If it is a personality disorder, then to some extent she can't help it. It must screw up the lives of people with this sort of condition too, as well as those of their victims.
Don't get me wrong, it must be absolutely horrendous to be on the receiving end of this sort of behaviour, it's effectively bullying. But, I do wonder if criminalising them is the real answer.
Well this is why there used to be secure hospitals for people with these sorts of mental issues,to protect society as a whole. It's not that they need to be punished as such because what they are doing is correct *in their reality*, but that reality is wrong and incompatible with living freely in society.
There used to be Therapeutic Communities for people with these sort of illnesses, but the patient needed to agree to stay for 2 years, and the cost of funding for two years made the difficult for governments to stomach.
They worked by breaking the person down by helping them to realise how destructive and bad they were until they were truly broken and then helping them to rebuild. It took 15 to 20 months to brake them down, but had an almost 100% success rate if the patient didn't leave early.
2 years of NHS funding for 1 person versus 60 people treated for their mental health problems or 30 people treated for cancer, you can see why these places closed down when government rations funding.
Source that says this worked, please?
From all that kve read, narcissists can not be rehabilitated, similar to pedophiles.
Edit: btw, i dont doubt you specifically. I'm just very curious bc it is different from what I've read.
No idea of a source, I worked in the NHS Connolly Therapeutic Community in West London in the late 1980s, this was common knowledge and what the Consultant said and told to patients. Numbers were limited, we had around 24 patients at any one time and there were around another 60 more across the whole of the UK.
From my own experience, I saw some great successes and very thankful patients being discharged, trying to leave early didn't really happen because all the other patients would stop them, cry with them, and physically hold them down until the feelings of giving up went away. Of course how much was about actually wanting to leave or just crying wolf asking for help was always debatable. Either way, it all helped increase feelings of community and bonding patients together. There were group counselling twice a day, individual counselling twice a week, a domestic meeting every day (about cleaning, cooking, social arrangements, etc. Patients cooked and cleaned as a group, it was a strict drug and alcohol free place, the only prescribed drugs allowed were for medical conditions and not for anything to do with mental health, no sleeping tablets or antidepressants for example, but the front door was never locked and patients went to the cinema almost every week.
Adults only, no paedophiles.
There seems at present to be only 4 ways of looking after paedophiles : Voluntary chemical castration to remove any sex drive; Actual castration; Locking them up without access to the Internet forever. Or death. Whilst most don't want to be like that and what some form of treatment, others think that small children exist only for them to use. I met one individual who I would have been very happiy to euthanize but unfortunately this isn't allowed in the UK. I'd like to think that this happened to him in prison. It would have been for the best.
People will not change unless they want to. They also have to be willing to admit something is wrong and be vulnerable. The ego is a self protective system. For someone that is deep in ego, like a narcissist, it is very difficult to admit something is wrong with them and feel that vulnerability because their entire identity is built avoiding that. Potentially, they can change, though they are much less likely too than most people. It also usually takes some forced life shifts, like the vulnerability of getting older.
There are a plethora of other PDs besides narcissistic ones. Things like borderline personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder for example can be rehabilitated.
Long ago I worked on one of those wards with 40 "Martha's" each in their own special world with the goal of making you a part of it. My first day the ward lead bet me $10 that I wouldn't last a month. He won.
When they terrorise you to the point of making someone want to complete suicide, yes they need to be criminalised. You can be mentally ill and a criminal at the same time. She has been told repeatedly by police to stop and did not. She had been told her actions were hurting someone and continued. Unfortunately, treatment isn’t always effective and in erotomania most won’t engage in meaningful therapy and medication doesn’t work.
My point has clearly flown right over your head. The point is, if she cannot help herself, then there is no *point t* to criminalise her, because that won't stop the behaviour. Surely the point is to stop this behaviour? It is destructive to the victim, *and* the perpetrator.
Besides which, a criminal is usually sent to prison for a specific period of time, but someone sent to a psychiatric institution is sent indefinitely. So we're actually safer *not* criminalising people, because a psychiatric order will keep them off the streets until such time as a psychiatrist this they are well, amd not some arbitrary sentence.
I know I am wasting my time trying to explain this, because clearly you're not interested in actual facts.
Hoping I’m not being stupid but since mental health care is not taken seriously or even seen as a human right, would criminalizing it (once certain thresholds are met) not at least allow an avenue of treatment? What is the fix then? And then I re-read and see your point. It’s just sad that mental health situations are not typically not identified or addressed until something bad has happened.
The same argument can be used for any inappropriate behaviour or crime. The people doing such things aren’t healthy whether they are diagnosed with a personality disorder or not.
People don’t just do bad things. There’s always a reason for it. This just comes under the broader punishment vs rehabilitation debate regarding justice systems.
I do agree that she is also a victim, and if you’re stuck in a cycle of shame and low self esteem, more shame from society will only make things worse. People with PDs already know subconsciously their actions are wrong. If they had an ego, they wouldn’t have a PD.
However, if we can extend empathy and understanding to her circumstances, why do we refuse to for other criminals? It’s tricky finding the balance, especially as the public gets scared and demands severe punishment quite often.
This type of empathy is dangerous to the innocent. Is it sad that people suffer from these conditions? Yes. Is there some form of twisted logic to their reasoning? Sure. And it’s still horrific that they act the way they do and they should face social consequences for it. Holding compassion for them with a sort of “the poor dear" mentality without holding them equally accountable for the damage they do is enabling the problem.
You’re to blame for what they do next as much as anyone if you know what they’re capable of and don’t stand for doing something (whatever that is) to protect the next innocent. You aren’t responsible for controlling a sick person’s behavior. But you are responsible for your own - and that includes excusing downright dangerous and traumatizing behavior.
It’s the sad and rough and unjust task of a victim of trauma or a mental illness to have to clean up damage to themselves that they may not be responsible for causing. And nonetheless, they ARE still responsible. Especially for holding themselves back from continuing cycles of abuse.
It did. The creator specifically mentioned in interviews too that both of them were victims of each other. She made his life absolutely hell, but he also made her life difficult too by indulging it for so long.
However for her to call herself "THE" victim seems... Short sighted.
