Montréal (Avec le CHUM), mais l'urgence semble toujours à surcapacité.
[https://www.indexsante.ca/urgences/](https://www.indexsante.ca/urgences/)
The fact that you can’t even disassociate Jewish schools with Israel tells me what I need to know.
When you have students at McGill blocking Jewish students from going to class, calling for intifada and for Jews to go back to Europe (among other hateful things) then the core issue isn’t a hatred of Israel but rather a hatred of Jews sparked by a war that was started with the intention of killing every Jew alive.
Once again, not all Palestine supporters believe this. I could just as easily say that all Israelis want Palestinians to burn alive. You're lumping everyone into one category which is the exact thing you're criticizing the other extremists of doing.
This school shooting is terrible and what's happening in Palestine is terrible as well.
> Once again, not all Palestine supporters believe this.
It doesn't matter if its not all of them. The fact of the matter is, the pro-palestine movement refuses to kick out Hamas supporters out of its ranks.
If a conservative rally refuses to start kicking out people with nazi flags, theres naturally going to be some suspicion that the rally is a nazi-inclusive rally.
You can't hold a big tent for Hamas supporters and expect people to not be suspicious or to dance around accusations of antisemitism, when thoses are actual good faith accusations.
Yeah I see your point. Been thinking lately about what a peace rally would look like if Pro Palestinians and Israeli's came together to ask for peace.
Thing is, as a pro Palestinian myself, a rally like that would have to ask for a ceasefire and a two state solution. I just don't see Israeli supporters being ok with that. So, since you seem to be a level headed person, what would a peace rally ask for from your side of the issue?
1/2 //
> Thing is, as a pro Palestinian myself, a rally like that would have to ask for a ceasefire and a two state solution. I just don't see Israeli supporters being ok with that. So, since you seem to be a level headed person, what would a peace rally ask for from your side of the issue?
Huh? Thats not true at all. The two-state solution is the liberal zionist's principle, of whom most north american jews adhere to. But the pro-palestine movement as it exists in the west does not want two states, they "want all of 48'" and want an "intifada". Its a bit hard to try to reason with such maximalist demands.
Like, you can go to any rally in Tel Aviv and you'll see palestinian flags being flown by proud zionists, because the establishment of a palestinian state does not necessarily exclude the existance of a Israeli one. Do not assume that Netanyahu being a slimy bastard is representative of the average Israeli's view on how to deal with the palestinians.
The problem for me is that the opposite does not hold true. How many *actual* peace organizations do you know that came out of palestine in the past 50 years? I'm not talking about orgs that have the label peace in them. I mean orgs that disavow all attempts at armed violence in order to find a political solution that keeps Israelis safe while giving room for Palestinians to have their dignity at last? Because most of theses orgs are either a variation of dismantling Israel (an impossible demand that will render the jews defenseless in the face of the arab hordes that slaughtered them once and will do so again at the earliest opportunity) or to create a one state solution (a fantasy that would balkanize a first world nation into a civil war where the two sides that dont share the same language, culture, ideology, history, religion are supposed to share the same political system, and that will eventually die in an orgy of blood and violence.)
I dont know a single palestinian org that looks for peace. The closest you get are palestinian orgs that only aim for trying to convince dissident jews within Israel to abandon the state. But any actual real attempt at peace always seems to be started by the Israeli side, and local zionists.
You'd be right that most zionists are not keen on a ceasefire right now, especially as Hamas still exists and has stated it *will* attack again. Until you're capable of providing proof that Israelis will be existantially safe from physical genocidal violence, they're not going to stop hitting. October 7th evoked a deep emotional trauma of the Eisatzgruppen going from home to home slaughtering jewish families, and seeing most of Gaza cheer for this kind of sheer genocidal violence, where the goal was only to torture as many Israelis to death as they could, has convinced most of them that there is no possible political solution anymore.
Nowadays, I'm completely clueless on how to possibly resolve the conflict. Netanyahu is only ever elected when the Israelis are cynical about the peace process, and he's been kicked out of the prime minister seat no less than 3 times once Israelis were promised a better future was possible with the palestinians.
One of the first possible paths to go through is perhaps [shrinking the conflict](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/how-shrink-israeli-palestinian-conflict/617526/). Not trying to solve it, but breaking an impossible problem into small steps. Instead of going for a solution that solves every single problem they have, focusing on slowing down the rising number of friction that exists.
2/2//
I didn't mean this comment to go on this long and I ran on the 10 000 character limit, but theres also this that I want to share. The one time Israel and Palestine almost made it.
Bill Clinton almost made peace between the two with the Clinton Parameters, and its failure is one of his biggest regrest to this day. You can tell how pissed off he is at Yasser Arafat for failing to make peace when he had the chance, and how distraught he is by the whole experience
Hillary had him explain the whole thing on her podcast
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-you-and-me-both-with-hill-71671764/episode/president-bill-clinton-134791615/
Heres a transcript of the podcast
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FOaU3k85ZrDGXE6ifeAxZmwKdsBDFoJxaME8Oj6KbTg/edit
> **President Clinton** Late 1995, November. Okay. So after Rabin was killed, Peres was prime minister for a while. Then Netanyahu got in. Then in 1998, something truly remarkable happened. We had the only year, at that time, the first year in the history of Israel, when not a single solitary person was killed by a terrorist incident. And it was stunning. We finally had a year when it all worked. And it's impossible to believe now. But, I mean, you had the Israeli intelligence, Palestinian intelligence and the American CIA working hand in glove with others trying to keep people alive. It was fascinating. Okay. So then in 1998, there was an election in which the people of Israel said, let's try again for peace. And that's how Ehud Barak, who was the most decorated soldier in Israeli history, became prime minister. And this is the important thing for people to know. Now, this is not all that long ago, 25 years ago. We all were working together and we kept turning over more land to the Palestinians and kept, you know, moving forward on all these other issues. And finally, at the end of my term, near the end, we decided to meet at Camp David, because the Palestinians had still never actually said what they would accept. So we met at Camp David, and I never thought we'd get an agreement there. And all the stuff you read today, almost 100% of it is just hooey from people who either weren't there or have bad memories. And I was personally involved with this. This wasn't something handed over to my aides. So what we wanted to know at Camp David is how much will the traffic bear here? Where is there going to be a deal that the Palestinians will have a state, it will be sustainable economically and politically, and supportable, and it will lead to a total end of the conflict and a new era of partnership? Now, there were people who didn't like that, including Hamas. Hamas never signed on to this. Their goal was always to get rid of Israel.
> **HRC** They've always been for the elimination of Israel.
> **President Clinton** For the elimination, they wanted- yes-
> **HRC** There has never been any doubt in their actions, their documents-.
> **President Clinton** Never.
> **HRC** Or anything else.
> **President Clinton** So we worked for a little while after Camp David and both sides then asked me to offer a final proposal where they would basically fill in the blanks. And this is what our listeners need to know. This is what was offered, what Israel agreed to. I recommended that there be two states, that Israel is within the '67 borders, as the U.N. resolutions called for, with some land adjustments to cover 80-plus percent of the settlers on the West Bank, which were then under 100,000. Far fewer than now. And that the Palestinians would get the West Bank called for in the Oslo Accords. Plus Gaza, of course, plus 4% of Israel to make up for the 4% necessary to include the settlers, and that the West Bank and Gaza be connected by overhead highways that were subject to no checks, total free movement, and that there be, you know, agreed upon prisoner releases and all that so that we could settle the populations as much as possible. The Palestinians would get a capital in East Jerusalem. That was a big no-no in Israeli politics for years. You could never agree to divide Jerusalem. Ehud Barak's cabinet supported a capital in East Jerusalem for the Palestinians. It was a pretty good deal. I mean, it's unthinkable today. That's how close we were. There were listening posts in the West Bank, which Israel had, which they said at the time--they were right--they said we can't dismantle these now because of Saddam Hussein and because we don't have a peace agreement with Syria, with Assad. So we will let the Palestinians have equal access, in effect, every time we're up there, they can be up there. Because we all understood that if we had a peace agreement with a new state, the enemies of peace would try to kill the leaders of both sides for at least 3 or 4 years.
