We were #1, #2, and #4 in the years we tanked last in '18-20
We could have our G League team play and still be top 3 in attendance, the team is just too iconic and Chicago is too big a sports town to not have that happen
It's not a fear of losing that as much as Jerry just couldn't give a fuck about the team and is more than happy to sit on his ass all day
The Mavs literally averaged 110% attendance this season.
AVERAGED
110%.
I went to a significant number of Tuesday/Wednesday games and while it was impressive this year a mid December game was pretty empty sections.
They are not real numbers anymore bc they just average suit “guests” and put it above seat amounts
The real fun is up in the 300 level. The lower seats are just corporate people who'd rather be on their phones than actually pay attention to the game. These unfortunately are the "fans" that keep the #continuity train going for Jerry.
Interest around the city is dying too. When I used to live downtown, I went to bars to watch the Bulls and 9 times out of 10 I had to ask to turn the game on. Everyone was just showing the Blackhawks or whatever other NBA game that was playing lol.
You’re ignoring price. Our tickets are double what they were during those times, also ignoring jersey sales, and overall ability to market stars like Demar, Zach and Vuc. Wether people think they’re overrated or not the casual millionaire with nothing to do in the city has no problem spending $120+ just to sit in the 200s and watch this team get blown out. It’s 100% about money. I legit don’t think AK has any real power anymore, just apart of Reinsdorf money scheme.
The Bulls are also a tourist attraction because of Jordan. I finally went to my first game at the United Center and was pissed I had to pay over $30 each for nosebleeds with the Raptors in town.
I look at a franchise like dallas and i cant remember the last time they were bottom feeders. They tanked the last few games last year, but here they are on the verge of a chip.
We look at the bulls and no matter how they approach things, mediocre is about the best they can do. No matter what.
Kinda getting sick of this shit honestly.
Most lightning in a bottle teams in American sports this century, that broke a long drought that gets overshadowed by Red Sox’s broken long drought a year prior despite the White Sox having a longer drought
They're disruptors. No one else is doing absolutely nothing and still filling seats like they are. They see "innovation" where other people are trying "basketball"
If you want to shake things up, you start with something small. You break a norm or an idea or a convention, some little business model, but you go with things that people are kind of tired of anyway. Everybody gets excited because you're busting up something that everyone wanted broken in the first place. That's the infraction point.
Only if it's regulated, things like monopolies which are normal in capitalism are broken up by the government occasionally (Bell AT&T, etc).
So hopefully, the serpentine Adam Silver comes and tells the bulls to stop messing around, or they might just lose every single draft lottery "coincidentally". Or put some bozo in there Colangelo collar style.
The alternative is that Jerry Reinsdorf makes more money, DeMar makes less money, and Chipotle workers are dealing with just as terrible of conditions. I'd rather labor get that money than ownership. I watch the Bulls... partially because I have had poor taste since the 90s, but mostly for the play on the court. I don't watch because I want to support Jerry Reinsdorf.
The NBA is soon to be making substantially more money. You're going to see 70+ million dollar contracts in the not too distant future. And taking money away from the players isn't giving it back to every other industry. It's just making it go to billionaire owners who have no impact on the actual product of basketball.
That is not the alternative. The CBA specifies how much of revenue goes to players, which is why there is a minimum cap space in addition to the maximum. Player salaries have practically speaking zero effect on how much owners make. In that sense there is a very strong incentive for owners to make their team as good as possible, as a better team doesn’t necessarily have to cost anything extra (barring luxury tax) but will raise additional revenues through advertising, merchandising, and tickets.
Giving DD a huge bag doesn’t take away from the owner, it takes away from other players who probably deserve the money more.
As a Spurs fan, who has seen DeMar's impact on the game even late-career, do you really think he's only worth a Mid-Level Exception or something? He has more than a decade in the league, so his max next season would be over $49 million (even if he signs with a new team.) He's going to get paid a bunch because he does help a team win and has been in the league a long time. Yes, I think OG is a better player right now. No, OG isn't going to take a deal from Chicago when he has equivalent offers from better teams.
But where Reinsdorf makes his money is by packing the United Center. All he has to do is put out a middling team and Chicagoans + tourists will provide a top-3 attendance. If Vuc is the only player out there as a "name" (because Lonzo and Lavine are coming back from injuries, if they come back at all, and Coby is too "new" for casuals to care about him), he might not get as much from concessions/tickets/etc. which do actually impact how much owners make.
Atlanta needs a great roster to sell out every night. The Wizards need to be remotely competitive to get folks in the door. The Pelicans had a tough time packing their arena even at peak AD hype. Whereas the 2024 Bulls (who were both not good and injury-riddled) had the [highest attendance](https://www.espn.com/nba/attendance) in the league. The only way that they lose that is by bottoming out, so Reinsdorf has no inclination to build an actually competitive roster when DeMar dragging the team in the 4th quarter to a .500ish record gets him the most tickets sold.
Idk why you assume I think he’s only worth the MLE. I think he’s a solid $20-25mil player who will probably give you at least one guaranteed decent year before declining further due to age. I was just correcting the other person’s lack of understanding of how NBA salaries work. I definitely don’t think he’s a $40mil player though, that’s nuts
Well, right now they've got 11 contracts on the books for next season (with a team option on Terry, and non-guaranteed deals for Caruso and Bitim... but they aren't cutting Caruso.) They have Patrick Williams as a restricted free agent, and unless somebody dramatically overpays for him, I think most folks assume whatever he gets will be matched. It will also probably be higher than the ~$10 million he made this past season, which will put them at/above the cap and below the luxury tax. They also need a backup center, whether that winds up being a case of re-signing Drummond or going elsewhere and that will definitely put them over the cap even if Williams somehow put them just under it... So, we're at two roster spots for DeMar + one other. They've got DeMar's Bird rights and I believe both the MLE and bi-annual exceptions.
