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The Bulls scored 66 points in the paint night, their 2nd most in a game this season. The only game they had with more points in the paint was against the Spurs lol.
u/drtom u/sptagnew u/rps215 u/uncle_freddy u/friendeater
Any explanation other than obvious favoritism for why your mod team would delete a post of Jokic clips from a single game with a basic title but leave up an untrue Embiid hate post with 9k upvotes?
[Joel Embiid is 7’1 with six straight jumpers and three turnovers in crunch time.](https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/zzyml2/louallen_joel_embiid_is_71_with_six_straight/) \- Embiid had 2 turnovers and 4 shot attempts in the 4th quarter of [that game](https://www.nba.com/game/phi-vs-nop-0022200534/box-score?period=Q4)
It’s genuinely wild how nuggets fans are so quick to flex the “top 10 defensive rating over the last month btw” like the main criticism of Jokic hasn’t been getting cooked alive defensively in every single **playoff** series he’s ever been in
Murray was playing like prime MJ and they came back from a 3-1 deficit. The Nuggets defense with Jokic on the court was still terrible in all of those series
Murray had to 2 50 point games. The nuggets won 2 rounds only to lose to the eventual finals winners. Again, how did Jokic lead the nuggets to the conference finals if he was cooked in every single playoff series?
I honestly have no clue what you’re asking lmao
1st off Jokic didn’t lead the nuggets to the conference finals since Murray was the better player. 2nd the nuggets defense was awful with Jokic on the court, even if they won the series he was absolutely getting torched defensively
The same way that Steve Nash did. They try their best to hide him on defense and outscore the opponents.
Great offense-only players can and do find playoff success on occasion, but most of the time they will fall short of a championship because they're playing a series against a team that has a better roster of players who can play on both ends.
Facing the Jazz who are historically chokers for some reason, and Rudy "The Dream" Gobert. Facing Paul George in his Pandemic P avatar and the clippers who didn't even want to be there. Also JM turning into MJ.
Jokic led in points, rebounds, and assist.... I love how you have an excuse for every series the nuggets won. It's cute. Not sure it qualifies as a debate but it's cute.
This thread is going to have a lot of Jokic bashing in it. My advice for Nuggets fans is just to laugh alongside everyone poking fun at Jokic's worst game of the season.
Oh I’m having a blast honestly…when he wins MVP again this sun will meltdown and I’ll be happily watching along. Plus if anyone besides Jokic wins MVP it’ll be Giannis and I’m more than okay with that.
Honestly that’ll just make me laugh on this sub even more. It’ll cause a bigger meltdown from Sixers fans and I’m here for it.
Obviously I’d rather make/win the Finals but take your entertainment where you can get it. It’s too easy to have fun on this sub when people overreact after every game.
>Honestly that’ll just make me laugh on this sub even more. It’ll cause a bigger meltdown from Sixers fans and I’m here for it.
Hilarious for the Sixer fans, of all people, to get mad about playoff performances. At least Giannis has the playoff success. Embiid hasn't even gotten out of the second round.
the last postseason he had a healthy roster around him he made the WCFs. While players like LeBron and Curry are missing the playoffs with poor rosters, he's carrying an insufficient supporting cast to the postseason, it's just his complete lack of help becomes apparent when facing actual contenders
Because this is getting ridiculous. I would be attacking his defense if I saw a widespread opinion that he is some great defender. I just find the opinion here to be equally ridiculous - there is very little hard evidence to suggest he is a disastrous regular season defender (and compelling evidence in his career DRTG that proves otherwise). This video shows that Jokic had a number of defensive lapses in this game, but does not come close to proving he is overall a bad defender.
Kevin O’Connor will see this and tell you he’s an above average defender with a straight face. Zach Lowe argued for Jokic 3rd team all defense last year. Just because these guys are well known media personalities and content creators doesn’t mean that they have a clue. Yet both get votes on MVP.
Zach Lowe is one of the worst media guys when it comes to the blatant bias and favoritism and people trot him out like he's one of the best voices in sports
You cant tell me a bunch of voters don’t just listen to his podcast to copy his All-NBA teams because they don’t know who to vote for after the first 7 guys
Sports journalists opinions are as useful as your drunk uncle's. They're just passionate fans that spend too much time clipping highlights & reading publicly available advanced stats.
Ben Taylor too man:
https://youtu.be/CvNl_LIXhtY
I swear these media personalities are biased as fuck. I know Ben Taylor is like a god here but he's biased as fuck towards Jokic and Curry, or generally anyone that can pass or shoot. He called Kevin Huerter a future all star for fucks sake:
https://youtu.be/2P6natVzOLY
where does he call Huerter a future All-Star? also I think he's a pretty reasonable guy - him being higher on Curry or Jokic than most does not mean that he is therefore wrong. His criteria are simply about championship equity - he finds that isolation scoring is overrated, and passing/shooting/defense/offball play underrated because those things make good rosters even better, whereas ball-pounding offense becomes worse the better your team is. He actually believes that KD is a better offensive player than Curry in the past couple of seasons - he's not some blind homer, he's just higher on those people.
