It would be a smart move for him. He'd clearly get at least another five years if he goes to the Pistons.
Shit is about to go badly in Milwaukee.
I'm a Bucks fan. I don't see things going well in the next decade.
We got a championship though. I'm in my 40s and I never thought I'd see them win it all.
Shoot man, Dirk Nowitzki got one ring. That was more memorable than the two rings Durant won with the Warriors.
That Bucks win was incredible. Excellent defense all around.
Dirks was so special. It felt like they came out of no where and beat the heatles so bad he broke LeBron. To LeBron's credit he toughened up mentally and became a killer.
And then LeBron finally brought Cleveland their Championship. Continuing with the theme of the thread here, that was more memorable than his wins with the Heat. Hell, my headcanon refuses to recognize those years and I consider Cleveland to be LeBron's first true Championship.
His two best shots other than the miracle 2011 run was 06 and 07. Dirk was at his peak with his strongest supporting cast. Unfortunately Dwayne Wade broke his heart in 06 and he collapsed horrifically against the We Believe Warriors.
so he wanted to make competent choices while Giannis and the ownership just wanted to deliver memes.
Nick Nurse would’ve been a huge boost to this Bucks team
He's only drafted 7 players (9 if you count the 2017 draft, but that was the week he was appointed GM, so I don't know how involved he was), and Donte was one of them. 1/7 really isn't that bad in the draft, but yeah, agree with your overall point, Horst isn't perfect.
Especially drafting when y'all were drafting. I don't know if he's the greatest choice but at least he knows what a team should look like this millennium.
Knowing our team's luck, we'll end up getting it and it'll be another international center who disappoints/shouldn't have gone over a Hall of Famer picked right after
There’s not really a correlation between players wanting to play for a coach and how good the coach is
For example, Thibs was voted as the overwhelming favourite for being the coach that players don’t want to play with, yet most people here would say he’s a damn good coach
Nick Nurse has his issues (particularly the complaining) but I think most people would agree he’s still a great coach. Who knows, maybe Giannis is still petty about 2019 for some reason
Almost like players should accept that they're bad at team building and that's why teams hire FO's staffed by people who have more qualifications than pretending to go to college for a year.
I can see both sides of it; if you’re Giannis you’re going to be working with the coach all day everyday so if they’re a complete psycho it’s reasonable to have opinions about that.
Totally, which is why it's on the FO to do what they think is right for the team. If they bring someone in who clashes with players and/or doesn't get results, that's a conversation!
Players shouldn't have a say in hiring staff or acquiring players, though. They're too close to the situation and they don't understand the underlying theories behind building out an organization.
I think players should have a say, but the final decision should be made by the FO.
It doesn't matter how good a certain coach is, if a productive relationship can't be built with them and the players, it's all for nothing.
Even if the Raptors fixed all their roster issues, I doubt our team would live up to their potential because Nurse had lost the locker room.
Bucks messed up by giving Giannis unilateral control. Not only did this result in a bad hire, but it also created a rift between Giannis and members of the FO.
bro you're reading too much with what little info we are given. how do you know giannis had unilateral control? for all we know he might've just said "yea i don't mind griffin, he may be good for us, i prefer him over nurse but do what you gotta do" when they hired him, and "i want to keep trying with griffin and see if things improve, but if you guys think we need to replace him then i have no problem with it"
rift between giannis and the FO? where did you even get that from
Franchise players should *obviously* be consulted when bringing in a new coach. The reason you, and a lot of people, feel like it's a bad idea is because r/nba has no sense of nuance and every instance of '[Player] liked [coach]' gets turned into '[Player] forced team to hire [coach]'.
Adrian Griffin made it to the list of finalists for the job. Jon Horst clearly believed he would be a good head coach. I know this place is thick as shit and has decided that any franchise player is a puppet master of every single personnel decision down to big boarding trade candidates but Giannis (and Khris) being asked for input on their head coach candidates and saying 'I prefer this guy' does not mean they overrode the FO or the process, it means they played their part of the process decided by the front office. If Horst did not think Griffin was a good coach then he was extremely dumb for putting him in the finalists, and dumber still for hiring him on apparently nothing more than a players say so - and I don't think Horst is dumb.
I truly, truly don't understand at what point 'Giannis preferred Adrian Griffin' became as the other person replying put it 'Giannis has unilateral control over the coaching hire'. Like people just invent an idea and then say it's a bad idea. No shit giving a player unilateral control over the coaching hire is a bad idea, **that's why front offices would never do it**.
Star players have literally never chosen a good coach in the history of the NBA. I don't think you have any idea about the egos these people have. They want a coach that will do whatever they say.
Ty Lue is a counter-example. David Blatt was a solid coach but he didn’t mesh with LeBron.
They fired Blatt and hired Lue because of pressure from LeBron and they won a championship because Lue out coached Stevens in the East that year.
It's like you literally didn't even read the comment you responded to.
Star players **don't** choose the coach in these situations. Giannis was not out there gathering a list of candidates to interview and calling up front offices and scheduling zoom meetings. The front office did that, got to three names they liked, and like every front office does when they have a player as prolific as Giannis or as tenured and important as Khris, sensibly got their input as part of the process. Giannis did not 'choose the coach', he gave his preference out of a final list of candidates that Jon Horst organised, interviewed, and decided upon and importantly *asked for input on*. If Jon Horst did not think Adrian Griffin would be a good head coach, Giannis wouldn't even know his name.
I hear you but the difference is Lebron met Spoelstra there. Spoelstra had already been with the heat organization for over ten years. Hiring a coach your loyal star doesn't want is the ultimate F*ck you! Lol
funny, in my career the bosses I liked best were not always the bosses that got the most out of me. Something I remember now that I'm leading a team/org.
Doesn't seem like the bucks are good enough to win it on talent and vibes alone. So a doc rivers "vibe" type coach aint gonna get you there.
The Nick Nurse we saw at the end of his tenure with the raps was in my eyes different than the Nick Nurse that led us to the title. All of the innovation was gone by the time he left. That would have played a factor with guys like FVV, Pascal and OG.
Having primarily veterans on the championship roster helped a lot. Lowry and Gasol are two of the highest IQ players to play their positions so whatever scheme Nurse wanted to implement, they were able to execute and communicate where everyone needed to be and they could adjust on the fly if things broke down.
