Because he came off the bench, it’s really as simple as that. In 2005 he made the all star team starting every game. In 2006 he was still the starter but missed a lot of games due to injury. From 2007-2010 he came off the bench. In 2011 he returned to the starting lineup and promptly made another all star appearance. Afterwards, he returned to the bench again. Prime Manu was an all star level player but didn’t play enough minutes to generate the kind of numbers needed for an all star nod.
The bigger travesty is that he only won one 6MOY award. 6MOY voting has often just been a “who scored the most points coming off the bench” award rather than the true best bench player. Manu and Iguodala having a combined one 6MOY award is stupid. Yet you had Jamal Crawford and Lou Williams racking up these awards every year as inefficient self-creators with no defense.
I generally agree with your point about the 6moy award as I’d say over half of the recipients were not deserving, but I think you’re selling Lou Will a bit short. He averaged 20 and 5 on average TS% while being the best or second best player on a couple of 40 win teams. I think he pretty easily deserved it in 2018, and I would’ve picked him in 2015 as well.
Jamal Crawford and Lou Williams were better then Manu and Iggy. Stop this nonsense. Reality is Manu wasn’t an all star level player, or even startling caliber on his own team. Same with Iggy. The guys that started in front of them were better.
Because he had to contend against:
Prime Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Steve Nash, Ray Allen and then the likes of
Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, Deron Williams, Brandon Roy
And against his own teammate, Tony Parker.
All of those above guys were "the guys" on their team while Manu sacrificed his personal stats for team wins and was content in his position. Throw in some one-timers here and there and it's hard for Manu to get as much notice, especially when the people dubbed the Spurs as "boring" basketball during that time period.
It’s an awful meme. Those teams were insanely good. It’s just that the main man acted as a foil to Shaq.
Edit: wrong adjective. Great, not just good. Mea culpa.
He was a shooting guard in the Western Conference the same time as Kobe, who was automatically getting one of the SG spots. He was also coming off the bench for most of his career, All-Star spots usually went to starters.
You’re a dummy. He was extraordinarily underrated. If he was given a team, he’d probably go 25/5/5 minimum. He was a super humble superstar. But he could do it all AND had the mentality.
Early on in his career, Ginobili didn’t get the hype that he has now. Add that to the fact that his stats don’t really jump off the board and he was always competing in a guard dominated western conference and you get only 2 all star appearances.
Manu should have made more All-Star appearances, but a tough Western Conference, combined with the role he took on in San Antonio (6MOTY and All-NBA in the same season is a rather unique achievement) kept that number lower than it should have been.
Strangely enough, he was one of the few guys who made an All-NBA team in a year when he didn't make All Star, in 2008, so between All-Star and All-NBA seasons, he had three as opposed to two, but that still obviously underrates him.
His Hall of Fame resume, though, was much more based on his international resume. He played three more seasons in Europe after being drafted, and was a 25 year old rookie. He was a EuroLeague champ, multiple time EuroLeague scoring champ, a EuroLeague Finals MVP, a multi-time Italian League champion and MVP, etc. His international resume after joining the NBA was even crazier, with the capper being his insane performance to elevate Argentina to the Gold medal at the Athens Olympics. At the time, he was literally the only NBA player on a team that took down an American squad that featured LeBron, Duncan, Wade, Carmelo, Marion, Stoudamire, Odom, Iverson, Marbury, etc.
He has one of the more unique Hall of Fame resumes of all time, but certainly deserves to be there, based on the combination of his NBA and international resumes.
But Parker was still the facilitator. Even when Parker wasn’t scoring he was wildly important to the offense. And in general and unselfish team which hurts all star odds
Tons of competition at guard in the west, plus he came off the bench a ton.
Manu is always the number one guy I think in terms of "guys who the numbers don't tell the whole story." His numbers don't reflect what a killer that guy was. Being a Suns fan in the 2000s, the only guy who scared me more than Manu at the end of games was Kobe.
Man came off the bench who had to compete for the final guard spots after Kobe, Steve Nash, CP3, Tony Parker, Westbrook, Steph, and James Harden sucked up all the main selections
Those latter 3's all star years didn't really coincide with Manu's all star years. His all-star years were around 05-11. Other than that I agree with your general point.
