It’s the massachusetts sub too that does this. I think a lot of it is people who live in the 495 suburban bubble. A lot of them/their parents white-flighted out of the inner cities and since then have maintained a certain attitude.
Irl it just gets grating.
Edit: it’s not just inside 495. They exist in WMass/CT/elsewhere too.
As someone who lives in Central Massachusetts (almost Western if you go by how close I am to Franklin County) I feel this. People will drive to northern NH and Vermont and carry on how beautiful it is should check out the rest of their own state. Or make fun of the towns in Central Massachusetts and Western Massachusetts. I lived in Boston for many years and love the city but it is not the end all. It irks me.
I once argued with someone who said that Leominster is basically the middle of nowhere. I very calmly stated that the twin city area had about 100,000 residents and is 20 minutes from Worcester and 50 minutes from Boston. Got downvoted to hell.
Grew up in the 495 belt and you nailed it. I went to rural Maine for college and have been all over New England now. Western MA, Northern CT, and Northern MA border by NH have great "rural" areas to hang out.
I'm in the 84/90 corridor, and you're absolutely right. I often joke that everyone forgets there's life on this side of 495, especially with the way our state is run, but it's sadly true.
Uh, a lot of people who didn't grow up in the bubbles/invisible dome have been saying that for years. They also have a very naive assumption everyone living in those towns/cities are broke or don't come from wealthy families that have deliberately chosen to not live in the bubbles out of seeing them as like being inside a fishbowl. When I was a kid I thought being "educated" or emphasizing it meant that it would be a wordly lot not so...provincial.
We make fun of country bumpkins and hillbillies but somehow ignore the townies are the same and possibly worse.
Yeah, I mean I live in Cambridge, so not exactly voting with my feet here, but I grew up in Upstate NY, so I have a certain chip on my shoulder about places that don't fall within the major metro of a region being written off entirely.
Upstate NY is so disrespected that it all gets lumped in as “Upstate” even though it’s…the majority of the state and has several distinct regions
It’s weird
I went to Cornell and was originally from a different part of the country. Someone said they were going to "the city" one weekend early in freshman year. I asked if they meant Syracuse or Rochester...
Yes! It's basically the Boston suburbs that defines New England, not even folks from City of Boston proper. Can get a bit provincial in the 495 suburban bubble for a part of the region that's so educated and affluent, hence some of their ignorance about Connecticut and other places in New England.
Grew up on CT. Lived in Hartford for a few years. It definitely is grating, especially when you really love the place and people just shit on it with no actual experience. I was a suburb kid too so I got both sides.
Hartford has its rough spots, but there are some great spots like Pratt Street, The convention center area with UConn Hartford. And the riverfront it’s not all bad
What’s sad is Hartford was heavily bulldozed for cars with big highways to suburbs. Hartford could be such a great city, but it’s held back by horrific “urban renewal” from the mid 20th century.
On that note, imagine how cool and exciting Springfield’s Connecticut River waterfront would be if it weren’t for I-91? Southern New England’s Connecticut river metropolises were dealt a huge blow by urban highways.
Well it's also a numbers game right? The vast majority of people in MA live close to Boston. So they're going to seem over-represented attitudinally in subs like this.
I grew up in Brockton and now live in the 495 belt.
I've seen needles on the playground, and I went to school with a guy who went to jail for being in a drive by shooting. I could ride my bike only 2 blocks in 1 direction before I could run into people selling drugs or sex.
I've earned the right to sh*t on Brockton as much as I want.
Just because someone is down on a city, it doesn't mean that they are wrong.
And, FYI, I still go back on occasion for Italian Kitchen and Cape Cod Cafe.
Fairfield County here. We get approximately 3/100 positive mentions on this thread. Pisses me off, tbh. There’s good and bad like every area, but I grew up here and am fiercely proud of my land.
Meanwhile, Portland is the TWENTY-NINTH largest city in New England!!
(according to [Wikipedia ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_New_England_by_population))
(Biased) I would still say it’s the best NE city, though. The Old Port has a better and more fun bar scene than Boston and it’s far more walkable and less expensive. Much better water views too
Honestly, I feel like downtown Portland had become one big tourist trap. I live about an hour away and used to go in a lot.
There is a jaded feeling to many of the waitstaff (I get it I waitressed in Ogunquit!), service industry folks are so stretched with the housing situation. It feels like all of the patrons read about Portland on yelp and ate taking photos of their food and selfies for Instagram.
It’s funny. Every NYer I know loves Providence, takes yearly trips on the train to visit. Loves the vibe, respects the city culture etc. But basically half of the people I know in the Boston area make fun of me for living here, they haven’t been in 15 years but swear it’s a shithole.
I always assume it’s this weird entitlement mixed with a sense of insecurity that New England’s second city is better than Boston in a lot of ways.
I’m from the Hartford area, I love Providence but also get frustrated because Hartford is a similar type city just executed poorly. The state really needs to redo the highways or it’ll stay this way
Yeah I was thinking this. Those two are middle tier at least. Hartford is another story, I grew up near Hartford and even though New Haven is a half hour drive it’s so different and much more vibrant
Yeah I’ve heard lots of people refer to providence as ghetto and similar to Hartford and Worcester there are nice areas in both just like anywhere, but again like anywhere else it’s a city and it’s bound to have bad areas that’s just how it goes
I've always been very glad that I've been able to explore a lot of New England without even needing a car! Providence, Lowell, Worcester, Salem (commuter rail), Springfield and Northampton, Portland (by bus). I've tried to visit as much of NE as I can.
Worcester used to be pretty much a dump (I lived nearby in the 1970s). Last few times I visited, it seemed nice a nice small city. Nice restaurants and bars, some classy, some dive-y. Interesting music venues. New minor league ball field. And so on.
There are a lot of sheltered suburban folk in the surrounding communities that have a really bad view of Worcester and especially Main South.
It’s not bad at all and for a city of its size, the “hood” is pretty normal. Definitely some sketchy activity but nothing really too bizarre.
There is a small gangbanger element in Worcester but it’s not like they are out committing random acts of violence against strangers.
Having lived in Boston, Providence and Worcester, there is not a single part of Worcester that I wouldn’t feel comfortable walking around.
There were a couple of streets in Boston that I avoided. And the only really scary situation I have ever run into was in Providence back in the 90’s.
Worcester is really kicking it right now. Hope the trend continues. Would be awesome to have another fun small city to visit in the neighborhood for years to come. Providence is getting played out haha.
Kicking it, as in, kicking all the current residents out with rent increases as more people from Boston keep moving here for the lower cost of living (can’t blame them but still)
I used to work in Lawrence, which at the time was last in per capita income of all Mass cities/towns. That city has its struggles, but it’s a far cry from what would be considered dangerous or economically moribund in other regions of the USA. There are cities that have homicide rates multiples higher than anything in Mass, and economic blight to the point of entire blocks and neighborhoods abandoned.
The rap Lawrence gets is insane! Spend 5 minutes on any site/forum and you would think it was some crazy dangerous city rather than a working-class immigrant community (as it has ALWAYS been!)
It might be partly boomers and long memories, because some of those places used to have far more crime than they do now. Some of them have really been revitalized by immigrant communities in the more recent past, after just being miserably depressed former milltowns— it can be hard to get out from under that reputation. Lowell is a great example, it’s not the city it was 30 years ago, and a lot of that credit goes to its immigrant community.
Others actually do have crime problems, and it depends on where you’re coming from. The fact is that New Haven at night, especially if you don’t know the neighborhoods, is going to be trickier to wander around safely than Burlington or Salem. There is random crime in New Haven. There’s random crime in Springfield. They are not Baltimore or Detroit, but they are both cities where it’s not a bad idea to know where you are and where you’re going, especially at night (true of some Boston neighborhoods as well of course)!
“Random crime in Springfield”- there’s really not. There’s crime but only the typical crime you’d associate w poverty. Never been in a spot of bother my whole life even in “dangerous” areas at night. Only way you’ll be caught up in something is if you’re already involved w some mess.
Well I wouldn’t walk Eastern Ave at night that’s for sure. That stretch from State street to Hickory street is pretty much where all the action happens.
The rest of the city is pretty much like every where else. Be aware of your surroundings and don’t go looking for trouble.
I'm from Hartford, CT. This has been the attitude to my home city my entire life. Last week a prep school teacher with whom I work--and actually like--called Hartford "a toilet" even after I told him I was from there.
Grew up in Wethersfield still live in the area, I feel for Hartford. They’ve made some mistakes but the highway wasn’t their fault and probably caused most of the issues that we see today. But things are on the up and up with the yard goats, new apartments and restaurants. It’ll take some time but I love the riverfront and going their for festivals
I appreciate this, but I think part of the problem candidly is that Wethersfield, for example, borders Hartford but the New England culture of autonomous towns makes many people from place like Wethersfield feel like Hartford isn't a concern of theirs or that they aren't contributing to the issues. The state of Hartford is a regional problem being blamed on the city itself.
If the highway went where it was originally planned Springfield could have really developed the real estate along the river. Instead the leaders in Springfield at the time felt that if the highway didn’t run through Springfield the downtown would suffer. Kind of prophetic that by putting it there they pretty much killed their downtown for decades.
I think it’s really more classism than racism. For example, Lowell MA and Burlington MA were both regarded as having a (relatively) large Asian population when I was growing up. Lowell is stereotyped as shoddy, whereas Burlington is stereotyped as fancy. The difference being wealth.
