While claiming to stake out a "middle ground" between "all old players were plumbers" and "basketball talent is static," JJ Redick said Kevin Love is better than 99% of the power forwards on the NBA's Top 75 list.
The power forwards on the list were Giannis, Barkley, AD, Duncan, KG, Malone, Dirk, Rodman, McHale, and Pettit.
And there are people in this thread defending JJ as though he’s some voice of reason. He is the same as any sports talking head out there, knowing you have the platform, say stuff that would generate controversy, profit.
Before his platform got mainstream, he had a lot of good discussion. There still is but there's definitely more wild shit like this coming out of it which ruins it
Big market really got to him. I can imagine him shitting on legendary coaches if Lakers have any semblance of success
The Adam Silver and Ben Simmons interviews didn’t help his credibility either. We all watched as he tried to remain neutral (not even objectively neutral at that) and not step on any toes so that his (future) media career isn’t ruined.
The Ben Simmons interview being a cringe fest to watch and it being a bad interview are different things. It was a successful interview, it got to the root of Simmons’ mindset and self-delusion. I’ve never been tempted to buy back into him bc of that interview.
> there are people in this thread defending JJ as though he’s some voice of reason.
It's cause he's Larry Bird levels of clear. Guy is a creationist and conspiracy theorist as he's shone on his own podcast. He's basically Kyrie Irving with better PR and less of a social media presence. If he was JJ Jackson from Compton, he'd be constantly getting clowned on for pretending to be smart. Instead, he gets glazed nonstop.
I've never heard anything from JJ that would make me think he's intelligent, but this subreddit holds him up like he's one of the intellectual giants of basketball.
My vote for greatest outlet passer of all time is Kevin Love.
It didn't hurt that LeBron was the receiver for most of those precision bullets that Kevin Love was firing from 90 ft away.
Redick is heavily leaning towards new generation and so is Richard Jefferson. I don't take them seriously when comparing eras.
Them two are trying to make themselves bigger than they were while disrespecting players they looked up to in their careers. Nobody ever made ads about Richard Jefferson or JJ Redick, nobody ever said "we need to get one of them on our team", nobody ever said "I wanna play with RJ/JJ", but they go around thrashing TMac, Paul Pierce, Jermaine O'Neal, LMA, Brandon Roy etc.
They ate it up because they agreed with it.
**COMPARING ACROSS GENERATIONS IS STUPID AF**
There is no way to do this analysis that is fair to anyone in either generation.
Baron makes a good point in this video that, you had all the time in the world to work on basketball, and JJ Reddick wasn't ANYWHERE close West in terms of peer to peer comparison.
Medicine, training, workouts, flights, diets, sports pyschs, a salary that provides generational wealth, better video technology, better stats analysis.
The game isn't even close to the same, it's impossible to compare.
I always assume Reddick just is comparing like "if you put Kevin Love in the 70s NBA he would be 10x MVP" or whatever.
Yes and there are high schoolers at every high school in america that would win GOLD in the 100ms at the Olympics if they time traveled 100 years back in time. There are boys in HS right now that would SMOKE Jesse Owens in the 100m. The same 10.3 he ran in Berlin in 1936.
Compare players to who they played against. Jerry West was a fucking BEAST in the NBA when he played. He is a greater player, compared to his peers, than Love or basically anyone else in then NBA today outside of ~20 players.
If you are on TikTok there was a whole trend of "we done with the 90s" of clips of 90s and 80s basketball players clanking shots, and just looking inept. It was really funny to me how similar a lot of the NBA playoff games look to that now that the refs are letting them play a bit more.
watching jerry west games, you experience this feeling of seeing the best player in the world at the time more than probably any player. I think one requirement for being the GOAT should be being the best player in the world at some given point. Jerry West was so talented as a guard on both ends of the floor and I believe he would've been a superstar in any era, given his build, brains, and work ethic. There's a reason he's such a highly regarded Scouter today.
There some old time players I don't feel that way about but just watching that clip that was on here on Jerry west you can see where his game translates. With modern training nutrition and rest he'd probably be just as good today.
>The power forwards on the list were Giannis, Barkley, AD, Duncan, KG, Malone, Dirk, Rodman, McHale, and Pettit.
Obviously Kevin Love doesn't hold a candle to any of these dudes, but it's interesting that this list would hold up super well in today's game IMO. Giannis, AD, Duncan, KG, and Dirk are all either already modern day or close enough to it that their game wouldn't fit any differently than it did during their primes.
Barkley, Malone, and McHale were all so multi-talented and exceptional that I have zero doubt they'd kill in today's game too. They all rebounded, Barkley was efficient, Malone was a killer pick-and-roll player, and McHale was a great defender and supreme post-up scorer. Their roles would be a bit different but they'd all be killing the league today too.
Rodman was a supernaturally good rebounder and defender, but was an offensive liability outside of being a lane-filler on a break even in the 90s. That would be a bigger problem in today's game given the premium on shooting and ball skills, but he'd still be fantastic overall IMO.
The PF list is really a lot less "dated" than some of the other positions.
For the one guy you didn’t talk about: Pettit was obviously older than all of those players, but I wouldn’t say his archetype is antiquated either. Stretch forward, jump shooter who hits the boards hard.
It is a shame how little people know about him. He had a Hall of Fame career.
* ROY
* All Star every year of his career
* Two-time MVP
* All NBA 1st Team every year of his career except his last year, when he was All NBA 2nd Team
* Scored 50 points in a Finals closeout game against the Celtics dynasty
* Led the League in scoring twice
* Career averages of 26.4/16.2/3.0
* When he retired he was the League's All Time Scorer
Literally the first MVP. I'd be surprised if 25% of modern NBA fans could correctly answer that trivia question.
He and Mikan are two of the guys who are done even worse justice than Wilt and Russell due to the lack of film because at least there is some great, clear HD footage from late in both of their careers. With Mikan and Pettit, we're lucky if we have a grainy newsreel with awkward game tape that's not properly adjusted for framerate/playback speed.
Along this same vein, I feel like Hondo is super overlooked. If you look at his resume, it stacks up against almost anyone ever, yet no one ever talks about him.
He was one of those guys who was very, very talented at putting the ball in the basket. He led the League in scoring a time or two and was the League's total leading scorer for a couple of years between Schayes and Wilt.
Was also one of those guys who got a friendly whistle from the refs. He was in the top 5 for FTAs for almost every year of his career.
And, as you mentioned, he was a superb rebounder. Also in the top 5 for TRBs for almost his entire career.
And he was one of those guys who was a tough SOB and had that dog in him, as they like to say these days. He broke his arm once and played in a cast for a few weeks. And he had a lot of injuries throughout his career that he played through.
These “today’s game” nonsense is overblown as fuck. It rings true for role players with specific skills who wouldve been better in different eras not for All Time Greats who transcend eras.
You think Shaquille ONeal or Wilt Chamberlain would struggle in todays era because they cant shoot ?
Small ball wouldn't have taken over if Shaq was in the league. When Shaq was at his peak there was simply no path to the finals that didn't go through him and a small ball team trying to defend against Shaq would be comical. They'd be in foul trouble by halfway through the 1st Q.
People only look at it from the angle of "what can't these guys do" as if we don't have star players with limited skillsets today. Giannis's career 3 point shooting is a whole 2% higher than Chuck's.
Comparatively Giannis has had rosters capable of playing 5, so the other team has to make the choice between packing the paint or letting him get an easy drive+kick. Chuck hasn't played with as many great shooters, the paint was significantly more packed back then, and he's still managed to be a hyper efficient scorer.
This isn't to say that I think someone like Chuck is better than Giannis. But he'd be a great player today even if he didn't magically develop a 3 ball.
He could. No reason why he couldn’t. Rodman would at least understand what he needed to do off the pick and roll and execute that flawlessly. Could he finish the bucket? Unclear.
