Yeah take off the ADM and it’s a good buy imo. $85 for them to deal with the documents is pretty standard, sometimes it’s even more. No idea what the tire fee is, but it’s $3.50 who gives a fuck lol
Some states impose a fee for the sale of new tires/batteries to offset the cost of disposal. It’s usually a dollar per tire and 1.50 for batteries in Florida. They probably threw the battery fee in if this is indeed Florida.
That’s not bad, usually way higher. But if I could charge for filling out a basic template of three pages on a computer and hit print, I’d be a multi-millionaire. Only professionals like lawyers and accountants charge for paperwork. It all adds up, they rely on consumers being fixated on a shiny new object. SHM
Doc fees are made up bullshit to up the price when you're getting ready to sign. It would be the same as you buying a bike from me for an agreed upon price, then me saying it will cost $500 for me to sign the title over.
It's straight bullshit, they know it, and I always to refuse to pay it.
At my dealership the doc fee (was $129 last I checked) covered the fee for submitting to the state and any other miscellaneous things. If a titling company was used it covered that fee. If we had to fed ex paperwork back and forth
So it’s not totally bullshit. ADM is total bullshit though.
I also worked at a dealership years ago. We charged a $12 title fee, because that's what the state charged.
There are a ton of expenses that are associated with running a dealership. They come out of the profit. Should they add on a utilities fee and a mortgage fee as well? What about a floor maintenance fee or a toilet scrubbing fee?
It's tacked on bullshit to up the price last minute.
So much nonsense and effort goes into title transfer . The state requires dealer to deal
With it . If they could just hand you a title that'd be cool but that's not all it takes . I agree the doc fees get redic but also paying a salaried title person to deal
With all the title work and getting reimbursed for it or just expecting the title work to be done for free is also redic. Imop
You're not nuts that dealership is. Id feel better if they got rid of all those fees that aren't for registering and license plate and just added 1k right to the MSRP. At least I wouldn't think I'm getting butt fucked then.
If they were willing to dump the ADM it’s a good deal. Honestly if you tried this at somewhere like RideNow. They won’t even consider it. Their fees are even bigger than this. Closer to 3k.
What sucks is RideNow is by far the largest chain in my area. So smaller shops feel that it’s justified to charge the same or slightly less. Two other local large shops are owned by people who left RideNow and continue the practice under their name.
Take that deal.
Yeah here in Dallas RideNow is everywhere. Workwd for them for a short time... Their fees are stupid. We had an SV650 with 8 miles on it. Yes. EIGHT. MILES.
Couldn't sell the fucker. Ridenow demanded that we charge $895 for a reconditioning fee. The moment that came up in negotiations, it was over. I th8nk we had that bike listed for under $4k at one point. Still couldn't sell it.
I could see why, I'd feel like it was a bait and switch at that point and probably still walk away from an ok deal just because I'd expect some chicanery
DFW here. I found a place in St. Louis that deals. Yes, ST Louis. Multiple times I’d make a roadtrip Friday night after work and be there when they open sat morning with a buddy and haul it back. The DFW area dealerships will sell that bike/car/atv to the next guy that walks in the door.
Damn. Thats a jaunt. But that’s fine for a seasoned rider or someone with a truck. But not helping the new riders. That’s quite a haul for someone that’s a new rider
I was interested in a 2019 Honda shadow phantom ridenow near me had last year, would’ve been my first bike I just loved the thing…had it listed for 6,000 and some change, the final total was over $13,000 with their shenanigans…last time I will ever come in contact with them, just absurd pricing and fees.
It's even more fucked when you realize that 5,700.00 "base" price isn't at cost for the dealer but with markup already in mind. So essentially they are making 50% gross margin for that bike.
Just a little FYI. I owned a Honda dealership where even during peak Covid and low supply I never charged more than MSRP plus destination. Never charged set up fee or doc fee. Our margins are nowhere even in the same ballpark of 50%.
I think you misread the above comment. They’re saying that when you consider the fact that the dealer is already buying the bikes below MSRP, once they tack on an *additional* $1000 markup on a $5600 MSRP bike they’ll likely be approaching 50% margin on this bike in particular.
Margins on small displacement Japanese bikes are honestly garbage, like 10 percent. I've seen invoices and trust me its garbage. Its like barely keep the lights on margins. With that markup they are probably between 20-30 percent margin, no more.
I live in Japan. Same thing. There is a $250 delivery fee, but I live on an island. So really understandable and not bad. Other than that it’s the list price.
Yeah, just one more reason I want to move to Australia and leave America. Lmao.
No I am not someone who’s leaving because politics. I’m leaving because US national debt crisis that will happen in the next ten to 20 years.
Yea. I don't have to deal with it and it makes me irrationally angry for you guys.
It's so dishonest to advertise one price and then charge a shitload more than that. I understand you do the whole before tax price thing and if it was just that then fine, you can easily calculate the cost before stepping foot in the dealership.
Having there being so much variation on price because your local dealer might be a bunch of greedy assholes with a shitty business model is ridiculous. There are fees integrated into the price here in Australia, but they are uniform fees. If I walk into a Kawasaki dealer here in Adelaide, or fly across the country to Brisbane and walk into a Kawasaki dealer there the bike costs the same.
And then you get special kinds of assholes like this dealership who are charging what everyone who has commented here says is too large of an ADM. And then they have the audacity to charge a document fee and electronic filing fee for doing the job they are already being paid to do. And a $3.50 tyre fee on top of that just because fuck you...
Yeah, force companies to show their true OOTD price and suddenly customer can pick and choose the cheapest instead of going thru whole song and dance just to see how much they are screwed in the end, and we can't have that!
Ask if they waive it you finance. If yes check to see if there is any penalty to paying the loan off early. If no, buy it and pay it off within 30 days.
Careful.
I asked the same question for the same reason on a new VW Passat. "No penalty".
They literally *forced* me not to finance with preferable terms (and buy with a cashiers check) by refusing to disclose the VIN # to my credit union.
So I caved as they promised me no rip off shenanigans.
When I was literally in the middle of making the deal, I saw there was a $675 "loan inception fee", and they wouldn't waive it. That was 2013 so I expect it's even higher now.