"He also made her life difficult too by indulging it for so long"
Absolutely. He was a very willing participant. In fact he's still doing it. "I just gave her a cup of tea" doesn't cut it when you write a play and then a Netflix show.
Personally they both seem to be pretty clear cut borderline personalities to me.
and also to say that she "doesn't want people to know where she lives" but "will not be silenced" is such a contraciction. Like she's saying that she doesn't want the spotlight, but wants to perform.
Indeed. Her Facebook account is wide open, or at least her posts are. I counted 85 posts just in the last day. Based upon her writings and clear obsessive behavior, her character seems to have been very accurately portrayed.
Not just indulging it too long but intentionally going back and restarting the cycle all over again when she was finally backing off (because he wanted the attention I guess?) neither of them seem mentally well. And this whole clusterfuck of the show triggering her to come out and start up again just seems like another part of the saga where he could have left well enough alone but noooo he needed the attention.
At first i felt really angry at this lady but I read more about her and shes clearly severely mentally ill and has a possible learning difficulty. She needs psychiatric care and treatment. In NO way am I defending her but I think commenting on her posts or sending nasty messages her feeds into her delusional perception of reality
It does. I looked at her FB page & did not try to engage. She contradicts herself so much,it's plain to see she isn't well mentally. But even knowing that,she still went after people that did nothing to hurt her. She is capable of being a terribly cruel person. Leave her to either do better or not,but engaging does nothing. She won't change.
I was pondering this cos i recently had (comparatively much minor) crazy person, and i think it boils down to: they care about their wants and needs more than they care about your right to say no
Yes narcissists imo are a type of mental illness. They will not see their actions as wrong,they can convince themselves of their 'truth'. They are like a dog with a bone. Toxic people are so draining to be around. At a certain point, people need to decide- do they keep giving away their time & energy to them or do they block it/them & live their best life away from toxicity? That's my view,anyway.
Her actual page has no commenting available. There's a fake account using her profile photo that is posting pretending to be her with lots of people commenting.
I saw a post from someone claiming to know her.
According to them, she doesn't have a learning disability, but she is autistic. She's extremely intelligent but struggles with social interaction and has a very black and white way of thinking about the world.
Exactly, we know the story in the series isn't completely "true". For example in the show Martha is charged, prosecuted, and pleads guilty to the stalking and harassment of Donny etc, in reality that didn't happen and Gadd said the situation with irl Martha was "resolved" on its own.
But for sure, as the note says, the guy falsely accused of sexually harassing another man IS the victim. This online harrasment campaigns "for a good cause" always end wrong, and people seem pretty lenient on allowing them to happen.
The guy who plays Donny is the guy who it happened to in real life. He also made sure to make the show as true to the real events as possible, only changing character names to protect the real people’s identities.
> Obviously Baby Reindeer isn't a documentary
Apparently more people need to hear this.
Though she outed herself... probably should have been quiet, then again the online sleuths probably were pestering/outing her themselves (which they were from the article)
>but this woman's conviction is a matter of public record.
Out of curiosity (I haven't seen the show or deeply researched this) but where did you get this information.
If it's from the show... well refer to the first part once again.
Aw jeez. I think i may have Mandela Effected myself here. Reportedly, the two settled but it's unclear if there was a conviction.
Thanks for the sanity check.
No worries, man. Like I said, I don't know if there was a conviction or what happened in real life, just kind of seen the sleuthing and been disgusted by what I have been hearing.
Heartbreaking to hear this. These people should be locked up. Being the object of someone’s obsession is extremely traumatic. And they never care about the damage they cause and they rarely ever pay any kind of price for it. Only the victims pay.
Yup - my ex-husband raped me and tried to kill me on our living room floor and then called 911 because when I managed to elbow him in the sternum he hit his head on the bottom of the couch rolling off me - he told the police "look at my head, she did this." Then, as he was being arrested, said "she assaults me but I'm being arrested?!" Like, it wasn't even an act - he genuinely believed he was the victim. To this day, almost eight years later, he still thinks that.
Gadd straight up told people to not do this
Edit: Guess victims wishes don’t mean anything anymore. Fuck him for thinking the best of people right? Y’all have some weird justifications.
In my experience, people who act like this are doing it for their own private reasons that are only marginally related to the person or the situation that triggered them. It's hardly in Gadd's power to curb their activities because they aren't doing this on his behalf, they're avenging their own private wrongs of which only they know the particulars. This here is kind of a catharsis, a bacchanal if you will, where everything is fair game to say or do to this universally despised figure.
Should have fictionalized her way more.
His comment about how they "changed her so much" seems insincere and disingenuous now. He straight up showed her as is in the show.
He should’ve said that pub was anywhere but camden, he shouldn’t have made her Scottish, there are so many things he could’ve done to disguise her without compromising his excellent show
I genuinely believe he didn’t want people harassing her, but the ‘she wouldn’t even recognise herself’ line had me rolling my eyes a bit, because that’s really stretching it. Like … suspect it might be based on you? Here’s an easy flowchart:
Have you ever stalked Richard Gadd?
No - it’s not you, rest easy.
Yes - hate to say this, chick, but it’s probably you.
Alternatively, yes - are there other people who stalked Richard Gadd even more obsessively than you?
No - it’s you.
Yes - nah, it’s probably one of them.
It’s a figure of speech, it’s not literal. It means if she read a description of the character she wouldn’t recognise it as her. Not that she literally wouldn’t recognise herself in the show.
Gadd is also incredibly naive to think people aren’t going to look up Fiona. He knew this would happen so any calls to leave Fiona alone is simply futile.
The show is on Netflix, genuinely what did he expect? I honestly think he should either made it a documentary or done more to separate it from himself. People are going to feel emotionally conflicted about him telling us someone did all this horrible things to him in real life (whilst he’s also playing himself) and then being told to do nothing about it. It was a very emotive and difficult piece of work to watch. Honestly can’t blame people for finding it difficult to grapple with the two.
Yeah… I think he should’ve gotten someone else to play him if his goal was not to demonize the real life people. I liked the series, but in general I’m not a fan of artists dramatizing their own lives for this reason. It blurs the line between reality and fiction too much.