He's an average defender for an NBA player, he's near the bottom of the pack for centers though. He's not bad at defending in the way a forward would, but he can't rim protect pretty much at all. And having your center not be able to rim-protect can be a big liability, I think Denver at some point has to think about getting a 4 who can help on rim protection, could take them to another level.
I think it’s unfair to say they don’t have a clue. They for sure are more knowledgeable than the average person. But they for sure can have favorites and have blind spots just like the average fan. I mean, Zach Lowe manages to start believing in the sixers every year… he’s insane
how do people think this video is compelling? half the plays aren't really his fault - the first two are him helping after his teammates have breakdowns, not Jokic himself getting beat. OFC if he were a great defender he would block/stop some of these, but it's not like he is the problem on each of these plays.
It's also a lowlights montage of a single game. It just boggles my mind that people think this proves that Jokic is some atrocious defender. Saying "this proves Jokic is worse than average defensively" is in my eyes like saying "this salad has fewer calories than a diet Coke", you're looking through a narrow, bias lens that ignores holistic impact.
Saying he was “helping” on those first 2 plays is generous more like standing there watching the Lavine shoot. The first one he literally didn’t even get a hand up.
The first one had a teammate in the way - it was Gordon's breakdown, and he didn't even have a clear path to contest, that doesn't prove anything other than Jokic is not some mistake-eraser, which no one has ever argued. The second one he at least presents an obstacle to Lavine, who made a difficult shot - I would hazard a guess that if he took that shot 100 times, he would generate a poor overall offensive rating. He has consistently posted an above-average (by a few points) offensive rating despite a lack of strong defenders around him - Gordon is good but otherwise his teams lack perimeter defense.
Gordon did get beat but Jokic didn’t even attempt to affect that first shot. And I disagree about the difficulty of that second shot. I think Lavine takes that shot 100 times he’s hitting 75+ of them.
those aren't defensive analytics, those are "how good is Jokic's team defensively with him on". and across a massive sample size, they say, "pretty good". it's a compelling argument, and you've made none
I can't believe people trust this video more than what his D-BPM says. GOAT level defender, you can't just watch the games, you need to also consider what Excel says
sure, he had a garbage defensive game (though tbh a lot of these breakdowns are his teammates'), but people are acting like this proves verifiably that Jokic is an awful defender
By that logic you can easily put together a series of good defensive plays in a single game from Jokic and say he's a great defender.
Like you people do realize that this logic is the same one that Nuggets fans use to argue that Jokic is a great defender because he has a lot of clutch blocks right?
The thing is that if you actually watch Jokic play you can see that these kind of games are normal for him. It's not cherrypicked or whatever, this is just who he is defensively.
I mean drawing conclusions solely off of either is a terrible idea. How do you explain his good offensive ratings over his career despite unremarkable defenders around him? He has a lack of highlights and certainly plays he looks poor on defense, but I think his career defensive rating backs up the idea that he does have strengths (rebounding, positioning, great hands) that make him a serviceable regular season defender.
His argument for mvp isn’t gonna go away either. He has a unique playstyle that advanced stats love, and he doesn’t play defense so he’ll never get injured.
He somehow won the narrative last year too... Sixers had Ben Simmons and doc as our narrative and somehow lost to a 6th seed nuggets since they have 2 injured players.
Those 2 mfers are snipers but still bullshit
Exactly. It’s so clear his playstyle breaks the advanced stats, so every year he’ll be ahead and that will snowball the discussion and he’ll be the front runner. When advanced stats are re-contextualized people will have a different view and it won’t be the end all be all
When he’s going on his 7th MVP selection w/ 0 Finals appearances & the stat nerds will tell us it’s just a regular season award.
I honestly wonder at what point will they stop giving it to him. It’s not like his numbers will be all that different from year to year at this point.
The other thing is: how will they *justify* NOT giving it to him going forward?
He’s won it in every possible scenario now (6th, 3rd, 1st seeds). Based on their “logic”, he shouldn’t lose for the foreseeable future no matter what the Nuggets record is.
I wouldn't be so sure he won't ever make Finals; he was a lot less good in the bubble than he is today, but actually had good teammates, and made the WCFs; if Giannis doesn't get faulted for a second round exit last year, I don't think it's fair to fault Jokic for a lack of success missing two teammates on max contracts
Giannis won the year prior, so yeah.
Also not our problem y’all maxed MPJ who’s at a perpetual risk to tear his back yet again. I’ll give you murray though, who was the best player in the bubble.
Is there an advanced stat that illustrates how many times this man allows people to go straight to the rim even though he's in position to try to contest? LOL
jesus, I find this take so flawed. the MVP is about production and level of play, not "is Jokic as good as others that have threepeated", that's such a ridiculous argument
Harden would get grilled for a clip of 1 play, and would constantly have his defense used to detract from his MVP candidacy. Jokic has faced no such scrutiny
At least with Harden you didn't have stan analysts/MVP voters trying to gaslight people into thinking he's an "above average defender" so they could justify voting him for MVP until the end of time. He actually lost the 2018-19 MVP to Giannis despite being better statistically because Giannis was better defensively but of course the goalposts have moved for the media's favorite player Jokic.
