>State officials also voted to strike other terms from law enforcement training manuals, including “cocaine psychosis” and “**sudden in custody death.**”
Highly Highly doubt this happens unaided.
I've had the co police from two different precincts pull guns on me twice when an ambulance was called. The worst time they had me cornered in my bathroom, I had had a panic attack and was in my bathtub (just sitting there) and had been for a while. 3 police had guns on me for a while until the fire fighters yelled at them to stop it so they could check on me.
The other time the one who stopped them was an officer I had given beers to when he got called to my place a few times on bogus noise complaints. I remember being glad hearing that guys voice saying he knew me and that I wouldn't hurt anyone.
I hope this sort of thing will curb their want to pull a gun on a person crying quietly in the fetal postion.
Edit to note that I'm white passing but the emergency calls for the ambulance were made by Black people each time this has happened so I've always considered that is why they came in guns drawn.
Totally justified, but that’s how you get yourself a dislocated shoulder while they cuff you for resisting arrest.
That’s why police reform needs to come from the top down. Too bad half the country supports this idiocy.
No no no no. Ask 10 neighbors if they are cool with a convicted pedo moving in next door. Ask those same people why they trust the court’s conviction yet not the court’s reintegration and I would be flabbergasted if all 10 don’t just stare at you dumbfoundingly.
> Please tell me you told him to go fuck himself once it was all sorted out.
Depending on the color of one's skin, and what they were wearing that day, this could turn out to be pretty dangerous. A White person wearing a polo shirt and slacks? Or a Black man in a hoodie? This matters a lot in America.
I think it depends on the situation, rather than the actual location. If it is in the middle of a deserted parking lot with no cameras around? That is pretty risky if you are a Black man wearing jeans and a hoodie, no matter which state or city you are in.
If it was the Aurora PD that would have for sure ended with him getting left in the back of a squad car sitting on train tracks.
[It's not hyperbole](https://youtu.be/7xHvgwpfAOg?si=HVbd0cBHFEa1YNi2)
Wait. You guys found your trailer, you recovered it, then you called the cops to come and fill out recovery paperwork and the cop still threatened to arrest you? Forget donuts, that motherfucker eats crayons.
I worked for a car sharing company in San Francisco back in the day and we had a cardinal rule for this very reason - once a car is reported stolen, NO ONE IS TO TOUCH IT if they find it on the street later. This was before GPS so when our cars went missing, they were gone, but we would get calls from the public when one of our cars sat parked somewhere more than a day. It could only be picked up from impound once it's been towed off the street.
Swift, aka Sure Wish I Finished Training… I don’t remember a truck stop on 25 between the springs and denver. Then again colorado has changed so much in 10 years there might be one now.. maybe castle rock?
However I do remember driving from the springs back to south denver (Arapahoe rd) being side by side with a semi (I had a Toyota Tacoma) when it took a direct hit by a lightning bolt… I couldn’t hear anything, I went deaf, just had a metallic taste in my mouth, I just ripped the truck to the left off the road to avoid a giant semi going the same thing.
I am in upstate NY, I came home from work in 2019 and saw a cop banging on my door, like nearly breaking it down style, not knocking at it. I got out of my car, said Hi, excuse me what is going on, and the guy pulled his gun instantly. Didn't point it at me but un-holstered it. He was at the wrong address and then interrogated me about why I was shaking and tried to get me to say I was on drugs or drunk.
My incident was just crazy, I pulled up to my apartment, see this cop not getting an answer at the door and went "Excuse me what is going on" and boom, gun drawn. It wasn't even the right address, so of course I was a little shaky...the guy was responding to a call a block away. Like, of course when a lethal weapon is out it is scary to people. Had he just drawn his weapon, and shot me....that would be it. It was for a freaking car alarm going off for hours, but sure.....lets draw weapons.
Edit: just for clarification, wrong address, same door number - different block, but holy christmas it was a car alarm not something violent or crazy
> Edit to note that I'm white passing but the emergency calls for the ambulance were made by Black people each time this has happened so I've always considered that is why they came in guns drawn.
They hate the mentally ill just as much as they hate other minorities.
Saying this as someone with mental illness and someone with friends who are mentally ill and were treated like shit by cops during their crises.
I just said I'm in CO and they pulled guns on me twice. I've been here for over 30 years and lost a few family members to police shooting them (I was first introduced to the idea that the police shoot and kill people when I was 4 or 5 and went to the first funeral).
I'm not sure why you are telling me this. I understood the danger I was in both times.
"It's just a complete coincidence that this death happened right at the moment when the police were wrestling with him, constricting his airflow, etc." - Conservatives *every* time.
You are under no obligation to follow unlawful orders. George Washington was called a terrorist too. It sounds like your position is : she shouldn't have been so excited and delirious. You need weapons for an insurrection. If the police just let you in and lead you into the building that's called a tour
A nuclear football and the lynchpin of our democracy at the moment was just past that door. I'm sorry, I think her shooting was justified.
She had every chance to stand down, and the stakes were a lot higher than a few bucks of lost tax revenue.
I forget which case it was but the Baltimore County PD would take kids, throw them in the back of a paddy wagon, in handcuffs, with no seatbelt and just drive recklessly. This would cause the person inside to be smacked back and forth as they weren't secured.
Usually black men.
Then like 8 years ago someone died and they investigated.
That was Freddie Gray. He died from a spinal cord Injury resulting from being unsecured and tossed around the vehicle.
He alleged crime was unlawful possession of a knife. Whether or not he was “guilty”, he did not deserve death.
Freddy Gray https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Freddie_Gray
Rough rides have been a common police game (they do this shit for their own amusement) all over the country for decades. Baltimore PD just got a lot of attention when they were caught.
Baltimore PD (and some surrounding counties) are notoriously corrupt/fucked up. If you check news articles every couple of years BPD has to purge ten to twenty-some officers for shit like stealing from crime scenes, dealing drugs, abusing people, etc.
Wait, like “sudden infant death syndrome” but for someone in custody? Wtf?
I wish we didn’t need body cams and in car cams and 360 out of car cams, but we do, we really really do. We also need it to be written in law that the disappearance of any footage in an incident where something needed to be reviewed should assume the worst.
Like fine if it goes missing, but we’ll take that to be evidence you’re covering up a crime.
We have all that stuff tho. What we need is for them to be held accountable. We need a justice system that cares about the people more than the cops.
A video helps, but if a DA doesn't want to press charges, then that cop is getting away with it.