My boy got a game winning block on an mvp at age 39. Of he wanted to suit up with wemby today not a single person would stop him. Best five minutes off the bench we can get.
Because his minutes were always low due to people not understanding that per-minute numbers extrapolate back then.
If he played in 2024 he would have been given way more time and had bigger raw numbers leading to way more all-stars. His case is **EXACTLY** like how Harden was extremely underrated while he was coming off the bench and not having starter minutes. The difference is that OKC was stupid about it and Harden wanted to be the guy, while the Spurs were smart about how the handled Manu (and Manu didn't really care about being the guy).
tl,dr; in the 2000s people though that there was a big difference in people coming off the bench or not.
He only had 6 seasons (05, 06, 07, 08, 10, 11) that he would have been even in the realm of a possibility, and it lined up with some combinations of Kobe, TMac, Parker, Marion, Allen, Iverson, Nash, Billups, Chris Paul, Brandon Roy, Kidd, Westbrook.
Honestly, it's lucky he got the 2 that he did for his expected production
Prob cuz he never averaged 20 pts a game lol. Surprised he made 2 all stars. GOAT 6man but was never really a top 5 guard/wing in the west. West was stacked.
Just because Manu has bad average and come from the bench doesn't mean he isn't a greater player than starters. Just look at playoffs dude.
I think only Kobe has the claim that he's better than Manu (and not by a lot, really.). Maybe Wade too but the margin is small. Nash definitely if he can play defense (but he can't, so I tend to say No) . Others are not worth mentioning.
If we are talking about individual season performance that would require too much details.
The two times he was an All-Star were the seasons he was a full-time starter. Note that he came off the bench for a good chunk of his career.
Conversely he's the only player to win Sixth Man and make an All-NBA team in the same season.
He played in the bloodbath west, took a role reduction when the Spurs needed him to and was underrated in his time, it’s a case of choosing winning over numbers with Manu
I once delved into the stats to find the best bench players of all time. In the frontcourt there are arguments to be had. At guard there's no argument at all.
It’s really not that hard, OP. Go back and review the years when he played. The stats, minutes played, players he was up against, etc. You’ll easily find your answer.
Quit posting brain dead shit.
Manu is overrated, not underrated. Never deserving of an all star spot he didn’t get.
There were just better players throughout his career, he’s not even hof caliber.
Literally, pick a season, let’s compare the guards.
i think Kobe Bryant was the last bench player that was voted as an Allstar at the same season and Ginobili was the last bench player to be named in All-NBA team as a reserved at the same season
Ginobli gets overrated a bit tbh, he was a great player but it’s not surprising he only made a couple when you compare him with the other guards in the West at the time.
Big market teams fans are genuinely so lost when we talk about ball from the last couple decades..
He has the case as the greatest player to ever come off the bench.
I literally grew up watching Manu, one of my fav bball memories as a kid was his game winner against Serbia in the Olympics.
that being said - he was not nearly as heralded as he is today. Ppl today think he could have been like Harden if he had his own team… absolutely not. Like I said, Ginobli was a great player but he was never a MVP calibre like some ppl try to portray him as. that’s why he only made two all star games.
He only made two all stars because he came off the bench in the west. Had he had his own team he would’ve 100% put up insane numbers. You really don’t know ball son.
If he would if he could. He literally didn’t have the durability to carry a team like that. People always underrate that the hardest part of being a superstar is having the stamina to do it for 82 games a year without missing a lot of time
He had multiple offers and 100% could.
He valued winning and the culture he made with Duncan and pop. You’re making it sound like he was an injury prone fringe 6th man. Dude was him. Please watch more ball and stop just staring at stat lines
As time passes Duncan becomes more and more underrated. The man remains invisible, his highlights a bit lackluster and his box scores on a very slow, defensively oriented team not fully representative of his overall superlative impact. We see five titles and assume he must have had a ton of help even though his five year playoff peak is clearly the best ever according to the advanced metrics presented by Ben Taylor in his greatest peaks series. We’ve forgotten how great he was to the extent that we ever realized it and his teammates have gotten too much credit.