> **President Clinton** And the Israelis accepted it. And the Palestinians wanted a few more blocks for Christian churches in the Old City. They wanted a clear say, which we gave them, on what countries would be in an international security force that we would put on the eastern flank of the Palestinian state. We were arguing over a few blocks of the old city of Jerusalem. So I laid all this out there. About six weeks before I left office, Yasser Arafat was in town. He came by to see me, and I wanted to see him alone. And keep in mind, the United Nations had designated Arafat to represent the Palestinians. So I asked him, I said, *Are we going to do this peace deal?* He said, Sure. I said, *No, no, no.* I said, *This is serious because I have a chance to go to North Korea and make an agreement with them that could end their nuclear program, end their missile program, and take a dark cloud off the future of North Asia. But an American president can't just drop down to North Korea for the first time since the end of the Korean War. I have to go to South Korea. I have to go to Japan, which still had prisoners in North Korea. I have to go to Russia and China, which were the co-sponsors of the peace.* He said, *Well, how long will it take?* I said, *About 12 days if I don't sleep.* And he said, *Oh, you can't do that.* It was the only time I was ever with Arafat where I saw tears in his eyes. He said, *You can't do that.* I said, *Why? Because you're going to sign this deal when we get it done, and it needs to look like I'm putting heavy pressure on you?* He said, *Sure, yes. You can't go away.* I said, *Okay, but you just tell me the truth. If you're not going to do this, you have to tell me.* He said, *My God, if we don't do it while you're here, it might be ten years, 20 years, maybe forever. We have to do it now.* He had never, ever lied to me. He was hard to get a commitment out of, but he never lied. And so he just... It never happened. I don't know whether he was afraid he would be killed immediately, but he certainly wasn't afraid. He spent the night in a different place for 20 years, every night. In other words, people were trying to kill him, too. All this time, everybody acts like all this is a free ride, you know? If you try to make peace between people who've been fighting, the people who have an interest in the fighting will try to stop you. So anyway, the date came and the date went. And I have now listened for over 20 years to people tell me why Camp David was a failure. It wasn't. It was never designed to get a final agreement. No one in their right mind who had ever been dealing with this believed that we could get an agreement at Camp David. What we could get is the Palestinians to tell us exactly where a deal might be, and then we'd push like crazy to get it. And even after I left, we had one more month in which they were working. And I was wearing Arafat out by then, I said, ***Why aren't you doing this? Don't you understand?*** He said, ***Well, the Israelis are too weak to make the deal now. Barak's going to lose the election.*** I said, ***He's going to lose the election because you let him get way out on his ledge and you haven't taken this deal. And instead you started the second intifada.*** I said, *But I still have a 74% approval rating in Israel and we're going to ratify this deal or defeat it in an election.* And he never said yes. He never said no. And he just, I mean, that's basically what happened. And we're living with this- that we could have had 25 years, imagine this, of a Palestinian state.
> **HRC** Or 23 years.
> **President Clinton** There'd be 23 years of a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza with no checkpoints, no stops, no nothing. And look what happened afterward. Ariel Sharon defeated Netanyahu for prime minister. And then the only question was, which hardliner would win? Because the Israeli voters by then said, ***Oh, my God, if they won't take what Barak and his cabinet offered, they're not going to take anything. We'll just elect the toughest guy we can.***
>Not all Palestine supporters believe this.
While true, most do and there too much evidence supporting it.
>You’re lumping everyone into one category which is exactly the same thing you’re criticizing other extremists of doing.
I did not lump everyone together I just stated how there’s one group currently at McGill preaching violence and hatred on a daily basis.
As I’m not a McGill student I’m not there to bear witness to what they do or don’t do on the daily, but around the time when the encampment was first set up one of my friends was locked out of her class and physically blocked from entering the building it was in the very next day.
She documented it and posted about it on her socials and reported it to the police but the police told her that it’s freedom of protest.
She’s openly Jewish and wears a Magen-David pendant on her necklace.
>When you have students at McGill blocking Jewish students from going to class
>
what evidence of this
why will no one step up and point to the evidence of this
what is this persistence in making claims and then flaking away when asked about them
Call it what you want but im literally quoting exactly what these “critics” say.
Is it okay to criticize Israel and its actions? Yes.
Is it okay to hate the Israeli government, including Bibi? Yes.
Is it okay to want peace and for a two state solution to be established? Yes
Is it okay to say from the river to the sea Palestine will be free, implying the destruction of Israel and subsequent genocide/exodus of all Israelis? No.
Is it okay to believe that Jews who hold the belief that they’re entitled to statehood in their ancestral homeland are evil and should be killed? No.
Criticize Israel as much as you want but the moment diaspora Jews are attacked the argument becomes moot.
« From the river to sea » c’est une phrase utilisé par les Israéliens aussi, jsp pourquoi c’est problematic depuis octobre 2023 mais ça existait depuis au moins les 90s
No they clearly didn't? Anti-zionists doesn't mean simply being a critic of Israel. It means to actively believe in the dismantling and destruction of the state of Israel, which not only is an incredibly antisemitic belief to hold because it means believing the Jewish people (and presumably *only* the Jewish people) do not have a right to self-determination in their historic homeland; but it would also ensure the ethnic cleansing or genocide of Jews from Israel, which is.. kinda evil.
Anti-zionists do not believe that Jewish people don't have the right to self determination. Anti-zionists believe that EVERYONE should have that right, including Palestinians. Zionism by definition is a racist political ideology because it was never a land without a people, and making it exclusive to a specific OTHER people necessarily requires ethnic cleansing of an Indigenous population.
Jews have always lived there, yes. But so have Muslims and Christians. A free Palestine is a free Palestine for EVERYONE. And Palestinians also deserve the "right of return." And to not have their houses and land stolen.
They literally have roads Palestinians aren't allowed to use. They steal their houses and displace them. Israel controls their food, water, electricity. Palestinians within Israel have to go through checkpoints with IDs that Jews don't. Palestinians in the diaspora don't have right of return.
Israel was founded on the Nakba.
It's always been about colonialism, racism, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid.
> you have student at McGill blocking Jewish students from going to class…
Where’d you read this? I go to McGill and the most I’ve heard was students protesting a class with a field trip to Israel, not students blocking Jews from going to class.
Because hey, "Intifada" is just an Arabic word for uprising, right? /s
That's been my experience in this subreddit as well. Got accused multiple times last week of actively supporting genocide simply because I said I'm Jewish and went to Israel recently. Boggles my mind honestly, but hey, what can you do.
Because some people are simpletons and can’t see that you as a person along with any other Jew or Israeli has no control over the action of the Israeli government just like how just like how most Palestinians and other Arabs have no control over the actions of Hamas and other Iranian proxies.
>The fact that you can’t even disassociate Jewish schools with Israel tells me what I need to know.
You are literally the one who was doing so lol. I just answered you while you were pretending that people protesting in McGill are the reason why people shoot on schools.
“They” are the people that shoot at Jewish schools and then take to the streets the very next day to preach about how “successful” the revolution is.
Kinda like what happened in Toronto over the weekend and what I guarantee will happen tomorrow at some point or another.
I only heard about 3, and the last 2 were over 6 months ago.
I also listed that as one possible option.
Really desperate to discredit me huh. If we're stooping that low, i could start arguing that it could be zionists who did it since they're probably in need of sympathy after israel massacred a dozen children in a refugee camp, but hey i wouldn't stoop that low now would i.
Speculation makes us all look like dicks, and it's a game we can all play.
3 in Montreal, 1 in Toronto last week. Cope buddy.
Israel dropped 17 kg of munitions right on Hamas dickheads. Incredible precision. The stockpile of munitions they kept hiding near children blew up and tragically killed civilians. And yet you still blame Israel and not Hamas.
Much like you’d rather blame a stray bullet than the raging anti sémites shooting up schools in our country. Gtfoh.
"Stockpile of munitions," is straight out of the hasbara playbook dude.
Can you explain the mass Graves then? The Palestinians who were killed execution style just for being in a hospital? Blowing up crucial infrastructure? Preventing and destroying aid?
And before you say human shields, IDF are documented using human shields. And before you say hamas base of operations, not only there was never proof, but IDF soldiers at one point used a gazan school as their own base of operations. And before you say hamas would steal the aid, IDF now have a cookbook out about how to eat and cook food stolen from Palestinian homes.
Every accusation has been a confession.
>“They” are the people that shoot at Jewish schools and then take to the streets the very next day to preach about how “successful” the revolution is.
How many people do you believe you are talking about?
Every society are going to have criminal scum, but you are equating one or two piece of shit vandalizing a school and intimidating people with everyone protesting against Israel.
ur right we have no idea who did this
but do u deny that a disproportionate number of suspects arrested for attakcs on jewish institutions in montreal have muslim-sounding names?
I mean, it's 1 v 0 at this point? I mean sure i'll agree.
Doesn't mean i'm gonna just assume every hate crime against a jewish institution moving forward is automatically pro-palestine protesters. Especially since zionists have a knack for false flagging.