The first thing I do when I watch a 'true story' is look up how much of that story is true. I don't get the mindset of people who harass others online but it's not inconceivable that the internet would do this.
"Yeah, we changed the woman loads, I totally don't want you to look for my stalker as some form of retribution."
He can't exactly say "fuck this bitch, I want you to harrass her, can he?
That being said, no idea why anyone would give people abuse online?
What’s the most wild is that Gadd has refused to comment on or give any info on who any of the real people his show is based on are. And recently also asked people to stop speculating. And if she had just remained silent it probably would’ve died down eventually.
But her unhinged Facebook posts make it SO clear that it’s her because she writes and expresses herself in the EXACT same way as Martha. Like Gadd could have written these Facebook posts himself as dialogue for Martha.
>And if she had just remained silent it probably would’ve died down eventually.
This is probably not true. Internet dog piles are absolutely relentless. She is mentally unwell and expected to listen to 1000s of people a day screaming at her.
I disagree. They’re relentless for a period of time and always die down when people find the next thing they’re going to pile on… unless that person does something that continually exacerbates the pile on… which imho is what publicly engaging directly with it does. A few months ago everyone was piling on Jennifer Lopez. Then that stopped and everyone started piling on Jojo Siwa, which is just now starting to die down. Yes, internet pile ons can be extremely upsetting and destabilizing, but no, they aren’t forever. And no you can’t stop them by making some kind of public statement. The only way to stop them is to do all you can not to feed into them and draw them out, and if anything escalates to a credible threat to one’s safety, reporting to the proper authorities.
Tbc, this is not an endorsement of people piling on her. I think it’s gross. And I think people should heed Gadd’s words and stop trying to figure out who these people are, and harassing them. And again, it’s not to say she should do nothing.
But yes, I do think her going on Facebook rants about it is only going to exacerbate the pile on and draw it out further.
> And if she had just remained silent it probably would’ve died down eventually.
Problem is it wasn't...
Read the article, people were already harassing her.
Not going to say if it's deserved... because it's not. Period. Gadd has refused to say who she was, and even if he did, it's not the public's place to threaten her, especially when we only have one side of the story.
Right it was reaching its peak. Hence why people were harassing her. I’m saying if she just laid low it likely would’ve died down over the next few months. We can agree to disagree!
So wait... people have directly found her, are sending her death threats, telling her to kill herself, and doxxing... and you're opinion is "Let it go for a few months..."
WTF?
No. I feel like you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying here. She should report any death threats and doxxing to the appropriate authorities, and do whatever she needs to do legally to fight against that. I’m saying that *this public statement* only FEEDS the trolls, makes people MORE certain it was her, and exacerbates the harm she’s already experiencing. And so when I’m saying she should lay low, all I’m saying is she shouldn’t post what amounts to rants about the situation on her Facebook. Report any threats. Stay away from public statements. And let it die down. What she did instead feeds the beast and keeps the cycle going. That’s all I’m saying.
Same here. Everyone here is blaming Gadd for telling his story but holy shit, the fault lies with the audience!
I watched the show and thought it was equally horrific as it was brilliant. Yet, when I finished, I had no desire to know who the real stalker was. I was prepared to move on to my next TV show. Thousands of people have not only found out who she was, but then proceeded to harass and threaten her. Why are these people's lives so empty that they feel like they need to get involved in Gadd's life?
The dude has been through enough and now because of them, he probably has another shitstorm coming his way.
Seriously, people are fucked up!
Don't know if you were intending to reference it, but the way people are treating this, it does come off as a version of "Britney's New Look" from South Park. Kind of like Tiger King, kind of like Making a Murderer, kind of like these Murder Porn documentaries isn't a good thing... which is also an episode of South Park.
I will admit that I found the point of the show to conclude that she was not even the bad guy, or the most damaged. Great show and ending. Very complex and unexpected.
She needs to watch the show to understand how he wrote her character. She says that she doesn’t look like the character. If he wanted to out her, he could have found an actress who looked just like her.
You’re right, I forgot that she’s not mentally well. I guess I meant that she’ll see that Darrien is written as someone who takes advantage of another person and she is written as someone who is not well and is upset when her advances are rejected.
The actress who plays her is actually stunning but yeah, there's a resemblance. He made it seem like she's like this thin blonde and the furthest thing and it's just not true.
I haven’t looked into what she looks like IRL so I’ll take your word for it. The actress, Jessica Gunning, was excellent. I hope we get to see more from her in the future.
How did her posts just 'pop up' on your timeline?
Don't quite understand how people can watch a TV show about how devastating stalking is and their main take-away is "I should track down one of these people in real life and starting stalking their social media activity."
I don’t know, I didn’t request to be her friend - a Facebook friend of mine interacted with a couple of her posts and that’s why they came up on my timeline I guess - I haven’t even watched Baby Reindeer
As much victim blaming is going on in this post, no one should be getting death threats serious enough for the police to be involved.
Regardless of how one feels about the series, no one should die over it.
I think there's some irony here with the real life consequences playing out in light of this series.
One of the main themes is the injustice around the punishment of Martha, a woman experiencing serious mental illness, in contrast with the mentor, who evaded any consequence for the harm he perpetuated with a sound mind. The main character is so focused on his pursuit of fame that he's able to repress or minimize the harms of the mentor at the end of the series, while demonstrating compassion and empathy for Martha throughout. In reality, the main character and writer of the series has finally reached the degree of fame and success he's been struggling to attain, and now the real life Martha is experiencing the internet blowback - more consequences for her actions.
It seems like this series attempts to illustrate the complexities of interpersonal relationships and experiences with harm, the harm that's perpetuated by the legal system, the failures of our mental health and social service systems, and the everyday struggles of living under capitalism, and so it's sad to see how this all plays out.
Completely unrelated but what is up with internet users trying to find the real life people portrayed in the show ? What is the reason for it? I’ve never understood why people are driven to do that and what it serves them at the end of the day.
She's a convicted stalker not the victim. Trouble is there is no help or support for people like her, so what do you do lock them up for life to protect the innocent. ?????
After months of complaining about Netflix not having a "watercooler show" the way they used every year I have to admit they have done it with this show. I've seen posts where people mention their co-workers talking about it. I just started watching and have been thinking about it all day and can't even concentrate on work.
