ELSP rate are 21% but paid part in crypto and part in cash. Small sum up to 200k jpy from the claim value are also paid part in crypto and part in cash, ratio for all are 71% crypto and 29% cash and claim btc/bch are evaluated to JPY based on CR 2018 rates what goes BTC>JPY and vice versa by that same rate.
Claims valued up to 200k jpy are fully paid with small sum (crypto/cash split by 71/29 crypto cash ratio) and can't have proportional ELSP/FP payment. Claims valued above 200k jpy get in full small sum 200k jpy (paid by crypto/cash split by 71/29 ratio or recalculated 0.167btc/bch and 58k jpy) + proportional ELSP 21% paid by crypto/cash ratio 71/29 or 14,91% btc/bch + 6.09% cash (=21) on post small sum claim balance (reduced by small sum 200k jpy.)
Due to small sum payment smaller claims looks to get higher btc percentage, but it only looks that way because higher amount claims also get small sum, but on higher amount claims what get also proportional ELSP payment that btc percentage return (small sum 200k jpy= 0.167 btc/bch and 58k jpy + ELSP prorata 14,91% btc/bch + 6.09% cash paid on post small sum claim balance) only looks smaller and closer to 16% (10 btc claims) or even 15% (100+ btc claims). (Small sum 200k jpy recalculated by crypto/cash ratio are in full 0.167 btc/bch and 58k jpy).
Along with precise, detailed info you also got the following in answer...
"Due to small sum payment smaller claims looks to get higher btc percentage, but it only looks that way..."..
??
yep, a little 1 BTC claim (what I have) looks like a *much* higher percentage at this point, but I guess it's just because some of the BTC returned is related to the base payment amount.
So, the *apparent* percentage decreases as the claim size increases until the base payment is dwarfed and the amount returned approaches the *real* BTC percentage.
The wizsec is calculator gives a good ballpark estimate of the amout you’ll receive, but it has a small mistake regarding how the base 200 000 JPY amount is repaid.
They assumed it would be payed cash only, meaning that people whose claim was smaller than 200kJPY would only recieve fiat.
But, actually, it is split between fiat and crypto payment in the same ratio as crypto claims that exceeded that base amount.
The net effect is: if your claim was crypto-only, you’ll receive more crypto but less cash, than what wizsec says. By the current value of Bitcoins, this is a good change.
JPY rate is irrelevant at this point for ELSP and Intermediate as it goes btc to jpy and then back jpy to btc by using that same rate. Its book value for both crypto asset and crypto liability (claims) as long mtgox has crypto asset. It was important only if mtgox had to sell crypto asset what would be then fiat rate payment for btc. Also, since mtgox has both fiat and crypto asset, JPY rate for all non-monetary (crypto) and foreign currency are made at day before CR commenced 2018 and created crypto/cash repayment ratio and to properly calculate liability (claims) and repayment.
For ELSP and 1st Intermediate for FP things are certain, ELSP and IP rate and crypto/cash ratio are detirmined, for Final Payment and other future Intermediate payments are unknown. If for some reason in future Mtgox have to sell all crypto asset, repayment will be cash only based on that 2018 JPY rate which is 846,800 JPY for BTC+BCH. If mtgox sell part of crypto asset crypto/cash ratio will change ie crypto portion will be lower and cash portion higher. All of that can change repayment rate too, esp if Coinlab wins any significant amount.
Don't look at market btc exchange price what doesn't hsve effect on repayment calculation.
Example 1 btc/bch claim, without including small sum payment not to confuse you:
Btc/bch payment amount:
1 btc/bch x 846,800 jpy (btc+bch rate) x 0.21 (ELSP rate) x 0.71 (crypto ratio) ÷ 846,800 (btc+bch rate)= btc/bch amount.
Cash payment portion amount for btc/bch:
1 btc/bch x 846,800 x 0.21 (ELSP rate) x 0.29 (cash ratio)= cash portion payment amount
I difn't included small sum payment not to confuse you, as you see, btc/bch 2018 rate goes first btc>JPY then back JPY>btc by use of that same rate, so its actually at this time irrelevant, if higher or lower it wouldn't change btc/bch payment amount. However in future, for creditors who opted final payment, if mtgox sell crypto it will change crypto/cash ratio or if all crypto are sold claims would be paid in cash only by use of that 2018 jpy rate or in other words, claim with 1 btc/bch would get max 846,800 JPY reduced for Intermediate what they already got by Oct/24 deadline which is ELSP deadline as well.
