Why doesn't everyone just use their multitime defensive player of the year center along with their other Allstar center and 6th man of the year center?
Then use your 6’7 and 6’6 wings to lockdown Jamal Murray and have a solid/smart defensive guard like Conley to make the right switches and not leave MPJ/KCP open.
I do think the Nuggets could desperately use another shot creator on offense, but there’s only a single team in the league that can actually shut the offense for 4 of 7 games.
Jaden McDaniels was on MPJ the majority of Games 5-7 while Ant and NAW was taking Murray. Even if a shooter gets open, disrupting the flow of an offense and making the shooter rush into a shot or not be in rhythm affects shotmaking. It's not a coincidence MPJ had a worse series against the Wolves than the Lakers and it's not only just missing open shots.
I mean Gobert and Conley were just sitting there and anyone other team could have snagged them. They were underrated by everyone except TC and the wolves. Same for Naz as he went undrafted
Yeah the Lakers played the same scheme in 2020 to great success. Use Dwight and McGee to slow down Jokic. Have AD roam the paint. And bother them with long intelligent defenders.
The problem this year was the Lakers had no real big to defend Jokic so AD had to do it. And Rui is dumber than a box of rocks and consistently lost MPJ. Like everyone knows exactly what MPJ is gonna do. He lives at the three point line and pretty much nowhere else. And yet consistently Rui was out of position. If they didn’t let MPJ get wide open shots all series the Lakers probably take it.
Lakers don't have the money now but they should really look to add a big man.
The option to go AD at the 4 was just a different look and would throw teams off. Instead pelinka and ham went the other direction and throw those trash LeBron at the 5 lineups.
12 years ago, putting Bosh at the 5 redeemed the Heat and Spoelstra is a genius for inventing small ball. The narrative in LA was AD had to play the 5 to unlock the offense even though he didn't want to.
Is Denver just super unique because Jokic is the goat passing 5 or are bigs becoming more necessary again?
AD is very obviously a 5 offensively. Watch how he plays. Not only does he play from 15 and in, he also basically bullies everyone that he can bully.
Defensively, it would be really nice to let AD play the 4 sometimes (even if it means LeBron plays the 3, which is not ideal, but so be it) but you **need** spacing on offense. A guy like Myles Turner or Brook Lopez would be ideal, maybe more attainable would be someone like Olynyk.
Before anyone says it, in 2020 AD was a better shooter from the perimeter, but also our offense was NOT good and relied on the offensive brilliance of athletically prime AD and 35-y/o LeBron. And even then our best lineups had AD at the 5.
Jokic is a hard matchup for the Lakers because AD guarding Jokic neutralizes him as an off ball defensive terror. If we could have AD guard Jokic and a clone of AD guard Gordon, it would not be a problem.
Problem is it’s such a huge offensive liability. AD is not as good of a three point shooter as KAT, and finding a shooting big who can guard Jokic one on one would be impossible. I think they do regret not going after Myles Turner harder.
Trade Rui/DLO and some pieces for a serviceable big that can play 20-25 minutes a game.
Rui is the most expendable piece He doesn't fit in the offense and needs to be fed the ball to be effective. And if he's not on, his defense doesn't make up for it.
DLO is another one.. I think everything about him fits in well except for his physical skillset. As hard as he tries, he lays stinkers when the game is tense in the playoffs. He had a few good games, but most of his playoff performances were stinkers.
Yeah after game 1 I realized how mean I was to shit on Brad Beal after the first round. Swapping back and forth from being defended by McDaniels to Ant is enough to send even the best players to the shadow realm, let alone a guy that is pretty much a shooter
Rui's defensive IQ isn't great but part of his issue isn't really IQ so much as he's not good at chasing off ball shooters. He basically got benched against the Warriors last year for that reason. Like he just lacks the lateral movement as well as screen navigation.
In 2020 it's also notable that while Jerami Grant played in a broadly similar role to Aaron Gordon, he's not as smart as a cutter and just as good as a finisher as AG is, along with AG just having better additional strengths in rebounding and passing compared to Grant.
Crazy thing is KAT was known to be a defensive liability for most of his career, but the most effective coverage seemed to be KAT guarding Jokic with Gobert cheating off one of the role players. KAT is one of the few players who has the beef to guard Jokic in the post too.
But yeah, no one else has the personnel to replicate this. They even have multiple elite perimeter defenders.
The reality is center defense is less about your 1v1 matchup and more about your ability to play help against pnr, drives, and cuts while also recovering well enough to your man to prevent a dunk.
Genuine question, do you think the resting Jokic once you get up 20 is just a hindsight take? I feel like Minnesota immediately started weathering the storm once it got to 20 and there wasn’t a clear time to rest him.
They should have probably rested him more than a minute in the 1st half, but it’s all hindsight. He was gassed no doubt, but Minn was in the middle of a big run at the time he’d normally sit in the 3rd so it makes sense to leave him in there.
In general I think Jokic said “trust me,” and overestimated himself a little bit. Malone trusted him, he should probably make him sit next time. None of that was horrible decision making by any means though.
I think it's a hindsight take. Jokic shot like 50 3s that rimmed out, a couple more of those go in and maybe nuggets squeak the win out and everyone's talking about how amazing it was that Michael Malone trusted jokic to stay in the whole game.
Yeah i agree. And resting when up 20 wasn't realistic anyway since it was like 2 minutes into 3rd and no one would sit a star at that time. I think maybe they could have realised this was going to the wire when it was around 8 but even then benching a star in the middle of a big run was too big of a call.
The problem is that even though Joker being gassed lead to those missed 3s of his, they weren't egregious misses -- most of them rimmed out. Had a just a couple of those gone in, you guys most likely would have won the game and the discourse over Malone keeping him in would be very different.
But a big question is why did everyone else on the team also start chucking 3s, when that's what got them blown out in Game 6
It’s a bit crazy, I don’t know any other nba star have to play into such a nightmare rotation at the position across from them, and still play really damn well (would have been dominant if the 3’s were falling lol)
well, according to everyone here the wolves were bidding against nobody for Gobert, so every team could have just traded for this multitime defensive player of the year center
It's crazy a year ago how hard everyone on here was shitting on the wolves for "overpaying" and how they fucked their future up
Now everyone is shameless with the glazing lol this sub is a cesspool
not everyone (in-fact, maybe only the wolves) really have the personnel to defend Joker like this, and even then it took a shallow roster and bad shooting to really beat them
so what I'm saying is, sure, it's a good scheme, but you also need a perfect roster to execute it and even then you still need some luck. so I think the rest of the league can try this but good luck to them if they think they've solved jokic
I mean most people had Timberwolves as Nuggets biggest threat before they faced off, most people forget that basketball is at the end of the day a game of matchups and it almost seems like the Wolves are tailor made to beat the Nuggets even if they arent the best team in the league
This is the same as the "Just shoot more 3s" formula every team tried to use 2015-2020. Like sure, 3s are worth more than 2s. But it's only the path to a dynasty when you have by far the greatest shooter of all time with another top 3/4 shooter of all time in their primes on the same team.
Also 2 of which can shoot so you’re not sacrificing floor spacing at all lol. KAT is literally one of the best shooting bigs ever and Naz is one of the better shooting centers in the league.
Minnesota was basically constructed to beat Denver and people are wondering why nobody else could do it lol.
Jokić is arguably the best passer ever.
Throwing two bigs at him just means that he can easily find the open man for an open shot.
Minnesota nullifies this by having very good perimeter defenders to swarm and disrupt Murray and MPJ.
It’s arguably a different Jokic and different team though. Just barely, but pre-mvp. He’s a much better player now than he was 4 years ago. The team also didn’t have KCP or AG and MPJ was really young.