To Manu’s credit I think we know now Parker was kind of a prick and wasn’t willing to sacrifice for the team like Manu was. Two matador defenders in the starting lineup and no scoring punch off the bench wouldn’t have worked as well so Manu sat to start. The slow pace and defensive emphasis also hurt Manu who, to your point, isn’t fairly represented as a 2x all-star, but he wasn’t a superstar. He wasn’t offered a max by anybody when he hit free agency in ‘06 or ‘09 or ‘13. He had some amazing playoff moments but when he came up small he still smelled like winning and nonody wanted to talk about San Antonio except when they’d win it all and there was little other choice.
Tl/dr: he’s underrated as a 2x all-star but he was very lucky to play with the only GOAT level dude who doesnt get his due in Duncan.
He played in probably the era with the best guards in nba history (arguable), while never having much fanfare or attention. He was essentially the Derrick white of the spurs in terms of hierarchy on that team
I love me some Derrick White, up there as one of my favourite players in the league, but Manu was multiple tiers better than him as a player. Even in terms of hierarchy, Manu was the number 2 guy in 2005 and was the offensive leader of the team in 2011
Obviously with the caveat that Timmy was always "the franchise", it wasn't until 2012 that Parker was handed the keys to the team. Manu had it for a couple years before that which is why his broken arm in 2011 was so impactful in the 1-8 loss to the Grizz. Kawhi got to run the show 2015 or so
I've read a lot of debates over whether Manu should have won the 2005 Finals MVP, although I wasn't a fan at that time
Manu averaged 13 points for his career and he was not a starter. His best season where he was 10th in MVP voting while averaging 19.5 4.8 and 4.5 lmao. That shouldn't even be in the MVP running. Look at what he was averaging and what Gilbert Arenas averaged while being schemed against primarily and tell me why Manu was should be higher rated
Because he's one of the most overrated players in history and no, he didn't deserve to be a hall of famer. His resume is as paper thin as Vlade Divac's.
Everyone talking about his competition is wrong. Manu was the second best player on the Spurs. Popovich was a brilliant coach who realized having all five of your strongest guys out at once and then a way weaker bench unit coming on was much worse than mixing up your best players. More teams should realize this. Tim Duncan was so amazing that he could shine with an average point guard like Parker (who got better over the years). Manu was so amazing he could lead the bench for a completely different shift. People like Shane Battier would come off the bench when playing the Spurs so that they could align with Manu's minutes.
But the bench made him never get proper credit. People still forget, he is the one that beat the US to get the Gold Medal in 2004. Scoring 29 points on nearly 70 percent shooting.
All Star starters being fan vote is a joke, and back then you had a guaranteed center slot, too. New rules have improved the voting slightly.
Because he came off the bench, it’s really as simple as that. In 2005 he made the all star team starting every game. In 2006 he was still the starter but missed a lot of games due to injury. From 2007-2010 he came off the bench. In 2011 he returned to the starting lineup and promptly made another all star appearance. Afterwards, he returned to the bench again. Prime Manu was an all star level player but didn’t play enough minutes to generate the kind of numbers needed for an all star nod. The bigger travesty is that he only won one 6MOY award. 6MOY voting has often just been a “who scored the most points coming off the bench” award rather than the true best bench player. Manu and Iguodala having a combined one 6MOY award is stupid. Yet you had Jamal Crawford and Lou Williams racking up these awards every year as inefficient self-creators with no defense.
Manu was THE 6th man. 2k put the "never start" player option in the game for him.
The ankle and the arm. I still believe we beat those grizzlies in round one with a fully healthy manu.
I generally agree with your point about the 6moy award as I’d say over half of the recipients were not deserving, but I think you’re selling Lou Will a bit short. He averaged 20 and 5 on average TS% while being the best or second best player on a couple of 40 win teams. I think he pretty easily deserved it in 2018, and I would’ve picked him in 2015 as well.
Jamal Crawford and Lou Williams were better then Manu and Iggy. Stop this nonsense. Reality is Manu wasn’t an all star level player, or even startling caliber on his own team. Same with Iggy. The guys that started in front of them were better.
Because he had to contend against: Prime Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Steve Nash, Ray Allen and then the likes of Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, Deron Williams, Brandon Roy And against his own teammate, Tony Parker. All of those above guys were "the guys" on their team while Manu sacrificed his personal stats for team wins and was content in his position. Throw in some one-timers here and there and it's hard for Manu to get as much notice, especially when the people dubbed the Spurs as "boring" basketball during that time period.