Nick and Pascal even got into it during the Tampa season when Pascal, from all interviews and clips, is shown to be a pretty laid back guy. Even in Nick's book, he has alluded to OG being unhappy because FVV gets to do what he wants on offense. Playing tough love with certain players, sticking to his schemes even when they have been scouted and not working.
There were always cracks showing with Nurse but Toronto media/most fans looked the other way because he helped bring a championship.
Nurse is a great coach fuck all that nonsense
We had no right to go 7 in the bubble with Celtics
And his defensive schemes went beyond what that roster should be capable of afterwards too, we shouldn't have gone 6 with the Sixers in 2022 either
The only knock i have is that he hasn’t tried his athletic young backups at all. But yes, in the end Morey went for 1 year guys and vet min. The non min guys are all hurt or not living up to their contracts.
The thing with Nurse teams is that the man can’t accept a regular season loss so he’ll overplay his starters then be surprised when they’re burnt out in the playoffs
That's the same critique people have about Thibs, but the Knicks players don't seem burnt out at all. Even OG a former Nurse player and hater played 47 mins yesterday and looked arguably better at the end of the game than he did at the beginning.
Some players can't function effectively playing such heavy mins and will burn out, but others want to be out there all the time. A guy as big and injury prone as Embiid shouldn't ever play more than 40 a game or he will get tired down the stretch, he's just too big. But belief in a coach, system and team goes a long way towards heavy minutes being a non issue for most players who aren't nearly 300 pounds and 7ft+
look better than last year overall despite these struggles. just didn’t have a lucky first-round matchup this time around or a couple games of ridiculous shot-making, been nothing but rock fights.
the depth just can’t withstand New York’s physicality enough to allow Embiid to be fresh in the 4th quarter and Tobi is completely absent.
Idk man, I don’t think any of us are qualified to make a statement like that. Kawhi’s shot bounces slightly differently and we view Nurse’s Raptors tenure in a different light.
Aren't the Sixers are perfect showcase for this though? The team loses Doc and gains Nurse. Their offense immediately looked better despite losing a high caliber guard (Harden).
I just think how far a team goes in the playoffs is a poor indicator of their quality. Doc's Sixers teams had more talent (Harden) and would only pass the first round against dubious low-seeded Eastern teams (the Bridges Nets last year; and the greatest player Embiid has beaten is Siakim). Because of Embiid's injury, the team slipped down in seeding further than their talent would indicate. So they don't have an easy Eastern team to beat round one. In terms of skill level, New York vs Philly is more akin to a second round series, which is where the team's plateau seems to be anyways.
Big reasons were he actually called out players and challenged them. Players in today's league want guys like Doc Rivers and other player coaches.
It's like Vogel, he's a solid coach but lost the locker rooms in LA and Phoenix.
There was a report the other day he was heard screaming at his players through the doors and it went over the head of his stars and team.
And the underlying of that is because 90%+ of players just view the NBA as a job. So of course they want the guy that won't annoy them or make them do extra work. Sad reality.
Pretty much and there's quite a few players mentioned by other players (not by name) they're not in the league chasing greatness, just the money and famous perks.
I guess for alot of guys they spend a lot of time around team staff and don't want no stress at the job like regular people.
Nick Nurse is about to get bounced in the first round too.
The idea that he'd come in here and fix everything doesn't seem very realistic.
He's living off the title Kawhi won for him.
After Kawhi left that team won 53 games. 48 wins in 2021-2022. Those teams always defended well and he has coached up and developed tons of random role players and put them in positions to succeed. I think his track record stands for itself.
Umm, our players didn’t develop that well under Nurse, not nearly like they did under Casey. He kind of ignores players until they prove they can play his defensive scheme which is a taxing one
How come everyone who left Toronto always seems to do so much better where they go? Like they're better utilized? Put in better positions to succeed? I don't think he's a bad coach but he ain't a top coach in the league. Definitely overrated at least a bit
The Raptors don't have a star to take the pressure off other players. Just look at Jordan Poole on the Warriors. He got open shots all day because of Steph.
It's gotta be maddening to get hired in a leadership role in sports and then be constantly over ruled from all directions on your decisions. With a bonus of when things go wrong everyone looks at you and asks how you let it happen?
It is funny watching players get their way with a team then things fall apart. Giannis isn't just some bum, he is already a first ballot HOF guy and a super smart dude off the court, but he got his way several times with the team and it is a disaster.
Isn't Nurse's team down 1-3 with both of his best players playing in the first round? Not really fairing better than Doc who is missing Giannis and now Dame.
Not entirely sure Nurse is a "competent" choice.
I'm not sure what Embiid is doing out there should be considered playing. The man can barely move. He's not a fast pace player to begin with but it looks like he can't even run at all. How many points has he scored that weren't jump shots or free throws? He can't grab a board either
Knicks are missing a 2X all-nba player, and Robinson/Bojan missed last game. Injuries aren’t an excuse, on paper Philly even with an injured Embiid should be doing way better. Also Embiid didn’t look very injured when he dropped 50 like 2 nights ago
Is he though?
That wasn’t his hire, and it’s not like coaches salaries go against the cap.
Monty’s tenure has been so atrocious that Horst may be able to convince Gores to swallow his pride and rip that band-aid off
Your point is valid, but to Gores I’d say this is what you get for bidding against yourself for a coach that repeatedly told you he’s not interested in coaching your team.
Let the spinning begin, I guess. Did others draft like shit, and traded the one of the two good draftees players in a decade, Donte, for an expired bug of soup?
Pat and Grayson over Donte was bone headed. I understand there were concerns about his health but Donte had the best feel for the game, highest ceiling and played with heart.
He hasn't been able to find one playable wing for years. I understand the limited resources to work with but the league is run by wings and that has been a gaping hole on the roster for years.
Against who? We needed 3 and D players so badly... especially against Boston. Who did we need a big for that Giannis + Bobby couldn't guard assuming Brook is out? Maybe Denver if they make the finals? Sixers if somehow Embiid is ever healthy and makes it past the 2nd round?
I keep seeing this silly take that we need "big depth" when some of our best lineups have been Giannis at the 5 with 4 shooters that can rotate around. Our biggest foe has been either Miami (Bam) or Boston (Horford, excluding this year).
