I don’t understand how these clubs have buckets of professional doctors and physiotherapists underneath them and somehow the players are dropping like flies while training at their own facilities.
Manly greats have romanticised for years the old school style of their training facilities, it doesn’t surprise me one bit tbh. On the other hand, it’s really weird because every interview I’ve heard about Des and his time at the Dogs people always spoke about how into sport science he was and how far ahead of the time he was in those aspects.
apparently they made players practice kicking wear concrete boots, whilst other players had to charge them down, in a swamp, at midnight in the freezing cold whilst having eaten nothing but a jatz cracker for 3 days
This is what i always have said. Easy to say the game was tougher "back in the day" when "back in the day" they werent lifting half a car 600 times every weekend and having sport scientists freakishly optimise their performance.
No player back then would remotely stand a chance on the field today with the "back in my day" rules. Theyd actually get slaughtered.
Ronnie Palmer still had a job as a lead strength and conditioning trainer as recently as last year, and I remember people were outraged that he was let go.
A lot of clubs also have former players that are in charge of "effort areas" as well, which I assume involves a lot of old school fitness stuff
Same kinda blokes who don't realize the 80's were just a bunch of blokes having a crack, and not scientifically conditioned athletes getting pushed to be in the top 1% of human conditioning.
I went through RAN recruit school and my brother and one of my high school mates did army and I don't know of anything crazy like the movies show. They push you but don't put you deliberately at risk to make you tough.
I supported selection a couple of times, just driving safety vehicles and stuff like that, and the physical stuff is really safe. Plenty of knees and ankles get wrecked but if someone dropped from heat, the safety staff would be crucified.
This is also interesting from the article
Perrett revealed he’d been forced to pull out of the emerging Queensland Origin team in 2017, with the Manly club who sent him a breach notice.
You and me both. That's not a challenge, it's just plain dangerous. Athletes in team sports are often coerced into thinking about their team first, themselves second, and that's not healthy.
Yeah, I do not believe you can train to last longer without water, I do not believe that's how the body works. It sounds like some old crazy training idea that should have been killed off a long time ago.
I could see it being possible to be trained to better cope with it mentally over time. But to what end? They're playing footy for 80 minutes with a 10 minute break in the middle and access to water on the field via trainers plus interchanges for some positions. They're not marching in the Sahara for days on end. Where does the water restrictions come in to it? It's just bizarre to me. There's no logical explanation as to how this helps someone be a better athlete beyond a broad "toughening them up" which is not a valid excuse for putting players in harms way. The sports already dangerous enough without inventing new ways to potentially harm players.
All the talk of mental health is great but you can imagine the reasons why these players feel obliged to continue to the point of over exertion. Meanwhile when they play on the weekend the trainer is out with a water bottle every 2 minutes…
Oh, players are in a tough spot when training hard, I can see that, but putting them in dangerous situations is dumb and unnecessary. Hydration is critical and should be a non negotiable.
In the 70s when we trained they wouldn't let us have water because they said you don't get water in the game but that is not true anymore. And modern sports science tell you hydrating is essential. I can also tell you players these days train much much harder and much more frequently. We trained a couple of nights a week fitness and one night ball work. It wasn't as much aerobic or strength fitness as now it was more tackling technique and you copped a punch evey tackle so you trained for that. There just is no comparison between how fit and strong players are now but toughness was about getting wacked and carrying on
The players are also lugging much heavier rigs around. That extra weight requires extra effort to move and has implications for how efficiently the players can shed body heat.
The fact this (Allegedly) happened before Keith Titmuss death shows Manly learned absolutely nothing from this incident. Quite easily could've had 2 players die while training with them, although you'd imagine if Lloyd did die, something would've changed in the training regime.
come on all the article says they were running without water breaks (pretty common) says nothing on the weather that day, how long they were running for (distance and time) if perret showed any signs or symptoms of heat stroke other than fatigue from the run itself, if Perret raised concerns to trainers during the run. If he had any other contributing medical conditions (bad heart etc). what did perret engage in prior to the run. how were the other players physical reactions to the task. lets not jump at shadows and assume someone has opened themselves up to a law suit.
Work in any outdoor industry that involves being outside in hot conditions where it's appropriate for adequate hydration and there's an incident like this, you can guarantee it will be investigated by work health and safety. The article states he was denied water. What other workplace is this shit acceptable?
I work at woolworths in air conditioning and even they provide us with bottled water. There's no excuse for a professional sports team to deny a player water.
I half understand running without water.
But there's a limit
Sounds like they were made to run, and run, and run, and run, without any water. That's not right.
