She deserves to know what her relationship really is. Wouldn’t you want all the facts about your own life? She’s staying with a liar and a cheater and she has no idea. That’s so so unfair. Please tell her the truth. From that point on it’s up to them to fix their marriage or not
I generally lean towards always tell them. I would want to know, regardless of what it is, emotional or physical cheating. It seems most people would want to know as well. Some don't, some prefer ignorance oddly enough. However in your case it's a bit more complicated, and it appears she already knows and has just turned a blind eye to it, and is choosing to lie to herself. Idk if getting more explicit with her on the details is gonna help or harm more. It's more than obvious that he has some serious personal issues, and she's well aware of that. If she wanted more details she had the ability to ask you anything she wanted when you guys talked. She didn't, so I'd take that as a sign to move on.
You did everything you should've when you found out he was lying, and I don't think you have anything to feel guilty about. Going no contact was the only logical choice and you did that as well. I'd take the lessons you learned from this and move on. Karma will take care of the rest in regards to him, and what they choose to do now is on them.
Yes. Thank you. This is the way. Plus, after reading various replies from the OP, it seems that perhaps her fixation on telling the wife more stuff is OPs way of re-engaging with this whole situation. The wife could have asked already if she wanted to know the play by play details.
So your two values are not ruining families, and being honest? While you weren’t initially responsible for hurting his wife/family, now that you know, keeping it to yourself isn’t moral in any way. If you think you would be ruining his family by telling, then just change the situation. What if he was a murderer, into CP, etc…? You would feel morally obligated to keep it a secret to protect his family? Come on, lady.
I'm voting for not telling. Remain NC, and consider this a lesson learned.
She already knows the broad strokes of what happened. Adding more details will only hurt her.
She doesn't know that we were physical because I lied when he told me that telling the truth would end their marriage. And I downplayed how often I was seeing him in a week and how much non-physical affection and connection was really going on.
I think about her a lot and what does she want? I already know she wants to repair a marriage that's had a small breach of trust, but does she want to repair a marriage that has had a big breach in trust? Am I being fair to her by robbing her of knowledge that would change her outcome? Did I decide she should stay married and manipulated for that outcome?
NC is a no-brainer. Even if they can't work their issues out and get divorced I'm done with him. At the time I considered friendship because I was instantly turned off romantically by him, but still primed to miss his company and knew how hard it would be to find another gym partner. I still don't have a new one. However, I think about what it would take to get me to lie for over a year, and I know that I couldn't keep up a front for that long and I don't want to deal with wondering how he could do that to a friend.
Okay, how many other people know about the affair? (I mean real people, not anonymous profiles on Reddit. )
If no one else knows, I think that you should keep quiet. If anyone else knows, you should probably tell her.
And I am NOT saying this because "you're probably going to get caught anyway." This may be true, but it's not my reasoning. The reason you should come clean if anyone else knows is because a large part of the pain caused by an affair stems from *embarrassment*.
People love to go on about how they don't care what others think, but it's so much bullshit. People care very much what others think. People care about their reputations far more than they'll admit.
If no one else knows, then her reputation is safe. This becomes an issue for them to solve (or not) between the two of them (absent important information, yes, but still their business. Keep out of it.)
If anyone else knows, though, when she *does* find out (and she will, if others know,) she will have to deal with the additional (and often greater) pain of humiliation. (And no, she *shouldn't* be humiliated by what she had no part in, but whatever. People aren't always logical. )
I think a lot depends on your conversation with her, and how much she really wanted to know. Oh man this is a tough one.
I do think it’s pretty shitty that he’d lie to you, carry through with an affair, and not hold himself accountable when the inevitable occurred. I’m sure he has lots of great qualities, but spelled out as above it makes one wonder if you are actually the first and last betrayal. Worst case scenario she wastes another decade and he does it again. I think that is the thought that would keep me up if I were in your shoes.
If the circumstances/excuses truly exist that make this situation a one-off, then perhaps their love will be strong enough to survive whichever intensity of betrayal is revealed.
I guess I land on that she deserves to hear the truth that her husband is unwilling to tell her the full truth…that kinda feels like a big 3rd strike to me after lying to you and carrying through the betrayal
My Father Said “If a Married Man wants to sleep with you, You are Not the First and Won’t Be the Last” This has become True in my experience. Let the wife wrastle with that. You, get your ass into the Gym to meet New Available People and Lesson Learned! Move On, Life is Short.
Stay NC with him, if he cheated *with* you, he'll cheat ON you. Just from what you've described here, it sounds like he's just a really good manipulator. He had you believing his lies for over a year. Also I'm curious as to how your perception of him as an 'extreme boy scout' was built. What ideas or qualities about him give you that impression? Keep talking with the wife at least for a little while if you're both open to the conversation. If she wants to know more, he honest but not too blunt or harsh about it. She may need more information to have closure, even if she knows it would hurt. Some people are like that. Or she may need evidence to nail his ass to the wall in a possible divorce. 🤷 😅 Whatever the case, he lied to both of you and now that you know, it's your choice whether you want to continue to believe him. Once someone has been proven to be capable of lying to you, it should call into question everything about them, including their overall character and personality, not just things they say. Read past his words, and even question whether his behaviors are authentic. Learn what his behaviors mean and you'll be able to tell.
A lot of flowery language to say “I’m fucking a married guy, can I stroll off into the sunset with him and pretend I’m blameless?”
The answer is no. Also, he’ll cheat on you, too.
Haha, I haven't fucked him in months because fucking was rare like I said. And I went no contact as soon as I knew he was married. Not everything is about sex.
The sex part aside, I never want to see him again. Which I said but okay. 👍 I support however making that comment made your giant troll feelings feel better. Must be super fulfilling.
Tell the truth. The truth is always right. He already ruined his marriage, only she doesn’t know it yet. Tell her so they can start to repair. She deserves to know.
First of all, you’re not causing anything, he put himself, and you in the situation. He can deal with his own consequences… he knows, because everyone knows. His job is to make one woman feel special. The second that he starts making another feel special, he’s cheating, the rest is just digging himself deeper.
He may well have been your soulmate, probably was. That happens. There’s one person who can make your soul resonate and make you feel that way, if you’re lucky enough to have a soulmate at all… but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have free will, maybe he married the wrong person, fate can only put two people on a path that meets. It can’t decide what they do on their way there…
If you feel like you need to get that off your chest, I say take precautions first, because a man who’s capable of losing everything, is capable of being very dangerous.
Tell her… I’d have said tell her regardless, the reason he told her, was for damage control, he’s a master manipulator. Fucking hide first, but nuke him and let that be a lesson to all the other would be cheaters.
This is not complicated, y'all are just way too caught up in your feelings. Walk away, their relationship shouldn't have anything to do with you now that you've cut it off. I know you got hurt, and as the wound is healing it feels like there's an itch you need to scratch. But that's just how healing feels sometimes. Fessing up to the "emotionally explicit" nature of the affair or whatever will NOT give you the relief you think it will, everyone will walk away feeling shittier.
I'm not caught up in feelings or feeling hurt. It's easiest to communicate to other people with the feelings involved. Although, I intentionally did not say I was hurt over this because to me it feels more like */*oh darn, I have to switch plans today that I thought were great but other plans are great too*/*. I'm really burdened by how culpable I am if I lie to keep this secret. The secret that the level of betrayal goes far beyond what she's being told. I'm plagued by internal debate and struggle to let it go.
Btw, I'm alexithymic so I often don't experience emotions in a way that's not numb or the rare complete nuclear option, thankfully not common at all. I think about what I might feel, more than I feel intuitively. But I learned that about myself when I was very young and had mandatory therapy to help me. I got interested in resolving what was missing and I like to think I've taken compensatory measures to get to normal.
It's a fact that derails conversations into people trying to figure out what kind of alien lifeform or sociopath I am. Which I don't think should be the focus since I'm still a good person who wants to do the correct thing and values ethics.
So maybe it's not complicated to you, but I would want to know if I was betrayed at a 10% level, or 70-90% level. It would make a difference to me, and for the life of me, this is a quandary that I can't solve because I don't know her opinion on "whether ignorance is bliss" or "knowledge is power". What if I'm wrong and she's not happy with my choice to lie?
The wife knew full well to be suspicious and has had plenty of opportunity to ask OP about details. No need to rub her nose in who did what to whom if she would rather not have that imagery in her head.
According to OP, the wife knew her husband was hanging our with a new woman best friend AND lying about his age, that he was divorced, and the number of his kids. The wife knew perfectly well that this whole situation was messed up. She didn't think they were just friends.
I find you a bit hard to read, maybe it would be more helpful if you stated the facts. What I think I'm getting is that you had a sexual and romantic relationship with a married man, believing he was in the process of divorcing his wife, she found out about you two, but believes it was only an emotional affair, was convinced by cheating partner to not talk to you, but then she confronted you and he asked you to not tell her that it was a full affair?
If I'm correct, I would prefer to know. An unloyal partner is a disease and cheating is a symptom.
Walking away will most likely hurt the wife anyways, just over a longer period of time. He isn’t going to change. If you do nothing, you’re just waiting until they’re older and have even more time and probably emotion invested before it fractures.