> At least with Harden you didn't have stan analysts/MVP voters trying to gaslight people into thinking he's an "above average defender" so they could justify voting him for MVP until the end of time.
Harden stats at the time absolutely did use to say he was a good post defender, etc
It is true the MVP voters buy this BS for Jokic when they didn't for Harden tho
Harden at least started putting in more effort after those highlights and wasn't a liability after 2017 on that end anymore. Jokic on the other hand will always be a defensive liability in the playoffs
So let me get this straight, Embiid avg 10 more ppg, leading the league, and is also a top 5 defender in the league. Meanwhile, Jokic is a straight up bad defender.
Furthermore, in 2021 and 2022 seeding didnt matter. But now that Jokic is the 1 seed, its a deal breaker.
FURTHERMORE, Jokics assists make him a B2B2B MVP, but Hardens assists don't even get him into the all-star game.
Jokic is simply held to a lower standard than everyone else.
No one is actually going to try to refuse this with any sort of logical argument, just resort to “Embiid flop” shittakes. Because they can’t argue against it.
I’m curious, what about Giannis vs Embiid - putting aside your Sixers fandom for a minute, what’s the argument between the two for MVP? Who would you have higher and why? Personally I think I’d have it Giannis then Embiid then Jokic, and I find it silly how the media has proclaimed jokic mvp already
Honestly don’t care, I feel like embiid this season is slightly better than Giannis, but that could be bias. Giannis at least plays both sides of the ball and I feel that’s crazy important. I don’t hate Jokic, his passing range is mind boggling, but so is his passiveness in the fourth on a lot of occasions (he gets compliments for taking 1 shot in the fourth that’s a buzzer beater, imo if you’re the star you shouldn’t only take 1 shot) and especially his defence.
Obviously Jokic is a top 5-7 player in the league, but his defence isn’t there nor improving enough to make me say ‘yeah he’s a 3x b2b2b mvp’, something like 2 people ever have done.
As a Sixers fan, I think all 3 of them are having an equally impressive season. That being said, Jokic already has 2, and shouldn't have gotten last years, so he's disqualified for me.
So it really depends on who finishes the season stronger between Joel and Giannis.
1. Giannis has league-best defensive metrics, albeit with quite a bit of help, but Joel is also a top 5 defender.
2. Joel scores 2ppg more on +5 TS%.
3. Giannis' team has the best record in the league, and Joel's team is 4.5 games behind.
4. Joel is 2-1 against Giannis this season, outplaying him in both of the wins.
I'm biased and think Joel should get it, especially after coming up short the two previous seasons
Thanks for the response. I actually don’t believe Jokic should be in the tier with Embiid just bc of defence, but understandable! I think what gives Giannis the edge for me would just be team record especially given the lack of Middleton this year, but there’s a decent amount of season left so I could see myself taking Joel at the end depending on how things shake out
How can you even talk when Embiid has utterly crushed Jokic in their head to heads? Jokic isn't respected by his peers either, last pick in every All-Star game while Embiid is picked first
Post this clip next time anyone try to argue any defensive advanced stat has any meaning.
MAYBE you can argue % at the rim allowed can measure the value of a rim protector, other then that defensive stats are all meaningless
3rd in D-RAPTOR this year btw. And garbage "advanced defensive stats" like that were used by Jokic stan analysts like Zach Lowe last year to argue he was a good defender so he could give MVP to his favorite player again
That's because Defensive box plus minus is meaningless. It's what's left over from "overall BPM - Offensive BPM" - and includes stuff like weighing center assists higher (which obviously helps Jokic given his offensive role).
Even the creators of the stat say not to take the defensive one particularly seriously
the walking over to double team derozan, then trying to kick the ball as derozan passes it only to end up too off balance to get to his man one pass away was hilarious. I don't even think jokic is that bad of a defender anymore (not good either) but he was obviously feeling a little off yesterday.
Remember when James Harden lost the MVP to Giannis almost exclusively because of defense? Why is this suddenly unimportant in this years race, when 2/3 of the top candidates are elite defenders and the other is….this
Can't believe I'm about to say this but... a lot of these aren't THAT bad. A big playing drop coverage is going to have a bunch of plays every game where they're giving up mid-range shots with space.
The issue is the argument that Jokic' defense isn't a problem AT ALL, and that his DBPM is actually great. That obviously doesn't mesh with what we see.
There were some possessions that had some wide-open midranges from the Bulls while Jokic was in a drop. Those weren’t his fault since those were the shots that Denver was conceding.
The alarming possessions were when he was in a drop and still did a poor job protecting the rim. He wasn’t even jumping to contest some layups. The whole point of the drop is to protect the rim and if he can’t do that, what coverage can he play in?
Yeah. I really don't enjoy the way "hating" a specific player or team has become the identity for a bunch of fans. It's weird and is like the antithesis of how I enjoy basketball. Jokic is awesome.