Market btc price doesn't effect how payment calculation works and how much (amount) btc creditors receive, it effect only how much those btc payout would be worth in fiat to us when we recive btc payout.
Do you know if the value in BTC of what we receive is at the BTC value in the days near the payout date?
For example, I received the first payment yesterday, the cash/yen part.
But I am about to receive the remaining early lump sum which represents 2.53 BTC (my claim is for more than 16 BTC).
I am eager to know at what value they will sell the 2.53 BTC they owe me (or when), because I asked for a cash on not BTC payment. Is it the BTC value just before the payout?
Because the BTC value is fluctuation a lot and I would be happy to receive it at the present value! (after waiting for 10 years, as all of us)...
In my MtGox account, it is noted that the BTC payment is in process but not complete (the first cash part is completed). So, following what you say, they must sell the BTC at the moment they will send me the cash payout (hopefully soon), so it will be at the actual BTC rate. This is good news. Thank you for having take time to answer to me.
For those who had btc/bch claims and elected ELSP and all cash, is it your understanding that their btc/bch will be sold at some future date when distribution is to take place as opposed to the approximate date when the election for all cash was made?
Well, as I am aware trustee didn't sold those btc for cash only creditors yet, I believe he must do it prior distribution and till Oct/24 payment deadline.
Just to be clear - the "Amount to be repaid" in the table is the amount you will receive right? Not 21% of this amount?
Anyone know when they will make the BTC and BCH transfer to Kraken? I'm hoping within a month.
It's not the same percentage for everybody. If your claim was quite small, the percentage will look higher. I was also thinking we were getting about 20% but in reality it's a little over 14% for me. Better than a poke in the eye, I guess.
In general, about 6 of that 21% of expected bitcoin repaid is the cash allotment. Some of your bitcoin balance is repaid as cash, and the cash per coin is repaid at a 2018 valuation. Not ideal, but its part of a compromise made to benefit your claim on a larger scale. The alternative was about $500 per coin if traditional bankruptcy wasn't stayed.
Also, if a claim doesn't have any fiat claims (a cash balance), the 200k yen value of the small sums payment can be filled by a ratio of of the relative value of BTC/BCH. This is actually nice because it is like you're getting a little bit of flat 2018 value bitcoin before it gets proportionally divided up. Anyway it will also swing the percent BTC you see as well if you have a claim of only bitcoin.
And then there's also the answer as it pertains to relative claim size in general. People often confuse the BTC repayment with overall claim repayment. A sufficiently small claim for example, even if just composed of a small amount of bitcoin, will be fully represented by small sums payment and its possible to see a percent repayment closer to 100% if the claim's value is near 200k yen.
It's done on a curve. If your claim is a little over 2 bitcoins you will get 21% back. Shocked me to find out that my bitcoin payout is only around 15% of the original number of bitcoins that I had.
https://preview.redd.it/ghyvdaxy0gvc1.png?width=1169&format=png&auto=webp&s=bb8db062ed87811d1548d4190b1cb0c0c58779b4
ELSP rate are 21% but paid part in crypto and part in cash. Small sum up to 200k jpy from the claim value are also paid part in crypto and part in cash, ratio for all are 71% crypto and 29% cash and claim btc/bch are evaluated to JPY based on CR 2018 rates what goes BTC>JPY and vice versa by that same rate. Claims valued up to 200k jpy are fully paid with small sum (crypto/cash split by 71/29 crypto cash ratio) and can't have proportional ELSP/FP payment. Claims valued above 200k jpy get in full small sum 200k jpy (paid by crypto/cash split by 71/29 ratio or recalculated 0.167btc/bch and 58k jpy) + proportional ELSP 21% paid by crypto/cash ratio 71/29 or 14,91% btc/bch + 6.09% cash (=21) on post small sum claim balance (reduced by small sum 200k jpy.) Due to small sum payment smaller claims looks to get higher btc percentage, but it only looks that way because higher amount claims also get small sum, but on higher amount claims what get also proportional ELSP payment that btc percentage return (small sum 200k jpy= 0.167 btc/bch and 58k jpy + ELSP prorata 14,91% btc/bch + 6.09% cash paid on post small sum claim balance) only looks smaller and closer to 16% (10 btc claims) or even 15% (100+ btc claims). (Small sum 200k jpy recalculated by crypto/cash ratio are in full 0.167 btc/bch and 58k jpy).