Sudden unexplained police custody deaths were happening so often that there were write-ups in medical journals for a long time, with the suggestion being that these deaths were resulting from extreme stress.
"Excited delirium" was the term.
Medical organizations are now disavowing the concept.
Sudden in custody death refers to when an individual is placed in a position where there own body prevents them from breathing. Think handcuffed and left on the floor.
There’s a massive history behind the phrase excited delirium, and to sum it up, it’s pretty much always meant “cops murdered this person with excessive force, but want to blame them for their own death”.
>Highly Highly doubt this happens unaided.
It doesn't. Behind the Bastards did a great episode on this.
TL;DR: no legitimate scientist, scientific body, medical professional, or medical body recognizes any of this crap. It was 100% unscientific nonsense invented by law enforcement agencies to explain away the murders they commit.
Cocaine psychosis seems plausible to me, provided crack use would fall under that. I don't see why a long crack binge couldn't eventually lead someone into psychosis. It'd be expensive to go that long, but not impossible I'd imagine. That being said, I completely understand taking it out if they regularly abuse it to explain away assaulting people they arrest and such.
Police are not qualified to diagnose psychosis, let alone with such a specific cause, on the basis of a brief and escalated interaction.
These weren't terms that coroners used, they were things police were trained to use as justifications for lethal force.
Northern Calloway’s death is as much of an indictment of our woeful lack of any mental health system as it is a criticism against law enforcement. I don’t know if the cops who took him to the Stony Lounge psychiatric hospital were innocent or if they did something to him, but I do know that someone who attacks several people with an iron while naked should get a lot more mental care than just taking him to a mental hospital and letting him go back to *Sesame Street* not too long after that.
EDIT: the iron attack was in 1980.
That was right before he died. He was taken to Stony Lounge, attacked a staffer, and transferred to another institution where he died.
He had previously been on and off with Sesame Street because of his erratic behavior, being violent. He had also been fighting cancer. My speculation is that the cancer metastasized to his brain, but we'll never know. Such a sad story.
It’s possible that cancer metastasized to his brain in 1988 or 1989, but I don’t know if that explains what happened to him when he attacked those people with an iron in [1980](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Calloway#Legal_troubles,_health_problems_and_final_years_on_Sesame_Street). That’s the point I am trying to make - our mental health system is awful, because some politicians just don’t want to pay for it.
I’m young enough that I don’t remember David on Sesame Street but old enough to remember him on *Christmas Eve on Sesame Street.* when I was little, I wondered why he - and Mr. Hooper - were there on Christmas and no other time. Regardless, I looked forward to that special every year when I was little, and I’m glad he was able to contribute a little bit to that joy that so many other kids and I felt.
I was a little kid in the 70's and early 80's. Sesame Street was the only show I was allowed to watch for years. I do not remember this poor guy's character at all. All the rest, yes, but I've been watching YouTube clips of him since I read your comment and none of them ring a bell. Bums me out a little.
Excited delirium was never anything more than a pseudoscience with racist origins that was adopted by the police to help remove them from accountability for their actions. Kneel on somebody's back for five minutes and they died? Excited delirium! Tase somebody repeatedly and they died? Excited delirium! Since it's a condition that never really existed, it's impossible to prove that it *didn't* kill the victim--in much the same was as you can't prove they weren't killed by a poltergeist.
If there are two things cops love, it's escaping accountability and pseudoscience that confirms their own preconceived motions (see: lie detectors, criminal profiling, micro expressions, arson forensics, firearm forensics, hair analysis, etc.) so excited delirium was a beautiful panacea for them.
A lot of killers walk free because of this travesty of a diagnosis. A lot of victims will never have justice. Excited delirium should have never existed as a medical diagnosis, and the fact that it was ever taken seriously by our courts is an indictment against our justice system--we are often no different than a mob of medieval peasants interpreting a handful of thrown chicken bones.
>Excited delirium was never anything more than a pseudoscience with racist origins that was adopted by the police to help remove them from accountability for their actions.
I teach pseudoscience each year for the first week of science class. I wish I could teach *this* pseudoscience, but I'd be fired in a heartbeat here in ~~Central Florida~~ Nazi Germany.
It was an "accepted diagnosis" in the sense that a single medical organization, the American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP), recognized it in a [2009 white paper](https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/media/publications/acep_report_on_excited_delirium_syndrome_sept_2009.pdf). This white paper did not undergo peer review. That same organization [retracted their support](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/health/acep-rejects-excited-delirium-term/index.html) for the diagnosis of excited delirium in 2021.
>ACEP’s Board of Directors confirmed Thursday that its 2009 white paper on excited delirium syndrome is “outdated and does not align with the College’s position based on the most recent science,” according to a statement on the organization’s website.
It is not a ""well accepted" diagnosis according to any existing medical organization. It is not an accepted diagnosis at all.
They’ve just changed the name to “extreme agitation.”
Edit: I should clarify. I’m a paramedic and our system now uses this term. The use of ketamine or (less frequently) Midazolam is still common. The major change has been to emphasize airway protection (mostly positional), and early transfer from police custody to EMS.
Treating the same symptoms, but viewing it differently. The focus on airway is critical, sedation is often needed for patient/staff safety.
Edit: and I’d say the “syndrome” is mostly discredited. If you pile on top of a marathon runner at the end of his race you’re likely to asphyxiate them. Body has more demand for oxygen and you limit it. Not really worthy of a “syndrome.”
No it didnt. Thats not what happened and the reason it grew so fast and used overwhelmingly to diagnkse deaths that *happened in custody*
You have no background information on the topic and youre seemingly incapable or unwilling to learn.
It just isn’t a syndrome in the conventional sense. Nobody dies from excited delirium without being aggressively restrained. It’s the restraint practices that were deployed that caused the rash of deaths, not some independent grouping of symptoms.
Edit: aggressively restrained in a manner that effects either their respiration and/or circulation
Edit #2: that emergency physicians encounter this exclusively is not true. They are the first to treat it in hospital. Depending on patient outcome they are then sent to ICU, psych ward, jail, home, or the morgue. Medical science’s interest in this doesn’t end in the ED.
Terms change frequently to better describe the underlying processes. Excited delirium no longer best describes our understanding of the physiology behind these events. Excited delirium was originally conceived as some runaway event within the body that could lead to death. When better examined it was determined that these deaths didn’t occur outside of life threatening restraint practices, so it’s not a self contained “syndrome.” Since the excited delirium theory has been disproved, it has become a disused term by those best educated on the topic. It’s similar to “hysteria,” an old fashioned term full of bias that no longer served the purpose of advancing the science. Lay people may still use the term broadly (no pun intended), but it is not used by clinicians.