If they could somehow convince a max player to not go to a competitor, they could manage to swing that before signing Williams. And then signing DeMar even at the MLE would put them above the 2nd apron (which... Reinsdorf doesn't do.) Otherwise, the deal is resign DeMar and then sign a cheap free agent who maybe plugs a hole (read: Javonte Green, come on down.) But if DeMar is only going to get $20 M, why not go to a team with a better chance of making the playoffs? It's played out, but why not see if OKC wants a solid vet? He can slot into a Tobias Harris-sized gap in the 76ers lineup and at least provide consistent buckets. He could go back to the Spurs and see what Wemby + any offense whatsoever could do in the West. And those are just the teams that could bring him in with cap space (not going into the tax.) The only upside to staying with the Bulls for him (besides not having to move, which admittedly is kinda nice) is that they can pay him more.
Yeah idk enough about the specifics of most teams’ cap situation, I’m just talking in the abstract. I think DD parting ways with the bulls would probably be best for both parties, but if they’re gonna throw money at him then good for him obviously. It’s just that I find it a hard bargain to give him $40m+, though it’s more understandable if the goal is just to put butts in seats (which is fair, DD is fun to watch and a good player in his own right!)
Yep, I definitely agree that DD heading off to a roster he can help contend would be the best for everyone. It stinks that multiple seasons that could have been competitive (not that I think they'd have been a top contender) have been derailed by Lonzo's health. This should have been a fun stretch, even though it was likely never going to involve a Finals run. Instead, the window for a playoff feature deeper than the Play-In has closed and moving on from DeMar, Vuc (if anyone would trade any younger player for center depth), and Lavine would be the best route to eventually building a strong roster. But the butts in seats angle seems to be ownership's priority, so I'm assuming we're just going to see a bit of an overpay to keep DD around and have another middling season.
When exactly has Reinsdorf shown himself willing to make a big splash in free agency post-Jordan? He has been quite content to keep payroll under the cap. And who, in the upper echelon of contracts, would be coming to Chicago when they could get an equivalent paycheck from a team in a much better spot. OG is going to get offers that are closer to contending. If Paul George opts out, he is going to get offers from organizations trying to win now. (And that all has nothing to do with OP's original false dichotomy of DeMar vs. Chipotle workers.)
We try to put out a competitive team so that when we find that second rounder who develops into a number 1, we’ll be ready to contend (highly-unlikely)
We all cheered the end of GarPax…. Little did we know it could be worse. We have no direction. Lonzo will never come back, or at least never come back to what he was. Fuck man at least I got to live the Jordan years. Fuck Jerry Reinsdorf and his inability to develop the area around United. Fuck Jerry Reinsdorf for having blind loyalty to ass lickers like Kenny Williams, Tony La Russa, Chris Getz, John Paxson, and Gar Foreman. Duck the Reinsdorfs.
PTSD from last rebuild. Last couple top draft picks during the tank was 7th, 7th, 4th while being the worst team in league for a couple years. Basically the owners got tired of losing out on attendance without a top pick to lure in fans. Cheap owner cheap mindset.
Even in that last rebuild the Bulls stayed top 5 in attendance. They’re a guaranteed cash cow and Jerry would still rather do the absolute minimum in running the team
Back in 2021 when the team had that exciting start it was impossible to get Bulls jerseys because of the demand
What last rebuild they were bad for two years and had Lauri and Lavine since the beginning, they literally didn't rebuild they were just bad for two years.
They won between 22 and 31 games for four straight seasons, three of those not making it to 30
After trading your best player and trying to build through the draft, what would you call it?
When did the Bulls ever really even rebuild? They were bad for two years but even still have Lavine and Lauri. They didn't even rebuild they just sucked for two years.
I really like Demar and watching him play, but with this current roster, it just makes no sense? The Bulls are just stuck in the middle of nowhere every season
If the Bulls trade Caruso, I'm not sure a 35 year-old DeRozan who just got his last big payday actually prevents them from finally tanking. He could be a pretty good player for a tanking team that still attracts fans and creates a decent oncourt product.
According to rumours, at the deadline the Bulls were looking for decent players back for Caruso as opposed to just picks (similar to the knicks/raptors OG trade). Seems like they have zero appetite to bottom out.
I genuinely think he's going to get paid less than Okoro will in restricted free agency
Wouldn't be surprised if his status is up in the air for months
Genuinely curious:
Is Patrick Williams a type of player that looks like he can thrive in a different situation/role (like PJ Washington) or is he just ass?
He's a 3&D guy who doesn't do much else. Switch him for PJ Washington in Dallas where he has Luka and Kyrie generating wide open looks for him, and he'd probably look pretty good in that limited role.
He’s always been a passive & timid guy to me. He doesn’t get much boards. Solid 3&D wing. Don’t really know if he has it in him to be more than a 3&D player. Hes shown flashes but doesn’t seem aggressive. I don’t think his mentality/personality is anything like PJ. It’s more like a Harrison Barnes.
At worst, Pat will have a long career as a 3&D wing. Having ball dominant scorers with no real playmakers has definitely limited him. He’s shown flashes of being a really good all around player, but with limited opportunities it’s been hard to see them consistently. As a Bulls fan I would never entertain letting him go for free because he’s a very good defender and a knock down shooter (needs to shoot more), and still has potential to be more.
Need Demar to get a bag elsewhere so Pat is forced into a larger role.
He has been a pretty hard player to gauge, mostly because of his injuries and the lack of touches due to the roster he is on. He will go a few stretches where he looks like the next Kawhi and then he will dribble the ball off of his foot 3 possessions in a row. He still needs a lot of development imo, but I am dying to see how he fares in a role with more touches and offensive load.
He’s a surprisingly good shooter and decent on ball defender but he’s not a good team defender and a terrible rebounder/low motor. I’d probably prefer pj to him but he might have a bit more upside.
