Trading Lavine in 2022 after your first playoff season in 6 years and you could still maybe believe lonzo would’ve been healthy the following year was asinine
Last year was the time to strike
bulls pulled off a masterclass of ineptitude the past few years. They could’ve gotten multiple FRPs for Caruso at last year’s deadline. They could’ve traded Derozan for some value but let a 34-year old 24ppg player reach free agency. They overpaid for Vooch and are now stuck with a center that will be played off the floor in any playoff situation. They didn’t explore the trade market for Lavine when he still had value. It’s been clear for YEARS that they did not have a contending roster yet they still hung onto their pieces while watching their stock tank.
As an NBA fan I want the Bulls to be good because the league is funner when they are. If I was a Bulls fan I’d be absolutely done with that FO.
It's not the FO, it's the ownership. There was literally a report where last year they told the FO to decline trades for Caruso (iirc) and push for the playoffs. Basically they're fine just coasting as a play-in semi-competitive team because they make good money from it.
Is there an actual source on this? I can't find one. The Reinsdorf is too cheap to put together a competitive team myth is pretty outdated. They've been over the tax quite a few times in the last decade and beyond. That being said I'd believe it, hard to find another motive for whatever the fuck they've been doing.
It was Will Gottlieb of CHGO (June 19): “Source: The Bulls passed on multiple offers to trade Alex Caruso for multiple picks, including one in the top 10 of the 2024 draft
The reason? A mandate from ownership at the trade deadline to push for the playoffs” He explained more in the article, that people didn’t bother to read: https://x.com/Will_Gottlieb/status/1802754677332660343 https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1dkn08v/gottlieb_source_the_bulls_passed_on_multiple/
Four days later Gottlieb added: “Adding some clarity on a few things that have been missed from my reporting:
1. As I wrote, Bulls had multiple offers consisting of multiple protected firsts prior to the deadline. One of the offers had a first that ended up in the top 10 in this draft. I did not write that they had multiple top 10 picks, 3 firsts, etc. I did not write that they had multiple picks on the table this summer.
2. The purpose of the article was to address the Caruso extension decision the Bulls were facing by adding the context of what they missed on by not trading him at the deadline. I suggested the difficulty of getting same pre-deadline value when he had 1 playoff run on his contract instead of 2.
3. Based on my knowledge of the pre-deadline offers, baking in Caruso's decline in value, timing of the deal, this is not *that* far off from what I would have expected. Would it have been good to get picks? Of course. But AK seems to have paid a premium to get the specific guy/skillset he wanted.
4. I never wrote that ownership vetoed deals. Front office had full agency to make deals...within the parameters of staying competitive and not going into the tax. Clearly, AK was aligned. I was very intentional to write "impacted the front office's decision making" as in, the front office made the decision. Ownership is hands off on day-to-day.”
https://x.com/Will_Gottlieb/status/1804147501471035444
Needless to say, aggregators/reddit/twitter paid no attention to his second tweet, because there was nothing to be outraged about this time around. Do think his first tweet could have been worded better, since Gottlieb is not a hot takes reporter
Edit: added twitter
This is much more aligned with what I was finding trying to look it up. Not terribly upset about losing a pick in this draft for a 21 year old Giddey. Incredible how people can take half a tweet and run with it like that, appreciate the fact checking.
Idk why but bulls piss me off the most in NBA (cowboys in NFL). They have a big brand thanks to past accomplishments but they are never even CLOSE to good enough to getting over the hump but they never press the reset button. They just sit in the lower-middle area and waste great players time i dont get it. At least the Wizards know what they are.. theyre losers and NBA need a loser idk wtf bulls are doing.
damn i feel bad for chicago they got bulls white socks and the bears even though its such a passionate sports fanbase. not even being sarcastic i legit feel bad for them lol
The old Wizards FO was probably in the same tier lmao. We could’ve gotten a haul of 1st rders had we traded Brad a couple of years prior. Paying Ian Mahinmi 64m because KD (and Al Horford) snubbed us hurt like hell too. Summer 2016 was a wild ride for us lmao
Sure but what rush are we to trade him? We suck...we are a play-in team at best and not going full-tank. What incentive do we have to give assets away to trade him as opposed to letting him play? It can't possibly get worse.
Lavine was always a hugely-overrated empty calories scorer and to 'help him' they added two more of the biggest empty calories scorers in the league, Derozan and Vucevic. Disaster class by the Bulls FO.
People never mention that we were awful for almost a decade after the Rose injury, the Bulls fanbase was 100% on board with trying to compete even if the team wasn't perfect
WDYM keep him out there? He keeps getting injured
It's not like we are holding him out of games, he played when he was healthy and was subpar this year and then got hurt
You do realize he got surgery right? That's the big issue right now. They had a trade in the works and Zach decided to get season ending foot surgery. That killed the trade and now no one knows what his ability is going to be after the surgery.
Yes. Players can waive all or some of a Trade Kicker. If the matching salaries to make the trade work require some or all of the Trade Kicker then the team receiving LaVine would pay a higher overall salary for him to complete the trade.
Really helps contextualize what a miracle the Beal trade was for us. An even worse contract got us multiple pick swaps and Chris Paul. LaVine can't even find a trade with a pick attached.