I think it’s fairly accurate to say “defending Denver” is fairly different now than it was in 2020. The Lakers were more hack Jokic and make his life miserable where now it’s like clog the paint to stop Jokic/AG and stay home on everyone else.
Yeah, the Bucks managed to defend the Nuggets/Jokic pretty well in their Feb matchup this year, winning 112-97. Brook + Giannis is a pretty good combo, with Brook defending the rim from Gordon and Jokic and Giannis being able to follow around and annoy Jokic. Gave me a lot of hope for the new "Doc Rivers defensive scheme". That didn't work out so well in the end...
Don't forget the long athletic bois in the wings - McDaniels, NAW, and Ant. They are long but at the same time they don't get screened so easily. And if they do get beat/screened, they're athletic enough to recover!
The Wolves are a good example of a perfect match in personnel and defensive scheme.
Mavs with Lively/Gafford as the rim protector + Kleber to handle Joker were doing quite well as well. Of course, that wouldn't have worked this upcoming series with Kleber injured for at least the start of it
I’m an admitted casual fan in my estimation, but rim-protecting backup bigs are like the cheapest role players out there right?
It seems like there’s always half a dozen 6’10 or taller dudes that can protect the rim and not much else that can be had for a vet minimum.
Lakers don't need a rim protector though, they need someone who can hold up against Jokic's post and face up game well enough to let AD play the 5 and protect the paint, they need an Aaron Gordon. That level of strength and agility is going to cost more than some stiff who can stand by the rim and be tall for 15-20 minutes a night.
This is the really answer.
The way to beat Denver has always been shut down Jokic’s help.
Minnesota made it so Jokic and Murray help only scored 21 points together and they won when Murray got tired and Jokic settled because of the difficulty of getting to their normal shots.
The way to beat Minny is to stop their mediocre offense and play perfect offensive basketball, which Denver did games 3-5 and most of game 7. They just faltered when Jokic and Murray’s legs got tired.
>The way to beat Minny is to stop their mediocre offense and play perfect offensive basketball, which Denver did games 3-5 and most of game 7. They just faltered when Jokic and Murray’s legs got tired.
Which is why they need to improve their bench to be competent enough give them just a short 5 to 6 min break in these type of games.
MPJ went from averaging 23 on great efficiency in the first round to 7 on terrible efficiency. dame and cj have proven you cant win in the playoffs with no perimeter defense no matter how good the rest of the squad is
> dame and cj have proven you cant win in the playoffs with no perimeter defense no matter how good the rest of the squad is
Excuse me lol. No matter how good the rest of the squad is? You mean Mo Harkless and Aminu?
That was always the subtly context when the crazy free throw gap comes up.
Lakers don't foul bc the rest of the defense outside of AD is so bad they simply aren't in position to do so.
That was their problem ever since they got Russ, and lost Kuzma, KCP and Isaiah Jackson (whom they just drafted, but in hindsight he turned out to be playoff rotation worthy player)
In that one single trade they destroyed their team and basically lost them a season and half, who knows where they would have been with both KCP and Kuzma. It was also super strange to stray away from a team that usually works with LeBron, it's like he's aware he can't create that well with the ball anymore but still a terrible decision
They saw after the championship run and subsequent 2021 playoff run that they needed a real number 1 ball handler and gambled on Russ. It didn’t work because Russ ended up not being good enough either, but the team was going to be screwed anyway if they stood pat and let LeBron try to outdo guys like Luka, Jokic, Steph, CP3/Booker, Morant, etc as a lead ball handler over the course of those next couple seasons.
Lol yeah like no shit it didn’t have the same effect for the Lakers cause AD had to do it by himself. It took 3 mfs to defend 1 dude on the Nuggets for the Wolves to win in 7
I remember after the first time MIN did it against Jokic last year, one of the MIN beat writers mentioned that UTA had defended KAT this way in a previous matchup by having Bojan guard KAT and having Rudy roam.
Pretty sure the Warriors did this too. Draymond on Jokic and Looney near the rim which I think is what Draymond was hinting at the other day on nba on tnt
Boston as well.
We were the best Jokic defending team in the league. Pretty much every game we either stopped his scoring or his playmaking.
Al Horford, Rob Williams and Grant Williams used to be the best Jokic defending core in the league.
And our defence in general used to be heavily focused on having Al Horford play an on-ball role with Rob Williams in that weak-side shot blocking role.
Grant Williams' "Batman" nickname also came from a dominant defensive performance on "the Joker".
Although since losing 2/3 of that defensive rotation and the 3rd getting older, we've started to really struggle on Jokic.
This is a homer take, but can other teams really mimic what the T-Wolves defense does? They were the best defense in the league all year. It feels like a "draw the rest of the owl" situation.
All you need is a 4xDPOY rim protector, another big to put on Jokic, and elite defenders at every position...easy.
My least favorite of this is the Nuggest are definitely having the "should they avoid the Wolves" conversation around next year's seeding in the playoffs
"avoiding the wolves" is so ridiculous, it's not like we swept the nuggets we had to come back down 20 in a game 7. A rematch would be plenty winnable from either side
I mean it's definitely not a dream matchup but intentionally losing games to avoid the wolves is silly and a losers mentality that the nuggets don't and shouldn't have. I hope next year brings us another entertaining series between 2 NBA champions 😌
Rudy and Finch are both a big part of it.
I think Ant is too. When you see your team leader taking one on one defensive matchups as personally as he does on a regular basis it has a real domino effect all the way down the roster.
Yeah Naz said he didn't like defense before but Rudy's passion for it was contagious and Rudy helped him see how fun it is. Naz says he gets a rush from defending now :')
In theory yes, but the offensive spacing will be horrendous unless Mobley keeps improving the 3 ball. Cleveland’s bigs just aren’t as talented as Minny’s
which should be expected
JA is barely a year older than Naz Reid and Mobley is still only 22
Mobley’s FT% and 3P% have both increased substantially and his jumper is so much smoother now. he doesn’t have anymore hitch and it’s helped out so much
I agree 100%, I would love to hang onto them both but it seems like that ship has sailed. I do have immense confidence in Mobley to become an elite player, so if the front office is going to keep one, I'd pick Mobley every time. All love to JA though, he's great.
Also great username, just dug out an old Cavs sign I got signed by Shumpert during the 15-16 season!
First, I want to give the Timberwolves props. You guys fought hard, had some bad calls go against you, and you guys rebounded from a 20 point deficit to win. Your team played well.
That said, Denver was worn out. You could see that in the Lakers series. They were running hard the first half of game 7, but were gassed in the second half. There were also injury issues on both sides.
Also, your coach made good adjustments and gave key players breaks. Denver doesn’t have a backup center so that forces playing Jokic too much, which gassed him at the end.
Winning a championship also led to players leaving for bigger contracts. So the debt of last year was greatly reduced.
I think the Wolves are in a good position, but time will tell how things work out. A new owner might royally screw up the team. They might want a player the GM doesn’t and then there goes the team.
Yeah I think that reinforces my point. If the T-Wolves and Nuggets meet up next year I still wouldn't be in any way confident the Wolves would win it. They got through by the skin of their teeth this year and they are probably one of the best defensive teams of the last 5-10 years and basically everything has been perfect for them (health, chemistry, coaching, etc.). There's no guarantee even the Wolves can capture that magic again, let alone another team replicating the exact conditions. A whole lot of things lined up for the Wolves this year and even then they had to be damn near perfect and even then barely squeaked by.
My point is I don't think anyone ought to panic about the Nuggets right now. Even if they took this same exact team back next year they have a good chance to go deep again. It's not like the Timberwolves exposed a soft spot, they just executed defensively extremely well and additionally had some luck go their way.