Rodman was a pretty decent finisher around the rim, but just like Draymond once he gets the ball, he REFUSES to look at the basket until he absolutely has to.
Rodman had all the skills to be an unstoppable lob threat. Strange that it was never part of his game. None of the teams he played for needed any offense from him at all so I guess they just never bothered trying.
I think in the modern game he'd be catching lobs right and left.
> Strange that it was never part of his game.
I'm almost positive it was a part of his game during his Pistons years when he was way skinnier and had more of an explosive vertical
LOL I sure didn't mean to undersell him when I called him supernaturally good. He could legit guard anyone 1-5 and grab every damn rebound, plus dig out a half dozen offensive rebounds, plus make a half dozen hustle plays, all while annoying the shit out of the other team's star player.
He would still be a great player today, the question is just how much his lack of offensive skills would hurt him. He knew the offense better than anyone and was a great screener, but couldn't shoot, couldn't put it on the floor, and was only an OK passer. The kind of guy it would be hard to keep on the floor in clutch possessions when he could just be abandoned to double team someone else.
The thing is that players like KG, Dirk, Duncan and Barkley are generational dudes. They shape the game, not the other way around. Much like how if you dropped Shaq today, we'd have to go back to getting every 7 footer to throw at him through a game.
JJ Redick just admitted that dinosaurs did, in fact, probably exist. This dude is not a student of the game. He's not a student of anything. Dunce cap wearing, sit in the corner motherfucker.
It'll be less than 50 years.
Guys like Ben Gordon, Kevin Martin, Michael Redd, and Josh Howard are all largely forgotten, despite being much better players than JJ.
Like JJ did?
I’m glad to hear a modern guy like Baron Davis, who was unequivocally a much better player than JJ, come to the defense of the actual legends of the game. Truth be told, JJ couldn’t have played before the 3 point line because he would have been utterly useless as a player. A guy like Jerry West could have played in any era because he could shoot, handle the ball, pass, had good length and quickness, and had a great mind and passion for the game.
That's how I feel about most of this subreddit commenting on the goat debate lmao for the record, I'm 36 and missed most of Jordan's career so I bow out of that one myself
Doesnt even matter if people actually watched or not. Fans are fucking dumb. Knew a boomer bartender who swore MJ was a bum that got carried by Scottie. Nephews are still nephews when they get old.
It kind of does matter if people actually watched the games, because if you didn't, all you see now of Jordan are just highlights. Nobody is searching up a random game from the 80's/90's to watch and see what the actual game was like. People assume Jordan was always unstoppable, and if you drove to the lane you got your ass beat...which is very far from the truth.
It’s how I feel about most of them commenting about anything specific even in the modern NBA. I’ve seen people here claiming Luka is a great 1 on 1 defender after these playoffs when he has still had his moments as a traffic cone. People on here have a preconceived narrative and then just pick and choose evidence to support it.
Weird that this is always a discussion about the old NBA to somehow diminish what the older generation did. I'm a huge hockey fan and from the start of the NHL until about the 70's almost all NHL players had summer jobs. Sports didnt pay enough back then.
Difference is, no one in hockey circles says that Gordie Howe isn't one of the best of all time because he had to play against farmers, plumbers etc. he was still playing against the best hockey players in the world at the time and was able to dominate.
It’s not like West was playing against bums either lol. He played against Wilt, Russel, Kareem, etc. As a 35 YO he put up 20-4-6 with 2.5 steals.
He put up 38-5-7 as a 30 YO vs the Celtics in the finals in 1969 that had Russel and John Havlicek along with like 3 other HOFers.
West is one of the guys who would absolutely still be a stud in any era, he’s a top 5 bball mind of all time.
Wilt played well against Kareem, who played well against Olajuwon, who played well against Shaq.
The very best players could definitely compete with the next generations. We can see a direct line that connects them all.
Give them the medical advancements, shoes, diet, and training they have today and the old school players would generally still be great.
Also, you can only compete within your own time against the players who are put in front of you. Will we say LeBron and Curry aren't any good 30 years from now because they didn't play against the genetically modified cyborg supermen of the future?
I use this same logic when debating baseball as well.
The stars of the50s played well into the 60s who played well into the 70s. The stars of the 80s did the same into the 90s.
I understand the overall talent level increases gradually over time and isn’t linear but still.
Yeah it'd be one thing if the old guys got absolutely dusted by the next generation, but typically speaking they hold up well. The talent is a lot better on the bottom end, but the top guys all seem to manage.
Seriously, all you have to do is look at careers like Lebron and Kareem to see that the rising tide lifts all boats and the greats remain great regardless of what's happening with the competition.
Bill Russell and Wilt were as big as modern centers but also nearly Olympic level track athletes. Of course they dominated the competition. There is literally nobody playing today who fits that kind of description -- they would easily dominate today as well.
People who dump on Jerry west have never actually watched him play and watching highlights does a lot of these dudes a disservice. Highlights have kids thinking jason Williams was a top 5 pg and Cousy was a bum. Watch an actual game from back then people! The reason Bob Cousy and these guys are dribbling like that is cause a carry was literally called every 2 minutes back then! Watching Jerry west next to his peers is insane. The guy looks 2 decades ahead of everyone else on the floor including Hondo and other HOFers
West is one of the players from that era that had a very modern looking game. He jumper was absolutely beautiful and he ran the floor and handled the ball exceptionally well even by modern standards. He’s definitely a guy you could pull directly from 1969 and place in the league today and he’d do just fine.
It’s a weird NBA specific thing. Legends in baseball and football are almost always respected. People still talk about Walter Payton and Barry Sanders as amazing RBs, nobody says shit like “they wouldn’t be good against faster modern LBs”. The ring culture is also different, Marino is still widely considered a top 5 QB all time despite never winning a Super Bowl. In the NBA if you haven’t won a title you’re a stat padding bum.
I will give some people in this thread credit that it goes both ways with basketball. lots of old NBA players give the new age a hard time, like 'back in my day'. I dont think that happens as much in other sports either.
It doesn’t really happen in other sports. Sure there are some angry old guys but the vast majority of past pros, at least in the NFL where I know the most, give a ton of praise to the players who came after them and current pros.
Yeah it’s crazy. You have Chad Ochocinco constantly giving props to your receivers and even wearing their jerseys sometimes, Shannon Sharpe praises Kelce and Gates all the time, I feel like a lot of NBA greats are super protective of their legacy for some reason.
It's an issue due to how we rank players in the NBA. In other sports they generally go by tiers so you're not removing guys to make room for new guys in the "Top 10" or whatever. In the NBA older guys get defensive when newer players get hyped and start "passing" their childhood legends on some random irrelevant top 10 lists so they start saying their era was tougher or whatever and then the fans of the younger players start saying things like "no that era was weak blah blah blah".
That's why we should go by tiers. It doesn't matter if Steph is obviously a better basketball player than West due to advances in sports etc what matters is that they both dominated their eras to the same degree so they should be in the same tier.
Same for soccer, no one is diminishing the accomplishments. You can easily spot it was slower, tactics were horrible compared now (even in the 1990s) but the greats were still so much better than their peers. The only thing you can't really evaluate is before the 1950's since there was so little proper reporting going on, even pictures are hard to find, still have amazing stories though.
The PL is one the most self-fellating sports leagues in the world. They’ll pretend all they want that football started in 1992 with their statistical bookkeeping, but the moment it’s time to make actual history they come popping out with shit like “Manchester City are the first team in English top flight history to win 4 league titles in a row”.
Football started in 1992. Or it didn’t, when it’s convenient.
Spot on. NBA is really weird like that. Even for a different field, software engineers now are far superior at programming than people of the older generations, but yall don’t hear them shitting on the people who laid the groundwork for them to have the platform/knowledge they do now.
I don’t really follow hockey but I feel like people pretty frequently talk about how huge a difference the level of play was pre and post Gretzky. Especially in terms of speed and level of goalies.