Really?
Even pairing lavine with bridges, the nets are a play in team at best.
You'd send out ben simmons who is at least expiring for an additional 2 years of lavine?
I dunno....lavines contract is one of the worst in the league to me. Hence the bulls trying to attach picks to get rid of him, and still no takers.
Someone else on this thread wrote that he is a 25 million player making 45 million and I think that's the perfect description. It's a bad contract but he can be valuable in the right situation especially if you have a young star on an under value contract.
With regards to the Nets situation they wud basically have to be a play in team without their draft picks. Offcourse I prefer their path post trade better
It’s weird how much flack Lavine gets for the Bulls failures when the other two members of the core are Derozan and Vooch.
The entire team was built on one dimensional offensive players who can’t defend. I think Lavine would look solid on a more balanced team.
Derozan was consistently better than lavine and we played bettter with just demar instead of just lavine. Vooch made/makes a lot less than lavine. Lavine was injured some tho to be fair, but that's part of the appeal for derozan is his ability to play a lot. Derozan is just a higher IQ player with better winning qualities on the offensive end even though he can't shoot 3s. He more consistently made his shots, has a much better handle, was a significantly more reliable playmaker, and was much more clutch.
Demar will do a much better job as a number 1 type option than lavine ever would. I don't think lavine could be the 2nd best player on a championship team, he'd be a good number 3 though probably assuming he stays injury free.
Yeah lavine should never be a number one option. Neither should Demar tbh but he isn’t a spacer and can’t play off ball. I think lavine would thrive on a team like the sixers where he can space the floor off ball and isn’t required to playmake too much
Nobody is saying like DeRozan or Vucević are in some amazing winning form either lol. There is no "flak" lol, look at all the comments here. Basically eeryone is agains the results, the GMs here about this.
It's the injuries man
I'm a pistons fan and literally the only reason I don't want them to trade for him is cause he's always missing a portion of the season with injuries. Just the Blake griffin trade all over again. Mans is basically a glass cannon.
It’s a combo of his contract, his availability and the new CBA. Teams can’t spend 50 mil on a 3rd option with low availability who is a liability on defense.
It’s the money and the cap implications. If he had 2 years left at 25 MM per year, he’d be a huge asset worthy of multiple firsts/equivalents. But 3 years at $45MM per year is too much for someone who isn’t all-NBA.
Yeah but the dude is owed $140M over the next 3 years and has averaged 58 games played a year for his entire 10 year career.
If the Bulls want to move on they’re the ones who need to sweeten the pot to move his contract.
He’s really not. He’d actually have a great role as like the 3rd option on a great team where he can knock down threes and create his own shot from time to time.
But it’s just the contract, really. That’s a lot to pay for someone who can’t be the 2nd best guy on a really good team. And not just that, someone that’s been shown to be pretty indifferent in defense.
I'm damn near certain that after all this talk as if Zach's an absolute worthless bum, if he ends up traded to a team like GSW or Orlando he's going to absolutely kill it
It absolutely is a big risk but there's a common misconception that his knees are cooked. He tore his acl 7 years ago and then his knee wasn't a problem up until he tweaked it in 21-22 (against GSW, coincidentally). He still finished the season playing on the knee and then got an arthroscopy over the summer, which he returned from pretty well, averaging an efficient 25/5/5 as the 2nd option behind DeMar the following season.
The knee hasn't been a problem outside of those two incidents, this year's injury was a foot fracture and he doesn't have a history of foot problems so it should hopefully be a one-off thing. He has a tendency to pick up small knocks, which is the bigger problem imo.
That’s exactly why I don’t even wanna trade him. This is absolutely the worst time to sell low on him. Keep him for a year, let him rebuild his value. He’s a fucking 2x all star and averaged 27ppg on 50/40/85 ffs.
They’re making it sound like he’s fucking Devonte graham getting paid 45mil. Sure he’s been injured last season but that’s the only major injury he has had after his ACL tear
It’s sad to see your favourite player’s reputation get dragged through the mud like this when it’s not his fault that the incompetent FO offered him the max in the first place
Not to mention the FO decided to build around a ball dominant scoring guard with defensive limitations by shelling out all our assets on DeMar and Vooch, two ball dominant scoring players with arguably even more defensive limitations
I still believe it to be true. Some nights he’d be 3rd, other nights 4th (Reaves good games) and some rare nights 2nd. The load wouldn’t be as heavy on him, but the money is insane.
His contract is too big. That's the whole problem. It's not that he can't play basketball. It's that as a first option making the 50m max he's not good enough. And he has a 15% trade kicker
And to prove he can be healthy. I think the bulls got greedy. I’m sure a team would have taken him with Caruso or Williams. They could have likely got some picks and a decent to good player back. Now they’re going to need to add more to move him
I simply do not believe we are looking to give up a 1RP to get away from Zach.
Keeping Zach doesn't even change the fact we are rebuilding. why give up capital to move on? All reports before this have said there are options on the table but "they aren't really big wins." That implies we have offers to give him up for basically nothing, not salary dump him.
>Keeping Zach doesn't even change the fact we are rebuilding.
We're not rebuilding. We're going to continue competing for the 8th seed like we always do. Reinsdorf does not want a rebuild. He wants to keep fans in the seats.
