Good to know. We're considering moving some endpoints over but we don't want to complicate things if it won't be worth it. If they haven't made management more *involved*, then that aspect becomes a non concern for us
We run W11 wherever possible. Looking at the Intune stats, it's faster, more stable and easier for people to use.
You'll have to give them some notice but the differences between w10 and 11 are so small from a UX perspective.
Honestly, you should have already been moving cliënts over to 11. And new clients should just be 11. You find find out very quick that there are going to be special cases with software/hardware maybe even VMs that do not support Windows 11. We don't even know the requirements of 12.
Windows hasn't announced W12 yet. The only thing coming so far is 24H2 later this year. So maybe in 2025 we'll get it, but you are giving yourself such a small timeframe that you will pass the deadline given any kind of inconvenience, and then you can't get the latest security patches on those machine because they don't support W11 for reason xyz.
Interesting that W11 is faster on the same hardware. I wonder if it’s an optimization thing or what. That’s certainly something to consider
We don’t have any stability or ease of use issues but speed is *always* something we can benefit from
I also very much agree with that last paragraph. That’s what led us to discussing things, actually. While there’s a good chance 12 will be Official before EOL, it’s still just a *chance*. While we still have *personal* biases against 11, we’re thinking that it might just be the way to go given that concern alone
Yea it's pretty neat, but even if the W12 preview comes out Q1 of 2025, which it probably won't because then we would have heard of it like 24H2, you'd still have to wait another ~6 months for the official release and then another few months for software that might not support it on release.
On top of that the first few months of w11 were quite ruff on release, is that what you want to force clients to because they now need to move because of security?
Another example, one of your clients has a engineering department with very expensive machines and solidworks licences, they aren't out of the blue gonna have the budget to buy w11/12 capable machines or the money to upgrade there licences if need be.
Migration is pretty easy, just communicate about what changes for your clients but also show the advantages of W11, if they care about it.
We did it by first just moving ourselves/internal IT for at least a month or two in advance, get to know the little changes, do a quick TPM check on all the clients via Intune to see if they all have 2.0 and tell the clients which PC's need to be replaced/migrated/moved so they can put it on their budget for the next year.
Create a pilot group with at least one person from every departement (given that there's not a huge red flag software wise on those machines).
Let them use it for another month (you are immediately training a key user that can help others), and if that all goes great you just force the w11 update on the next Patch Tuesday. (Tell them ofcourse it will be a longer update then normal).
There are plenty of versions of w10 with extended support into 2026,2027, 2029
https://endoflife.date/windows
LTS branches, all of which pair nicely with the Citrix long term support branches.
that said, only place I see those versions is ATMs, manufacturing plants, and some old Citrix environments using Citrix’s long term branches as well.
The fact that you put upgraded in double quotes indicates you are not interested in civil discussion about this topic and you came to ragebait.
Windows 11 is excellent. We have thousands of endpoints running it and haven't sold a new machine not running Windows 11 since it came out. Not only that, we even use \*gasp\* Windows Autopatch. It works great.
I'm sure if your customers understood that you were holding back legitimate modern improvements to their operating system that they could have for free because you think you're clever and going to "wait for Windows 12" that they would be absolutely thrilled. My favorite part is where you think Windows 11 is the problem, when it is safe to say most IT professionals would feel that Windows 11 is as stable as Windows 10, if not more so - so your play is to skip a mature and functional version to be forced to a new version (that has not even had an official release date announced yet, by the way) with minimal time before Windows 10 goes EOL because you think that will be a more stable situation for your clients.
I bet you think Microsoft is trying to steal your clients and that NCE is a scam, too, right?
man you took that way too seriously lmao
I put it in double quotes as a joke. I'm not a fan of 11 and enjoy poking fun at it. Still a genuine question.
>I'm sure if your customers understood that you were holding back legitimate modern improvements
yeah mrs. barbara in room 12 geometry cares a whole lot about "modern improvements" to her operating system on the computer she basically only uses Word and an internet browser on
They have the option. They just opt to stay with our main channel since it makes no difference to them as a user.
>I bet you think Microsoft is trying to steal your clients and that NCE is a scam, too, right?
No, not really. But nice try, lol
What do you think happens in 12? A vulnerability gets discovered, and then said vulnerability gets a patch.