At the same time, I've seen Embiid get some wild hate posts and just speaking honestly it is kind of cathartic to see it happen to Jokic, who is undeniably treated gentler on this sub.
Jokic just isn’t a star that’s in the spotlight. His personality from a media standpoint is much more akin to Duncan or Kawhi.
He gets treated more like than, but recently the discourse around Jokic has been incredibly toxic due to fans jealous that media voters like Jokic over their guy.
Nuggets benefit so much from a weak western conference. 32-12 in the west, 14-8 in the east. Huge discrepancy imo. Yeah they’re winning the west. They’d be 4-6 seed in the east
Gordon and KCP deserves more credit for making Jokic look like a competent defender
It was obvious Jokic wasn't a good defender when Malone had to sit him in order for Denver to get the game winning stop that playoff game against GS lol
>at least above average
Actually DBPM has him 5th ALL TIME and 1st for the past 2 seasons.
This is equivalent to an offensive advanced stat which says Frank Ntilikina is top 5 all time in offense.
Only Bucks and Sixers fans really care about MVP. That won’t change the narrative at all
Now, if Jokic wins a championship playing like this, then everyone will shut up
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The Bulls scored 66 points in the paint night, their 2nd most in a game this season. The only game they had with more points in the paint was against the Spurs lol.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/zh9y2b/the_nuggets_are_allowing_the_worst_fg_in_the/
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Biased mods lol
Lmfao mods got money on Jokic MVP
Boston Media Mafia currently venmoing the mods to delete this
And….it’s deleted. Predictable
u/drtom u/sptagnew u/rps215 u/uncle_freddy u/friendeater Any explanation other than obvious favoritism for why your mod team would delete a post of Jokic clips from a single game with a basic title but leave up an untrue Embiid hate post with 9k upvotes? [Joel Embiid is 7’1 with six straight jumpers and three turnovers in crunch time.](https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/zzyml2/louallen_joel_embiid_is_71_with_six_straight/) \- Embiid had 2 turnovers and 4 shot attempts in the 4th quarter of [that game](https://www.nba.com/game/phi-vs-nop-0022200534/box-score?period=Q4)
Very interested to hear what the justification is
they hate us
Please tell me you at least have this clip saved and uploaded somewhere so the link can be pasted anytime someone calls Jokic a good defender
Such an amazing mod team.
Classy mods like the classy player.
White mods blindly supporting a white player, has Embiid tried being a bit classier?
What would Vanvleet say about this mod team? 🤔
Holy shit they actually did delete it for literally no good reason. Would love to see how they justify deleting this
Soon to be deleted
Already in playoff form.
Defense wins championships
It’s genuinely wild how nuggets fans are so quick to flex the “top 10 defensive rating over the last month btw” like the main criticism of Jokic hasn’t been getting cooked alive defensively in every single **playoff** series he’s ever been in
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I’m just taking about him overall as a player, not his case for mvp
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Jamaal Murray 50 bombs probably had a lot to do with that
No good teammates btw.
Murray was playing like prime MJ and they came back from a 3-1 deficit. The Nuggets defense with Jokic on the court was still terrible in all of those series
Murray had to 2 50 point games. The nuggets won 2 rounds only to lose to the eventual finals winners. Again, how did Jokic lead the nuggets to the conference finals if he was cooked in every single playoff series?
I honestly have no clue what you’re asking lmao 1st off Jokic didn’t lead the nuggets to the conference finals since Murray was the better player. 2nd the nuggets defense was awful with Jokic on the court, even if they won the series he was absolutely getting torched defensively
The same way that Steve Nash did. They try their best to hide him on defense and outscore the opponents. Great offense-only players can and do find playoff success on occasion, but most of the time they will fall short of a championship because they're playing a series against a team that has a better roster of players who can play on both ends.
Facing the Jazz who are historically chokers for some reason, and Rudy "The Dream" Gobert. Facing Paul George in his Pandemic P avatar and the clippers who didn't even want to be there. Also JM turning into MJ.
Jokic led in points, rebounds, and assist.... I love how you have an excuse for every series the nuggets won. It's cute. Not sure it qualifies as a debate but it's cute.
Jamal Murray literally averaged more points and assists on similar efficiency as Jokic did in the 2020 playoffs
Leads in points rebounds and assists.... allowed for the opposition.
What do you mean? He's actually on the court here
MVP form*
Jokic is a monster in the playoffs what are you going on about?
Yeah, offensively
This thread is going to have a lot of Jokic bashing in it. My advice for Nuggets fans is just to laugh alongside everyone poking fun at Jokic's worst game of the season.
Oh I’m having a blast honestly…when he wins MVP again this sun will meltdown and I’ll be happily watching along. Plus if anyone besides Jokic wins MVP it’ll be Giannis and I’m more than okay with that.
Embiid made Jokic his son earlier this year
Damn he beat us 1 game I’m devastated. Will make that MV3 even better seeing the Sixers meltdown when Embiid gets 3rd in voting.
You can’t tell me with a straight face that Jokic should 3peat the MVP when dudes like LeBron and MJ never did lmaoo
Damn I didn’t know MJ was a factor in these MVP races!!! TIL.