We have 22M we could still offer DeMar. and with pat's extension, and Giddey, and Buzelis, DeMar is the odd man out. It was already rumored we are unwilling to give DeMar a 3 year deal which is what he's looking for.
Re-signing deebo isn't off the table but it isn't a big priority for us IMO, and giving up a 1RP to keep a 2-year deal at the start of a rebuild is nonsensical. Even by bulls standards
If it's true that they are willing to attach a first round pick, it would almost certainly be the lottery protected Portland pick which is never going to convey. It's going turn into a 2028 second round pick, which has very little value.
The Bulls wouldn't give up one of their own picks when they're going into a rebuild.
At this point, why not just see if he stays healthy and can rebuild his value?
Attach a 1st to move him, for what? So you can sign Demar? What a waste of time.
Detroit got three 2nd round picks to eat THJs 1-year, $16 million contract. Moved up 16 spots in the 2nd round to eat a two-year $2.5M contract.
What kind of insane assets are the Bulls moving to get off of LaVine?
There's a world of difference between taking on THJ's expiring, and Moore's low salary, and *three full years* of a very expensive Zach Lavine. He would essentially eat up their cap space over the period when they should be starting to look at adding complementary pieces through FA to the team.
Yes, he’s injury prone and on a terrible contract who doesn’t have any other noteworthy skills outside of scoring. Basically Beal without the no trade clause.
No I think this is exactly the type of player good GMs zag on and can pick up and rehab a little. The injury concerns are fair, but he's only 29 and he played 77 games the season prior. Very clearly not capable of being a first option on a contender, but that's a short list!
At minimum you're talking about a guy who can get you 20 a night if you need it, hit a ton of threes and do a little self creation if you need him to. Not a perfect fit everywhere and the contract makes it a little tough, but dude is not some 34 year old washed bum.
MPJ and Nnaji gets you there moneywise, but KCP would have to walk before the trade happens, otherwise you are over the second apron and can't combine salaries in trades. I don't think Lavine improves Denver enough to justify it.
Idk Detroit has been what top 5 the last 4 years. They got some big decisions within the next 2 with Cade and Ivey. If the Bulls are attaching picks I don’t see how that hurts them. We seen them slide in the draft
Lakers or Warriors would honestly be a great fit. The problem with Zach is that he thinks he’s a player that he’s not. I believe he would essentially be forced to check his ego playing with Lebron or Curry and fall in line to a role much better suited for him.
Keep him and trade at the deadline next season, there isn't a universe in the world you guys will convince me he's such a bad asset we have to give up picks to get off his contract. As a second option, particularly in an off-ball roll, he'd be in incredible player
Maybe if there were 1-2 years left on Lavine's deal. $47m/yr is a big number to be committed to for 3 years if it doesn't work out. For how conservative our FO has been the past 2 years...it doesn't make sense for a move this risky to be the one they put their chips in on.
That's Detroit's music. Also wouldn't be opposed to the Spurs taking him cause they need shooting (especially if they're giving him away and attaching a pick), but theyre way too conservative to take on his contract, even through a rebuild
All this talk that he’s a bum is crazy. The guy can score from all 3 levels. I got a feeling if he does get traded to a good team it will be exactly like Porzingus. He’ll make a big impact and fans will be wondering why picks were attached.
The difference is KP accepted his role and plays the entire game. Offense defense rebounding. Zach doesn’t know how to accept his role and things he should be the number one shot creator and can’t work off ball as has been seen many time. Just look at the runs the bulls made when lavine was hurt and Coby got the starts
makes no sense to trade him now. the team isn't bad enough to tank. the franchise doesn't want to tank. they should just keep him for another year at this point.
I really don't see much of a reason to give up assets to trade Lavine. Unless there's potential generational player in the draft it just seems better just to eat his salary for a few years and then let him go.
Only player to equal Zach’s scoring and efficiency the last couple of years is Curry. I really think people are going to be shocked how good he is if he’s traded to a good team. But he’s contract is too much especially in the new CBA. 3 years ago every all star level player got the biggest contract possible and I think teams are starting to realize that isn’t smart
Bull FO is so incompetent it's insane. They hold when there is a market for someone and then get left holding the bag. Idk why they didn't use Caruso to unload the contract.
If they think Giddey is a key piece of their future it probably is more important.
But moving LaVine and giving up draft capital in the deal doesn't make any sense for a rebuilding team so I'm not sure the strategy here.
That’s exactly why I don’t even wanna trade him. This is absolutely the worst time to sell low on him. Keep him for a year, let him rebuild his value. He’s a fucking 2x all star and averaged 27ppg on 50/40/85 ffs.
They’re making it sound like he’s fucking Devonte graham getting paid 45mil. Sure he’s been injured last season but that’s the only major injury he has had after his ACL tear
It’s sad to see your favourite player’s reputation get dragged through the mud like this when it’s not his fault that the incompetent FO offered him the max in the first place
In less than 48 hours Bobby Marks went from saying "I doubt you could trade him even if you attached a frp" to "everyone's telling me they're trying to attach a frp and it isn't working!" I just don't think this is true lol.