Neither OS is immune to vulnerabilities and they both get patched at similar rates.
One could even argue that with the constant development of W11, you're at risk of new vulnerabilities being *introduced* rather than simply discovered. Two sides to the same coin. W10 is still stable and still receives patches.
So please explain how w10 is “worse” than w11 when it comes to cybersecurity?
What new features in w11 help?
Also:
https://endoflife.date/windows
I know of banks running 1809 LTS for their ATMS (not even really bank decision but thrbATM vendors) Supported with security patches until 2029!!
We switch to Win11 when the devices get replaced. User change resistance is way too big a hurdle to inplace upgrade, and it is no wonder - Win11 makes day to day tasks more complicated. Just look at the right-click menu on files.. let’s hide some commands in ”more settings”, offer some obscure little icons users do not notice instead?
We put a bunch of registry tweaks to "re-10" windows 11, including bringing back the old right click menu, left justifying the taskbar etc in our imaging task sequences we use on new machines. We have very few complaints when machines are replaced with win11
This is the way. If you move the taskbar to the left and put the old right click context menu back, most users would not even notice the difference. It’s just Windows 10 Service Pack 1 at this point.
Lol why - there's nothing w10 can do that w11 can't. 99% of users can't even tell the difference (hint the menu and icons are centered in w11 and left aligned in w10). That's it - your making it hard on yourself and users especially since they already confirmed there is no 12 on the horizon - the next big release will still be under the w11 umbrella.
We're deploying 11 internally and for our customers.
Coincidentally, I've finally moved to 11 on my home desktop having grown used to it in work. That said, I've hacked the right click menu to take away the training wheels and I've installed the Classic Shell successor.
In fairness, it does appear perceptibly quicker since installing 11.
I deployed 8 Win 11 PCs on Thursday, to replace old Win 7/8 PCs. The client uses an extremely software for employees to clock in/out. The software requires you to install some components that Microsoft doesn't support anymore and has actually removed them from their site, but I found a workaround for the previous Win10 installs. That workaround doesn't work on 11, so the software error'd out when an employee tried to clock out.
Luckily, the client is switching to a new system on April 1st, which prompted the update, so they'll just use the old machines for another 2 weeks.
Only 6th and 7th gen remnants are holding up. Above 80% migrated. Some 10th gen HP crapbooks have weird screen flicker at the bottom of the screen on W11, so I just pulled them to storage for checking.
We use W11 whenever possible, but we also don’t fight the few end users that want to stick to W10 for as long as possible. We explain that once EOL comes around it’s not an option, they need to move to W11 or W12 if it’s out. I’ve been on 11 for about 2 years now and besides a few differences it’s not really different from 10 for your average end user.
I force upgraded my home PC soon after 11 came out. I say force because I am still running a first gen Ryzen 1700x CPU at home which is not officially supported for in place upgrades.
I had crashes, performance trouble and all sorts of little issues here and there. Within a year pretty much all the original issues were fixed and now it's FAR more stable than on release, and I would argue that with most hardware configurations it seems more stable than 10 and the gap is widening.
That's just my experience in the residential/small business area here. I don't have any clients with more than 50-100 users.
You do need to invest in removing some of the bloatware, ads, etc but you need to do that on any Windows pc. You should be able to automate to the same level as your Win10 deployments with minimal energy.
I had everyone wait at least a year before upgrading to Win 11. There were massive bugs in Windows 11 such as losing the taskbar, losing the search option. It has gotten better but it's no Win 7. I WOULD NOT jump to a new Win 12 because, if history tells us anything, it'll be buggy as hell.
Half my customer base are dental offices, only one has switched to windows 11, one has major issues with hardware/software capability issues when machines are upgraded, and most barely wanted a win10 upgrade when I forced them onto it 5 years ago so no, not pushing win11 until EoL. For most of our customers we're still upgrading the win11 machines to win10 to match their environment - and no it's not a downgrade when the win11 UI/UX is just completely shit.
Other than cosmetic changes, Win 11 is the same. I think I have found 1 program out of 100s that doesn't like 10.
11 is a safe move at this point. This was definitely not a Vista version...
We don't go out of our way to stop it. If someone orders a new workstation with Windows 11, we will allow it. If a customer's machine somehow gets a Windows 11 update pushed to it, we are not going to lose any sleep over it. Updates are controlled for customers that allow the update.