Eh, Manu was the non-boring part of Spurs basketball
We still had that stigma tho which was annoying. It's like constantly being gas lighted on a national stage lol
It’s an awful meme. Those teams were insanely good. It’s just that the main man acted as a foil to Shaq. Edit: wrong adjective. Great, not just good. Mea culpa.
Good? They were pretty great. They were boring as hell. Duncan and Parker were boring players to watch, and Duncan is the greatest PF of all time.
Parker is not boring AT ALL.
Compared to the PGs of his generation that were high flyers, yeah he was boring. I was a huge fan still, his efficiency for a 6 ft PG was crazy
I cared for dunks when I was young. Now dunks are just dunks. I appreciate the fundamentals and touch a hell of alot more
In the immortal words of Tony the Tiger: "They're more than good, they're grrrrrrreat!"
He was electrifying and always gave the spurs a chance to win. One of the most clutch players I’ve ever seen
That is also extremely true. It was a killer and stellar NBA time frame of awesomeness
He also only hit 30 minutes a game twice in his career.
That is a staggering statistic. Is this true?
Keep in mind from 28 years(04-05) old to his retirement in 2016 Timmy D never played more than 33mpg. Pop kept his guys minutes pretty low overall.
He was a shooting guard in the Western Conference the same time as Kobe, who was automatically getting one of the SG spots. He was also coming off the bench for most of his career, All-Star spots usually went to starters.
That is really good answer. I really wasn’t thinking about that.
He came off the Bench and his best performances were usually in the Playoffs. He was like the Julian Edelman of the NBA.
the man chose winning over accolades. Nuggets offered him more money and a starting position and he declined.
Great example of Putting ego aside for team success.
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Are all lakers fans this dumb irl or is it just an online thing
I swear its not all of us
It's always funny reading comments like these because it's either a troll, or someone with actual brain damage.
Do me a favor and look up the 2004 Olympics basketball results, little bro
You’re a dummy. He was extraordinarily underrated. If he was given a team, he’d probably go 25/5/5 minimum. He was a super humble superstar. But he could do it all AND had the mentality.
Early on in his career, Ginobili didn’t get the hype that he has now. Add that to the fact that his stats don’t really jump off the board and he was always competing in a guard dominated western conference and you get only 2 all star appearances.
Everyone that votes on All-Star loves bats. Case closed.
Manu should have made more All-Star appearances, but a tough Western Conference, combined with the role he took on in San Antonio (6MOTY and All-NBA in the same season is a rather unique achievement) kept that number lower than it should have been. Strangely enough, he was one of the few guys who made an All-NBA team in a year when he didn't make All Star, in 2008, so between All-Star and All-NBA seasons, he had three as opposed to two, but that still obviously underrates him. His Hall of Fame resume, though, was much more based on his international resume. He played three more seasons in Europe after being drafted, and was a 25 year old rookie. He was a EuroLeague champ, multiple time EuroLeague scoring champ, a EuroLeague Finals MVP, a multi-time Italian League champion and MVP, etc. His international resume after joining the NBA was even crazier, with the capper being his insane performance to elevate Argentina to the Gold medal at the Athens Olympics. At the time, he was literally the only NBA player on a team that took down an American squad that featured LeBron, Duncan, Wade, Carmelo, Marion, Stoudamire, Odom, Iverson, Marbury, etc. He has one of the more unique Hall of Fame resumes of all time, but certainly deserves to be there, based on the combination of his NBA and international resumes.
He beat Team USA at Olympics. That counts more than a 3peat in my book.
2000s were a golden age for SGs
Dude accepted his role and excelled at it. He was still the 3rd guy on his team, and was a force off the bench for years.
He was our number 2 until parker fixed his jumper
But Parker was still the facilitator. Even when Parker wasn’t scoring he was wildly important to the offense. And in general and unselfish team which hurts all star odds
Tons of competition at guard in the west, plus he came off the bench a ton. Manu is always the number one guy I think in terms of "guys who the numbers don't tell the whole story." His numbers don't reflect what a killer that guy was. Being a Suns fan in the 2000s, the only guy who scared me more than Manu at the end of games was Kobe.