MJ today is still a better defender than jokic
Jokic is probably winning it but, if he wins it and the Nuggets don't make the finals, oh boy. You guys better stay off reddit for a while lmao
Honestly that’ll just make me laugh on this sub even more. It’ll cause a bigger meltdown from Sixers fans and I’m here for it. Obviously I’d rather make/win the Finals but take your entertainment where you can get it. It’s too easy to have fun on this sub when people overreact after every game.
>Honestly that’ll just make me laugh on this sub even more. It’ll cause a bigger meltdown from Sixers fans and I’m here for it. Hilarious for the Sixer fans, of all people, to get mad about playoff performances. At least Giannis has the playoff success. Embiid hasn't even gotten out of the second round.
“I’m having a blast honestly” as you fervently respond to every comment in the thread
the last postseason he had a healthy roster around him he made the WCFs. While players like LeBron and Curry are missing the playoffs with poor rosters, he's carrying an insufficient supporting cast to the postseason, it's just his complete lack of help becomes apparent when facing actual contenders
Can you please just put up a nuggets flair? You’re defending him on every single comment.
Because this is getting ridiculous. I would be attacking his defense if I saw a widespread opinion that he is some great defender. I just find the opinion here to be equally ridiculous - there is very little hard evidence to suggest he is a disastrous regular season defender (and compelling evidence in his career DRTG that proves otherwise). This video shows that Jokic had a number of defensive lapses in this game, but does not come close to proving he is overall a bad defender.
Kevin O’Connor will see this and tell you he’s an above average defender with a straight face. Zach Lowe argued for Jokic 3rd team all defense last year. Just because these guys are well known media personalities and content creators doesn’t mean that they have a clue. Yet both get votes on MVP.
Zach Lowe is one of the worst media guys when it comes to the blatant bias and favoritism and people trot him out like he's one of the best voices in sports
You cant tell me a bunch of voters don’t just listen to his podcast to copy his All-NBA teams because they don’t know who to vote for after the first 7 guys
That's exactly what happens
Sports journalists opinions are as useful as your drunk uncle's. They're just passionate fans that spend too much time clipping highlights & reading publicly available advanced stats.
Ben Taylor too man: https://youtu.be/CvNl_LIXhtY I swear these media personalities are biased as fuck. I know Ben Taylor is like a god here but he's biased as fuck towards Jokic and Curry, or generally anyone that can pass or shoot. He called Kevin Huerter a future all star for fucks sake: https://youtu.be/2P6natVzOLY
I was actually just listening to his most recent episode, and then when I heard him start talking about Jokic I went to watch this video lol.
where does he call Huerter a future All-Star? also I think he's a pretty reasonable guy - him being higher on Curry or Jokic than most does not mean that he is therefore wrong. His criteria are simply about championship equity - he finds that isolation scoring is overrated, and passing/shooting/defense/offball play underrated because those things make good rosters even better, whereas ball-pounding offense becomes worse the better your team is. He actually believes that KD is a better offensive player than Curry in the past couple of seasons - he's not some blind homer, he's just higher on those people.
He's an average defender for an NBA player, he's near the bottom of the pack for centers though. He's not bad at defending in the way a forward would, but he can't rim protect pretty much at all. And having your center not be able to rim-protect can be a big liability, I think Denver at some point has to think about getting a 4 who can help on rim protection, could take them to another level.
seriously if Denver could get their hands on a JJJ type guy they’d be unstoppable. obviously not easy to find but man that would be nasty
Even just a timelord level player who only gets lobs offense would be enough
Just trade for Serge Ibaka and put him in a de-aging machine.
I think it’s unfair to say they don’t have a clue. They for sure are more knowledgeable than the average person. But they for sure can have favorites and have blind spots just like the average fan. I mean, Zach Lowe manages to start believing in the sixers every year… he’s insane
Respective to the influence he has, he’s clueless to his own biases. And he loves to hear himself talk about the guys he is biased towards.
how do people think this video is compelling? half the plays aren't really his fault - the first two are him helping after his teammates have breakdowns, not Jokic himself getting beat. OFC if he were a great defender he would block/stop some of these, but it's not like he is the problem on each of these plays. It's also a lowlights montage of a single game. It just boggles my mind that people think this proves that Jokic is some atrocious defender. Saying "this proves Jokic is worse than average defensively" is in my eyes like saying "this salad has fewer calories than a diet Coke", you're looking through a narrow, bias lens that ignores holistic impact.
Saying he was “helping” on those first 2 plays is generous more like standing there watching the Lavine shoot. The first one he literally didn’t even get a hand up.
The first one had a teammate in the way - it was Gordon's breakdown, and he didn't even have a clear path to contest, that doesn't prove anything other than Jokic is not some mistake-eraser, which no one has ever argued. The second one he at least presents an obstacle to Lavine, who made a difficult shot - I would hazard a guess that if he took that shot 100 times, he would generate a poor overall offensive rating. He has consistently posted an above-average (by a few points) offensive rating despite a lack of strong defenders around him - Gordon is good but otherwise his teams lack perimeter defense.