As for the real life Martha although what she did was a crime she clearly has \*severe\* mental illness. And I understand lots of people have had stalkers too and they bring it up every time someone expresses sympathy for Martha. We get it. But your ex-husband or boyfriend who had a job and was functional in most aspects of his life stalking you because he was an abusive control freak isn't the same as a person with \*severe\* mental illness who can't work or function in society having OCD and not distinguishing between reality and delusion.
It would have been easy to change the character enough that online sleuths wouldn't figure out who she was but Netflix executives probably decided it would increase social media engagement if people found out who "the crazy woman" was and interacted with her. I can't deny that while I enjoy the show it does make me feel bad for participating in what they did to a person with a medical condition that altered their brain chemistry through no fault of their own.
Unfortunately mental illness doesn’t give people a free pass to torment people, terrify them and ruin their lives. She seems to have not been held accountable and her behavior should be exposed. If she is a danger do society, she needs to be secluded from it
Not read all the posts here but Richard Gadd should probably have understood once you put something like this in the public domain as a true story, some people with inevitably want to unravel the mystery. Naive really to think noone would try that.
From what I have read, there are obvious links on Twitter which point to this woman's identity eg the curtains quote.
It's a brilliant piece of work: confusing and challenging, lots to think about.
However, I do struggle to understand how a person that traumatised, could act out the part, knowing they were reenacting their own very personal trauma.
Catharsis is one thing but reenacting abuse, I don't know. I mean, I couldn't.
Brilliantly written, wonderfully executed by the cast but something doesn't sit right for me
She's not a victim tho if what is shown is true, her mental health is her concern if she is literally stalking then she's a criminal mental health or not
Poster child for DARVO. Stalking is terrifying to the victims. Anyone with half an ounce of empathy knows this.
Stop doing it, just stop. Get a hobby and hyperfocus on something else.
She was obviously the villain in the original stalking, but now she certainly is the victim of the movie. She didn’t choose to put her story out there, she’s faced the legal consequences of her actions as a private citizen like anyone else in her situation. Now suddenly a global hate mob is arising focused on one single woman just because her victim happened to make his story famous. Internet mobs can be horrific, especially if you arent mentally well.
> the movie
The biggest problem with what the public has done is... it's a movie.
I honestly DO believe Gadd didn't intend this. But the public does what the public does and takes shit too far.
I don’t think crazy internet people should be working out who she is and stalking her, as others have said he’s been clear she was a victim too.
I’m surprised no sleuths have worked out who the producer is, because likeliness is he didn’t just do that to Gadd he did it to others and as far as I know he hasn’t repented or acknowledged or been convicted of his horrific crimes.
She's being harassed and receiving death threats. That isn't right, regardless of the past.
Everyone who's even interested in finding out who she is needs to check themselves. Your curiosity is not more important than another person's privacy. Stop being a selfish piece of shit
She's not, tho. She is a mentally ill stalker who made his life hell. It's always people like her that play the victim as a narcissist.
Personality disorder classic. Cause shit and suffering and claim they’re the victim.
*shite sent from iphone
Or my personal favorite, just “iphon”
iphoen
ihpon
Sounds a lot like a very well known guy in the US who’s currently facing several criminal charges….
DARVO
If it is a personality disorder, then to some extent she can't help it. It must screw up the lives of people with this sort of condition too, as well as those of their victims. Don't get me wrong, it must be absolutely horrendous to be on the receiving end of this sort of behaviour, it's effectively bullying. But, I do wonder if criminalising them is the real answer.
Well this is why there used to be secure hospitals for people with these sorts of mental issues,to protect society as a whole. It's not that they need to be punished as such because what they are doing is correct *in their reality*, but that reality is wrong and incompatible with living freely in society.
There used to be Therapeutic Communities for people with these sort of illnesses, but the patient needed to agree to stay for 2 years, and the cost of funding for two years made the difficult for governments to stomach. They worked by breaking the person down by helping them to realise how destructive and bad they were until they were truly broken and then helping them to rebuild. It took 15 to 20 months to brake them down, but had an almost 100% success rate if the patient didn't leave early. 2 years of NHS funding for 1 person versus 60 people treated for their mental health problems or 30 people treated for cancer, you can see why these places closed down when government rations funding.
Source that says this worked, please? From all that kve read, narcissists can not be rehabilitated, similar to pedophiles. Edit: btw, i dont doubt you specifically. I'm just very curious bc it is different from what I've read.
No idea of a source, I worked in the NHS Connolly Therapeutic Community in West London in the late 1980s, this was common knowledge and what the Consultant said and told to patients. Numbers were limited, we had around 24 patients at any one time and there were around another 60 more across the whole of the UK. From my own experience, I saw some great successes and very thankful patients being discharged, trying to leave early didn't really happen because all the other patients would stop them, cry with them, and physically hold them down until the feelings of giving up went away. Of course how much was about actually wanting to leave or just crying wolf asking for help was always debatable. Either way, it all helped increase feelings of community and bonding patients together. There were group counselling twice a day, individual counselling twice a week, a domestic meeting every day (about cleaning, cooking, social arrangements, etc. Patients cooked and cleaned as a group, it was a strict drug and alcohol free place, the only prescribed drugs allowed were for medical conditions and not for anything to do with mental health, no sleeping tablets or antidepressants for example, but the front door was never locked and patients went to the cinema almost every week. Adults only, no paedophiles. There seems at present to be only 4 ways of looking after paedophiles : Voluntary chemical castration to remove any sex drive; Actual castration; Locking them up without access to the Internet forever. Or death. Whilst most don't want to be like that and what some form of treatment, others think that small children exist only for them to use. I met one individual who I would have been very happiy to euthanize but unfortunately this isn't allowed in the UK. I'd like to think that this happened to him in prison. It would have been for the best.
People will not change unless they want to. They also have to be willing to admit something is wrong and be vulnerable. The ego is a self protective system. For someone that is deep in ego, like a narcissist, it is very difficult to admit something is wrong with them and feel that vulnerability because their entire identity is built avoiding that. Potentially, they can change, though they are much less likely too than most people. It also usually takes some forced life shifts, like the vulnerability of getting older.