They rarely play, but the Bucks tend to do a pretty good job on Denver with Brook and Giannis. They held Jokic and Gordon down pretty well in the 2 matchups this year. Murray always kills them though, even when Jrue played.
I don't think anyone can. The Wolves are basically made in a lab for being the absolute best matchup you could reasonably get against the Nuggets. Main off the dribble scoring option being a hyper athletic guard means you can thrive on Murray, him being a tank helps with KCP, and him being ridiculously fast means you can't easily put Gordon on him like you could against a Tatum or Luka. Having 2 mobile and decently to very strong starting 7 footers means you can guard Jokic better than basically everyone else, plus a small balm center than can go insane for some minutes off the bench and tire Jokic out even more. Ant can guard Murray very well and not the other way around. You basically needed MPJ to hit shots, and he didn't.
It's a bit of a reductionist overview, and it makes it sound like the Wolves should've been favored, and I don't think it was reasonable to expect that. But if you jist look at it on paper, the Wolves are almost exactly what you would want for a team to take down the Nuggets, plus most of the Wolves weaknesses (which aren't many) were such that the Nuggets weren't the ideal team to captalize on them.
Tim Connelly literally built both teams. Minnesota threw millions at him because no one knew the Nuggets strengths and weaknesses like him. Just a crazy storyline! This will be a rivalry for the next era.
Hartenstein was so impressive. When Mitch went down I was sure you were done but you kept cooking for a few more games until OG went down too. I had no idea Hartenstein could pass that well.
That's definitely true, but part of the reason the Wolves' combinations are so good is that KAT and Naz Reid both space the floor too. OG is a capable shooter obviously, and Hartenstein has a nice midrange game, but altogether they're not the offensive threat the Wolves have in their bigs.
You guys remind me of the 22 Celtics, who I think could’ve done a similar sort of thing against the Nuggets with the Rob Williams/Horford double big lineup. This year they could still roll out something kind of similar with a Porzingus/Horford lineup but it would be somewhat lesser version defensively.
Because MPJ decided he wanna built a brick house against the big bad Wolves. Man had open shots and missed a lot of them, which could have changed the game if he even made one of them during the Wolves comeback.
They missed a lot of open shots because these shots didn't come from rhythm. There is a reason why teams' offensive efficiency in every area including open shots drop when the opposing team hustle their ass off. Both teams got really tired (which also made Minnesota less efficient too)
Yeah this. Ant wasn't firing in game 7 because the Nuggets focused on taking him out of rhythm (he got some of it back in Q4). Unfortunately for the Nuggets, that left KAT with mismatches, and Conley and Rudy with opportunities to fill the void.
Yeah, the wolves offense has been around league average though, so playing a team with a top end offense and a top 10 defense was a question of “can the offense actually put it together.”
Yeah. All you need is the best shooter of all time, a couple other elite 3-point shooters, and also a great defense. Why doesn't every team just do that, are they stupid?
Might be an equally homer take but the Magic might. Small sample size but we went 2-0 against the Nuggets, guys like Wendell and Goga (if we keep him) are strong enough to not be traffic cones for Jokic and then the rest of the team is so long it makes it incredibly hard to pass and Suggs will do as well as you can to cut off most of the perimeter creation they have with Murray
I’m a magic fan but it’s honestly a reasonable take imo. Dell isn’t the greatest defender but he is a decent floor spacing big, Moe is a decent offensive big who can play 4&5, Goga is a ‘Great Value’ Rudy, Paolo is a 6’10 250lb big who can slide to the 3, Franz is a 6’10 3/2, and JI is also pretty long.
Yeah, it’s silly and shows where Jokic is in the stratosphere of players that talk is like this.
Reminds me of talks of LeBron stoppers and how teams would talk about shaq and Kobe lol
Nah, it's like when the Raptors guarded Giannis well and people were saying something similar ignoring the fact that very few teams had the defensive personnel that team had.
There isn't a single team in the NBA that can replicate what the Wolves did on Jokic.
It's a waste to put your best rim protector on Jokic bc he's gonna cook them no matter who it is.
Idk why ppl are just not figuring out letting the MVP go 1 on 1 is a bad idea?
Nobody can do it to the level the T-Wolves can (and it still took a 7 game series to put Jokic away) but the Thunder strategy was to limit Jokic 1 on 1 in the post and collapse the paint on him. They were 3-1 against the Nuggets in the regular season.
> This is a homer take, but can other teams really mimic what the T-Wolves defense does?
No, yall have 2 star centers and one of the best role players off the bench who also happens to be a center.
Those games were all wars, even last years playoff games vs LAL. Denver just always hit the big shot and did a great job of making someone other than Lebron beat them late
Lakers scheme was actually pretty decent I thought, the issue is that their personnel is just nowhere near Minnesota’s. Even though AD is as good as Gobert on defense, Rui and DLo are horrible screen navigators and that left MPJ wide open 3 after wide open 3. Reaves tries but Murray can go by him whenever he wants.
And then LeBron at the 4 is basically 40 and his rebounding vs Denver’s size was too tall of a task. Obviously him getting back in transition and roaring onto shooters is inconsistent at best. No coach in NBA history can scheming them into shutting down Denver
Did you even watch the series because Murray was terrible 90% of it. Personal wasn’t the difference in that series, it was coaching and execution down the stretch
Just coping man. Ham made mistakes for sure but are you seriously telling me that the personnel of Bron-Rui-Reaves-DLo defense compared to an Ant-NAW-McDaniels-Reid defense wasn’t the difference
People overly index on the roamer. I think the real key is both the roamer and the pf. It doesn't work with Rui Hachimura. AD's arguably the best roamer in the league, and it doesn't work.
The other big has to be able to guard Jokic to some degree. Most teams haven't been able to as the league shifted to putting SFs at the 4. Now bigger basketball is coming back and we're seeing more traditional 4s again. Even just specific guys like a washed PJ Tucker had success last year because while he's a SF size he's so specialized in regards to his post defense.
So maybe if we see more big man duos like the Wolves. Although I'm doubtful the centers won't keep getting skinnier.
Yeah, you need someone stout enough to hold up to Jokic at least to a degree.
Simply put, there are like 4 ways Jokic can score on you in the post: going around you toward the hoop, going around you away from the hoop, going “through” you by backing you down, or falling away from the defender with a fade-away. The roamer can shut off one side (usually the side toward the basket). If the primary can stop Jokic from going “through”, it largely just leaves the two least efficient ways for him to score (usually spinning away from the basket and using his flips or hooks or stepping back for his fadeaway). He can still score that way, but tough spinning hooks or flips with his body going away from the basket are probably only 50% for Jokic (which is still insane).
KAT being strong enough to prevent Jokic from simply burying him under the hoop was GIANT for the Wolves’ ability to slow him down. It also helps keep the roamer roaming — if the primary defender gets buried, the roamer needs to shade over to Jokic, which is when he can toss those lobs to Gordon.
Rui is pretty strong. Of course Jokic is stronger, but I think a lot of the issue is also that he's just shorter than Jokic. KAT has a massive 9'5" standing reach. Jokic is 9'3". I'm not sure what Rui is at but I'm guessing it's closer to 9'? It makes a big difference. Jokic would just get deep position and seal Rui and shoot over him easily. KAT can contest that better.
The underrated aspect is that you must find a 4 that can hold his own against Jokic for at least a few seconds, AND also not drag you down at the other end. Big strong guys are easy to find, big guys that are a plus at the 4 on a 2024 offense, much less so. KAT is in rare company I bet. He's probably the best shooting big and it's invaluable.
If the lakers had another big (Dwight) they would match up a lot better with Denver idk why they just said fuck that roster from 20-21 that won the ship.