Growing up I also heard Revere lumped in with those cities - which was majority white, lower income (at that time), and supposedly had high drug use.
also in Lowell it’s Khmer people who a lot of other Asian communities unfortunately look down on.
source: friends with Khmer people who talk about this shit every so often
I’ve driven through all of Hartford and rarely feel unsafe, like people mind their own business. But I go to a much “safer” city like Middletown and a bunch of homeless people are catcalling my gf. Idk I think Hartford gets an unfair rep at times
Hot take: Worcester was absolutely destroyed by highways. It has no downtown. It is just a collection of random roads and businesses.
It's a city for New Englanders that hate New England cities and want car-based sprawl.
Absolutely. This happens with New Bedford. Really great city and people act like it’s terrible. I’ve had some friends visit from the Cape, literally shocked that the coastal area and downtown are as scenic as they are. “Well you know, you hear all the terrible things about New Bedford…”. Another friend of mine from Orange County has visited numerous times and is obsessed.
Yes, there IS crime here. And just like in most cities with a sizable population if you are not involved in gangs, drugs, or other high-risk activities it is unlikely that crime will find you. I’ve lived in a few different places and traveled extensively throughout most of the US. And I still think this little city in the armpit of MA is a very special place. We have beautiful coastal areas and parks, vibrant cultural communities with the cool things that accompany them, and the gorgeous Southcoast woodsy/farm towns are a quick drive away.
The first time I went to New Bedford I was shook. I went for work and frankly I was a little excited bc I figure there’d be some sea related history. I’d also heard that that it was on the same wave as Worcester. I was very pleasantly surprised by what I found there. Nice people and nice cafes etc. Yeah it was a little ‘rough’ but thats just a byproduct of having old industrial buildings and relative poverty.
And I have explained that ‘city=some crime duh’ so many times but idk ppl cant grasp it
Yeah the “rough” parts are just humanity. I don’t know. It kind of pisses me off when people are so judgemental like that. (Not you, I mean this is the whole point of your post). You dig deeper, and there’s such nasty attitudes towards places that are largely solid working class populations with some poverty.
When I lived in Southern California I was in a relationship for a while with the black sheep son of a Real Housewives neighbor. Like, this lady decided at the last minute that she didn’t want to do the show but she was in their friend group. That was a wild year for me, being thrown into that world after having grown up in NB. Anyways, those fancy-ass people all have their own complicated issues, their own drug or alcohol problems, their own baggage. But because they can dress it up real pretty they think they’re better than the “types” of people in “rough” cities. It’s the same shit, just wrapped in a pretty bow.
I’m not saying everyone in New Bedford is amazing, but there are plenty of solid people who genuinely care a lot about the welfare of our community and its people. We’re real people, with all the beauty and struggles that accompany that. Humanity.
I feel the same way about Fall River! People shit on Fall River all the time, and it has a bad rap that’s totally unwarranted. There are sketchy parts… and beautiful parts, and a huge middle class that’s so diverse! It’s a really great city.
I was born in Rutland Vt and currently live in Barre. Both cities get crap all the time from Vermonters and others. I love Barre. Sure it has its problems, but the only way change is going to happen is if people who care move there. And it’s a beautiful city! The granite statues are incredible and the architecture is world class.
Downtown Rutland is fairly attractive around Wales Street and Merchants Row. The Paramount Theater is a gem. Restaurants come and go. I was sorry to see Table 24 close last summer. It has the usual poverty and drug problems but it’s not a bad place.
Most People in VT/NH will call anywhere with a population over 15k a shithole / ghetto. My inlaws call Nahua NH Nash-ganistan and Manchester NH Manch-ganistan.
We have a lot of poverty, and a reputation for drugs. But the day to day folks who live here never get mentioned. Our local bike shop donated 100 new bicycles that lost their warranties in the flood to Pedals for Progress, which sends bikes to third world countries. Our local LGBTQ + community center worked tirelessly during the flood last year to get resources to citizens, but none of this stuff ever gets publicity. We aren’t the “Vermont” people think of, we are working class people, not Stowe or Burlington. So we get made fun of.
Yup if you’re in Massachusetts and you’re west of Worcester you pretty much don’t exist. Even our state capital acts like we don’t exist. Which is why our cities have such bad urban decay. Boston takes our state taxes but we get nothing in return. Our highways are falling apart. Our schools are failing.
And as far as POC, many cities in western Mass, like Holyoke, Chicopee, and Springfield, have large communities of many ethnicities. The Latino and Asian communities are quite large here. If my children’s class photos are any indication, I would even say that Latinos are the majority here in Springfield. We aren’t just a bunch of white redneck mountain hillbillies here. We have diverse communities with great music and food and art and museums.
I think the fact that we also don’t have the ‘typical’ Massachusetts/Boston accent throws people off. Everyone assumes we all talk like that in this state. And when they talk to us and we sound totally different we aren’t seen as true Massholes.
Not to say Western Mass isn’t forgotten about on beacon Hill. But Western Mass communities actually get more state money coming back than they put in. But there’s still money that could be spent out here to make everyone’s lives easier. Western Mass folks fund the MBTA but really don’t benefit from it. Maybe the state should help Springfield implement a mass transit system outside of the PVTA. Springfield, West Springfield, Chicopee, Holyoke, Ludlow, East Longmeadow, Longmeadow and Westfield could benefit from either an expanded PVTA or another form of mass transit.
>Springfield, West Springfield, Chicopee, Holyoke, Ludlow, East Longmeadow, Longmeadow and Westfield could benefit from either an expanded PVTA or another form of mass transit.
they should connect to Northampton and to Greenfield beyond as well. There's no good reason we can't get from one end of the Pioneer Valley to the other to do business, visit family, work, enjoy recreation... It's 45 minutes up 91, not a trip to the moon.
I figure there are certain people in certain towns who don’t want that. Who you ask? The ones who feel confident enough to get up in a televised council meeting and tell us to “Keep our dirty money in Springfield.”
They def think its just white hillbillies out here which is weird bc even in the hilltowns theyre in the minority. I’d say our population of Latinos outweighs black folk now and idk if they’d even know. Tbh I think theyd write it off as “ethnics are over there- don’t go. Danger!” (satire)
They have a very myopic view of the state
Sometimes I think the 413 should just split off and form its own state. West Massachusetts with Springfield as its capital. We could keep our state taxes here instead of them all going to fund Boston’s upkeep. Then maybe I wouldn’t have to drive the pothole obstacles course every day on my way to work. At least once a year I have to do some sort of repair to my car from falling into a pothole the size of a swimming pool.
Can confirm. Boston proper and the people inside 128 just love to take the city's tax revenues but have no interest in the city beyond that. What's truly insane is the holier than Thou attitudes of the people within 128 towards people from SE Massachusetts - whether Fall River. New Bedford or Taunton
Sure, each city has crime. But after working in a Boston hospital, I can tell you that none of the towns within 128 are peaceful utopias either. These people walk around with their noses in the air and you wanna just grab a newspaper, roll it up and smack it, tell them to put their nose down because at the end of the dsy they're no better......but you don't because they'd freak.
Hey! Finally some appreciation for Brockton! Do you love fighting and Italian food (and Caribbean! ). Brockton is your spot! All kidding aside I love Brockton food and cape cod cafe pizza is the gold standard. Watch out for the Caribbean food. It is deceptively spicy.
I was rushed to Lynn Hospital after I broke my arm and the ambulance almost got run off the road just over the GE bridge, by the bowling alley. We almost flipped and the lady and her kids just kept going.
That's why I said relatively, as in relative to Metro Boston. That sucks, I'm sorry. I am surprised that Malden, on the Orange Line, is more affordable than Lynn right now.
I'm from the deep south and despised Boston and Portsmouth ...
.... and loved New Bedford. Go figure. The people actually seemed real and could talk about something other than their possessions.
My dad's from Barcelona and Mom's from Latin America, but they're both doctors. Both of them prefer the "milltowns" over what they call the "bubble wrap world" (the small towns). They're both big city people though and think the countryside where there's not much interaction with your neighbors plus no range of restaurants is their nightmare. They like the particular towns for the same reasons you said, they felt the people are more normal and grounded than too many of the yuppies masquerading as blue collar workers here.
It’s so bad and very telling. Honestly, it doesn’t bother me as much. I see a lot of the suburbs and NIMBY towns as boring, pearl-clutching, and lacking culture anyway so maybe I’m not much better 🤷🏾♂️
Taunton, Fall River and New Bedford. There’s so many good places to eat especially the Portuguese food and alot of history to explore. Many people don’t realize how important that area of the state was from the colonial period all the way through ww2. Plus despite being urban areas none of these cities are very far from nature or the little idilc towns.
That’s because people gravitate toward modern, sanitized, gentrified cities full of luxury lofts, expensive dogs, bicycles, tech bros and gals, tattoos, craft breweries, healthy bakeries, live music, a gay district, and maybe an ocean or a mountain. This is now mainstream.
Here in New England we have a whole bunch of very old, working class, forgotten, gritty around the edges cities full of character, charm, and ethnic diversity. Some of them remain as they’ve always been, while others get noticed and blow up (Worcester, Lowell, etc.)
I actually like the gritty ones. There’s just something nice about it. Locals are way nicer than you’d expect. Fitchburg, Fall River, New Bedford, Lawrence, Manchester, NH, etc. all have lots to offer and great communities. But can definitely feel super sketchy in parts.
Been living in Holyoke for almost a decade now and haven't witnessed a single violent crime. The dude who stole a whole turkey from Sav-A-Lot was pretty funny, but hardly felt like my life was in danger.