There are a plethora of other PDs besides narcissistic ones. Things like borderline personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder for example can be rehabilitated.
Long ago I worked on one of those wards with 40 "Martha's" each in their own special world with the goal of making you a part of it. My first day the ward lead bet me $10 that I wouldn't last a month. He won.
Totally agree!
When they terrorise you to the point of making someone want to complete suicide, yes they need to be criminalised. You can be mentally ill and a criminal at the same time. She has been told repeatedly by police to stop and did not. She had been told her actions were hurting someone and continued. Unfortunately, treatment isn’t always effective and in erotomania most won’t engage in meaningful therapy and medication doesn’t work.
My point has clearly flown right over your head. The point is, if she cannot help herself, then there is no *point t* to criminalise her, because that won't stop the behaviour. Surely the point is to stop this behaviour? It is destructive to the victim, *and* the perpetrator. Besides which, a criminal is usually sent to prison for a specific period of time, but someone sent to a psychiatric institution is sent indefinitely. So we're actually safer *not* criminalising people, because a psychiatric order will keep them off the streets until such time as a psychiatrist this they are well, amd not some arbitrary sentence. I know I am wasting my time trying to explain this, because clearly you're not interested in actual facts.
Hoping I’m not being stupid but since mental health care is not taken seriously or even seen as a human right, would criminalizing it (once certain thresholds are met) not at least allow an avenue of treatment? What is the fix then? And then I re-read and see your point. It’s just sad that mental health situations are not typically not identified or addressed until something bad has happened.
lack of empathy?, sounds like psychopathy
The same argument can be used for any inappropriate behaviour or crime. The people doing such things aren’t healthy whether they are diagnosed with a personality disorder or not. People don’t just do bad things. There’s always a reason for it. This just comes under the broader punishment vs rehabilitation debate regarding justice systems. I do agree that she is also a victim, and if you’re stuck in a cycle of shame and low self esteem, more shame from society will only make things worse. People with PDs already know subconsciously their actions are wrong. If they had an ego, they wouldn’t have a PD. However, if we can extend empathy and understanding to her circumstances, why do we refuse to for other criminals? It’s tricky finding the balance, especially as the public gets scared and demands severe punishment quite often.
This type of empathy is dangerous to the innocent. Is it sad that people suffer from these conditions? Yes. Is there some form of twisted logic to their reasoning? Sure. And it’s still horrific that they act the way they do and they should face social consequences for it. Holding compassion for them with a sort of “the poor dear" mentality without holding them equally accountable for the damage they do is enabling the problem. You’re to blame for what they do next as much as anyone if you know what they’re capable of and don’t stand for doing something (whatever that is) to protect the next innocent. You aren’t responsible for controlling a sick person’s behavior. But you are responsible for your own - and that includes excusing downright dangerous and traumatizing behavior. It’s the sad and rough and unjust task of a victim of trauma or a mental illness to have to clean up damage to themselves that they may not be responsible for causing. And nonetheless, they ARE still responsible. Especially for holding themselves back from continuing cycles of abuse.
Didn't Baby Reindeer make it clear at the end that she's also a victim?
It did. The creator specifically mentioned in interviews too that both of them were victims of each other. She made his life absolutely hell, but he also made her life difficult too by indulging it for so long. However for her to call herself "THE" victim seems... Short sighted.
"He also made her life difficult too by indulging it for so long" Absolutely. He was a very willing participant. In fact he's still doing it. "I just gave her a cup of tea" doesn't cut it when you write a play and then a Netflix show. Personally they both seem to be pretty clear cut borderline personalities to me.
and also to say that she "doesn't want people to know where she lives" but "will not be silenced" is such a contraciction. Like she's saying that she doesn't want the spotlight, but wants to perform.
Saying you want to speak out against something and also saying that you don't want people to know where you live is not a contradiction, lmfao
To be fair she probably doesn't want people egging her house, no?
Doesn't want an obsessed stalker. That would be awful for her.
Indeed. Her Facebook account is wide open, or at least her posts are. I counted 85 posts just in the last day. Based upon her writings and clear obsessive behavior, her character seems to have been very accurately portrayed.
Not just indulging it too long but intentionally going back and restarting the cycle all over again when she was finally backing off (because he wanted the attention I guess?) neither of them seem mentally well. And this whole clusterfuck of the show triggering her to come out and start up again just seems like another part of the saga where he could have left well enough alone but noooo he needed the attention.
Well said.
At first i felt really angry at this lady but I read more about her and shes clearly severely mentally ill and has a possible learning difficulty. She needs psychiatric care and treatment. In NO way am I defending her but I think commenting on her posts or sending nasty messages her feeds into her delusional perception of reality
It does. I looked at her FB page & did not try to engage. She contradicts herself so much,it's plain to see she isn't well mentally. But even knowing that,she still went after people that did nothing to hurt her. She is capable of being a terribly cruel person. Leave her to either do better or not,but engaging does nothing. She won't change.
I was pondering this cos i recently had (comparatively much minor) crazy person, and i think it boils down to: they care about their wants and needs more than they care about your right to say no
Yes narcissists imo are a type of mental illness. They will not see their actions as wrong,they can convince themselves of their 'truth'. They are like a dog with a bone. Toxic people are so draining to be around. At a certain point, people need to decide- do they keep giving away their time & energy to them or do they block it/them & live their best life away from toxicity? That's my view,anyway.
Aye I blocked her because tbh that profile is worrying and creepy - Shes most likely a psychopath with some sort of personality disorder
Her actual page has no commenting available. There's a fake account using her profile photo that is posting pretending to be her with lots of people commenting.
I saw a post from someone claiming to know her. According to them, she doesn't have a learning disability, but she is autistic. She's extremely intelligent but struggles with social interaction and has a very black and white way of thinking about the world.
And wasn’t she doing that to others even before him?
She is a "convicted stalked" in a dramatized Netflix show - people are forgetting this isn't a documentary.
Exactly, we know the story in the series isn't completely "true". For example in the show Martha is charged, prosecuted, and pleads guilty to the stalking and harassment of Donny etc, in reality that didn't happen and Gadd said the situation with irl Martha was "resolved" on its own.