Trade DeMar, trade Caruso, see if you can at least get neutral value for LaVine i.e. don't have to give up a first or just give up that Blazers 1st which is essentially a glorified pair of 2nds, see if someone is interested in Vuc/what you can get for him and for the love of God, don't draft another guard like you're rumored to with Devin Carter
You don't want LaVine poisoning your team's culture as you try to make it from scratch
Plus even if you only get back neutral value in players for LaVine, you can flip those players for bad contracts and draft compensation
Getting off Derozan, Lavine, and Caruso should be top priority. Specially with their pick being top 10 protected next year. Pushing for a play in spot and giving up a late lottery pick could be catastrophic.
Technically you guys didn't blow it up last time, you just sort of stumbled into whatever that Wade/Butler team was and had some legendarily poor draft luck
I hate this line. They never did a real tank, 7th for four years in a row is not how you tank. (yes I’m aware they jumped to 4th once).
Further, it did sorta work? A team with Lauri, Wendell, Franz instead of vuc and whatever portland’s pick amounts to is way way way better and with improvement upside.
They botched the tanking and the tanking exit.
they horrifically botched the development of the group that is undeniable...
but you're right though, they definitely were trying to be competitive those back to back 22 win seasons right after they definitely traded Jimmy Butler...
also can we raise our IQ points on these replies please?? we live in the scenario where the Magic drafted franz with the bulls pick, but had the WCJ trade not happened it wouldn't have led to Franz being a Bull.. that's not how hypotheticals work...
Unironically, that’s right! they weren’t trying to lose hard enough! Sincerely, drafting 7th is not tanking properly
To your second statement, this is semantics and but yes that is exactly how hypotheticals work. Hypothetically, they could have Franz and Wendell had they not traded vuc. If your point is that specific thing is unlikely to have happened, i mean sure. But that is, in fact, what a hypothetical is.
I still see his bald head in my nightmares, shout-out to when Daniel Gafford was HURT on the floor and Boylen waited for the other teams coach to call timeout. Actual basketball terrorist
Turns out the point of bottoming out isn't to remain bottomed out if you catch my drift...
2 22 win seasons and 3 years of top 10 picks plus the development of lavine... if you're still tanking after that you're just wasting the fans time
At no point were the Bulls even top 3 in lottery odds
So they half-assed a tank, didn't even get the top lottery odds, draft like shit & then act surprised when they cant escape purgatory
They have already wasted everyone's time for 7 years since they traded Jimmy Butler, and have done fuck all since then
Coby White has been more helpful to winning games than Lavine so I don't even know why that is worth bringing up.
I’m no GM, but they have guys on their roster that contenders would happily give up assets to acquire. That makes more sense than continuing to pay them to languish on a team that is basically statistically unable to compete for anything noteworthy.
They just seem directionless.
I say this as a Pistons fan, but what are they actually trying to do here.. Are they really just comitting to being a team where the best possible outcome is a play-in spot and a 0-4 sweep in the first round?
One of the Barstool guys had a take that made sense to me:
Bulls don’t want a championship. They want to be moderately competitive every night so that fans will show up. They don’t go all in because you have to leverage the future and risk their high attendance. Don’t overspend and waste money in luxury tax.
Every decision is to max the dollars the team earns. It makes sense, but is also a bummer.
The owner of the fucking team literally said this. To paraphrase “never go for 1st place. Strive for second and sell the hope for pennies on the dollar”
They're contemplating signing a 35 year old DeMar to 40 million AAV.
I love DeDe but that is just...way too much even with him still playing around All-Star level given his age.
Yea 40 million per year for DeRozan is just way too much, even with him playing well in recent years. The only players that are 40 million+ players at 35+ are KD, LeBron, and Steph. I wouldn’t even give 40 million to Kawhi on anything more than a 1 year deal
Going from Michael fucking Jordan to whatever the bulls have been the last 30 years must be excruciating to watch as a fan. At least most franchises are either completely useless or on the flip side have a few contending seasons sprinkled in unless you’re charlotte or Washington.
it's top 10 protected next year. Blowing it up is absolutely the move.
But our FO is terrible so let's pay a 35 year old 40m to win a bunch of meaningless games in January so we can pretend making a play-in appearance is being competitive.
First trading Caruso and Demar would be the move. They are too good to not make in to the play-in.
Atlanta might trade one of Murray/Trae and the rest of teams which didn’t make the play-in this season are not getting much better.
the bulls failing to rebuild after trading Jimbo, and failing to buy a contender to salvage their failed rebuild, all the while Jimbo has been a star for years and heled revitalize the Miami Heat as a serious playoff threat...
gosh i love how narratives work
the thing to do is bring back Zach and get Lonzo finally healthy and hope Coby continues to develop (also better keep Drummond...)
The team would benefit from just not having him around, they definitely should have traded him a long time ago but keeping him at this point is just asking for trouble
And you don’t want him taking shots and possessions away from the guards we actually want to develop
I'd offer him 2 years/$60 million, and just let him go if he doesn't want to sign that. Even with the rising cap, he's just not a $40 million/year player.
DeRozan straight CARRIED this Bulls team this season and it was an effort, for every great Coby White game there was a string of 3 absolutely woeful ones that Demar had to get up to his bullshit again to keep the Bulls just barely mid all year
Also when Lonzo was healthy they had the 1 spot in the east, so the experiment may be back on?
I just hope they keep Carushow, I like him on the Bulls but it feels like such a waste of talent. So many playoff teams could have used him.
Maybe Zach getting dangled will mature him, or maybe he'll mature naturally
I also am one of the few that believe in P Will, and I think trading Lavine and giving P Will his usage would make the Bulls better ( P Will shot better % this season ) I still think the Paw is Kawaii lite, he's above avg defense and above avg 3pt and has a clean reliable jump shot. Lavine is injury prone and streaky, i think P Will has only looked bad because he's been the last option behind Lavine, Demar, Coby and Vuc
If P Will was a 1 or 2 on a crappy team, he'd avg 25 easy and a few steals. He's immature and underdeveloped because of how many mouths the Bulls have to feed but the skills and athleticism is there for Pat. He is also an incredible on ball defender, in fact he's an all round elite defender.