Not going to pretend there aren't problems, but to hear some people tell it you'd think this is a warzone.
In Massachusetts, the concentration of power in Boston is a significant problem that is harmful to the rest of the state. The largest city also is the state capital. All the money goes to Boston and Boston metro and the rest of the state is flyover country that gets crumbs. This will never change. And as resources become more constrained, it’s likely to get worse.
The Pike will never be wide enough. Commuter rail will never get better so why not make Worcester, Springfield, etc. more appealing to big and small businesses, create more affordable housing in those flyover cities, open up the zoning and planning playbook to encourage smart-development, create a positive cycle of livability.
I almost had my puppy stolen by a random drugged out guy in Hartford, every suburb of Hartford is safer and more fun. Can’t speak much on the other cities but yeah.
Hartford is a crappy city, it’s not lived in like a proper city. New Haven is way better for CT! And I know people live in Hartford, just that they have such a big wealth divide, and their downtown feels dead because no one lives there
It’s just the nature of the businesses too, Hartford is insurance and 9-5 jobs and no one stays they go back to the suburbs. New Haven has Yale/pharma jobs and people are much more inclined to stick around at night
People also actually live in downtown New Haven, relatively barely anyone lives in downtown Hartford. New Haven actually has one of the most even distributions of populations across it’s area of any city it’s size
I have a coworker from a tiny rural New Haven county town and her parents moved to New Haven for retirement. The exact demographic of people you’d think would be wagging their fingers and complaining about crime from their 3000 sq ft homes now seeing how great New Haven is. Really hope CT and New Haven realize the promise of the city and invest in it properly.
Springfield has its problems, but it’s also an amazing city full of potential and amazing history. But it also has a major self esteem problem. The people that shit on Springfield the most seem to be people from Springfield.
THE SELF ESTEEM ISSUE
Omg I’ve never heard anyone else say that. That’s the heart of the issue in my opinion and that’s especially sad. It’s like people shit on you so much you start believing it. You can’t build of you have no pride in yourself.
There are some who do, but theyre unlikely to be supported.
Having lived in and traveled to other parts of the country, it always feels like we're more critical of and competitive with other cities in New England. I think that hurts us as people love to knock the next city over.
I think we also have a weird competition from having so many mid size cities so close to each other. Springfield, Worcester, Hartford, Providence, New Haven, and Bridgeport.
Dude the amount of people in western mass, all older white people mind you, who are TERRIFIED of Holyoke MA is insane. These idiots are scared to death and back of going to Target at the damn mall
Also, just putting it out there because where the hell else am I going to? I briefly worked for the Chicopee DPW/water department, in the office, and let me tell you I have NEVER worked around a more racist, classist, AND ageist (which doesn't make sense cause like, how are you gonna treat the elderly like trash when you're pushing 60 yourself?) group of people in my life. The kinds of people who make fun of people trying to pay their (totally overpriced and often completely unfair) water bills the moment their out of earshot.
That’s wild and to think that their whole job is to make sure the public is served as well. I think that attitudes pervasive in many jobs where you have “power” over people and you aren’t likely to get fired/likely got the job because you knew someone there
Being from a Berkshire hilltown and having previously lived on the South Side of Chicago for six years, I can tell you that neither Chicago or Holyoke are as bad as the fearmongers make them out to be. I had a great time in Chitown, and I love going to shows at Race Street Live.
I think its because New England is romanticized for its charm and idyllic nature. Cities like the ones you mentioned definitely go against that generalization and are in pretty bad urban decay. With that being said youre absolutely right they still play a vital role in making New England what it is. I'm from New Haven county and I love that city DEARLY.
yes. interesting AF.
I thought popularity contests and hierarchical standards were autophagic by nature, with the end of high school signifying their ceremonial deaths.
turns out people are petty AF for their whole lives.
I mean when people think of vibrant New England cities they think of a walkable downtown, narrow streets, food, etc.
Cities like Worcester were destroyed by highways. What is the downtown? There is no downtown. It's just a collection of roads and businesses. That's not a real city. I know that technically it's the 2nd biggest city by population but Providence is actually more of a city than Worcester. Worcester just counts a ton more single family homes as part of "the city"
You’re spot on!
Worcester is only the 2nd biggest in population because it’s nearly twice the land area as Providence. Providence and Pawtucket are both Much denser than Worcester. If you expanded Providence into surrounding areas to be the same physical size as Worcester it would be a city of 330-350,000. Worcester on the other hand is surrounded by very suburban towns with low density
So functionally Providence is really significantly larger than Worcester.
Never had a bad experience in Holyoke or Springfield, honestly they’re chill. I love providence . I make fun of Hartford/new haven/Bridgeport because I was born/raised in those areas lol Love Worcester and miss working there tbh don’t have much experience with Lowell and Lawrence.
You could be totally correct in your deductions, I’ve seen my peers from the East bumfuck western mass freak over the dumbest shit in the cities, and I tell them how ridiculous they’re being. I love me a diverse city though, I need it alllll
I've only recently begun to have the New England and Massachusetts subs suggested to me and I have to say, the posts shitting on all of these cities is really off putting.
I grew up in Western MA and spent tons of time in Holyoke (dad lives there) and Springfield (Falcons/T-birds games, various restaurants). While both cities have their rough areas, they also both have a lot to love and I'm not scared walking through them as many people seem to be.
I went to college in RI, fell in love with Providence, worked in Fall River. The same thing was true, I found places I love in both.
I now am in Eastern MA because it's where I found a job. I live in Lowell now and people are SO dramatic about it. It's a college city with many cute places to shop and eat (Mill No 5 shootout!), and a nice walk along the river. I work in Lawrence and it definitely has its charm too. The Hispanic festival I stumbled into last summer was amazing. There's also plenty of great restaurants and every person I've met that lives there has been very kind.
Even Worcester, I'm there all the time because it's the mid point now between my mom and me. There are so many great breweries, restaurants, Green Hill park is great.
This got really long but I genuinely enjoy spending time in many of these cities and peoples' perceptions of them really annoy me because they clearly have never been there or went once, saw some POC hanging out in a group, and decided it was gang ridden. My only complaint about most of these places is the driving but then again, it is New England lol.
I grew up in a small beach town in RI (Westerly) and I never heard anything bad about most of these places listed but New Haven. I don’t know why, but New Haven just has “that rep”.
Then I met my partner who went to Yale who casually tells me he got shot right on the edge of Yale’s campus (grazed arm) walking back to his dorm after meeting up with friends right off campus where all the science grad students live but New Haven is fine, not dangerous. That people have stolen his bike if he didn’t lock it *indoors*.
A little bit flabbergasting for me, having lived in Dorchester (circa 2014-15) after graduating undergrad in Boston and never had issues with theft or anything, just potholes from the city refusing to do work in the less affluent parts of the city.
The impression I have of New Haven is that there’s a lot of petty theft.
Yeah it's commonly referred to as the "bubble" or "townies/cronies"; our version of "rednecks", because if we're blatantly honest, that's exactly what the behavior is. The people whose lives are sort of spoiled for comfort for the most part and who have never really left or interacted outside their own little circles. Every place has them the thing with NE is that we have a bad tendency to almost take pride in displaying those tendencies as if to get a feel of pride or superiority when it's really just a disgusting quality. No one likes those people, but we have too many of them that they don't have self-awareness. We also have a culture of "live and let live," but what they really mean is not smelling our own bullshit snobbery.
It's really punching down to downplay a culture of social climbing and humblebragging. The people that do that think it makes them better or more successful when it's really displaying an ungrateful quality and massive ignorance. The right way to deal with such people is to immediately cut them off by walking away. Don't give them an audience. Just pretend they don't exist, you're the one better off being relieved of such sordid classless people who need to bash places full of people living more humane lives to feel any bit of of humanity themselves. Life has a way of bringing us all back to the ground eventually.
"Majority-minority" is such a hilarious phrase.
People certainly shouldnt write off a city because of negative stereotypes, it certainly speaks to their character.
There are redeeming places everywhere, and conversley, bad things happen in "good" cities/neighborhoods.
With that in mind, there is the reality that lower economic areas have higher crimes, homelessness, bad education, etc. And its related to socioeconomic realities, not ethnic background. People can reasonably assume if they want to avoid trouble they should avoid these areas. People also dont want to be surrounded by trashy looking places. Holyoke, New Haven, and Worcester are visibly dirty across entire sections. As a former worcester resident I can confirm. All 3 are still worth visiting and have plenty of good spots and people, but it doesnt change the fact its unpleasant to look at certain areas.
All the places you listed have plenty of redeeming qualities, places, and people. They should be visited more and for the most part, there are plenty of movements and people who are changing these places for the better.
Well, in Springfield/Holyoke/Chicopee there are people getting shot dead on the street every week or so. I grew up in Springfield. I live next to Springfield. I worked there for 40 years. It can get rough. Visiting the highlights of Springfield would take a day. They get pointed out often around here. There have been references to the PR festivals/restaurants or the summer festivals throughout the neighborhoods.
I think you want to make folks out to be racists when they aren’t.
The difference between Worcester and Springfield crime wise is very interesting. For example, Worcester had 6 homicides in all of 2023 while Springfield recorded 31. Worcester has 60-70k more people.
Also for comparison, Boston had 35 homicides.
There are many other crime metrics to use to compare these cities but it does illustrate how much of an outlier Springfield is in New England.
Springfield is at the crossroads of North-South and East-West interstates. Drugs coming from the south pass through Springfield. Drugs going to or coming from upstate NY or VT come through Springfield.