He’s not getting moved this offseason. He’s just not worth $47mil a yr. No contending team is gonna pay that for a “3rd star.” Everyone around the league saw how bad that went in PHX with the new 2nd apron rules. If Zach was making $20-$30mil a yr he would have a trade market, even with all his recent injury struggles imo. If he was on the Poole, Hero, Anf, etc type of contract I’d be cool taking a flier on him in a salary dump. But he’s not, he’s more injured than them & honestly not really much better as a player than they are.
Even 2-3 years ago the market for Lavine would have been huge.
Trading Lavine in 2022 after your first playoff season in 6 years and you could still maybe believe lonzo would’ve been healthy the following year was asinine Last year was the time to strike
bulls pulled off a masterclass of ineptitude the past few years. They could’ve gotten multiple FRPs for Caruso at last year’s deadline. They could’ve traded Derozan for some value but let a 34-year old 24ppg player reach free agency. They overpaid for Vooch and are now stuck with a center that will be played off the floor in any playoff situation. They didn’t explore the trade market for Lavine when he still had value. It’s been clear for YEARS that they did not have a contending roster yet they still hung onto their pieces while watching their stock tank. As an NBA fan I want the Bulls to be good because the league is funner when they are. If I was a Bulls fan I’d be absolutely done with that FO.
It's not the FO, it's the ownership. There was literally a report where last year they told the FO to decline trades for Caruso (iirc) and push for the playoffs. Basically they're fine just coasting as a play-in semi-competitive team because they make good money from it.
Is there an actual source on this? I can't find one. The Reinsdorf is too cheap to put together a competitive team myth is pretty outdated. They've been over the tax quite a few times in the last decade and beyond. That being said I'd believe it, hard to find another motive for whatever the fuck they've been doing.
It was Will Gottlieb of CHGO (June 19): “Source: The Bulls passed on multiple offers to trade Alex Caruso for multiple picks, including one in the top 10 of the 2024 draft The reason? A mandate from ownership at the trade deadline to push for the playoffs” He explained more in the article, that people didn’t bother to read: https://x.com/Will_Gottlieb/status/1802754677332660343 https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1dkn08v/gottlieb_source_the_bulls_passed_on_multiple/ Four days later Gottlieb added: “Adding some clarity on a few things that have been missed from my reporting: 1. As I wrote, Bulls had multiple offers consisting of multiple protected firsts prior to the deadline. One of the offers had a first that ended up in the top 10 in this draft. I did not write that they had multiple top 10 picks, 3 firsts, etc. I did not write that they had multiple picks on the table this summer. 2. The purpose of the article was to address the Caruso extension decision the Bulls were facing by adding the context of what they missed on by not trading him at the deadline. I suggested the difficulty of getting same pre-deadline value when he had 1 playoff run on his contract instead of 2. 3. Based on my knowledge of the pre-deadline offers, baking in Caruso's decline in value, timing of the deal, this is not *that* far off from what I would have expected. Would it have been good to get picks? Of course. But AK seems to have paid a premium to get the specific guy/skillset he wanted. 4. I never wrote that ownership vetoed deals. Front office had full agency to make deals...within the parameters of staying competitive and not going into the tax. Clearly, AK was aligned. I was very intentional to write "impacted the front office's decision making" as in, the front office made the decision. Ownership is hands off on day-to-day.” https://x.com/Will_Gottlieb/status/1804147501471035444 Needless to say, aggregators/reddit/twitter paid no attention to his second tweet, because there was nothing to be outraged about this time around. Do think his first tweet could have been worded better, since Gottlieb is not a hot takes reporter Edit: added twitter
This is much more aligned with what I was finding trying to look it up. Not terribly upset about losing a pick in this draft for a 21 year old Giddey. Incredible how people can take half a tweet and run with it like that, appreciate the fact checking.
Im just upset they wasted a few fantastic years with DeMar🥲
Same, he doesnt get enough credit for how good he is and now hes maybe got one or two good years left
Don't have to worry about Vuc being played off the floor if you never make the playoffs. Also, FO isn't the biggest problem. It's the owner
It's hard to blame the FO when ownership keeps pushing them to try for the playoffs. Team should have rebuilt years ago.
Bulls FO and waiting far too long to pull the trigger on trades, name a more iconic duo
Redditors and "name a more iconic duo" comments.
Wouldn't be Reddit if every single joke wasn't run straight into the ground.
I would also run this guy's wife into the ground
Ah, the old [reddit switcharoo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ)
Hold my Narwhals, I'm going in
Don’t waste time he did it wrong. Not suppose to lead to *that.* It’s suppose to take us into the Reddit rabbit hole. Smh
Thank you kind stranger!
LeBeating LeDead LeHorse.
Wizards and waiting a year too long to tank. I.e choosing to tank a year after Wemby lol.
Idk why but bulls piss me off the most in NBA (cowboys in NFL). They have a big brand thanks to past accomplishments but they are never even CLOSE to good enough to getting over the hump but they never press the reset button. They just sit in the lower-middle area and waste great players time i dont get it. At least the Wizards know what they are.. theyre losers and NBA need a loser idk wtf bulls are doing.