Deal breaker for me, as I felt deceived, and I feel agency to walk when I feel deceived.
Buyer Beware.
You may have shot yourself in the foot when you told him you would pay cash. Generally these days dealers want you to finance because they stand to make more money that way. That has nothing to do with the quote though. The ADM may just be because it's the new desirable model, I'd see if they're quoting that on other bikes that have been around/on the floor longer. Everything else was within reason or not big enough to quibble over.
Damn thought cash was king lol. I see what u saying tho. But they put an ADM on everything. That was the lowest i saw on the floor. They marked up the CFMOTO SS 2.1K.
No they want to negotiate an interest rate that will get them more money over the life of the term.
Selling vehicles has nothing to do with giving the customer a product.
That's because most of reddit knows nothing about finance or even basic economic theory. Actually, you mostly get downvoted to infinity if you dare to explain how things *actually* work in the economy and why things are as they are.
If you sign up for financing, make sure there isn’t any early repayment penalty. Also, some lenders will claw back any dealer bonus if the loan is paid off within a certain number of months so don’t mention this part if you intend to pay it off right away.
This. I got a loan for the price I wanted, financed through the dealer. They gave me an insane 14.99% interest rate which made me mad. So I paid the first payment, middle of month two I paid it off. Insure no early payoff fee and don’t mention you can pay cash. I gave them a couple grand up front, so I suspect they didn’t know I could pay for it. Had they been in line with my other loan I’d have paid it monthly.
For anyone that reads this MOST "normal" loans dont have an early payoff fee because it violates predatory lending laws in a lot of states.
Sad to say if you live in a red state, your results may vary
They hate it even more when you get a loan elsewhere.
In general you should ideally get only one product from the dealership - the vehicle.
Everything else you can shop around, and in many cases you can get the very same vehicle through another dealer. In fact dealers circulate cars among themselves, at least in Europe this is not uncommon. Holds true also for used vehicles.
See what you do is let them sell you the loan after you negotiate down all the dealer mark ups and add ons. Straight “no” to every warranty and service plan BS. Then about 30 days later you pay off the loan in full.
The idea of paying the dealer their freight charges is the most asinine way of passing the costs to the customer. I shouldn’t have to pay for your freight charges for shipping a good you want to sell me. Shit stains, the whole dealership model
> In order to keep the advertised price the same across all locations,
That's the entire fucking problem! If you don't include the fees customer can't pick out better deal easier, without going thru whole song and dance.
Lol 2014-17 was a different time man. Now everything is just crazy expensive for some reason. Stuff like this is definitely a reason though, pure greed
How's dealership in US works? I mean don't they already getting profit selling the bike at MSRP? In my country, they're already getting profit selling the bike/cars at MSRP. They even almost always gives discount from msrp, something like $200 for $3600 Ninja 250, or $1000 for a $19000 Toyota. They only mark up price for cars/bikes that's in high demand, like new models, but then again not by much.
Presuming this is the US. There really needs to be regulations on added fees for anything, vehicles or not. Try buying contacts online. Anywhere you go, the advertised price is half what you pay due to "handling fees."
Government isn't doing its job. The price should be the price.
Man, get used from someone who is clean and have it inspected first by a dealership or local mechanic. Save yourself a few thousands of dollars! Cycle trader and Facebook marketplace are my go toos
Why don't you just negotiate the final fee? Then you don't care what they charge for each bit. "I am only willing to pay $.... on the road, including all the fees".
The ADM is bullshit. Literal cash grab. Tire fee on a new bike is also bullshit.
Doc fee, that varies. Stone cold reality from a lifetime in dealers is that the dealer employs title clerks to process your paperwork. In KY, legally, if a dealer charges a doc fee on one deal, they MUST charge it on all. That said, you can negotiate a discount in that amount. When I was in the powersports business, I lost deals because people could not grasp this concept. 'If it's on that paper, I'm not buying it!'. Dude...I discounted it by the cost of the doc fee? 'I don't care!'. Good luck buying any new vehicle anywhere around, buddy!
People often don't understand the legalities surrounding dealership operations, and a lot of them vary state to state.
Also, paying cash isn't a plus. It doesn't give you a position of strength. Dealers make money on finance depending on the lender. Sometimes, not, and in those cases, they won't care cash or finance.
If you negotiate out the adm, tire fee, and doc, you've got a very fair deal because there is not much markup at all in that bike. Even with the doc fee, it's not terrible. If the dealer doesn't make money, where would people buy bikes? Or get them serviced? Or have warranty repairs done? They gotta stay in business.
$1.5k or so over MSRP for OTD pricing is pretty much the norm, and that's what I expect anyways.
Some dealers are higher though.
DMV area for me.
Freight, destination, setup, misc fees, docs, reg, title, tag, tax, etc.
My MSRP was $5.6k on my last Ninja, $7.1k OTD.
My purchase price: https://postimg.cc/wySzT2Zr
Tell em to kick rocks bud - those fees are a red flag, way higher than average. Expect to pay around $800 in fees on a bike at that price point, plus taxes. Ninjas are the Honda Civic of the motorcycle world - reliable, good resale value, common as fuck. That’s a great thing in terms of value, but a bitch when dealers think they can charge whatever and some sucker will pay because the product is good. Keep looking, that’s a solid first bike 👍 stand your ground and jump if something seems fishy. Also, call around to dealers out of your area. Last year I bought my Z900 and Z125 both brand new within 2 weeks of each other from the comfort of my office by calling around and getting firm invoiced offers on specific bikes, then went with my final offers from those out of area dealers (most were either sketchy or rude, made me feel like the deal would change once I drove way out there) back to my local shop, they matched each one and I was able to literally walk from my office to the dealer and ride the bikes home. Its also worth driving a bit for a good deal, Not necessarily just for price, but also for someone who is forthcoming and not a sketchy asshole. Tons of Ninjas out there man. Also don’t count out the 20-23’ Ninja 400’s, you just might find some lightly used ones under $5200, going rate for a low mileage one in my area is between $4500-5300. Good luck!
Lots of great used bikes out there much less, and no tax. Want a commuter get a Suzuki sv650, want a cruiser get a Honda shadow, want a rocket, get a gixxer.