It was an objectively bad decision no matter how you rationalize it.
Running it back in 2022 was doomed soon as Lasry didn't let Horst pay PJ Tucker.
Look, I get why it's "dump on Horst" fest because he's pulling back the curtain a bit too much for Bucks fans like us to feel good about and while he does deserve some blame, let's not also forget Lasry's the same owner who decided to trade Brogdan because it was a "luxury" and meanwhile we might have very well done better in the bubble with Brogdan's scoring.
Maybe he wouldn't be the high efficiency/volume 3 point shooter but he would still be very useful in any team. He would have still hustled and defended.
Depends on what they have agreed with the team. Sometimes there’s a compensatory pick that needs to be given, other times they’ll just be allowed to go like the Raptors did with Chris Finch
Yep same situation almost too. Rosas wanted Finch and fought really hard but Glen knew Ryan would take less to fulfill his dream (cool story and Ryan was fun for a little while as a coach) but once he was gone Rosas took in Finchy on a random road trip
Whoever becomes the GM in Detroit will have a tough job. Team has young talent, but it lacks coaching and culture. They'll have $50-$60 million in cap space to sign some guys in the summer, but it's not a good free agent year, most of the good available available will resign with their current teams.
So how do you progress? Do you tank another year while accumulating assets by taking on bad contracts? Can you swing a trade for a star, Booker, Durant, Markannen, would Giannis leave the Bucks? Who'll be looking to shed payroll to avoid tax aprons?
It's going to be an exciting offseason for Detroit, I'd expect them to be very active, but whoever is the GM will get a lot of shit one way or another.
They can't tank anymore now that Cade will be getting his max extension. They need to start building an actual team now.
Guessing the chaos of the 2nd apron will make for an interesting offseason.
Cade is the only sure starter on any other team. Grimes and Fonte are good, possible starters or good bench guys on other teams. Ivey and Duren had glaring holes in their games this season and while I hope they both turn it around I don’t think anybody is lining up to give much up for them, and anybody trading for them would be another rebuilding team. I don’t think Stew is worth much especially on his contract. I love Ausar but he can’t shoot right now. You can point out anybody I missed but I don’t really see what we have to offer other teams outside of cap space. None of the teams flaming out in the playoffs will be interested in trading for anything we have to offer.
They're going to have to accept that some of these young players, while talented, are simply not set up for success in Detroit. You can't run a lineup with 1 guy who can shoot anymore. Everyone except Fontecchio, Evbuomwan, Stew, and Sasser is shooting 35% or worse, with Ausar and Duren being complete non-shooters. Make some trades, consolidate the lineup, and bring in some vets in free agency like Houston did this year who are capable of hitting open shots. It would also help if they got a capable center who isn't James Wiseman.
I know everyone wants to win now. But we can't and shouldn't undo the last 4 years. They should just bring in some vets, make some small trades. If a star is cheaper than expected, go for it, but they should try to build slow and give Cade some role players he can work and grow with.
That'll also put us in a decent lottery position next year with an even better draft. Unless there's an Orlando-like jump.
It’s not that bad at all. And the pistons shouldn’t trade for a star. The books are clean as hell, Cade and Duren are progressing, no need to make drastic moves other than the ho hum improvements to the roster at a reasonable cost.
people don't understand how bad he was this year. it's still not clear whether or not he was trying to get fired most of the year playing all bench lineups of the worst bench in the league.
Are we being fr? I get Doc is generally disliked but he’s had no Giannis, no Dame for 2 games and has been relying on role players, a hobbled Middleton with injuries to both ankles and a slow Brook Lopez against the fastest team in the entire league.
Oh my god, I knew Doc was an ownership hire.
Idiot googled best nba coaches and saw his name. They are not going to fire him because he’s their guy now. Now bring in a stooge GM that won’t argue with them. Ugly
This is pure speculation by Kevin O'Connor though. No idea what insider connections he has with the Bucks but it makes no sense to think the owners would overrule their GM on a decision like this. If AG and Doc were actually forced on Horst and not his choices, I don't blame him for leaving.
Honestly I kinda want him to take the job. Horst is an awful talent evaluator and he might be one of the worst GMs in the league at drafting. He’s made some solid moves, but his gambles lately have really hurt our future (like trading 5 2nd Round Picks for Jae Crowder).
If we want to re-tool and improve our team’s young talent, we need a change of scenery.
Think Giannis asks for a trade after this core falls apart? I mean it's not like he didn't deliver the Bucks a title, he gave everything to them. He spent his best years there.
Sidenote: I find that fans only get upset about their stars changing teams if they feel like they can still produce at a high level. Once they decline, they don't care if they go.
I believe he just signed a 3-year extension. If this happens before then, we’ll at least get a monumental return in that trade
I’d love to see Giannis retire a Buck but I wouldn’t hold it against him if he eventually leaves. He brought us a championship and I’ll build the statue myself if I have to.
I'll be a little salty because if the team hadn't catered to him we wouldn't be stuck with Doc for 3 years. And if Giannis does ask out, you better believe we get the full Doc Rivers show for 3 years - gotta remember, lots of Milwaukee casuals love him from his Marquette days and don't have anywhere near the knowledge of his coaching beyond the fact he got a chip with Boston
The Doc Rivers show with no expectations/talent is actually pretty good. It’s in the playoffs where he breaks, not the regular season, and if y’all lose Giannis that won’t matter is much
Doc doesn't coach Young rebuilds. He'd be out and have made a ton of money for a 1/2 season of "work." Not even didn't even have to do pre or post season. He'd just chill and wait for the next Vet contending team to call.
Pulling the old James Harden in Houston trick would be a pretty bad look.
Using your influence in the organization to get what you want and when the situation you helped create blows up you bail.
That being said, he won us a championship so he can really do whatever he wants.
> That being said, he won us a championship so he can really do whatever he wants
If he asks out now after the team completely catered to him, that def loses a decent amount of "great guy Giannis!" goodwill from Milwaukee fans. No one else will care tho and I for one will not be surprised if he flexes this. Would also mean the end of Dametime too, no way he'd be fine staying here if Giannis leaves.