Yeah there is a massive difference. But people talk more about the game being different than the players being worse. Gretzky, Lemeiux and Orr are still seen as best 3 players by most people.
Its just the game is so much more high level today. Much faster w/ with much better defense and goaltending.
Its also important to note how much more scoring there was back then when comparing stats today.
Like you had seasons where 25/30 guys scored 100 points. But 10 yrs ago Jamie Benn lead the NHL in scoring with under 90 pts.
Agreed, talking about the different eras of play and how the game has changed is fine but everyone still gives the greats of those eras their flowers. Crosby is by far the best player in modern hockey over his career and people still list him as like 5th best all time.
Younger gens on social media are just as nonsensical as the boomers, if not more, especially the die-hard Bron fans hellbent on convincing the world he's the goat. The ridiculousness reaches a whole other stratosphere with the most outlandish takes
I agree, but I do also feel JJ’s podcast fame has led him to want to prop himself as well. Without modern social media he’s forgettable as a player, but he wants to feel super important.
I stopped tuning in to JJs pod after the Ben Simmons interview. I thought it was the weakest interview I've ever seen. Like a flag football game with no running allowed. He didn't get Ben to self reflect at ALL and offered up excuse after excuse. After that you realize how soft and weak JJs overall commentary really is...reminds me a bit of his game.
Podcasts and most sports documentaries are pr and image management. If they weren’t nobody would participate. Come to think of it it’s amazing back in the day anyone did a hard interview, but I guess they had to. Nowadays you can just shop your pr to a friendly podcast or launder a story to shams and woj
Here’s one from last week, the verge with Sundar Pichai:
https://youtu.be/lqikP9X9-ws?feature=shared
In general, people avoid any tough interviews, you end up with something like the verge interview there because pichai clearly expected it to be more friendly and realized walking out would be a bad look. Basically need to catch them off guard
As much as I don't like JJ at times i'm not sure what you really want here. If he's hard on players in interviews for his podcast they won't come back. And sure we can contort that into "players are soft" but I think most people wouldn't voluntarily hop onto a microphone for thousands of people to admit that they fucked up in their career and behaved like a shit head, especially for free. All while still actively being a player.
JJ is terrified of even the possibility of offending modern players, so he shits on the ones that are too old to care, or dead. How you gonna disrespect the fuckin logo of the league lmao
The argument falls apart when you realize the older generation plays with the younger generations, and they do just fine, they even dominate the younger generation up to a certain point.
Like if you think about it all the current generation plays with and against Lebron or Curry and the like, they do just fine.
Lebron played with and against players like Kobe and Shaq, who played against the players of the 90s like MJ and shit.
MJ played against the likes of Magic and Bird. Magic and Bird played with and against guys like Kareem. Kareem played against someone like Wilt. Wilt played against Russel, and we've tracked back now to the "plumbers" generation.
Did at any point any of these greats of the next generation absolutely blow away their older peers? Hell no. So at what point was the game accelerated so much that you could claim the old heads couldn't compete today?
Obviously they weren't as good as the current group of players. Each generation as they catch up to their older peers add to the game, that's how progress works, standing on the shoulders of giants. But if you gave all the older guys the knowledge they had at the end of their career and let them start anew, with the same training techniques and modern advances, they would be as good if not better than that next generation.
Jerry west played against Kareem who is considered a top 5 player of all time. He played against a lot of guys who are considered top 30 players of all time. Russel, Wilt, Big O, John Havlicheck, etc.
Yup that is what drives me crazy, it’s not like human biology has advanced to some extreme level in the last 60 years lol if Jerry west had modern trainers and grew up watching/playing a modern style, he’d have his same natural gifts but with all the advancements made to training current players have
Idk why people act like LeBron would be a good three point shooter if he played in the 70s when they would’ve probably nailed his ass to the block. He would’ve been just as great back then, but great for a 1970s basketball player with 1970s skills
yep, and so many players will mention catching the last generation and being amazed at how good they were. Baron even said he was so happy when Stockton retired because "I couldn't do nothing with him on the floor".
> Did at any point any of these greats of the next generation absolutely blow away their older peers? Hell no. So at what point was the game accelerated so much that you could claim the old heads couldn't compete today?
this is a great point and is always where the plumber argument falls apart. then you realize its 90% genZ fans (with no understanding of evolution or human biology) that conveniently claim that it is either the year right after Jordan retired, or the nanosecond lebron got drafted in 2003, who regurgitate this BS because its the last resort they have for lebrons claim to GOAT
yeah and this is a real interesting take and a perspective that I never thought of. i always represent for the old school players in these types of arguments. but I never even though about this.
My argument is essentially their fuckin shoes. I know it may sound stupid but just think about the shoes.
I play pickup ball once a week. Everyone wears basketball shoes. Mostly Nikes. Nobody fuckin wears Asics or New Balance. Now, nothing aginst asics or new balance. Those shoes are great for walking or running. But nobody's playing ball in those shoes. you'd be crazy to.
But the shoes these guys were wearing in the 70s are like garbage compared to new balance. These guys would have killed for new balance. And Wilt averaged 48.5 minutes per game one season in shoes that I wouldn't even play pickup ball in against grade schoolers.
Perspective is key and yeah, critical thinking skills are important.
They had shitty shoes, shitty medicine, no real dieticians, the infrastructure of the league was shit. And to top it all off what they considered just hard fouls back then were plays that created severe injury risk. All while often working another regular grueling job.
I respect them for making the game big and being great in spite of their conditions. In the modern era, especially in America, kids that are good at basketball and have great athletic tools have their entire world bend to make their chance at becoming a pro as easy as possible.
the irony of that comment when nobody is taking the actual context of JJ's comments into account.
You don't open a book to random page, read once sentence and assume you got the full picture.
This is why JJ’s “plumbers and teachers” argument is so dumb and a lazy narrative (that I see parroted a lot on this sub as well). It’s not like teams went to the local hardware store and chose the clerk to play PG: There was NO FREE AGENCY and wages were held down significantly. To give you a better idea of this reality, Vida Blue won the Cy Young AND MVP in 1971, but also worked as a plumber because Oakland’s owner didn’t have to pay him more for his performance.
I agree with what he said, but why is it okay for the older players to disrespect the current generation? I've been watching the nba for two decades now, and it's always been the older players being negative about the current gen.
I think you’re right but honestly the older players criticizing these days arent Jerry West and Bob Cousy. Fuck, Bob Pettit is alive and hes just been enjoying his life.
Its usually people like Gilbert Arenas, Kendrick Perkins and others ofthat last two generations that do a lot of the hating these days
Gil keeps flip-flopping. Some days he'll rip into the 90s guys for thinking they'd be relevant in today's NBA and other days he'll show that same generational supremacy they do.
The only thing Gil seems consistent on is that he hates foreigners.
Gil is such an absolute idiot. I saw an episode of All The Smoke with him and he told a story about how he almost turned down his huge deal from the Wizards because the Warriors said he could keep a Lambo they had parked out front. His agent had to explain to him that the Wizards contract could buy him a whole garage of Lambos. Even Homer Simpson was able to figure out that $20 could buy many peanuts.
If anything, the very best of their respective generations don't usually shit on guys. There's Shaq, but aside from him, I don't see any other top 10 all time player shitting on the younger generation as much.
And mostly guys like perk that weren’t that good anyway. Perk is the 9th man on a good team now. And I’m a Celtics fan and I loved his game. But he’s not fast enough to take advantage of his inside d in today’s game. I think you could only use him in stretches…
Bruh perk doesn’t see the floor now are you crazy. No hands. Not the greatest lateral mover. Not a GREAT athlete. Who’s spot is he taking?