Gordon did get beat but Jokic didn’t even attempt to affect that first shot. And I disagree about the difficulty of that second shot. I think Lavine takes that shot 100 times he’s hitting 75+ of them.
It’s bad defense dude
cool, he has had above-average defensive ratings his entire career without strong defenders around him. that means 100x more than a lowlights montage
He’s a bad defender at the most impactful defensive position. The defensive analytics are a joke.
those aren't defensive analytics, those are "how good is Jokic's team defensively with him on". and across a massive sample size, they say, "pretty good". it's a compelling argument, and you've made none
I can't believe people trust this video more than what his D-BPM says. GOAT level defender, you can't just watch the games, you need to also consider what Excel says
Defensive advanced stats are shit but judging someone's defense based on lowlights is also shit.
When the lowlights are this long from a single game, it's pretty telling that he had a garbage game defensively.
sure, he had a garbage defensive game (though tbh a lot of these breakdowns are his teammates'), but people are acting like this proves verifiably that Jokic is an awful defender
These lowlights are all from a single game though, it's not like Harden's situation where it was a video of lowlights from a 82 game season
By that logic you can easily put together a series of good defensive plays in a single game from Jokic and say he's a great defender. Like you people do realize that this logic is the same one that Nuggets fans use to argue that Jokic is a great defender because he has a lot of clutch blocks right?
The thing is that if you actually watch Jokic play you can see that these kind of games are normal for him. It's not cherrypicked or whatever, this is just who he is defensively.
I do watch Jokic play a good amount. He isn't nearly as bad defensively as these lowlights indicate especially in the regular season.
Don't worry, this video didn't change my opinion at all
I mean drawing conclusions solely off of either is a terrible idea. How do you explain his good offensive ratings over his career despite unremarkable defenders around him? He has a lack of highlights and certainly plays he looks poor on defense, but I think his career defensive rating backs up the idea that he does have strengths (rebounding, positioning, great hands) that make him a serviceable regular season defender.
This dude is going to win 5 straight MVPs because advanced stats say he’s the greatest player of all-time.
If he’s the mvp this year I quite frankly do not see how he doesn’t just keep winning them until he regresses
His argument for mvp isn’t gonna go away either. He has a unique playstyle that advanced stats love, and he doesn’t play defense so he’ll never get injured.
He somehow won the narrative last year too... Sixers had Ben Simmons and doc as our narrative and somehow lost to a 6th seed nuggets since they have 2 injured players. Those 2 mfers are snipers but still bullshit
Exactly. It’s so clear his playstyle breaks the advanced stats, so every year he’ll be ahead and that will snowball the discussion and he’ll be the front runner. When advanced stats are re-contextualized people will have a different view and it won’t be the end all be all
When he’s going on his 7th MVP selection w/ 0 Finals appearances & the stat nerds will tell us it’s just a regular season award. I honestly wonder at what point will they stop giving it to him. It’s not like his numbers will be all that different from year to year at this point. The other thing is: how will they *justify* NOT giving it to him going forward? He’s won it in every possible scenario now (6th, 3rd, 1st seeds). Based on their “logic”, he shouldn’t lose for the foreseeable future no matter what the Nuggets record is.
I wouldn't be so sure he won't ever make Finals; he was a lot less good in the bubble than he is today, but actually had good teammates, and made the WCFs; if Giannis doesn't get faulted for a second round exit last year, I don't think it's fair to fault Jokic for a lack of success missing two teammates on max contracts
Giannis won the year prior, so yeah. Also not our problem y’all maxed MPJ who’s at a perpetual risk to tear his back yet again. I’ll give you murray though, who was the best player in the bubble.
Jokic should study Marc Gasol
That’s the only role he’ll have a chance at winning a title in.
The Jokult racing to erase this footage from the archives like it’s fucking Kamino Edit: aaaaand it’s gone lmao
That’s 47 points either scored on Jokic or because of a TO. That feels really high
Embiid did that on his head this year lol
Is there an advanced stat that illustrates how many times this man allows people to go straight to the rim even though he's in position to try to contest? LOL
Not the mvp not the mvp. He is NOT worthy of being a back to back to back MVP. That is meant for the greatest players of all time.
Factual
bbbbbbut RAPTOR told me he’s better than prime Jordan
The fact he is going to win 3 in a row and Lebron and MJ never did is a crime.
jesus, I find this take so flawed. the MVP is about production and level of play, not "is Jokic as good as others that have threepeated", that's such a ridiculous argument
This is getting to Harden levels of defense highlights on this sub lmaooo
Harden would get grilled for a clip of 1 play, and would constantly have his defense used to detract from his MVP candidacy. Jokic has faced no such scrutiny
You clearly don’t understand basketball. Eye test means nothing. Results mean nothing. Only thing matters is Jokic’s RAPTOR.
Love it
At least with Harden you didn't have stan analysts/MVP voters trying to gaslight people into thinking he's an "above average defender" so they could justify voting him for MVP until the end of time. He actually lost the 2018-19 MVP to Giannis despite being better statistically because Giannis was better defensively but of course the goalposts have moved for the media's favorite player Jokic.