It loses some goodwill but this team doesn't have any assets to help retool, which it needs to do, nad the only viable one is Middleton. He is good for 50 games a year and rolls his ankle every 5 games to sit 2. And if he can't warrant a good enough return then you look to Dame and Giannis.
> Would also mean the end of Dametime too, no way he'd be fine staying here if Giannis leaves.
It wouldn't make any sense for the Bucks to keep Dame after Giannis leaves. If Giannis leaves they're blowing up the entire roster, there's no reason to keep an aging star that might net you a few picks.
Loyalty really only goes one way - a star player has to have undying loyalty to the franchise that drafted them but the second they start to decline fans want them sold to the highest bidder.
>Now, why would Horst leave the Bucks for the league’s worst team?
He doesn't want to be caught holding the bag when the Bucks go over the cliff. Giannis and Dame are not working the way they thought. They have few assets left and not many more levers to pull. We are reaching a point where Giannis won't be judged for asking out. Given the current roster and assets, I would be surprised if Giannis is on the team in 2 years time.
Yep. I don't think people realize that the Bucks current core has 1-2 years left.
Here's a glimpse at the current contract situation:
* After next season Lopez is a free agent
* Middleton and Bobby have player options in 25-26 and are likely gone afterwards
* Dame has a player option in 26-27
* Giannis has a player option in 27-28
There's pretty much 0 chance Middleton, Lopez, or Dame get extension because they'll all be 35+ at the end of their contracts.
Dude can pack his bags. He isn’t that good of a GM. He actually fucked up massively with the Donte trade, the Jae trade, and Mirotic trade. All of those fucked us, but the first two mentioned really fucked us.
Ownership may have forced coaches on him, but he did put together the team. I am not a fan of the Lilliard trade for example and would love to know if ownership pushed him on that too. Don't get me wrong, Dame is an incredible talent, but the team identity changed from "strong defense" to "not really sure what we are".
OTOH, they also had to do something to appease Giannis and there were not many star options.
It's really easy to stand there and claim you had no part in the mistake on decisions that seemed like coin flips at the time. If horst ends up bailing, this is kinda a bad look for him.
It would be a smart move for him. He'd clearly get at least another five years if he goes to the Pistons. Shit is about to go badly in Milwaukee. I'm a Bucks fan. I don't see things going well in the next decade. We got a championship though. I'm in my 40s and I never thought I'd see them win it all.
Yep. Sold our future for the ‘ship. Some teams do that and don’t win. We at least got one before the wheels fell off.
Shoot man, Dirk Nowitzki got one ring. That was more memorable than the two rings Durant won with the Warriors. That Bucks win was incredible. Excellent defense all around.
Dirks was so special. It felt like they came out of no where and beat the heatles so bad he broke LeBron. To LeBron's credit he toughened up mentally and became a killer.
it was the same mavericks team they roll out every year, to early playoff exits. and they rolled it out again. lightning in a bottle.
And then LeBron finally brought Cleveland their Championship. Continuing with the theme of the thread here, that was more memorable than his wins with the Heat. Hell, my headcanon refuses to recognize those years and I consider Cleveland to be LeBron's first true Championship.
I will go to my grave believing Dirk should have two rings.
League decided Wade was next and gave him every free throw they possibly could.
His two best shots other than the miracle 2011 run was 06 and 07. Dirk was at his peak with his strongest supporting cast. Unfortunately Dwayne Wade broke his heart in 06 and he collapsed horrifically against the We Believe Warriors.
The NBA said "no" in 06. That wasn't all Wade.
I'd do the exact same thing. I just want the wizards to win a chip before I die
That title makes it all worth it.
Always worth it if you win a ring
Yup. Anyways. Bucks in 6.
Horst looking into the Bucks' future: "This ain't it, bro."
Nah, more like Horst's trying to salvage his NBA career before he's been made the scapegoat
so he wanted to make competent choices while Giannis and the ownership just wanted to deliver memes. Nick Nurse would’ve been a huge boost to this Bucks team
If he wants to make competent choices I dont think hes coming to the right place
I eagerly await you drafting another non-shooter with the 5th pick
But BPA! He's clearly the best guy we should pick even though he can't hit the broad side of a barn!
Pistons starting 5 next year: Cade, Ausar, Ausar clone #1, Ausar clone #2, Ausar clone #3
How are the Pistons gonna get Amen?
Duren slander
One of the flaws in Horst's resume had been his drafting too. And the DD for Ibaka and Crowder for 5 2nds also terrible.
He's only drafted 7 players (9 if you count the 2017 draft, but that was the week he was appointed GM, so I don't know how involved he was), and Donte was one of them. 1/7 really isn't that bad in the draft, but yeah, agree with your overall point, Horst isn't perfect.
Especially drafting when y'all were drafting. I don't know if he's the greatest choice but at least he knows what a team should look like this millennium.
I'm ready to take Knecht #1 overall at this point.
It's so funny that nobody in this draft can shoot a lick. It's a damn near guarantee that 1st pick is ours.
Knowing our team's luck, we'll end up getting it and it'll be another international center who disappoints/shouldn't have gone over a Hall of Famer picked right after
Prob wants control back or respect. Which is fair. Dude got Dame and tried to fix the coaching issue w/ Atkinson/Nurse
I mean, how could he do worse?
Just take Tobi please for the love of god b4 we re-sign him for half what he’s making now
He'd literally be the one making them
No he wouldnt
I am a meme enjoyer so I commend Giannis enabling this behavior.
I think Nurse has gotten a bit overrated there’s a reason players don’t want to play for him.
There’s not really a correlation between players wanting to play for a coach and how good the coach is For example, Thibs was voted as the overwhelming favourite for being the coach that players don’t want to play with, yet most people here would say he’s a damn good coach Nick Nurse has his issues (particularly the complaining) but I think most people would agree he’s still a great coach. Who knows, maybe Giannis is still petty about 2019 for some reason
Apparently Giannis spoke to both siakam and OG last summer and they both said they had issues with Nurse (but both liked griffin).
Almost like players should accept that they're bad at team building and that's why teams hire FO's staffed by people who have more qualifications than pretending to go to college for a year.
I can see both sides of it; if you’re Giannis you’re going to be working with the coach all day everyday so if they’re a complete psycho it’s reasonable to have opinions about that.