He might be a third string on the pistons. I can’t see him on the spurs. I can’t see him being an asset in today’s nba. Even on the Wizards.
pre injury on the Celtics he was a decent enough player that you could feasibly run with the 2nd string, you're thinking of OKC Perk where his knees were completely shot and he was basically a 5-10 min a game play
> “When you watch Nikola Jokic play, you feel good about life. You feel good about the world. You believe that tomorrow is worth fighting for.”
> -- Bill Walton
Allen Iverson gushes at this generation. Same with KG. Maybe doesn't fit the "older" generation if were talking players from the 70s and 80s, but it still applies generally.
> it's always been the older players being negative about the current gen.
That's just what goes viral.
It's not fun or edgy to hear guys praise each other all the time.
ESPN isn't running those stories.
Jerry West in his prime against JJ in his prime? Jerry West would \*bust his ass,\* and I don't mean a little.
JJ was a clown for his comments. Jerry West was a top tier player in his era, JJ was a role player at his best.
People that came in subsequent generations who we vaunt for being all time greats all mention players like Jerry and Elgin Baylor being people they directly took skillsets and moves from into their own game. It's so silly.
That’s twice that JJ has talked shit about NBA legends. Second being Kareem, when he called him a “one note wonder.” And Lakers want to hire him? lol.. that’s three strikes, Jeanie. He also didn’t have AD in any of his all defensive teams.
He called Kareem a “One-note wonder” when comparing the greatest scorers of all time.
https://youtu.be/fpwaXMJlksQ?si=NZR1UOVv9q7YXC8u (at 5:22). Just another one of those “analysts/analysis”
putting down someone’s accomplishments/skills to make another one look better. ESPN at its finest.
Man that's a great point. JJ Redick, who has never had to work a real job, who has had the luxury of just being able to worry about playing basketball, not having the self awareness to realize that there was a time where players had to have another job.....that shit is mad entitled/disrespectful. Horribly so.
ngl, I'm tired of JJ Reddick in general . His career didn't merit this level of exposure. He's not some brilliant savant the media or his fans make him out to be. And he's not entertaining either.
He fits right in at ESPN though. But that's not a compliment.
He filled a "niche" that's surprisingly unfilled by a somewhat popular persona in the field, which is, just someone actually watching the damn games and making reasonable analysis.
With idiots like Stephen A and Perk being there, it's a very low bar.
They favor Reddick because he had a much better career, played much more recently, and is very photogenic. He’s also more connected with current players. I don’t really like him but he definitely has a face for TV. Not sure you can say the same for Tim as good as he is.
Im not his biggest fan either but he actually knows what hes talking about and talks about actual basketball topics more than 95% of basketball analysts you see in popular media
I can understand why people find him irritating but we need more analysts / media figures like him IMO
Baron:
He talk about all this shots he made, all this practice he take, all this routine to be a plumber.
Melo:
What?
Baron:
How many things he has to do to be JJ Redick? He train so hard, he is not Jerry West.
You have so much free time to train and you are JJ Redick.
If you'll have a job, you wouldn't be in the league.
Best. Take. Ever.
I will die on the hill that we should stop playing the time machine game when we evaluate greats in sports. It does not matter that someone today is “better” than someone 50 years ago. What matters in terms of greatness is how you dominated your contemporaries. JJ Reddick in his time during his own era was a role player, and Jerry West in his time during his own era was a legend. That’s the only proper way to measure them comparatively because people only get to play the opposition in front of them. Somehow the narrative got skewed into this perception of disrespect for previous generations, as if West didn’t influence Dr. J, who didnt influence MJ, who didn’t influence Kobe, who didn’t influence Wade, who didn’t influence KD, who didn’t influence Ant Edwards. We don’t have today without yesterday, so saying someone now in some paradoxical time machine would dominate in the 50s is irrelevant.
Does everyone forget that JJ made the plumbers comment in response to an attempt to compare Bob Cousy to Chris Paul?
JJ's whole point wasn't that Cousy sucked worse than Paul: His point was you can't compare them
That's why he brought up the plumbers and firemen bit, to illustrate that you can't compare them (HE'S RIGHT)
He said something like "Let's celebrate each player for what they did in their era"
Everyone saying "oh you know why he was guarded by firemen and plumbers, it's because you needed 3 jobs to be an NBA player at the time and you flew economy or took buses etc." YES but you're projecting that you think that JJ was being negative, he wasn't, you have to actually listen to the clips
I can't wait for next season to start for hating on the Lakers even more than I've been doing since I follow basketball (and that's saying something), thanks to JJ. A match made in heaven, or more likely in hell
While claiming to stake out a "middle ground" between "all old players were plumbers" and "basketball talent is static," JJ Redick said Kevin Love is better than 99% of the power forwards on the NBA's Top 75 list. The power forwards on the list were Giannis, Barkley, AD, Duncan, KG, Malone, Dirk, Rodman, McHale, and Pettit.
I guess "middle ground" means wild af takes.
And there are people in this thread defending JJ as though he’s some voice of reason. He is the same as any sports talking head out there, knowing you have the platform, say stuff that would generate controversy, profit.
Before his platform got mainstream, he had a lot of good discussion. There still is but there's definitely more wild shit like this coming out of it which ruins it Big market really got to him. I can imagine him shitting on legendary coaches if Lakers have any semblance of success
You either die a hero or live long enough to develop ESPN brain
The Adam Silver and Ben Simmons interviews didn’t help his credibility either. We all watched as he tried to remain neutral (not even objectively neutral at that) and not step on any toes so that his (future) media career isn’t ruined.
The Ben Simmons interview being a cringe fest to watch and it being a bad interview are different things. It was a successful interview, it got to the root of Simmons’ mindset and self-delusion. I’ve never been tempted to buy back into him bc of that interview.
“Godfather my ass- Pat Riley wouldn’t be able to coach my sons team today let alone the current Lakers with how much things have changed”
Nah he’s always been extremely biased for new school players, especially players who played in his era
I mean most players are biased towards the era they played in.
The problem is JJ pretends that he isn't
> there are people in this thread defending JJ as though he’s some voice of reason. It's cause he's Larry Bird levels of clear. Guy is a creationist and conspiracy theorist as he's shone on his own podcast. He's basically Kyrie Irving with better PR and less of a social media presence. If he was JJ Jackson from Compton, he'd be constantly getting clowned on for pretending to be smart. Instead, he gets glazed nonstop. I've never heard anything from JJ that would make me think he's intelligent, but this subreddit holds him up like he's one of the intellectual giants of basketball.
"I'm not even sure dinosaurs existed" - actual JJ quote. And he wasn't trying to be funny.
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What conspiracy theories does he believe?
Even Kevin Love would never make that claim
UCLA education vs Duke education
Public school pride
My vote for greatest outlet passer of all time is Kevin Love. It didn't hurt that LeBron was the receiver for most of those precision bullets that Kevin Love was firing from 90 ft away.
Bullets was your clue. Unseld is the goat of outlets.
Pretty sure Kevin Love has stated that he modeled his passing off Wes.
I think he middle named after Wes. Kevin love's pop and Wes were teammates
Watched him for years on the Wolves. Def one of the best ever for outlet passes
Been watching Bill Walton highlights posted after his passing, and I'm not so sure Love's outlet passing was better than his.
San Diego Clippers guy, and you shat all over Bill Walton with this take. RIP.
Parents, talk to your kids about the dangers of podcasting before it's too late
Redick is heavily leaning towards new generation and so is Richard Jefferson. I don't take them seriously when comparing eras. Them two are trying to make themselves bigger than they were while disrespecting players they looked up to in their careers. Nobody ever made ads about Richard Jefferson or JJ Redick, nobody ever said "we need to get one of them on our team", nobody ever said "I wanna play with RJ/JJ", but they go around thrashing TMac, Paul Pierce, Jermaine O'Neal, LMA, Brandon Roy etc.