And like, even if the guy turns out to be muslim, doesn't mean you can blame the entire movement for it. Then push them into ghettos to "protect the population". Then stop humanitarian aid from reaching them and bombing refugee camps oh wait this collective blame shit really is a drug huh
im not talking about the movement, im talking about recognizing if theres a anti-semitism problem in contemporary muslim culture in mtl
do u think there is
I believe there is. I think most educated people are able to separate zionism and jews as a whole, but definitely not all.
I also believe there is a big islamophobia problem in the jewish community, especially seeing as a vocal majority of the jewish population of montreal supports the actions of israel. Just as many muslims cannot separate zionists and jews, many jews cannot separiate muslims from promoters of the shariah.
Wouldn't you agree?
no, i dont think its islamophobia
what false flag operation has occurred in mtl
im aware of the restaurant owners in winnipeg who made up the anti-semitic attack. only case i know of
[Hate-crime attack on café staged, Winnipeg police say, after owners charged with mischief | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/bermax-winnipeg-antisemitic-arrest-1.5109224)
so u only interested in discussion with people who have same opinions as u already
not interseted in changing minds, persuading
i think a lot of jewish montrealers can be careless and indifferent about palestinian human lives. i dont equate that to islamophobia necessarily. do u understand distinction
Not really, it's just that i've had more than my share of arguments with zealous zionists and am not really interested in having more.
If someone can have a balanced point of view then that's interesting to me.
I mean yeah, some are careless, and some downright fucking hate muslims. Some are openly advocating for israel to "finish the job". The mayor of hampstead could probably vouch for that.
As for false flags, outside of the one in winnipeg, it's also a signature move of israel to destabilize neighbooring countries because it profits from the infighting. The most historically notable one is the Lavon affair, but there's no lack of modern examples.
Now i'm not saying all jews are zionists or anything like that, but especially in the context of the recent refugee camp massacre and support for israel being at an all time low, i wouldn't put it past certain people
I guess it's what happen when you let antisemit extremist spew their propaganda freely on all social media, peoples Actually believe that Jews are commiting a genocide and bombing refugee tent in Palestine right now...
I mean, Israel is bombing Rafah let’s not erase what they’re doing here - but targeting Jews for any reason in Canada is NOT ok and should be condemned. The world’s Jewish population is *not* the Israeli government.
Most educated people understand that, but when you have pop star like Ariana Grande or Katy Perry spewing propaganda and lies at their moronic viewers it turns antisemite 8 times out of 10 and then you have people doing shit like that... And Israel is bombing target in Rafa yes, doesn't mean they are TARGETING refugee or committing genocide.
Let's condemn the attack on the Jewish school without vilifying Palestinian refugees or victims of war. Spreading misinformation and harmful stereotypes only perpetuates cycles of violence and hate. Let's address the issue at hand with clarity and respect, and avoid using tragedies to justify discrimination or hatred towards entire groups of people.
Bruh... Peoples vilify Jews and the Jewish woman and children's who got raped to death on October 7 on a daily basis... Its getting really hard to figure out who is really antisemite and who just hate the whole country of Israel... We literally saw multiple video of Palestinian cheering up when Hamas was parading that dead woman downtown... We know they hide terrorist, we know they vote for Hamas, we know they eat with them, we know they celebrate their victory and rape with them... How can you feel more bad for these peoples than for Israel peoples who are trying to survive in a region where everybody wants them dead...
Bruh... Peoples vilify Jews and the Jewish woman and children's who got raped to death on October 7 on a daily basis... It getting really hard to figure out who is really antisemitism and who just hate the whole country of Israel... We literally saw multiple video of Palestinian cheering up when Hamas was parading that dead woman downtown... We know they hide terrorist, we know they eat with them, we know they celebrate their victory and rape with them... How can you feel more bad for these peoples than for Israel peoples who are trying to survive in a region where everybody wants them dead...
If you want to get involved with guns with that conflict just take a one way plane ticket to Palestine that's it.... We don't need that here and for fuck sake don't target children's
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Each time the pro palestinian crowd shoots up a jewish school, more jews emigrate to Israel, all while Canada imports Palestinians. Canada will end up like Palestine and Israel will end up like Canada
It is still probably a better place than 99.9% of the globe. I would take Canada over Israel any day of the week, especially my current region. Maybe I would move to Switzerland instead, but this is about it.
If you shoot up a school you deserve jail for life and if you aren't Canadian be sent back wherever you from after.
Yes there's a genocide in Palestine, yes Hammas is as bad and deranged as IDF but shooting up a school in a country that most of the population can't even point the middle east on the map you are a sick fuck and deserve to rot in a hole
Oh no! Zionists! RUN!!!
Are the Zionists in the room right now? Did they traumatize you with their belief that they are allowed a country like every other nation? Much like Palestinians can have theirs if they stop with the terrorist shit?
They've said time and again they'll never acknowledge a Palestinian state, regardless of anything. Netanyahu famously admitted to funding Hamas and propping them up in Gaza so they could keep Gaza and the West Bank separated in order to prevent an official Palestinian state. Most if not all of the officials in Israel have spouted genocidal rhetoric.
The March of return was a peaceful demonstration in Gaza. BIG emphasis on peaceful. The IDF slaughtered many of them anyway, including journalists and children.
Never acknowledge, that's why they've made multiple offers.
You're conflating the views of one fringe to the official stance of the country as a whole for 76 years. You know who HAS said they'll never acknowledge Israel? Hamas and the PLO (and the current PA by extension).
Menawhile, even Netanyahu knows its inevitable - his current stance is him being a hardliner because it's the only thing keeping him out of court and out of jail for his corruption charges. EVERYTHING he has done and said politically for the past 6 years has been about that. But here's a comment I made collecting his actual quotes on the subject
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/XApwL9I0I8
So, you're wrong. As you are on 99% of the other nonsense shit takes straight out the Pallywood playbook you spew back here uncritically and unresearched (and because you're probably too dim to realize it, that's just a sarcastic rejoinder to you accusing people of being Hasbara if they counteract even a single of your point with facts).
They've never made a reasonable offer for a Palestinian state. "He's only hardlining now because--" No. This has been their stance all along, only now all the cards are on the table because they've pushed themselves into a corner with this genocide.
Would YOU acknowledge a state who stole your land and massacred your people to claim it? Can't blame them for not acknowledging Israel.
You're right, we shouldn't acknowledge Palestinians then, since they're the actual colonizers and land stealersand ethnic cleansers in this case. Those 7th century Muslims weren't fucking around.
I could rebuke your nonsense claims with actual historical evidence that you're full of crap, but you're clearly too delusional and sold on the lie of what Zionism is as to what it really seeks.
But hey, you can still read this and educate yourself:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Palestinians
(tldr: they're not really distinct from the rest of the Arab populations and some of them are even of Jewish ancestry. And it confirms that they first arrived there as colonizers. But the money quote is:
"Academic standards for the use of historical evidence are rarely followed in the Palestinian historical discourse, and evidence that is antagonistic to the national cause is either disregarded or dismissed as false or hostile.')
And despite that, I STILL support the establishment of a Palestinian state. As do almost every jew and Zionist I know. Just not INSTEAD of Israel, but at its side. I've proven that even Netanyahu was for it, but you're still convinced that your head canon is what's actually true.
[Here's a Ted Talk by a Jewish geneticist](https://www.ted.com/talks/nathaniel_pearson_the_splendid_tapestry_how_dna_reveals_truths_ancient_lasting/transcript) that literally proves that Palestinians are indigenous to the Levant and share most of their DNA with people from ~3700 years ago.
Sure, Palestinians might have been arabized. But that makes them no less Indigenous; just gives them a different language and religion (many of them are still Jewish, though -- but that doesnt matter to zionists because being Palestinian bars them from returning home regardless).
Also, your cited section or "money quote," is from [this work](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230621633_5) written by Meir Litvak who is an Israeli nationalist as well as the chair of Middle Eastern history at Tel-Aviv University. So not biased at all, right?
Oh fuck yeah i stand by that 100% :) Good to know my comment history is living rent free in your head.
It's also a fucking disgrace to the hundreds of murdered kids and their families who died in actual school shootings, to call it this way to usurp the sympathy.
Call it a hate crime all you want, but one bullet being shot at an empty school in the middle of the night is in no way a school shooting.
> A shooting takes place
> It’s in front of a school
> Not a school shooting because only one bullet hit the school and no one was inside
Also define Zionism for me I’m curious as the what you think it means.
Kinda like zionism, school shooting has evolved to represent a very specific situation.
Modern zionism is the belief that the jewish people are entitled to own the territory of israel as their homeland. It, by definition, relegates muslims to the rank of second class citizens by giving jews "god given rights to the land".
I know you're about to pull some technicality out of your ass, kinda like that school shooting bullshit, but i'll tell you right now i see clearly through the bs.