On the other hand, this woman held all the information and didn’t see fit to let you make an informed decision, so why should you extend that courtesy to her?
She should now about his inability to be honest. Trust is the foundation of a healthy relationship. If they rebuild their marriage on a lie when it does come out (and it will) it will cause a lot more harm. She should know and have a chance to decide if it’s worth it or better for her to leave. Children are better coming from a family whose parents separated but had healthy mental states than parents who stood together and have a strained relationship because of unshared resentment/lies/mistrust/infidelity. He broke up his family the second he slept with you. She has no idea that he was “in love “ with another woman , she’s being manipulated and lied to in order to keep their relationship. There’s a reason you feel bad and your ETHICAL side wants to tell her, it’s the best thing for the WHOLE family. Tell her.
No contact, leave them alone, it's not your problem. He made his bed he can sleep in it. Block him cut him off, you are too easily swayed by his bs, he has been playing you the whole time.
No contact!
If it is agreed, then why are you trying to jump back in and restir the pot. Wife will call you if she wants your details. Part of NC is to stop fixating on them.
I'm fixating on whether I'm in line with my moral value system. On the other side of this issue is a person that I don't have any real connection to but she's a thinking, feeling person that deserves my best behavior now that I know she exists.
People want to assume I'm doing this for drama, revenge, or stirring the pot. That's on them. I just want to feel right about myself and my integrity. I don't lie on principle and try to be a tactful, kind, truth teller. It fucking bothers me that I did lie because I was in a rush and making a split decision about what would be least painful for her to hear. Is that really the right call? This is a big thing to lie about I have the right to contemplate and process if it's a lie I want to stick with.
Trust me when I say this…. She knows. She knew the whole time. She just didn’t have proof. And this may sound odd, but you confirming it will do a lot of irreversible damage. Why bring more chaos to their lives and possibly yours? It’s done and over with. Let it go and move on.
"Telling the truth will scratch my ethical concerns and remove my burdensone rumination that I'm now culpable for what I did because I know now that I'm supporting a lie. Although, I might take on the new burden of feeling like my intervention derailed reconciliation and I don't want that either."
She knows, she doesn't need all the details or have the knife twisted. He says your his bestfriend and cheated on his wife having sex with you, she knows that, she isn't unaware of the seriousness. That's why she'd prefer if you were just removed from their life. It shouldnt be a situation the 3 of you are in, just the two of them. She isn't asking for details or interrogating you to know the extent. I think you telling her is more about wanting to alleviate your own guilt, to scratch that ethical itch as you put it.
at this point it seems the best thing you can do is nothing, I don't really see a positive of any further involvement
Star Trek solved this dilemma for us -the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. Will telling his wife benefit her or her children in any way - most likely not. She married the guy and has her reasons for forgiving him for what he has fessed up to - she probably suspects there is more to it but is willing to let it go for the sake of her family. You can have the guilt of not telling her or the guilt of possibly wrecking other people’s lives - either way is a no win situation so you pick the one that does the least harm
Thank you for this perspective, it's what runs in my head when I think about it, only it's more concise and I hadn't considered maybe she knows more than she's been told because of intuition.
How do I overcome the guilt of lying for the greater good though? Or my doubts about manipulating her into what I think is the greater good? How much freedom of choice am I removing from her?
It's one thing to forgive a small breach of trust, another to forgive a massive breach of trust. I hate making her think it's small, without knowing what she would want to know.
You shouldn't be able to overcome the guilt. You did a despicable thing and the result is the guilt you have for having contributed to the destruction of a marriage by having an affair with a married man.
The best outcome ahead of you is to use this experience to mold you into a better person who won't ever do something so reprehensible again. You should also hope karma doesn't visit you when you marry.
Read the details. I thought he was divorced. I never would have pursued him if I knew he was married and I instantly cut back to texting only when I suspected something weird was up, followed by going NC when I confirmed the suspicion.
Going forward I plan to ask divorcees for their divorce papers. I can't do better than that.
The question is how much do I let his wife know, and if it's not everything, how do live with the dissonce of not telling her everything? Should I err on her experience being one of ignorant bliss or powerful knowledge? Why?
I feel guilty because I already lied once about nothing physical happening and claimed it was all an emotional affair.
I'm not going to feel guilty about not detecting his lies sooner. The whole human race is screwed if omniscient is the bar we need to hit to feel good about ourselves.
No one can fault you for not knowing he was married. Very few married people openly admit they are married and looking for a little action on the side. But you continued to have contact, albeit limited, with him after the fact. You should've immediately cut off all contact with him once you realized he was married. That's on you. As for the guilt, it's yours to bare, regardless of where you feel it comes from. Learn from your experience and don't repeat the same mistake.
I just said that I immediately cut off contact when I had my suspicions that something was weird **confirmed**, namely that he was married?
I had a week before that where I refused to meet him because things felt off and I texted him a bit during that one week of suspicion.
The very last time I saw him was the time that he owned up to being married, being older than he said, and having more kids than he said. I haven't texted him since then, except when his wife had us group text. You're preaching but I don't know who you're preaching to since I did everything you're saying a person should do.
What are you not understanding about the timeline?
What I understand is that after you "immediately cut him off", you then chose to maintain a friendship with him "with his wife's permission, of course", because it was supposedly important to his mental health. What's wrong with you? Haven't you contributed enough damage to their marriage? And further along in your post you hem and haw about what to do about the whole situation. What you should do is leave them both the hell alone. His wife has enough problems without you in the picture. And get counseling.
The same day he told me he was married I agreed I would go into being platonic as platonic can be if his wife was completely informed and okay with it, but not on his word that she was okay with it, because he's a liar.
I insisted that if being friends was going to happen then I had to hear it directly from her.
On the call, that happened that night, she said she was okay with us having a much much much pared back friendship and outlined her conditions. I could tell she would rather that I wasn't friends with him at all, so I stuck to the agreement I originally said. If I felt his wife was informed and okay with us being friends then I'd be friends. She wasn't either of those things, so I didn't contact him again after that. Other than one text calling him selfish and cowardly and that I didn't want to be his friend.
There's no need to keep explaining yourself. What happened was a direct result of his lying to you. What happened after that was you whipping a dead horse for some crazy reason. Close that chapter in your life, move on from it, and never put yourself in that position again. There's really nothing else you can do.
I'm confused. I thought you went non-contact with the family (which seems correct). So, who are you going to lie to? Minding your own business and keeping out of their business is not lying. If the wife wants to know the gory details, let her ask you. She has had plenty of opportunities to ask and had plenty of reason to be suspicious. So if she isn't asking, you would only be being cruel (or bragging or lonely?) to keep picking at the wound.
Tell her. Please tell her. PLEASE, PLEASE TELL HER. Allow her to decide. If you do not tell her, you are not protecting a family.
He told you he was divorced. The wife DESERVES to know that. He lied about how many kids he has. THE WIFE OF SAID CHILDREN DESERVES TO KNOW THAT.
With better information, people make better decisions. It’s clear he’s left the marriage and role of father in his own ways. Please, do not withhold this from the wife. Tell her. Trust that she will use this information to make the best decision. They might go to therapy and move through it, they might get a divorce, that is not up to you.
Do not let her go forward without telling her what she is married to and is raising a family with. In all likelihood, he will do this again.
You did not do anything wrong when engaging with a “divorced” man. But now you have the responsibility to bring to light what was kept in the dark.
Alright I'm not going to get into objective morals because the world's not binary. This sounds blunt but I mean in sincerely: do whatever helps you sleep at night. You're a party that was tossed into a salad of way more ingredients than you signed up for. You have all the power because you deserve all the power. You were transparent, the other person lied. That being said, if your personal morality says saying something will give you relief, do it, and fu k the haters that say you're causing this-this-and this. If you want to take a deep breath and leave this dude to handle his own filth and conscious, that's okay too, wash your hands. Utilitarianism only really does any good when all parties buy in. Do you, because in all this you deserve to treat YOURSELF the best.
Holy shit! Do you understand how brainwashed you are? You are/ were being lied to by a manipulative person whose wife was also a manipulative person. This is next level, dark triad shit. You are caught up in some kind of disgusting game. These two sick people are playing psychotic games at your expense. Go no contact with these disgusting people and seek therapy immediately. I have no idea why you’re even concerned about their relationship. You need to be concerned about you, your family and your marriage. They have clearly brainwashed you and you are a pawn and some kind of sick disgusting game they’re playing. You need to understand that you have been severely manipulated. Your misplaced concern for them has me sick to my stomach. Please get help.
He helped me out of a dark time.
Feeling hurt here is the equivalent of not liking frog, but enjoying a meal that had frog hidden in it. I don't suddenly want to throw it all on a pile of garbage and light it on fire for revenge. I'm not going to go back for more frog, but the frog has already been eaten and enjoyed. Then it turned into a shit. Several things in life are perishable and not expected to last, but we get so much joy out of it anyway.
Compared to having several loved ones die unexpectedly, being lied to doesn't really register as much of anything. It's not like he murdered my family or made me suffer a drastic life loss.