That causes a lot of gang related stuff to happen. If you are not involved with a gang or crossing a street, then Springfield can be a relatively safe city.
Two days. Really, the museums are great, and there’s the armory! (I recently visited Springfield as a tourist.)
I don’t know if you’re a reader at all, but there was a great book that came out last year called The Ruin of All Witches about the 1651 witchhunt in Springfield. (Salem gets all the press, right?) The book was fantastic, and my mom grew up in Springfield and knew where all the events took place, so that added an extra element for her.
All cities that suffered greatly from deindustrialization, white flight, and suburbanization.
The suburbanites & townies still like to sensationalize these cities after their “pop-pop” moved away from them in the 50s.
Another thing is, let’s be clear, these cities don’t fit cleanly into the “white” colonial & americana aesthetic that New England is often known for.
I love these cities, there layout, hidden architecture, and walkability. They sometimes have more in common with the Rust Belt cities in Upstate NY, PA, & the Midwest than what is stereotypically ‘New England’. The only places where real people and realness still seems to exists imo.
Yeah, the other day I heard it referred to as "casual new england racism" I think that sums it up. I have friends who think they are as progressive as it gets but casually say racist stuff about "rough areas" all the time. They're not even aware they are doing it. I didn't even pick up on it myself until I left New England. There may be a lot of liberal policies but the culture hasn't kept up.
Quite honestly I can’t get behind a cold, mayonnaise lobster roll. They’re dubious at best and I’ve tried actual good ones and something about them doesn’t agree w my soul.
I’ve never had one of the CT style ones but honestly I’m on their side. Butter and HOT lobster just go together.
Having grown up in Bridgeport, I definitely don't think this is a POC thing and more just trying to put your best foot forward. When you have guests over your house, you're going to make sure your house is clean and not show them a broken window or the hole roaches crawl out of. Same when recommending a town in New England.
I'm not going to recommend a tourist visit Bridgeport, because they're going to get robbed. I'm going to recommend they visit Middletown or Mystic.
And sure, maybe you go to Bridgeport for the parade, or New Haven for the pizza or the Yale space, and it's fun and great, and then you leave, because again, recommending someone visit a place that is not safe is not necessarily helpful.
It’s more of a classism thing than anything. I take your point though on cleanliness. On crime though lbr— even our “dangerous areas” don’t typically have much random crime. I’d only really warn ppl abt New Haven so they could guard their catalytic converter
During the pandemic when we weren’t allowed out of the state, me and my pod explored Mass. There are some amazing overlooked places.
Some of the trash talking may be by people who want places to stay affordable and/or uncrowded. It’s basically futile.
From the Hartford area. There's so many places in Connecticut that get slept on because it's Connecticut. Hartford has a huge Jamaican population, it and New Haven have lots of Puerto Ricans and in both cases they contribute heavily to the city's culture and energy.
Bridgeport is well, Bridgeport. Unfortunately it's reputation is still somewhat deserved.
Stamford and Fairfield have a larger presence than they deserve. Probably just because they're the places New Yorkers go to. But there's much more unique about Hartford and New Haven than Stamford and Fairfield.
What? Are you just trying to stir up shit to make a flaccid point?
How much are people saying about Torrington? And that’s 93% white. Compare that to New Haven
My entire life no one talks about Lawrence. Not when it was all white and certainly not now that it isn’t.
Look, it’s not about race it’s about interest. There are a shit ton of small, quiet, unremarkable towns and cities in New England (same as everywhere else) and a small few that aren’t and that’s where you find areas of interest.
If the people you want to hear from aren’t taking about places you care about maybe it’s time for you to make a move.
You're saying what the rest of us have been saying for years. It's so strange. Reminds me of those horror movies where the towns lock each other under a dome, thinking the exposed towns are the bad ones when really they're living hell inside those things. Their whole lives are just the same bubble wrap thing for generations. It can feel like you're talking to spoiled zombies that are all to proud of living that bubble wrap as if they're the most interesting people in the world. They say they travel to places, but just tour to hotels don't actually integrate wherever they go and actually learn about where they're at. Everything is so careful. The most random fears. The rest of the country and the world are hellscape. You don't know whether to genuinely feel bad or stare at a random pothole in the ground that's got more texture than whatever these brains have sometimes. It can feel too "Stepford Wives".
I grew up in the wealthier towns. My parents left them after growing sick of the "bubbling". They favored NYC but were given a competitive contract to work at a hospital here (one's a doctor, another a surgeon). My father is from Barcelona, my mom Latin American. They moved here because we vacationed here during the autumn in the late 2000s. We all loved the leaves and despite my dad saying he loathed the "too much too "townie" thing as he and the friends he visited stated, us kids were spoiled brats: We wanted leaves, we got leaves. When I tell you my dad's Spaniard thought this place was too "Stepford Wives" he meant it. I remember I went to his practice to bring up snacks I made when he made the most epic eye roll at hearing an elderly couple bemoan about an specific milltown "out of nowhere" (likely triggered because the MA taking their vitals was Hispanic). The whole point was to make the girl feel bad and my dad cleared his throat to cut it out. That tendency was one of the big reasons he felt "digusted" to be here and like this was not where we wanted to be. He'd say if all these amenities resulted in that level of ignorance he wanted out. He said he couldn't believe half the things he'd hear because, yes, he's White. He said the small towns in the South felt less provincial even so the NE thing tendency to slam the milltowns as if to elevate oneself near the betters is somethingamy consider asinine and ridiculous. After a few years, the parents finally had it and moved to one of the "milltowns." To their surprise, they weren't the only people of their sort in these places and living in them for the same reason. It is a reality that some places will run more provincial than others. My dad thought MA would be more "wordly" and above such things because of the educated branding. He calls people like that "the bubble wrap people" for the sensation they inspire. They make you jump a little, and then you want to pop them. 🤣 Whenever one of us would meet one, he said it would be relaxing to grab a roll of bubble wrap and twist with passion. Then quickly remove yourself and pretend they don't exist in the sane way they treat the world. His hack has been surprisingly therapeutic.
He said the behavior is a choice, it's not from innocence is out of perceived superiority or the need to feel that way. They're aware they do it and that the trigger is uncomfortable, but their need for superiority is shameless. Every group and country has it, locals certainly like the to skirt behind that particular comfort: but he thought New England's particularly annoying because of the tendency to emphasize that "educated" branding doing a lot of work to sell the area by downplaying the undesirable "quirk". To deal with it, he'd say to express said annoyance and treat them exactly as they do or laugh at them for openly admitting how feeble minded they are. Dad's one of those men that is petty. He's never had and has no patience for the bullshit as he calls it.
If you only read this sub, you'd be forgiven for thinking the only cities in New England were Boston, Providence, Portland, and Burlington.
It’s the massachusetts sub too that does this. I think a lot of it is people who live in the 495 suburban bubble. A lot of them/their parents white-flighted out of the inner cities and since then have maintained a certain attitude. Irl it just gets grating. Edit: it’s not just inside 495. They exist in WMass/CT/elsewhere too.
As someone who lives in Central Massachusetts (almost Western if you go by how close I am to Franklin County) I feel this. People will drive to northern NH and Vermont and carry on how beautiful it is should check out the rest of their own state. Or make fun of the towns in Central Massachusetts and Western Massachusetts. I lived in Boston for many years and love the city but it is not the end all. It irks me.
Route 2 alone is beautiful but they’d never know it
And that keeps us nice for the rest of us. The two times a year people remember route 2 are hellish. Leaf and sugar season ugh
It really is.
I once argued with someone who said that Leominster is basically the middle of nowhere. I very calmly stated that the twin city area had about 100,000 residents and is 20 minutes from Worcester and 50 minutes from Boston. Got downvoted to hell.
Grew up in the 495 belt and you nailed it. I went to rural Maine for college and have been all over New England now. Western MA, Northern CT, and Northern MA border by NH have great "rural" areas to hang out.
I'm in the 84/90 corridor, and you're absolutely right. I often joke that everyone forgets there's life on this side of 495, especially with the way our state is run, but it's sadly true.
Ah yes- good ole Bostonians hating on central mass, even though they get their drinking water from the Quabbin Reservoir…exploitation for the win.
They should all have to walk the old roads around the quabbin to see what was given up. It is a beautiful area but lots was lost
My username comes from a joke 30 years ago about the Frebbin, defender of the Quabbin
Uh, a lot of people who didn't grow up in the bubbles/invisible dome have been saying that for years. They also have a very naive assumption everyone living in those towns/cities are broke or don't come from wealthy families that have deliberately chosen to not live in the bubbles out of seeing them as like being inside a fishbowl. When I was a kid I thought being "educated" or emphasizing it meant that it would be a wordly lot not so...provincial. We make fun of country bumpkins and hillbillies but somehow ignore the townies are the same and possibly worse.
Yeah, I mean I live in Cambridge, so not exactly voting with my feet here, but I grew up in Upstate NY, so I have a certain chip on my shoulder about places that don't fall within the major metro of a region being written off entirely.
Upstate NY is so disrespected that it all gets lumped in as “Upstate” even though it’s…the majority of the state and has several distinct regions It’s weird
I went to Cornell and was originally from a different part of the country. Someone said they were going to "the city" one weekend early in freshman year. I asked if they meant Syracuse or Rochester...
As a person who lives in upstate ny anywhere outside of a major city sucks. Don’t come here. Stay where you are 😂
Yes! It's basically the Boston suburbs that defines New England, not even folks from City of Boston proper. Can get a bit provincial in the 495 suburban bubble for a part of the region that's so educated and affluent, hence some of their ignorance about Connecticut and other places in New England.