Only one side considers the other second class citizens, fam. There are arabs on the knesset, there's even an arab party, and there was an israeli prime minister who was criminally convicted by an arab judge. Arabs make up 20% of Israel's demographic, that's 2 million arabs, which is 60 times the total number of jews living in arab or muslim countries across the entire world (around 30 000).
Hell, not only is israel the only country in the middle east where a straight arab man has full human rights, it is the only country in the middle east where ALL arabs have full equal rights, on par with every citizen, regardless of race creed, gender, or culture. Arab israelis even had the "privilege" of being massacred alongside jews on October 7th! Oh, and they get fucking pissed when you call them palastinians.
This isn't an arab vs jews thing, this is a, "you already got 3/4 of the land of israel in the form of jordan, and would have gotten the better half of what's left ('47 partition), all you had to do was literally just stop attacking me as you have since you colonized this land circa 600 CE as I am sick of killing you and accept that jews live here, as we have since circa 1000 BCE, forming the first kingdom on this land since the Natufians circa 10 000 bce and you could have been a prospering nation 5x over" kind of thing
Wtf??? Can we not have this bs here in my country? This is getting fucking ridiculous and barbaric.
For thoses of us keeping track: Multiple explicitely pro-Hamas rallies, including one on October 8th. Speakers like Adil Charkaoui rallying a crowd to chant for the murder of Zionists. Speakers that call to "Flood Montreal for Gaza" (referencing the Al Aqsa Flood, which is the Hamas codename for October 7th) [Two synagogues firebombed.](https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/west-island-synagogue-jewish-community-centre-firebombed-montreal-police-say) One community center firebombed. MADA Charity getting its locals broken into and vandalized. [Two](https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/israel-hamas-war-legault-government-considers-banning-protests-1.6638119) (now three) schools riddled with bullet holes. Jewish General Hospital continuously on high alert for attacks due to its high profile name. If the SPVM can't contain the violence, then somethings going to give. All this in Montreal alone. Thats not even calling about the bullshit thats going on in Toronto where theres practically a weekly hate crime against jews that makes the papers, with shops getting vandalized. Heck they had another jewish school shooting earlier this week.
So we need more Palestinian immigrants clearly.
Diversity is our strenght (tm).
I don’t get why these people are doing this all over Canada wtf does a school have to do with the Middle East conflict
Some people just really have a deep-seated hatred of Jews, borne by centuries of virulent, generational antisemitism. And each time war breaks out in Israel/Palestine, mob mentality takes over, and it's suddenly okay again for this hatred to be shamelessly displayed out in the open, because hey everyone else is doing it too. And slowly it gets more and more normalized, people get desensitized, and school shootings occur like it's any other Wednesday. I honestly believe it's only a matter of time before a shooter decides to act during the day, when there are actually people inside.
I'm almost certain I'm see a pogrom in Montreal during my lifetime. The jewish community here is simply outnumbered, and the pro-Hamasniks are getting bolder due to a lack of consequences.
Some people think that both sides are bad. Jewish people and Israelis are very different.
> Jewish people and Israelis are very different. Half of the jews on the planet live in Israel after being ethnically cleansed out of the arab world for being jewish. At a certain point, that distinction becomes meaningless. Especially when antisemitism plays a big fucking part in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
The distinction is not meaningless. Sincerely, an anti-zionist jew.
theyll still shoot up your school either way little bro, at least Israel gives half of them a fighting chance. Especially when the most defining characteristic of an Israeli is that he, his parents or his grandparents were ethnically cleansed or slaughtered out of Europe or the Arab world. EDIT: yeesh this user's on every tankie sub
I'm not your little brother. Israel makes things worse for us. The further they carry on this genocide, the worse people's opinions of us get, the more we have REAL anti-semitism. The more they conflate us with Zionism, the more danger they put us in. They make it unsafe for us on purpose so that we feel we have no choice but to go there. My grandmother had to leave her home in Alexandria, Egypt at 18, but her family chose to come to Canada instead of being complicit in ethnic cleansing.
> My grandmother had to leave her home in Alexandria, Egypt at 18, Wow thats crazy, its almost like the rise of arab nationalism makes it so that jews had to flee. But at the time there was a Canadian quota on jews. Can you imagine if there was no Israel? Most of your family would have been slaughtered as they would have nowhere to flee to. Its funny as fuck to say that Israel is the cause of antisemitism, when its just an excuse for this generation's of antisemites who place all of the world's ills on jews. You can bend your back as far down as you have to in order to get them to like you, but you'll still get thrown away at the earliest convenience. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/the-cool-kids > During the Soviet era, it needed proud internationalists to prove that Jews weren’t the problem, just the repulsive chauvinism of Jewish national identity—including what we now call Zionism. > The Soviets actually went one better. In 1918, they created an entire branch of their government solely for cool Jews, whose paid job was to persecute the uncool ones. This was called the Yevsektsiya, or the Jewish Sections of the Communist Party, and in their brief and bloody lifespan, one finds the origins of today’s supposedly novel concept: Jews who are of course not anti-Semitic (how could they be? they’re Jews!), but simply anti-Zionist. In the course of not being anti-Semitic and being simply anti-Zionist, the Yevsektsiya managed to persecute, imprison, torture, and murder thousands of Jews, until their leaders were themselves purged. > Yevsektsiya-style anti-Semitism, or Hannukah-style anti-Semitism, always promises Jews a kind of nobility, offering them the opportunity to cleanse themselves of whatever the people around them happen to find revolting. The Jewish traits designated as repulsive vary by country and time period, but they invariably contradict the specific values that the surrounding culture has embraced as “universal.”
Israel literally had no bearing on anything in my family's lives. It's not funny as fuck to say Israel perpetuates antisemitism abroad (I never said they were the cause of it, first of all), because it's literally been documented that they perpetuated it in Israel's early decades to convince people to immigrate there.
> they perpetuated it in Israel's early decades to convince people to immigrate there. literal arab propaganda meant to assuage their guilt from ethnically cleansing all their jews. "the zionists made us slaughter and ethnically cleanse our neighbours, we were manipulated" or "the zionists ethnically cleansed themselves". It varies by country from the least antisemitic like Morocco who still struggle to this day with what theyve done, seeing it done in a period of social confusion and revolution, to states like Algeria who is *proud* to this day of having ethnically cleansed all their jews after passing the 1963 Algerian Nationality law that stripped all non-muslims of their citizenship, rendering 140 000 jews stateless overnight. The only source for this shit is Avi Shlaim and a few people affiliated with him, and him making shit up with a methodology that he does not disclose nor reveal any sources about (unless theyve been dead for 20 years that is) does not preclude the very real events that made the jews of the arab world flee, such as [the Farhud.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud)
The large majority of Jews are Zionist and believe a Jewish state in Israel should exist . Your personal stance on this has no bearing whatsoever
Thats due to the way they were brought up. We're literally taught that Israel was a land without people for a people without a home. They don't teach about the Nakba - the ethnic cleansing that Israel was founded on, they don't teach about Palestinians and instead erase their identity by just calling them Arabs. From a very young age there's lots of anti-arab racism, we're told they're all terrorists, we're told not to date them, and we're told not to go in pools with them cause their "dirty hijabs" will contaminate the water. That was a common one for me cause I loved swimming. Zionism is a racist ideology and was never a majority until Israel was founded and they could control the education. The terrorist org Igrun was absorbed into the IDF and became the Likud party, for reference.
Don’t worry, everyone on Reddit knows more about your history than you do. They’ll fix you right up
Unironically yes.
Just because you were surrounded by racists doesn’t mean you get to speak for the Jewish people. So it’s not “we were taught” . YOU were taught. You don’t get any special attention points for being a Jewish anti Zionist, sorry.
[Im not talking out of my ass.](https://www.972mag.com/israel-education-textbooks-occupation/) [Even in Canada,](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-schools-curriculum-topic-list-palestinian-history-nakba-backlash-1.7184780) we're not taught about Palestinians. The history we're taught is purposefully omitting details of history because it doesn't favor perception of Israel. And whether you like it or not, omissions like these lead to the racism I'm referring to.
So you rather have no land that is dedicated to protecting your right to live, in your ancestral homeland filled with your culture, artifacts, and history? I'll never understand anti-Zionist Jews.
Canada is dedicated to protecting my right to live, per the constitution. The communities here provide plenty of culture. And history is taught in elementary schools. Comments are locked, so to answer the person below me who asked about my support for Canada: I'm a strong believer of Landback initiatives, and I will always side with the Native Americans. I cannot help where I was born but I can educate myself and work on decolonizing my thought processes (and those of my friends and family), as well as advocate for them and amplify their voices where needed. Canada as a country will continue to exist regardless of what its name is or who "owns" it. I don't support the capitalist system that governs it, nor do I have any appreciation that it was founded in the first place.