If he cheated once, he will cheat again. He knew what to say to help you in ur dark times and get u in bed, like u said he was lying. U were soul mates if 1 is lying to the other. His wife has the right to know what her husband was up to and its up to her to decide if she wants to divorce or go to couples counseling. Did you know he was married before sleeping with him? If so, you were half the problem. And his wife is the victim of both her husband's infidelity and you covering it up.
I lied and denied anything physical happened. I also minimized the emotional connection. I don't think I should be detailed, but feel emotionally uncomfortable and this persistent moral itch because I lied to her. I keep wondering about what she wants. She's facing the most consequences. She has one husband who she can't easily be done with and replace within minutes, whereas I have a lot of current and future friends to replace him.
What would she tell me to do if she heard my moral dilemma? I feel like respecting her in this situation is the priority. But at the same time I want them to succeed as a family and don't want to create the chaos of correcting the lie I told a week ago. By lying, I've manipulated an outcome towards what I think should be, but what about her thoughts and feelings?
I know she wants to stay with the man who she thinks betrayed her about 10% of the way. The reality is anywhere on the 70-90% betrayal scale, does that fit what she wants?
Oh. I see. I somehow didn't get that. You probably said that but there were a lot of details so I guess I didn't pick up on this. That is tough. I would assume that she knows or is sufficiently unsure and untrusting about it that she will recognize his betrayal in the future and if she doesn't, that means she is not ready to see it.
OP said the wife was only told by both him and OP that they just had a secret friendship, not a secret relationship. I think OP should tell, as this woman thinks her marriage was not broken. Also, OP: you would be allowing her to decide whether or not she wants to stay married to a cheater. Either way, she and the kids are already going to be hurt, because they will eventually find out. And, even if they don’t, his conscience will bleed out somehow. Be it through his admittance, another affair, or the way he inevitably emotionally checks out. You’re right: you’re responsible NOW. If you don’t tell her, you’ll be guilty going forward.
But what if in 20 years they are happy! I believe he has what it takes to mend his marriage and not check out. I believe he genuinely cares about her and was an idiot.
Not telling her gives her, their kids, and him the best shot at happiness probably. What you listed could happen, but what about the possible happy outcomes?
I keep thinking down the same branch of thought that you're expressing and rejecting it because telling her seems too hard and unpredictable. I get caught in only thinking about the assurity of it bringing a negative outcome versus the optimism that not telling her brings a positive outcome. But I don't know. I'm not omniscient nor am I going to make a better decision for a grown woman I don't know than she could make herself if she knew all the info. So I come full circle to thinking again that I should tell her even if I think it's hard and puts everybody in the position (for better or worse) that she chooses to respond to his actions with.
I talked with my therapist and he said I may think that honesty is the best policy but that implies it isn't the only policy and exceptions exist to every policy. What if giving people their best (perceived) shot at happiness is the best policy? I don't know about him on a moral level anymore, but like I'm one to judge because I don't know about myself on a moral level anymore.
All very true, however I think you’re forgetting one thing: it would all still be a lie. Right now she and her kids think he is one person, while you know that isn’t true.
Consider it a different way. If you have a friend whose family sent her to university, but you find out she had actually been kidnapped on day two. They will never find out otherwise in this scenario. They think she just cuts contact with them for the rest of their lives. Would you tell them? They can more or less be somewhat happy not knowing, but the only way they have a chance of her living is if you do tell them (though, she could also already be deceased. You can’t know.)
At the end of the day, it’s what you can live with. If you were her, would you want informed consent? I know I would. For all you know, there were many other “you’s” and he’s just a phenomenal actor. Either way, she may be sleeping with someone that slept with another person, and that may be unforgivable to her. She has a right to know from someone involved. You can also ask to meet her directly. Ask her if she would like you to tell her the full truth, just don’t say what it is yet. That way, if she doesn’t want to know, she can turn you down and keep her blinders on.
Edit: typos.
It would still be a lie. Yet, where does the line on noble lie and ignoble lie get drawn. Ask people if they're happy lying exists because of how many people are alive or free today because people lied to remove them from the reach of the Nazi descent and they'll say yes. They may even attribute their life to an ancestor being saved through lying. (Extreme example that I couldn't really contend with in therapy)
I would of course talk about finding out about a kid napping. There's no ramifications to that, and all upsides to being transparent. Like protecting her life and happiness and their lives as they know it and their happiness.
So to save a life is a noble reason to lie. No question.
What about to save pain?
What about making 7+ people happy, and one of those people is uninformed? And by staying uninformed, they remain happy? (I think the kids should be uninformed about their dad's and mom's sex lives so I don't count them as potentially wrongfully uninformed.)
What if it's too late in life for her to start over?
Is it right to lie to protect her from the hardship of feeling stuck with him no matter what?
I don't know her exact age but she doesn't have a career safety net, only a degree she never decided on using, and is old enough to have four adult children and one high schooler. What if she's only forgiving him so she can avoid financial suffering?
The kids being nearly all adults sways me further towards telling her the truth. IMO it really reduces the downside risk of ‘destroying’ a family. If their marriage is as strong as you believe then the likely outcome would be a cordial long term situation, even if there is short term pain and divorce.
My wife’s parents split when she was about 20. It still fucking sucked but ultimately was for the best. Some challenging issues for the kids to work through as adults, but perhaps more important for personal growth and understanding the real world and human nature than continuing to believe falsehoods (a lot more to unpack there but you get my point)
There are certain things i could forgive. I think you should tell her. He will more than likely cheat again. I believe this because of how capable he has been with manipulating this situation. People are willing to work on a relationship with trust and honesty, but your not protecting her, and it’s so detrimental that she shares her body with him, thinking its a safe closed off space, when it’s not. He could bring her a disease, get someone pregnant ect. I would not be ok with that at all! I would rather have my family dynamic change, and have the option moving forward with a loyal partner. Im not in it to be betrayed. And if he thinks your soul mates that’s even worse. I want to be with someone who has a love like me. Not a half ass attempt, but a deep urgent true love. Please tell her, don’t let her waste her life while he lies to her. He won’t change, but she deserves to know, and go from there.
If you were to tell her, *you* would feel better bc you would not be “supporting a lie.” *She* would feel like shit. ***Their children*** would feel like shit. And he would feel like shit, but whatever; he’s a cheating cheater who cheats. The point is, you don’t get to do that. You don’t get to throw a bomb at that family because *you* feel bad about “supporting a lie.” That’s selfish.
I’m gonna cut to the chase as someone who has been on the giving and receiving end of similar situations. You feel betrayed by him and you want to tell his wife so that he gets whatever consequences that your ego deems fair for what he did to you. There is no moral high ground for telling her or not telling her. She is suffering regardless. But telling her will hurt him because he desperately doesn’t want her to know. The itch and discomfort you’re feeling isn’t about lying to her.. it’s about holding back the acts of revenge. I can tell you’re not a mean person, so I want to emphasize that my use of the word revenge is neutral. It’s a tough pill to swallow that we get so confused over really basic stuff. Our ego is searching for reasons to believe we are so “good” that we overlook the possibility we are being mindfucked by it. I wouldn’t tell her, and instead let him suffer in his own ways.
I think you have assumed too much based on regular emotional responses and it's completely fair to jump to that. I don't feel hurt here though and never said I was hurt. I'm burdened by figuring out how to stop thinking that I've done the wrong thing by lying to her about the severity of the affair. I already explained my alexithymic trait in another comment in more depth, but essentially I'm very numb to my own feelings. In my experience, that fact derails people into unhelpful questioning or overtly explaining emotions when I know emotions already.
Morality and ethics mean a great deal more to me than my emotions because mine don't impact me much or at all (exceptional outbursts exist those suck a lot and I know what it is to feel strongly but mostly feel numb), but I do value the emotions of others because they're impacted negatively by them. I'm highly concerned with being precise about treating others fairly. If I were to pretend his wife is not a sentient person, or if I knew without a doubt if she prefers an "ignorance is bliss" attitude over "knowledge is power" attitude then I wouldn't waste more time contemplating if I'm doing right by her.
As far as he goes I think he's a great person still. I don't want to reestablish contact because I think it's too complicated and questionable and I don't like that he could do it again. He has led a very moral life up to last year when he had a dark event hit and life threw him into a crisis. I already know that he suffers all the time, he always has and maybe always will. I want him to be very happy. Although if I were to make a high stakes bet and had to ignore optimism-- I think he'll feel guilty all his life based on him feeling very guilty all his life for lesser and more questionably neutral actions. He has low self esteem and that's a shame because he's achieved a lot and is very kind and wonderful. I don't like that he's not going to be happy with anything because he's so predisposed to feeling shitty about himself all the time. That's why he overcompensates by acting opposite of how he feels. His feelings system was damaged by abuse as a child too and made him feel perpetually unworthy of everything good. I guess I liked how I could relate to him overcompensating for an emotional defect. A different but comparably difficult defect.
If I wanted him to be miserable I would simply tell him that I changed my mind, I don't forgive him and I think he's a shitbag. He can't stand the thought of me hating him, even pointing out that he had acted selfishly hurt him. So I do have a way I could inflict a miserable consequence on him that exactly fits the crime. But why? It doesn't accomplish anything nor empower and trust a person with info that maybe they deserve. He doesn't deserve to be berated by a mistake repeatedly, saying it one time eats at him more than is normal. But I can't help but think she could deserve and/or want to know. That her decisions are being manipulated right now and it's not fair to her?