That EOL date will creep up on you quickly and Microsoft is just one keystroke away from saying "Windows 10 is not longer supported for X Microsoft product/service".
Whatever you don't like about in Windows 11 you most likely won't like in Windows 12 either. There was an entire group of people that hated Windows 10 and were diehard Windows 7 users, people scared of change. I am predicting the same thing here with Windows 11. People are going to hold on to Windows 10 as long as they can because of silly reasons like "I don't like the start bar in the middle!". The same group of people also want to host Exchange on-prem instead of switching to M365. In both cases, many cannot provide an actual business/technical reason not to switch. People with this mindset in any type of position to make any technical decisions scare me.
“It’s bEcAuSe mIcRoShIt fUcKeD mY mOm aNd kIcKeD mY dOg!!!!”
“BiLlY gAtEs pErSonAlLy dId tHiS tO sTeAl mY cUsToMeRs!!!”
“NCE iS a ScAm!!!”
These are the same people who host all their clients in the same 365 environment or all in one AD environment and see nothing wrong with it.
I am so sick of declining Microsoft's endless list of upgrades masquerading as typical patches that will force the win10 to win11 upgrade. I tell clients.. It's time.
Managing its start menu is extremely convoluted.
Did you all miss that thread or was it a sysadmin one?
Sure sure, Intune and all that jazz, but it’s still not as flexible as W10 was.
That said I’m moving everyone to w11 multi-session so meh!
W11 is fine for 95% of the world
Management wise, pretty smooth sailing for y'all?
It’s no different than 10
Good to know. We're considering moving some endpoints over but we don't want to complicate things if it won't be worth it. If they haven't made management more *involved*, then that aspect becomes a non concern for us
Just move the start to the left + enable explorer compact mode, and big guys should be fine.
We run W11 wherever possible. Looking at the Intune stats, it's faster, more stable and easier for people to use. You'll have to give them some notice but the differences between w10 and 11 are so small from a UX perspective. Honestly, you should have already been moving cliënts over to 11. And new clients should just be 11. You find find out very quick that there are going to be special cases with software/hardware maybe even VMs that do not support Windows 11. We don't even know the requirements of 12. Windows hasn't announced W12 yet. The only thing coming so far is 24H2 later this year. So maybe in 2025 we'll get it, but you are giving yourself such a small timeframe that you will pass the deadline given any kind of inconvenience, and then you can't get the latest security patches on those machine because they don't support W11 for reason xyz.
Interesting that W11 is faster on the same hardware. I wonder if it’s an optimization thing or what. That’s certainly something to consider We don’t have any stability or ease of use issues but speed is *always* something we can benefit from I also very much agree with that last paragraph. That’s what led us to discussing things, actually. While there’s a good chance 12 will be Official before EOL, it’s still just a *chance*. While we still have *personal* biases against 11, we’re thinking that it might just be the way to go given that concern alone
Yea it's pretty neat, but even if the W12 preview comes out Q1 of 2025, which it probably won't because then we would have heard of it like 24H2, you'd still have to wait another ~6 months for the official release and then another few months for software that might not support it on release. On top of that the first few months of w11 were quite ruff on release, is that what you want to force clients to because they now need to move because of security? Another example, one of your clients has a engineering department with very expensive machines and solidworks licences, they aren't out of the blue gonna have the budget to buy w11/12 capable machines or the money to upgrade there licences if need be. Migration is pretty easy, just communicate about what changes for your clients but also show the advantages of W11, if they care about it. We did it by first just moving ourselves/internal IT for at least a month or two in advance, get to know the little changes, do a quick TPM check on all the clients via Intune to see if they all have 2.0 and tell the clients which PC's need to be replaced/migrated/moved so they can put it on their budget for the next year. Create a pilot group with at least one person from every departement (given that there's not a huge red flag software wise on those machines). Let them use it for another month (you are immediately training a key user that can help others), and if that all goes great you just force the w11 update on the next Patch Tuesday. (Tell them ofcourse it will be a longer update then normal).
There are plenty of versions of w10 with extended support into 2026,2027, 2029 https://endoflife.date/windows LTS branches, all of which pair nicely with the Citrix long term support branches. that said, only place I see those versions is ATMs, manufacturing plants, and some old Citrix environments using Citrix’s long term branches as well.