That would be all well and good if we go under the assumption that the police are working in good faith (which many are). The fact that there are a ton of well documented cases of the police violating the trust of the people means that they should not be allowed to use an unverifiable cause of death when in police custody.
The fact that police officers, who are not medical professionals, can make any kind of medical statement and claim it as fact in the court of law is asinine.
When they say they are following the protocol for “excited delirium” in court. Yes they are justifying their actions with the medical condition that they themselves have determined.
It’s unlikely the ACEP expects to be the ultimate authority on anything they encounter. Their expertise in dealing with patients in crisis is informed not only in an ED echo chamber. Their reliance on a robust scientific medical profession is what makes them effective. Also, you seem to have a very limited understanding of who staffs emergency departments. The very same ED provider who sees these cases may also be a tenured med school professor and clinician published on this very subject. Many Drs split their time between several practices and organizations, especially the good ones. You seem disinterested in understanding the nuance of this change and eager to maintain a discredited status quo.
Yeah sure buddy. Only one 'organization' temporarily recognizes this out of all the groups in the *entire world* and you say it was rejected because of 'political reasons'
No, you stand behind this death casus belli because you want to see it used on people that was killed so your blue heroes can get away with murder again.
The term was first coined by a ~~medical examiner~~ pathologist named Charles Wetli, who in the 1980s used the term to explain the deaths of a number of Black women in Miami. Wetli surmised that stimulant use over time caused changes in brain chemistry leading to death. Wetli also surmised that the syndrome affected Black men and Black women differently. In men, it gave them super-strength, while it affected women sexually. This ties in with the common racist tropes of black men being brutishly strong, and black women being promiscuous.
It was eventually found that these women were strangled to death by a serial killer. Excited delirium, from its early beginnings, was a term used to misdiagnose the manual asphyxiation deaths of Black people on the margins of society.
Despite being wrong, Wetli continued to use the term and soon expanded it to not only include people who used drugs, but also those who didn't. A thoughtful observer might notice that the set of people who don't use drugs and the set of people who do use drugs encompasses literally every person alive. Since then, it has been used as a catch-all for any 'mysterious' death that occurs after the police asphyxiate or beat the shit out of somebody, where it has consistently been disproportionately applied to Black people and other minorities.
edit: Corrected Wetli's profession from "medical examiner" to "pathologist"
Luther Bell's study is often cited as an early example of excited delirium, but that comparison does not hold up on closer examination. Bell's patients suffered their malady for days or even *weeks* before they died, while deaths attributed to excited delirium are generally very sudden. The link to Bell is simply used to give the perception that there is longstanding precedent for excited delirium as a medical condition, but it does not survive scrutiny.
Bell's 1849 paper, appearing in the *American Journal of Insanity*, has perhaps my favorite title of any scientific article ever, by the way:
>On a form of disease resembling some advanced stages of mania and fever, but so contradistinguished from any ordinarily observed or described combination of symptoms, as to render it probable that it may be an overlooked and hitherto unrecorded malady.
That's not the abstract, it's the *article title*. Maybe doctors got paid by the word back then.
The only major medical organization to *ever* support excited delirium, ACEP, did so in a white paper. White papers are not peer reviewed science, and ACEP later retracted the paper to boot.
But I suppose they are the only unbiased source? While prestigious publications such as the [Virginia Law Review](https://virginialawreview.org/articles/excited-delirium-and-police-use-of-force/) or actual peer-reviewed medical journals such as The Lancet* or [Psychological Medicine](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9280280/pdf/S0033291722001076a.pdf) are simply written by journalists, activists, and redditors prone to outcome bias?
The scientific literature on this subject is clear, and it consistently supports the arguments that I am making here. The fact that the scientific literature on this subject is clear is *why* I make the arguments I am making here. I think you should examine your own sources before you make accusations of bias against others.
*https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(22)00410-X/fulltext
The only major paper supporting excited delirium was not scientific, and it was later retracted. Why do you require a higher burden of proof to "debunk" a concept than you require to confirm it?
The paper you linked is addressed in the [Psychology Today](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9280280/pdf/S0033291722001076a.pdf) review (McGuinnes and Lipsedge) I cited (and which you quickly dismissed and did not bother to read).
>The lack of consensus was made clear by a systematic review of
the medical literature on excited delirium conducted by a team of
emergency physicians at Lausanne University Hospital (Gonin,
Beysard, Yersin, & Carron, 2017, p. 552). Whilst the review did
not question the validity of excited delirium as a real clinical
entity, it was highly critical of 66 published studies because of
their limited levels of evidence. Although the ACEP task
force had recommended that a diagnosis of excited delirium be
based upon evidence of perceived abnormal behaviour and at
least six of their 10 potential clinical criteria for such a diagnosis
(Vilke et al., 2012b, p. 900), the Lausanne review team found
many patients to have been diagnosed with excited delirium des-
pite presenting with fewer than six of these diagnostic features.
The most common features – including claims of superhuman
strength, bizarre behaviour and unusual pain tolerance – did
not appear with equal frequency and appeared not to be manda-
tory (Gonin et al., 2017, p. 561). The prevalence of excited delir-
ium also appeared to ‘vary widely with context’. Whilst cases
requiring out-of-hospital restraint were observed in fewer than
two cases for 10 000 emergency calls for advanced life support,
excited delirium was associated with more than 10% of deaths
in police custody and said to represent more than 10% of
CEW-related deaths
By your paper's own criteria, almost every single paper they reviewed, they classified as either "low" or "very low" with regard to quality of evidence. None were ranked better than "moderate". Most were also considered "weak" which they describe as "studies with severe limitations." Expect that many of the dozens of articles you found on Google Scholar are these very same low-quality, weak papers, as described by your own cite.
I genuinely appreciate that you are offering evidence for your assertions, but I do not think they make a very compelling case. If you're truly interested in this subject, I suggest giving the McGuinness paper above a more thorough browse. They make the case better than I ever could, and they use *extensive* citations to do so, should you wish to delve deeper. I believe their work goes a step beyond being the mere "opinion" piece you labeled it as.
Should individuals granted exceptional privileges (state-sanctioned use of violence to force compliance) not be subject to exceptional scrutiny when things go bad?
You are falling for the propaganda. The term was likely coined in order to conjure mental images of “super human strength” and whatnot, in order to bias against the victim. It’s actual application is as an after the fact medical diagnosis, meant to explain why someone who was in police custody, or having an encounter with the police, died.