Doc Rivers popularized it when he had PJ Tucker on Jokic. Darvin Ham emulated it with Rui on Jokic. But The Lakers had the solution all along back in 2020 when AD was still playing PF alongside Dwight or McGee.
If the lob doesn’t kill the defense, Gordon’s offensive rebounding will. It’s really those offensive rebounds that drain the life out of an opposing defense.
Lakers had Rui guarding Jokic last years playoffs as well and realized AD as the roamer was the smarter option. Unfortunately they didnt have the big men depth to have it be as effective as Minny did. I think it becomes obvious to any team once you see Jokic making passes to rim attackers constantly.
Utah did this with Favors and Gobert years ago. There just aren't alot of teams that can play two bigs against Denver. Having a big like AD or KAT or Embiid that can score efficiently on the other end is what makes it so potent.
Not on Jokic specifically but Boston’s defense totally changed in 2022 under Ime when they started using Rob Williams in this exact roaming role, he was so explosive and quick with the help reads off Horford blocking and altering shots. I’m sure this strategy has been used before but that was the first time I’d seen it be a foundational part of a great defense
This is what the 2020 Lakers team and every version of the Bucks since acquiring Brook has been. The true big + rangy secondary rim protector model is not recent.
I don’t think there’s another team in the league who has two starting bigs, one who can reliably guard Jokic and another who is a 4x DPOY rim protector, while not sacrificing too much on the offensive end. So yeah, the blueprint is there. But I don’t think there’s any team that can copy it
It's not some foolproof strategy, but the response from Denver didn't work well enough. In game 7, they usually had Gordon in the weak side post. When Jokic would draw help, he would pin Gobert to set up a corner 3 for a teammate.
It looks great when it works: [Clip](https://youtu.be/IHTvqrEOVg4?si=DQA8kflgm8IXMtp4&t=62)
Here's one that is well-defended, but Porter makes a nice individual play: [Clip](https://youtu.be/IHTvqrEOVg4?si=bu1snu5iyrytqkY5&t=418)
But it also means Gobert gets to live in the paint where he's comfortable. If Gordon was in the corner instead, it would pull Gobert out. And the paint would be more clear for little guys to cut. He would need to shoot though.
You basically need a good roaming center to cover 1-4 and a guy who weighs 600 pounds to throw on Jokic who is somehow also an NBA caliber player.
They didn’t get figured out, they got built against. It took perfect personnel to squeak out a game 7 win against them. It’s basically how every team had a giant garbage center to throw in against shaq where their entire job was to foul without conceding the dunk.
It wasn’t the default until the team success flipped in Jan 2022, Ime started having Rob off ball as a free safety, now KP does it some for Boston, and they’ll even have Jrue guard the big
Minnesota was quite objectively the best defensive matchup for the Nuggets. There is no other team in the league that can hang with Denver defensively in an effective and sustainable manner. Even then, the series went to 7 games.
Smarter for sure I’d say, but the next question is execution, and that’s really hard to pull off.
I’m pretty sure we would be the ones to get credit for that. Prior to 2020 we would put Favors on Jokic and have Rudy play off of somebody else. Denver didn’t even have Gordon yet, but Jokic did struggle immensely vs us when we did that. Jokic averaged 9 ppg vs us in 2018 and 13 ppg in 2019, and he played 4 games each year. It’s just a shame Favors couldn’t shoot like Towns.
Goddamn Lakers FO watched Jokic bully them last year and then did nothing about getting any bigs. They won in '20 with a center rotation outside of AD that had Javale and Dwight. Instead, they bring in Christian Wood and Jaxson Hayes. One is a chucker and the other is Jaxson Hayes.
Lakers copied? Lol. We were the team doing that. That was the whole point of the Lakers figured Denver out meme where we cameback from like 25 points to one possesion game in g1 last year. Also 2020 Lakers did that too though Gordon was not around that time.
Two bigs has been picking up since shooter bigs are more common and will only get more and more.
Not every team has 3 viable bigs. 2 of which are allstar or near alkstar lvl lol
Why doesn't everyone just use their multitime defensive player of the year center along with their other Allstar center and 6th man of the year center?
Then use your 6’7 and 6’6 wings to lockdown Jamal Murray and have a solid/smart defensive guard like Conley to make the right switches and not leave MPJ/KCP open. I do think the Nuggets could desperately use another shot creator on offense, but there’s only a single team in the league that can actually shut the offense for 4 of 7 games.
See, this would still not be enough if anyone else other than Jokic or Murray could make an open shot here or there.
Yeah KCP and MPJ are supposed to be sharpshooters but they couldn’t hit a shot this series.
God some of those MPJ bricks hurt my soul. Like straight up only hit the side of the backboard clanks... Jesus christ haha
Jaden McDaniels was on MPJ the majority of Games 5-7 while Ant and NAW was taking Murray. Even if a shooter gets open, disrupting the flow of an offense and making the shooter rush into a shot or not be in rhythm affects shotmaking. It's not a coincidence MPJ had a worse series against the Wolves than the Lakers and it's not only just missing open shots.
Jaden is more like 6’10 lol. Kind of guy screens were invented for.
In reality the path to success for a lot of other teams is just gonna have to be offense. Finding 3 viable 7 footers is a pipe dream
I mean Gobert and Conley were just sitting there and anyone other team could have snagged them. They were underrated by everyone except TC and the wolves. Same for Naz as he went undrafted
Yeah the Lakers played the same scheme in 2020 to great success. Use Dwight and McGee to slow down Jokic. Have AD roam the paint. And bother them with long intelligent defenders. The problem this year was the Lakers had no real big to defend Jokic so AD had to do it. And Rui is dumber than a box of rocks and consistently lost MPJ. Like everyone knows exactly what MPJ is gonna do. He lives at the three point line and pretty much nowhere else. And yet consistently Rui was out of position. If they didn’t let MPJ get wide open shots all series the Lakers probably take it.
Lakers don't have the money now but they should really look to add a big man. The option to go AD at the 4 was just a different look and would throw teams off. Instead pelinka and ham went the other direction and throw those trash LeBron at the 5 lineups.
12 years ago, putting Bosh at the 5 redeemed the Heat and Spoelstra is a genius for inventing small ball. The narrative in LA was AD had to play the 5 to unlock the offense even though he didn't want to. Is Denver just super unique because Jokic is the goat passing 5 or are bigs becoming more necessary again?
AD is very obviously a 5 offensively. Watch how he plays. Not only does he play from 15 and in, he also basically bullies everyone that he can bully. Defensively, it would be really nice to let AD play the 4 sometimes (even if it means LeBron plays the 3, which is not ideal, but so be it) but you **need** spacing on offense. A guy like Myles Turner or Brook Lopez would be ideal, maybe more attainable would be someone like Olynyk. Before anyone says it, in 2020 AD was a better shooter from the perimeter, but also our offense was NOT good and relied on the offensive brilliance of athletically prime AD and 35-y/o LeBron. And even then our best lineups had AD at the 5. Jokic is a hard matchup for the Lakers because AD guarding Jokic neutralizes him as an off ball defensive terror. If we could have AD guard Jokic and a clone of AD guard Gordon, it would not be a problem.
Makes sense. LA needs a 5 who can stretch the floor on offense and can grind on defense or at least defend the lob, which is a rare.
Its easier to poison Jokic than to clone AD.
Problem is it’s such a huge offensive liability. AD is not as good of a three point shooter as KAT, and finding a shooting big who can guard Jokic one on one would be impossible. I think they do regret not going after Myles Turner harder.
Imagine if Pelinka didnt let Brook Lopez walk the same year they got Lebron
The word is that Brook was never coming back because he refused to play for Luke again and the lakers weren’t willing to fire Luke yet
I'm pretty sure that was Magic and not Pelinka given Magic has said letting Brooke walk was one of his biggest regrets.