I still believe the bulls with this roster could do something, but they 100% need to fire Billy, he's probably the worst coach in the league atm.
> I still believe the bulls with this roster could do something
Good for you, cos I definitely fucking don't after watching this sorry ass team the last few years
Lonzo hasn't played in 2 YEARS, I don't know why everyone is so high on him making some miraculous recovery to the same 2-way menace he was before the injury. If human bodies worked like that Derrick Rose would still be here
Idk if a Lonzo injury is comparable to Derrick Rose. He relied entirely on his athleticism. If you take away lonzo’s athleticism he wouldn’t be that much different of a player.
Lonzo has essentially been retired for 2 seasons now. Even if he makes a miraculous recovery, you're asking him to avoid a career ending injury AND return to the form he was in mid-season 3 years ago.
Look, I totally get overpaying for DeRozan on a short deal if you think he’s your missing piece. But why are you building around him Chicago? What is your endgame???
That would be a 2+1 if last year was team option? Sounds like they're open to offering DeMar a player option instead, which makes me think 1+1 because no way is 37 yr old DeRozan passing up 40m
This is based on what they offered him in the past, but DeRozan still wants to sneak the Bulls into the playoffs and understands the need for cap flexibility. Plus, he wants a final contract, not a 2 year.
My bet is that we’ll still overpay DeMar, but it’ll be north of $30mil/year for 3 or 4 years. Still not ideal, but AK needs to be okay with receiving peanuts for LaVine & Vooch plus trading Caruso to create cap flexibility.
What the fuck is Chicago doing
They’re #1 in attendance every season and think an actual rebuild would fuck with that.
We were #1, #2, and #4 in the years we tanked last in '18-20 We could have our G League team play and still be top 3 in attendance, the team is just too iconic and Chicago is too big a sports town to not have that happen It's not a fear of losing that as much as Jerry just couldn't give a fuck about the team and is more than happy to sit on his ass all day
Significant amount of corporate or group-owned seats. I've been to plenty of "sold out" Bulls games that were pretty lifeless.
The Mavs literally averaged 110% attendance this season. AVERAGED 110%. I went to a significant number of Tuesday/Wednesday games and while it was impressive this year a mid December game was pretty empty sections. They are not real numbers anymore bc they just average suit “guests” and put it above seat amounts
The real fun is up in the 300 level. The lower seats are just corporate people who'd rather be on their phones than actually pay attention to the game. These unfortunately are the "fans" that keep the #continuity train going for Jerry. Interest around the city is dying too. When I used to live downtown, I went to bars to watch the Bulls and 9 times out of 10 I had to ask to turn the game on. Everyone was just showing the Blackhawks or whatever other NBA game that was playing lol.
Talking about being top in attendance without mentioning the stadium has the highest capacity.
You’re ignoring price. Our tickets are double what they were during those times, also ignoring jersey sales, and overall ability to market stars like Demar, Zach and Vuc. Wether people think they’re overrated or not the casual millionaire with nothing to do in the city has no problem spending $120+ just to sit in the 200s and watch this team get blown out. It’s 100% about money. I legit don’t think AK has any real power anymore, just apart of Reinsdorf money scheme.
“stars” lol
The Bulls are also a tourist attraction because of Jordan. I finally went to my first game at the United Center and was pissed I had to pay over $30 each for nosebleeds with the Raptors in town.
Are bulls fans going to have a parade when he either kicks the bucket or sells the team?
As a Bulls and Sox fan … selling both can’t come soon enough.
He’ll never sell, his kids may sell the Sox when he croaks, they’ll never sell an NBA team
I look at a franchise like dallas and i cant remember the last time they were bottom feeders. They tanked the last few games last year, but here they are on the verge of a chip. We look at the bulls and no matter how they approach things, mediocre is about the best they can do. No matter what. Kinda getting sick of this shit honestly.
I was told that capitalism would breed innovation
Passive income is owning a multi billion dollar franchise and just pressing simulate to next season to collect the bag
Excuse me, that's owning **two** multi-billion dollar franchises! He also owns the Sox in addition to the Bulls.
To be fair, the White Sox are barely an MLB team.
They have won a World Series this Century at least?
Most lightning in a bottle teams in American sports this century, that broke a long drought that gets overshadowed by Red Sox’s broken long drought a year prior despite the White Sox having a longer drought
As if every one of us wouldn’t take that option in life if we could…
They're disruptors. No one else is doing absolutely nothing and still filling seats like they are. They see "innovation" where other people are trying "basketball"
If you want to shake things up, you start with something small. You break a norm or an idea or a convention, some little business model, but you go with things that people are kind of tired of anyway. Everybody gets excited because you're busting up something that everyone wanted broken in the first place. That's the infraction point.
I guess the trick is more capitalism to get the desired innovation.
Trickle down innovativnomics
That makes a little more srnse than the other trickle down theory... its generally the guys actually doing the work that find the solutions...
Only if it's regulated, things like monopolies which are normal in capitalism are broken up by the government occasionally (Bell AT&T, etc). So hopefully, the serpentine Adam Silver comes and tells the bulls to stop messing around, or they might just lose every single draft lottery "coincidentally". Or put some bozo in there Colangelo collar style.
they’re edging their fans every season
Imagine how good the climax will feel
Climax was 30 years ago
Classic Jerry. Everything is awesome except the team on the court / field. Bulls are a draw even when they are garbage.
I love being able to go to White Sox games for like $6 and sitting wherever I want tho
The brief period we had hope in 2021 was electric though
If it ain’t broke, don’t break it
I don't know...I love Demar but $40M for a guy nobody is going to pay more than $20M is ridiculous.