Do you see the difference?
Good riddance. A diagnosis of convenience for corrupt police officers — and corrupt, enabling medical examiners — to cover up deaths caused by police brutality.
A diagnosis of “excited delirium” adds a large, almost insurmountable barrier to families seeking justice for their loved ones. It’s difficult enough to challenge a case of police brutality. It’s virtually impossible when a medical examiner “diagnoses” them with a medical condition and lists the manner of death as natural or accidental causes.
IMO every single case that lists excited delirium as the cause of death needs to be reopened and reinvestigated. I don’t know how many of them would actually be prosecutable at this point, but these victims deserve the kind of proper investigation they obviously didn’t get the first time around.
There are 3 cops on trial in Tacoma, WA right now for murdering a man named Manuel (Manny) Ellis in 2020 and they're trying to blame it on trashy excited delirium bullshit. In reality, they initiated contact and then beat, tased, choked, hogtied, spit-hooded, and knelt on him until he died. But they claim excited delirium due to meth intoxication. Fucking murdering pieces of shit. Hopefully they are convicted. Maybe they'll get the Chauvin treatment in prison.
Is not just the ACLU:
"Excited delirium is not recognized by the World Health Organization, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Medical Association, and not listed as a medical condition in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders[3][42] or International Classification of Diseases"
And even though the ACEP accepts that there is a thing with those symptoms, they have stopped using the term:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excited_delirium
Hey in CO we were the first state to strike the slavery exception clause from our state constitution, once it was presented in plain language. Something that needs to happen to the US’ 13th amendment.
a guy I went to high school with had either a mental health episode or something drug-induced (although no known drugs were found in his system besides weed, I believe) and his parents called the cops to help because they didn't know what else to do. The cops showed up and tased him to death - repeatedly saying, "stop screaming" as he kept screaming and writhing while he was being tased. He didn't attack the cops or his family, he was just going through an intense mental episode and wouldn't "settle down." There's bodycam footage that was released that doesn't show much but you can hear him scream over and over while the cops just keep tasing him and yelling at him until he goes silent.
Official cause of death was "excited delirium." One of the cops was put on administrative leave for a while but went back on the force eventually. He was my high school liaison, I remember him well.
These cops didn't have stressful jobs. Our city had basically no violent crime. They were just trained to murder someone instead of helping them in situations like this.
It needs to be removed at the county level, too. Additionally, CO has some of the worst police in the country. I saw what happened when a loved one needed medical attention and was taken to jail for 5 days instead.
There also needs to be serious retraining of current law enforcement - not just the newbies - so that they, too, cannot claim “excited delirium” in court and/or try to get grandfathered in.
How about they call it what it is, they are in shock. Can you provide the training materials on how cops deal with these encounters because it seem that the response is always to subdue instead of applying medical treatment.
When a term is used that implies that the suspect was combative instead of implying that the person was in a medical crisis, that is where shit goes sideways.
Example “I was detaining a subject that was displaying signs of exited delirium and he died when we were placing him on handcuffs” sounds much different than “I was seating a subject that was in shock and he died when we were placing the handcuffs on him”.
Or even better, the police should have immediate access to psychiatric professionals who know how to de-escalate and deal with someone in distress. Cops get trained to be hammers and to them everything is a nail that must be physically handled.
And yeah, I’ve seen cops pull their guns out on a car accident victim saying “excited delirium”. When the person was clearly in shock and confused.
Sure if they do in-fact have excited delirium, the problem is that cops are not qualified to determine if they are or not. There are also the numerous instances of cops being the cause of the distressing state or using it as an excuse for vile abuses. There is no good solution, other than to have psychiatric professionals that can respond to emergency calls. We have done this in Orlando and the pilot program was very successful.
The fact is that cops no longer have the public’s trust and this is a result of the abuse they have demonstrated and this has been a tool that prevents accountability.
Edit: the only solution I can think of is to have all cops with their cameras on at all times. That way a jury can determine if specific actions are justified.
Can they please get rid of Havana Syndrome next?
Or what it should be better known as ‘US foreign workers finding half arsed excuses to retire with benefits and pay outs’.
>State officials also voted to strike other terms from law enforcement training manuals, including “cocaine psychosis” and “**sudden in custody death.**” Highly Highly doubt this happens unaided.
I've had the co police from two different precincts pull guns on me twice when an ambulance was called. The worst time they had me cornered in my bathroom, I had had a panic attack and was in my bathtub (just sitting there) and had been for a while. 3 police had guns on me for a while until the fire fighters yelled at them to stop it so they could check on me. The other time the one who stopped them was an officer I had given beers to when he got called to my place a few times on bogus noise complaints. I remember being glad hearing that guys voice saying he knew me and that I wouldn't hurt anyone. I hope this sort of thing will curb their want to pull a gun on a person crying quietly in the fetal postion. Edit to note that I'm white passing but the emergency calls for the ambulance were made by Black people each time this has happened so I've always considered that is why they came in guns drawn.
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Please tell me you told him to go fuck himself once it was all sorted out.
Totally justified, but that’s how you get yourself a dislocated shoulder while they cuff you for resisting arrest. That’s why police reform needs to come from the top down. Too bad half the country supports this idiocy.
Not half. The 1%. Theyre the rich fucks rabid attack dogs.
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Average GOPer: Tread on me if you must, as long as you tread on *those people* harder and I get to watch.
There has been something like 60 years of non stop pro-police programming on US airwaves. It’s wildly more than the 1%
Something can be both a class problem, an authoritarianism problem, and a racism problem at the same time. Police are all 3
No no no no. Ask 10 neighbors if they are cool with a convicted pedo moving in next door. Ask those same people why they trust the court’s conviction yet not the court’s reintegration and I would be flabbergasted if all 10 don’t just stare at you dumbfoundingly.
That's how people die
> Please tell me you told him to go fuck himself once it was all sorted out. Depending on the color of one's skin, and what they were wearing that day, this could turn out to be pretty dangerous. A White person wearing a polo shirt and slacks? Or a Black man in a hoodie? This matters a lot in America.
Especially depending where in America we're talking, although I imagine racism still happens in some form or another throughout.
I think it depends on the situation, rather than the actual location. If it is in the middle of a deserted parking lot with no cameras around? That is pretty risky if you are a Black man wearing jeans and a hoodie, no matter which state or city you are in.