That's cleared that up then!
?
Just being sarcastic!
Along with precise, detailed info you also got the following in answer... "Due to small sum payment smaller claims looks to get higher btc percentage, but it only looks that way...".. ??
yep, a little 1 BTC claim (what I have) looks like a *much* higher percentage at this point, but I guess it's just because some of the BTC returned is related to the base payment amount. So, the *apparent* percentage decreases as the claim size increases until the base payment is dwarfed and the amount returned approaches the *real* BTC percentage.
Huh, I thought we were going to get something like 0.1% of our bitcoin back.
no, it's somewhere between ~14% and ~28% depending how many BTC you had.
I am to receive 37% of a 0.6 BTC claim, not counting the 500€ in JPY I have already received. This is confirmed by the Wizsec calculator.
The wizsec is calculator gives a good ballpark estimate of the amout you’ll receive, but it has a small mistake regarding how the base 200 000 JPY amount is repaid. They assumed it would be payed cash only, meaning that people whose claim was smaller than 200kJPY would only recieve fiat. But, actually, it is split between fiat and crypto payment in the same ratio as crypto claims that exceeded that base amount. The net effect is: if your claim was crypto-only, you’ll receive more crypto but less cash, than what wizsec says. By the current value of Bitcoins, this is a good change.
ok, my 28% was based on a 1BTC claim, it follows that it would be even higher below 1BTC.
wait so our repayment for the btc/bch portion is based on the 2018 rate?
JPY rate is irrelevant at this point for ELSP and Intermediate as it goes btc to jpy and then back jpy to btc by using that same rate. Its book value for both crypto asset and crypto liability (claims) as long mtgox has crypto asset. It was important only if mtgox had to sell crypto asset what would be then fiat rate payment for btc. Also, since mtgox has both fiat and crypto asset, JPY rate for all non-monetary (crypto) and foreign currency are made at day before CR commenced 2018 and created crypto/cash repayment ratio and to properly calculate liability (claims) and repayment. For ELSP and 1st Intermediate for FP things are certain, ELSP and IP rate and crypto/cash ratio are detirmined, for Final Payment and other future Intermediate payments are unknown. If for some reason in future Mtgox have to sell all crypto asset, repayment will be cash only based on that 2018 JPY rate which is 846,800 JPY for BTC+BCH. If mtgox sell part of crypto asset crypto/cash ratio will change ie crypto portion will be lower and cash portion higher. All of that can change repayment rate too, esp if Coinlab wins any significant amount.
ok so for 1 btc the wizsec calculator showing ~$19k is closer to correct than if it was the 2018 btc value which would only be like ~$5k right?
Don't look at market btc exchange price what doesn't hsve effect on repayment calculation. Example 1 btc/bch claim, without including small sum payment not to confuse you: Btc/bch payment amount: 1 btc/bch x 846,800 jpy (btc+bch rate) x 0.21 (ELSP rate) x 0.71 (crypto ratio) ÷ 846,800 (btc+bch rate)= btc/bch amount. Cash payment portion amount for btc/bch: 1 btc/bch x 846,800 x 0.21 (ELSP rate) x 0.29 (cash ratio)= cash portion payment amount I difn't included small sum payment not to confuse you, as you see, btc/bch 2018 rate goes first btc>JPY then back JPY>btc by use of that same rate, so its actually at this time irrelevant, if higher or lower it wouldn't change btc/bch payment amount. However in future, for creditors who opted final payment, if mtgox sell crypto it will change crypto/cash ratio or if all crypto are sold claims would be paid in cash only by use of that 2018 jpy rate or in other words, claim with 1 btc/bch would get max 846,800 JPY reduced for Intermediate what they already got by Oct/24 deadline which is ELSP deadline as well.