> At least with Harden you didn't have stan analysts/MVP voters trying to gaslight people into thinking he's an "above average defender" so they could justify voting him for MVP until the end of time. Harden stats at the time absolutely did use to say he was a good post defender, etc It is true the MVP voters buy this BS for Jokic when they didn't for Harden tho
Have you seen his RAPTOR though?
But one plays PG and the other is supposed to be the defensive anchor as center.. hmmmm
Harden at least started putting in more effort after those highlights and wasn't a liability after 2017 on that end anymore. Jokic on the other hand will always be a defensive liability in the playoffs
The 2nd last one is embarrassing.
So let me get this straight, Embiid avg 10 more ppg, leading the league, and is also a top 5 defender in the league. Meanwhile, Jokic is a straight up bad defender. Furthermore, in 2021 and 2022 seeding didnt matter. But now that Jokic is the 1 seed, its a deal breaker. FURTHERMORE, Jokics assists make him a B2B2B MVP, but Hardens assists don't even get him into the all-star game. Jokic is simply held to a lower standard than everyone else.
No one is actually going to try to refuse this with any sort of logical argument, just resort to “Embiid flop” shittakes. Because they can’t argue against it.
I’m curious, what about Giannis vs Embiid - putting aside your Sixers fandom for a minute, what’s the argument between the two for MVP? Who would you have higher and why? Personally I think I’d have it Giannis then Embiid then Jokic, and I find it silly how the media has proclaimed jokic mvp already
Honestly don’t care, I feel like embiid this season is slightly better than Giannis, but that could be bias. Giannis at least plays both sides of the ball and I feel that’s crazy important. I don’t hate Jokic, his passing range is mind boggling, but so is his passiveness in the fourth on a lot of occasions (he gets compliments for taking 1 shot in the fourth that’s a buzzer beater, imo if you’re the star you shouldn’t only take 1 shot) and especially his defence. Obviously Jokic is a top 5-7 player in the league, but his defence isn’t there nor improving enough to make me say ‘yeah he’s a 3x b2b2b mvp’, something like 2 people ever have done.
As a Sixers fan, I think all 3 of them are having an equally impressive season. That being said, Jokic already has 2, and shouldn't have gotten last years, so he's disqualified for me. So it really depends on who finishes the season stronger between Joel and Giannis. 1. Giannis has league-best defensive metrics, albeit with quite a bit of help, but Joel is also a top 5 defender. 2. Joel scores 2ppg more on +5 TS%. 3. Giannis' team has the best record in the league, and Joel's team is 4.5 games behind. 4. Joel is 2-1 against Giannis this season, outplaying him in both of the wins. I'm biased and think Joel should get it, especially after coming up short the two previous seasons
Thanks for the response. I actually don’t believe Jokic should be in the tier with Embiid just bc of defence, but understandable! I think what gives Giannis the edge for me would just be team record especially given the lack of Middleton this year, but there’s a decent amount of season left so I could see myself taking Joel at the end depending on how things shake out
Dear Diary, Jokic is better than my flopper and I’m salty.
That is a valid criticism. I wish he’d flop less and stand by watching defenders go to the rim more. Could really take his game to the next level
Flopper? Obviously you haven’t watched any games of his this year or the one where he bodied your boy
How can you even talk when Embiid has utterly crushed Jokic in their head to heads? Jokic isn't respected by his peers either, last pick in every All-Star game while Embiid is picked first
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Using all star voting as a meaningful metric….. you’re the clown
I’m not interested in these videos of actual gameplay. What’s his defensive RAPTOR.
Post this clip next time anyone try to argue any defensive advanced stat has any meaning. MAYBE you can argue % at the rim allowed can measure the value of a rim protector, other then that defensive stats are all meaningless
Seems like very valuable play. To the bulls
Aint no fucking way the mods deleted this, absolute fucking joke of an excuse of a subreddit
Jokic gets an ounce of the shit embiid gets over the years and the mods don't know how to handle it. Shits crazy
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Cause this was Chicago (Bulls), easily confused with Toronto, which would be RAPTOR
Mods going full CCP on r/nba to protect Jokic
3rd in D-RAPTOR this year btw. And garbage "advanced defensive stats" like that were used by Jokic stan analysts like Zach Lowe last year to argue he was a good defender so he could give MVP to his favorite player again
He’s the best defender in the league by a wide margin according to defensive box plus minus which is rather embarrassing for the stat itself.
That's because Defensive box plus minus is meaningless. It's what's left over from "overall BPM - Offensive BPM" - and includes stuff like weighing center assists higher (which obviously helps Jokic given his offensive role). Even the creators of the stat say not to take the defensive one particularly seriously
feels like lowe has pretty consistently been like idc what advanced defensive stat you tell me he’s not a good defender, average at best
Only when it became irrefutable. Now defense is waved along very quickly by him in discussions
Jesus man put your damn hands up
which mod deleted this? lol
But the media told me he’s better at defense and his advanced metrics rate him as a good defender 🥴🥴🥴
The playoffs are gonna be beautiful
I'm not sure I could do better, but I'm pretty sure I couldn't do worse.