Man came off the bench who had to compete for the final guard spots after Kobe, Steve Nash, CP3, Tony Parker, Westbrook, Steph, and James Harden sucked up all the main selections
Those latter 3's all star years didn't really coincide with Manu's all star years. His all-star years were around 05-11. Other than that I agree with your general point.
Probably cause he was coming off the bench for limited minutes his entire career but I thought he was still very good til 2014?
My boy got a game winning block on an mvp at age 39. Of he wanted to suit up with wemby today not a single person would stop him. Best five minutes off the bench we can get.
Because his minutes were always low due to people not understanding that per-minute numbers extrapolate back then. If he played in 2024 he would have been given way more time and had bigger raw numbers leading to way more all-stars. His case is **EXACTLY** like how Harden was extremely underrated while he was coming off the bench and not having starter minutes. The difference is that OKC was stupid about it and Harden wanted to be the guy, while the Spurs were smart about how the handled Manu (and Manu didn't really care about being the guy). tl,dr; in the 2000s people though that there was a big difference in people coming off the bench or not.
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it's clear who's watching the box score when you hear someone say parker was better than ginobili in 06
He only had 6 seasons (05, 06, 07, 08, 10, 11) that he would have been even in the realm of a possibility, and it lined up with some combinations of Kobe, TMac, Parker, Marion, Allen, Iverson, Nash, Billups, Chris Paul, Brandon Roy, Kidd, Westbrook. Honestly, it's lucky he got the 2 that he did for his expected production
He only started 349 games as a spur out of 1047 Bench players rarely get All Star Nods...no matter how good they are
Prob cuz he never averaged 20 pts a game lol. Surprised he made 2 all stars. GOAT 6man but was never really a top 5 guard/wing in the west. West was stacked.
Just because Manu has bad average and come from the bench doesn't mean he isn't a greater player than starters. Just look at playoffs dude. I think only Kobe has the claim that he's better than Manu (and not by a lot, really.). Maybe Wade too but the margin is small. Nash definitely if he can play defense (but he can't, so I tend to say No) . Others are not worth mentioning. If we are talking about individual season performance that would require too much details.
Wade had to lead his team, Manu didn't
Cause he’s old
Kobe.
He sacrificed stats to come off the bench
Two more than Jamal Murray will ever get.
The two times he was an All-Star were the seasons he was a full-time starter. Note that he came off the bench for a good chunk of his career. Conversely he's the only player to win Sixth Man and make an All-NBA team in the same season.
Because he was more often a bench guy. It’s hard AF for a sixth man to get an all star spot especially if he isnt voted in by fans.
He came off the bench Meaning his numbers and minutes where low
He played in the bloodbath west, took a role reduction when the Spurs needed him to and was underrated in his time, it’s a case of choosing winning over numbers with Manu
Came off the bench. And played in a really tough era for a western guard
Ginobli is the most underrated player of all time I will fight anyone
Part of it is his contemporaries, part of it is his reduced usage bc of his role on the spurs
He.... Was a bench player? What more do you want? He was a foreign basketball icon and has lots of chips so he deserves to be in the hall of fame.
I once delved into the stats to find the best bench players of all time. In the frontcourt there are arguments to be had. At guard there's no argument at all.
Go through all the all Star teams he wasn't a part of during his career. Which player would you remove?
The same way that Paul Pierce only every made ONE All-NBA team (2nd). League was stacked with guards.
It’s really not that hard, OP. Go back and review the years when he played. The stats, minutes played, players he was up against, etc. You’ll easily find your answer. Quit posting brain dead shit.
Manu is overrated, not underrated. Never deserving of an all star spot he didn’t get. There were just better players throughout his career, he’s not even hof caliber. Literally, pick a season, let’s compare the guards.
i think Kobe Bryant was the last bench player that was voted as an Allstar at the same season and Ginobili was the last bench player to be named in All-NBA team as a reserved at the same season
I love when Chuck says “Ginoooobli”!
Ginobli gets overrated a bit tbh, he was a great player but it’s not surprising he only made a couple when you compare him with the other guards in the West at the time.
One of the only bench players a lock for Hall of Fame, gets called overrated lol.
He’s in the hall of fame because of his international career
Big market teams fans are genuinely so lost when we talk about ball from the last couple decades.. He has the case as the greatest player to ever come off the bench.