My dealer used to knock off a few hundred quid to make the finance essentially 0% interest if it wasn't allready. They were nice guys but I did also buy 3 bikes from them in 2 years. Wouldn't dream of paying over the msrp for a new bike.
Heck, I would sell you my mint zx10 for that total otd price cash. Anyhoot, like some other have said. Best to get used as first ride. Learn how to do maintenance on it and grow. A bike you maintain yourself will be one you feel a part of. You can even bring a previously poor maintained bike back to life and into mean shape. What I ended up doing with a 650 and as result have very little concern working on my zx10. Still looking and running like new. Good luck and keep the rubber on the road.
I don't know if it's by law, but here in the UK prices of vehicles are usually OTR (on the road)... there are always things that can be added, and usually are as advertised OTR prices are base models... but those are optional... if you want you can buy base models without options for the advertised OTR price, which even includes registration..
Look, my 1st bike was in the 80’s 900gpz ninja was used with 2800 miles from a cycle world editor.….dont buy new especially a 500!!! Not your last bike you will drop it, love it, hate it but new is not wise. If you do buy new negotiate the 1400 dealer fees for god sake...I hope you didn't finance?!
This is why I but used and private. Let someone else burn their dollars and I'll get it from them in couple years at half the price because they dropped it at a gas station once and there's a scuff on it.
When I bought my wife’s Ninja 400 in 2021 I paid MSRP plus ttl. The first dealer marked it up to $5800 before everything, the second dealer I walked out the door for $5800. Definitely shop around. That dealer knows someone will pay the mark up.
ADM is a no-go, everything else is "okay" imho. In fact they didn't even add a "setup" fee, so when that $1010 ADM fee is removed, you'll probably get a $300 setup fee ...
Actually it's a really good quote. Everything makes sense and everything is pretty decently priced except (additional dealer markup?) ADM.
Often I've seen freight of $100+ and then a dealer assembly fee of another $1000+ and much higher documentation fee. At least he you just have to negotiate one thing down rather than 4.
Governments in most (all?) Canadian provinces charge a fee on every new tire sold whether it's a replacement or attached to a new vehicle. Buy a new car here and there is a tire stewardship fee for 4 tires on the bill of sale.
If you have cash why would you take the depreciation hit right off the showroom? Buy a slightly used model for less from a private seller and then you won’t have all the fees and it’ll be less
Here in nz for my bike, it was $8790 plus ( the rest of the numbers are rounded because I don't know them exactly)
110 warrant of fitness
450 registration
150 assembly
So out the door, it was $9500
I genuinely don’t see a single benefit besides longevity for buying new over used. I also am shocked that the market for new isn’t dead because everyone going to buy a bike isn’t stupid enough to go grab a brand new one for 2k over MSRP and all those fees.
The new market will never die. And if it did, the used market will die slowly, in the years following. Just remember, every motorcycle (and vehicle in general) that you buy used, was once bought new at a dealership. If no one is buying new, then the used market isn’t being fed a supply of vehicles.
Regardless of cost over MSRP there’s always someone willing to buy.
I got over it long ago. 1990 I walked into a dealership I'd been sparing with, with the title for my trade in (which I needed gone) and a big bag of cash. Showed them my title and the bag of cash. Somehow they made it work, suddenly. Near closing time. The suggestion of "tomorrow" was met with, "no chance." I haven't tried that on a motorcycle, but I'm going to go test drive a couple this week!
I am new to the motorcycle world but is paying over MSRP normal? I paid $100 below MSRP for my KLR but I really had to shop around and most dealers acted like paying thousands over was just normal. I assumed they were dishonest and trying to rip me off.
The heck is a 'tire fee'?
Document fees aren't crazy, you're paying for their person to file all the appropriate paperwork so you own the bike. $1k markup is ridiculous.
Good on you for being wiling to walk though.
Can tell you right now it’s because it’s the white edition. Not saying is a justified mark up but I went to get a white from a dealer and they said they haven’t had a white stay at a dealership longer than a week.
I went through the exact same thing last Sept for my Tuono \[$1100 freight, $500 docs\]. The worst part is that all these admin fees are pre-tax and so, you see a big jump when the sales tax kicks in. My dealer threw in some free parts and a track day to make up for it. The shittier part was that Aprilia's discount was only put in post-tax.
At least in the case of Aprilia, I learned that their NA shipments all go to TX and then shipped out from there at dealer cost. It's shitty that they transfer that cost out to customers but Aprilia burns them and no one is willing to eat it, so we end up with it.
For a fast-moving brand, multiple dealerships and a new model like the Ninja 500, don't see why the dealer wouldn't budge but you're likely going to see variations of the same quote elsewhere unfortunately +/- a few hundred bucks. But it seems like the standard now is to charge all those crappy fees. Best suggestion would be to wait it out or buy a used 400.
Why not just get a 400? Even a new one would be significantly cheaper, because it's not a brand new bike like the 500 is. Plus, it's only 2 more HP and 2 more ft lbs of torque.
I’m in Oregon so take it with grain of salt but bought my bought brand new in February with the dealer fee being only ~$200.
Everyone out there is trying to screw you but there should be a couple playing the game fair. Don’t lose hope!
It’s nice of them to specifically outline how they’re gonna tack on another ~20% of the MSRP because they feel like it lmao.
Anyways, this dealer can fuck right off with their 1000 dollar markup on a 5500 dollar bike. Take your money elsewhere, don’t reward this nonsense.
Anyone who buys Japanese new is a tool. IMO
My Triumph was MSRP plus TTL. Only place I found in Wisconsin to sell new at MSRP has been BMW and Triumph dealers.
Damn, that really sucks.
I just bought my 24' N1K, and was fairly lucky. Dealer got me at MSRP ($13,699), plus the freight fees. My OTD was like $14,147 + CO sales tax
I'd find a new dealer. I know my dealer had a Ninja 500 40th anniversary edition when I was there last week for the same deal I got my N1K for (MSRP + freight + Sales Tax). Small dealership, but they were awesome to work with
Edit: If you don't mind the jaunt to CO, go ahead and DM me and I can send you my dealer's info
That's ridiculous for a ninja 500. But the last time I brought a new bike was 2018. I let them have their doc fee but was unwilling to pay anything more than their advertised price (+doc) and tax title and licensing fees, anything more and I walk.