Not being sarcastic but where is the evidence that she’s a convicted stalker? Would put a lot of things into perspective
Look up Fiona Harvey, charges/convictions. That's how I found it.
Do you have a link? When I google this, I only get twitter/tiktok results and articles about a murderer named Fiona Beal
Please share links when you get a second. I can't find any actual conviction info anywhere.
But for sure, as the note says, the guy falsely accused of sexually harassing another man IS the victim. This online harrasment campaigns "for a good cause" always end wrong, and people seem pretty lenient on allowing them to happen.
sexually harassing? i think you mean assaulting. he raped him
He was falsely accused?
Any evidence that she was convicted or you just basing your entire foundation off the show?
Right? It’s so obvious that she has severe main character syndrome
Sent from Nokia 3310
Sent from MY Nokia 3310
nkia
331bumhole
Sent from my Nokia 3103
Sent from Brother FAX 575
Sent by carrier pigeon
iphone
iphoen
Was it a 3310? I thought I clocked a 3210. Christ I need to get out more.
I just hope whoever inspired Teri is living her best life
Seriously, so much this. Owner of the best brain in that lot by a space shuttle's odometer.
Justice for Teri
I thought Nava Mau was amazing in the role too. Also not to be shallow but she's gorgeous.
Wasn't it the producer or one of the writers?
The guy who plays Donny is the guy who it happened to in real life. He also made sure to make the show as true to the real events as possible, only changing character names to protect the real people’s identities.
[удалено]
> Obviously Baby Reindeer isn't a documentary Apparently more people need to hear this. Though she outed herself... probably should have been quiet, then again the online sleuths probably were pestering/outing her themselves (which they were from the article) >but this woman's conviction is a matter of public record. Out of curiosity (I haven't seen the show or deeply researched this) but where did you get this information. If it's from the show... well refer to the first part once again.
She didn't out herself lmfao people found her on twitter. She had old tweets directed towards Richard talking about hanging her curtains
Send from iPhone??
Sent iphon
Ipohn
Aw jeez. I think i may have Mandela Effected myself here. Reportedly, the two settled but it's unclear if there was a conviction. Thanks for the sanity check.
No worries, man. Like I said, I don't know if there was a conviction or what happened in real life, just kind of seen the sleuthing and been disgusted by what I have been hearing.
These types always play the victim.
For sure. My stalker would say the same thing.
Mine did. "I'm the perfect person for you. Why won't you give me a chance???" We went on 4 measly dates and he stalked and harassed me for 6 years.
Heartbreaking to hear this. These people should be locked up. Being the object of someone’s obsession is extremely traumatic. And they never care about the damage they cause and they rarely ever pay any kind of price for it. Only the victims pay.
That's awful.
Same here. Always playing the victim card, and mine was a narcissist too.
Sorry to hear. These people are so dangerous.
My stalker did try and play the victim, it worked for 5 minutes.
Yup - my ex-husband raped me and tried to kill me on our living room floor and then called 911 because when I managed to elbow him in the sternum he hit his head on the bottom of the couch rolling off me - he told the police "look at my head, she did this." Then, as he was being arrested, said "she assaults me but I'm being arrested?!" Like, it wasn't even an act - he genuinely believed he was the victim. To this day, almost eight years later, he still thinks that.
Gadd straight up told people to not do this Edit: Guess victims wishes don’t mean anything anymore. Fuck him for thinking the best of people right? Y’all have some weird justifications.
In my experience, people who act like this are doing it for their own private reasons that are only marginally related to the person or the situation that triggered them. It's hardly in Gadd's power to curb their activities because they aren't doing this on his behalf, they're avenging their own private wrongs of which only they know the particulars. This here is kind of a catharsis, a bacchanal if you will, where everything is fair game to say or do to this universally despised figure.
Should have fictionalized her way more. His comment about how they "changed her so much" seems insincere and disingenuous now. He straight up showed her as is in the show.
He should’ve said that pub was anywhere but camden, he shouldn’t have made her Scottish, there are so many things he could’ve done to disguise her without compromising his excellent show
Yeah, I mean even using F's middle name that's clearly stated on her profile as her name in the show.
I genuinely believe he didn’t want people harassing her, but the ‘she wouldn’t even recognise herself’ line had me rolling my eyes a bit, because that’s really stretching it. Like … suspect it might be based on you? Here’s an easy flowchart: Have you ever stalked Richard Gadd? No - it’s not you, rest easy. Yes - hate to say this, chick, but it’s probably you. Alternatively, yes - are there other people who stalked Richard Gadd even more obsessively than you? No - it’s you. Yes - nah, it’s probably one of them.
It’s a figure of speech, it’s not literal. It means if she read a description of the character she wouldn’t recognise it as her. Not that she literally wouldn’t recognise herself in the show.
Gadd is also incredibly naive to think people aren’t going to look up Fiona. He knew this would happen so any calls to leave Fiona alone is simply futile.
I mean, I think he had reasonable expectations that people wouldn't sleuth. The stage play had been going on a while with no incident.
He probably didn’t expect the series to get so big, but unfortunately I think playing himself invites it a bit.
The show is on Netflix, genuinely what did he expect? I honestly think he should either made it a documentary or done more to separate it from himself. People are going to feel emotionally conflicted about him telling us someone did all this horrible things to him in real life (whilst he’s also playing himself) and then being told to do nothing about it. It was a very emotive and difficult piece of work to watch. Honestly can’t blame people for finding it difficult to grapple with the two.
Yeah… I think he should’ve gotten someone else to play him if his goal was not to demonize the real life people. I liked the series, but in general I’m not a fan of artists dramatizing their own lives for this reason. It blurs the line between reality and fiction too much.
The first thing I do when I watch a 'true story' is look up how much of that story is true. I don't get the mindset of people who harass others online but it's not inconceivable that the internet would do this.
This is just virtue signaling. Gadd knew people would do this and so did Netflix.
"Yeah, we changed the woman loads, I totally don't want you to look for my stalker as some form of retribution." He can't exactly say "fuck this bitch, I want you to harrass her, can he? That being said, no idea why anyone would give people abuse online?