Trade Rui/DLO and some pieces for a serviceable big that can play 20-25 minutes a game. Rui is the most expendable piece He doesn't fit in the offense and needs to be fed the ball to be effective. And if he's not on, his defense doesn't make up for it. DLO is another one.. I think everything about him fits in well except for his physical skillset. As hard as he tries, he lays stinkers when the game is tense in the playoffs. He had a few good games, but most of his playoff performances were stinkers.
I never have a good time watching DLO take a shot. Even when they go in.
We're trying Jennifer
You see the wolves had jaden on MPJ for most of the series too. MPJ barely had any looks because of Jaden lol.
Yeah after game 1 I realized how mean I was to shit on Brad Beal after the first round. Swapping back and forth from being defended by McDaniels to Ant is enough to send even the best players to the shadow realm, let alone a guy that is pretty much a shooter
Rui's defensive IQ isn't great but part of his issue isn't really IQ so much as he's not good at chasing off ball shooters. He basically got benched against the Warriors last year for that reason. Like he just lacks the lateral movement as well as screen navigation.
I hate the Lakers and was yelling at my TV every time MPJ was wide ass open from 3. Like come on bros.
In 2020 it's also notable that while Jerami Grant played in a broadly similar role to Aaron Gordon, he's not as smart as a cutter and just as good as a finisher as AG is, along with AG just having better additional strengths in rebounding and passing compared to Grant.
Similar vibes to “why doesn’t every NFL team just draft Patrick Mahomes?” Like, WE’RE TRYING!
Crazy thing is KAT was known to be a defensive liability for most of his career, but the most effective coverage seemed to be KAT guarding Jokic with Gobert cheating off one of the role players. KAT is one of the few players who has the beef to guard Jokic in the post too. But yeah, no one else has the personnel to replicate this. They even have multiple elite perimeter defenders.
The reality is center defense is less about your 1v1 matchup and more about your ability to play help against pnr, drives, and cuts while also recovering well enough to your man to prevent a dunk.
It's wild that's what it took to beat Jokic and it still took 7 games.
And appalling play from our supporting cast (and terrible coaching in G7). This is gonna be a fun rivalry
Genuine question, do you think the resting Jokic once you get up 20 is just a hindsight take? I feel like Minnesota immediately started weathering the storm once it got to 20 and there wasn’t a clear time to rest him.
They should have probably rested him more than a minute in the 1st half, but it’s all hindsight. He was gassed no doubt, but Minn was in the middle of a big run at the time he’d normally sit in the 3rd so it makes sense to leave him in there. In general I think Jokic said “trust me,” and overestimated himself a little bit. Malone trusted him, he should probably make him sit next time. None of that was horrible decision making by any means though.
I think it's a hindsight take. Jokic shot like 50 3s that rimmed out, a couple more of those go in and maybe nuggets squeak the win out and everyone's talking about how amazing it was that Michael Malone trusted jokic to stay in the whole game.
Yeah i agree. And resting when up 20 wasn't realistic anyway since it was like 2 minutes into 3rd and no one would sit a star at that time. I think maybe they could have realised this was going to the wire when it was around 8 but even then benching a star in the middle of a big run was too big of a call.
The entire second half strategy was chucking threes and hacking Gobert. 5 minutes of DAJ wouldn't have disrupted that, lol.
Tbh I’m not having any fun with it rn
Hey you got that title. We don’t have one of those. Reload and let’s do this again next year! These teams are murder on each other.
Remember when we won a ring last year after being an NBA footnote for 5 decades?
I absolutely do, will cherish that and attending the ring ceremony with my wife forever
i don't think you had terrible coaching. i think you really missed bruce brown.
The problem is that even though Joker being gassed lead to those missed 3s of his, they weren't egregious misses -- most of them rimmed out. Had a just a couple of those gone in, you guys most likely would have won the game and the discourse over Malone keeping him in would be very different. But a big question is why did everyone else on the team also start chucking 3s, when that's what got them blown out in Game 6
It’s so easy smh.
It’s a bit crazy, I don’t know any other nba star have to play into such a nightmare rotation at the position across from them, and still play really damn well (would have been dominant if the 3’s were falling lol)
lmao wow this puts it in perspective how talented the bigs are
well, according to everyone here the wolves were bidding against nobody for Gobert, so every team could have just traded for this multitime defensive player of the year center
It's crazy a year ago how hard everyone on here was shitting on the wolves for "overpaying" and how they fucked their future up Now everyone is shameless with the glazing lol this sub is a cesspool
Are they stupid?
not everyone (in-fact, maybe only the wolves) really have the personnel to defend Joker like this, and even then it took a shallow roster and bad shooting to really beat them so what I'm saying is, sure, it's a good scheme, but you also need a perfect roster to execute it and even then you still need some luck. so I think the rest of the league can try this but good luck to them if they think they've solved jokic
Exactly. And Denver STILL almost won. That's how unbelievable Jokic is. If we had the same rosters next year it could go the other way.
I mean most people had Timberwolves as Nuggets biggest threat before they faced off, most people forget that basketball is at the end of the day a game of matchups and it almost seems like the Wolves are tailor made to beat the Nuggets even if they arent the best team in the league
This is the same as the "Just shoot more 3s" formula every team tried to use 2015-2020. Like sure, 3s are worth more than 2s. But it's only the path to a dynasty when you have by far the greatest shooter of all time with another top 3/4 shooter of all time in their primes on the same team.
Also 2 of which can shoot so you’re not sacrificing floor spacing at all lol. KAT is literally one of the best shooting bigs ever and Naz is one of the better shooting centers in the league. Minnesota was basically constructed to beat Denver and people are wondering why nobody else could do it lol.
precisely! they literally traded everything for gobert for this reason ..shit is working
Weren't we the first ones to put 2 bigs on Jokic in the bubble too? I'm pretty sure we gave everyone the blueprint
Pelinka cooked then decided he cooked too much
Jokić is arguably the best passer ever. Throwing two bigs at him just means that he can easily find the open man for an open shot. Minnesota nullifies this by having very good perimeter defenders to swarm and disrupt Murray and MPJ.
It’s arguably a different Jokic and different team though. Just barely, but pre-mvp. He’s a much better player now than he was 4 years ago. The team also didn’t have KCP or AG and MPJ was really young. I think it’s fairly accurate to say “defending Denver” is fairly different now than it was in 2020. The Lakers were more hack Jokic and make his life miserable where now it’s like clog the paint to stop Jokic/AG and stay home on everyone else.
Lakers had a bunch of elite wing defenders in 2020. KCP, Caruso, Green, younger Lebron. They were swarming too not just hacking lol
Jazz were forced to do that back when we had the D Favs and Rudy combo, that lineup just stunk offensively
Some of us barely even have 1 😔
This is some Korean LoL level advice lmao
Just deny him CS it’s so easy
and it still came down to game 7 Denver just needs a better bench
There are not many teams that have one strong rim protector + another big, strong guy who can more or less handle Joker.
Just Cavs and Bucks
Yeah, the Bucks managed to defend the Nuggets/Jokic pretty well in their Feb matchup this year, winning 112-97. Brook + Giannis is a pretty good combo, with Brook defending the rim from Gordon and Jokic and Giannis being able to follow around and annoy Jokic. Gave me a lot of hope for the new "Doc Rivers defensive scheme". That didn't work out so well in the end...
Don't forget the long athletic bois in the wings - McDaniels, NAW, and Ant. They are long but at the same time they don't get screened so easily. And if they do get beat/screened, they're athletic enough to recover! The Wolves are a good example of a perfect match in personnel and defensive scheme.