Remember who ever wants the deal the least will usually end up better in the end. And there's plenty of places to go that won't charge you all the markups.
I don't know what it's like in other countries but it looks like OP is in Canads. Here all dealers charge a Doc fee, plus Freight/PDI and it generally adds up to $1500 on top of MSRP. I haven't heard of dealer fees being waived in negotiations unless it's on really old stock so either you pay it or you don't buy new. The dealer position seems to be, either you pay it or someone else will.
The 400 3 years ago in Canada was $3400 CAD sticker price NEW. Who the hell was selling one for 6k? That thing must have been pimped out.
Edit: 6 years ago sorry time fucked me again
Yeh 1k and they won’t even tell you what it’s for geez yeh thank god you walked out if your paying cash there are plenty of other dealers that will work with you. My Honda dealership actually knocked 700 dollars off when I told them I was gonna pay cash and buy today of course it was the end of the month and guy needed 2 more sales to meet quota lol
If you are in the US this is normal, they assemble the bike in the shop, put oil in it gas it up, that junk is the charge. I didn't like it either. It's crap. But now you know why.
in Mexico .. to that price... they add 3000 USD markup just because.. and.. the manufacturer cheaps out in parts to latam market .(im lookin at you husqvarna..)
I know you guys aren't going to believe me, but I am speaking the truth. I bought a 2017 Ninja 1000 new at a dealership that didn't charge fees. They sold it $700 below MSRP and there was a $750 rebate at the time that pushed it further. I was out the door for I think around $11,000 and that was just due to sales tax. Bought a 2nd bike from there in 2018 and there were still no fees (no rebate on that one). If I knew for certain they were still doing business that way, I'd obviously be naming dropping. If you're in northern Colorado, you probably already know who I'm referring to. Good folks there.
I wish I would have done what you did and ask Reddit if my deal was okay. The way they explained it made perfect sense. They did me dirty with the price and I just went along. Never again. Find a different dealer.
you did the right thing. that is a lot of BS added to the already agreed upon MSRP. i am sure Kawasaki would not be happy with the dealer adding these..
Welcome to the bike buying experience in California.
This behavior unfortunately is unavoidable.
It was much worse at the height of Covid, markups were 2-3k even on used bikes.
To those saying "walk away", where are you walking to? All dealers especially owned by Del Amo will give you the same BS.
Ehh I could live with the doc and tire fees. ADM is a dealbreaker though, especially when it's that high.
Yeah take off the ADM and it’s a good buy imo. $85 for them to deal with the documents is pretty standard, sometimes it’s even more. No idea what the tire fee is, but it’s $3.50 who gives a fuck lol
Some states impose a fee for the sale of new tires/batteries to offset the cost of disposal. It’s usually a dollar per tire and 1.50 for batteries in Florida. They probably threw the battery fee in if this is indeed Florida.
85 doc fee in FL? Lol, op is more likely in CA where it's capped by state legislation and regulations.
What's it in Florida the freedom state ? Like 450$ or something?
Last time I went to a dealership to price a bike doc fee was $150.
That’s not bad, usually way higher. But if I could charge for filling out a basic template of three pages on a computer and hit print, I’d be a multi-millionaire. Only professionals like lawyers and accountants charge for paperwork. It all adds up, they rely on consumers being fixated on a shiny new object. SHM
It's the fee for getting tires. You could wave that fee but they take the tires and rims back/s
Doc fees are made up bullshit to up the price when you're getting ready to sign. It would be the same as you buying a bike from me for an agreed upon price, then me saying it will cost $500 for me to sign the title over. It's straight bullshit, they know it, and I always to refuse to pay it.
At my dealership the doc fee (was $129 last I checked) covered the fee for submitting to the state and any other miscellaneous things. If a titling company was used it covered that fee. If we had to fed ex paperwork back and forth So it’s not totally bullshit. ADM is total bullshit though.
I also worked at a dealership years ago. We charged a $12 title fee, because that's what the state charged. There are a ton of expenses that are associated with running a dealership. They come out of the profit. Should they add on a utilities fee and a mortgage fee as well? What about a floor maintenance fee or a toilet scrubbing fee? It's tacked on bullshit to up the price last minute.
Well said.
So much nonsense and effort goes into title transfer . The state requires dealer to deal With it . If they could just hand you a title that'd be cool but that's not all it takes . I agree the doc fees get redic but also paying a salaried title person to deal With all the title work and getting reimbursed for it or just expecting the title work to be done for free is also redic. Imop
1+k dealer mark up? They can pound some sand.
I thought so. Man thought I was crazy for a sec. Appreciate the confirmation.
You're not nuts that dealership is. Id feel better if they got rid of all those fees that aren't for registering and license plate and just added 1k right to the MSRP. At least I wouldn't think I'm getting butt fucked then.
If they were willing to dump the ADM it’s a good deal. Honestly if you tried this at somewhere like RideNow. They won’t even consider it. Their fees are even bigger than this. Closer to 3k. What sucks is RideNow is by far the largest chain in my area. So smaller shops feel that it’s justified to charge the same or slightly less. Two other local large shops are owned by people who left RideNow and continue the practice under their name. Take that deal.
Yeah here in Dallas RideNow is everywhere. Workwd for them for a short time... Their fees are stupid. We had an SV650 with 8 miles on it. Yes. EIGHT. MILES. Couldn't sell the fucker. Ridenow demanded that we charge $895 for a reconditioning fee. The moment that came up in negotiations, it was over. I th8nk we had that bike listed for under $4k at one point. Still couldn't sell it.
Fuck RideNow. They suck
Phoenix is the same way
I picked up 17’ sv650 in 18 for $4500, which I thought was so worth it.
I could see why, I'd feel like it was a bait and switch at that point and probably still walk away from an ok deal just because I'd expect some chicanery
DFW here. I found a place in St. Louis that deals. Yes, ST Louis. Multiple times I’d make a roadtrip Friday night after work and be there when they open sat morning with a buddy and haul it back. The DFW area dealerships will sell that bike/car/atv to the next guy that walks in the door.