Oh, shoot, correction. I did say that I don't have an interest in harming him even if I feel harmed. That's confusing for sure and suggests I did feel harmed. I meant to show that I don't feel harmed or vengeful, but people expect me to so I covered that hypothetically.
It's way more unethical to not tell his wife the truth, I can't understand the thought behind letting him lie to her being remotely ethical. I say this as someone who has been cheated on with kids involved, who didn't know for several years. She will find out eventually, the truth always comes out, and she will be way more upset about the wasted time living in a lie. I would say you are complicit in wrong doing if you don't tell her now.
"When we spoke she confirmed she had known about me the whole time and knew he was lying to me about all three things."
This line here should really be your focus. This guy and his wife have whatever relationship they have. At this point, it is none of your business. You've actually done your part and have been in contact with his wife to let her know that you exist.
There is nothing more for you to do. At this point, you just leave and turn the page on this chapter. Don't give this man or his family another thought. If the depth of your relationship with this man is a concern, she can ask her husband or she can ask you about it, given that you've introduced yourself. How much she wants to know is actually up to her; not you.
If I can give another analogy. I come from a pretty religious background and while I was religious and seeking a wife, questions of the past would obviously be of concern. How much does each side want to know. It's not as simple as just tell them everything. Some people actually don't want to know. At the same time, you do want to let them know enough to have a basis for you. So I would say something like 'I'm not a virgin and have a past. In my head, those are the main things someone would need to know as a basis. Now if they want to inquire as the details of each past relationship or this or that, then they can ask. But there's no need to pointlessly come forth will all that detailed information.
You've been honest enough with the wife to let her know you exist and you had some kind of relationship with her husband. It's on her to ask for details if she wants.
It's tough, and I get the dilemma. As said elsewhere, she knows. He also knows, and it's up to them now how to move forward and determine what is best for their family. You were never a part of the unit, only an influence on it. Therefore, you don't have the privilege to make decisions for it now. Go your own way.
But all she 'knows' is that we saw each other once a week to workout. She didn't know we kept on texting after she asked him to cut back on how much we were talking. He hid that. He hid that we were working out 3-4 times a week. He hid meeting up outside the gym. He hid the few trysts. He hid what he was feeling from her. She believed we were good friends, and were keeping to the guidelines she set up and expected to be honored. She heard from me that it was an emotional affair from my perspective and was upset at that but she thinks he wasn't part of the reciprocal feelings there. That he was being a friend with bad boundaries and keeping secrets to keep on with the bad boundaries.
It's not possible for me to make their decisions. I don't think I should even if I could because they know themselves best. I do recognize that I have the privilege of holding knowledge she doesn't, which leads to thoughts of guilty obligation for me to share it. Like I need to let her make her final decision while she's on the same level of knowledge as her husband. I don't personally like the most likely consequences though or inflicting hurt, even if it can be qualified as a good hurt. I think they should put their martial fights to rest, get over this through marital therapy, and live happily ever after.
If you were her, would you want to know? Or would you wish the affair partner had told you?
I totally understand not wanting to throw a grenade on a relationship that could adversely effect childrens lives. But you've gotta remember that he messed up this part of his life, NOT YOU. And you are in no way at fault, nor should you hold any guilt, because you didn't know the full truth of his martial status (because HE lied).
To be honest, I feel like you should tell her. Because she's making a choice to continue the marriage based on an inaccurate set of beliefs. He lied to you about being married to her, then lied to her about the extent of his affair.
Granted, I don't know any of you personally involved, so at the end of the day YOU know what's right more than anyone. Because I could just as easily see you wanting to move on from all of this and separate yourself from it, rather than dig up more dirt and flip so many peoples lives upside down.
Do whatever helps you sleep at night. Unless he's secretly bat shit crazy and likely to show up at your house with a gun or something because his life got ruined. Then just go no contact all around for your own safety.
But if I was you, I'd tell her what happened. Apologize and be honest about his lies, that you didn't know he was married because of what he told you. Then go no contact with all of them. Block, restraining order, whatever you've gotta do.
Because idk about you, but if I was her I'd be really wishing someone had told me the whole truth.
The wife knows she can ask OP if further details are desired. OP is showing that she can't let go of this couple and looks to be planning to boil rabbits. Don't encourage her.
I agree. If I were in her shoes, I'd want to know the whole truth, no matter how painful it was.
You owe that man nothing OP. He lied to both of you. Think of it this way, you tell her now and she makes an informed decision to stay or go. You don't tell her now, he gets away with it.. he then thinks he can get away with it again and does this with someone else. She finds out and you just prolong the hurt. It'll blow up one way or another.
If he was truly sorry, he'd of confessed to the whole thing on his own to start from a blank slate and work to fix the marriage properly. Instead he's just looking out for himself. He's been selfish from the start. Take your rose tinted glasses off towards this guy - he's not a good guy. If he was, he wouldn't have lied to you and he'd of kept appropriate boundaries.
Mind your own business!
Move on with your life and leave other people alone.
I hate social justice warriors. If you were my employee, I’d find a reason to fire you.
If you were my friend, I’d cut you out.
I’m not defending the guy. The issue here is you. You are your own problem here. You need to work your shit out with a therapist. If you don’t, you’re going to leave a wake of broken relationships in your path and always find a reason to make the other person look like the bad guy.
In this case, the other guy is in the wrong, but I see the way you wrote here. You’re the problem.
Thanks for taking time to reply. I'm very open to being the problem here and curious how about how I'm the problem. I believe you. There's something wrong with me.
I want to get better. Can you give me advice about what really irked you about my response(s)?
Secondly, I'm confused about some things. How is it a social justice warrior thing to struggle with a rigid internal sense of ethics over lying vs. wanting to shield everybody from hard feelings to create the best possible outcome? I just think she's the most hurt party here and wanted to make sure lying to her was the best action.
I’m for not telling her. Since she knows how close you were, and knows how much he was away, she undoubtedly knows in her heart that he cheated. But her not knowing “explicitly” gives her some peace of mind and she may be forgive and move on.
You say an ethical decision would be to tell her, but that only assuages your guilt. But you had your boundaries and followed them so you should not feel guilty. And you risk blowing up their marriage by telling her. If you did tell and the marriage folds, would you not feel guilty about that?
Let it lie, heal yourself and go on about life.
To me, finding a way to honestly communicate is better than hiding something. Neither situation is great, but you really have no good options.
I would probably suggest you separate and don't even maintain friendship at least for a time to allow everyone to move forward. I don't know if I could actually follow that advice.
Of course, be NC and no friendship forever. If you "don't know if [you] could actually follow that advice" then that is a big character flaw on you. How on earth would anyone think it appropriate to re-engage into that family's lives again.
I think the wife deserves to have the full information before she makes her decision moving forward. You should have been honest with her from the start, but hindsight is 20/20.
Some people will forgive an emotional affair while viewing a physical one as a hard line. I personally think cheating is cheating, but she has a life and kids with this man and may have rationalized that as long as it wasn’t physical, they could work through it.
She may suspect something physical happened but suspecting is one thing, and two people denying it might have been enough to dissuade her of that thought.
I think morally the right thing to do is make sure she knows the full truth of the affair so she can decide if she wants to stay and put herself at risk of him doing the same thing again. I’d tell her and then block them both and remove yourself completely from the narrative moving forward.
I'm sorry the wife deserves to know what kind of person she actually married, and what's actually been going on.
Right now you are deliberately lying by omission.
He's not going to fully reconcile. He's going to end up falling for somebody else. You have this delusion that you are somehow special and unique and that he's never going to ever do this again. Bullshit - cheaters are cheaters and it's almost never just the one.
You will just be the first in a string of women he does this with.
You are not endangering relationship and harming those other people he is. He did the minute he stepped across the line into your bedroom. The minute he allowed that discussion to go way too far into sexual territory he was already emotionally cheating.
You see me doing a whole lot of talking, trying to avoid and justify. It's very simple. You didn't know he wasn't actually single. Now you do. You've already directly interacted with his wife and chosen to keep up the lie once and it's eating way at you.
I'm sorry, I think you owe the wife the truth and let the chips fall where they may.
OP: You are the human equivalent of toxic waste. You have no moral dilemma because you have no morals to begin with. The best possibly thing you could do is stay far away from all of these people and never have any contact with any of them ever again.
She deserves to know what her relationship really is. Wouldn’t you want all the facts about your own life? She’s staying with a liar and a cheater and she has no idea. That’s so so unfair. Please tell her the truth. From that point on it’s up to them to fix their marriage or not
I generally lean towards always tell them. I would want to know, regardless of what it is, emotional or physical cheating. It seems most people would want to know as well. Some don't, some prefer ignorance oddly enough. However in your case it's a bit more complicated, and it appears she already knows and has just turned a blind eye to it, and is choosing to lie to herself. Idk if getting more explicit with her on the details is gonna help or harm more. It's more than obvious that he has some serious personal issues, and she's well aware of that. If she wanted more details she had the ability to ask you anything she wanted when you guys talked. She didn't, so I'd take that as a sign to move on. You did everything you should've when you found out he was lying, and I don't think you have anything to feel guilty about. Going no contact was the only logical choice and you did that as well. I'd take the lessons you learned from this and move on. Karma will take care of the rest in regards to him, and what they choose to do now is on them.