Jaden was like 99Th percentile in navigating screens last year. Crazy seeing naw being great too
Mavs with Lively/Gafford as the rim protector + Kleber to handle Joker were doing quite well as well. Of course, that wouldn't have worked this upcoming series with Kleber injured for at least the start of it
the lakers problem was AD is their entire defense. no strategy was going to change that
Pelinka making no moves to acquire a legit back up big was costly.
With how close every game was, someone like Daniel Gafford could have swung that series in the Lakers favor.
Even with Gafford, Ham was getting out coached every damn game.
It’s easier to get outcoached when you have worse pieces to work with
Prinks making no moves to acquire a good fare see over 6’2 was an issue
I’m an admitted casual fan in my estimation, but rim-protecting backup bigs are like the cheapest role players out there right? It seems like there’s always half a dozen 6’10 or taller dudes that can protect the rim and not much else that can be had for a vet minimum.
Lakers don't need a rim protector though, they need someone who can hold up against Jokic's post and face up game well enough to let AD play the 5 and protect the paint, they need an Aaron Gordon. That level of strength and agility is going to cost more than some stiff who can stand by the rim and be tall for 15-20 minutes a night.
Like who?
I just knew getting Spencer was a bad idea because it gave Ham the excuse to run 3-guard lineups again.
twolves have ballhawks everywhere on their roster its a huge dropoff to d'lo and austin reaves, not gonna jump as many passes
D'Lo and Reaves on defense compared to JMac and NAW is the reason why Rudy held Jokic to 7 assists compared to 30+ on AD.
This is the really answer. The way to beat Denver has always been shut down Jokic’s help. Minnesota made it so Jokic and Murray help only scored 21 points together and they won when Murray got tired and Jokic settled because of the difficulty of getting to their normal shots. The way to beat Minny is to stop their mediocre offense and play perfect offensive basketball, which Denver did games 3-5 and most of game 7. They just faltered when Jokic and Murray’s legs got tired.
>The way to beat Minny is to stop their mediocre offense and play perfect offensive basketball, which Denver did games 3-5 and most of game 7. They just faltered when Jokic and Murray’s legs got tired. Which is why they need to improve their bench to be competent enough give them just a short 5 to 6 min break in these type of games.
MPJ went from averaging 23 on great efficiency in the first round to 7 on terrible efficiency. dame and cj have proven you cant win in the playoffs with no perimeter defense no matter how good the rest of the squad is
> dame and cj have proven you cant win in the playoffs with no perimeter defense no matter how good the rest of the squad is Excuse me lol. No matter how good the rest of the squad is? You mean Mo Harkless and Aminu?
Aminu was a solid defender
That was always the subtly context when the crazy free throw gap comes up. Lakers don't foul bc the rest of the defense outside of AD is so bad they simply aren't in position to do so.
That was their problem ever since they got Russ, and lost Kuzma, KCP and Isaiah Jackson (whom they just drafted, but in hindsight he turned out to be playoff rotation worthy player) In that one single trade they destroyed their team and basically lost them a season and half, who knows where they would have been with both KCP and Kuzma. It was also super strange to stray away from a team that usually works with LeBron, it's like he's aware he can't create that well with the ball anymore but still a terrible decision
They had zubac too and traded him for muscala And could've signed Caruso outright but they got cheap (while still signing tht)
Once I heard the Lakers landed Russ, I knew it was over. I didn't even want to watch the start of that season, but forced myself to do it.
They saw after the championship run and subsequent 2021 playoff run that they needed a real number 1 ball handler and gambled on Russ. It didn’t work because Russ ended up not being good enough either, but the team was going to be screwed anyway if they stood pat and let LeBron try to outdo guys like Luka, Jokic, Steph, CP3/Booker, Morant, etc as a lead ball handler over the course of those next couple seasons.
Lol yeah like no shit it didn’t have the same effect for the Lakers cause AD had to do it by himself. It took 3 mfs to defend 1 dude on the Nuggets for the Wolves to win in 7
I remember after the first time MIN did it against Jokic last year, one of the MIN beat writers mentioned that UTA had defended KAT this way in a previous matchup by having Bojan guard KAT and having Rudy roam.
Good work pooper
Pretty sure it was 76ers as well with PJ on Jokic and Embiid roaming. I think this is a known strategy that only works with elite perimeter defense.
Pretty sure the Warriors did this too. Draymond on Jokic and Looney near the rim which I think is what Draymond was hinting at the other day on nba on tnt
Boston as well. We were the best Jokic defending team in the league. Pretty much every game we either stopped his scoring or his playmaking. Al Horford, Rob Williams and Grant Williams used to be the best Jokic defending core in the league. And our defence in general used to be heavily focused on having Al Horford play an on-ball role with Rob Williams in that weak-side shot blocking role. Grant Williams' "Batman" nickname also came from a dominant defensive performance on "the Joker". Although since losing 2/3 of that defensive rotation and the 3rd getting older, we've started to really struggle on Jokic.
This is a homer take, but can other teams really mimic what the T-Wolves defense does? They were the best defense in the league all year. It feels like a "draw the rest of the owl" situation. All you need is a 4xDPOY rim protector, another big to put on Jokic, and elite defenders at every position...easy.
The Denver Nuggets hate this one simple trick
My least favorite of this is the Nuggest are definitely having the "should they avoid the Wolves" conversation around next year's seeding in the playoffs
"avoiding the wolves" is so ridiculous, it's not like we swept the nuggets we had to come back down 20 in a game 7. A rematch would be plenty winnable from either side
Agreed. I hope it's less trading blowouts next year tho lol
also, it is better to have to endure hot take conversations like that after you already banked a ring lol
yeah but they probably could sweep some of the other team options. not weird for them to avoid the match up
I mean it's definitely not a dream matchup but intentionally losing games to avoid the wolves is silly and a losers mentality that the nuggets don't and shouldn't have. I hope next year brings us another entertaining series between 2 NBA champions 😌
And a coach that has somehow inspired young stars 24 and under that playing defense can be cool and rewarding
Finch underrated for getting buy in. But respect for the players for their commitment.
I think Rudy had a huge hand in getting the guys to buy in too.
Rudy and Finch are both a big part of it. I think Ant is too. When you see your team leader taking one on one defensive matchups as personally as he does on a regular basis it has a real domino effect all the way down the roster.
Yeah Naz said he didn't like defense before but Rudy's passion for it was contagious and Rudy helped him see how fun it is. Naz says he gets a rush from defending now :')
Thats credit to Rudy too
Maybe Cleveland with Mobley and Allen
In theory yes, but the offensive spacing will be horrendous unless Mobley keeps improving the 3 ball. Cleveland’s bigs just aren’t as talented as Minny’s
which should be expected JA is barely a year older than Naz Reid and Mobley is still only 22 Mobley’s FT% and 3P% have both increased substantially and his jumper is so much smoother now. he doesn’t have anymore hitch and it’s helped out so much
I agree 100%, I would love to hang onto them both but it seems like that ship has sailed. I do have immense confidence in Mobley to become an elite player, so if the front office is going to keep one, I'd pick Mobley every time. All love to JA though, he's great. Also great username, just dug out an old Cavs sign I got signed by Shumpert during the 15-16 season!
They're both too skinny. Part of why it worked for the Wolves is KAT was too hefty for Joker to back down easily
That's why OKC is sending the farm for Allen next year
We’ve won 3 of the last 4 against them and the loss was without Murray. I think that just goes to show how good MIN has been this game plan.