Damn. Thats a jaunt. But that’s fine for a seasoned rider or someone with a truck. But not helping the new riders. That’s quite a haul for someone that’s a new rider
U-Haul motorcycle trailer $15 a day. 2 people, coffee, tunes, maybe a gummy, who knows.
Okay, fine, I'm in.
Document fee, tire fee, freight fee need to go as well
Yep RideNow in Fort Worth and Weatherford to Decatur.
My buddy bought a 2020 cbr300r with 7k on the Odo for 6k with a service plan. This was just under a year ago
I was interested in a 2019 Honda shadow phantom ridenow near me had last year, would’ve been my first bike I just loved the thing…had it listed for 6,000 and some change, the final total was over $13,000 with their shenanigans…last time I will ever come in contact with them, just absurd pricing and fees.
That sounds about like my experience
Good call on your part man. That dealership sucks ass
They had 2k dealer markups when I was looking at eliminators last year… ended up getting a used Vulcan 900 at another place
Yea that's fucked. Here in Australia advertised price is rideaway price by law. And that bike is being sold for the equivalent of $5875 USD rideaway.
It's even more fucked when you realize that 5,700.00 "base" price isn't at cost for the dealer but with markup already in mind. So essentially they are making 50% gross margin for that bike.
Just a little FYI. I owned a Honda dealership where even during peak Covid and low supply I never charged more than MSRP plus destination. Never charged set up fee or doc fee. Our margins are nowhere even in the same ballpark of 50%.
I think you misread the above comment. They’re saying that when you consider the fact that the dealer is already buying the bikes below MSRP, once they tack on an *additional* $1000 markup on a $5600 MSRP bike they’ll likely be approaching 50% margin on this bike in particular.
Margins on small displacement Japanese bikes are honestly garbage, like 10 percent. I've seen invoices and trust me its garbage. Its like barely keep the lights on margins. With that markup they are probably between 20-30 percent margin, no more.
I wish so bad that was the case everywhere, but the lobbyists would never let that happen
I live in Japan. Same thing. There is a $250 delivery fee, but I live on an island. So really understandable and not bad. Other than that it’s the list price.
Yeah, just one more reason I want to move to Australia and leave America. Lmao. No I am not someone who’s leaving because politics. I’m leaving because US national debt crisis that will happen in the next ten to 20 years.
Yea. I don't have to deal with it and it makes me irrationally angry for you guys. It's so dishonest to advertise one price and then charge a shitload more than that. I understand you do the whole before tax price thing and if it was just that then fine, you can easily calculate the cost before stepping foot in the dealership. Having there being so much variation on price because your local dealer might be a bunch of greedy assholes with a shitty business model is ridiculous. There are fees integrated into the price here in Australia, but they are uniform fees. If I walk into a Kawasaki dealer here in Adelaide, or fly across the country to Brisbane and walk into a Kawasaki dealer there the bike costs the same. And then you get special kinds of assholes like this dealership who are charging what everyone who has commented here says is too large of an ADM. And then they have the audacity to charge a document fee and electronic filing fee for doing the job they are already being paid to do. And a $3.50 tyre fee on top of that just because fuck you...
Yeah, force companies to show their true OOTD price and suddenly customer can pick and choose the cheapest instead of going thru whole song and dance just to see how much they are screwed in the end, and we can't have that!
Ask if they waive it you finance. If yes check to see if there is any penalty to paying the loan off early. If no, buy it and pay it off within 30 days.
Careful. I asked the same question for the same reason on a new VW Passat. "No penalty". They literally *forced* me not to finance with preferable terms (and buy with a cashiers check) by refusing to disclose the VIN # to my credit union. So I caved as they promised me no rip off shenanigans. When I was literally in the middle of making the deal, I saw there was a $675 "loan inception fee", and they wouldn't waive it. That was 2013 so I expect it's even higher now. Deal breaker for me, as I felt deceived, and I feel agency to walk when I feel deceived. Buyer Beware.
Yeah, it’s best to read the fine print. Bring a magnifying glass if you need to.
Also do not be afraid to walk away. Even if they say you can’t. Because mostly that’s total bs.
Finally, somebody used the magic words "walk away".
You should feel agency to walk away at any point before the deal is done tbh.
$1100 in ADM?!? That dealer can eat the biggest bag of dicks.
There's also a $895 dick eating fee, before tax
You may have shot yourself in the foot when you told him you would pay cash. Generally these days dealers want you to finance because they stand to make more money that way. That has nothing to do with the quote though. The ADM may just be because it's the new desirable model, I'd see if they're quoting that on other bikes that have been around/on the floor longer. Everything else was within reason or not big enough to quibble over.
Damn thought cash was king lol. I see what u saying tho. But they put an ADM on everything. That was the lowest i saw on the floor. They marked up the CFMOTO SS 2.1K.
No they want to negotiate an interest rate that will get them more money over the life of the term. Selling vehicles has nothing to do with giving the customer a product.
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That's because most of reddit knows nothing about finance or even basic economic theory. Actually, you mostly get downvoted to infinity if you dare to explain how things *actually* work in the economy and why things are as they are.
I dunno why you put "reddit" there, most people in general don't, we'd have far less people with screwed up finances otherwise.
Exactly that's what they're incentived to sell.
If you sign up for financing, make sure there isn’t any early repayment penalty. Also, some lenders will claw back any dealer bonus if the loan is paid off within a certain number of months so don’t mention this part if you intend to pay it off right away.
This. I got a loan for the price I wanted, financed through the dealer. They gave me an insane 14.99% interest rate which made me mad. So I paid the first payment, middle of month two I paid it off. Insure no early payoff fee and don’t mention you can pay cash. I gave them a couple grand up front, so I suspect they didn’t know I could pay for it. Had they been in line with my other loan I’d have paid it monthly.
For anyone that reads this MOST "normal" loans dont have an early payoff fee because it violates predatory lending laws in a lot of states. Sad to say if you live in a red state, your results may vary
Still is when dealing with private sales. I'd look elsewhere then.