Totally, which is why it's on the FO to do what they think is right for the team. If they bring someone in who clashes with players and/or doesn't get results, that's a conversation! Players shouldn't have a say in hiring staff or acquiring players, though. They're too close to the situation and they don't understand the underlying theories behind building out an organization.
I think players should have a say, but the final decision should be made by the FO. It doesn't matter how good a certain coach is, if a productive relationship can't be built with them and the players, it's all for nothing. Even if the Raptors fixed all their roster issues, I doubt our team would live up to their potential because Nurse had lost the locker room. Bucks messed up by giving Giannis unilateral control. Not only did this result in a bad hire, but it also created a rift between Giannis and members of the FO.
bro you're reading too much with what little info we are given. how do you know giannis had unilateral control? for all we know he might've just said "yea i don't mind griffin, he may be good for us, i prefer him over nurse but do what you gotta do" when they hired him, and "i want to keep trying with griffin and see if things improve, but if you guys think we need to replace him then i have no problem with it" rift between giannis and the FO? where did you even get that from
Franchise players should *obviously* be consulted when bringing in a new coach. The reason you, and a lot of people, feel like it's a bad idea is because r/nba has no sense of nuance and every instance of '[Player] liked [coach]' gets turned into '[Player] forced team to hire [coach]'. Adrian Griffin made it to the list of finalists for the job. Jon Horst clearly believed he would be a good head coach. I know this place is thick as shit and has decided that any franchise player is a puppet master of every single personnel decision down to big boarding trade candidates but Giannis (and Khris) being asked for input on their head coach candidates and saying 'I prefer this guy' does not mean they overrode the FO or the process, it means they played their part of the process decided by the front office. If Horst did not think Griffin was a good coach then he was extremely dumb for putting him in the finalists, and dumber still for hiring him on apparently nothing more than a players say so - and I don't think Horst is dumb. I truly, truly don't understand at what point 'Giannis preferred Adrian Griffin' became as the other person replying put it 'Giannis has unilateral control over the coaching hire'. Like people just invent an idea and then say it's a bad idea. No shit giving a player unilateral control over the coaching hire is a bad idea, **that's why front offices would never do it**.
Star players have literally never chosen a good coach in the history of the NBA. I don't think you have any idea about the egos these people have. They want a coach that will do whatever they say.
Ty Lue is a counter-example. David Blatt was a solid coach but he didn’t mesh with LeBron. They fired Blatt and hired Lue because of pressure from LeBron and they won a championship because Lue out coached Stevens in the East that year.
It's like you literally didn't even read the comment you responded to. Star players **don't** choose the coach in these situations. Giannis was not out there gathering a list of candidates to interview and calling up front offices and scheduling zoom meetings. The front office did that, got to three names they liked, and like every front office does when they have a player as prolific as Giannis or as tenured and important as Khris, sensibly got their input as part of the process. Giannis did not 'choose the coach', he gave his preference out of a final list of candidates that Jon Horst organised, interviewed, and decided upon and importantly *asked for input on*. If Jon Horst did not think Adrian Griffin would be a good head coach, Giannis wouldn't even know his name.
Eh that's how you get guys leaving a job. I wouldn't put someone everyone hates into a managerial position.
[удалено]
I hear you but the difference is Lebron met Spoelstra there. Spoelstra had already been with the heat organization for over ten years. Hiring a coach your loyal star doesn't want is the ultimate F*ck you! Lol
funny, in my career the bosses I liked best were not always the bosses that got the most out of me. Something I remember now that I'm leading a team/org. Doesn't seem like the bucks are good enough to win it on talent and vibes alone. So a doc rivers "vibe" type coach aint gonna get you there.
The Nick Nurse we saw at the end of his tenure with the raps was in my eyes different than the Nick Nurse that led us to the title. All of the innovation was gone by the time he left. That would have played a factor with guys like FVV, Pascal and OG.
Having primarily veterans on the championship roster helped a lot. Lowry and Gasol are two of the highest IQ players to play their positions so whatever scheme Nurse wanted to implement, they were able to execute and communicate where everyone needed to be and they could adjust on the fly if things broke down. Nick and Pascal even got into it during the Tampa season when Pascal, from all interviews and clips, is shown to be a pretty laid back guy. Even in Nick's book, he has alluded to OG being unhappy because FVV gets to do what he wants on offense. Playing tough love with certain players, sticking to his schemes even when they have been scouted and not working. There were always cracks showing with Nurse but Toronto media/most fans looked the other way because he helped bring a championship.
Nurse is a great coach fuck all that nonsense We had no right to go 7 in the bubble with Celtics And his defensive schemes went beyond what that roster should be capable of afterwards too, we shouldn't have gone 6 with the Sixers in 2022 either
Should have asked Kawhi and Lowry instead who both love Nurse
Maybe. And we are flaming out in round 1. But he’s been such an upgrade to Doc.
Nick nurse can’t go out there and rebound
The only knock i have is that he hasn’t tried his athletic young backups at all. But yes, in the end Morey went for 1 year guys and vet min. The non min guys are all hurt or not living up to their contracts.
The thing with Nurse teams is that the man can’t accept a regular season loss so he’ll overplay his starters then be surprised when they’re burnt out in the playoffs
That's the same critique people have about Thibs, but the Knicks players don't seem burnt out at all. Even OG a former Nurse player and hater played 47 mins yesterday and looked arguably better at the end of the game than he did at the beginning. Some players can't function effectively playing such heavy mins and will burn out, but others want to be out there all the time. A guy as big and injury prone as Embiid shouldn't ever play more than 40 a game or he will get tired down the stretch, he's just too big. But belief in a coach, system and team goes a long way towards heavy minutes being a non issue for most players who aren't nearly 300 pounds and 7ft+
It's a young team 4 games into the playoffs. They still have plenty of time to burn out.
look better than last year overall despite these struggles. just didn’t have a lucky first-round matchup this time around or a couple games of ridiculous shot-making, been nothing but rock fights. the depth just can’t withstand New York’s physicality enough to allow Embiid to be fresh in the 4th quarter and Tobi is completely absent.
Yeah Nurse is also down 3-1 in the 1st round too. This year hasn’t been a great endorsement of him
Philly pre Embiid injury was a pretty big endorsement for Nurse, they lost Harden and still looked immense
That's true but he's way fucking better than Doc Rivers.