DeMar DeRozan is getting 40mil a year in 2024 and chipotle workers are being constantly recorded while scooping food for minimum wage 😭😭
The alternative is that Jerry Reinsdorf makes more money, DeMar makes less money, and Chipotle workers are dealing with just as terrible of conditions. I'd rather labor get that money than ownership. I watch the Bulls... partially because I have had poor taste since the 90s, but mostly for the play on the court. I don't watch because I want to support Jerry Reinsdorf. The NBA is soon to be making substantially more money. You're going to see 70+ million dollar contracts in the not too distant future. And taking money away from the players isn't giving it back to every other industry. It's just making it go to billionaire owners who have no impact on the actual product of basketball.
That is not the alternative. The CBA specifies how much of revenue goes to players, which is why there is a minimum cap space in addition to the maximum. Player salaries have practically speaking zero effect on how much owners make. In that sense there is a very strong incentive for owners to make their team as good as possible, as a better team doesn’t necessarily have to cost anything extra (barring luxury tax) but will raise additional revenues through advertising, merchandising, and tickets. Giving DD a huge bag doesn’t take away from the owner, it takes away from other players who probably deserve the money more.
As a Spurs fan, who has seen DeMar's impact on the game even late-career, do you really think he's only worth a Mid-Level Exception or something? He has more than a decade in the league, so his max next season would be over $49 million (even if he signs with a new team.) He's going to get paid a bunch because he does help a team win and has been in the league a long time. Yes, I think OG is a better player right now. No, OG isn't going to take a deal from Chicago when he has equivalent offers from better teams. But where Reinsdorf makes his money is by packing the United Center. All he has to do is put out a middling team and Chicagoans + tourists will provide a top-3 attendance. If Vuc is the only player out there as a "name" (because Lonzo and Lavine are coming back from injuries, if they come back at all, and Coby is too "new" for casuals to care about him), he might not get as much from concessions/tickets/etc. which do actually impact how much owners make. Atlanta needs a great roster to sell out every night. The Wizards need to be remotely competitive to get folks in the door. The Pelicans had a tough time packing their arena even at peak AD hype. Whereas the 2024 Bulls (who were both not good and injury-riddled) had the [highest attendance](https://www.espn.com/nba/attendance) in the league. The only way that they lose that is by bottoming out, so Reinsdorf has no inclination to build an actually competitive roster when DeMar dragging the team in the 4th quarter to a .500ish record gets him the most tickets sold.
Idk why you assume I think he’s only worth the MLE. I think he’s a solid $20-25mil player who will probably give you at least one guaranteed decent year before declining further due to age. I was just correcting the other person’s lack of understanding of how NBA salaries work. I definitely don’t think he’s a $40mil player though, that’s nuts
Well, right now they've got 11 contracts on the books for next season (with a team option on Terry, and non-guaranteed deals for Caruso and Bitim... but they aren't cutting Caruso.) They have Patrick Williams as a restricted free agent, and unless somebody dramatically overpays for him, I think most folks assume whatever he gets will be matched. It will also probably be higher than the ~$10 million he made this past season, which will put them at/above the cap and below the luxury tax. They also need a backup center, whether that winds up being a case of re-signing Drummond or going elsewhere and that will definitely put them over the cap even if Williams somehow put them just under it... So, we're at two roster spots for DeMar + one other. They've got DeMar's Bird rights and I believe both the MLE and bi-annual exceptions. If they could somehow convince a max player to not go to a competitor, they could manage to swing that before signing Williams. And then signing DeMar even at the MLE would put them above the 2nd apron (which... Reinsdorf doesn't do.) Otherwise, the deal is resign DeMar and then sign a cheap free agent who maybe plugs a hole (read: Javonte Green, come on down.) But if DeMar is only going to get $20 M, why not go to a team with a better chance of making the playoffs? It's played out, but why not see if OKC wants a solid vet? He can slot into a Tobias Harris-sized gap in the 76ers lineup and at least provide consistent buckets. He could go back to the Spurs and see what Wemby + any offense whatsoever could do in the West. And those are just the teams that could bring him in with cap space (not going into the tax.) The only upside to staying with the Bulls for him (besides not having to move, which admittedly is kinda nice) is that they can pay him more.
Yeah idk enough about the specifics of most teams’ cap situation, I’m just talking in the abstract. I think DD parting ways with the bulls would probably be best for both parties, but if they’re gonna throw money at him then good for him obviously. It’s just that I find it a hard bargain to give him $40m+, though it’s more understandable if the goal is just to put butts in seats (which is fair, DD is fun to watch and a good player in his own right!)
Yep, I definitely agree that DD heading off to a roster he can help contend would be the best for everyone. It stinks that multiple seasons that could have been competitive (not that I think they'd have been a top contender) have been derailed by Lonzo's health. This should have been a fun stretch, even though it was likely never going to involve a Finals run. Instead, the window for a playoff feature deeper than the Play-In has closed and moving on from DeMar, Vuc (if anyone would trade any younger player for center depth), and Lavine would be the best route to eventually building a strong roster. But the butts in seats angle seems to be ownership's priority, so I'm assuming we're just going to see a bit of an overpay to keep DD around and have another middling season.
The money would not go back to the owner, it would just be redistributed to a different player if they don’t re-sign the same millionaire
When exactly has Reinsdorf shown himself willing to make a big splash in free agency post-Jordan? He has been quite content to keep payroll under the cap. And who, in the upper echelon of contracts, would be coming to Chicago when they could get an equivalent paycheck from a team in a much better spot. OG is going to get offers that are closer to contending. If Paul George opts out, he is going to get offers from organizations trying to win now. (And that all has nothing to do with OP's original false dichotomy of DeMar vs. Chipotle workers.)
i'm gonna be so mad if we give deebo $40M/y
We try to put out a competitive team so that when we find that second rounder who develops into a number 1, we’ll be ready to contend (highly-unlikely)
We all cheered the end of GarPax…. Little did we know it could be worse. We have no direction. Lonzo will never come back, or at least never come back to what he was. Fuck man at least I got to live the Jordan years. Fuck Jerry Reinsdorf and his inability to develop the area around United. Fuck Jerry Reinsdorf for having blind loyalty to ass lickers like Kenny Williams, Tony La Russa, Chris Getz, John Paxson, and Gar Foreman. Duck the Reinsdorfs.