Surely you can’t support the continued existence of Canada if you have a moral opposition to states that were founded on land previously belonging to another group, though?
I think most people prefer living in a secular nation like Canada or a secular province like Quebec than some ethnocracy. Especially since it is all built around a religion and that a lot of Jews are secular.
Israeli is a race, Jewisim is a religion.
Israeli is a nationality Race is a construct Judaism is a religion Jewisim is not a word
Judaism is actually both a religion and a distinct ethnicity. An ethnoreligion, if you will
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I’m not sure who you’re trying to insult right now. The Jewisims?
Why do you have such a strong opinion about this when you cant even spell Judaism
Why do you exist?
Those who think this had anything to do with land and not religion are just morons.
We have been actively importing this problem to our country every single year. Blame Trudeau.
As a Jew moving to Montreal next week. Cool.
Third time since October
why do people lose their minds when it's pointed out most suspects arrested for this kind of stuff are muslim why do people lose their mind when the issue of anti-semitism in muslim communities is brought up [The claim that anti-semitic attacks are often done covertly by white supremacist / neo nazi groups --- does this apply to montreal and quebec? : r/montreal (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/montreal/comments/185jxrc/the_claim_that_antisemitic_attacks_are_often_done/)
can attest to the fact that most Muslim students at the elementary school I went to used the word ”juif“ as an insult
Tons of kids in general used the word ‘Jew’ as an insult at the school I went to. Including Jewish people. Nothing new.
Just gonna leave this here: https://medium.com/@Ksantini/the-list-of-crimes-committed-by-muslims-against-jews-since-the-7th-century-0ff1a8eb0ad0
Because you are islamophobic
Muslim association of canada, hq located in mtl, has been under investigation for sending money to hamas, more than once on different names..is that islamophobic too? https://globalnews.ca/news/10014362/cra-audit-canadian-charity-hamas-network/
i'm not im able to recognize that anti-semitism is a phenomenon that is particularly present in muslim societies, and it used to be present in traditional franco and anglo quebec societies, and no longer is
C'est ironique comment plusieurs ont aucun scrupule à ramener Lionel groulx et cie pour illustrer à quel point les canadiens français étaient antisémite mais ce serait aujourd'hui Islamophobe de pointer la communauté musulmane pour la montée de l'antisémitisme ici aujourd'hui.
that the Prophet () married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet () for nine years (i.e. till his death).
So scary. Please everyone be safe. We support our jewish community and denouce these trash attacks.
"It wasn't antisemitic to shoot the Jewish school, it was antizionist" -The shooter probably
ironically if they shoot at Jewish schools more people will move to Israel
For thoses of us keeping track: Multiple explicitely pro-Hamas rallies, including one on October 8th. Speakers like Adil Charkaoui rallying a crowd to chant for the murder of Zionists. Speakers that call to "Flood Montreal for Gaza" (referencing the Al Aqsa Flood, which is the Hamas codename for October 7th) [Two synagogues firebombed.](https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/west-island-synagogue-jewish-community-centre-firebombed-montreal-police-say) One community center firebombed. MADA Charity getting its locals broken into and vandalized. [Two](https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/israel-hamas-war-legault-government-considers-banning-protests-1.6638119) (now three) schools riddled with bullet holes. Jewish General Hospital continuously on high alert for attacks due to its high profile name. If the SPVM can't contain the violence, then somethings going to give. All this in Montreal alone. Thats not even calling about the bullshit thats going on in Toronto where theres practically a weekly hate crime against jews that makes the papers, with shops getting vandalized. Heck they had another jewish school shooting earlier this week.
Les pro Hamas vont faire fuir les juifs de Montréal et on va perdre notre seule hôpital fonctionnel tbnk
Deuxième plus grosse communauté juive en Amérique du Nord après New York City...elle va pas bouger pour ça inquiète toi pas. Ils sont heureux de vivre ici et pas ailleurs.
C'est pas un des pires urgences? Me semble qu'ils sont toujours dans les alentours de 200%. J'habitais à coté et mon ex travaillait à l'urgence et disait toujours à nos amis d'aller à d'autres hopitaux. Je ne sais pas si c'est juste parce qu'ils ont beaucoup plus de patients que dans les autres hopitaux de Montréal (Avec le CHUM), mais l'urgence semble toujours à surcapacité. [https://www.indexsante.ca/urgences/](https://www.indexsante.ca/urgences/)
Funny how they say they aren’t antisemitic but rather just anti Zionist.
The few idiots who shoot on schools aren't representative of every Canadians who are critical of Israel.
The fact that you can’t even disassociate Jewish schools with Israel tells me what I need to know. When you have students at McGill blocking Jewish students from going to class, calling for intifada and for Jews to go back to Europe (among other hateful things) then the core issue isn’t a hatred of Israel but rather a hatred of Jews sparked by a war that was started with the intention of killing every Jew alive.
Once again, not all Palestine supporters believe this. I could just as easily say that all Israelis want Palestinians to burn alive. You're lumping everyone into one category which is the exact thing you're criticizing the other extremists of doing. This school shooting is terrible and what's happening in Palestine is terrible as well.
If they weren't supporting that they'd not tolerate calls for intifada on their encampment.
> Once again, not all Palestine supporters believe this. It doesn't matter if its not all of them. The fact of the matter is, the pro-palestine movement refuses to kick out Hamas supporters out of its ranks. If a conservative rally refuses to start kicking out people with nazi flags, theres naturally going to be some suspicion that the rally is a nazi-inclusive rally. You can't hold a big tent for Hamas supporters and expect people to not be suspicious or to dance around accusations of antisemitism, when thoses are actual good faith accusations.
Yeah I see your point. Been thinking lately about what a peace rally would look like if Pro Palestinians and Israeli's came together to ask for peace. Thing is, as a pro Palestinian myself, a rally like that would have to ask for a ceasefire and a two state solution. I just don't see Israeli supporters being ok with that. So, since you seem to be a level headed person, what would a peace rally ask for from your side of the issue?
1/2 // > Thing is, as a pro Palestinian myself, a rally like that would have to ask for a ceasefire and a two state solution. I just don't see Israeli supporters being ok with that. So, since you seem to be a level headed person, what would a peace rally ask for from your side of the issue? Huh? Thats not true at all. The two-state solution is the liberal zionist's principle, of whom most north american jews adhere to. But the pro-palestine movement as it exists in the west does not want two states, they "want all of 48'" and want an "intifada". Its a bit hard to try to reason with such maximalist demands. Like, you can go to any rally in Tel Aviv and you'll see palestinian flags being flown by proud zionists, because the establishment of a palestinian state does not necessarily exclude the existance of a Israeli one. Do not assume that Netanyahu being a slimy bastard is representative of the average Israeli's view on how to deal with the palestinians. The problem for me is that the opposite does not hold true. How many *actual* peace organizations do you know that came out of palestine in the past 50 years? I'm not talking about orgs that have the label peace in them. I mean orgs that disavow all attempts at armed violence in order to find a political solution that keeps Israelis safe while giving room for Palestinians to have their dignity at last? Because most of theses orgs are either a variation of dismantling Israel (an impossible demand that will render the jews defenseless in the face of the arab hordes that slaughtered them once and will do so again at the earliest opportunity) or to create a one state solution (a fantasy that would balkanize a first world nation into a civil war where the two sides that dont share the same language, culture, ideology, history, religion are supposed to share the same political system, and that will eventually die in an orgy of blood and violence.) I dont know a single palestinian org that looks for peace. The closest you get are palestinian orgs that only aim for trying to convince dissident jews within Israel to abandon the state. But any actual real attempt at peace always seems to be started by the Israeli side, and local zionists. You'd be right that most zionists are not keen on a ceasefire right now, especially as Hamas still exists and has stated it *will* attack again. Until you're capable of providing proof that Israelis will be existantially safe from physical genocidal violence, they're not going to stop hitting. October 7th evoked a deep emotional trauma of the Eisatzgruppen going from home to home slaughtering jewish families, and seeing most of Gaza cheer for this kind of sheer genocidal violence, where the goal was only to torture as many Israelis to death as they could, has convinced most of them that there is no possible political solution anymore. Nowadays, I'm completely clueless on how to possibly resolve the conflict. Netanyahu is only ever elected when the Israelis are cynical about the peace process, and he's been kicked out of the prime minister seat no less than 3 times once Israelis were promised a better future was possible with the palestinians. One of the first possible paths to go through is perhaps [shrinking the conflict](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/01/how-shrink-israeli-palestinian-conflict/617526/). Not trying to solve it, but breaking an impossible problem into small steps. Instead of going for a solution that solves every single problem they have, focusing on slowing down the rising number of friction that exists.