Provincial is such a great word to describe New England in general.
Grew up on CT. Lived in Hartford for a few years. It definitely is grating, especially when you really love the place and people just shit on it with no actual experience. I was a suburb kid too so I got both sides.
To be fair Hartford is pretty shitty
Hartford has its rough spots, but there are some great spots like Pratt Street, The convention center area with UConn Hartford. And the riverfront it’s not all bad
I’ve spent tons of time in Hartford, all the places you mentioned are mediocre at best. I’d rather spend time in new London 🤢
I’ll take mediocre
What’s sad is Hartford was heavily bulldozed for cars with big highways to suburbs. Hartford could be such a great city, but it’s held back by horrific “urban renewal” from the mid 20th century. On that note, imagine how cool and exciting Springfield’s Connecticut River waterfront would be if it weren’t for I-91? Southern New England’s Connecticut river metropolises were dealt a huge blow by urban highways.
Well it's also a numbers game right? The vast majority of people in MA live close to Boston. So they're going to seem over-represented attitudinally in subs like this.
I grew up in Brockton and now live in the 495 belt. I've seen needles on the playground, and I went to school with a guy who went to jail for being in a drive by shooting. I could ride my bike only 2 blocks in 1 direction before I could run into people selling drugs or sex. I've earned the right to sh*t on Brockton as much as I want. Just because someone is down on a city, it doesn't mean that they are wrong. And, FYI, I still go back on occasion for Italian Kitchen and Cape Cod Cafe.
I feel that but at the same time it’s like when someone shits on your brother. Like hey- *I* can do that
I was born in Brockton. The place is a fucking shithole. Has nothing to do with the skin color of the people who live there.
It’s not so much skin color as general elitism
Don't forget Portsmouth and Newport.
Fairfield County here. We get approximately 3/100 positive mentions on this thread. Pisses me off, tbh. There’s good and bad like every area, but I grew up here and am fiercely proud of my land.
We don't believe Connecticut exists other than as license plates for bad drivers.
Meanwhile, Portland is the TWENTY-NINTH largest city in New England!! (according to [Wikipedia ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_New_England_by_population))
(Biased) I would still say it’s the best NE city, though. The Old Port has a better and more fun bar scene than Boston and it’s far more walkable and less expensive. Much better water views too
Honestly, I feel like downtown Portland had become one big tourist trap. I live about an hour away and used to go in a lot. There is a jaded feeling to many of the waitstaff (I get it I waitressed in Ogunquit!), service industry folks are so stretched with the housing situation. It feels like all of the patrons read about Portland on yelp and ate taking photos of their food and selfies for Instagram.
If I remember correctly Framingham is bigger. Blew my mind.
Actually there are only 2 cities in New England, Boston and Hartford.
Portland?
I feel like both New Haven and Providence get some love from a lot of people.
It’s funny. Every NYer I know loves Providence, takes yearly trips on the train to visit. Loves the vibe, respects the city culture etc. But basically half of the people I know in the Boston area make fun of me for living here, they haven’t been in 15 years but swear it’s a shithole. I always assume it’s this weird entitlement mixed with a sense of insecurity that New England’s second city is better than Boston in a lot of ways.
Providence is way better than Boston in many ways. The main reason is the vibe and the second is the people.
I’m from the Hartford area, I love Providence but also get frustrated because Hartford is a similar type city just executed poorly. The state really needs to redo the highways or it’ll stay this way
As a New Englander that has lived in NYC for many many years, I 1000% co-sign this.
Yeah I was thinking this. Those two are middle tier at least. Hartford is another story, I grew up near Hartford and even though New Haven is a half hour drive it’s so different and much more vibrant
Yeah I’ve heard lots of people refer to providence as ghetto and similar to Hartford and Worcester there are nice areas in both just like anywhere, but again like anywhere else it’s a city and it’s bound to have bad areas that’s just how it goes
I've always been very glad that I've been able to explore a lot of New England without even needing a car! Providence, Lowell, Worcester, Salem (commuter rail), Springfield and Northampton, Portland (by bus). I've tried to visit as much of NE as I can.
"There's a lot to like about Lowell"
Yeah, there some nice waterways… a YMCA… uhh… the Quilt Museum? And… oh, the old Cotton Mill. Yeah, Lowell’s a real hoot.
Mill No 5 is an indoor mall with some really cool shops a cafe and an indie movie theatre. https://millno5.com/
Decent public transportation and plenty of interesting places in close proximity is part of what makes New England great
Worcester used to be pretty much a dump (I lived nearby in the 1970s). Last few times I visited, it seemed nice a nice small city. Nice restaurants and bars, some classy, some dive-y. Interesting music venues. New minor league ball field. And so on.
There are a lot of sheltered suburban folk in the surrounding communities that have a really bad view of Worcester and especially Main South. It’s not bad at all and for a city of its size, the “hood” is pretty normal. Definitely some sketchy activity but nothing really too bizarre. There is a small gangbanger element in Worcester but it’s not like they are out committing random acts of violence against strangers.
Having lived in Boston, Providence and Worcester, there is not a single part of Worcester that I wouldn’t feel comfortable walking around. There were a couple of streets in Boston that I avoided. And the only really scary situation I have ever run into was in Providence back in the 90’s.
Worcester is really kicking it right now. Hope the trend continues. Would be awesome to have another fun small city to visit in the neighborhood for years to come. Providence is getting played out haha.
Kicking it, as in, kicking all the current residents out with rent increases as more people from Boston keep moving here for the lower cost of living (can’t blame them but still)
I used to work in Lawrence, which at the time was last in per capita income of all Mass cities/towns. That city has its struggles, but it’s a far cry from what would be considered dangerous or economically moribund in other regions of the USA. There are cities that have homicide rates multiples higher than anything in Mass, and economic blight to the point of entire blocks and neighborhoods abandoned.
As new englanders, we're kinda fucking spoiled- even our "shit holes" are the classiest in the country 😂
Fair point
The rap Lawrence gets is insane! Spend 5 minutes on any site/forum and you would think it was some crazy dangerous city rather than a working-class immigrant community (as it has ALWAYS been!)
It might be partly boomers and long memories, because some of those places used to have far more crime than they do now. Some of them have really been revitalized by immigrant communities in the more recent past, after just being miserably depressed former milltowns— it can be hard to get out from under that reputation. Lowell is a great example, it’s not the city it was 30 years ago, and a lot of that credit goes to its immigrant community. Others actually do have crime problems, and it depends on where you’re coming from. The fact is that New Haven at night, especially if you don’t know the neighborhoods, is going to be trickier to wander around safely than Burlington or Salem. There is random crime in New Haven. There’s random crime in Springfield. They are not Baltimore or Detroit, but they are both cities where it’s not a bad idea to know where you are and where you’re going, especially at night (true of some Boston neighborhoods as well of course)!
“Random crime in Springfield”- there’s really not. There’s crime but only the typical crime you’d associate w poverty. Never been in a spot of bother my whole life even in “dangerous” areas at night. Only way you’ll be caught up in something is if you’re already involved w some mess.
Well I wouldn’t walk Eastern Ave at night that’s for sure. That stretch from State street to Hickory street is pretty much where all the action happens. The rest of the city is pretty much like every where else. Be aware of your surroundings and don’t go looking for trouble.
I'm from Hartford, CT. This has been the attitude to my home city my entire life. Last week a prep school teacher with whom I work--and actually like--called Hartford "a toilet" even after I told him I was from there.
Grew up in Wethersfield still live in the area, I feel for Hartford. They’ve made some mistakes but the highway wasn’t their fault and probably caused most of the issues that we see today. But things are on the up and up with the yard goats, new apartments and restaurants. It’ll take some time but I love the riverfront and going their for festivals
I appreciate this, but I think part of the problem candidly is that Wethersfield, for example, borders Hartford but the New England culture of autonomous towns makes many people from place like Wethersfield feel like Hartford isn't a concern of theirs or that they aren't contributing to the issues. The state of Hartford is a regional problem being blamed on the city itself.
I think of Hartford as a regional issue. But I think slowly but surely other towns are realizing helping Hartford helps the region overall
Highways messed with Springfield as well. Their placement wasn’t an accident either…
If the highway went where it was originally planned Springfield could have really developed the real estate along the river. Instead the leaders in Springfield at the time felt that if the highway didn’t run through Springfield the downtown would suffer. Kind of prophetic that by putting it there they pretty much killed their downtown for decades.
Also the fact that Hartford never unified. So Hartford proper lost access to a lot of resources and has a ton of tax-exempt properties
They always do it right after like you’re gonna agree with them— and then they double down
OK Computer highway!!!!
As a native of the toilet of New Britain, Hartford is more of one of those troth urinals at old stadiums.
I think it’s really more classism than racism. For example, Lowell MA and Burlington MA were both regarded as having a (relatively) large Asian population when I was growing up. Lowell is stereotyped as shoddy, whereas Burlington is stereotyped as fancy. The difference being wealth. Growing up I also heard Revere lumped in with those cities - which was majority white, lower income (at that time), and supposedly had high drug use.
I feel like classism is more precise, you’re right. Overall it’s generally “not nice” behavior
also in Lowell it’s Khmer people who a lot of other Asian communities unfortunately look down on. source: friends with Khmer people who talk about this shit every so often
I grew up in the Hartford area, it’s definitely an underrated city and absolutely full of the best damn takeout
I’ve driven through all of Hartford and rarely feel unsafe, like people mind their own business. But I go to a much “safer” city like Middletown and a bunch of homeless people are catcalling my gf. Idk I think Hartford gets an unfair rep at times
people just think it’s unsafe because it’s majority black/latino i guarantee
Have you tried the roast beef?