Being mediocre like they always have been. This team wont change unless the owners do. Bulls are still riding the jordan wave its crazy
PTSD from last rebuild. Last couple top draft picks during the tank was 7th, 7th, 4th while being the worst team in league for a couple years. Basically the owners got tired of losing out on attendance without a top pick to lure in fans. Cheap owner cheap mindset.
Even in that last rebuild the Bulls stayed top 5 in attendance. They’re a guaranteed cash cow and Jerry would still rather do the absolute minimum in running the team Back in 2021 when the team had that exciting start it was impossible to get Bulls jerseys because of the demand
What last rebuild they were bad for two years and had Lauri and Lavine since the beginning, they literally didn't rebuild they were just bad for two years.
They won between 22 and 31 games for four straight seasons, three of those not making it to 30 After trading your best player and trying to build through the draft, what would you call it?
When did the Bulls ever really even rebuild? They were bad for two years but even still have Lavine and Lauri. They didn't even rebuild they just sucked for two years.
Idk
I expect nothing less than stupidity
It's a Jerry Reinsdorf thing.
The Bulls front office made a whole bunch of moves three years ago and have decided to do nothing since then.
Maximizing their monetary return on their investment into the team.
I didn’t realize they had such great attendance for such an unambitious product. In that case it makes sense
We don’t know
keeping great players... such a downer huh
Mediocre*
2 time all star, and an All NBA team nod during just his 3 years in Chicago... Lebron he is not, but he's still an objectively great bucket getter
I really like Demar and watching him play, but with this current roster, it just makes no sense? The Bulls are just stuck in the middle of nowhere every season
If the fans don't give a fuck why should they, or we?
Nobody commits to mediocrity quite like the Bulls.
You haven't seen my dating life
u single? willing to mingle?
If the Bulls trade Caruso, I'm not sure a 35 year-old DeRozan who just got his last big payday actually prevents them from finally tanking. He could be a pretty good player for a tanking team that still attracts fans and creates a decent oncourt product.
According to rumours, at the deadline the Bulls were looking for decent players back for Caruso as opposed to just picks (similar to the knicks/raptors OG trade). Seems like they have zero appetite to bottom out.
He carried them to the play in tbh
They haven't made a trade in years. The player empowerment era zigged and they zagged back to 1984
If I’m Patrick Williams I would take that $16M per year in a heartbeat
I genuinely think he's going to get paid less than Okoro will in restricted free agency Wouldn't be surprised if his status is up in the air for months
Agreed. The broader market will probably offer a “prove it” contract
He'll probably just take the QO if it came to that
True
Genuinely curious: Is Patrick Williams a type of player that looks like he can thrive in a different situation/role (like PJ Washington) or is he just ass?
Well if the Bulls recently traded players (Lauri, WCJ) are anything to go by....
wow, I forgot about that Markkanen trade. The WCJ trade has been beaten to death but that Markkanen trade is also awful.
Add Gafford to this
to be fair we don't see their development in chicago
That's kind of proving my point
I feel like there's too many injuries in Chicago 👀
No it’s not. Because we didn’t see that improvement from Lauri in Cleveland either
WCJ still isn’t good
He's better than the guy they traded 2 firsts and him for
That is an insanely low bar, Vucevic is useless
He's a 3&D guy who doesn't do much else. Switch him for PJ Washington in Dallas where he has Luka and Kyrie generating wide open looks for him, and he'd probably look pretty good in that limited role.
He’s always been a passive & timid guy to me. He doesn’t get much boards. Solid 3&D wing. Don’t really know if he has it in him to be more than a 3&D player. Hes shown flashes but doesn’t seem aggressive. I don’t think his mentality/personality is anything like PJ. It’s more like a Harrison Barnes.
At worst, Pat will have a long career as a 3&D wing. Having ball dominant scorers with no real playmakers has definitely limited him. He’s shown flashes of being a really good all around player, but with limited opportunities it’s been hard to see them consistently. As a Bulls fan I would never entertain letting him go for free because he’s a very good defender and a knock down shooter (needs to shoot more), and still has potential to be more. Need Demar to get a bag elsewhere so Pat is forced into a larger role.
He has been a pretty hard player to gauge, mostly because of his injuries and the lack of touches due to the roster he is on. He will go a few stretches where he looks like the next Kawhi and then he will dribble the ball off of his foot 3 possessions in a row. He still needs a lot of development imo, but I am dying to see how he fares in a role with more touches and offensive load.
He’s a surprisingly good shooter and decent on ball defender but he’s not a good team defender and a terrible rebounder/low motor. I’d probably prefer pj to him but he might have a bit more upside.
This is one of the weirdest front offices in the league
Willfully negligent*
Sorry, maybe a stupid question but what would be 2-3 things they SHOULD do?
Trade DeMar, trade Caruso, see if you can at least get neutral value for LaVine i.e. don't have to give up a first or just give up that Blazers 1st which is essentially a glorified pair of 2nds, see if someone is interested in Vuc/what you can get for him and for the love of God, don't draft another guard like you're rumored to with Devin Carter
Theoretically if you're a tanking team and Lavine is negative value why not just eat the value of the contract rather than give up picks?