Yes. Thank you. This is the way. Plus, after reading various replies from the OP, it seems that perhaps her fixation on telling the wife more stuff is OPs way of re-engaging with this whole situation. The wife could have asked already if she wanted to know the play by play details.
So your two values are not ruining families, and being honest? While you weren’t initially responsible for hurting his wife/family, now that you know, keeping it to yourself isn’t moral in any way. If you think you would be ruining his family by telling, then just change the situation. What if he was a murderer, into CP, etc…? You would feel morally obligated to keep it a secret to protect his family? Come on, lady.
I'm voting for not telling. Remain NC, and consider this a lesson learned. She already knows the broad strokes of what happened. Adding more details will only hurt her.
She doesn't know that we were physical because I lied when he told me that telling the truth would end their marriage. And I downplayed how often I was seeing him in a week and how much non-physical affection and connection was really going on. I think about her a lot and what does she want? I already know she wants to repair a marriage that's had a small breach of trust, but does she want to repair a marriage that has had a big breach in trust? Am I being fair to her by robbing her of knowledge that would change her outcome? Did I decide she should stay married and manipulated for that outcome? NC is a no-brainer. Even if they can't work their issues out and get divorced I'm done with him. At the time I considered friendship because I was instantly turned off romantically by him, but still primed to miss his company and knew how hard it would be to find another gym partner. I still don't have a new one. However, I think about what it would take to get me to lie for over a year, and I know that I couldn't keep up a front for that long and I don't want to deal with wondering how he could do that to a friend.
Okay, how many other people know about the affair? (I mean real people, not anonymous profiles on Reddit. ) If no one else knows, I think that you should keep quiet. If anyone else knows, you should probably tell her. And I am NOT saying this because "you're probably going to get caught anyway." This may be true, but it's not my reasoning. The reason you should come clean if anyone else knows is because a large part of the pain caused by an affair stems from *embarrassment*. People love to go on about how they don't care what others think, but it's so much bullshit. People care very much what others think. People care about their reputations far more than they'll admit. If no one else knows, then her reputation is safe. This becomes an issue for them to solve (or not) between the two of them (absent important information, yes, but still their business. Keep out of it.) If anyone else knows, though, when she *does* find out (and she will, if others know,) she will have to deal with the additional (and often greater) pain of humiliation. (And no, she *shouldn't* be humiliated by what she had no part in, but whatever. People aren't always logical. )
I think a lot depends on your conversation with her, and how much she really wanted to know. Oh man this is a tough one. I do think it’s pretty shitty that he’d lie to you, carry through with an affair, and not hold himself accountable when the inevitable occurred. I’m sure he has lots of great qualities, but spelled out as above it makes one wonder if you are actually the first and last betrayal. Worst case scenario she wastes another decade and he does it again. I think that is the thought that would keep me up if I were in your shoes. If the circumstances/excuses truly exist that make this situation a one-off, then perhaps their love will be strong enough to survive whichever intensity of betrayal is revealed. I guess I land on that she deserves to hear the truth that her husband is unwilling to tell her the full truth…that kinda feels like a big 3rd strike to me after lying to you and carrying through the betrayal
She deserves to know!!!
My Father Said “If a Married Man wants to sleep with you, You are Not the First and Won’t Be the Last” This has become True in my experience. Let the wife wrastle with that. You, get your ass into the Gym to meet New Available People and Lesson Learned! Move On, Life is Short.
Why are You Capitalizing random Words
Stay NC with him, if he cheated *with* you, he'll cheat ON you. Just from what you've described here, it sounds like he's just a really good manipulator. He had you believing his lies for over a year. Also I'm curious as to how your perception of him as an 'extreme boy scout' was built. What ideas or qualities about him give you that impression? Keep talking with the wife at least for a little while if you're both open to the conversation. If she wants to know more, he honest but not too blunt or harsh about it. She may need more information to have closure, even if she knows it would hurt. Some people are like that. Or she may need evidence to nail his ass to the wall in a possible divorce. 🤷 😅 Whatever the case, he lied to both of you and now that you know, it's your choice whether you want to continue to believe him. Once someone has been proven to be capable of lying to you, it should call into question everything about them, including their overall character and personality, not just things they say. Read past his words, and even question whether his behaviors are authentic. Learn what his behaviors mean and you'll be able to tell.
A lot of flowery language to say “I’m fucking a married guy, can I stroll off into the sunset with him and pretend I’m blameless?” The answer is no. Also, he’ll cheat on you, too.
Haha, I haven't fucked him in months because fucking was rare like I said. And I went no contact as soon as I knew he was married. Not everything is about sex. The sex part aside, I never want to see him again. Which I said but okay. 👍 I support however making that comment made your giant troll feelings feel better. Must be super fulfilling.
Tell the truth. The truth is always right. He already ruined his marriage, only she doesn’t know it yet. Tell her so they can start to repair. She deserves to know.
Im confused in the post u said she does know because she knew he lied about not being married etc?? So what doesn't she know I don't understand
First of all, you’re not causing anything, he put himself, and you in the situation. He can deal with his own consequences… he knows, because everyone knows. His job is to make one woman feel special. The second that he starts making another feel special, he’s cheating, the rest is just digging himself deeper. He may well have been your soulmate, probably was. That happens. There’s one person who can make your soul resonate and make you feel that way, if you’re lucky enough to have a soulmate at all… but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have free will, maybe he married the wrong person, fate can only put two people on a path that meets. It can’t decide what they do on their way there… If you feel like you need to get that off your chest, I say take precautions first, because a man who’s capable of losing everything, is capable of being very dangerous. Tell her… I’d have said tell her regardless, the reason he told her, was for damage control, he’s a master manipulator. Fucking hide first, but nuke him and let that be a lesson to all the other would be cheaters.
You must be hot because your personality, as revealed in this post, kind of sucks.
Not really
This is not complicated, y'all are just way too caught up in your feelings. Walk away, their relationship shouldn't have anything to do with you now that you've cut it off. I know you got hurt, and as the wound is healing it feels like there's an itch you need to scratch. But that's just how healing feels sometimes. Fessing up to the "emotionally explicit" nature of the affair or whatever will NOT give you the relief you think it will, everyone will walk away feeling shittier.
THIS Your moral dilemma is stifled rage
I'm not caught up in feelings or feeling hurt. It's easiest to communicate to other people with the feelings involved. Although, I intentionally did not say I was hurt over this because to me it feels more like */*oh darn, I have to switch plans today that I thought were great but other plans are great too*/*. I'm really burdened by how culpable I am if I lie to keep this secret. The secret that the level of betrayal goes far beyond what she's being told. I'm plagued by internal debate and struggle to let it go. Btw, I'm alexithymic so I often don't experience emotions in a way that's not numb or the rare complete nuclear option, thankfully not common at all. I think about what I might feel, more than I feel intuitively. But I learned that about myself when I was very young and had mandatory therapy to help me. I got interested in resolving what was missing and I like to think I've taken compensatory measures to get to normal. It's a fact that derails conversations into people trying to figure out what kind of alien lifeform or sociopath I am. Which I don't think should be the focus since I'm still a good person who wants to do the correct thing and values ethics. So maybe it's not complicated to you, but I would want to know if I was betrayed at a 10% level, or 70-90% level. It would make a difference to me, and for the life of me, this is a quandary that I can't solve because I don't know her opinion on "whether ignorance is bliss" or "knowledge is power". What if I'm wrong and she's not happy with my choice to lie?
You're over-thinking it bro. This is HIS relationship and HIS lie. Simple as that. Walk away.
But the wife was lied to by them both about the physical part. She thinks they were just friends.
Your user name checks out to your comments!
Haha, it was the most fitting thing I could think of!
The wife knew full well to be suspicious and has had plenty of opportunity to ask OP about details. No need to rub her nose in who did what to whom if she would rather not have that imagery in her head.
According to OP, the wife knew her husband was hanging our with a new woman best friend AND lying about his age, that he was divorced, and the number of his kids. The wife knew perfectly well that this whole situation was messed up. She didn't think they were just friends.
Agree
I find you a bit hard to read, maybe it would be more helpful if you stated the facts. What I think I'm getting is that you had a sexual and romantic relationship with a married man, believing he was in the process of divorcing his wife, she found out about you two, but believes it was only an emotional affair, was convinced by cheating partner to not talk to you, but then she confronted you and he asked you to not tell her that it was a full affair? If I'm correct, I would prefer to know. An unloyal partner is a disease and cheating is a symptom.
Walking away will most likely hurt the wife anyways, just over a longer period of time. He isn’t going to change. If you do nothing, you’re just waiting until they’re older and have even more time and probably emotion invested before it fractures. On the other hand, this woman held all the information and didn’t see fit to let you make an informed decision, so why should you extend that courtesy to her?