It’s the owner. Same guy who owns the White Sox in baseball.
damn i feel bad for chicago they got bulls white socks and the bears even though its such a passionate sports fanbase. not even being sarcastic i legit feel bad for them lol
Poles & the Bears have been running a pretty solid operation for the last couple years. They are set up for big time success.
What he say fuck me for
TBF the Knicks held that role in the NBA for like 20 years until last season.
Masai and waiting too long to make a trade.
I read that as Messi at first
Ah yes, who can forget the war crimes Masai committed in the past few years
Last offseason. By the time LaVine played 20 or 30 games, he had already killed his trade market.
The old Wizards FO was probably in the same tier lmao. We could’ve gotten a haul of 1st rders had we traded Brad a couple of years prior. Paying Ian Mahinmi 64m because KD (and Al Horford) snubbed us hurt like hell too. Summer 2016 was a wild ride for us lmao
Its a garbage decision to look to trade him now. Let him play until the trade deadline to recoup some damn value man...
So the exact same thing that happened last year, may I remind you that he got injured trying to “recoup some value”?
Sure but what rush are we to trade him? We suck...we are a play-in team at best and not going full-tank. What incentive do we have to give assets away to trade him as opposed to letting him play? It can't possibly get worse.
That makes so much sense that the Bulls FO is probably going to do the exactly opposite
You’re right. Garbage FO and ownership
He can't get less value though. They're already offering a pick to salary dump him and no one will bite.
People were criticizing Chicago for not giving Lavine any help so they went out and overpaid for Vucevic.
Lavine was always a hugely-overrated empty calories scorer and to 'help him' they added two more of the biggest empty calories scorers in the league, Derozan and Vucevic. Disaster class by the Bulls FO.
i mean this in the most sincere way possible, i appreciate that the bulls at least tried if not for injuries they’d be in the mix in the east
People never mention that we were awful for almost a decade after the Rose injury, the Bulls fanbase was 100% on board with trying to compete even if the team wasn't perfect
They needed to keep him out there, instead they tanked his value. Just basic dumb GM stuff.
WDYM keep him out there? He keeps getting injured It's not like we are holding him out of games, he played when he was healthy and was subpar this year and then got hurt
Zach tanked his own value. Bro requested a trade, performed subpar, then got hurt.
You do realize he got surgery right? That's the big issue right now. They had a trade in the works and Zach decided to get season ending foot surgery. That killed the trade and now no one knows what his ability is going to be after the surgery.
A trade rumor to the Pistons will make you get surgery and tank your value quick.
If they had kept Weaver and Gore it wouldn't have shocked me if their draft pick shot himself in the foot to avoid going like they used to do in Nam.
Even earlier this season pretty sure D’lo, Rui, JHS for Lavine was on the table or D’lo Rui JHS + FRP for Lavine and Caruso
And yet, infinitely better than the offers they're getting now. Which are none lol.
Lol these aren't even good packages
At least these packages don’t require the Bulls tacking on their own FRP just to get off Lavine.
Better than attaching a FRP to get off Lavine.
Wdym? Those are great packages for the lakers 😂
Bro do not attach a fucking first rounder to dump Lavine, just keep him at that point
Maybe the thought is, because of the salary that has to come back in that first rounder could bring back positive value
He's not THAT bad damn
Problem is like 45m for 45 games
Also 15% trade kicker
Doesn't the trade kicker get waived if they ask out? Aka what happened with Beal.
Yes..he can waive the trade kicker. I believe that's what John Wall did and AD
Doesn't it still affect the receiving teams cap, and amount of outgoing salary needed?
Yes. Players can waive all or some of a Trade Kicker. If the matching salaries to make the trade work require some or all of the Trade Kicker then the team receiving LaVine would pay a higher overall salary for him to complete the trade.
The team that trades the player pays the trade kicker (Bulls)
the bulls will pay the kicker anyways.
Really helps contextualize what a miracle the Beal trade was for us. An even worse contract got us multiple pick swaps and Chris Paul. LaVine can't even find a trade with a pick attached.
Phoenix feel the pain now.
With that contract he is that bad Who wants to pay lavine 45mil a year for the next 3 years?
Would have to be a good team with a bad expiring salary. I wouldn't hate it for the Nets pre Bridges trade
Really? Even pairing lavine with bridges, the nets are a play in team at best. You'd send out ben simmons who is at least expiring for an additional 2 years of lavine? I dunno....lavines contract is one of the worst in the league to me. Hence the bulls trying to attach picks to get rid of him, and still no takers.
Someone else on this thread wrote that he is a 25 million player making 45 million and I think that's the perfect description. It's a bad contract but he can be valuable in the right situation especially if you have a young star on an under value contract. With regards to the Nets situation they wud basically have to be a play in team without their draft picks. Offcourse I prefer their path post trade better
A bad team that will absorb the contract in exchange for a pick.
It’s weird how much flack Lavine gets for the Bulls failures when the other two members of the core are Derozan and Vooch. The entire team was built on one dimensional offensive players who can’t defend. I think Lavine would look solid on a more balanced team.