First, I want to give the Timberwolves props. You guys fought hard, had some bad calls go against you, and you guys rebounded from a 20 point deficit to win. Your team played well. That said, Denver was worn out. You could see that in the Lakers series. They were running hard the first half of game 7, but were gassed in the second half. There were also injury issues on both sides. Also, your coach made good adjustments and gave key players breaks. Denver doesn’t have a backup center so that forces playing Jokic too much, which gassed him at the end. Winning a championship also led to players leaving for bigger contracts. So the debt of last year was greatly reduced. I think the Wolves are in a good position, but time will tell how things work out. A new owner might royally screw up the team. They might want a player the GM doesn’t and then there goes the team.
Yeah I think that reinforces my point. If the T-Wolves and Nuggets meet up next year I still wouldn't be in any way confident the Wolves would win it. They got through by the skin of their teeth this year and they are probably one of the best defensive teams of the last 5-10 years and basically everything has been perfect for them (health, chemistry, coaching, etc.). There's no guarantee even the Wolves can capture that magic again, let alone another team replicating the exact conditions. A whole lot of things lined up for the Wolves this year and even then they had to be damn near perfect and even then barely squeaked by. My point is I don't think anyone ought to panic about the Nuggets right now. Even if they took this same exact team back next year they have a good chance to go deep again. It's not like the Timberwolves exposed a soft spot, they just executed defensively extremely well and additionally had some luck go their way.
They rarely play, but the Bucks tend to do a pretty good job on Denver with Brook and Giannis. They held Jokic and Gordon down pretty well in the 2 matchups this year. Murray always kills them though, even when Jrue played.
I don't think anyone can. The Wolves are basically made in a lab for being the absolute best matchup you could reasonably get against the Nuggets. Main off the dribble scoring option being a hyper athletic guard means you can thrive on Murray, him being a tank helps with KCP, and him being ridiculously fast means you can't easily put Gordon on him like you could against a Tatum or Luka. Having 2 mobile and decently to very strong starting 7 footers means you can guard Jokic better than basically everyone else, plus a small balm center than can go insane for some minutes off the bench and tire Jokic out even more. Ant can guard Murray very well and not the other way around. You basically needed MPJ to hit shots, and he didn't. It's a bit of a reductionist overview, and it makes it sound like the Wolves should've been favored, and I don't think it was reasonable to expect that. But if you jist look at it on paper, the Wolves are almost exactly what you would want for a team to take down the Nuggets, plus most of the Wolves weaknesses (which aren't many) were such that the Nuggets weren't the ideal team to captalize on them.
Tim Connelly literally built both teams. Minnesota threw millions at him because no one knew the Nuggets strengths and weaknesses like him. Just a crazy storyline! This will be a rivalry for the next era.
Knicks can if they re-sign Hartenstein. Hartenstein, Mitch and OG are 3 elite defensive bigs that you can throw at Jokic.
Hartenstein was so impressive. When Mitch went down I was sure you were done but you kept cooking for a few more games until OG went down too. I had no idea Hartenstein could pass that well.
That's definitely true, but part of the reason the Wolves' combinations are so good is that KAT and Naz Reid both space the floor too. OG is a capable shooter obviously, and Hartenstein has a nice midrange game, but altogether they're not the offensive threat the Wolves have in their bigs.
To go to 7 games at that. No other team can hang with DEN the way you guys do.
You guys remind me of the 22 Celtics, who I think could’ve done a similar sort of thing against the Nuggets with the Rob Williams/Horford double big lineup. This year they could still roll out something kind of similar with a Porzingus/Horford lineup but it would be somewhat lesser version defensively.
Just on steroids. You have a 4x DPOY, near all-star and 6MOTY on Minnesota.
It is the correct take though. KAT did a great job on Jokic.
And we barely defeated them with all those conditions...
Bro the Nuggets are so good idk how we won that series bruh 😭
Because MPJ decided he wanna built a brick house against the big bad Wolves. Man had open shots and missed a lot of them, which could have changed the game if he even made one of them during the Wolves comeback.
They missed a lot of open shots because these shots didn't come from rhythm. There is a reason why teams' offensive efficiency in every area including open shots drop when the opposing team hustle their ass off. Both teams got really tired (which also made Minnesota less efficient too)
Yeah this. Ant wasn't firing in game 7 because the Nuggets focused on taking him out of rhythm (he got some of it back in Q4). Unfortunately for the Nuggets, that left KAT with mismatches, and Conley and Rudy with opportunities to fill the void.
Yeah, the wolves offense has been around league average though, so playing a team with a top end offense and a top 10 defense was a question of “can the offense actually put it together.”
Reminds me of everyone trying to mimic the Warriors small ball.
Yeah. All you need is the best shooter of all time, a couple other elite 3-point shooters, and also a great defense. Why doesn't every team just do that, are they stupid?
Wolves were like... fuck small ball, we're just going to go bigger!
We had some success against them by using JWill on Jokic with Chet on AG Obviously that was the regular season though.
Might be an equally homer take but the Magic might. Small sample size but we went 2-0 against the Nuggets, guys like Wendell and Goga (if we keep him) are strong enough to not be traffic cones for Jokic and then the rest of the team is so long it makes it incredibly hard to pass and Suggs will do as well as you can to cut off most of the perimeter creation they have with Murray
I’m a magic fan but it’s honestly a reasonable take imo. Dell isn’t the greatest defender but he is a decent floor spacing big, Moe is a decent offensive big who can play 4&5, Goga is a ‘Great Value’ Rudy, Paolo is a 6’10 250lb big who can slide to the 3, Franz is a 6’10 3/2, and JI is also pretty long.
Yeah, it’s silly and shows where Jokic is in the stratosphere of players that talk is like this. Reminds me of talks of LeBron stoppers and how teams would talk about shaq and Kobe lol
Nah, it's like when the Raptors guarded Giannis well and people were saying something similar ignoring the fact that very few teams had the defensive personnel that team had. There isn't a single team in the NBA that can replicate what the Wolves did on Jokic.
It's a waste to put your best rim protector on Jokic bc he's gonna cook them no matter who it is. Idk why ppl are just not figuring out letting the MVP go 1 on 1 is a bad idea? Nobody can do it to the level the T-Wolves can (and it still took a 7 game series to put Jokic away) but the Thunder strategy was to limit Jokic 1 on 1 in the post and collapse the paint on him. They were 3-1 against the Nuggets in the regular season.
> This is a homer take, but can other teams really mimic what the T-Wolves defense does? No, yall have 2 star centers and one of the best role players off the bench who also happens to be a center.
The Lakers just couldn't close out games. It's not like they had a lead at the half for nothing every game
Those games were all wars, even last years playoff games vs LAL. Denver just always hit the big shot and did a great job of making someone other than Lebron beat them late
lakers getting moral victories a whole series later. generational shit
Lakers scheme was actually pretty decent I thought, the issue is that their personnel is just nowhere near Minnesota’s. Even though AD is as good as Gobert on defense, Rui and DLo are horrible screen navigators and that left MPJ wide open 3 after wide open 3. Reaves tries but Murray can go by him whenever he wants. And then LeBron at the 4 is basically 40 and his rebounding vs Denver’s size was too tall of a task. Obviously him getting back in transition and roaring onto shooters is inconsistent at best. No coach in NBA history can scheming them into shutting down Denver
Bro Rui didnt even need screens to get lost. The dude just lost MPJ by looking at the ball
Did you even watch the series because Murray was terrible 90% of it. Personal wasn’t the difference in that series, it was coaching and execution down the stretch
Murray was bad for a lot of it but the point about Rui and Dlo is valid. The Lakers died on screens very consistently.