She should now about his inability to be honest. Trust is the foundation of a healthy relationship. If they rebuild their marriage on a lie when it does come out (and it will) it will cause a lot more harm. She should know and have a chance to decide if it’s worth it or better for her to leave. Children are better coming from a family whose parents separated but had healthy mental states than parents who stood together and have a strained relationship because of unshared resentment/lies/mistrust/infidelity. He broke up his family the second he slept with you. She has no idea that he was “in love “ with another woman , she’s being manipulated and lied to in order to keep their relationship. There’s a reason you feel bad and your ETHICAL side wants to tell her, it’s the best thing for the WHOLE family. Tell her.
No contact, leave them alone, it's not your problem. He made his bed he can sleep in it. Block him cut him off, you are too easily swayed by his bs, he has been playing you the whole time. No contact!
Lol, k, agreed. No need to convince me that no level of connection is worth being lied to.
If it is agreed, then why are you trying to jump back in and restir the pot. Wife will call you if she wants your details. Part of NC is to stop fixating on them.
I'm fixating on whether I'm in line with my moral value system. On the other side of this issue is a person that I don't have any real connection to but she's a thinking, feeling person that deserves my best behavior now that I know she exists. People want to assume I'm doing this for drama, revenge, or stirring the pot. That's on them. I just want to feel right about myself and my integrity. I don't lie on principle and try to be a tactful, kind, truth teller. It fucking bothers me that I did lie because I was in a rush and making a split decision about what would be least painful for her to hear. Is that really the right call? This is a big thing to lie about I have the right to contemplate and process if it's a lie I want to stick with.
Trust me when I say this…. She knows. She knew the whole time. She just didn’t have proof. And this may sound odd, but you confirming it will do a lot of irreversible damage. Why bring more chaos to their lives and possibly yours? It’s done and over with. Let it go and move on.
It ain't that big of a dilemma. Tell her everything, then block them both. Their relationship is theirs to figure out. You need to exit stage left
"Telling the truth will scratch my ethical concerns and remove my burdensone rumination that I'm now culpable for what I did because I know now that I'm supporting a lie. Although, I might take on the new burden of feeling like my intervention derailed reconciliation and I don't want that either." She knows, she doesn't need all the details or have the knife twisted. He says your his bestfriend and cheated on his wife having sex with you, she knows that, she isn't unaware of the seriousness. That's why she'd prefer if you were just removed from their life. It shouldnt be a situation the 3 of you are in, just the two of them. She isn't asking for details or interrogating you to know the extent. I think you telling her is more about wanting to alleviate your own guilt, to scratch that ethical itch as you put it. at this point it seems the best thing you can do is nothing, I don't really see a positive of any further involvement
🙄
🙃
Get Out!!! You'll Lose All the Power is No His, Wife's. 😎🤣
Star Trek solved this dilemma for us -the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. Will telling his wife benefit her or her children in any way - most likely not. She married the guy and has her reasons for forgiving him for what he has fessed up to - she probably suspects there is more to it but is willing to let it go for the sake of her family. You can have the guilt of not telling her or the guilt of possibly wrecking other people’s lives - either way is a no win situation so you pick the one that does the least harm
Thank you for this perspective, it's what runs in my head when I think about it, only it's more concise and I hadn't considered maybe she knows more than she's been told because of intuition. How do I overcome the guilt of lying for the greater good though? Or my doubts about manipulating her into what I think is the greater good? How much freedom of choice am I removing from her? It's one thing to forgive a small breach of trust, another to forgive a massive breach of trust. I hate making her think it's small, without knowing what she would want to know.
You shouldn't be able to overcome the guilt. You did a despicable thing and the result is the guilt you have for having contributed to the destruction of a marriage by having an affair with a married man. The best outcome ahead of you is to use this experience to mold you into a better person who won't ever do something so reprehensible again. You should also hope karma doesn't visit you when you marry.
Read the details. I thought he was divorced. I never would have pursued him if I knew he was married and I instantly cut back to texting only when I suspected something weird was up, followed by going NC when I confirmed the suspicion. Going forward I plan to ask divorcees for their divorce papers. I can't do better than that. The question is how much do I let his wife know, and if it's not everything, how do live with the dissonce of not telling her everything? Should I err on her experience being one of ignorant bliss or powerful knowledge? Why? I feel guilty because I already lied once about nothing physical happening and claimed it was all an emotional affair. I'm not going to feel guilty about not detecting his lies sooner. The whole human race is screwed if omniscient is the bar we need to hit to feel good about ourselves.
No one can fault you for not knowing he was married. Very few married people openly admit they are married and looking for a little action on the side. But you continued to have contact, albeit limited, with him after the fact. You should've immediately cut off all contact with him once you realized he was married. That's on you. As for the guilt, it's yours to bare, regardless of where you feel it comes from. Learn from your experience and don't repeat the same mistake.
I just said that I immediately cut off contact when I had my suspicions that something was weird **confirmed**, namely that he was married? I had a week before that where I refused to meet him because things felt off and I texted him a bit during that one week of suspicion. The very last time I saw him was the time that he owned up to being married, being older than he said, and having more kids than he said. I haven't texted him since then, except when his wife had us group text. You're preaching but I don't know who you're preaching to since I did everything you're saying a person should do. What are you not understanding about the timeline?
What I understand is that after you "immediately cut him off", you then chose to maintain a friendship with him "with his wife's permission, of course", because it was supposedly important to his mental health. What's wrong with you? Haven't you contributed enough damage to their marriage? And further along in your post you hem and haw about what to do about the whole situation. What you should do is leave them both the hell alone. His wife has enough problems without you in the picture. And get counseling.
The same day he told me he was married I agreed I would go into being platonic as platonic can be if his wife was completely informed and okay with it, but not on his word that she was okay with it, because he's a liar. I insisted that if being friends was going to happen then I had to hear it directly from her. On the call, that happened that night, she said she was okay with us having a much much much pared back friendship and outlined her conditions. I could tell she would rather that I wasn't friends with him at all, so I stuck to the agreement I originally said. If I felt his wife was informed and okay with us being friends then I'd be friends. She wasn't either of those things, so I didn't contact him again after that. Other than one text calling him selfish and cowardly and that I didn't want to be his friend.
There's no need to keep explaining yourself. What happened was a direct result of his lying to you. What happened after that was you whipping a dead horse for some crazy reason. Close that chapter in your life, move on from it, and never put yourself in that position again. There's really nothing else you can do.
I'm confused. I thought you went non-contact with the family (which seems correct). So, who are you going to lie to? Minding your own business and keeping out of their business is not lying. If the wife wants to know the gory details, let her ask you. She has had plenty of opportunities to ask and had plenty of reason to be suspicious. So if she isn't asking, you would only be being cruel (or bragging or lonely?) to keep picking at the wound.
I already lied to her about nothing physical happening.
Tell her. Please tell her. PLEASE, PLEASE TELL HER. Allow her to decide. If you do not tell her, you are not protecting a family. He told you he was divorced. The wife DESERVES to know that. He lied about how many kids he has. THE WIFE OF SAID CHILDREN DESERVES TO KNOW THAT. With better information, people make better decisions. It’s clear he’s left the marriage and role of father in his own ways. Please, do not withhold this from the wife. Tell her. Trust that she will use this information to make the best decision. They might go to therapy and move through it, they might get a divorce, that is not up to you. Do not let her go forward without telling her what she is married to and is raising a family with. In all likelihood, he will do this again. You did not do anything wrong when engaging with a “divorced” man. But now you have the responsibility to bring to light what was kept in the dark.
Please don't tell her the truth. This is the high road.
Alright I'm not going to get into objective morals because the world's not binary. This sounds blunt but I mean in sincerely: do whatever helps you sleep at night. You're a party that was tossed into a salad of way more ingredients than you signed up for. You have all the power because you deserve all the power. You were transparent, the other person lied. That being said, if your personal morality says saying something will give you relief, do it, and fu k the haters that say you're causing this-this-and this. If you want to take a deep breath and leave this dude to handle his own filth and conscious, that's okay too, wash your hands. Utilitarianism only really does any good when all parties buy in. Do you, because in all this you deserve to treat YOURSELF the best.
Holy shit! Do you understand how brainwashed you are? You are/ were being lied to by a manipulative person whose wife was also a manipulative person. This is next level, dark triad shit. You are caught up in some kind of disgusting game. These two sick people are playing psychotic games at your expense. Go no contact with these disgusting people and seek therapy immediately. I have no idea why you’re even concerned about their relationship. You need to be concerned about you, your family and your marriage. They have clearly brainwashed you and you are a pawn and some kind of sick disgusting game they’re playing. You need to understand that you have been severely manipulated. Your misplaced concern for them has me sick to my stomach. Please get help.
Why are people assuming I'm married?
Married or not you have been completely sucked into some next level manipulation
lol. move on with your life. it’s not morality, its revenge.
Why would I want revenge?
you mean other than a man lied to you about his marital status. i guess nothing.
He helped me out of a dark time. Feeling hurt here is the equivalent of not liking frog, but enjoying a meal that had frog hidden in it. I don't suddenly want to throw it all on a pile of garbage and light it on fire for revenge. I'm not going to go back for more frog, but the frog has already been eaten and enjoyed. Then it turned into a shit. Several things in life are perishable and not expected to last, but we get so much joy out of it anyway. Compared to having several loved ones die unexpectedly, being lied to doesn't really register as much of anything. It's not like he murdered my family or made me suffer a drastic life loss.