I thought I was being harsh when I hated JJ Redick at Duke but it turns out he was the pompous arrogant asshole I remember
I remember when JJ Reddick was the voice of reason.. bro got ESPNified
It was said that you would destroy ESPN, not join them!
I genuinely think he believes what he does, he just thinks he's unique and doesn't have that generational bias.
"This is it, everyone is just wrong, I am the Chosen One."
There’s a lot more evidence of him being an asshole than the voice of reason over the course of his life
Hes always been a self indulgent clown. Y’all just ate his shit up because it was packaged well.
They ate it up because they agreed with it. **COMPARING ACROSS GENERATIONS IS STUPID AF** There is no way to do this analysis that is fair to anyone in either generation. Baron makes a good point in this video that, you had all the time in the world to work on basketball, and JJ Reddick wasn't ANYWHERE close West in terms of peer to peer comparison. Medicine, training, workouts, flights, diets, sports pyschs, a salary that provides generational wealth, better video technology, better stats analysis. The game isn't even close to the same, it's impossible to compare. I always assume Reddick just is comparing like "if you put Kevin Love in the 70s NBA he would be 10x MVP" or whatever. Yes and there are high schoolers at every high school in america that would win GOLD in the 100ms at the Olympics if they time traveled 100 years back in time. There are boys in HS right now that would SMOKE Jesse Owens in the 100m. The same 10.3 he ran in Berlin in 1936. Compare players to who they played against. Jerry West was a fucking BEAST in the NBA when he played. He is a greater player, compared to his peers, than Love or basically anyone else in then NBA today outside of ~20 players. If you are on TikTok there was a whole trend of "we done with the 90s" of clips of 90s and 80s basketball players clanking shots, and just looking inept. It was really funny to me how similar a lot of the NBA playoff games look to that now that the refs are letting them play a bit more.
watching jerry west games, you experience this feeling of seeing the best player in the world at the time more than probably any player. I think one requirement for being the GOAT should be being the best player in the world at some given point. Jerry West was so talented as a guard on both ends of the floor and I believe he would've been a superstar in any era, given his build, brains, and work ethic. There's a reason he's such a highly regarded Scouter today.
There some old time players I don't feel that way about but just watching that clip that was on here on Jerry west you can see where his game translates. With modern training nutrition and rest he'd probably be just as good today.
Those tiktokers need to watch Shaqtin a fool more often...
He has never had any self awareness. He truly thinks that he did it all on his own and didn't have a head start in life.
He was never the voice of reason.
>The power forwards on the list were Giannis, Barkley, AD, Duncan, KG, Malone, Dirk, Rodman, McHale, and Pettit. Obviously Kevin Love doesn't hold a candle to any of these dudes, but it's interesting that this list would hold up super well in today's game IMO. Giannis, AD, Duncan, KG, and Dirk are all either already modern day or close enough to it that their game wouldn't fit any differently than it did during their primes. Barkley, Malone, and McHale were all so multi-talented and exceptional that I have zero doubt they'd kill in today's game too. They all rebounded, Barkley was efficient, Malone was a killer pick-and-roll player, and McHale was a great defender and supreme post-up scorer. Their roles would be a bit different but they'd all be killing the league today too. Rodman was a supernaturally good rebounder and defender, but was an offensive liability outside of being a lane-filler on a break even in the 90s. That would be a bigger problem in today's game given the premium on shooting and ball skills, but he'd still be fantastic overall IMO. The PF list is really a lot less "dated" than some of the other positions.
For the one guy you didn’t talk about: Pettit was obviously older than all of those players, but I wouldn’t say his archetype is antiquated either. Stretch forward, jump shooter who hits the boards hard.
Also a great hook shot! One of the greatest largely forgotten all-time greats, in my opinion
It is a shame how little people know about him. He had a Hall of Fame career. * ROY * All Star every year of his career * Two-time MVP * All NBA 1st Team every year of his career except his last year, when he was All NBA 2nd Team * Scored 50 points in a Finals closeout game against the Celtics dynasty * Led the League in scoring twice * Career averages of 26.4/16.2/3.0 * When he retired he was the League's All Time Scorer
Literally the first MVP. I'd be surprised if 25% of modern NBA fans could correctly answer that trivia question. He and Mikan are two of the guys who are done even worse justice than Wilt and Russell due to the lack of film because at least there is some great, clear HD footage from late in both of their careers. With Mikan and Pettit, we're lucky if we have a grainy newsreel with awkward game tape that's not properly adjusted for framerate/playback speed.
Along this same vein, I feel like Hondo is super overlooked. If you look at his resume, it stacks up against almost anyone ever, yet no one ever talks about him.
And shout out to him for going with 'Bob' Petit instead of his given name, Robert E. Lee Petit
He was one of those guys who was very, very talented at putting the ball in the basket. He led the League in scoring a time or two and was the League's total leading scorer for a couple of years between Schayes and Wilt. Was also one of those guys who got a friendly whistle from the refs. He was in the top 5 for FTAs for almost every year of his career. And, as you mentioned, he was a superb rebounder. Also in the top 5 for TRBs for almost his entire career. And he was one of those guys who was a tough SOB and had that dog in him, as they like to say these days. He broke his arm once and played in a cast for a few weeks. And he had a lot of injuries throughout his career that he played through.
These “today’s game” nonsense is overblown as fuck. It rings true for role players with specific skills who wouldve been better in different eras not for All Time Greats who transcend eras. You think Shaquille ONeal or Wilt Chamberlain would struggle in todays era because they cant shoot ?
I'm also inclined to believe that greats of the past if born in this generation would have developed all the same skills modern players have.
Shaq Would’ve been insane in the 10s, when small ball took over he would’ve feasted
Small ball wouldn't have taken over if Shaq was in the league. When Shaq was at his peak there was simply no path to the finals that didn't go through him and a small ball team trying to defend against Shaq would be comical. They'd be in foul trouble by halfway through the 1st Q.
People only look at it from the angle of "what can't these guys do" as if we don't have star players with limited skillsets today. Giannis's career 3 point shooting is a whole 2% higher than Chuck's. Comparatively Giannis has had rosters capable of playing 5, so the other team has to make the choice between packing the paint or letting him get an easy drive+kick. Chuck hasn't played with as many great shooters, the paint was significantly more packed back then, and he's still managed to be a hyper efficient scorer. This isn't to say that I think someone like Chuck is better than Giannis. But he'd be a great player today even if he didn't magically develop a 3 ball.
You’re underselling Rodman. He was the GOAT rebounder. Better defensive player at the 5 than a draymond.
If Rodman could catch lobs he’d be amazing in the modern NBA
He could. No reason why he couldn’t. Rodman would at least understand what he needed to do off the pick and roll and execute that flawlessly. Could he finish the bucket? Unclear.
Rodman was a pretty decent finisher around the rim, but just like Draymond once he gets the ball, he REFUSES to look at the basket until he absolutely has to.
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Jordan went out and got the guy(Rodman) who defended him best, so he didn’t have to go against him. Kobe did the same with Metta.
Rodman had all the skills to be an unstoppable lob threat. Strange that it was never part of his game. None of the teams he played for needed any offense from him at all so I guess they just never bothered trying. I think in the modern game he'd be catching lobs right and left.
> Strange that it was never part of his game. I'm almost positive it was a part of his game during his Pistons years when he was way skinnier and had more of an explosive vertical
LOL I sure didn't mean to undersell him when I called him supernaturally good. He could legit guard anyone 1-5 and grab every damn rebound, plus dig out a half dozen offensive rebounds, plus make a half dozen hustle plays, all while annoying the shit out of the other team's star player. He would still be a great player today, the question is just how much his lack of offensive skills would hurt him. He knew the offense better than anyone and was a great screener, but couldn't shoot, couldn't put it on the floor, and was only an OK passer. The kind of guy it would be hard to keep on the floor in clutch possessions when he could just be abandoned to double team someone else.