Derozan was consistently better than lavine and we played bettter with just demar instead of just lavine. Vooch made/makes a lot less than lavine. Lavine was injured some tho to be fair, but that's part of the appeal for derozan is his ability to play a lot. Derozan is just a higher IQ player with better winning qualities on the offensive end even though he can't shoot 3s. He more consistently made his shots, has a much better handle, was a significantly more reliable playmaker, and was much more clutch. Demar will do a much better job as a number 1 type option than lavine ever would. I don't think lavine could be the 2nd best player on a championship team, he'd be a good number 3 though probably assuming he stays injury free.
Yeah lavine should never be a number one option. Neither should Demar tbh but he isn’t a spacer and can’t play off ball. I think lavine would thrive on a team like the sixers where he can space the floor off ball and isn’t required to playmake too much
Hahahaha, I’m just imagining the Sixers finally getting out of that Tobias Harris contract only to immediately pay Lavine 45mil to be a third option.
Ironically the last season they were all healthy (the year before this past season) they were a top 5 defense and a bottom 6 offense
Depending on how much DeRozan gets in FA, there’s a chance LaVine makes as much or more by himself than those two combined next year
Nobody is saying like DeRozan or Vucević are in some amazing winning form either lol. There is no "flak" lol, look at all the comments here. Basically eeryone is agains the results, the GMs here about this.
He has a 200mil left and a broken foot.
It's the injuries man I'm a pistons fan and literally the only reason I don't want them to trade for him is cause he's always missing a portion of the season with injuries. Just the Blake griffin trade all over again. Mans is basically a glass cannon.
It’s a combo of his contract, his availability and the new CBA. Teams can’t spend 50 mil on a 3rd option with low availability who is a liability on defense.
He's the 16th highest paid player in the league and isn't a top 50 player.
It’s the money and the cap implications. If he had 2 years left at 25 MM per year, he’d be a huge asset worthy of multiple firsts/equivalents. But 3 years at $45MM per year is too much for someone who isn’t all-NBA.
Age, injury history, contract, and skillset make him an awful player to trade for as long as the Salary Cap exists.
Yeah but the dude is owed $140M over the next 3 years and has averaged 58 games played a year for his entire 10 year career. If the Bulls want to move on they’re the ones who need to sweeten the pot to move his contract.
He’s really not. He’d actually have a great role as like the 3rd option on a great team where he can knock down threes and create his own shot from time to time. But it’s just the contract, really. That’s a lot to pay for someone who can’t be the 2nd best guy on a really good team. And not just that, someone that’s been shown to be pretty indifferent in defense.
It must be pretty disheartening, being a franchise player that no other team wants. At least Aaron Gordon accepted a lesser role when he left Orlando.
the contract is tho
At that number he has to be one of your two best players. But if that’s true, you are probably bad. So…what’s the point of having him?
I'm damn near certain that after all this talk as if Zach's an absolute worthless bum, if he ends up traded to a team like GSW or Orlando he's going to absolutely kill it
I wouldn't hate it if I thought he could stay healthy.
His health is a big if after all.
It absolutely is a big risk but there's a common misconception that his knees are cooked. He tore his acl 7 years ago and then his knee wasn't a problem up until he tweaked it in 21-22 (against GSW, coincidentally). He still finished the season playing on the knee and then got an arthroscopy over the summer, which he returned from pretty well, averaging an efficient 25/5/5 as the 2nd option behind DeMar the following season. The knee hasn't been a problem outside of those two incidents, this year's injury was a foot fracture and he doesn't have a history of foot problems so it should hopefully be a one-off thing. He has a tendency to pick up small knocks, which is the bigger problem imo.
Lower body injuries take their toll, though. They add up and are all somewhat intertwined.
If we could keep Otto Porter Jr healthy, fuck it, we can fix him.
That’s exactly why I don’t even wanna trade him. This is absolutely the worst time to sell low on him. Keep him for a year, let him rebuild his value. He’s a fucking 2x all star and averaged 27ppg on 50/40/85 ffs. They’re making it sound like he’s fucking Devonte graham getting paid 45mil. Sure he’s been injured last season but that’s the only major injury he has had after his ACL tear It’s sad to see your favourite player’s reputation get dragged through the mud like this when it’s not his fault that the incompetent FO offered him the max in the first place
Not to mention the FO decided to build around a ball dominant scoring guard with defensive limitations by shelling out all our assets on DeMar and Vooch, two ball dominant scoring players with arguably even more defensive limitations
I was afraid the Lakers would get him. I think he'd be awesome as a third option behind LeBron & AD.
I still believe it to be true. Some nights he’d be 3rd, other nights 4th (Reaves good games) and some rare nights 2nd. The load wouldn’t be as heavy on him, but the money is insane.
Could do something like Russell + Hachimura to match salary. And then it’s just whatever picks to make that fair. Probably not too far off.
He’s overpaid but I still believe the lakers should trade for him ESPECIALLY since Bron is taking a pay cut and you wouldn’t have give any picks up
His contract is too big. That's the whole problem. It's not that he can't play basketball. It's that as a first option making the 50m max he's not good enough. And he has a 15% trade kicker
Trade kickers get waived 95% of the time but yeah the issue is you’re paying a guy best-player money when his optimal role is a Malik Monk type.
His salary is way too high
I think most of the talk is about the contract. It's bad.