What’s the most wild is that Gadd has refused to comment on or give any info on who any of the real people his show is based on are. And recently also asked people to stop speculating. And if she had just remained silent it probably would’ve died down eventually. But her unhinged Facebook posts make it SO clear that it’s her because she writes and expresses herself in the EXACT same way as Martha. Like Gadd could have written these Facebook posts himself as dialogue for Martha.
>And if she had just remained silent it probably would’ve died down eventually. This is probably not true. Internet dog piles are absolutely relentless. She is mentally unwell and expected to listen to 1000s of people a day screaming at her.
I disagree. They’re relentless for a period of time and always die down when people find the next thing they’re going to pile on… unless that person does something that continually exacerbates the pile on… which imho is what publicly engaging directly with it does. A few months ago everyone was piling on Jennifer Lopez. Then that stopped and everyone started piling on Jojo Siwa, which is just now starting to die down. Yes, internet pile ons can be extremely upsetting and destabilizing, but no, they aren’t forever. And no you can’t stop them by making some kind of public statement. The only way to stop them is to do all you can not to feed into them and draw them out, and if anything escalates to a credible threat to one’s safety, reporting to the proper authorities. Tbc, this is not an endorsement of people piling on her. I think it’s gross. And I think people should heed Gadd’s words and stop trying to figure out who these people are, and harassing them. And again, it’s not to say she should do nothing. But yes, I do think her going on Facebook rants about it is only going to exacerbate the pile on and draw it out further.
You’ve clearly never seen the website Tattle Life where there are 100s of threads slagging off the same people spanning years.
> And if she had just remained silent it probably would’ve died down eventually. Problem is it wasn't... Read the article, people were already harassing her. Not going to say if it's deserved... because it's not. Period. Gadd has refused to say who she was, and even if he did, it's not the public's place to threaten her, especially when we only have one side of the story.
Right it was reaching its peak. Hence why people were harassing her. I’m saying if she just laid low it likely would’ve died down over the next few months. We can agree to disagree!
So wait... people have directly found her, are sending her death threats, telling her to kill herself, and doxxing... and you're opinion is "Let it go for a few months..." WTF?
No. I feel like you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying here. She should report any death threats and doxxing to the appropriate authorities, and do whatever she needs to do legally to fight against that. I’m saying that *this public statement* only FEEDS the trolls, makes people MORE certain it was her, and exacerbates the harm she’s already experiencing. And so when I’m saying she should lay low, all I’m saying is she shouldn’t post what amounts to rants about the situation on her Facebook. Report any threats. Stay away from public statements. And let it die down. What she did instead feeds the beast and keeps the cycle going. That’s all I’m saying.
Absolutely agree
HA yeah every time the credits rolled with written by RG I thought, shouldn’t “martha” get a credit the way he’s reading her emails/texts out
Where can I find these unhinged facebook posts? Lol
So who is she) I keep hearing about her X and Facebook posts but where? And who?
Please lets not perpetuate this. Best to let it die off.
People like her always try the reverse uno card.
I don’t know him, actually he tried to date me, and I have no criminal record all in one post lol. Including the infamous typos too.
iPhoen
Fake Martha better get that Emmy.
It really is a great performance the way she can appear "normal", manic, depressed etc. depending on what the scene calls for.
I’m curious if Richard had her just review her entire online history and found videos to get her personality down. Just really damn good.
She was so good
She’s AMAZING!
He most certainly had empathy for her. Bet she don't like that stalking now tables are turned. She's not mentally well god bless
Yep, as expected, people did not understand the point of the series, this blew up in a negative way
I think they very much understood this woman is insane and disgusting.
Which wasn’t the point of the series
The people going after her are playing a very dangerous game. This person needs to be given a wide berth. It's a classic fuck around and find out.
Good point! But sadly some love to take that risky route as they want the thrill of witnessing the hornet nest exploding after they’ve poked it.
This is straight outta Blackmirror at this point
I hate that people had to dig and find this lady.
Same here. Everyone here is blaming Gadd for telling his story but holy shit, the fault lies with the audience! I watched the show and thought it was equally horrific as it was brilliant. Yet, when I finished, I had no desire to know who the real stalker was. I was prepared to move on to my next TV show. Thousands of people have not only found out who she was, but then proceeded to harass and threaten her. Why are these people's lives so empty that they feel like they need to get involved in Gadd's life? The dude has been through enough and now because of them, he probably has another shitstorm coming his way. Seriously, people are fucked up!
Yeah that's something that would just never enter the average person's head.
So the real life Martha is a total narcissist who is gonna use this to go on a "I'm a victim" press tour, big shock!.
She's mentally unwell. People do not need to be contacting her.. why can you not understand that?
Maybe this clearly mentally ill woman will end up committing suicide and then you can all sleep soundly having got your pound of flesh.
Don't know if you were intending to reference it, but the way people are treating this, it does come off as a version of "Britney's New Look" from South Park. Kind of like Tiger King, kind of like Making a Murderer, kind of like these Murder Porn documentaries isn't a good thing... which is also an episode of South Park.
Victim and victimizer. Both can be true of both of them.
I will admit that I found the point of the show to conclude that she was not even the bad guy, or the most damaged. Great show and ending. Very complex and unexpected.
This is all very well, but can we find the piece of shit that r*ped him?
THIS! Why is nobody talking about that guy?
People are but as per usual the internet investigators have gotten it wrong and are harassing an innocent person.
Because it was a man and people prefer witch hunts
She needs to watch the show to understand how he wrote her character. She says that she doesn’t look like the character. If he wanted to out her, he could have found an actress who looked just like her.
If she's as mentally ill as portrayed in the show, watching it isn't going to help her understand anything.
You’re right, I forgot that she’s not mentally well. I guess I meant that she’ll see that Darrien is written as someone who takes advantage of another person and she is written as someone who is not well and is upset when her advances are rejected.
The actress who plays her is actually stunning but yeah, there's a resemblance. He made it seem like she's like this thin blonde and the furthest thing and it's just not true.
I haven’t looked into what she looks like IRL so I’ll take your word for it. The actress, Jessica Gunning, was excellent. I hope we get to see more from her in the future.