It’s a pretty stupid thing to say even if you’re white
If it was the Aurora PD that would have for sure ended with him getting left in the back of a squad car sitting on train tracks. [It's not hyperbole](https://youtu.be/7xHvgwpfAOg?si=HVbd0cBHFEa1YNi2)
Swift? East denver? Commerce city or Aurora, on I-70? Maybe Brighton on 2-70, but I’m sticking with my first…
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Wait. You guys found your trailer, you recovered it, then you called the cops to come and fill out recovery paperwork and the cop still threatened to arrest you? Forget donuts, that motherfucker eats crayons.
No, Marines have more self control and situational awareness than that.
I worked for a car sharing company in San Francisco back in the day and we had a cardinal rule for this very reason - once a car is reported stolen, NO ONE IS TO TOUCH IT if they find it on the street later. This was before GPS so when our cars went missing, they were gone, but we would get calls from the public when one of our cars sat parked somewhere more than a day. It could only be picked up from impound once it's been towed off the street.
> that motherfucker eats crayons Do not besmirch the Marines. Marines have better self control and engagement discipline than these rabid fucks.
Swift, aka Sure Wish I Finished Training… I don’t remember a truck stop on 25 between the springs and denver. Then again colorado has changed so much in 10 years there might be one now.. maybe castle rock?
There's been one in Monument for over 10 years.
I spent 20 years between Durango and south denver, left in ‘08, so that makes sense.
I thought it stood for So What'd I Fuck-up Today?
However I do remember driving from the springs back to south denver (Arapahoe rd) being side by side with a semi (I had a Toyota Tacoma) when it took a direct hit by a lightning bolt… I couldn’t hear anything, I went deaf, just had a metallic taste in my mouth, I just ripped the truck to the left off the road to avoid a giant semi going the same thing.
That is incredible. I hope the semi driver survived.
I am in upstate NY, I came home from work in 2019 and saw a cop banging on my door, like nearly breaking it down style, not knocking at it. I got out of my car, said Hi, excuse me what is going on, and the guy pulled his gun instantly. Didn't point it at me but un-holstered it. He was at the wrong address and then interrogated me about why I was shaking and tried to get me to say I was on drugs or drunk.
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My incident was just crazy, I pulled up to my apartment, see this cop not getting an answer at the door and went "Excuse me what is going on" and boom, gun drawn. It wasn't even the right address, so of course I was a little shaky...the guy was responding to a call a block away. Like, of course when a lethal weapon is out it is scary to people. Had he just drawn his weapon, and shot me....that would be it. It was for a freaking car alarm going off for hours, but sure.....lets draw weapons. Edit: just for clarification, wrong address, same door number - different block, but holy christmas it was a car alarm not something violent or crazy
Cops have one means of interaction when facing a situation: violence
> Edit to note that I'm white passing but the emergency calls for the ambulance were made by Black people each time this has happened so I've always considered that is why they came in guns drawn. They hate the mentally ill just as much as they hate other minorities. Saying this as someone with mental illness and someone with friends who are mentally ill and were treated like shit by cops during their crises.
Here in Colorado, the police would just murder you. https://www.denverpost.com/2022/09/13/christian-glass-clear-creek-county-shooting-parents/
I just said I'm in CO and they pulled guns on me twice. I've been here for over 30 years and lost a few family members to police shooting them (I was first introduced to the idea that the police shoot and kill people when I was 4 or 5 and went to the first funeral). I'm not sure why you are telling me this. I understood the danger I was in both times.
Man, you are lucky to not live in Colorado then. There they would just murder you.
Yeah if they lived in Colorado for 30 years they'd have been murdered by police what, once or twice a year? That'd be terrible!
What was the lead up to the cops being called and you being cornered in a bathroom?
Fishing so you can victim blame?
Why would people run from the cops? “sudden in custody death.” Because that is real possibility.
"It's just a complete coincidence that this death happened right at the moment when the police were wrestling with him, constricting his airflow, etc." - Conservatives *every* time.
But he was selling cigarettes out of his trunk. He obviously deserved it.
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She was unarmed. Do you or do you not like cops murdering unarmed people? I can't tell
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You are under no obligation to follow unlawful orders. George Washington was called a terrorist too. It sounds like your position is : she shouldn't have been so excited and delirious. You need weapons for an insurrection. If the police just let you in and lead you into the building that's called a tour
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A nuclear football and the lynchpin of our democracy at the moment was just past that door. I'm sorry, I think her shooting was justified. She had every chance to stand down, and the stakes were a lot higher than a few bucks of lost tax revenue.
Once in high school he took a selfie while scowling and wearing a hat that said "gangsta". #NotAnAngel #PlayStupidGames
I forget which case it was but the Baltimore County PD would take kids, throw them in the back of a paddy wagon, in handcuffs, with no seatbelt and just drive recklessly. This would cause the person inside to be smacked back and forth as they weren't secured. Usually black men. Then like 8 years ago someone died and they investigated.
That was Freddie Gray. He died from a spinal cord Injury resulting from being unsecured and tossed around the vehicle. He alleged crime was unlawful possession of a knife. Whether or not he was “guilty”, he did not deserve death.
Freddy Gray https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Freddie_Gray Rough rides have been a common police game (they do this shit for their own amusement) all over the country for decades. Baltimore PD just got a lot of attention when they were caught.
Baltimore PD (and some surrounding counties) are notoriously corrupt/fucked up. If you check news articles every couple of years BPD has to purge ten to twenty-some officers for shit like stealing from crime scenes, dealing drugs, abusing people, etc.
Wait, like “sudden infant death syndrome” but for someone in custody? Wtf? I wish we didn’t need body cams and in car cams and 360 out of car cams, but we do, we really really do. We also need it to be written in law that the disappearance of any footage in an incident where something needed to be reviewed should assume the worst. Like fine if it goes missing, but we’ll take that to be evidence you’re covering up a crime.
I give it a year or two before Aurora PD starts calling this something like *idiopathic cessation of life* to get around the policy change.
We have all that stuff tho. What we need is for them to be held accountable. We need a justice system that cares about the people more than the cops. A video helps, but if a DA doesn't want to press charges, then that cop is getting away with it.
Sudden unexplained police custody deaths were happening so often that there were write-ups in medical journals for a long time, with the suggestion being that these deaths were resulting from extreme stress. "Excited delirium" was the term. Medical organizations are now disavowing the concept.
"sudden in custody death" sounds like the catch-all, too lazy to figure out a real cause or won't admit the real cause option.
Sudden in custody death refers to when an individual is placed in a position where there own body prevents them from breathing. Think handcuffed and left on the floor.