And as AP she basically said to the Wife "Ma'am your husband is just a Friend."
If he cheated once, he will cheat again. He knew what to say to help you in ur dark times and get u in bed, like u said he was lying. U were soul mates if 1 is lying to the other. His wife has the right to know what her husband was up to and its up to her to decide if she wants to divorce or go to couples counseling. Did you know he was married before sleeping with him? If so, you were half the problem. And his wife is the victim of both her husband's infidelity and you covering it up.
Sounds like you already told her. Do you need to spell out the dirty details? Is that what this is about?
I lied and denied anything physical happened. I also minimized the emotional connection. I don't think I should be detailed, but feel emotionally uncomfortable and this persistent moral itch because I lied to her. I keep wondering about what she wants. She's facing the most consequences. She has one husband who she can't easily be done with and replace within minutes, whereas I have a lot of current and future friends to replace him. What would she tell me to do if she heard my moral dilemma? I feel like respecting her in this situation is the priority. But at the same time I want them to succeed as a family and don't want to create the chaos of correcting the lie I told a week ago. By lying, I've manipulated an outcome towards what I think should be, but what about her thoughts and feelings? I know she wants to stay with the man who she thinks betrayed her about 10% of the way. The reality is anywhere on the 70-90% betrayal scale, does that fit what she wants?
Oh. I see. I somehow didn't get that. You probably said that but there were a lot of details so I guess I didn't pick up on this. That is tough. I would assume that she knows or is sufficiently unsure and untrusting about it that she will recognize his betrayal in the future and if she doesn't, that means she is not ready to see it.
OP said the wife was only told by both him and OP that they just had a secret friendship, not a secret relationship. I think OP should tell, as this woman thinks her marriage was not broken. Also, OP: you would be allowing her to decide whether or not she wants to stay married to a cheater. Either way, she and the kids are already going to be hurt, because they will eventually find out. And, even if they don’t, his conscience will bleed out somehow. Be it through his admittance, another affair, or the way he inevitably emotionally checks out. You’re right: you’re responsible NOW. If you don’t tell her, you’ll be guilty going forward.
But what if in 20 years they are happy! I believe he has what it takes to mend his marriage and not check out. I believe he genuinely cares about her and was an idiot. Not telling her gives her, their kids, and him the best shot at happiness probably. What you listed could happen, but what about the possible happy outcomes? I keep thinking down the same branch of thought that you're expressing and rejecting it because telling her seems too hard and unpredictable. I get caught in only thinking about the assurity of it bringing a negative outcome versus the optimism that not telling her brings a positive outcome. But I don't know. I'm not omniscient nor am I going to make a better decision for a grown woman I don't know than she could make herself if she knew all the info. So I come full circle to thinking again that I should tell her even if I think it's hard and puts everybody in the position (for better or worse) that she chooses to respond to his actions with. I talked with my therapist and he said I may think that honesty is the best policy but that implies it isn't the only policy and exceptions exist to every policy. What if giving people their best (perceived) shot at happiness is the best policy? I don't know about him on a moral level anymore, but like I'm one to judge because I don't know about myself on a moral level anymore.
All very true, however I think you’re forgetting one thing: it would all still be a lie. Right now she and her kids think he is one person, while you know that isn’t true. Consider it a different way. If you have a friend whose family sent her to university, but you find out she had actually been kidnapped on day two. They will never find out otherwise in this scenario. They think she just cuts contact with them for the rest of their lives. Would you tell them? They can more or less be somewhat happy not knowing, but the only way they have a chance of her living is if you do tell them (though, she could also already be deceased. You can’t know.) At the end of the day, it’s what you can live with. If you were her, would you want informed consent? I know I would. For all you know, there were many other “you’s” and he’s just a phenomenal actor. Either way, she may be sleeping with someone that slept with another person, and that may be unforgivable to her. She has a right to know from someone involved. You can also ask to meet her directly. Ask her if she would like you to tell her the full truth, just don’t say what it is yet. That way, if she doesn’t want to know, she can turn you down and keep her blinders on. Edit: typos.
It would still be a lie. Yet, where does the line on noble lie and ignoble lie get drawn. Ask people if they're happy lying exists because of how many people are alive or free today because people lied to remove them from the reach of the Nazi descent and they'll say yes. They may even attribute their life to an ancestor being saved through lying. (Extreme example that I couldn't really contend with in therapy) I would of course talk about finding out about a kid napping. There's no ramifications to that, and all upsides to being transparent. Like protecting her life and happiness and their lives as they know it and their happiness. So to save a life is a noble reason to lie. No question. What about to save pain? What about making 7+ people happy, and one of those people is uninformed? And by staying uninformed, they remain happy? (I think the kids should be uninformed about their dad's and mom's sex lives so I don't count them as potentially wrongfully uninformed.) What if it's too late in life for her to start over? Is it right to lie to protect her from the hardship of feeling stuck with him no matter what? I don't know her exact age but she doesn't have a career safety net, only a degree she never decided on using, and is old enough to have four adult children and one high schooler. What if she's only forgiving him so she can avoid financial suffering?
The kids being nearly all adults sways me further towards telling her the truth. IMO it really reduces the downside risk of ‘destroying’ a family. If their marriage is as strong as you believe then the likely outcome would be a cordial long term situation, even if there is short term pain and divorce. My wife’s parents split when she was about 20. It still fucking sucked but ultimately was for the best. Some challenging issues for the kids to work through as adults, but perhaps more important for personal growth and understanding the real world and human nature than continuing to believe falsehoods (a lot more to unpack there but you get my point)
There are certain things i could forgive. I think you should tell her. He will more than likely cheat again. I believe this because of how capable he has been with manipulating this situation. People are willing to work on a relationship with trust and honesty, but your not protecting her, and it’s so detrimental that she shares her body with him, thinking its a safe closed off space, when it’s not. He could bring her a disease, get someone pregnant ect. I would not be ok with that at all! I would rather have my family dynamic change, and have the option moving forward with a loyal partner. Im not in it to be betrayed. And if he thinks your soul mates that’s even worse. I want to be with someone who has a love like me. Not a half ass attempt, but a deep urgent true love. Please tell her, don’t let her waste her life while he lies to her. He won’t change, but she deserves to know, and go from there.
If you were to tell her, *you* would feel better bc you would not be “supporting a lie.” *She* would feel like shit. ***Their children*** would feel like shit. And he would feel like shit, but whatever; he’s a cheating cheater who cheats. The point is, you don’t get to do that. You don’t get to throw a bomb at that family because *you* feel bad about “supporting a lie.” That’s selfish.
I’m gonna cut to the chase as someone who has been on the giving and receiving end of similar situations. You feel betrayed by him and you want to tell his wife so that he gets whatever consequences that your ego deems fair for what he did to you. There is no moral high ground for telling her or not telling her. She is suffering regardless. But telling her will hurt him because he desperately doesn’t want her to know. The itch and discomfort you’re feeling isn’t about lying to her.. it’s about holding back the acts of revenge. I can tell you’re not a mean person, so I want to emphasize that my use of the word revenge is neutral. It’s a tough pill to swallow that we get so confused over really basic stuff. Our ego is searching for reasons to believe we are so “good” that we overlook the possibility we are being mindfucked by it. I wouldn’t tell her, and instead let him suffer in his own ways.
I think you have assumed too much based on regular emotional responses and it's completely fair to jump to that. I don't feel hurt here though and never said I was hurt. I'm burdened by figuring out how to stop thinking that I've done the wrong thing by lying to her about the severity of the affair. I already explained my alexithymic trait in another comment in more depth, but essentially I'm very numb to my own feelings. In my experience, that fact derails people into unhelpful questioning or overtly explaining emotions when I know emotions already. Morality and ethics mean a great deal more to me than my emotions because mine don't impact me much or at all (exceptional outbursts exist those suck a lot and I know what it is to feel strongly but mostly feel numb), but I do value the emotions of others because they're impacted negatively by them. I'm highly concerned with being precise about treating others fairly. If I were to pretend his wife is not a sentient person, or if I knew without a doubt if she prefers an "ignorance is bliss" attitude over "knowledge is power" attitude then I wouldn't waste more time contemplating if I'm doing right by her. As far as he goes I think he's a great person still. I don't want to reestablish contact because I think it's too complicated and questionable and I don't like that he could do it again. He has led a very moral life up to last year when he had a dark event hit and life threw him into a crisis. I already know that he suffers all the time, he always has and maybe always will. I want him to be very happy. Although if I were to make a high stakes bet and had to ignore optimism-- I think he'll feel guilty all his life based on him feeling very guilty all his life for lesser and more questionably neutral actions. He has low self esteem and that's a shame because he's achieved a lot and is very kind and wonderful. I don't like that he's not going to be happy with anything because he's so predisposed to feeling shitty about himself all the time. That's why he overcompensates by acting opposite of how he feels. His feelings system was damaged by abuse as a child too and made him feel perpetually unworthy of everything good. I guess I liked how I could relate to him overcompensating for an emotional defect. A different but comparably difficult defect. If I wanted him to be miserable I would simply tell him that I changed my mind, I don't forgive him and I think he's a shitbag. He can't stand the thought of me hating him, even pointing out that he had acted selfishly hurt him. So I do have a way I could inflict a miserable consequence on him that exactly fits the crime. But why? It doesn't accomplish anything nor empower and trust a person with info that maybe they deserve. He doesn't deserve to be berated by a mistake repeatedly, saying it one time eats at him more than is normal. But I can't help but think she could deserve and/or want to know. That her decisions are being manipulated right now and it's not fair to her?