She was in Pride which is an excellent film :)
Is this Fiona?
Yeh she’s been unhinged on Facebook today, I didn’t know who she was but kept seeing her posts pop up on my timeline and fell down the rabbit hole.
How did her posts just 'pop up' on your timeline? Don't quite understand how people can watch a TV show about how devastating stalking is and their main take-away is "I should track down one of these people in real life and starting stalking their social media activity."
It’s going viral right now She’s posting every 2 minutes to her page
Is she just accepting all friend requests?
I don’t know, I didn’t request to be her friend - a Facebook friend of mine interacted with a couple of her posts and that’s why they came up on my timeline I guess - I haven’t even watched Baby Reindeer
Did you friend request her? I went to her page yesterday and everything was private and couldn't see any posts.
Same
Fiona?
Shrek?
As much victim blaming is going on in this post, no one should be getting death threats serious enough for the police to be involved. Regardless of how one feels about the series, no one should die over it.
People that sexually assault people, idgaf about them.
She SA’d him. She can rot.
Can we all agree though that this woman clearly has something wrong with her? Like she genuinely needs help.
Sounds like a sequel!
So she’s pissed, yet the woman portraying her “Doesn’t even look like me.”
"I'm not Martha! I'm not Fiona!" She says about a movie where Richard is not "Donny" but is Richard!
I think there's some irony here with the real life consequences playing out in light of this series. One of the main themes is the injustice around the punishment of Martha, a woman experiencing serious mental illness, in contrast with the mentor, who evaded any consequence for the harm he perpetuated with a sound mind. The main character is so focused on his pursuit of fame that he's able to repress or minimize the harms of the mentor at the end of the series, while demonstrating compassion and empathy for Martha throughout. In reality, the main character and writer of the series has finally reached the degree of fame and success he's been struggling to attain, and now the real life Martha is experiencing the internet blowback - more consequences for her actions. It seems like this series attempts to illustrate the complexities of interpersonal relationships and experiences with harm, the harm that's perpetuated by the legal system, the failures of our mental health and social service systems, and the everyday struggles of living under capitalism, and so it's sad to see how this all plays out.
I have thoughts about this show and the fact that victim and perpetrator are absolutely blurred here. This is another example of it.
Completely unrelated but what is up with internet users trying to find the real life people portrayed in the show ? What is the reason for it? I’ve never understood why people are driven to do that and what it serves them at the end of the day.
She's a convicted stalker not the victim. Trouble is there is no help or support for people like her, so what do you do lock them up for life to protect the innocent. ?????
She's insane unfortunately
“Serial stalker torments barristers child” She sick.
I stalked someone who made a series based on me stalking them UwU I’m th victim.
After months of complaining about Netflix not having a "watercooler show" the way they used every year I have to admit they have done it with this show. I've seen posts where people mention their co-workers talking about it. I just started watching and have been thinking about it all day and can't even concentrate on work. As for the real life Martha although what she did was a crime she clearly has \*severe\* mental illness. And I understand lots of people have had stalkers too and they bring it up every time someone expresses sympathy for Martha. We get it. But your ex-husband or boyfriend who had a job and was functional in most aspects of his life stalking you because he was an abusive control freak isn't the same as a person with \*severe\* mental illness who can't work or function in society having OCD and not distinguishing between reality and delusion. It would have been easy to change the character enough that online sleuths wouldn't figure out who she was but Netflix executives probably decided it would increase social media engagement if people found out who "the crazy woman" was and interacted with her. I can't deny that while I enjoy the show it does make me feel bad for participating in what they did to a person with a medical condition that altered their brain chemistry through no fault of their own.
Darvo
Congrats internet detectives.
Unfortunately mental illness doesn’t give people a free pass to torment people, terrify them and ruin their lives. She seems to have not been held accountable and her behavior should be exposed. If she is a danger do society, she needs to be secluded from it
If it were a male stalker who terrorized a woman, no one would have an issue of people tracking him down
British tabloid hacks doing Satan’s work by stirring shit up needlessly as always…
Not read all the posts here but Richard Gadd should probably have understood once you put something like this in the public domain as a true story, some people with inevitably want to unravel the mystery. Naive really to think noone would try that. From what I have read, there are obvious links on Twitter which point to this woman's identity eg the curtains quote. It's a brilliant piece of work: confusing and challenging, lots to think about. However, I do struggle to understand how a person that traumatised, could act out the part, knowing they were reenacting their own very personal trauma. Catharsis is one thing but reenacting abuse, I don't know. I mean, I couldn't. Brilliantly written, wonderfully executed by the cast but something doesn't sit right for me
Narcissists are amazing at always finding a way to be the victim
I get the impression she wouldn't engage in therapy or take meds. She doesn't think she needs help.
She's not a victim tho if what is shown is true, her mental health is her concern if she is literally stalking then she's a criminal mental health or not
Exactly what Martha would say
That’s exactly what Martha would say.
Did she send this from her iPhone?
Iphon
Poster child for DARVO. Stalking is terrifying to the victims. Anyone with half an ounce of empathy knows this. Stop doing it, just stop. Get a hobby and hyperfocus on something else.
i think netflix should be paying for some treatment for her,they made a lot of money off her back
She was obviously the villain in the original stalking, but now she certainly is the victim of the movie. She didn’t choose to put her story out there, she’s faced the legal consequences of her actions as a private citizen like anyone else in her situation. Now suddenly a global hate mob is arising focused on one single woman just because her victim happened to make his story famous. Internet mobs can be horrific, especially if you arent mentally well.
> the movie The biggest problem with what the public has done is... it's a movie. I honestly DO believe Gadd didn't intend this. But the public does what the public does and takes shit too far.
I don’t think crazy internet people should be working out who she is and stalking her, as others have said he’s been clear she was a victim too. I’m surprised no sleuths have worked out who the producer is, because likeliness is he didn’t just do that to Gadd he did it to others and as far as I know he hasn’t repented or acknowledged or been convicted of his horrific crimes.
shit Martha would say
She's being harassed and receiving death threats. That isn't right, regardless of the past. Everyone who's even interested in finding out who she is needs to check themselves. Your curiosity is not more important than another person's privacy. Stop being a selfish piece of shit