Would have to be on the right team but it immensely helped that when he caught a rebound, he’d give the ball to Michael Jordan lol.
Why didn't everyone do that back then? Were they stupid?
The thing is that players like KG, Dirk, Duncan and Barkley are generational dudes. They shape the game, not the other way around. Much like how if you dropped Shaq today, we'd have to go back to getting every 7 footer to throw at him through a game.
Every all time great could play in any generation. It’s everyone else who is better nowadays
I would not take Kevin Love over any of them.
JJ Redick just admitted that dinosaurs did, in fact, probably exist. This dude is not a student of the game. He's not a student of anything. Dunce cap wearing, sit in the corner motherfucker.
More than that, right? Elvin Hayes and Jerry Lucas were on the list too, can’t remember anyone else though.
JJ Redick is confirmed to be an /r/nba nephew
Tbf kevin love is better than Rodman.... offensively
And nowhere near his stratosphere defensively
He meant better looking. Only Chuck's more beautiful from that list.
"You had all this free time and you JJ Reddick"
Baron is so funny. I don't know why he doesn't have a permanent platform.
This is a killer line but also has got me thinking man, he makes a great point.
A lot of people speaking on players they never watched.
JJ is in that category for me
What JJ forgets is that in 50 years time folk will be saying he played with Bums and podcasters.
Unless he is a great coach and has a sustained career I don't think people in 50 years will be talking about JJ at all tbf.
"JJ PUT MY SON IN" "YES COACH"
It'll be less than 50 years. Guys like Ben Gordon, Kevin Martin, Michael Redd, and Josh Howard are all largely forgotten, despite being much better players than JJ.
This is the second or third time I’ve seen someone keep Michael redds name alive. Never forget.
Nah bro, JJ will be the bum Dwight Howard, Embiid, And others played with.
As if people will be talking about JJ in 20 years, let alone 50
No, in 50 years JJ will *be* the bum people are referring to. I can hear it now, "They was playing against a bunch of podcasters and influencers"
Aint nobody is talking about JJ Reddick 50 years from now lol
Players today played against crypto bros and tiktokers not the solid Qw'xxxyb trained players of the 2150s
Like JJ did? I’m glad to hear a modern guy like Baron Davis, who was unequivocally a much better player than JJ, come to the defense of the actual legends of the game. Truth be told, JJ couldn’t have played before the 3 point line because he would have been utterly useless as a player. A guy like Jerry West could have played in any era because he could shoot, handle the ball, pass, had good length and quickness, and had a great mind and passion for the game.
That's how I feel about most of this subreddit commenting on the goat debate lmao for the record, I'm 36 and missed most of Jordan's career so I bow out of that one myself
Doesnt even matter if people actually watched or not. Fans are fucking dumb. Knew a boomer bartender who swore MJ was a bum that got carried by Scottie. Nephews are still nephews when they get old.
Was that boomer bartender Scottie Pippen in a trench coat?
It kind of does matter if people actually watched the games, because if you didn't, all you see now of Jordan are just highlights. Nobody is searching up a random game from the 80's/90's to watch and see what the actual game was like. People assume Jordan was always unstoppable, and if you drove to the lane you got your ass beat...which is very far from the truth.
It’s how I feel about most of them commenting about anything specific even in the modern NBA. I’ve seen people here claiming Luka is a great 1 on 1 defender after these playoffs when he has still had his moments as a traffic cone. People on here have a preconceived narrative and then just pick and choose evidence to support it.
I expect teenagers to have numbskull takes about how everything old is bad, but JJ Reddick is a grown ass man saying these things. He as no excuse.
Weird that this is always a discussion about the old NBA to somehow diminish what the older generation did. I'm a huge hockey fan and from the start of the NHL until about the 70's almost all NHL players had summer jobs. Sports didnt pay enough back then. Difference is, no one in hockey circles says that Gordie Howe isn't one of the best of all time because he had to play against farmers, plumbers etc. he was still playing against the best hockey players in the world at the time and was able to dominate.
It’s not like West was playing against bums either lol. He played against Wilt, Russel, Kareem, etc. As a 35 YO he put up 20-4-6 with 2.5 steals. He put up 38-5-7 as a 30 YO vs the Celtics in the finals in 1969 that had Russel and John Havlicek along with like 3 other HOFers. West is one of the guys who would absolutely still be a stud in any era, he’s a top 5 bball mind of all time.
Wilt played well against Kareem, who played well against Olajuwon, who played well against Shaq. The very best players could definitely compete with the next generations. We can see a direct line that connects them all. Give them the medical advancements, shoes, diet, and training they have today and the old school players would generally still be great. Also, you can only compete within your own time against the players who are put in front of you. Will we say LeBron and Curry aren't any good 30 years from now because they didn't play against the genetically modified cyborg supermen of the future?
I use this same logic when debating baseball as well. The stars of the50s played well into the 60s who played well into the 70s. The stars of the 80s did the same into the 90s. I understand the overall talent level increases gradually over time and isn’t linear but still.
Yeah it'd be one thing if the old guys got absolutely dusted by the next generation, but typically speaking they hold up well. The talent is a lot better on the bottom end, but the top guys all seem to manage.
Seriously, all you have to do is look at careers like Lebron and Kareem to see that the rising tide lifts all boats and the greats remain great regardless of what's happening with the competition. Bill Russell and Wilt were as big as modern centers but also nearly Olympic level track athletes. Of course they dominated the competition. There is literally nobody playing today who fits that kind of description -- they would easily dominate today as well.
Jerry West built the Lakers Shaq and had a hand on Warriors Dynasty and Memphis Grit and Grind.
People who dump on Jerry west have never actually watched him play and watching highlights does a lot of these dudes a disservice. Highlights have kids thinking jason Williams was a top 5 pg and Cousy was a bum. Watch an actual game from back then people! The reason Bob Cousy and these guys are dribbling like that is cause a carry was literally called every 2 minutes back then! Watching Jerry west next to his peers is insane. The guy looks 2 decades ahead of everyone else on the floor including Hondo and other HOFers
West is one of the players from that era that had a very modern looking game. He jumper was absolutely beautiful and he ran the floor and handled the ball exceptionally well even by modern standards. He’s definitely a guy you could pull directly from 1969 and place in the league today and he’d do just fine.
It’s a weird NBA specific thing. Legends in baseball and football are almost always respected. People still talk about Walter Payton and Barry Sanders as amazing RBs, nobody says shit like “they wouldn’t be good against faster modern LBs”. The ring culture is also different, Marino is still widely considered a top 5 QB all time despite never winning a Super Bowl. In the NBA if you haven’t won a title you’re a stat padding bum.
I will give some people in this thread credit that it goes both ways with basketball. lots of old NBA players give the new age a hard time, like 'back in my day'. I dont think that happens as much in other sports either.
It doesn’t really happen in other sports. Sure there are some angry old guys but the vast majority of past pros, at least in the NFL where I know the most, give a ton of praise to the players who came after them and current pros.
I don't know of any other sport where the old guys act so *ridiculously* insecure when it comes to giving the younger generation their flowers
Yeah it’s crazy. You have Chad Ochocinco constantly giving props to your receivers and even wearing their jerseys sometimes, Shannon Sharpe praises Kelce and Gates all the time, I feel like a lot of NBA greats are super protective of their legacy for some reason.
It's an issue due to how we rank players in the NBA. In other sports they generally go by tiers so you're not removing guys to make room for new guys in the "Top 10" or whatever. In the NBA older guys get defensive when newer players get hyped and start "passing" their childhood legends on some random irrelevant top 10 lists so they start saying their era was tougher or whatever and then the fans of the younger players start saying things like "no that era was weak blah blah blah". That's why we should go by tiers. It doesn't matter if Steph is obviously a better basketball player than West due to advances in sports etc what matters is that they both dominated their eras to the same degree so they should be in the same tier.