Idk man, I don’t think any of us are qualified to make a statement like that. Kawhi’s shot bounces slightly differently and we view Nurse’s Raptors tenure in a different light.
Aren't the Sixers are perfect showcase for this though? The team loses Doc and gains Nurse. Their offense immediately looked better despite losing a high caliber guard (Harden).
Well, they're down 1-3 in the first round right now... Maybe a little too early to say he's that much better
Not to mention somewhat healthy compared to Bucks losing both Giannis and Dame...
I just think how far a team goes in the playoffs is a poor indicator of their quality. Doc's Sixers teams had more talent (Harden) and would only pass the first round against dubious low-seeded Eastern teams (the Bridges Nets last year; and the greatest player Embiid has beaten is Siakim). Because of Embiid's injury, the team slipped down in seeding further than their talent would indicate. So they don't have an easy Eastern team to beat round one. In terms of skill level, New York vs Philly is more akin to a second round series, which is where the team's plateau seems to be anyways.
Maybe not. But I feel pretty comfortable with my opinion on Doc.
Big reasons were he actually called out players and challenged them. Players in today's league want guys like Doc Rivers and other player coaches. It's like Vogel, he's a solid coach but lost the locker rooms in LA and Phoenix. There was a report the other day he was heard screaming at his players through the doors and it went over the head of his stars and team.
The guy who gets memed relentlessly for throwing players under the bus is now someone who doesn’t call out players?
Believe it or not yeah, most players still love Doc. And Nurse not so much, no player wants to be ran into the ground the way Nurse does his guys
And the underlying of that is because 90%+ of players just view the NBA as a job. So of course they want the guy that won't annoy them or make them do extra work. Sad reality.
Pretty much and there's quite a few players mentioned by other players (not by name) they're not in the league chasing greatness, just the money and famous perks. I guess for alot of guys they spend a lot of time around team staff and don't want no stress at the job like regular people.
The sample size is ridiculously small LMAO he’s been head coach only for a couple years.
Nick Nurse is about to get bounced in the first round too. The idea that he'd come in here and fix everything doesn't seem very realistic. He's living off the title Kawhi won for him.
After Kawhi left that team won 53 games. 48 wins in 2021-2022. Those teams always defended well and he has coached up and developed tons of random role players and put them in positions to succeed. I think his track record stands for itself.
Umm, our players didn’t develop that well under Nurse, not nearly like they did under Casey. He kind of ignores players until they prove they can play his defensive scheme which is a taxing one
How come everyone who left Toronto always seems to do so much better where they go? Like they're better utilized? Put in better positions to succeed? I don't think he's a bad coach but he ain't a top coach in the league. Definitely overrated at least a bit
The Raptors don't have a star to take the pressure off other players. Just look at Jordan Poole on the Warriors. He got open shots all day because of Steph.
Or maybe Thibs is just one of the few coaches even better than Nurse
Lol Kawhi only carried the sixers series. The defensive scheme that nurse implemented was intelligent and highly effective
It's gotta be maddening to get hired in a leadership role in sports and then be constantly over ruled from all directions on your decisions. With a bonus of when things go wrong everyone looks at you and asks how you let it happen? It is funny watching players get their way with a team then things fall apart. Giannis isn't just some bum, he is already a first ballot HOF guy and a super smart dude off the court, but he got his way several times with the team and it is a disaster.
You’re overrating Nick Nurse lmfao. What makes you think he’s some kind of premier coach?
Kawhi Leonard choosing the roster Casey developed well
Isn't Nurse's team down 1-3 with both of his best players playing in the first round? Not really fairing better than Doc who is missing Giannis and now Dame. Not entirely sure Nurse is a "competent" choice.
I'm not sure what Embiid is doing out there should be considered playing. The man can barely move. He's not a fast pace player to begin with but it looks like he can't even run at all. How many points has he scored that weren't jump shots or free throws? He can't grab a board either
Nurse is also down 3-1 in round one with a healthy team and the reigning mvp. Lol.
reigning MVP like we all don't know he's injured
Knicks are missing a 2X all-nba player, and Robinson/Bojan missed last game. Injuries aren’t an excuse, on paper Philly even with an injured Embiid should be doing way better. Also Embiid didn’t look very injured when he dropped 50 like 2 nights ago
It’s the best of both worlds. An excuse when he shits the bed. And high praise for gutting it out walking back and forth to the free throw line.
Every year lol
but then he's stuck with Monty...
Is he though? That wasn’t his hire, and it’s not like coaches salaries go against the cap. Monty’s tenure has been so atrocious that Horst may be able to convince Gores to swallow his pride and rip that band-aid off
maybe not... but that'd be a significant amount for ownership to payoff.
Your point is valid, but to Gores I’d say this is what you get for bidding against yourself for a coach that repeatedly told you he’s not interested in coaching your team.
ha yeah sucks for Pistons fans... but not gonna blame Monty for getting an incredible paycheck.
Monty was straight up and said the money was too good to pass up. Gores simply wouldn’t take no for an answer.
Gores is like the third richest owner in the league and has a coke and hooker budget bigger than the salary cap. He can afford it
gores is one of the richest owners in the league
Thats the hope. The only hope
It's been reported that eating Monty's contract is of zero issue to Gores.
Just a minor reduction from the coke budget will cover it, no big deal.
I pray to the lord whoever it is cans the guy. Probably Weaver too but this seems like a pretty significant demotion for him anyway
Let the spinning begin, I guess. Did others draft like shit, and traded the one of the two good draftees players in a decade, Donte, for an expired bug of soup?
Donte was *supposed* to be traded for Bogdan, don't forget
Exactly this. Horst is gonna leave this team in a complete salary cap, assets and geriatric roster debacle.
at least we got Jae Crowder and lost another young player for FIVE SECOND ROUNDERS. we are kinda fucked
Pat and Grayson over Donte was bone headed. I understand there were concerns about his health but Donte had the best feel for the game, highest ceiling and played with heart.
He hasn't been able to find one playable wing for years. I understand the limited resources to work with but the league is run by wings and that has been a gaping hole on the roster for years.
Donte isn't Donte if he stays, same as Sacremento and Golden State.