Dealerships hate cash deals. Warranty and Financing/Leasing is where they make their money.
They hate it even more when you get a loan elsewhere. In general you should ideally get only one product from the dealership - the vehicle. Everything else you can shop around, and in many cases you can get the very same vehicle through another dealer. In fact dealers circulate cars among themselves, at least in Europe this is not uncommon. Holds true also for used vehicles.
See what you do is let them sell you the loan after you negotiate down all the dealer mark ups and add ons. Straight “no” to every warranty and service plan BS. Then about 30 days later you pay off the loan in full.
ADM, also known as the "sucker tax." Fuck that shit. Buy used.
The idea of paying the dealer their freight charges is the most asinine way of passing the costs to the customer. I shouldn’t have to pay for your freight charges for shipping a good you want to sell me. Shit stains, the whole dealership model
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> In order to keep the advertised price the same across all locations, That's the entire fucking problem! If you don't include the fees customer can't pick out better deal easier, without going thru whole song and dance.
It's as insane as paying banks insurance on your loan. Yet its always there.
What you don’t realize is that you’ve been paying shipping forever. The only difference between today and 10 years ago is it’s now a line item.
You did good..MSRP already is frosting on the cake. They just wanted extra…
A little too damn extra lol
Let the suckers buy it new and take the hit lol
8k for a starter bike is wild. I paid 10k for my R1 with 1k miles on it.
Lol 2014-17 was a different time man. Now everything is just crazy expensive for some reason. Stuff like this is definitely a reason though, pure greed
How's dealership in US works? I mean don't they already getting profit selling the bike at MSRP? In my country, they're already getting profit selling the bike/cars at MSRP. They even almost always gives discount from msrp, something like $200 for $3600 Ninja 250, or $1000 for a $19000 Toyota. They only mark up price for cars/bikes that's in high demand, like new models, but then again not by much.
They’re getting you on financing here, plus the accessories. The adm fees and markup are just profit.
ADM fee is the only real BS here, everything else is pretty standard non negotiable.
Presuming this is the US. There really needs to be regulations on added fees for anything, vehicles or not. Try buying contacts online. Anywhere you go, the advertised price is half what you pay due to "handling fees." Government isn't doing its job. The price should be the price.
I just paid that much for my 40th anniversary edition. That’s a huge markup
it's good you walked out. that's the most power you hve in this situation
Brother you could have got a nice 750 for cheaper than that. Little older but nice.
Only thing I see bad there is the 1k markup
They hosed you !
Didn't buy, but damn it they tried
Good for you !
Tf is a markup for? 🤣 Go to another dealer or go buy a cbr500r instead
Go to Facebook marketplace, buy slightly used, save thousands.
I just want to be sure, the msrp on the kawa page, is it with tax or without? And holy shit that markup is insane
And then when you take delivery, not even the clutch has been adjusted on the bike.
Man, get used from someone who is clean and have it inspected first by a dealership or local mechanic. Save yourself a few thousands of dollars! Cycle trader and Facebook marketplace are my go toos
it’s a ninja 500. Buy a used one!
The old Ninja 500’s are better part of 440lbs wet and have carbs. The 400 is a much better motorcycle.
I think you did exactly the right thing.
Merica? Those absurdities always comes from Merica.... ☺️
Why don't you just negotiate the final fee? Then you don't care what they charge for each bit. "I am only willing to pay $.... on the road, including all the fees".
The ADM is bullshit. Literal cash grab. Tire fee on a new bike is also bullshit. Doc fee, that varies. Stone cold reality from a lifetime in dealers is that the dealer employs title clerks to process your paperwork. In KY, legally, if a dealer charges a doc fee on one deal, they MUST charge it on all. That said, you can negotiate a discount in that amount. When I was in the powersports business, I lost deals because people could not grasp this concept. 'If it's on that paper, I'm not buying it!'. Dude...I discounted it by the cost of the doc fee? 'I don't care!'. Good luck buying any new vehicle anywhere around, buddy! People often don't understand the legalities surrounding dealership operations, and a lot of them vary state to state. Also, paying cash isn't a plus. It doesn't give you a position of strength. Dealers make money on finance depending on the lender. Sometimes, not, and in those cases, they won't care cash or finance. If you negotiate out the adm, tire fee, and doc, you've got a very fair deal because there is not much markup at all in that bike. Even with the doc fee, it's not terrible. If the dealer doesn't make money, where would people buy bikes? Or get them serviced? Or have warranty repairs done? They gotta stay in business.
Missing the seat softness fee, the mirror functionality fee and the side stand fee
$1.5k or so over MSRP for OTD pricing is pretty much the norm, and that's what I expect anyways. Some dealers are higher though. DMV area for me. Freight, destination, setup, misc fees, docs, reg, title, tag, tax, etc. My MSRP was $5.6k on my last Ninja, $7.1k OTD. My purchase price: https://postimg.cc/wySzT2Zr
Not worth it imo
Someone said the old style 500 is faster
Yeah this new 500 is actually the 451cc from the Eliminator, a cruiser engine on a Ninja lol
Tell em to kick rocks bud - those fees are a red flag, way higher than average. Expect to pay around $800 in fees on a bike at that price point, plus taxes. Ninjas are the Honda Civic of the motorcycle world - reliable, good resale value, common as fuck. That’s a great thing in terms of value, but a bitch when dealers think they can charge whatever and some sucker will pay because the product is good. Keep looking, that’s a solid first bike 👍 stand your ground and jump if something seems fishy. Also, call around to dealers out of your area. Last year I bought my Z900 and Z125 both brand new within 2 weeks of each other from the comfort of my office by calling around and getting firm invoiced offers on specific bikes, then went with my final offers from those out of area dealers (most were either sketchy or rude, made me feel like the deal would change once I drove way out there) back to my local shop, they matched each one and I was able to literally walk from my office to the dealer and ride the bikes home. Its also worth driving a bit for a good deal, Not necessarily just for price, but also for someone who is forthcoming and not a sketchy asshole. Tons of Ninjas out there man. Also don’t count out the 20-23’ Ninja 400’s, you just might find some lightly used ones under $5200, going rate for a low mileage one in my area is between $4500-5300. Good luck!