I think i'm more confused now. the market btc exchange price doesn't affect how much we'll get back?
Market btc price doesn't effect how payment calculation works and how much (amount) btc creditors receive, it effect only how much those btc payout would be worth in fiat to us when we recive btc payout.
ah I see what you're saying, but I don't really care what the numbers on the payment say. I only really care about what hits my bank account.
Do you know if the value in BTC of what we receive is at the BTC value in the days near the payout date? For example, I received the first payment yesterday, the cash/yen part. But I am about to receive the remaining early lump sum which represents 2.53 BTC (my claim is for more than 16 BTC). I am eager to know at what value they will sell the 2.53 BTC they owe me (or when), because I asked for a cash on not BTC payment. Is it the BTC value just before the payout? Because the BTC value is fluctuation a lot and I would be happy to receive it at the present value! (after waiting for 10 years, as all of us)...
Trustee didn't sold btc yet for btc creditors who opted to be paid in cash. It will be soon and before payment Oct/24 deadline.
In my MtGox account, it is noted that the BTC payment is in process but not complete (the first cash part is completed). So, following what you say, they must sell the BTC at the moment they will send me the cash payout (hopefully soon), so it will be at the actual BTC rate. This is good news. Thank you for having take time to answer to me.
For those who had btc/bch claims and elected ELSP and all cash, is it your understanding that their btc/bch will be sold at some future date when distribution is to take place as opposed to the approximate date when the election for all cash was made?
Well, as I am aware trustee didn't sold those btc for cash only creditors yet, I believe he must do it prior distribution and till Oct/24 payment deadline.
Just to be clear - the "Amount to be repaid" in the table is the amount you will receive right? Not 21% of this amount? Anyone know when they will make the BTC and BCH transfer to Kraken? I'm hoping within a month.
Yes, amounts in the repayment table are amounts you receive. Btc/bch repayment should be made by Oct/24 deasline, but hopefully sooner.
Thanks, good info. So much is going on, its hard to see the essential information
It's not the same percentage for everybody. If your claim was quite small, the percentage will look higher. I was also thinking we were getting about 20% but in reality it's a little over 14% for me. Better than a poke in the eye, I guess.
Ahh ok, i was wondering
Why is the percent higher for more coins you had? We all got stolen from equally? My claim was not large but it seems I'm getting 20% of BTC back
In general, about 6 of that 21% of expected bitcoin repaid is the cash allotment. Some of your bitcoin balance is repaid as cash, and the cash per coin is repaid at a 2018 valuation. Not ideal, but its part of a compromise made to benefit your claim on a larger scale. The alternative was about $500 per coin if traditional bankruptcy wasn't stayed. Also, if a claim doesn't have any fiat claims (a cash balance), the 200k yen value of the small sums payment can be filled by a ratio of of the relative value of BTC/BCH. This is actually nice because it is like you're getting a little bit of flat 2018 value bitcoin before it gets proportionally divided up. Anyway it will also swing the percent BTC you see as well if you have a claim of only bitcoin. And then there's also the answer as it pertains to relative claim size in general. People often confuse the BTC repayment with overall claim repayment. A sufficiently small claim for example, even if just composed of a small amount of bitcoin, will be fully represented by small sums payment and its possible to see a percent repayment closer to 100% if the claim's value is near 200k yen.
My calculations are showing 16.6%
When i did my math, the amount i would receive would be less than what the table says, so, maybe we didn't knew and assume a lot of things
Have you actually received the payment yet? My payment is showing incomplete as of 04/18.
It's done on a curve. If your claim is a little over 2 bitcoins you will get 21% back. Shocked me to find out that my bitcoin payout is only around 15% of the original number of bitcoins that I had. https://preview.redd.it/ghyvdaxy0gvc1.png?width=1169&format=png&auto=webp&s=bb8db062ed87811d1548d4190b1cb0c0c58779b4
According to the table (haven't received any BTC/BCH yet, of course), my BTC and BCH seem to be 13.3%.