I’m pretty confident you would do worse
Im 100% sure you can do a lot worse
Nobody being there at all would have the same outcome lol
Defense isn’t as important as passing bro-unless you lead the league in assists and don’t even make the all star game.
the walking over to double team derozan, then trying to kick the ball as derozan passes it only to end up too off balance to get to his man one pass away was hilarious. I don't even think jokic is that bad of a defender anymore (not good either) but he was obviously feeling a little off yesterday.
Which mod made a bet on Jokic MVP?
ay mods explain yourselves for removing this. fucking clowns.
This is a rather not nice post lmao. Gotta say some of these aren't really his fault but watching them back to back to back is just brutal.
\*\[Lowlight\]
bots vs nephews. I hope the nephews win.
Remember when James Harden lost the MVP to Giannis almost exclusively because of defense? Why is this suddenly unimportant in this years race, when 2/3 of the top candidates are elite defenders and the other is….this
the mods should also be deleted from this subreddit LOL
Why was this deleted???
Can't believe I'm about to say this but... a lot of these aren't THAT bad. A big playing drop coverage is going to have a bunch of plays every game where they're giving up mid-range shots with space. The issue is the argument that Jokic' defense isn't a problem AT ALL, and that his DBPM is actually great. That obviously doesn't mesh with what we see.
There were some possessions that had some wide-open midranges from the Bulls while Jokic was in a drop. Those weren’t his fault since those were the shots that Denver was conceding. The alarming possessions were when he was in a drop and still did a poor job protecting the rim. He wasn’t even jumping to contest some layups. The whole point of the drop is to protect the rim and if he can’t do that, what coverage can he play in?
Some of these aren't bad but I think the first 2 plays and the last one were pretty bad.
A lot of Jokic haters were waiting for a bad game and last night was the singular bad game they have been waiting for months for.
Yeah. I really don't enjoy the way "hating" a specific player or team has become the identity for a bunch of fans. It's weird and is like the antithesis of how I enjoy basketball. Jokic is awesome. At the same time, I've seen Embiid get some wild hate posts and just speaking honestly it is kind of cathartic to see it happen to Jokic, who is undeniably treated gentler on this sub.
> "hating" a specific player or team has become the identity for a bunch of fans. Legit what this sub is used for.
Jokic just isn’t a star that’s in the spotlight. His personality from a media standpoint is much more akin to Duncan or Kawhi. He gets treated more like than, but recently the discourse around Jokic has been incredibly toxic due to fans jealous that media voters like Jokic over their guy.
Tim duncan and kawhi are a level above jokic come on now
You don't need to wait for a bad Jokic defensive game bruh, it happens almost every game when they are playing against a decent opponent
And it was the first time since October he shot below 50% from the field. Jokic haters had a major boner over that.
Yeah, a decent opponent like the clippers 3 games ago
Clippers have 0 rim penetration, they are literally known as a team that only shoots jump shots.
What defense?
Why would Embiid do this? Additional unnecessary characters to avoid the auto-non-Celtics fan ban.
Looks like a back-to-back MVP to me!
You see, Jokic clearly gives up a lot of points here. But, his VORPometer is off the charts! #advancedstats
Masterclass by Jokfat and the mods
I choose not to watch this and instead just look at a calculator to determine a player's worth, sorry.
I look at their credit scores to determine MVP status
Nuggets benefit so much from a weak western conference. 32-12 in the west, 14-8 in the east. Huge discrepancy imo. Yeah they’re winning the west. They’d be 4-6 seed in the east
Best center in the league right?
MVP
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Most advanced defensive stats show him as elite
Which is why nobody should give a damn about defensive statistics like that. Many of them are awful at tracking individual defense
Which ones show him as elite other than RAPTOR and BPM? Genuinely asking
Gordon and KCP deserves more credit for making Jokic look like a competent defender It was obvious Jokic wasn't a good defender when Malone had to sit him in order for Denver to get the game winning stop that playoff game against GS lol
Yea but what’s his RAPTOR/69 OP?
None of this matters. His DBPM and RAPTOR prove he’s at least above average on defense.
>at least above average Actually DBPM has him 5th ALL TIME and 1st for the past 2 seasons. This is equivalent to an offensive advanced stat which says Frank Ntilikina is top 5 all time in offense.
Number never lie
The funny thing is that that’s what people will be saying in april and may as they crown him the worst 3xmvp of all time
Well I mean they say you gotta get in your 10K steps in the run of a day haha. In all fairness he did contest some of these.
James Harden is like.. what was that?
2019 and onwards Harden would never let that happen tho
Delet this
MVP MVP MVP
The best defense is a good offense
When Jokic wins MV3 y’all are gonna have a meltdown and I’m all here for it 😂
Only Bucks and Sixers fans really care about MVP. That won’t change the narrative at all Now, if Jokic wins a championship playing like this, then everyone will shut up