There’s a massive history behind the phrase excited delirium, and to sum it up, it’s pretty much always meant “cops murdered this person with excessive force, but want to blame them for their own death”.
As in “ the suspect suddenly got SICD”
>Highly Highly doubt this happens unaided. It doesn't. Behind the Bastards did a great episode on this. TL;DR: no legitimate scientist, scientific body, medical professional, or medical body recognizes any of this crap. It was 100% unscientific nonsense invented by law enforcement agencies to explain away the murders they commit.
Cocaine psychosis seems plausible to me, provided crack use would fall under that. I don't see why a long crack binge couldn't eventually lead someone into psychosis. It'd be expensive to go that long, but not impossible I'd imagine. That being said, I completely understand taking it out if they regularly abuse it to explain away assaulting people they arrest and such.
Police are not qualified to diagnose psychosis, let alone with such a specific cause, on the basis of a brief and escalated interaction. These weren't terms that coroners used, they were things police were trained to use as justifications for lethal force.
This is the listed cause of death for the guy who played David on Sesame Street. We'll never know what the cops actually did to him.
Northern Calloway’s death is as much of an indictment of our woeful lack of any mental health system as it is a criticism against law enforcement. I don’t know if the cops who took him to the Stony Lounge psychiatric hospital were innocent or if they did something to him, but I do know that someone who attacks several people with an iron while naked should get a lot more mental care than just taking him to a mental hospital and letting him go back to *Sesame Street* not too long after that. EDIT: the iron attack was in 1980.
That was right before he died. He was taken to Stony Lounge, attacked a staffer, and transferred to another institution where he died. He had previously been on and off with Sesame Street because of his erratic behavior, being violent. He had also been fighting cancer. My speculation is that the cancer metastasized to his brain, but we'll never know. Such a sad story.
It’s possible that cancer metastasized to his brain in 1988 or 1989, but I don’t know if that explains what happened to him when he attacked those people with an iron in [1980](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Calloway#Legal_troubles,_health_problems_and_final_years_on_Sesame_Street). That’s the point I am trying to make - our mental health system is awful, because some politicians just don’t want to pay for it. I’m young enough that I don’t remember David on Sesame Street but old enough to remember him on *Christmas Eve on Sesame Street.* when I was little, I wondered why he - and Mr. Hooper - were there on Christmas and no other time. Regardless, I looked forward to that special every year when I was little, and I’m glad he was able to contribute a little bit to that joy that so many other kids and I felt.
I was a little kid in the 70's and early 80's. Sesame Street was the only show I was allowed to watch for years. I do not remember this poor guy's character at all. All the rest, yes, but I've been watching YouTube clips of him since I read your comment and none of them ring a bell. Bums me out a little.
> David on Sesame Street Sweet Sue's slimy shit ... never had any idea any of that happened ... how dreadful.
Wouldn’t it be crazy if we put the doctors in charge of all the medical stuff?
Lol the same doctors who couldn't figure out they were drug dealers for 10 years
What? Are you reading the same shit as us?
Excited delirium was never anything more than a pseudoscience with racist origins that was adopted by the police to help remove them from accountability for their actions. Kneel on somebody's back for five minutes and they died? Excited delirium! Tase somebody repeatedly and they died? Excited delirium! Since it's a condition that never really existed, it's impossible to prove that it *didn't* kill the victim--in much the same was as you can't prove they weren't killed by a poltergeist. If there are two things cops love, it's escaping accountability and pseudoscience that confirms their own preconceived motions (see: lie detectors, criminal profiling, micro expressions, arson forensics, firearm forensics, hair analysis, etc.) so excited delirium was a beautiful panacea for them. A lot of killers walk free because of this travesty of a diagnosis. A lot of victims will never have justice. Excited delirium should have never existed as a medical diagnosis, and the fact that it was ever taken seriously by our courts is an indictment against our justice system--we are often no different than a mob of medieval peasants interpreting a handful of thrown chicken bones.
Ironically, it's probably a better description of the cop's state of mind in these moments.
>Excited delirium was never anything more than a pseudoscience with racist origins that was adopted by the police to help remove them from accountability for their actions. I teach pseudoscience each year for the first week of science class. I wish I could teach *this* pseudoscience, but I'd be fired in a heartbeat here in ~~Central Florida~~ Nazi Germany.
Ex LE officer and I near 100% agree with this comment.
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It was an "accepted diagnosis" in the sense that a single medical organization, the American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP), recognized it in a [2009 white paper](https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/media/publications/acep_report_on_excited_delirium_syndrome_sept_2009.pdf). This white paper did not undergo peer review. That same organization [retracted their support](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/health/acep-rejects-excited-delirium-term/index.html) for the diagnosis of excited delirium in 2021. >ACEP’s Board of Directors confirmed Thursday that its 2009 white paper on excited delirium syndrome is “outdated and does not align with the College’s position based on the most recent science,” according to a statement on the organization’s website. It is not a ""well accepted" diagnosis according to any existing medical organization. It is not an accepted diagnosis at all.
No it's not, it's wildly rejected by the medical profession.... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excited_delirium
They’ve just changed the name to “extreme agitation.” Edit: I should clarify. I’m a paramedic and our system now uses this term. The use of ketamine or (less frequently) Midazolam is still common. The major change has been to emphasize airway protection (mostly positional), and early transfer from police custody to EMS.
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Treating the same symptoms, but viewing it differently. The focus on airway is critical, sedation is often needed for patient/staff safety. Edit: and I’d say the “syndrome” is mostly discredited. If you pile on top of a marathon runner at the end of his race you’re likely to asphyxiate them. Body has more demand for oxygen and you limit it. Not really worthy of a “syndrome.”
Agitation is a legitimate symtom, and not a diagnosis made up by cops and the axon corporation to legitimize police brutality. You see the difference?
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No it didnt. Thats not what happened and the reason it grew so fast and used overwhelmingly to diagnkse deaths that *happened in custody* You have no background information on the topic and youre seemingly incapable or unwilling to learn.
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I do know more than you, on this subject.
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It just isn’t a syndrome in the conventional sense. Nobody dies from excited delirium without being aggressively restrained. It’s the restraint practices that were deployed that caused the rash of deaths, not some independent grouping of symptoms. Edit: aggressively restrained in a manner that effects either their respiration and/or circulation Edit #2: that emergency physicians encounter this exclusively is not true. They are the first to treat it in hospital. Depending on patient outcome they are then sent to ICU, psych ward, jail, home, or the morgue. Medical science’s interest in this doesn’t end in the ED.