Just coping man. Ham made mistakes for sure but are you seriously telling me that the personnel of Bron-Rui-Reaves-DLo defense compared to an Ant-NAW-McDaniels-Reid defense wasn’t the difference
Generational like the 08 Celtics dynasty
People overly index on the roamer. I think the real key is both the roamer and the pf. It doesn't work with Rui Hachimura. AD's arguably the best roamer in the league, and it doesn't work. The other big has to be able to guard Jokic to some degree. Most teams haven't been able to as the league shifted to putting SFs at the 4. Now bigger basketball is coming back and we're seeing more traditional 4s again. Even just specific guys like a washed PJ Tucker had success last year because while he's a SF size he's so specialized in regards to his post defense. So maybe if we see more big man duos like the Wolves. Although I'm doubtful the centers won't keep getting skinnier.
Yeah, you need someone stout enough to hold up to Jokic at least to a degree. Simply put, there are like 4 ways Jokic can score on you in the post: going around you toward the hoop, going around you away from the hoop, going “through” you by backing you down, or falling away from the defender with a fade-away. The roamer can shut off one side (usually the side toward the basket). If the primary can stop Jokic from going “through”, it largely just leaves the two least efficient ways for him to score (usually spinning away from the basket and using his flips or hooks or stepping back for his fadeaway). He can still score that way, but tough spinning hooks or flips with his body going away from the basket are probably only 50% for Jokic (which is still insane). KAT being strong enough to prevent Jokic from simply burying him under the hoop was GIANT for the Wolves’ ability to slow him down. It also helps keep the roamer roaming — if the primary defender gets buried, the roamer needs to shade over to Jokic, which is when he can toss those lobs to Gordon.
Rui is pretty strong. Of course Jokic is stronger, but I think a lot of the issue is also that he's just shorter than Jokic. KAT has a massive 9'5" standing reach. Jokic is 9'3". I'm not sure what Rui is at but I'm guessing it's closer to 9'? It makes a big difference. Jokic would just get deep position and seal Rui and shoot over him easily. KAT can contest that better.
The underrated aspect is that you must find a 4 that can hold his own against Jokic for at least a few seconds, AND also not drag you down at the other end. Big strong guys are easy to find, big guys that are a plus at the 4 on a 2024 offense, much less so. KAT is in rare company I bet. He's probably the best shooting big and it's invaluable.
Which is why it annoys me KAT's not getting proper credit. Being an actual big at the 4 gives him this defensive impact.
The problem is Dlo and Austin Reaves are dog shit defensively compared to Ant, and Jaden Mcdaniels
Last year we used PJ tucker on jokic and embiid on gordon and it worked pretty well.
yeah i cant help but feel like this isnt anything new, just that the timberwolves have pretty much the best setup for it
you need two good post defenders... Lakers tried it with AD, but they didnt have a second defender.
I think Philly was the first one to do it? I remember they used tucker on Jokic and Embiid on Gordon
Not everyone has Godzilla, Kong and Mothra on the same team.
If the lakers had another big (Dwight) they would match up a lot better with Denver idk why they just said fuck that roster from 20-21 that won the ship.
Doc Rivers popularized it when he had PJ Tucker on Jokic. Darvin Ham emulated it with Rui on Jokic. But The Lakers had the solution all along back in 2020 when AD was still playing PF alongside Dwight or McGee. If the lob doesn’t kill the defense, Gordon’s offensive rebounding will. It’s really those offensive rebounds that drain the life out of an opposing defense.
Agreed except pretty apparently the Tucker switch was Tucker and Embiid’s idea and Doc Rivers was like “sounds good”
Lakers had Rui guarding Jokic last years playoffs as well and realized AD as the roamer was the smarter option. Unfortunately they didnt have the big men depth to have it be as effective as Minny did. I think it becomes obvious to any team once you see Jokic making passes to rim attackers constantly.
Sixers did it with PJ Tucker of all ppl on Jokic
Utah did this with Favors and Gobert years ago. There just aren't alot of teams that can play two bigs against Denver. Having a big like AD or KAT or Embiid that can score efficiently on the other end is what makes it so potent.
Interesting. So according to the comments, this strategy actually pre-dates the 3 point line.
Not on Jokic specifically but Boston’s defense totally changed in 2022 under Ime when they started using Rob Williams in this exact roaming role, he was so explosive and quick with the help reads off Horford blocking and altering shots. I’m sure this strategy has been used before but that was the first time I’d seen it be a foundational part of a great defense
This is what the 2020 Lakers team and every version of the Bucks since acquiring Brook has been. The true big + rangy secondary rim protector model is not recent.
I don’t think there’s another team in the league who has two starting bigs, one who can reliably guard Jokic and another who is a 4x DPOY rim protector, while not sacrificing too much on the offensive end. So yeah, the blueprint is there. But I don’t think there’s any team that can copy it
We did it with Embiid and pj tucker last year
It's not some foolproof strategy, but the response from Denver didn't work well enough. In game 7, they usually had Gordon in the weak side post. When Jokic would draw help, he would pin Gobert to set up a corner 3 for a teammate. It looks great when it works: [Clip](https://youtu.be/IHTvqrEOVg4?si=DQA8kflgm8IXMtp4&t=62) Here's one that is well-defended, but Porter makes a nice individual play: [Clip](https://youtu.be/IHTvqrEOVg4?si=bu1snu5iyrytqkY5&t=418) But it also means Gobert gets to live in the paint where he's comfortable. If Gordon was in the corner instead, it would pull Gobert out. And the paint would be more clear for little guys to cut. He would need to shoot though.
Not enough for LA to steal our former team, they need to steal our current team’s victories too.
You basically need a good roaming center to cover 1-4 and a guy who weighs 600 pounds to throw on Jokic who is somehow also an NBA caliber player. They didn’t get figured out, they got built against. It took perfect personnel to squeak out a game 7 win against them. It’s basically how every team had a giant garbage center to throw in against shaq where their entire job was to foul without conceding the dunk.
[удалено]
Isn't that just the default for that team? It's not like they play any different. They always have Rob Will as a roamer
It wasn’t the default until the team success flipped in Jan 2022, Ime started having Rob off ball as a free safety, now KP does it some for Boston, and they’ll even have Jrue guard the big
Minnesota was quite objectively the best defensive matchup for the Nuggets. There is no other team in the league that can hang with Denver defensively in an effective and sustainable manner. Even then, the series went to 7 games. Smarter for sure I’d say, but the next question is execution, and that’s really hard to pull off.
I’m pretty sure we would be the ones to get credit for that. Prior to 2020 we would put Favors on Jokic and have Rudy play off of somebody else. Denver didn’t even have Gordon yet, but Jokic did struggle immensely vs us when we did that. Jokic averaged 9 ppg vs us in 2018 and 13 ppg in 2019, and he played 4 games each year. It’s just a shame Favors couldn’t shoot like Towns.
Draymond Green in shambles. He kept crying about Rudy not guarding Joker.
Sixers did it with PJ on Jokic and Embiid on Gordon last year (22-23 season) right before the Lakers playoffs series.
Imagine the Lakers going through the post season and not prioritizing getting another big.
Doesnt matter if you know how to stop them if you dont have the resources to do it.
the mavs pulled it off using kleber on jokic and their centers on gordon in that game won by kyrie's buzzer beater
They don’t have the bench they did last year with uncle Jeff and especially Bruce gone
Goddamn Lakers FO watched Jokic bully them last year and then did nothing about getting any bigs. They won in '20 with a center rotation outside of AD that had Javale and Dwight. Instead, they bring in Christian Wood and Jaxson Hayes. One is a chucker and the other is Jaxson Hayes.
Bubble 2020 Lakers showed how to beat them and moved away afterwards like jack asses
Lakers copied? Lol. We were the team doing that. That was the whole point of the Lakers figured Denver out meme where we cameback from like 25 points to one possesion game in g1 last year. Also 2020 Lakers did that too though Gordon was not around that time. Two bigs has been picking up since shooter bigs are more common and will only get more and more.