Oh yeah, as a Worcester resident I feel this lol.
Paris of the millennium.
Hot take: Worcester was absolutely destroyed by highways. It has no downtown. It is just a collection of random roads and businesses. It's a city for New Englanders that hate New England cities and want car-based sprawl.
Lewiston, ME
Absolutely. This happens with New Bedford. Really great city and people act like it’s terrible. I’ve had some friends visit from the Cape, literally shocked that the coastal area and downtown are as scenic as they are. “Well you know, you hear all the terrible things about New Bedford…”. Another friend of mine from Orange County has visited numerous times and is obsessed. Yes, there IS crime here. And just like in most cities with a sizable population if you are not involved in gangs, drugs, or other high-risk activities it is unlikely that crime will find you. I’ve lived in a few different places and traveled extensively throughout most of the US. And I still think this little city in the armpit of MA is a very special place. We have beautiful coastal areas and parks, vibrant cultural communities with the cool things that accompany them, and the gorgeous Southcoast woodsy/farm towns are a quick drive away.
The first time I went to New Bedford I was shook. I went for work and frankly I was a little excited bc I figure there’d be some sea related history. I’d also heard that that it was on the same wave as Worcester. I was very pleasantly surprised by what I found there. Nice people and nice cafes etc. Yeah it was a little ‘rough’ but thats just a byproduct of having old industrial buildings and relative poverty. And I have explained that ‘city=some crime duh’ so many times but idk ppl cant grasp it
Yeah the “rough” parts are just humanity. I don’t know. It kind of pisses me off when people are so judgemental like that. (Not you, I mean this is the whole point of your post). You dig deeper, and there’s such nasty attitudes towards places that are largely solid working class populations with some poverty. When I lived in Southern California I was in a relationship for a while with the black sheep son of a Real Housewives neighbor. Like, this lady decided at the last minute that she didn’t want to do the show but she was in their friend group. That was a wild year for me, being thrown into that world after having grown up in NB. Anyways, those fancy-ass people all have their own complicated issues, their own drug or alcohol problems, their own baggage. But because they can dress it up real pretty they think they’re better than the “types” of people in “rough” cities. It’s the same shit, just wrapped in a pretty bow. I’m not saying everyone in New Bedford is amazing, but there are plenty of solid people who genuinely care a lot about the welfare of our community and its people. We’re real people, with all the beauty and struggles that accompany that. Humanity.
I feel the same way about Fall River! People shit on Fall River all the time, and it has a bad rap that’s totally unwarranted. There are sketchy parts… and beautiful parts, and a huge middle class that’s so diverse! It’s a really great city.
I was born in Rutland Vt and currently live in Barre. Both cities get crap all the time from Vermonters and others. I love Barre. Sure it has its problems, but the only way change is going to happen is if people who care move there. And it’s a beautiful city! The granite statues are incredible and the architecture is world class.
Downtown Rutland is fairly attractive around Wales Street and Merchants Row. The Paramount Theater is a gem. Restaurants come and go. I was sorry to see Table 24 close last summer. It has the usual poverty and drug problems but it’s not a bad place.
"City" is a very loose term here... but yes, very nice
Most People in VT/NH will call anywhere with a population over 15k a shithole / ghetto. My inlaws call Nahua NH Nash-ganistan and Manchester NH Manch-ganistan.
Everybody knows it’s ManchVegas. Also your in-laws sound like the type of people this post is about, on the more explicitly racist front
[удалено]
I literally JUST drove through there the other day. What’s there to even shit on?
We have a lot of poverty, and a reputation for drugs. But the day to day folks who live here never get mentioned. Our local bike shop donated 100 new bicycles that lost their warranties in the flood to Pedals for Progress, which sends bikes to third world countries. Our local LGBTQ + community center worked tirelessly during the flood last year to get resources to citizens, but none of this stuff ever gets publicity. We aren’t the “Vermont” people think of, we are working class people, not Stowe or Burlington. So we get made fun of.
Someone's Uncle Tom saw a homeless guy behind the rent-a-center and now it's the worst city ever
Absolutely RIFE w crime then I guess
When I went to college we called it "Scary Barre"
I like Rutland
There are other cities in New England? -Boston
🫨
Be sure to order the “Fishermen’s Platter” to get a sample of the seafood!
New Haven is a sweet little city on many levels.
Agreed
Yup if you’re in Massachusetts and you’re west of Worcester you pretty much don’t exist. Even our state capital acts like we don’t exist. Which is why our cities have such bad urban decay. Boston takes our state taxes but we get nothing in return. Our highways are falling apart. Our schools are failing. And as far as POC, many cities in western Mass, like Holyoke, Chicopee, and Springfield, have large communities of many ethnicities. The Latino and Asian communities are quite large here. If my children’s class photos are any indication, I would even say that Latinos are the majority here in Springfield. We aren’t just a bunch of white redneck mountain hillbillies here. We have diverse communities with great music and food and art and museums. I think the fact that we also don’t have the ‘typical’ Massachusetts/Boston accent throws people off. Everyone assumes we all talk like that in this state. And when they talk to us and we sound totally different we aren’t seen as true Massholes.
Not to say Western Mass isn’t forgotten about on beacon Hill. But Western Mass communities actually get more state money coming back than they put in. But there’s still money that could be spent out here to make everyone’s lives easier. Western Mass folks fund the MBTA but really don’t benefit from it. Maybe the state should help Springfield implement a mass transit system outside of the PVTA. Springfield, West Springfield, Chicopee, Holyoke, Ludlow, East Longmeadow, Longmeadow and Westfield could benefit from either an expanded PVTA or another form of mass transit.
>Springfield, West Springfield, Chicopee, Holyoke, Ludlow, East Longmeadow, Longmeadow and Westfield could benefit from either an expanded PVTA or another form of mass transit. they should connect to Northampton and to Greenfield beyond as well. There's no good reason we can't get from one end of the Pioneer Valley to the other to do business, visit family, work, enjoy recreation... It's 45 minutes up 91, not a trip to the moon.
I figure there are certain people in certain towns who don’t want that. Who you ask? The ones who feel confident enough to get up in a televised council meeting and tell us to “Keep our dirty money in Springfield.”
They def think its just white hillbillies out here which is weird bc even in the hilltowns theyre in the minority. I’d say our population of Latinos outweighs black folk now and idk if they’d even know. Tbh I think theyd write it off as “ethnics are over there- don’t go. Danger!” (satire) They have a very myopic view of the state
Sometimes I think the 413 should just split off and form its own state. West Massachusetts with Springfield as its capital. We could keep our state taxes here instead of them all going to fund Boston’s upkeep. Then maybe I wouldn’t have to drive the pothole obstacles course every day on my way to work. At least once a year I have to do some sort of repair to my car from falling into a pothole the size of a swimming pool.
I’d say so, but then the Northampton/Amherst crew would somehow find a way to put themselves at the head of everything like always
Lmao have you driven in boston? Because the money isn't going to the roads there either
Idk… people hate on Fall River all the time and it is pretty damn white.
Can confirm. Boston proper and the people inside 128 just love to take the city's tax revenues but have no interest in the city beyond that. What's truly insane is the holier than Thou attitudes of the people within 128 towards people from SE Massachusetts - whether Fall River. New Bedford or Taunton Sure, each city has crime. But after working in a Boston hospital, I can tell you that none of the towns within 128 are peaceful utopias either. These people walk around with their noses in the air and you wanna just grab a newspaper, roll it up and smack it, tell them to put their nose down because at the end of the dsy they're no better......but you don't because they'd freak.
More of a class thing, I will say. I wrote this on the fly.
Hey! Finally some appreciation for Brockton! Do you love fighting and Italian food (and Caribbean! ). Brockton is your spot! All kidding aside I love Brockton food and cape cod cafe pizza is the gold standard. Watch out for the Caribbean food. It is deceptively spicy.
Don't forget the hellhole that is Lynn! It definitely does not have a beautiful shoreline.
Lynn, Lynn, city of sin, you don't come out the way you went in...
That stupid rhyme is what keeps the city (relatively) affordable.
I was rushed to Lynn Hospital after I broke my arm and the ambulance almost got run off the road just over the GE bridge, by the bowling alley. We almost flipped and the lady and her kids just kept going.
Speak for yourself, my apartment there went from $1700 to $2k and I had to move to Malden
That's why I said relatively, as in relative to Metro Boston. That sucks, I'm sorry. I am surprised that Malden, on the Orange Line, is more affordable than Lynn right now.
I kinda wanna go to Lynn. I saw a vid made by WBZ that highlighted the people there and they seemed lovely icl
I'm from the deep south and despised Boston and Portsmouth ... .... and loved New Bedford. Go figure. The people actually seemed real and could talk about something other than their possessions.
My dad's from Barcelona and Mom's from Latin America, but they're both doctors. Both of them prefer the "milltowns" over what they call the "bubble wrap world" (the small towns). They're both big city people though and think the countryside where there's not much interaction with your neighbors plus no range of restaurants is their nightmare. They like the particular towns for the same reasons you said, they felt the people are more normal and grounded than too many of the yuppies masquerading as blue collar workers here.
It’s so bad and very telling. Honestly, it doesn’t bother me as much. I see a lot of the suburbs and NIMBY towns as boring, pearl-clutching, and lacking culture anyway so maybe I’m not much better 🤷🏾♂️
the worst part is this isn’t even that wrong of a take. Add expensive to that list as well.