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Terms change frequently to better describe the underlying processes. Excited delirium no longer best describes our understanding of the physiology behind these events. Excited delirium was originally conceived as some runaway event within the body that could lead to death. When better examined it was determined that these deaths didn’t occur outside of life threatening restraint practices, so it’s not a self contained “syndrome.” Since the excited delirium theory has been disproved, it has become a disused term by those best educated on the topic. It’s similar to “hysteria,” an old fashioned term full of bias that no longer served the purpose of advancing the science. Lay people may still use the term broadly (no pun intended), but it is not used by clinicians.
Jesus I can't believe you're in medicine, sound more like a nursing aide...
The most medically uninformed people I've met was in the medical field. They always do.
That would be all well and good if we go under the assumption that the police are working in good faith (which many are). The fact that there are a ton of well documented cases of the police violating the trust of the people means that they should not be allowed to use an unverifiable cause of death when in police custody. The fact that police officers, who are not medical professionals, can make any kind of medical statement and claim it as fact in the court of law is asinine.
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When they say they are following the protocol for “excited delirium” in court. Yes they are justifying their actions with the medical condition that they themselves have determined.
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It’s unlikely the ACEP expects to be the ultimate authority on anything they encounter. Their expertise in dealing with patients in crisis is informed not only in an ED echo chamber. Their reliance on a robust scientific medical profession is what makes them effective. Also, you seem to have a very limited understanding of who staffs emergency departments. The very same ED provider who sees these cases may also be a tenured med school professor and clinician published on this very subject. Many Drs split their time between several practices and organizations, especially the good ones. You seem disinterested in understanding the nuance of this change and eager to maintain a discredited status quo.
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What is the scientific basis of your belief in excited delirium?
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shut the fuck up.
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Yeah sure buddy. Only one 'organization' temporarily recognizes this out of all the groups in the *entire world* and you say it was rejected because of 'political reasons' No, you stand behind this death casus belli because you want to see it used on people that was killed so your blue heroes can get away with murder again.
AAEM in shambles
Doubling down on stupidity, classic move. Well played.
ACEP doesnt recognize it either you dolt. https://www.acep.org/news/acep-newsroom-articles/aceps-position-on-hyperactive-delirium
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You really havent though.
found the cop apologist.
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The term was first coined by a ~~medical examiner~~ pathologist named Charles Wetli, who in the 1980s used the term to explain the deaths of a number of Black women in Miami. Wetli surmised that stimulant use over time caused changes in brain chemistry leading to death. Wetli also surmised that the syndrome affected Black men and Black women differently. In men, it gave them super-strength, while it affected women sexually. This ties in with the common racist tropes of black men being brutishly strong, and black women being promiscuous. It was eventually found that these women were strangled to death by a serial killer. Excited delirium, from its early beginnings, was a term used to misdiagnose the manual asphyxiation deaths of Black people on the margins of society. Despite being wrong, Wetli continued to use the term and soon expanded it to not only include people who used drugs, but also those who didn't. A thoughtful observer might notice that the set of people who don't use drugs and the set of people who do use drugs encompasses literally every person alive. Since then, it has been used as a catch-all for any 'mysterious' death that occurs after the police asphyxiate or beat the shit out of somebody, where it has consistently been disproportionately applied to Black people and other minorities. edit: Corrected Wetli's profession from "medical examiner" to "pathologist"
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Luther Bell's study is often cited as an early example of excited delirium, but that comparison does not hold up on closer examination. Bell's patients suffered their malady for days or even *weeks* before they died, while deaths attributed to excited delirium are generally very sudden. The link to Bell is simply used to give the perception that there is longstanding precedent for excited delirium as a medical condition, but it does not survive scrutiny. Bell's 1849 paper, appearing in the *American Journal of Insanity*, has perhaps my favorite title of any scientific article ever, by the way: >On a form of disease resembling some advanced stages of mania and fever, but so contradistinguished from any ordinarily observed or described combination of symptoms, as to render it probable that it may be an overlooked and hitherto unrecorded malady. That's not the abstract, it's the *article title*. Maybe doctors got paid by the word back then.
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The only major medical organization to *ever* support excited delirium, ACEP, did so in a white paper. White papers are not peer reviewed science, and ACEP later retracted the paper to boot. But I suppose they are the only unbiased source? While prestigious publications such as the [Virginia Law Review](https://virginialawreview.org/articles/excited-delirium-and-police-use-of-force/) or actual peer-reviewed medical journals such as The Lancet* or [Psychological Medicine](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9280280/pdf/S0033291722001076a.pdf) are simply written by journalists, activists, and redditors prone to outcome bias? The scientific literature on this subject is clear, and it consistently supports the arguments that I am making here. The fact that the scientific literature on this subject is clear is *why* I make the arguments I am making here. I think you should examine your own sources before you make accusations of bias against others. *https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(22)00410-X/fulltext
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The only major paper supporting excited delirium was not scientific, and it was later retracted. Why do you require a higher burden of proof to "debunk" a concept than you require to confirm it?
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The paper you linked is addressed in the [Psychology Today](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9280280/pdf/S0033291722001076a.pdf) review (McGuinnes and Lipsedge) I cited (and which you quickly dismissed and did not bother to read). >The lack of consensus was made clear by a systematic review of the medical literature on excited delirium conducted by a team of emergency physicians at Lausanne University Hospital (Gonin, Beysard, Yersin, & Carron, 2017, p. 552). Whilst the review did not question the validity of excited delirium as a real clinical entity, it was highly critical of 66 published studies because of their limited levels of evidence. Although the ACEP task force had recommended that a diagnosis of excited delirium be based upon evidence of perceived abnormal behaviour and at least six of their 10 potential clinical criteria for such a diagnosis (Vilke et al., 2012b, p. 900), the Lausanne review team found many patients to have been diagnosed with excited delirium des- pite presenting with fewer than six of these diagnostic features. The most common features – including claims of superhuman strength, bizarre behaviour and unusual pain tolerance – did not appear with equal frequency and appeared not to be manda- tory (Gonin et al., 2017, p. 561). The prevalence of excited delir- ium also appeared to ‘vary widely with context’. Whilst cases requiring out-of-hospital restraint were observed in fewer than two cases for 10 000 emergency calls for advanced life support, excited delirium was associated with more than 10% of deaths in police custody and said to represent more than 10% of CEW-related deaths By your paper's own criteria, almost every single paper they reviewed, they classified as either "low" or "very low" with regard to quality of evidence. None were ranked better than "moderate". Most were also considered "weak" which they describe as "studies with severe limitations." Expect that many of the dozens of articles you found on Google Scholar are these very same low-quality, weak papers, as described by your own cite. I genuinely appreciate that you are offering evidence for your assertions, but I do not think they make a very compelling case. If you're truly interested in this subject, I suggest giving the McGuinness paper above a more thorough browse. They make the case better than I ever could, and they use *extensive* citations to do so, should you wish to delve deeper. I believe their work goes a step beyond being the mere "opinion" piece you labeled it as.