True but probably never should've traded him for ibaka
Eh needed big depth (still do) and Grayson was taking his minutes. Ibaka sucked but on paper it wasn’t the wrong idea
Against who? We needed 3 and D players so badly... especially against Boston. Who did we need a big for that Giannis + Bobby couldn't guard assuming Brook is out? Maybe Denver if they make the finals? Sixers if somehow Embiid is ever healthy and makes it past the 2nd round? I keep seeing this silly take that we need "big depth" when some of our best lineups have been Giannis at the 5 with 4 shooters that can rotate around. Our biggest foe has been either Miami (Bam) or Boston (Horford, excluding this year). It was an objectively bad decision no matter how you rationalize it.
Running it back in 2022 was doomed soon as Lasry didn't let Horst pay PJ Tucker. Look, I get why it's "dump on Horst" fest because he's pulling back the curtain a bit too much for Bucks fans like us to feel good about and while he does deserve some blame, let's not also forget Lasry's the same owner who decided to trade Brogdan because it was a "luxury" and meanwhile we might have very well done better in the bubble with Brogdan's scoring.
Maybe he wouldn't be the high efficiency/volume 3 point shooter but he would still be very useful in any team. He would have still hustled and defended.
So assistant coaches can change teams mid season? TIL.
Depends on what they have agreed with the team. Sometimes there’s a compensatory pick that needs to be given, other times they’ll just be allowed to go like the Raptors did with Chris Finch
Yep same situation almost too. Rosas wanted Finch and fought really hard but Glen knew Ryan would take less to fulfill his dream (cool story and Ryan was fun for a little while as a coach) but once he was gone Rosas took in Finchy on a random road trip
If the other team allows it yes. Which they all do because you want to attract top assistants.
Is horst even good. He drafts like shit and trades almost exclusively for washed up oldheads
Seriously he's been rough since the ring
Whoever becomes the GM in Detroit will have a tough job. Team has young talent, but it lacks coaching and culture. They'll have $50-$60 million in cap space to sign some guys in the summer, but it's not a good free agent year, most of the good available available will resign with their current teams. So how do you progress? Do you tank another year while accumulating assets by taking on bad contracts? Can you swing a trade for a star, Booker, Durant, Markannen, would Giannis leave the Bucks? Who'll be looking to shed payroll to avoid tax aprons? It's going to be an exciting offseason for Detroit, I'd expect them to be very active, but whoever is the GM will get a lot of shit one way or another.
You sign Tobias to a max and sit back and enjoy a victory cigar.
Sign Drummond and Greg Monroe too. The team could go toe to toe with the 12 Bobcats
Pistons trading for Kevin Durant would be fucking hilarious. Dude would probably retire
They can't tank anymore now that Cade will be getting his max extension. They need to start building an actual team now. Guessing the chaos of the 2nd apron will make for an interesting offseason.
Hopefully. We unfortunately don’t have much value to actually trade for anybody right now
We have plenty of value, just not obvious when a bunch of mismatched pieces are playing together.
Cade is the only sure starter on any other team. Grimes and Fonte are good, possible starters or good bench guys on other teams. Ivey and Duren had glaring holes in their games this season and while I hope they both turn it around I don’t think anybody is lining up to give much up for them, and anybody trading for them would be another rebuilding team. I don’t think Stew is worth much especially on his contract. I love Ausar but he can’t shoot right now. You can point out anybody I missed but I don’t really see what we have to offer other teams outside of cap space. None of the teams flaming out in the playoffs will be interested in trading for anything we have to offer.
They're going to have to accept that some of these young players, while talented, are simply not set up for success in Detroit. You can't run a lineup with 1 guy who can shoot anymore. Everyone except Fontecchio, Evbuomwan, Stew, and Sasser is shooting 35% or worse, with Ausar and Duren being complete non-shooters. Make some trades, consolidate the lineup, and bring in some vets in free agency like Houston did this year who are capable of hitting open shots. It would also help if they got a capable center who isn't James Wiseman.
If Giannis asks to be traded OKC will have the best package by far. If I were him though I'd ask to stay in the East lol.
I know everyone wants to win now. But we can't and shouldn't undo the last 4 years. They should just bring in some vets, make some small trades. If a star is cheaper than expected, go for it, but they should try to build slow and give Cade some role players he can work and grow with. That'll also put us in a decent lottery position next year with an even better draft. Unless there's an Orlando-like jump.
It’s not that bad at all. And the pistons shouldn’t trade for a star. The books are clean as hell, Cade and Duren are progressing, no need to make drastic moves other than the ho hum improvements to the roster at a reasonable cost.
I think getting rid of Monty will be key imo
people don't understand how bad he was this year. it's still not clear whether or not he was trying to get fired most of the year playing all bench lineups of the worst bench in the league.
I think Monty sucks but I also think he was intentionally trying to get fired
Legit the only man in the world who thought Killian Hayes should be starting over Jaden Ivey.
Yeah Nick Nurse would never be down 3-1 in the first round
Are we being fr? I get Doc is generally disliked but he’s had no Giannis, no Dame for 2 games and has been relying on role players, a hobbled Middleton with injuries to both ankles and a slow Brook Lopez against the fastest team in the entire league.
My guy - Nick Nurse IS down 3-1 currently. I actually think Doc has coached this series pretty well.
Ahahaha my bad
I’ve been critical of Doc since we hired him, but he’s actually doing a great job of coaching this series.
Oh my god, I knew Doc was an ownership hire. Idiot googled best nba coaches and saw his name. They are not going to fire him because he’s their guy now. Now bring in a stooge GM that won’t argue with them. Ugly
This is one of those things that make me question why I’m a fan
Jimmy Haslam
We have that idiot Browns owner now too.
Jimmy Haslam. From the people who brought you the Desean Watson debacle.
This is pure speculation by Kevin O'Connor though. No idea what insider connections he has with the Bucks but it makes no sense to think the owners would overrule their GM on a decision like this. If AG and Doc were actually forced on Horst and not his choices, I don't blame him for leaving.
Wild speculation from KOC? That doesn’t sound like him..
Doc’s been fine, it’s just the Bucks got bit by the injury bug. Is he an elite coach? No, but he’s not a bottom barrel guy either.