Native of Lewiston Maine here. Yup, in people’s minds it might as well not exist. It’s Portland, Bangor, Portland, Augusta, oh did I mention Portland?
Honestly as a Boston resident my image of Maine isn’t even the cities…it’s Acadia and the surrounding area around it. Acadia is *chefs kiss*
[удалено]
Go Bates!(?)
Taunton, Fall River and New Bedford. There’s so many good places to eat especially the Portuguese food and alot of history to explore. Many people don’t realize how important that area of the state was from the colonial period all the way through ww2. Plus despite being urban areas none of these cities are very far from nature or the little idilc towns.
Nah and that history alone is so so cool
That’s because people gravitate toward modern, sanitized, gentrified cities full of luxury lofts, expensive dogs, bicycles, tech bros and gals, tattoos, craft breweries, healthy bakeries, live music, a gay district, and maybe an ocean or a mountain. This is now mainstream. Here in New England we have a whole bunch of very old, working class, forgotten, gritty around the edges cities full of character, charm, and ethnic diversity. Some of them remain as they’ve always been, while others get noticed and blow up (Worcester, Lowell, etc.) I actually like the gritty ones. There’s just something nice about it. Locals are way nicer than you’d expect. Fitchburg, Fall River, New Bedford, Lawrence, Manchester, NH, etc. all have lots to offer and great communities. But can definitely feel super sketchy in parts.
Been living in Holyoke for almost a decade now and haven't witnessed a single violent crime. The dude who stole a whole turkey from Sav-A-Lot was pretty funny, but hardly felt like my life was in danger. Not going to pretend there aren't problems, but to hear some people tell it you'd think this is a warzone.
In Massachusetts, the concentration of power in Boston is a significant problem that is harmful to the rest of the state. The largest city also is the state capital. All the money goes to Boston and Boston metro and the rest of the state is flyover country that gets crumbs. This will never change. And as resources become more constrained, it’s likely to get worse. The Pike will never be wide enough. Commuter rail will never get better so why not make Worcester, Springfield, etc. more appealing to big and small businesses, create more affordable housing in those flyover cities, open up the zoning and planning playbook to encourage smart-development, create a positive cycle of livability.
I almost had my puppy stolen by a random drugged out guy in Hartford, every suburb of Hartford is safer and more fun. Can’t speak much on the other cities but yeah.
Grew up just south of Hartford, I think we all have a similar story about Hartford
Lol even I do
Hartford is a crappy city, it’s not lived in like a proper city. New Haven is way better for CT! And I know people live in Hartford, just that they have such a big wealth divide, and their downtown feels dead because no one lives there
It’s just the nature of the businesses too, Hartford is insurance and 9-5 jobs and no one stays they go back to the suburbs. New Haven has Yale/pharma jobs and people are much more inclined to stick around at night
People also actually live in downtown New Haven, relatively barely anyone lives in downtown Hartford. New Haven actually has one of the most even distributions of populations across it’s area of any city it’s size
I have a coworker from a tiny rural New Haven county town and her parents moved to New Haven for retirement. The exact demographic of people you’d think would be wagging their fingers and complaining about crime from their 3000 sq ft homes now seeing how great New Haven is. Really hope CT and New Haven realize the promise of the city and invest in it properly.
Springfield has its problems, but it’s also an amazing city full of potential and amazing history. But it also has a major self esteem problem. The people that shit on Springfield the most seem to be people from Springfield.
THE SELF ESTEEM ISSUE Omg I’ve never heard anyone else say that. That’s the heart of the issue in my opinion and that’s especially sad. It’s like people shit on you so much you start believing it. You can’t build of you have no pride in yourself. There are some who do, but theyre unlikely to be supported.
Having lived in and traveled to other parts of the country, it always feels like we're more critical of and competitive with other cities in New England. I think that hurts us as people love to knock the next city over. I think we also have a weird competition from having so many mid size cities so close to each other. Springfield, Worcester, Hartford, Providence, New Haven, and Bridgeport.
Providence, New Haven and Worcester get some love on this sub
Dude the amount of people in western mass, all older white people mind you, who are TERRIFIED of Holyoke MA is insane. These idiots are scared to death and back of going to Target at the damn mall
Also, just putting it out there because where the hell else am I going to? I briefly worked for the Chicopee DPW/water department, in the office, and let me tell you I have NEVER worked around a more racist, classist, AND ageist (which doesn't make sense cause like, how are you gonna treat the elderly like trash when you're pushing 60 yourself?) group of people in my life. The kinds of people who make fun of people trying to pay their (totally overpriced and often completely unfair) water bills the moment their out of earshot.
That’s wild and to think that their whole job is to make sure the public is served as well. I think that attitudes pervasive in many jobs where you have “power” over people and you aren’t likely to get fired/likely got the job because you knew someone there
[удалено]
It’s hilarious. They really think Holyoke is like whatever fictive version of Chicago that Fox News has painted for them
Being from a Berkshire hilltown and having previously lived on the South Side of Chicago for six years, I can tell you that neither Chicago or Holyoke are as bad as the fearmongers make them out to be. I had a great time in Chitown, and I love going to shows at Race Street Live.
I wonder how many people in this sub actually spent any time in places like Springfield Mass?
Very few. Even less beyond Main St.
Hey you leave Billerica alone!
Lowell forever baby.
I think its because New England is romanticized for its charm and idyllic nature. Cities like the ones you mentioned definitely go against that generalization and are in pretty bad urban decay. With that being said youre absolutely right they still play a vital role in making New England what it is. I'm from New Haven county and I love that city DEARLY.
yes. interesting AF. I thought popularity contests and hierarchical standards were autophagic by nature, with the end of high school signifying their ceremonial deaths. turns out people are petty AF for their whole lives.
I mean when people think of vibrant New England cities they think of a walkable downtown, narrow streets, food, etc. Cities like Worcester were destroyed by highways. What is the downtown? There is no downtown. It's just a collection of roads and businesses. That's not a real city. I know that technically it's the 2nd biggest city by population but Providence is actually more of a city than Worcester. Worcester just counts a ton more single family homes as part of "the city"
You’re spot on! Worcester is only the 2nd biggest in population because it’s nearly twice the land area as Providence. Providence and Pawtucket are both Much denser than Worcester. If you expanded Providence into surrounding areas to be the same physical size as Worcester it would be a city of 330-350,000. Worcester on the other hand is surrounded by very suburban towns with low density So functionally Providence is really significantly larger than Worcester.
Providence is bigger on the inside
Never had a bad experience in Holyoke or Springfield, honestly they’re chill. I love providence . I make fun of Hartford/new haven/Bridgeport because I was born/raised in those areas lol Love Worcester and miss working there tbh don’t have much experience with Lowell and Lawrence. You could be totally correct in your deductions, I’ve seen my peers from the East bumfuck western mass freak over the dumbest shit in the cities, and I tell them how ridiculous they’re being. I love me a diverse city though, I need it alllll
I've only recently begun to have the New England and Massachusetts subs suggested to me and I have to say, the posts shitting on all of these cities is really off putting. I grew up in Western MA and spent tons of time in Holyoke (dad lives there) and Springfield (Falcons/T-birds games, various restaurants). While both cities have their rough areas, they also both have a lot to love and I'm not scared walking through them as many people seem to be. I went to college in RI, fell in love with Providence, worked in Fall River. The same thing was true, I found places I love in both. I now am in Eastern MA because it's where I found a job. I live in Lowell now and people are SO dramatic about it. It's a college city with many cute places to shop and eat (Mill No 5 shootout!), and a nice walk along the river. I work in Lawrence and it definitely has its charm too. The Hispanic festival I stumbled into last summer was amazing. There's also plenty of great restaurants and every person I've met that lives there has been very kind. Even Worcester, I'm there all the time because it's the mid point now between my mom and me. There are so many great breweries, restaurants, Green Hill park is great. This got really long but I genuinely enjoy spending time in many of these cities and peoples' perceptions of them really annoy me because they clearly have never been there or went once, saw some POC hanging out in a group, and decided it was gang ridden. My only complaint about most of these places is the driving but then again, it is New England lol.
I grew up in a small beach town in RI (Westerly) and I never heard anything bad about most of these places listed but New Haven. I don’t know why, but New Haven just has “that rep”. Then I met my partner who went to Yale who casually tells me he got shot right on the edge of Yale’s campus (grazed arm) walking back to his dorm after meeting up with friends right off campus where all the science grad students live but New Haven is fine, not dangerous. That people have stolen his bike if he didn’t lock it *indoors*. A little bit flabbergasting for me, having lived in Dorchester (circa 2014-15) after graduating undergrad in Boston and never had issues with theft or anything, just potholes from the city refusing to do work in the less affluent parts of the city. The impression I have of New Haven is that there’s a lot of petty theft.
Yeah it's commonly referred to as the "bubble" or "townies/cronies"; our version of "rednecks", because if we're blatantly honest, that's exactly what the behavior is. The people whose lives are sort of spoiled for comfort for the most part and who have never really left or interacted outside their own little circles. Every place has them the thing with NE is that we have a bad tendency to almost take pride in displaying those tendencies as if to get a feel of pride or superiority when it's really just a disgusting quality. No one likes those people, but we have too many of them that they don't have self-awareness. We also have a culture of "live and let live," but what they really mean is not smelling our own bullshit snobbery. It's really punching down to downplay a culture of social climbing and humblebragging. The people that do that think it makes them better or more successful when it's really displaying an ungrateful quality and massive ignorance. The right way to deal with such people is to immediately cut them off by walking away. Don't give them an audience. Just pretend they don't exist, you're the one better off being relieved of such sordid classless people who need to bash places full of people living more humane lives to feel any bit of of humanity themselves. Life has a way of bringing us all back to the ground eventually.