Same for soccer, no one is diminishing the accomplishments. You can easily spot it was slower, tactics were horrible compared now (even in the 1990s) but the greats were still so much better than their peers. The only thing you can't really evaluate is before the 1950's since there was so little proper reporting going on, even pictures are hard to find, still have amazing stories though.
Premier League is trying its best by ignoring the accomplishment in English club football before its formation.
The PL is one the most self-fellating sports leagues in the world. They’ll pretend all they want that football started in 1992 with their statistical bookkeeping, but the moment it’s time to make actual history they come popping out with shit like “Manchester City are the first team in English top flight history to win 4 league titles in a row”. Football started in 1992. Or it didn’t, when it’s convenient.
Spot on. NBA is really weird like that. Even for a different field, software engineers now are far superior at programming than people of the older generations, but yall don’t hear them shitting on the people who laid the groundwork for them to have the platform/knowledge they do now.
I don’t really follow hockey but I feel like people pretty frequently talk about how huge a difference the level of play was pre and post Gretzky. Especially in terms of speed and level of goalies.
Yeah there is a massive difference. But people talk more about the game being different than the players being worse. Gretzky, Lemeiux and Orr are still seen as best 3 players by most people. Its just the game is so much more high level today. Much faster w/ with much better defense and goaltending. Its also important to note how much more scoring there was back then when comparing stats today. Like you had seasons where 25/30 guys scored 100 points. But 10 yrs ago Jamie Benn lead the NHL in scoring with under 90 pts.
Agreed, talking about the different eras of play and how the game has changed is fine but everyone still gives the greats of those eras their flowers. Crosby is by far the best player in modern hockey over his career and people still list him as like 5th best all time.
Without Gretzky modern hockey players wouldnt know how to maximize their movements and technique.
It’s such a stupid argument. It’s the only sport people talk about this shit and it’s solely to try and prop up Lebron for some reason.
Younger gens on social media are just as nonsensical as the boomers, if not more, especially the die-hard Bron fans hellbent on convincing the world he's the goat. The ridiculousness reaches a whole other stratosphere with the most outlandish takes
I agree, but I do also feel JJ’s podcast fame has led him to want to prop himself as well. Without modern social media he’s forgettable as a player, but he wants to feel super important.
I stopped tuning in to JJs pod after the Ben Simmons interview. I thought it was the weakest interview I've ever seen. Like a flag football game with no running allowed. He didn't get Ben to self reflect at ALL and offered up excuse after excuse. After that you realize how soft and weak JJs overall commentary really is...reminds me a bit of his game.
Podcasts and most sports documentaries are pr and image management. If they weren’t nobody would participate. Come to think of it it’s amazing back in the day anyone did a hard interview, but I guess they had to. Nowadays you can just shop your pr to a friendly podcast or launder a story to shams and woj
Here’s one from last week, the verge with Sundar Pichai: https://youtu.be/lqikP9X9-ws?feature=shared In general, people avoid any tough interviews, you end up with something like the verge interview there because pichai clearly expected it to be more friendly and realized walking out would be a bad look. Basically need to catch them off guard
Yep. Why does Dak Shepard get all the big actors on his pod? He doesn't press on anyone or ask though questions. Not that he has to.
Totally agree.
As much as I don't like JJ at times i'm not sure what you really want here. If he's hard on players in interviews for his podcast they won't come back. And sure we can contort that into "players are soft" but I think most people wouldn't voluntarily hop onto a microphone for thousands of people to admit that they fucked up in their career and behaved like a shit head, especially for free. All while still actively being a player.
It’s one of the most boring, self-important pods out there. At least Draymond’s gives a play-by-play on his pod after beating someone up on the court.
that last line… BRUTAL
JJ is terrified of even the possibility of offending modern players, so he shits on the ones that are too old to care, or dead. How you gonna disrespect the fuckin logo of the league lmao
I'm mad he had to explain himself for them to get his point, it was easy to get initially.
Carmelo is 100% lit behind those shades
😂 def
The argument falls apart when you realize the older generation plays with the younger generations, and they do just fine, they even dominate the younger generation up to a certain point. Like if you think about it all the current generation plays with and against Lebron or Curry and the like, they do just fine. Lebron played with and against players like Kobe and Shaq, who played against the players of the 90s like MJ and shit. MJ played against the likes of Magic and Bird. Magic and Bird played with and against guys like Kareem. Kareem played against someone like Wilt. Wilt played against Russel, and we've tracked back now to the "plumbers" generation. Did at any point any of these greats of the next generation absolutely blow away their older peers? Hell no. So at what point was the game accelerated so much that you could claim the old heads couldn't compete today? Obviously they weren't as good as the current group of players. Each generation as they catch up to their older peers add to the game, that's how progress works, standing on the shoulders of giants. But if you gave all the older guys the knowledge they had at the end of their career and let them start anew, with the same training techniques and modern advances, they would be as good if not better than that next generation.
Jerry west played against Kareem who is considered a top 5 player of all time. He played against a lot of guys who are considered top 30 players of all time. Russel, Wilt, Big O, John Havlicheck, etc.
Yup that is what drives me crazy, it’s not like human biology has advanced to some extreme level in the last 60 years lol if Jerry west had modern trainers and grew up watching/playing a modern style, he’d have his same natural gifts but with all the advancements made to training current players have Idk why people act like LeBron would be a good three point shooter if he played in the 70s when they would’ve probably nailed his ass to the block. He would’ve been just as great back then, but great for a 1970s basketball player with 1970s skills
yep, and so many players will mention catching the last generation and being amazed at how good they were. Baron even said he was so happy when Stockton retired because "I couldn't do nothing with him on the floor".
> Did at any point any of these greats of the next generation absolutely blow away their older peers? Hell no. So at what point was the game accelerated so much that you could claim the old heads couldn't compete today? this is a great point and is always where the plumber argument falls apart. then you realize its 90% genZ fans (with no understanding of evolution or human biology) that conveniently claim that it is either the year right after Jordan retired, or the nanosecond lebron got drafted in 2003, who regurgitate this BS because its the last resort they have for lebrons claim to GOAT
Tim Legler is the only voice of reason in ESPN lol
Critical thinking skills are important, kids.
yeah and this is a real interesting take and a perspective that I never thought of. i always represent for the old school players in these types of arguments. but I never even though about this. My argument is essentially their fuckin shoes. I know it may sound stupid but just think about the shoes. I play pickup ball once a week. Everyone wears basketball shoes. Mostly Nikes. Nobody fuckin wears Asics or New Balance. Now, nothing aginst asics or new balance. Those shoes are great for walking or running. But nobody's playing ball in those shoes. you'd be crazy to. But the shoes these guys were wearing in the 70s are like garbage compared to new balance. These guys would have killed for new balance. And Wilt averaged 48.5 minutes per game one season in shoes that I wouldn't even play pickup ball in against grade schoolers. Perspective is key and yeah, critical thinking skills are important.
They had shitty shoes, shitty medicine, no real dieticians, the infrastructure of the league was shit. And to top it all off what they considered just hard fouls back then were plays that created severe injury risk. All while often working another regular grueling job. I respect them for making the game big and being great in spite of their conditions. In the modern era, especially in America, kids that are good at basketball and have great athletic tools have their entire world bend to make their chance at becoming a pro as easy as possible.
the irony of that comment when nobody is taking the actual context of JJ's comments into account. You don't open a book to random page, read once sentence and assume you got the full picture.
This is why JJ’s “plumbers and teachers” argument is so dumb and a lazy narrative (that I see parroted a lot on this sub as well). It’s not like teams went to the local hardware store and chose the clerk to play PG: There was NO FREE AGENCY and wages were held down significantly. To give you a better idea of this reality, Vida Blue won the Cy Young AND MVP in 1971, but also worked as a plumber because Oakland’s owner didn’t have to pay him more for his performance.