I'm in Canada and the base model I got quoted for otd is $9k and that's with discount too. Se is $1k more.😅
Lots of great used bikes out there much less, and no tax. Want a commuter get a Suzuki sv650, want a cruiser get a Honda shadow, want a rocket, get a gixxer.
My dealer used to knock off a few hundred quid to make the finance essentially 0% interest if it wasn't allready. They were nice guys but I did also buy 3 bikes from them in 2 years. Wouldn't dream of paying over the msrp for a new bike.
Heck, I would sell you my mint zx10 for that total otd price cash. Anyhoot, like some other have said. Best to get used as first ride. Learn how to do maintenance on it and grow. A bike you maintain yourself will be one you feel a part of. You can even bring a previously poor maintained bike back to life and into mean shape. What I ended up doing with a 650 and as result have very little concern working on my zx10. Still looking and running like new. Good luck and keep the rubber on the road.
TIL they make ninja 500s again
If ADM is $1,000 and you talk them down $800, you still paid MSRP plus $200
I don't know if it's by law, but here in the UK prices of vehicles are usually OTR (on the road)... there are always things that can be added, and usually are as advertised OTR prices are base models... but those are optional... if you want you can buy base models without options for the advertised OTR price, which even includes registration..
Look, my 1st bike was in the 80’s 900gpz ninja was used with 2800 miles from a cycle world editor.….dont buy new especially a 500!!! Not your last bike you will drop it, love it, hate it but new is not wise. If you do buy new negotiate the 1400 dealer fees for god sake...I hope you didn't finance?!
This is why I but used and private. Let someone else burn their dollars and I'll get it from them in couple years at half the price because they dropped it at a gas station once and there's a scuff on it.
When I bought my wife’s Ninja 400 in 2021 I paid MSRP plus ttl. The first dealer marked it up to $5800 before everything, the second dealer I walked out the door for $5800. Definitely shop around. That dealer knows someone will pay the mark up.
No effing way
Tell them take that shit off or you walk. Nobody is forcing us to pay markup
Hshahshs Fuck no. Buy a 2 month old used one for 4k man someone always buys a 250 300 500 etc and a month later wants. 600.
Electronic filing fee WTF IS THAT and ADM no more than 500. Keep looking. Where are you? State wise?
Oof
For 8k you could get a much better bike then a little 500 shop around and don't be scared to go look in another state
ADM is a no-go, everything else is "okay" imho. In fact they didn't even add a "setup" fee, so when that $1010 ADM fee is removed, you'll probably get a $300 setup fee ...
Good ol FBC
Lmao...adm. Tell em to kick rocks and it's your dealership now.
Nuts? It’s straight up Bullshit period.
Actually it's a really good quote. Everything makes sense and everything is pretty decently priced except (additional dealer markup?) ADM. Often I've seen freight of $100+ and then a dealer assembly fee of another $1000+ and much higher documentation fee. At least he you just have to negotiate one thing down rather than 4.
I feel like $1500 in freight and setup is pretty standard. I only buy used bikes
That's why you don't buy new. Used bikes are just as good and you sell them for almost the same price you bought it for.
Get a used bike
Dude, don’t buy a brand new 500. Buy used, ride it for a year, sell it for Dang near what you bought it for, and buy a 600.
Adm for what ? A new bike ? The F are they charging you for 😂
You can get a 2023 ninja 400 with like 200 miles for $5k cash.
Tire fee??? Bwahahahaha
I'd just buy a 400 for $3500.
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Governments in most (all?) Canadian provinces charge a fee on every new tire sold whether it's a replacement or attached to a new vehicle. Buy a new car here and there is a tire stewardship fee for 4 tires on the bill of sale.
If you have cash why would you take the depreciation hit right off the showroom? Buy a slightly used model for less from a private seller and then you won’t have all the fees and it’ll be less
THIS is the best option for cash… 100%
Are there any other Kawi dealerships within 4 hours ? I've seen places where you can save a lot of money.
Most that I talk to will remove all the ADM fees if you ask. most will have an ADM fee new or not.
I’d sign up for that 7.75% tax! We pay 21% here…
Here in nz for my bike, it was $8790 plus ( the rest of the numbers are rounded because I don't know them exactly) 110 warrant of fitness 450 registration 150 assembly So out the door, it was $9500
Cash doesn’t mean much to dealers, maybe you can try your luck with private sellers on Cycle Trader but they’re most likely selling used ones
I genuinely don’t see a single benefit besides longevity for buying new over used. I also am shocked that the market for new isn’t dead because everyone going to buy a bike isn’t stupid enough to go grab a brand new one for 2k over MSRP and all those fees.
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Yeah, But you buy nee for 7k, then spend 1k on exhaust an accessories. The 5k used bike will already have a killer exhaust.
The new market will never die. And if it did, the used market will die slowly, in the years following. Just remember, every motorcycle (and vehicle in general) that you buy used, was once bought new at a dealership. If no one is buying new, then the used market isn’t being fed a supply of vehicles. Regardless of cost over MSRP there’s always someone willing to buy.
Walk out these are available elsewhere
You are not crazy. That's just an attempt to take money from stupid people.
Precisely why buying slightly used is the way. It’s much easier to negotiate away all the ADMs
What is adm?
Might as well get the Ninja 400. It’s quite literally the same bike and it should be cheaper.
Some dealers add a big dealer setup charges also
What is ADM?
I got over it long ago. 1990 I walked into a dealership I'd been sparing with, with the title for my trade in (which I needed gone) and a big bag of cash. Showed them my title and the bag of cash. Somehow they made it work, suddenly. Near closing time. The suggestion of "tomorrow" was met with, "no chance." I haven't tried that on a motorcycle, but I'm going to go test drive a couple this week!
The ninja 500 has been over hyped so dealer ships are going to mark em up
I am new to the motorcycle world but is paying over MSRP normal? I paid $100 below MSRP for my KLR but I really had to shop around and most dealers acted like paying thousands over was just normal. I assumed they were dishonest and trying to rip me off.