"Majority-minority" is such a hilarious phrase. People certainly shouldnt write off a city because of negative stereotypes, it certainly speaks to their character. There are redeeming places everywhere, and conversley, bad things happen in "good" cities/neighborhoods. With that in mind, there is the reality that lower economic areas have higher crimes, homelessness, bad education, etc. And its related to socioeconomic realities, not ethnic background. People can reasonably assume if they want to avoid trouble they should avoid these areas. People also dont want to be surrounded by trashy looking places. Holyoke, New Haven, and Worcester are visibly dirty across entire sections. As a former worcester resident I can confirm. All 3 are still worth visiting and have plenty of good spots and people, but it doesnt change the fact its unpleasant to look at certain areas. All the places you listed have plenty of redeeming qualities, places, and people. They should be visited more and for the most part, there are plenty of movements and people who are changing these places for the better.
You’d know the redeeming qualities if you left the stank attitude at home and possibly went beyond the highway. Or yknow— tried.
Well, in Springfield/Holyoke/Chicopee there are people getting shot dead on the street every week or so. I grew up in Springfield. I live next to Springfield. I worked there for 40 years. It can get rough. Visiting the highlights of Springfield would take a day. They get pointed out often around here. There have been references to the PR festivals/restaurants or the summer festivals throughout the neighborhoods. I think you want to make folks out to be racists when they aren’t.
The difference between Worcester and Springfield crime wise is very interesting. For example, Worcester had 6 homicides in all of 2023 while Springfield recorded 31. Worcester has 60-70k more people. Also for comparison, Boston had 35 homicides. There are many other crime metrics to use to compare these cities but it does illustrate how much of an outlier Springfield is in New England.
Springfield is at the crossroads of North-South and East-West interstates. Drugs coming from the south pass through Springfield. Drugs going to or coming from upstate NY or VT come through Springfield. That causes a lot of gang related stuff to happen. If you are not involved with a gang or crossing a street, then Springfield can be a relatively safe city.
Two days. Really, the museums are great, and there’s the armory! (I recently visited Springfield as a tourist.) I don’t know if you’re a reader at all, but there was a great book that came out last year called The Ruin of All Witches about the 1651 witchhunt in Springfield. (Salem gets all the press, right?) The book was fantastic, and my mom grew up in Springfield and knew where all the events took place, so that added an extra element for her.
I did not know that. I will have to check it out. In 1651 we were fighting it out with the locals. We needed all the witch help we could get. Ha Ha.
Every week?
Yea my grandparents used to tell the stories all the time…as soon as the POC like Greeks and Italians moved in those went downhill.
All cities that suffered greatly from deindustrialization, white flight, and suburbanization. The suburbanites & townies still like to sensationalize these cities after their “pop-pop” moved away from them in the 50s. Another thing is, let’s be clear, these cities don’t fit cleanly into the “white” colonial & americana aesthetic that New England is often known for. I love these cities, there layout, hidden architecture, and walkability. They sometimes have more in common with the Rust Belt cities in Upstate NY, PA, & the Midwest than what is stereotypically ‘New England’. The only places where real people and realness still seems to exists imo.
Yeah, the other day I heard it referred to as "casual new england racism" I think that sums it up. I have friends who think they are as progressive as it gets but casually say racist stuff about "rough areas" all the time. They're not even aware they are doing it. I didn't even pick up on it myself until I left New England. There may be a lot of liberal policies but the culture hasn't kept up.
Downvotes but no response. Stay in denial. There's a reason Boston has the reputation it does.
Ty the Owl Diner in Lowell
Arkham is underrated as a tourist spot IMO.
Are you kidding? Have you ever tried to go there in October?
I think this is going to change in the next decade or so, thankfully.
Ok, but do you like your Lobster Rolls hot or cold?
Quite honestly I can’t get behind a cold, mayonnaise lobster roll. They’re dubious at best and I’ve tried actual good ones and something about them doesn’t agree w my soul. I’ve never had one of the CT style ones but honestly I’m on their side. Butter and HOT lobster just go together.
It's only CERTAIN people who disregard CERTAIN cities and think only CERTAIN cities exist. Of this I am CERTAIN!
👀
Having grown up in Bridgeport, I definitely don't think this is a POC thing and more just trying to put your best foot forward. When you have guests over your house, you're going to make sure your house is clean and not show them a broken window or the hole roaches crawl out of. Same when recommending a town in New England. I'm not going to recommend a tourist visit Bridgeport, because they're going to get robbed. I'm going to recommend they visit Middletown or Mystic. And sure, maybe you go to Bridgeport for the parade, or New Haven for the pizza or the Yale space, and it's fun and great, and then you leave, because again, recommending someone visit a place that is not safe is not necessarily helpful.
It’s more of a classism thing than anything. I take your point though on cleanliness. On crime though lbr— even our “dangerous areas” don’t typically have much random crime. I’d only really warn ppl abt New Haven so they could guard their catalytic converter
During the pandemic when we weren’t allowed out of the state, me and my pod explored Mass. There are some amazing overlooked places. Some of the trash talking may be by people who want places to stay affordable and/or uncrowded. It’s basically futile.
I'm a big fan of both worcester and lowell- and for CT I like new london
I’ve definitely spent way more time than OP in Hartford and I can confidently say, fuck Hartford.
From the Hartford area. There's so many places in Connecticut that get slept on because it's Connecticut. Hartford has a huge Jamaican population, it and New Haven have lots of Puerto Ricans and in both cases they contribute heavily to the city's culture and energy. Bridgeport is well, Bridgeport. Unfortunately it's reputation is still somewhat deserved. Stamford and Fairfield have a larger presence than they deserve. Probably just because they're the places New Yorkers go to. But there's much more unique about Hartford and New Haven than Stamford and Fairfield.
What? Are you just trying to stir up shit to make a flaccid point? How much are people saying about Torrington? And that’s 93% white. Compare that to New Haven My entire life no one talks about Lawrence. Not when it was all white and certainly not now that it isn’t. Look, it’s not about race it’s about interest. There are a shit ton of small, quiet, unremarkable towns and cities in New England (same as everywhere else) and a small few that aren’t and that’s where you find areas of interest. If the people you want to hear from aren’t taking about places you care about maybe it’s time for you to make a move.
Are you talking about Manch Vegas or Nashua?
You're saying what the rest of us have been saying for years. It's so strange. Reminds me of those horror movies where the towns lock each other under a dome, thinking the exposed towns are the bad ones when really they're living hell inside those things. Their whole lives are just the same bubble wrap thing for generations. It can feel like you're talking to spoiled zombies that are all to proud of living that bubble wrap as if they're the most interesting people in the world. They say they travel to places, but just tour to hotels don't actually integrate wherever they go and actually learn about where they're at. Everything is so careful. The most random fears. The rest of the country and the world are hellscape. You don't know whether to genuinely feel bad or stare at a random pothole in the ground that's got more texture than whatever these brains have sometimes. It can feel too "Stepford Wives". I grew up in the wealthier towns. My parents left them after growing sick of the "bubbling". They favored NYC but were given a competitive contract to work at a hospital here (one's a doctor, another a surgeon). My father is from Barcelona, my mom Latin American. They moved here because we vacationed here during the autumn in the late 2000s. We all loved the leaves and despite my dad saying he loathed the "too much too "townie" thing as he and the friends he visited stated, us kids were spoiled brats: We wanted leaves, we got leaves. When I tell you my dad's Spaniard thought this place was too "Stepford Wives" he meant it. I remember I went to his practice to bring up snacks I made when he made the most epic eye roll at hearing an elderly couple bemoan about an specific milltown "out of nowhere" (likely triggered because the MA taking their vitals was Hispanic). The whole point was to make the girl feel bad and my dad cleared his throat to cut it out. That tendency was one of the big reasons he felt "digusted" to be here and like this was not where we wanted to be. He'd say if all these amenities resulted in that level of ignorance he wanted out. He said he couldn't believe half the things he'd hear because, yes, he's White. He said the small towns in the South felt less provincial even so the NE thing tendency to slam the milltowns as if to elevate oneself near the betters is somethingamy consider asinine and ridiculous. After a few years, the parents finally had it and moved to one of the "milltowns." To their surprise, they weren't the only people of their sort in these places and living in them for the same reason. It is a reality that some places will run more provincial than others. My dad thought MA would be more "wordly" and above such things because of the educated branding. He calls people like that "the bubble wrap people" for the sensation they inspire. They make you jump a little, and then you want to pop them. 🤣 Whenever one of us would meet one, he said it would be relaxing to grab a roll of bubble wrap and twist with passion. Then quickly remove yourself and pretend they don't exist in the sane way they treat the world. His hack has been surprisingly therapeutic. He said the behavior is a choice, it's not from innocence is out of perceived superiority or the need to feel that way. They're aware they do it and that the trigger is uncomfortable, but their need for superiority is shameless. Every group and country has it, locals certainly like the to skirt behind that particular comfort: but he thought New England's particularly annoying because of the tendency to emphasize that "educated" branding doing a lot of work to sell the area by downplaying the undesirable "quirk". To deal with it, he'd say to express said annoyance and treat them exactly as they do or laugh at them for openly admitting how feeble minded they are. Dad's one of those men that is petty. He's never had and has no patience for the bullshit as he calls it.