I agree with what he said, but why is it okay for the older players to disrespect the current generation? I've been watching the nba for two decades now, and it's always been the older players being negative about the current gen.
I think you’re right but honestly the older players criticizing these days arent Jerry West and Bob Cousy. Fuck, Bob Pettit is alive and hes just been enjoying his life. Its usually people like Gilbert Arenas, Kendrick Perkins and others ofthat last two generations that do a lot of the hating these days
Gil keeps flip-flopping. Some days he'll rip into the 90s guys for thinking they'd be relevant in today's NBA and other days he'll show that same generational supremacy they do. The only thing Gil seems consistent on is that he hates foreigners.
Gil is such an absolute idiot. I saw an episode of All The Smoke with him and he told a story about how he almost turned down his huge deal from the Wizards because the Warriors said he could keep a Lambo they had parked out front. His agent had to explain to him that the Wizards contract could buy him a whole garage of Lambos. Even Homer Simpson was able to figure out that $20 could buy many peanuts.
Exactly. You don’t just get to take it out on any random boomer just cuz a lot of them suck lol.
If anything, the very best of their respective generations don't usually shit on guys. There's Shaq, but aside from him, I don't see any other top 10 all time player shitting on the younger generation as much.
And mostly guys like perk that weren’t that good anyway. Perk is the 9th man on a good team now. And I’m a Celtics fan and I loved his game. But he’s not fast enough to take advantage of his inside d in today’s game. I think you could only use him in stretches…
Bruh perk doesn’t see the floor now are you crazy. No hands. Not the greatest lateral mover. Not a GREAT athlete. Who’s spot is he taking? He might be a third string on the pistons. I can’t see him on the spurs. I can’t see him being an asset in today’s nba. Even on the Wizards.
pre injury on the Celtics he was a decent enough player that you could feasibly run with the 2nd string, you're thinking of OKC Perk where his knees were completely shot and he was basically a 5-10 min a game play
Grumpy ass Rick Barry would like a word
Rick Barry’s rants are legit though.
Rick Barry rants are legendary, he does have a solid point, but he is grumpy as hell
I mean there’s also plenty of older players who praise the current generation too, including Jerry West
> “When you watch Nikola Jokic play, you feel good about life. You feel good about the world. You believe that tomorrow is worth fighting for.” > -- Bill Walton
Allen Iverson gushes at this generation. Same with KG. Maybe doesn't fit the "older" generation if were talking players from the 70s and 80s, but it still applies generally.
> it's always been the older players being negative about the current gen. That's just what goes viral. It's not fun or edgy to hear guys praise each other all the time. ESPN isn't running those stories.
Tbf disrespect by saying they’re softer isn’t really in the same league as calling them plumbers lol
But they were plumbers. And that makes them tough as hell as far as I am concerned.
Idk if this makes it “okay” but that’s what old people do everywhere around the world not just nba
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Two decades is 2000. Crazy. I feel old.
Jerry West in his prime against JJ in his prime? Jerry West would \*bust his ass,\* and I don't mean a little. JJ was a clown for his comments. Jerry West was a top tier player in his era, JJ was a role player at his best.
The man is the logo. JJ had a very dumb take. I concur with you!
People that came in subsequent generations who we vaunt for being all time greats all mention players like Jerry and Elgin Baylor being people they directly took skillsets and moves from into their own game. It's so silly.
JJ better be ready for all the smoke he will get if he signs with the Lakers.
I'm sure he thinks he can quip his way out of it
That’s twice that JJ has talked shit about NBA legends. Second being Kareem, when he called him a “one note wonder.” And Lakers want to hire him? lol.. that’s three strikes, Jeanie. He also didn’t have AD in any of his all defensive teams.
Lakers legends at that
I need more context for Kareem being a one note wonder because his stat sheet seems to have a shitload of notes on it
He called Kareem a “One-note wonder” when comparing the greatest scorers of all time. https://youtu.be/fpwaXMJlksQ?si=NZR1UOVv9q7YXC8u (at 5:22). Just another one of those “analysts/analysis” putting down someone’s accomplishments/skills to make another one look better. ESPN at its finest.
That’s when you wonder if he really knows/watches ball if he thinks all that Kareem had in his bag was the skyhook 🤦♂️
He's like the most decorated player in basketball history across college and professional levels
Man that's a great point. JJ Redick, who has never had to work a real job, who has had the luxury of just being able to worry about playing basketball, not having the self awareness to realize that there was a time where players had to have another job.....that shit is mad entitled/disrespectful. Horribly so.
ngl, I'm tired of JJ Reddick in general . His career didn't merit this level of exposure. He's not some brilliant savant the media or his fans make him out to be. And he's not entertaining either. He fits right in at ESPN though. But that's not a compliment.
He filled a "niche" that's surprisingly unfilled by a somewhat popular persona in the field, which is, just someone actually watching the damn games and making reasonable analysis. With idiots like Stephen A and Perk being there, it's a very low bar.
Tim Legler does this and does it way way better. ESPN for whatever reason doesn’t know what they have with Legler.
They favor Reddick because he had a much better career, played much more recently, and is very photogenic. He’s also more connected with current players. I don’t really like him but he definitely has a face for TV. Not sure you can say the same for Tim as good as he is.
Im not his biggest fan either but he actually knows what hes talking about and talks about actual basketball topics more than 95% of basketball analysts you see in popular media I can understand why people find him irritating but we need more analysts / media figures like him IMO
All y’all bringing Redick’s level of play into the conversation are committing the most brain dead logical fallacy. Attack the argument, not the man.
Look at Magic for the opposite end of the spectrum.
Baron: He talk about all this shots he made, all this practice he take, all this routine to be a plumber. Melo: What? Baron: How many things he has to do to be JJ Redick? He train so hard, he is not Jerry West. You have so much free time to train and you are JJ Redick. If you'll have a job, you wouldn't be in the league. Best. Take. Ever.
Fuck the clippers
JJ Reddick is a clown.
"What if you had a job motherfucker? You wouldn't even been in the league." Lmaooooo got em!
I will die on the hill that we should stop playing the time machine game when we evaluate greats in sports. It does not matter that someone today is “better” than someone 50 years ago. What matters in terms of greatness is how you dominated your contemporaries. JJ Reddick in his time during his own era was a role player, and Jerry West in his time during his own era was a legend. That’s the only proper way to measure them comparatively because people only get to play the opposition in front of them. Somehow the narrative got skewed into this perception of disrespect for previous generations, as if West didn’t influence Dr. J, who didnt influence MJ, who didn’t influence Kobe, who didn’t influence Wade, who didn’t influence KD, who didn’t influence Ant Edwards. We don’t have today without yesterday, so saying someone now in some paradoxical time machine would dominate in the 50s is irrelevant.
“He had all that free time and didn’t have to be a plumber and He’s JJ Redick, he should’ve been Jerry West” 😂😂🤣🤣 Fatality!
JJ is a clown and a douchebag. To be expected from a duke boy.
Jerry West would cook JJ Reddick.
Does everyone forget that JJ made the plumbers comment in response to an attempt to compare Bob Cousy to Chris Paul? JJ's whole point wasn't that Cousy sucked worse than Paul: His point was you can't compare them That's why he brought up the plumbers and firemen bit, to illustrate that you can't compare them (HE'S RIGHT) He said something like "Let's celebrate each player for what they did in their era" Everyone saying "oh you know why he was guarded by firemen and plumbers, it's because you needed 3 jobs to be an NBA player at the time and you flew economy or took buses etc." YES but you're projecting that you think that JJ was being negative, he wasn't, you have to actually listen to the clips
Hell yeah BD!
I can't wait for next season to start for hating on the Lakers even more than I've been doing since I follow basketball (and that's saying something), thanks to JJ. A match made in heaven, or more likely in hell
I love this.
Jerry West is known all these years later and is the logo for a reason. JJ’s condescending ass will likely be a footnote