Windows 11 on everything that can run it from the first release.
The fact that you put upgraded in double quotes indicates you are not interested in civil discussion about this topic and you came to ragebait. Windows 11 is excellent. We have thousands of endpoints running it and haven't sold a new machine not running Windows 11 since it came out. Not only that, we even use \*gasp\* Windows Autopatch. It works great. I'm sure if your customers understood that you were holding back legitimate modern improvements to their operating system that they could have for free because you think you're clever and going to "wait for Windows 12" that they would be absolutely thrilled. My favorite part is where you think Windows 11 is the problem, when it is safe to say most IT professionals would feel that Windows 11 is as stable as Windows 10, if not more so - so your play is to skip a mature and functional version to be forced to a new version (that has not even had an official release date announced yet, by the way) with minimal time before Windows 10 goes EOL because you think that will be a more stable situation for your clients. I bet you think Microsoft is trying to steal your clients and that NCE is a scam, too, right?
man you took that way too seriously lmao I put it in double quotes as a joke. I'm not a fan of 11 and enjoy poking fun at it. Still a genuine question. >I'm sure if your customers understood that you were holding back legitimate modern improvements yeah mrs. barbara in room 12 geometry cares a whole lot about "modern improvements" to her operating system on the computer she basically only uses Word and an internet browser on They have the option. They just opt to stay with our main channel since it makes no difference to them as a user. >I bet you think Microsoft is trying to steal your clients and that NCE is a scam, too, right? No, not really. But nice try, lol
So your clients don’t care about cybersecurity huh?
Windows 10 still receives regular security updates. It just doesn't receive feature updates. Doesn't stop until EOL in October 2025.
Yes because security hotfixes are the only aspect of cybersecurity…..
What do you think happens in 12? A vulnerability gets discovered, and then said vulnerability gets a patch. Neither OS is immune to vulnerabilities and they both get patched at similar rates. One could even argue that with the constant development of W11, you're at risk of new vulnerabilities being *introduced* rather than simply discovered. Two sides to the same coin. W10 is still stable and still receives patches.
So please explain how w10 is “worse” than w11 when it comes to cybersecurity? What new features in w11 help? Also: https://endoflife.date/windows I know of banks running 1809 LTS for their ATMS (not even really bank decision but thrbATM vendors) Supported with security patches until 2029!!
but it’s new and shiny! it must be super extra secure! man, some people here got real set off by the idea someone might not fawn over w11 like they do
I have everything upgraded to win11 I can without end users bitching. When win10 support drops, the old end users won’t have a choice.
It has been no different than Windows 10. Still can do all the same stuff
We switch to Win11 when the devices get replaced. User change resistance is way too big a hurdle to inplace upgrade, and it is no wonder - Win11 makes day to day tasks more complicated. Just look at the right-click menu on files.. let’s hide some commands in ”more settings”, offer some obscure little icons users do not notice instead?
That's a GPO away
We put a bunch of registry tweaks to "re-10" windows 11, including bringing back the old right click menu, left justifying the taskbar etc in our imaging task sequences we use on new machines. We have very few complaints when machines are replaced with win11
This is the way. If you move the taskbar to the left and put the old right click context menu back, most users would not even notice the difference. It’s just Windows 10 Service Pack 1 at this point.
Have you ever heard of ”good default settings”.
Lol why - there's nothing w10 can do that w11 can't. 99% of users can't even tell the difference (hint the menu and icons are centered in w11 and left aligned in w10). That's it - your making it hard on yourself and users especially since they already confirmed there is no 12 on the horizon - the next big release will still be under the w11 umbrella.
We're deploying 11 internally and for our customers. Coincidentally, I've finally moved to 11 on my home desktop having grown used to it in work. That said, I've hacked the right click menu to take away the training wheels and I've installed the Classic Shell successor. In fairness, it does appear perceptibly quicker since installing 11.
I deployed 8 Win 11 PCs on Thursday, to replace old Win 7/8 PCs. The client uses an extremely software for employees to clock in/out. The software requires you to install some components that Microsoft doesn't support anymore and has actually removed them from their site, but I found a workaround for the previous Win10 installs. That workaround doesn't work on 11, so the software error'd out when an employee tried to clock out. Luckily, the client is switching to a new system on April 1st, which prompted the update, so they'll just use the old machines for another 2 weeks.