Honestly I kinda want him to take the job. Horst is an awful talent evaluator and he might be one of the worst GMs in the league at drafting. He’s made some solid moves, but his gambles lately have really hurt our future (like trading 5 2nd Round Picks for Jae Crowder). If we want to re-tool and improve our team’s young talent, we need a change of scenery.
He's not perfect but the guy was in win now mode. It's rare to have a championship team w/ raw, promising talent
He was scared Giannis would leave. He had to take risks to win now.
I never really thought that assistant coaches could be hired mid-season but it makes sense now that I think about it.
Pretty sure Finch got hired out of Toronto by Minnesota mid-season, if I’m remembering correctly.
You know who's one of the best coaches in the NBA? Mike Budenholzer is. Bucks are paying him but not benefiting from his coaching this year.
Best regular season coach in the league. Not a good post season coach.
This would be such a needed W for us.
Not sure a GM that will have to hit on his picks is a good fit. Horst hasn't even been able to find limited role players.
Think Giannis asks for a trade after this core falls apart? I mean it's not like he didn't deliver the Bucks a title, he gave everything to them. He spent his best years there. Sidenote: I find that fans only get upset about their stars changing teams if they feel like they can still produce at a high level. Once they decline, they don't care if they go.
I believe he just signed a 3-year extension. If this happens before then, we’ll at least get a monumental return in that trade I’d love to see Giannis retire a Buck but I wouldn’t hold it against him if he eventually leaves. He brought us a championship and I’ll build the statue myself if I have to.
I'll be a little salty because if the team hadn't catered to him we wouldn't be stuck with Doc for 3 years. And if Giannis does ask out, you better believe we get the full Doc Rivers show for 3 years - gotta remember, lots of Milwaukee casuals love him from his Marquette days and don't have anywhere near the knowledge of his coaching beyond the fact he got a chip with Boston
The Doc Rivers show with no expectations/talent is actually pretty good. It’s in the playoffs where he breaks, not the regular season, and if y’all lose Giannis that won’t matter is much
We're not stuck with Doc if Giannis asks out. That's a complete blow it up rebuild, Doc will retire.
I'd bet you on that - no way ownership or Doc leaving after just signing a 3 year deal
Doc doesn't coach Young rebuilds. He'd be out and have made a ton of money for a 1/2 season of "work." Not even didn't even have to do pre or post season. He'd just chill and wait for the next Vet contending team to call.
You think Doc's going to quit and lose out on his contract payout?? Lol, lmao even
Pulling the old James Harden in Houston trick would be a pretty bad look. Using your influence in the organization to get what you want and when the situation you helped create blows up you bail. That being said, he won us a championship so he can really do whatever he wants.
> That being said, he won us a championship so he can really do whatever he wants If he asks out now after the team completely catered to him, that def loses a decent amount of "great guy Giannis!" goodwill from Milwaukee fans. No one else will care tho and I for one will not be surprised if he flexes this. Would also mean the end of Dametime too, no way he'd be fine staying here if Giannis leaves.
It loses some goodwill but this team doesn't have any assets to help retool, which it needs to do, nad the only viable one is Middleton. He is good for 50 games a year and rolls his ankle every 5 games to sit 2. And if he can't warrant a good enough return then you look to Dame and Giannis.
There is no way Middleton fetches a younger player that can bring anything close to what he can.
I don't disagree, I just think he's the best asset the Bucks have they'd be willing to shop
> Would also mean the end of Dametime too, no way he'd be fine staying here if Giannis leaves. It wouldn't make any sense for the Bucks to keep Dame after Giannis leaves. If Giannis leaves they're blowing up the entire roster, there's no reason to keep an aging star that might net you a few picks.
Harden was throwing balls at his teammates and came to training camp 30 pounds overweight in order to get traded, Giannis would never do that
Loyalty really only goes one way - a star player has to have undying loyalty to the franchise that drafted them but the second they start to decline fans want them sold to the highest bidder.
I want the best of both worlds. Giannis on OKC, I'll become a fan of 2 teams.
I think his trade request will be next offseason after Glenn leads another masterclass of a playoff disaster
Great. 0 value for Dame Middleton Lopez next off-season and probably 25% less for Giannis. Fml just blow it up now.
The good news is that Giannis is not going to ask for a trade despite this sub talking about it incessantly for the past 8 years.
Atkinson getting done so dirty the last half decade.
Really though free my boy Kenny, he had that Nets squad COOKING then got thrown to the dust for no reason
>Now, why would Horst leave the Bucks for the league’s worst team? He doesn't want to be caught holding the bag when the Bucks go over the cliff. Giannis and Dame are not working the way they thought. They have few assets left and not many more levers to pull. We are reaching a point where Giannis won't be judged for asking out. Given the current roster and assets, I would be surprised if Giannis is on the team in 2 years time.
Yep. I don't think people realize that the Bucks current core has 1-2 years left. Here's a glimpse at the current contract situation: * After next season Lopez is a free agent * Middleton and Bobby have player options in 25-26 and are likely gone afterwards * Dame has a player option in 26-27 * Giannis has a player option in 27-28 There's pretty much 0 chance Middleton, Lopez, or Dame get extension because they'll all be 35+ at the end of their contracts.
We call this the 'Bob Myers maneuver'
Giannis trying to play LeGM destroying the Bucks in real time
Horst said directly that Giannis had no input for the head coaching choice I don’t know why we’re still perpetuating this narrative.
Dude can pack his bags. He isn’t that good of a GM. He actually fucked up massively with the Donte trade, the Jae trade, and Mirotic trade. All of those fucked us, but the first two mentioned really fucked us.
Dang Horst knows his stuff, bucks are kinda falling apart. Think they’ve overextended themselves appeasing Giannis which I get he is that franchise
what went on with Bucks this season needs to be studied honestly.
Horst just thinking like me fr.
Feels like spin coming from Horst
My friend why the fuck did you even have AG in the final 3 to choose from you fraud?
Ownership may have forced coaches on him, but he did put together the team. I am not a fan of the Lilliard trade for example and would love to know if ownership pushed him on that too. Don't get me wrong, Dame is an incredible talent, but the team identity changed from "strong defense" to "not really sure what we are". OTOH, they also had to do something to appease Giannis and there were not many star options.
It's really easy to stand there and claim you had no part in the mistake on decisions that seemed like coin flips at the time. If horst ends up bailing, this is kinda a bad look for him.