I literally grew up watching Manu, one of my fav bball memories as a kid was his game winner against Serbia in the Olympics. that being said - he was not nearly as heralded as he is today. Ppl today think he could have been like Harden if he had his own team… absolutely not. Like I said, Ginobli was a great player but he was never a MVP calibre like some ppl try to portray him as. that’s why he only made two all star games.
He only made two all stars because he came off the bench in the west. Had he had his own team he would’ve 100% put up insane numbers. You really don’t know ball son.
If he would if he could. He literally didn’t have the durability to carry a team like that. People always underrate that the hardest part of being a superstar is having the stamina to do it for 82 games a year without missing a lot of time
He had multiple offers and 100% could. He valued winning and the culture he made with Duncan and pop. You’re making it sound like he was an injury prone fringe 6th man. Dude was him. Please watch more ball and stop just staring at stat lines
As time passes Duncan becomes more and more underrated. The man remains invisible, his highlights a bit lackluster and his box scores on a very slow, defensively oriented team not fully representative of his overall superlative impact. We see five titles and assume he must have had a ton of help even though his five year playoff peak is clearly the best ever according to the advanced metrics presented by Ben Taylor in his greatest peaks series. We’ve forgotten how great he was to the extent that we ever realized it and his teammates have gotten too much credit. To Manu’s credit I think we know now Parker was kind of a prick and wasn’t willing to sacrifice for the team like Manu was. Two matador defenders in the starting lineup and no scoring punch off the bench wouldn’t have worked as well so Manu sat to start. The slow pace and defensive emphasis also hurt Manu who, to your point, isn’t fairly represented as a 2x all-star, but he wasn’t a superstar. He wasn’t offered a max by anybody when he hit free agency in ‘06 or ‘09 or ‘13. He had some amazing playoff moments but when he came up small he still smelled like winning and nonody wanted to talk about San Antonio except when they’d win it all and there was little other choice. Tl/dr: he’s underrated as a 2x all-star but he was very lucky to play with the only GOAT level dude who doesnt get his due in Duncan.
manu was hardly a "matador" defender LOL
He played in probably the era with the best guards in nba history (arguable), while never having much fanfare or attention. He was essentially the Derrick white of the spurs in terms of hierarchy on that team
I love me some Derrick White, up there as one of my favourite players in the league, but Manu was multiple tiers better than him as a player. Even in terms of hierarchy, Manu was the number 2 guy in 2005 and was the offensive leader of the team in 2011
I feel like manu was always behind Tony at the very least, and behind kawhi when he came into the fold
Obviously with the caveat that Timmy was always "the franchise", it wasn't until 2012 that Parker was handed the keys to the team. Manu had it for a couple years before that which is why his broken arm in 2011 was so impactful in the 1-8 loss to the Grizz. Kawhi got to run the show 2015 or so I've read a lot of debates over whether Manu should have won the 2005 Finals MVP, although I wasn't a fan at that time
Manu averaged 13 points for his career and he was not a starter. His best season where he was 10th in MVP voting while averaging 19.5 4.8 and 4.5 lmao. That shouldn't even be in the MVP running. Look at what he was averaging and what Gilbert Arenas averaged while being schemed against primarily and tell me why Manu was should be higher rated
Because he's one of the most overrated players in history and no, he didn't deserve to be a hall of famer. His resume is as paper thin as Vlade Divac's.
nephew stop
Because he wasn’t a top 6 guard every year in the west
Everyone talking about his competition is wrong. Manu was the second best player on the Spurs. Popovich was a brilliant coach who realized having all five of your strongest guys out at once and then a way weaker bench unit coming on was much worse than mixing up your best players. More teams should realize this. Tim Duncan was so amazing that he could shine with an average point guard like Parker (who got better over the years). Manu was so amazing he could lead the bench for a completely different shift. People like Shane Battier would come off the bench when playing the Spurs so that they could align with Manu's minutes. But the bench made him never get proper credit. People still forget, he is the one that beat the US to get the Gold Medal in 2004. Scoring 29 points on nearly 70 percent shooting. All Star starters being fan vote is a joke, and back then you had a guaranteed center slot, too. New rules have improved the voting slightly.
Xenophobia