You don't want LaVine poisoning your team's culture as you try to make it from scratch Plus even if you only get back neutral value in players for LaVine, you can flip those players for bad contracts and draft compensation
And try to get a top 10 pick in next years stacked draft, the spurs have their pick if it’s outside the top 10
That would mean they were actually smart instead of widely incompetent and addicted to competing for mediocrity
Getting off Derozan, Lavine, and Caruso should be top priority. Specially with their pick being top 10 protected next year. Pushing for a play in spot and giving up a late lottery pick could be catastrophic.
blowing it up and tanking worked so well the last time
Technically you guys didn't blow it up last time, you just sort of stumbled into whatever that Wade/Butler team was and had some legendarily poor draft luck
they blew it up after the Wade/Butler stuff... the Jim Boylen era didn't happen for people to forget about it man!!
I hate this line. They never did a real tank, 7th for four years in a row is not how you tank. (yes I’m aware they jumped to 4th once). Further, it did sorta work? A team with Lauri, Wendell, Franz instead of vuc and whatever portland’s pick amounts to is way way way better and with improvement upside. They botched the tanking and the tanking exit.
they horrifically botched the development of the group that is undeniable... but you're right though, they definitely were trying to be competitive those back to back 22 win seasons right after they definitely traded Jimmy Butler... also can we raise our IQ points on these replies please?? we live in the scenario where the Magic drafted franz with the bulls pick, but had the WCJ trade not happened it wouldn't have led to Franz being a Bull.. that's not how hypotheticals work...
Unironically, that’s right! they weren’t trying to lose hard enough! Sincerely, drafting 7th is not tanking properly To your second statement, this is semantics and but yes that is exactly how hypotheticals work. Hypothetically, they could have Franz and Wendell had they not traded vuc. If your point is that specific thing is unlikely to have happened, i mean sure. But that is, in fact, what a hypothetical is.
I still see his bald head in my nightmares, shout-out to when Daniel Gafford was HURT on the floor and Boylen waited for the other teams coach to call timeout. Actual basketball terrorist
Getting a couple of 7th picks and Patrick Williams at 4 isn’t tanking lol
well you see bud... there's this thing called a draft lottery...
They didn't even maximize their chances at winning the lottery, if you gonna tank at least fucking commit to doing it
Turns out the point of bottoming out isn't to remain bottomed out if you catch my drift... 2 22 win seasons and 3 years of top 10 picks plus the development of lavine... if you're still tanking after that you're just wasting the fans time
At no point were the Bulls even top 3 in lottery odds So they half-assed a tank, didn't even get the top lottery odds, draft like shit & then act surprised when they cant escape purgatory They have already wasted everyone's time for 7 years since they traded Jimmy Butler, and have done fuck all since then Coby White has been more helpful to winning games than Lavine so I don't even know why that is worth bringing up.
I’m no GM, but they have guys on their roster that contenders would happily give up assets to acquire. That makes more sense than continuing to pay them to languish on a team that is basically statistically unable to compete for anything noteworthy. They just seem directionless.
They have a direction, it’s just different than the other 29 teams. And that direction is: PROFIT. Good gosh Jerry is such a jerk.
if only i could upvote this to the moon
Its an owner problem
I say this as a Pistons fan, but what are they actually trying to do here.. Are they really just comitting to being a team where the best possible outcome is a play-in spot and a 0-4 sweep in the first round?
They’re in the Jerry sweet spot. Good enough to generate hope. No luxury tax. Host a play in game level of competitiveness.
>Good enough to generate hope. They are???
One of the Barstool guys had a take that made sense to me: Bulls don’t want a championship. They want to be moderately competitive every night so that fans will show up. They don’t go all in because you have to leverage the future and risk their high attendance. Don’t overspend and waste money in luxury tax. Every decision is to max the dollars the team earns. It makes sense, but is also a bummer.
The whole bulls sub has been full of this rhetoric for 2-3 years
The owner of the fucking team literally said this. To paraphrase “never go for 1st place. Strive for second and sell the hope for pennies on the dollar”
Please someone end the suffering please I beg
"*You'll win 37-43 games and you'll like it!*" -Jerry
They're talking about the bulls not the white sox
Jerry: *"Did I stutter?"*
Fuck you Jerry, I don't want to see the White Sox on pace to record the worst record in MLB
I do. I want some type of very public ugly mark on his legacy.
anyone surprised by this doesn't know this franchise. This is absolute peak bulls. I have no doubt they would do this
Bulls, you okay?
They're contemplating signing a 35 year old DeMar to 40 million AAV. I love DeDe but that is just...way too much even with him still playing around All-Star level given his age.
They're happy putting people in the seats. They aren't wining. They probably aren't bad enough to tank even without him.
Trade him and Caruso and you have yourself a tanking team
They would absolutely tank without him
Not really. Pretty sure they have a winning record without him. Then again he’s rarely ever missed any games so you can’t tell much from that.
Yea 40 million per year for DeRozan is just way too much, even with him playing well in recent years. The only players that are 40 million+ players at 35+ are KD, LeBron, and Steph. I wouldn’t even give 40 million to Kawhi on anything more than a 1 year deal
Going from Michael fucking Jordan to whatever the bulls have been the last 30 years must be excruciating to watch as a fan. At least most franchises are either completely useless or on the flip side have a few contending seasons sprinkled in unless you’re charlotte or Washington.
You can't take Derrick Rose or Thibs away from us!
[I have some bad news for you](https://andscape.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/GettyImages-1244699239-edited.jpg)
Shocking if true!
Wow yeah AI and deep fakes are getting crazy right guys?
I mean I wouldn’t say they were definite contenders but those Wall and Beal teams are better than anything Chicago have had post MJ besides maybe 2011
2015 bulls had Rose, Jimmy, Pau, Noah
If we just tried shopping Demar around after his first season here life would be so much better…
I hate this stupid fucking franchise
If they have their pick next year, they should be trading Caruso Lavine and Vucevic
it's top 10 protected next year. Blowing it up is absolutely the move. But our FO is terrible so let's pay a 35 year old 40m to win a bunch of meaningless games in January so we can pretend making a play-in appearance is being competitive.