The heck is a 'tire fee'? Document fees aren't crazy, you're paying for their person to file all the appropriate paperwork so you own the bike. $1k markup is ridiculous. Good on you for being wiling to walk though.
That's funny! For a bike that isn't even that high in demand.
ABSOLUTELY NO
Can tell you right now it’s because it’s the white edition. Not saying is a justified mark up but I went to get a white from a dealer and they said they haven’t had a white stay at a dealership longer than a week.
I went through the exact same thing last Sept for my Tuono \[$1100 freight, $500 docs\]. The worst part is that all these admin fees are pre-tax and so, you see a big jump when the sales tax kicks in. My dealer threw in some free parts and a track day to make up for it. The shittier part was that Aprilia's discount was only put in post-tax. At least in the case of Aprilia, I learned that their NA shipments all go to TX and then shipped out from there at dealer cost. It's shitty that they transfer that cost out to customers but Aprilia burns them and no one is willing to eat it, so we end up with it. For a fast-moving brand, multiple dealerships and a new model like the Ninja 500, don't see why the dealer wouldn't budge but you're likely going to see variations of the same quote elsewhere unfortunately +/- a few hundred bucks. But it seems like the standard now is to charge all those crappy fees. Best suggestion would be to wait it out or buy a used 400.
Why not just get a 400? Even a new one would be significantly cheaper, because it's not a brand new bike like the 500 is. Plus, it's only 2 more HP and 2 more ft lbs of torque.
Man they really milked that fucking cow.
For your first bike I’d look to go used on something with under 10k miles
So many used bike out there right now
Name and shame, and also don't buy that shit.
I’m in Oregon so take it with grain of salt but bought my bought brand new in February with the dealer fee being only ~$200. Everyone out there is trying to screw you but there should be a couple playing the game fair. Don’t lose hope!
It’s nice of them to specifically outline how they’re gonna tack on another ~20% of the MSRP because they feel like it lmao. Anyways, this dealer can fuck right off with their 1000 dollar markup on a 5500 dollar bike. Take your money elsewhere, don’t reward this nonsense.
Nope.
Anyone who buys Japanese new is a tool. IMO My Triumph was MSRP plus TTL. Only place I found in Wisconsin to sell new at MSRP has been BMW and Triumph dealers.
Damn, that really sucks. I just bought my 24' N1K, and was fairly lucky. Dealer got me at MSRP ($13,699), plus the freight fees. My OTD was like $14,147 + CO sales tax I'd find a new dealer. I know my dealer had a Ninja 500 40th anniversary edition when I was there last week for the same deal I got my N1K for (MSRP + freight + Sales Tax). Small dealership, but they were awesome to work with Edit: If you don't mind the jaunt to CO, go ahead and DM me and I can send you my dealer's info
Buy a used bike.
That’s what a 650 went for OTD 1 1/2 years ago in Tx. Inflation doesn’t f around.
Got my ninja 650 23' for roughly 9000 last may with a 500 discount. The markup is beyond crazyyy
Freight, DMV, and tax are the only “not bullshit” costs. Everything else is a bunch of “dafuq”?
That's ridiculous for a ninja 500. But the last time I brought a new bike was 2018. I let them have their doc fee but was unwilling to pay anything more than their advertised price (+doc) and tax title and licensing fees, anything more and I walk. Remember who ever wants the deal the least will usually end up better in the end. And there's plenty of places to go that won't charge you all the markups.
It is nuts but thats how dealerships are and that's what they do.
Yeah they can shove that adm fee somewhere lol, f that. You can buy one from another state and have it shipped to you for less.
Dude get a used 400. It's only 50cc difference.
I don't know what it's like in other countries but it looks like OP is in Canads. Here all dealers charge a Doc fee, plus Freight/PDI and it generally adds up to $1500 on top of MSRP. I haven't heard of dealer fees being waived in negotiations unless it's on really old stock so either you pay it or you don't buy new. The dealer position seems to be, either you pay it or someone else will.
The 400 3 years ago in Canada was $3400 CAD sticker price NEW. Who the hell was selling one for 6k? That thing must have been pimped out. Edit: 6 years ago sorry time fucked me again
Yeah I would walk right out the door and leave the paperwork with them
What state are you in?
WTF is a tire fee?
Yeh 1k and they won’t even tell you what it’s for geez yeh thank god you walked out if your paying cash there are plenty of other dealers that will work with you. My Honda dealership actually knocked 700 dollars off when I told them I was gonna pay cash and buy today of course it was the end of the month and guy needed 2 more sales to meet quota lol
Why is there a tire fee? I know some places (mechanics shops) will charge that for recycling tires, but... Your not doing that...
Look at you wheel and deal they waived the Access . What ever that happens to be .
If you are in the US this is normal, they assemble the bike in the shop, put oil in it gas it up, that junk is the charge. I didn't like it either. It's crap. But now you know why.
in Mexico .. to that price... they add 3000 USD markup just because.. and.. the manufacturer cheaps out in parts to latam market .(im lookin at you husqvarna..)
I’m always amazed they itemise how much they are inflating the price - then people buy it anyway. I’m a second hand bike pundit for this reason.
I know you guys aren't going to believe me, but I am speaking the truth. I bought a 2017 Ninja 1000 new at a dealership that didn't charge fees. They sold it $700 below MSRP and there was a $750 rebate at the time that pushed it further. I was out the door for I think around $11,000 and that was just due to sales tax. Bought a 2nd bike from there in 2018 and there were still no fees (no rebate on that one). If I knew for certain they were still doing business that way, I'd obviously be naming dropping. If you're in northern Colorado, you probably already know who I'm referring to. Good folks there.
I wish I would have done what you did and ask Reddit if my deal was okay. The way they explained it made perfect sense. They did me dirty with the price and I just went along. Never again. Find a different dealer.
FUCK THAT
you did the right thing. that is a lot of BS added to the already agreed upon MSRP. i am sure Kawasaki would not be happy with the dealer adding these..
Welcome to the bike buying experience in California. This behavior unfortunately is unavoidable. It was much worse at the height of Covid, markups were 2-3k even on used bikes. To those saying "walk away", where are you walking to? All dealers especially owned by Del Amo will give you the same BS.