Oh, shoot, correction. I did say that I don't have an interest in harming him even if I feel harmed. That's confusing for sure and suggests I did feel harmed. I meant to show that I don't feel harmed or vengeful, but people expect me to so I covered that hypothetically.
It's way more unethical to not tell his wife the truth, I can't understand the thought behind letting him lie to her being remotely ethical. I say this as someone who has been cheated on with kids involved, who didn't know for several years. She will find out eventually, the truth always comes out, and she will be way more upset about the wasted time living in a lie. I would say you are complicit in wrong doing if you don't tell her now.
If the roles were reversed, would you want her to tell you the whole truth?
Yes, but everybody is different.
I pray for your husband poor man getting cheated on.
What husband?
"When we spoke she confirmed she had known about me the whole time and knew he was lying to me about all three things." This line here should really be your focus. This guy and his wife have whatever relationship they have. At this point, it is none of your business. You've actually done your part and have been in contact with his wife to let her know that you exist. There is nothing more for you to do. At this point, you just leave and turn the page on this chapter. Don't give this man or his family another thought. If the depth of your relationship with this man is a concern, she can ask her husband or she can ask you about it, given that you've introduced yourself. How much she wants to know is actually up to her; not you. If I can give another analogy. I come from a pretty religious background and while I was religious and seeking a wife, questions of the past would obviously be of concern. How much does each side want to know. It's not as simple as just tell them everything. Some people actually don't want to know. At the same time, you do want to let them know enough to have a basis for you. So I would say something like 'I'm not a virgin and have a past. In my head, those are the main things someone would need to know as a basis. Now if they want to inquire as the details of each past relationship or this or that, then they can ask. But there's no need to pointlessly come forth will all that detailed information. You've been honest enough with the wife to let her know you exist and you had some kind of relationship with her husband. It's on her to ask for details if she wants.
It's tough, and I get the dilemma. As said elsewhere, she knows. He also knows, and it's up to them now how to move forward and determine what is best for their family. You were never a part of the unit, only an influence on it. Therefore, you don't have the privilege to make decisions for it now. Go your own way.
But all she 'knows' is that we saw each other once a week to workout. She didn't know we kept on texting after she asked him to cut back on how much we were talking. He hid that. He hid that we were working out 3-4 times a week. He hid meeting up outside the gym. He hid the few trysts. He hid what he was feeling from her. She believed we were good friends, and were keeping to the guidelines she set up and expected to be honored. She heard from me that it was an emotional affair from my perspective and was upset at that but she thinks he wasn't part of the reciprocal feelings there. That he was being a friend with bad boundaries and keeping secrets to keep on with the bad boundaries. It's not possible for me to make their decisions. I don't think I should even if I could because they know themselves best. I do recognize that I have the privilege of holding knowledge she doesn't, which leads to thoughts of guilty obligation for me to share it. Like I need to let her make her final decision while she's on the same level of knowledge as her husband. I don't personally like the most likely consequences though or inflicting hurt, even if it can be qualified as a good hurt. I think they should put their martial fights to rest, get over this through marital therapy, and live happily ever after.
If you were her, would you want to know? Or would you wish the affair partner had told you? I totally understand not wanting to throw a grenade on a relationship that could adversely effect childrens lives. But you've gotta remember that he messed up this part of his life, NOT YOU. And you are in no way at fault, nor should you hold any guilt, because you didn't know the full truth of his martial status (because HE lied). To be honest, I feel like you should tell her. Because she's making a choice to continue the marriage based on an inaccurate set of beliefs. He lied to you about being married to her, then lied to her about the extent of his affair. Granted, I don't know any of you personally involved, so at the end of the day YOU know what's right more than anyone. Because I could just as easily see you wanting to move on from all of this and separate yourself from it, rather than dig up more dirt and flip so many peoples lives upside down. Do whatever helps you sleep at night. Unless he's secretly bat shit crazy and likely to show up at your house with a gun or something because his life got ruined. Then just go no contact all around for your own safety. But if I was you, I'd tell her what happened. Apologize and be honest about his lies, that you didn't know he was married because of what he told you. Then go no contact with all of them. Block, restraining order, whatever you've gotta do. Because idk about you, but if I was her I'd be really wishing someone had told me the whole truth.
The wife knows she can ask OP if further details are desired. OP is showing that she can't let go of this couple and looks to be planning to boil rabbits. Don't encourage her.
I agree. If I were in her shoes, I'd want to know the whole truth, no matter how painful it was. You owe that man nothing OP. He lied to both of you. Think of it this way, you tell her now and she makes an informed decision to stay or go. You don't tell her now, he gets away with it.. he then thinks he can get away with it again and does this with someone else. She finds out and you just prolong the hurt. It'll blow up one way or another. If he was truly sorry, he'd of confessed to the whole thing on his own to start from a blank slate and work to fix the marriage properly. Instead he's just looking out for himself. He's been selfish from the start. Take your rose tinted glasses off towards this guy - he's not a good guy. If he was, he wouldn't have lied to you and he'd of kept appropriate boundaries.
You are way too fixated on their business. Back off. Leave them alone. The wife knows where to find you if she has further questions.
Mind your own business! Move on with your life and leave other people alone. I hate social justice warriors. If you were my employee, I’d find a reason to fire you. If you were my friend, I’d cut you out. I’m not defending the guy. The issue here is you. You are your own problem here. You need to work your shit out with a therapist. If you don’t, you’re going to leave a wake of broken relationships in your path and always find a reason to make the other person look like the bad guy. In this case, the other guy is in the wrong, but I see the way you wrote here. You’re the problem.
Thanks for taking time to reply. I'm very open to being the problem here and curious how about how I'm the problem. I believe you. There's something wrong with me. I want to get better. Can you give me advice about what really irked you about my response(s)? Secondly, I'm confused about some things. How is it a social justice warrior thing to struggle with a rigid internal sense of ethics over lying vs. wanting to shield everybody from hard feelings to create the best possible outcome? I just think she's the most hurt party here and wanted to make sure lying to her was the best action.
I’m for not telling her. Since she knows how close you were, and knows how much he was away, she undoubtedly knows in her heart that he cheated. But her not knowing “explicitly” gives her some peace of mind and she may be forgive and move on. You say an ethical decision would be to tell her, but that only assuages your guilt. But you had your boundaries and followed them so you should not feel guilty. And you risk blowing up their marriage by telling her. If you did tell and the marriage folds, would you not feel guilty about that? Let it lie, heal yourself and go on about life.
Dude, take yourself out of the equation. You’re way overplaying your role
To me, finding a way to honestly communicate is better than hiding something. Neither situation is great, but you really have no good options. I would probably suggest you separate and don't even maintain friendship at least for a time to allow everyone to move forward. I don't know if I could actually follow that advice.
I'm already no contact with him. It's not been difficult since I've thrown myself into existing and new friendships.
Of course, be NC and no friendship forever. If you "don't know if [you] could actually follow that advice" then that is a big character flaw on you. How on earth would anyone think it appropriate to re-engage into that family's lives again.
I think the wife deserves to have the full information before she makes her decision moving forward. You should have been honest with her from the start, but hindsight is 20/20. Some people will forgive an emotional affair while viewing a physical one as a hard line. I personally think cheating is cheating, but she has a life and kids with this man and may have rationalized that as long as it wasn’t physical, they could work through it. She may suspect something physical happened but suspecting is one thing, and two people denying it might have been enough to dissuade her of that thought. I think morally the right thing to do is make sure she knows the full truth of the affair so she can decide if she wants to stay and put herself at risk of him doing the same thing again. I’d tell her and then block them both and remove yourself completely from the narrative moving forward.
tell the woman you fucked her husband jesus christ. she deserves to know.
I'm sorry the wife deserves to know what kind of person she actually married, and what's actually been going on. Right now you are deliberately lying by omission. He's not going to fully reconcile. He's going to end up falling for somebody else. You have this delusion that you are somehow special and unique and that he's never going to ever do this again. Bullshit - cheaters are cheaters and it's almost never just the one. You will just be the first in a string of women he does this with. You are not endangering relationship and harming those other people he is. He did the minute he stepped across the line into your bedroom. The minute he allowed that discussion to go way too far into sexual territory he was already emotionally cheating. You see me doing a whole lot of talking, trying to avoid and justify. It's very simple. You didn't know he wasn't actually single. Now you do. You've already directly interacted with his wife and chosen to keep up the lie once and it's eating way at you. I'm sorry, I think you owe the wife the truth and let the chips fall where they may.
OP: You are the human equivalent of toxic waste. You have no moral dilemma because you have no morals to begin with. The best possibly thing you could do is stay far away from all of these people and never have any contact with any of them ever again.
And what indicates that I have no morals?
The tattoos and body piercings.
I'm too conservative with my appearance to get either of those.