At this point that's all warriors fan can hope for lol
He'd be incredible if he fully bought into the Steph system
If Lavine & PG somehow go to Orlando, I’m rooting for the Magic next year
I feel Lavine just needs a change of scenery
And to prove he can be healthy. I think the bulls got greedy. I’m sure a team would have taken him with Caruso or Williams. They could have likely got some picks and a decent to good player back. Now they’re going to need to add more to move him
Zach Lavine you are now a golden state warrior!
what other option do the Warriors have at this point? at least you can get a pick or two out of it and you're stuck with a bad contract either way
Trade Draymond for Bronny
I simply do not believe we are looking to give up a 1RP to get away from Zach. Keeping Zach doesn't even change the fact we are rebuilding. why give up capital to move on? All reports before this have said there are options on the table but "they aren't really big wins." That implies we have offers to give him up for basically nothing, not salary dump him.
Giving up a first to trade him sounds out of character for this FO. I think they'd rather play him than take a bad deal.
If I had to guess, the pick is that Portland pick and Bobby is gassing it up for views
>Keeping Zach doesn't even change the fact we are rebuilding. We're not rebuilding. We're going to continue competing for the 8th seed like we always do. Reinsdorf does not want a rebuild. He wants to keep fans in the seats.
Because it impacts your ability to re-sign Derozan
We have 22M we could still offer DeMar. and with pat's extension, and Giddey, and Buzelis, DeMar is the odd man out. It was already rumored we are unwilling to give DeMar a 3 year deal which is what he's looking for. Re-signing deebo isn't off the table but it isn't a big priority for us IMO, and giving up a 1RP to keep a 2-year deal at the start of a rebuild is nonsensical. Even by bulls standards
Why would we want Demar
Nah that man needs to walk. Love Demar but we need to tank.
All indications point to us not re-signing DeMar That man is gone and we are trying to rebuild
If it's true that they are willing to attach a first round pick, it would almost certainly be the lottery protected Portland pick which is never going to convey. It's going turn into a 2028 second round pick, which has very little value. The Bulls wouldn't give up one of their own picks when they're going into a rebuild.
Am I crazy for thinking LaVine could be a decent option to kick the tires on?
How many Bulls games have you watched over the last 2 seasons? Be completely honest with me now pal
Barely any. Only when they play the Heat. I know he's fallen to the wayside recently with Coby's emergence.
He'd have to be healthy to fall by the wayside. Hasn't even played.
He did have a nasty case of “shit, I’m going Detroit”-itis. Can come on very suddenly and very seriously
At this point, why not just see if he stays healthy and can rebuild his value? Attach a 1st to move him, for what? So you can sign Demar? What a waste of time.
"waste of time" is the Bulls' front office philosophy
Detroit should be all over this. If they can get picks to take him they absolutely should consider it.
Detroit got three 2nd round picks to eat THJs 1-year, $16 million contract. Moved up 16 spots in the 2nd round to eat a two-year $2.5M contract. What kind of insane assets are the Bulls moving to get off of LaVine?
There's a world of difference between taking on THJ's expiring, and Moore's low salary, and *three full years* of a very expensive Zach Lavine. He would essentially eat up their cap space over the period when they should be starting to look at adding complementary pieces through FA to the team.
Yes, he’s injury prone and on a terrible contract who doesn’t have any other noteworthy skills outside of scoring. Basically Beal without the no trade clause.
Well Washington didn’t have to attach assets on Beal to trade him
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Tank commander good! He helped them lose this season so it’s fine and his contract is only modestly around 30 million for the next 3 years
No I think this is exactly the type of player good GMs zag on and can pick up and rehab a little. The injury concerns are fair, but he's only 29 and he played 77 games the season prior. Very clearly not capable of being a first option on a contender, but that's a short list! At minimum you're talking about a guy who can get you 20 a night if you need it, hit a ton of threes and do a little self creation if you need him to. Not a perfect fit everywhere and the contract makes it a little tough, but dude is not some 34 year old washed bum.
Not for $50M a year
Feel like we could use Zach Lavine
There's no way to make the salary work
MPJ and Nnaji gets you there moneywise, but KCP would have to walk before the trade happens, otherwise you are over the second apron and can't combine salaries in trades. I don't think Lavine improves Denver enough to justify it.
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detroit deal was ruined when he got surgery. gs makes most sense now they want value from cp3.
Warriors are perfect place. Paul plus filler for Lavine and a pick. Lavine will probably have an all star year on warriors.
Idk Detroit has been what top 5 the last 4 years. They got some big decisions within the next 2 with Cade and Ivey. If the Bulls are attaching picks I don’t see how that hurts them. We seen them slide in the draft
Lakers or Warriors would honestly be a great fit. The problem with Zach is that he thinks he’s a player that he’s not. I believe he would essentially be forced to check his ego playing with Lebron or Curry and fall in line to a role much better suited for him.
He's way too expensive to be traded to the Lakers with the other holes they need to fill.
Also can he just maybe stay in the eastern conference? Once again all the talent is moving to a Western conference arms race..
Keep him and trade at the deadline next season, there isn't a universe in the world you guys will convince me he's such a bad asset we have to give up picks to get off his contract. As a second option, particularly in an off-ball roll, he'd be in incredible player
Maybe the guy they sent away for a 1v1 swap would've helped him get off Lavine's deal.