Yeah I swear I thought you guys were going to tank when you had the top 4 protected like a year or two ago, have no idea what’s going on
First trading Caruso and Demar would be the move. They are too good to not make in to the play-in. Atlanta might trade one of Murray/Trae and the rest of teams which didn’t make the play-in this season are not getting much better.
the bulls failing to rebuild after trading Jimbo, and failing to buy a contender to salvage their failed rebuild, all the while Jimbo has been a star for years and heled revitalize the Miami Heat as a serious playoff threat... gosh i love how narratives work the thing to do is bring back Zach and get Lonzo finally healthy and hope Coby continues to develop (also better keep Drummond...)
>get Lonzo finally healthy It's been 2.5 years. Even if it happens what are the odds he's effective at all?
Why would bringing back Zach be the thing to do?
selling too low...
The team would benefit from just not having him around, they definitely should have traded him a long time ago but keeping him at this point is just asking for trouble And you don’t want him taking shots and possessions away from the guards we actually want to develop
Lets goooo. 10th seed baby!
man the bulls are gonna suck forever huh. i'm not even hating or anything, this shit sucks. the nba is better when the bulls are good
No just till the owner finally kicks the bucket. Its going to be a great day in TWO franchise’s fans eyes the day that alert come cross our phones.
Warra franchise
Sources tell me DeRozan would also be happy to work with the bulls to receive upwards of $40 million annually
Just rebuild guys
Bulls: The fuck you say?
Eww sounds like work - bulls org
I'd offer him 2 years/$60 million, and just let him go if he doesn't want to sign that. Even with the rising cap, he's just not a $40 million/year player.
lol if Chicago does this, that would be hilarious
I just wanna see the bulls make the playoffs man lmao
wtf are they doing
I remember at one point that there was talk about Derozan going for the MLE.
Even if Demar was 4 year younger than today, he doesn’t deserve $40 mil per year. Lol
I feel bad for Chicago sports fans. The only decently run team is maybe the Cubs. Would say the Blackhawks if not for the Kyle Beach scandal.
Nah bro. We finally have adults running the Bears. Our dynasty is on the cusp.
Even the Cubs are mid this year and can't see them doing anything even if they steal a wild card spot.
Fans keep going, whether team is good or bad. Money printer go brrrrrrrrr.
Good luck on hitting play in exits for next 2 years then I guess.
40m for Derozan is diabolical
Still mad we drafted pat over both tyreses
But why?
DeRozan straight CARRIED this Bulls team this season and it was an effort, for every great Coby White game there was a string of 3 absolutely woeful ones that Demar had to get up to his bullshit again to keep the Bulls just barely mid all year Also when Lonzo was healthy they had the 1 spot in the east, so the experiment may be back on? I just hope they keep Carushow, I like him on the Bulls but it feels like such a waste of talent. So many playoff teams could have used him. Maybe Zach getting dangled will mature him, or maybe he'll mature naturally I also am one of the few that believe in P Will, and I think trading Lavine and giving P Will his usage would make the Bulls better ( P Will shot better % this season ) I still think the Paw is Kawaii lite, he's above avg defense and above avg 3pt and has a clean reliable jump shot. Lavine is injury prone and streaky, i think P Will has only looked bad because he's been the last option behind Lavine, Demar, Coby and Vuc If P Will was a 1 or 2 on a crappy team, he'd avg 25 easy and a few steals. He's immature and underdeveloped because of how many mouths the Bulls have to feed but the skills and athleticism is there for Pat. He is also an incredible on ball defender, in fact he's an all round elite defender. I still believe the bulls with this roster could do something, but they 100% need to fire Billy, he's probably the worst coach in the league atm.
Bulls are not doing a thing with this roster man. Their absolute ceiling is a first round exit
> I still believe the bulls with this roster could do something Good for you, cos I definitely fucking don't after watching this sorry ass team the last few years Lonzo hasn't played in 2 YEARS, I don't know why everyone is so high on him making some miraculous recovery to the same 2-way menace he was before the injury. If human bodies worked like that Derrick Rose would still be here
Idk if a Lonzo injury is comparable to Derrick Rose. He relied entirely on his athleticism. If you take away lonzo’s athleticism he wouldn’t be that much different of a player.
Lonzo has essentially been retired for 2 seasons now. Even if he makes a miraculous recovery, you're asking him to avoid a career ending injury AND return to the form he was in mid-season 3 years ago.
Look, I totally get overpaying for DeRozan on a short deal if you think he’s your missing piece. But why are you building around him Chicago? What is your endgame???
Are the Bulls FO masochists or something? Holy shit
The bulls are idiots and I fear for that franchise because the front office is insanely incompetent
The next draft is a strong class too. Should be tanking. Feel terrible for Bulls fans. At least the Bears have excitement around the team right now
DeRozan who is a beast during regular season suddenly disappears when playoffs time comes.
Nobody in history has ever averaged 24/4/5 with less impact
derozan really hasnt shown signs of performance loss. losing him because youre not willing to go long-term would be a huge mistake.
The trade market for a player that expensive at that age isn’t gonna be what you think
> derozan really hasnt shown signs of performance loss. Well except for one particular time of year
A 2 + 1 makes more sense than a long term deal, can also flip him into an trade later
That would be a 2+1 if last year was team option? Sounds like they're open to offering DeMar a player option instead, which makes me think 1+1 because no way is 37 yr old DeRozan passing up 40m
It's pretty much confirmed the Bulls already offered him 2 years/$80m, which he didn't accept, so Mayberry's definitely talking about a 2+1.
But I was Demar to get a ring :(
This is based on what they offered him in the past, but DeRozan still wants to sneak the Bulls into the playoffs and understands the need for cap flexibility. Plus, he wants a final contract, not a 2 year. My bet is that we’ll still overpay DeMar, but it’ll be north of $30mil/year for 3 or 4 years. Still not ideal, but AK needs to be okay with receiving peanuts for LaVine & Vooch plus trading Caruso to create cap flexibility.