This is you https://i.imgur.com/qkyJBOX.jpg
Should individuals granted exceptional privileges (state-sanctioned use of violence to force compliance) not be subject to exceptional scrutiny when things go bad?
It does not fucking exist. Learn to read for comprehension, fucks sake.
You are falling for the propaganda. The term was likely coined in order to conjure mental images of “super human strength” and whatnot, in order to bias against the victim. It’s actual application is as an after the fact medical diagnosis, meant to explain why someone who was in police custody, or having an encounter with the police, died. Do you see the difference?
Good riddance. A diagnosis of convenience for corrupt police officers — and corrupt, enabling medical examiners — to cover up deaths caused by police brutality. A diagnosis of “excited delirium” adds a large, almost insurmountable barrier to families seeking justice for their loved ones. It’s difficult enough to challenge a case of police brutality. It’s virtually impossible when a medical examiner “diagnoses” them with a medical condition and lists the manner of death as natural or accidental causes. IMO every single case that lists excited delirium as the cause of death needs to be reopened and reinvestigated. I don’t know how many of them would actually be prosecutable at this point, but these victims deserve the kind of proper investigation they obviously didn’t get the first time around.
Now they'll have to go back to "I was afraid for my life" as a justification for killing unarmed suspects in custody.
"Quick, Ned! Thin out their numbers!"
There are 3 cops on trial in Tacoma, WA right now for murdering a man named Manuel (Manny) Ellis in 2020 and they're trying to blame it on trashy excited delirium bullshit. In reality, they initiated contact and then beat, tased, choked, hogtied, spit-hooded, and knelt on him until he died. But they claim excited delirium due to meth intoxication. Fucking murdering pieces of shit. Hopefully they are convicted. Maybe they'll get the Chauvin treatment in prison.
But they still say “reefer madness”, right?
Those darn psychitic pot smokers!
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Behind the Bastards did a two parter on how cops invented this
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If you don’t think psychiatry is consulted for ED patients, then you’re an idiot.
Is not just the ACLU: "Excited delirium is not recognized by the World Health Organization, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Medical Association, and not listed as a medical condition in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders[3][42] or International Classification of Diseases" And even though the ACEP accepts that there is a thing with those symptoms, they have stopped using the term: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excited_delirium
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Good, it was yet another “kill anyone free” card
Hey in CO we were the first state to strike the slavery exception clause from our state constitution, once it was presented in plain language. Something that needs to happen to the US’ 13th amendment.
a guy I went to high school with had either a mental health episode or something drug-induced (although no known drugs were found in his system besides weed, I believe) and his parents called the cops to help because they didn't know what else to do. The cops showed up and tased him to death - repeatedly saying, "stop screaming" as he kept screaming and writhing while he was being tased. He didn't attack the cops or his family, he was just going through an intense mental episode and wouldn't "settle down." There's bodycam footage that was released that doesn't show much but you can hear him scream over and over while the cops just keep tasing him and yelling at him until he goes silent. Official cause of death was "excited delirium." One of the cops was put on administrative leave for a while but went back on the force eventually. He was my high school liaison, I remember him well. These cops didn't have stressful jobs. Our city had basically no violent crime. They were just trained to murder someone instead of helping them in situations like this.
Is drapetomania still in there?
Lots of alt right wingers in CO it’s no coincidence that a bunch of Christian organizations use it as a corporate HD.
yeah, it's weird, we're a blue state (now), but our right wing is basically a reich wing.
Since when can cops diagnose a medical condition?
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-one-excited-delirium-how-cops-81965684/
It needs to be removed at the county level, too. Additionally, CO has some of the worst police in the country. I saw what happened when a loved one needed medical attention and was taken to jail for 5 days instead.
There also needs to be serious retraining of current law enforcement - not just the newbies - so that they, too, cannot claim “excited delirium” in court and/or try to get grandfathered in.
Heat of the moment!
They used to call people witches when they acted like that but they eventually struck that too. 🙄
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Man you are sucking some serious ass. WTF is wrong with you?
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That is exactly what has been being explained to you this entire thread, and you continue not to learn.
There’s been exactly one commenter to explain that the current understanding of the pathophysiology has changed. I learned from him.
And yet you keep on harping on it like its fact. What is your real goal here? You want cops to have this excuse this bad?
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How about they call it what it is, they are in shock. Can you provide the training materials on how cops deal with these encounters because it seem that the response is always to subdue instead of applying medical treatment. When a term is used that implies that the suspect was combative instead of implying that the person was in a medical crisis, that is where shit goes sideways. Example “I was detaining a subject that was displaying signs of exited delirium and he died when we were placing him on handcuffs” sounds much different than “I was seating a subject that was in shock and he died when we were placing the handcuffs on him”.
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Or even better, the police should have immediate access to psychiatric professionals who know how to de-escalate and deal with someone in distress. Cops get trained to be hammers and to them everything is a nail that must be physically handled. And yeah, I’ve seen cops pull their guns out on a car accident victim saying “excited delirium”. When the person was clearly in shock and confused.
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Sure if they do in-fact have excited delirium, the problem is that cops are not qualified to determine if they are or not. There are also the numerous instances of cops being the cause of the distressing state or using it as an excuse for vile abuses. There is no good solution, other than to have psychiatric professionals that can respond to emergency calls. We have done this in Orlando and the pilot program was very successful. The fact is that cops no longer have the public’s trust and this is a result of the abuse they have demonstrated and this has been a tool that prevents accountability. Edit: the only solution I can think of is to have all cops with their cameras on at all times. That way a jury can determine if specific actions are justified.
Can they please get rid of Havana Syndrome next? Or what it should be better known as ‘US foreign workers finding half arsed excuses to retire with benefits and pay outs’.
"excited delirium” "Sir you need to calm down!" "The Denver Nuggets won the championship! Woooo!!" BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!
Good. Now they need to get it out of their heads that drugging people is also bad.
Elijah Mcclain would beg to differ, you absolute imbecile.
this is good, but colorado is one of those states with wacky mortuary laws, no?
Wacky mortuary laws?