2/2// I didn't mean this comment to go on this long and I ran on the 10 000 character limit, but theres also this that I want to share. The one time Israel and Palestine almost made it. Bill Clinton almost made peace between the two with the Clinton Parameters, and its failure is one of his biggest regrest to this day. You can tell how pissed off he is at Yasser Arafat for failing to make peace when he had the chance, and how distraught he is by the whole experience Hillary had him explain the whole thing on her podcast https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-you-and-me-both-with-hill-71671764/episode/president-bill-clinton-134791615/ Heres a transcript of the podcast https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FOaU3k85ZrDGXE6ifeAxZmwKdsBDFoJxaME8Oj6KbTg/edit > **President Clinton** Late 1995, November. Okay. So after Rabin was killed, Peres was prime minister for a while. Then Netanyahu got in. Then in 1998, something truly remarkable happened. We had the only year, at that time, the first year in the history of Israel, when not a single solitary person was killed by a terrorist incident. And it was stunning. We finally had a year when it all worked. And it's impossible to believe now. But, I mean, you had the Israeli intelligence, Palestinian intelligence and the American CIA working hand in glove with others trying to keep people alive. It was fascinating. Okay. So then in 1998, there was an election in which the people of Israel said, let's try again for peace. And that's how Ehud Barak, who was the most decorated soldier in Israeli history, became prime minister. And this is the important thing for people to know. Now, this is not all that long ago, 25 years ago. We all were working together and we kept turning over more land to the Palestinians and kept, you know, moving forward on all these other issues. And finally, at the end of my term, near the end, we decided to meet at Camp David, because the Palestinians had still never actually said what they would accept. So we met at Camp David, and I never thought we'd get an agreement there. And all the stuff you read today, almost 100% of it is just hooey from people who either weren't there or have bad memories. And I was personally involved with this. This wasn't something handed over to my aides. So what we wanted to know at Camp David is how much will the traffic bear here? Where is there going to be a deal that the Palestinians will have a state, it will be sustainable economically and politically, and supportable, and it will lead to a total end of the conflict and a new era of partnership? Now, there were people who didn't like that, including Hamas. Hamas never signed on to this. Their goal was always to get rid of Israel. > **HRC** They've always been for the elimination of Israel. > **President Clinton** For the elimination, they wanted- yes- > **HRC** There has never been any doubt in their actions, their documents-. > **President Clinton** Never. > **HRC** Or anything else. > **President Clinton** So we worked for a little while after Camp David and both sides then asked me to offer a final proposal where they would basically fill in the blanks. And this is what our listeners need to know. This is what was offered, what Israel agreed to. I recommended that there be two states, that Israel is within the '67 borders, as the U.N. resolutions called for, with some land adjustments to cover 80-plus percent of the settlers on the West Bank, which were then under 100,000. Far fewer than now. And that the Palestinians would get the West Bank called for in the Oslo Accords. Plus Gaza, of course, plus 4% of Israel to make up for the 4% necessary to include the settlers, and that the West Bank and Gaza be connected by overhead highways that were subject to no checks, total free movement, and that there be, you know, agreed upon prisoner releases and all that so that we could settle the populations as much as possible. The Palestinians would get a capital in East Jerusalem. That was a big no-no in Israeli politics for years. You could never agree to divide Jerusalem. Ehud Barak's cabinet supported a capital in East Jerusalem for the Palestinians. It was a pretty good deal. I mean, it's unthinkable today. That's how close we were. There were listening posts in the West Bank, which Israel had, which they said at the time--they were right--they said we can't dismantle these now because of Saddam Hussein and because we don't have a peace agreement with Syria, with Assad. So we will let the Palestinians have equal access, in effect, every time we're up there, they can be up there. Because we all understood that if we had a peace agreement with a new state, the enemies of peace would try to kill the leaders of both sides for at least 3 or 4 years. > **President Clinton** And the Israelis accepted it. And the Palestinians wanted a few more blocks for Christian churches in the Old City. They wanted a clear say, which we gave them, on what countries would be in an international security force that we would put on the eastern flank of the Palestinian state. We were arguing over a few blocks of the old city of Jerusalem. So I laid all this out there. About six weeks before I left office, Yasser Arafat was in town. He came by to see me, and I wanted to see him alone. And keep in mind, the United Nations had designated Arafat to represent the Palestinians. So I asked him, I said, *Are we going to do this peace deal?* He said, Sure. I said, *No, no, no.* I said, *This is serious because I have a chance to go to North Korea and make an agreement with them that could end their nuclear program, end their missile program, and take a dark cloud off the future of North Asia. But an American president can't just drop down to North Korea for the first time since the end of the Korean War. I have to go to South Korea. I have to go to Japan, which still had prisoners in North Korea. I have to go to Russia and China, which were the co-sponsors of the peace.* He said, *Well, how long will it take?* I said, *About 12 days if I don't sleep.* And he said, *Oh, you can't do that.* It was the only time I was ever with Arafat where I saw tears in his eyes. He said, *You can't do that.* I said, *Why? Because you're going to sign this deal when we get it done, and it needs to look like I'm putting heavy pressure on you?* He said, *Sure, yes. You can't go away.* I said, *Okay, but you just tell me the truth. If you're not going to do this, you have to tell me.* He said, *My God, if we don't do it while you're here, it might be ten years, 20 years, maybe forever. We have to do it now.* He had never, ever lied to me. He was hard to get a commitment out of, but he never lied. And so he just... It never happened. I don't know whether he was afraid he would be killed immediately, but he certainly wasn't afraid. He spent the night in a different place for 20 years, every night. In other words, people were trying to kill him, too. All this time, everybody acts like all this is a free ride, you know? If you try to make peace between people who've been fighting, the people who have an interest in the fighting will try to stop you. So anyway, the date came and the date went. And I have now listened for over 20 years to people tell me why Camp David was a failure. It wasn't. It was never designed to get a final agreement. No one in their right mind who had ever been dealing with this believed that we could get an agreement at Camp David. What we could get is the Palestinians to tell us exactly where a deal might be, and then we'd push like crazy to get it. And even after I left, we had one more month in which they were working. And I was wearing Arafat out by then, I said, ***Why aren't you doing this? Don't you understand?*** He said, ***Well, the Israelis are too weak to make the deal now. Barak's going to lose the election.*** I said, ***He's going to lose the election because you let him get way out on his ledge and you haven't taken this deal. And instead you started the second intifada.*** I said, *But I still have a 74% approval rating in Israel and we're going to ratify this deal or defeat it in an election.* And he never said yes. He never said no. And he just, I mean, that's basically what happened. And we're living with this- that we could have had 25 years, imagine this, of a Palestinian state. > **HRC** Or 23 years. > **President Clinton** There'd be 23 years of a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza with no checkpoints, no stops, no nothing. And look what happened afterward. Ariel Sharon defeated Netanyahu for prime minister. And then the only question was, which hardliner would win? Because the Israeli voters by then said, ***Oh, my God, if they won't take what Barak and his cabinet offered, they're not going to take anything. We'll just elect the toughest guy we can.***
>Not all Palestine supporters believe this. While true, most do and there too much evidence supporting it. >You’re lumping everyone into one category which is exactly the same thing you’re criticizing other extremists of doing. I did not lump everyone together I just stated how there’s one group currently at McGill preaching violence and hatred on a daily basis.
Evidence you came out with .. ?
Although I haven't heard any Palestinian supporters publicly denounce any violence in Canada against Jews.
I've been to protests here. They always denounce it. And there's also usually lots of Jews there. This is because lots of Jews are anti-zionist.
Are they really blocking Jewish students? When did this happen?
As I’m not a McGill student I’m not there to bear witness to what they do or don’t do on the daily, but around the time when the encampment was first set up one of my friends was locked out of her class and physically blocked from entering the building it was in the very next day. She documented it and posted about it on her socials and reported it to the police but the police told her that it’s freedom of protest. She’s openly Jewish and wears a Magen-David pendant on her necklace.
do u mind sharing her social media post about it never heard of this
Was she targeted specifically while they let other students in? Or was this just a full on blocking everyone situation?
They aren’t blocking Jewish students any more than non-Jewish students. The rest of the claims are just straight up disinformation.
>When you have students at McGill blocking Jewish students from going to class > what evidence of this why will no one step up and point to the evidence of this what is this persistence in making claims and then flaking away when asked about them
They were replying to your comment where you first very clearly took a swipe at critics of Israel.