Only 6th and 7th gen remnants are holding up. Above 80% migrated. Some 10th gen HP crapbooks have weird screen flicker at the bottom of the screen on W11, so I just pulled them to storage for checking.
We have upgraded all machines to Windows 11. Did that quite some time ago.
We use W11 whenever possible, but we also don’t fight the few end users that want to stick to W10 for as long as possible. We explain that once EOL comes around it’s not an option, they need to move to W11 or W12 if it’s out. I’ve been on 11 for about 2 years now and besides a few differences it’s not really different from 10 for your average end user.
I force upgraded my home PC soon after 11 came out. I say force because I am still running a first gen Ryzen 1700x CPU at home which is not officially supported for in place upgrades. I had crashes, performance trouble and all sorts of little issues here and there. Within a year pretty much all the original issues were fixed and now it's FAR more stable than on release, and I would argue that with most hardware configurations it seems more stable than 10 and the gap is widening. That's just my experience in the residential/small business area here. I don't have any clients with more than 50-100 users.
You do need to invest in removing some of the bloatware, ads, etc but you need to do that on any Windows pc. You should be able to automate to the same level as your Win10 deployments with minimal energy.
I had everyone wait at least a year before upgrading to Win 11. There were massive bugs in Windows 11 such as losing the taskbar, losing the search option. It has gotten better but it's no Win 7. I WOULD NOT jump to a new Win 12 because, if history tells us anything, it'll be buggy as hell.
Once you switch the task bar and start menu back to where it belongs, I don’t think anyone would even realize it’s not windows 10.
I'm just excited for live patching when it comes. Patching w/o rebooting will make me feel all-powerful
11 works great. Change happens. If the machine supports it, it is upgraded.
Waiting on Win 11 LTSC to be released.
We were going to wait but decided the second half of the year wasn’t working with our IT calendar.
The only Version that is useable…
Half my customer base are dental offices, only one has switched to windows 11, one has major issues with hardware/software capability issues when machines are upgraded, and most barely wanted a win10 upgrade when I forced them onto it 5 years ago so no, not pushing win11 until EoL. For most of our customers we're still upgrading the win11 machines to win10 to match their environment - and no it's not a downgrade when the win11 UI/UX is just completely shit.
Other than cosmetic changes, Win 11 is the same. I think I have found 1 program out of 100s that doesn't like 10. 11 is a safe move at this point. This was definitely not a Vista version...
We don't go out of our way to stop it. If someone orders a new workstation with Windows 11, we will allow it. If a customer's machine somehow gets a Windows 11 update pushed to it, we are not going to lose any sleep over it. Updates are controlled for customers that allow the update. That EOL date will creep up on you quickly and Microsoft is just one keystroke away from saying "Windows 10 is not longer supported for X Microsoft product/service". Whatever you don't like about in Windows 11 you most likely won't like in Windows 12 either. There was an entire group of people that hated Windows 10 and were diehard Windows 7 users, people scared of change. I am predicting the same thing here with Windows 11. People are going to hold on to Windows 10 as long as they can because of silly reasons like "I don't like the start bar in the middle!". The same group of people also want to host Exchange on-prem instead of switching to M365. In both cases, many cannot provide an actual business/technical reason not to switch. People with this mindset in any type of position to make any technical decisions scare me.
“It’s bEcAuSe mIcRoShIt fUcKeD mY mOm aNd kIcKeD mY dOg!!!!” “BiLlY gAtEs pErSonAlLy dId tHiS tO sTeAl mY cUsToMeRs!!!” “NCE iS a ScAm!!!” These are the same people who host all their clients in the same 365 environment or all in one AD environment and see nothing wrong with it.
I am so sick of declining Microsoft's endless list of upgrades masquerading as typical patches that will force the win10 to win11 upgrade. I tell clients.. It's time.
Managing its start menu is extremely convoluted. Did you all miss that thread or was it a sysadmin one? Sure sure, Intune and all that jazz, but it’s still not as flexible as W10 was. That said I’m moving everyone to w11 multi-session so meh!
dont plan on upgrading old systems will 10 is eol