Why would you take cap space over a young player when you’re building for the future?
Yeah they have no idea what they’re talking about lmao
It’s a Warriors fan who’s salty they didn’t get Caruso in a Lavine salary dump for CP3’s washed ass
True
The warriors or kings should take a stab at this
I think after we got Monk back there was very little chance we went for Zach. Then after drafting Carter it makes zero sense to add Lavine
I just look at it at worst you get a significant upgrade over barnes and huerter combined
Maybe if there were 1-2 years left on Lavine's deal. $47m/yr is a big number to be committed to for 3 years if it doesn't work out. For how conservative our FO has been the past 2 years...it doesn't make sense for a move this risky to be the one they put their chips in on.
That's Detroit's music. Also wouldn't be opposed to the Spurs taking him cause they need shooting (especially if they're giving him away and attaching a pick), but theyre way too conservative to take on his contract, even through a rebuild
Remove the 2025 pick protections and we'd think about it lol.
I have a feeling that he will end up in GSW
All this talk that he’s a bum is crazy. The guy can score from all 3 levels. I got a feeling if he does get traded to a good team it will be exactly like Porzingus. He’ll make a big impact and fans will be wondering why picks were attached.
The difference is KP accepted his role and plays the entire game. Offense defense rebounding. Zach doesn’t know how to accept his role and things he should be the number one shot creator and can’t work off ball as has been seen many time. Just look at the runs the bulls made when lavine was hurt and Coby got the starts
If he was paid 30 mil a year like Porzingus every contender would be interested. He's paid as much as like AD, Luka, and Giannis lol
makes no sense to trade him now. the team isn't bad enough to tank. the franchise doesn't want to tank. they should just keep him for another year at this point.
I really don't see much of a reason to give up assets to trade Lavine. Unless there's potential generational player in the draft it just seems better just to eat his salary for a few years and then let him go.
Don't know where Zach is at with health, but he was an explosive player who was fun to watch. Hope he gets to a good situation and kills it.
Only player to equal Zach’s scoring and efficiency the last couple of years is Curry. I really think people are going to be shocked how good he is if he’s traded to a good team. But he’s contract is too much especially in the new CBA. 3 years ago every all star level player got the biggest contract possible and I think teams are starting to realize that isn’t smart
Zach is still good player I find it hard to believe nobody wants him.
Have you seen his salary and injury history?
That contract is brutal
Lol Bulls front office should be fired for holding to Lavine for this long. Now he's on clearance
Welcome to Detroit!
God damn they treating Zach Lavine like John Wall a few years ago… sheesh he’s not that bad
He just cant stay healthy
You are a Zacramento king
Good player, but not your 1 or 2 option at this point. Would be a killer 3rd option elsewhere
If they completely remove 2025 protections on the pick they owe the spurs, I’d take him in a heartbeat.
Honestly at this point, it's better to keep him and just try to rehabilitate his value. The Bulls shouldn't be attaching picks to trade him.
How is there no market for a 20/5/5 player? Am I taking crazy pills?
Bulls front office the most incompetent front office I’ve ever seen in my time alive.
Has Lavine been bad recently? feels like every year since he was drafted the perspective on him switches between 'Good player' to 'Negative value guy'
His offensive game is good, but he missed most of the year with injuries and he is signed for 3 more years at $40+ million a year.
Bull FO is so incompetent it's insane. They hold when there is a market for someone and then get left holding the bag. Idk why they didn't use Caruso to unload the contract.
Maybe getting Giddey was more important than moving Zach.
If they think Giddey is a key piece of their future it probably is more important. But moving LaVine and giving up draft capital in the deal doesn't make any sense for a rebuilding team so I'm not sure the strategy here.
This is nonsense. Lavine as a 3rd option would be great for a team.
Lavine is underrated now
That’s exactly why I don’t even wanna trade him. This is absolutely the worst time to sell low on him. Keep him for a year, let him rebuild his value. He’s a fucking 2x all star and averaged 27ppg on 50/40/85 ffs. They’re making it sound like he’s fucking Devonte graham getting paid 45mil. Sure he’s been injured last season but that’s the only major injury he has had after his ACL tear It’s sad to see your favourite player’s reputation get dragged through the mud like this when it’s not his fault that the incompetent FO offered him the max in the first place
Why is his value so low? I get that he’s not crazy good but he’s still good
47M a year
In less than 48 hours Bobby Marks went from saying "I doubt you could trade him even if you attached a frp" to "everyone's telling me they're trying to attach a frp and it isn't working!" I just don't think this is true lol.
An absolute collasal failure by Karnisovas.
He’s not getting moved this offseason. He’s just not worth $47mil a yr. No contending team is gonna pay that for a “3rd star.” Everyone around the league saw how bad that went in PHX with the new 2nd apron rules. If Zach was making $20-$30mil a yr he would have a trade market, even with all his recent injury struggles imo. If he was on the Poole, Hero, Anf, etc type of contract I’d be cool taking a flier on him in a salary dump. But he’s not, he’s more injured than them & honestly not really much better as a player than they are.
A draft pick you say?
It's like the other 29 teams can see he's not a winning player.
Zach Lavine on the bulls is like Aaron Gordon in Orlando