Call it what you want but im literally quoting exactly what these “critics” say. Is it okay to criticize Israel and its actions? Yes. Is it okay to hate the Israeli government, including Bibi? Yes. Is it okay to want peace and for a two state solution to be established? Yes Is it okay to say from the river to the sea Palestine will be free, implying the destruction of Israel and subsequent genocide/exodus of all Israelis? No. Is it okay to believe that Jews who hold the belief that they’re entitled to statehood in their ancestral homeland are evil and should be killed? No. Criticize Israel as much as you want but the moment diaspora Jews are attacked the argument becomes moot.
« From the river to sea » c’est une phrase utilisé par les Israéliens aussi, jsp pourquoi c’est problematic depuis octobre 2023 mais ça existait depuis au moins les 90s
No they clearly didn't? Anti-zionists doesn't mean simply being a critic of Israel. It means to actively believe in the dismantling and destruction of the state of Israel, which not only is an incredibly antisemitic belief to hold because it means believing the Jewish people (and presumably *only* the Jewish people) do not have a right to self-determination in their historic homeland; but it would also ensure the ethnic cleansing or genocide of Jews from Israel, which is.. kinda evil.
Anti-zionists do not believe that Jewish people don't have the right to self determination. Anti-zionists believe that EVERYONE should have that right, including Palestinians. Zionism by definition is a racist political ideology because it was never a land without a people, and making it exclusive to a specific OTHER people necessarily requires ethnic cleansing of an Indigenous population. Jews have always lived there, yes. But so have Muslims and Christians. A free Palestine is a free Palestine for EVERYONE. And Palestinians also deserve the "right of return." And to not have their houses and land stolen.
Everything you said is fully compatible with Zionism. It was never an exclusionary movement that denied the Palestinians their own nationalism.
They literally have roads Palestinians aren't allowed to use. They steal their houses and displace them. Israel controls their food, water, electricity. Palestinians within Israel have to go through checkpoints with IDs that Jews don't. Palestinians in the diaspora don't have right of return. Israel was founded on the Nakba. It's always been about colonialism, racism, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid.
> you have student at McGill blocking Jewish students from going to class… Where’d you read this? I go to McGill and the most I’ve heard was students protesting a class with a field trip to Israel, not students blocking Jews from going to class.
check recent news and videos about mcgill’s pro-palestine protests
I have been. Nothing about preventing Jewish students from going to class. Got a link you can share?
Very well said. A lot of people need to hear and understand that.
Unfortunately many will just ignore it and call me racist and genocide supporter instead of having a meaningful discussion.
Because hey, "Intifada" is just an Arabic word for uprising, right? /s That's been my experience in this subreddit as well. Got accused multiple times last week of actively supporting genocide simply because I said I'm Jewish and went to Israel recently. Boggles my mind honestly, but hey, what can you do.
Because some people are simpletons and can’t see that you as a person along with any other Jew or Israeli has no control over the action of the Israeli government just like how just like how most Palestinians and other Arabs have no control over the actions of Hamas and other Iranian proxies.
>The fact that you can’t even disassociate Jewish schools with Israel tells me what I need to know. You are literally the one who was doing so lol. I just answered you while you were pretending that people protesting in McGill are the reason why people shoot on schools.
Who's 'they'?
“They” are the people that shoot at Jewish schools and then take to the streets the very next day to preach about how “successful” the revolution is. Kinda like what happened in Toronto over the weekend and what I guarantee will happen tomorrow at some point or another.
Bruh we don't even know who shot the bullet yet and you're already blaming it on an entire movement. Get a grip
Be realistic. Who would shoot at a Jewish school for the fun of it? People who love and tolerate Jews?
Could be a stray bullet. Could be neo-nazis. Could be a false flag operation. Till i know i'm not blaming an entire movement
4 Jewish school shootings go by while a group yells intifada in the street. This guy : “Yeah what if it was a stray bullet huh???” Fucking hell
I only heard about 3, and the last 2 were over 6 months ago. I also listed that as one possible option. Really desperate to discredit me huh. If we're stooping that low, i could start arguing that it could be zionists who did it since they're probably in need of sympathy after israel massacred a dozen children in a refugee camp, but hey i wouldn't stoop that low now would i. Speculation makes us all look like dicks, and it's a game we can all play.
3 in Montreal, 1 in Toronto last week. Cope buddy. Israel dropped 17 kg of munitions right on Hamas dickheads. Incredible precision. The stockpile of munitions they kept hiding near children blew up and tragically killed civilians. And yet you still blame Israel and not Hamas. Much like you’d rather blame a stray bullet than the raging anti sémites shooting up schools in our country. Gtfoh.
the guy is on every tankie sub lol
But let’s ignore the fact that they were blasting an area designated for refugees in the first place
"Stockpile of munitions," is straight out of the hasbara playbook dude. Can you explain the mass Graves then? The Palestinians who were killed execution style just for being in a hospital? Blowing up crucial infrastructure? Preventing and destroying aid? And before you say human shields, IDF are documented using human shields. And before you say hamas base of operations, not only there was never proof, but IDF soldiers at one point used a gazan school as their own base of operations. And before you say hamas would steal the aid, IDF now have a cookbook out about how to eat and cook food stolen from Palestinian homes. Every accusation has been a confession.
A stray bullet could hit a school in a black neighborhood and nobody would start yelling racism
>“They” are the people that shoot at Jewish schools and then take to the streets the very next day to preach about how “successful” the revolution is. How many people do you believe you are talking about?
It doesn’t matter how many because it should be ZERO. There should never be any justification for shooting anything.
Every society are going to have criminal scum, but you are equating one or two piece of shit vandalizing a school and intimidating people with everyone protesting against Israel.
ur right we have no idea who did this but do u deny that a disproportionate number of suspects arrested for attakcs on jewish institutions in montreal have muslim-sounding names?
I mean, it's 1 v 0 at this point? I mean sure i'll agree. Doesn't mean i'm gonna just assume every hate crime against a jewish institution moving forward is automatically pro-palestine protesters. Especially since zionists have a knack for false flagging. And like, even if the guy turns out to be muslim, doesn't mean you can blame the entire movement for it. Then push them into ghettos to "protect the population". Then stop humanitarian aid from reaching them and bombing refugee camps oh wait this collective blame shit really is a drug huh
im not talking about the movement, im talking about recognizing if theres a anti-semitism problem in contemporary muslim culture in mtl do u think there is
I believe there is. I think most educated people are able to separate zionism and jews as a whole, but definitely not all. I also believe there is a big islamophobia problem in the jewish community, especially seeing as a vocal majority of the jewish population of montreal supports the actions of israel. Just as many muslims cannot separate zionists and jews, many jews cannot separiate muslims from promoters of the shariah. Wouldn't you agree?
no, i dont think its islamophobia what false flag operation has occurred in mtl im aware of the restaurant owners in winnipeg who made up the anti-semitic attack. only case i know of [Hate-crime attack on café staged, Winnipeg police say, after owners charged with mischief | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/bermax-winnipeg-antisemitic-arrest-1.5109224)
If you can't agree there's an islamophobia issue, i'm afraid you've lost a lot of credibility, as well as my interest in this discussion.
so u only interested in discussion with people who have same opinions as u already not interseted in changing minds, persuading i think a lot of jewish montrealers can be careless and indifferent about palestinian human lives. i dont equate that to islamophobia necessarily. do u understand distinction
Not really, it's just that i've had more than my share of arguments with zealous zionists and am not really interested in having more. If someone can have a balanced point of view then that's interesting to me. I mean yeah, some are careless, and some downright fucking hate muslims. Some are openly advocating for israel to "finish the job". The mayor of hampstead could probably vouch for that. As for false flags, outside of the one in winnipeg, it's also a signature move of israel to destabilize neighbooring countries because it profits from the infighting. The most historically notable one is the Lavon affair, but there's no lack of modern examples. Now i'm not saying all jews are zionists or anything like that, but especially in the context of the recent refugee camp massacre and support for israel being at an all time low, i wouldn't put it past certain people
I guess it's what happen when you let antisemit extremist spew their propaganda freely on all social media, peoples Actually believe that Jews are commiting a genocide and bombing refugee tent in Palestine right now...
I mean, Israel is bombing Rafah let’s not erase what they’re doing here - but targeting Jews for any reason in Canada is NOT ok and should be condemned. The world’s Jewish population is *not* the Israeli government.
Most educated people understand that, but when you have pop star like Ariana Grande or Katy Perry spewing propaganda and lies at their moronic viewers it turns antisemite 8 times out of 10 and then you have people doing shit like that... And Israel is bombing target in Rafa yes, doesn't mean they are TARGETING refugee or committing genocide.
Let's condemn the attack on the Jewish school without vilifying Palestinian refugees or victims of war. Spreading misinformation and harmful stereotypes only perpetuates cycles of violence and hate. Let's address the issue at hand with clarity and respect, and avoid using tragedies to justify discrimination or hatred towards entire groups of people.
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Bruh... Peoples vilify Jews and the Jewish woman and children's who got raped to death on October 7 on a daily basis... Its getting really hard to figure out who is really antisemite and who just hate the whole country of Israel... We literally saw multiple video of Palestinian cheering up when Hamas was parading that dead woman downtown... We know they hide terrorist, we know they vote for Hamas, we know they eat with them, we know they celebrate their victory and rape with them... How can you feel more bad for these peoples than for Israel peoples who are trying to survive in a region where everybody wants them dead...
Bruh... Peoples vilify Jews and the Jewish woman and children's who got raped to death on October 7 on a daily basis... It getting really hard to figure out who is really antisemitism and who just hate the whole country of Israel... We literally saw multiple video of Palestinian cheering up when Hamas was parading that dead woman downtown... We know they hide terrorist, we know they eat with them, we know they celebrate their victory and rape with them... How can you feel more bad for these peoples than for Israel peoples who are trying to survive in a region where everybody wants them dead...
If you want to get involved with guns with that conflict just take a one way plane ticket to Palestine that's it.... We don't need that here and for fuck sake don't target children's
Israel destroyed their airport in the early 2000s. But also until there's proof of who did it, let's not blame an anti-genocide movement.
Yeah, might be budhists.....
"This isn't who we are." It is now.
Who's "we" ?
Society
Damn bro that's deep
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Each time the pro palestinian crowd shoots up a jewish school, more jews emigrate to Israel, all while Canada imports Palestinians. Canada will end up like Palestine and Israel will end up like Canada
No one wants to end up like Canada right now
It is still probably a better place than 99.9% of the globe. I would take Canada over Israel any day of the week, especially my current region. Maybe I would move to Switzerland instead, but this is about it.
Great call
r u aware of jews actually emigrating to israel from montreal on account of stuff like this
So you mean Israel will later invade Canada and we’ll become an open air prison too?
If we launch a surprise attack against them and get some ebin kill count, then yeah, that’d be the casus belli.
If you shoot up a school you deserve jail for life and if you aren't Canadian be sent back wherever you from after. Yes there's a genocide in Palestine, yes Hammas is as bad and deranged as IDF but shooting up a school in a country that most of the population can't even point the middle east on the map you are a sick fuck and deserve to rot in a hole
Every time one of these gets posted, without an actual suspect, more and more Zionists come out of the woodwork.
Oh no! Zionists! RUN!!! Are the Zionists in the room right now? Did they traumatize you with their belief that they are allowed a country like every other nation? Much like Palestinians can have theirs if they stop with the terrorist shit?
They've said time and again they'll never acknowledge a Palestinian state, regardless of anything. Netanyahu famously admitted to funding Hamas and propping them up in Gaza so they could keep Gaza and the West Bank separated in order to prevent an official Palestinian state. Most if not all of the officials in Israel have spouted genocidal rhetoric. The March of return was a peaceful demonstration in Gaza. BIG emphasis on peaceful. The IDF slaughtered many of them anyway, including journalists and children.
Never acknowledge, that's why they've made multiple offers. You're conflating the views of one fringe to the official stance of the country as a whole for 76 years. You know who HAS said they'll never acknowledge Israel? Hamas and the PLO (and the current PA by extension). Menawhile, even Netanyahu knows its inevitable - his current stance is him being a hardliner because it's the only thing keeping him out of court and out of jail for his corruption charges. EVERYTHING he has done and said politically for the past 6 years has been about that. But here's a comment I made collecting his actual quotes on the subject https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/XApwL9I0I8 So, you're wrong. As you are on 99% of the other nonsense shit takes straight out the Pallywood playbook you spew back here uncritically and unresearched (and because you're probably too dim to realize it, that's just a sarcastic rejoinder to you accusing people of being Hasbara if they counteract even a single of your point with facts).
They've never made a reasonable offer for a Palestinian state. "He's only hardlining now because--" No. This has been their stance all along, only now all the cards are on the table because they've pushed themselves into a corner with this genocide. Would YOU acknowledge a state who stole your land and massacred your people to claim it? Can't blame them for not acknowledging Israel.
You're right, we shouldn't acknowledge Palestinians then, since they're the actual colonizers and land stealersand ethnic cleansers in this case. Those 7th century Muslims weren't fucking around. I could rebuke your nonsense claims with actual historical evidence that you're full of crap, but you're clearly too delusional and sold on the lie of what Zionism is as to what it really seeks. But hey, you can still read this and educate yourself: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Palestinians (tldr: they're not really distinct from the rest of the Arab populations and some of them are even of Jewish ancestry. And it confirms that they first arrived there as colonizers. But the money quote is: "Academic standards for the use of historical evidence are rarely followed in the Palestinian historical discourse, and evidence that is antagonistic to the national cause is either disregarded or dismissed as false or hostile.') And despite that, I STILL support the establishment of a Palestinian state. As do almost every jew and Zionist I know. Just not INSTEAD of Israel, but at its side. I've proven that even Netanyahu was for it, but you're still convinced that your head canon is what's actually true.
[Here's a Ted Talk by a Jewish geneticist](https://www.ted.com/talks/nathaniel_pearson_the_splendid_tapestry_how_dna_reveals_truths_ancient_lasting/transcript) that literally proves that Palestinians are indigenous to the Levant and share most of their DNA with people from ~3700 years ago. Sure, Palestinians might have been arabized. But that makes them no less Indigenous; just gives them a different language and religion (many of them are still Jewish, though -- but that doesnt matter to zionists because being Palestinian bars them from returning home regardless). Also, your cited section or "money quote," is from [this work](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230621633_5) written by Meir Litvak who is an Israeli nationalist as well as the chair of Middle Eastern history at Tel-Aviv University. So not biased at all, right?
Tell me the dude didn't actually call this a school shooting lmfao
Typical “anti-zionism is not anti-semitism” guy
Oh fuck yeah i stand by that 100% :) Good to know my comment history is living rent free in your head. It's also a fucking disgrace to the hundreds of murdered kids and their families who died in actual school shootings, to call it this way to usurp the sympathy. Call it a hate crime all you want, but one bullet being shot at an empty school in the middle of the night is in no way a school shooting.
> A shooting takes place > It’s in front of a school > Not a school shooting because only one bullet hit the school and no one was inside Also define Zionism for me I’m curious as the what you think it means.
Kinda like zionism, school shooting has evolved to represent a very specific situation. Modern zionism is the belief that the jewish people are entitled to own the territory of israel as their homeland. It, by definition, relegates muslims to the rank of second class citizens by giving jews "god given rights to the land". I know you're about to pull some technicality out of your ass, kinda like that school shooting bullshit, but i'll tell you right now i see clearly through the bs.
Only one side considers the other second class citizens, fam. There are arabs on the knesset, there's even an arab party, and there was an israeli prime minister who was criminally convicted by an arab judge. Arabs make up 20% of Israel's demographic, that's 2 million arabs, which is 60 times the total number of jews living in arab or muslim countries across the entire world (around 30 000). Hell, not only is israel the only country in the middle east where a straight arab man has full human rights, it is the only country in the middle east where ALL arabs have full equal rights, on par with every citizen, regardless of race creed, gender, or culture. Arab israelis even had the "privilege" of being massacred alongside jews on October 7th! Oh, and they get fucking pissed when you call them palastinians. This isn't an arab vs jews thing, this is a, "you already got 3/4 of the land of israel in the form of jordan, and would have gotten the better half of what's left ('47 partition), all you had to do was literally just stop attacking me as you have since you colonized this land circa 600 CE as I am sick of killing you and accept that jews live here, as we have since circa 1000 BCE, forming the first kingdom on this land since the Natufians circa 10 000 bce and you could have been a prospering nation 5x over" kind of thing
If someone went out to shoot a Muslim school, I bet you would be foaming at the mouth about how it’s a hate crime
Bruh read the last paragraph of.my comment, then delete yours
its weird how you’re more mad at the wording used in a statement than the factor that there is yet another instance of a Jewish school being shot at
Who said i'm mad? My comment included a "lmfao", you seem to have trouble reading buddy.
You know that shutting the fuck up is always an option?
Right back at you buddy :)
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nah this is a bad take
https://preview.redd.it/c0bic6h5nh3d1.jpeg?width=394&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a66531059d2b80bfc7e194aec86daff1b35ebcea