This is going to get worse until it gets better.
There are still too many people stuck in the 80s who believe in the school of having a teaspoon of cement making decisions. The world doesn’t work like that anymore.
This bloke actually sounds on the face of it to have a case. Denying water to any employee for any reason? That’s a paddlin’, let alone when the job involves sustained exercise.
I reckon the club is gonna lose this.Especially when a player has died in similar circumstances at the same club in the interim. Not giving guys water while flogging them in heat is very different to making someone wrestle the whole team.
I've come near heatstroke twice..I can tell you it does not make you tougher...In fact it noticeably makes you weaker and recovery time for other strenuous activities is noticeably longer..
The way I see it... make these fckwit trainers run till they collapse from heatstroke..Make sure they get the full experience, and I bet they'll never make another athlete do it again.
Back in my day we weren’t allowed to smoke durries on the training paddock and we couldn’t crack a beer until after we finished our session….U/14 was rough
They don’t even do this archaic shit in the military any more. Hope he sues Manly into bankruptcy and we can finally (hopefully!) get some ownership with brains back into this club. What a fucked thing to do to anyone, fuck these cunts.
I read the book of one of the first guys that was selected to be in Delta force and he said there is a fine line between hard arse and dumb arse. And this always seems to be the case when reading these things.
He mentions an exercise that the Rangers did where they went from hard arse to dumb arse and four of them died.
Good, and so he should. These guys are still employees, and more importantly people, and the teams have a duty of care to put their health and well being first. If the actions of the club contributed to or caused this he should absolutely be compensated.
Topine's was excessive also. Whilst I'm not opposed to it, the punishment was designed to mentally break the guy which is exactly what it done.
The trainer who oversaw (whilst verbally ridiculing also) needs to face the music for their choices.
It's not the physical drill that was the problem, it's how they went about it. Forming a circle around him, stopping players from supporting him, etc., causing him humiliation.
The severity and truth of the matter can be debated in court. We weren't there. But the basic claim is valid and well worthy of taking to court.
In whose brain could humiliation by teammates be considered a performance enhancer.
Attempts at humiliation (sledging) by opposing sides definitely can propel an athlete to higher effort...but not by teammates and coaches.
I'll be curious to hear witness testimony about the facts but I doubt it will go that far. If it does, it'll be multiple different recounts of the same event.
He wasn’t singled out, other players who were late had to do the same drills. This isn’t an office job, they’re literally wrestling for 80minutes on a field.
It's the mental health aspect I have a problem with, not the physical drill. How they stopped players from supporting him, forming a circle around him, the berating, etc.
What a shitty take. I support any footy players who don't want to be humiliated while they're working - for the sake of their mental wellbeing. It's completely unnecessary to form a circle around him and stopping players from supporting him. The fact that players wanted to support him shows that he was in need of it. And there's nothing wrong with team morale and support. It should be encouraged, not denied.
How was he humiliated, I can say I’m humiliated at work because people look at me funny. Doesn’t make it so, he’s in the wrong profession if he thinks wrestling is wrong. It’s like a boxer suing for getting punched in sparring.
To use your illustration...What if your boss, found your mental weakness and started to verbally humiliate you and got your fellow workers, which some were good mates to join in on the humiliation?
Would that make you more productive?
And it's not just the wrestling, it's also the humiliation that the trainer put him through and then doing the best to get teammates to follow through with it..
I'm sure plenty of guys could handle the humiliation, but plenty wouldn't. What I would like to know is how a trainer in his twisted mind could imagine how humiliation was going to propel Topine to higher performance and loyalty to the club.
If you rock up late that’s fine, happens all the time if you sleep in get shit put on you and have to work back. Don’t be late. This is a competitive sport by the way. If he’s too soft he shouldn’t be competing to begin with.
Alright you can think he's lying about being humiliated. That's what the court is for. They'll debate it based on the facts presented to them. My point is that 1) it's not about the physical wrestling, it's how they went about it that caused him humiliation, anxiety, etc., and 2) it's valid to go to court if you're being humiliated in your workplace.
Let the courts decide on its merits based on the facts presented to them.
Topines case is probably more than the wrestling and it won't go to trial. From similar ones I've seen they'll often get into the players while the punishment is on. If there was any verbal abuse that day at the dogs it would make it hard for the club to win I'd think
Bellamy has been running crazy training camps for years yet never has he ever had a complaint or an issue. What's up with all these other coaches doing this dangerous stuff?
Guys like Ballamy know where the line is...He's known to humiliate players, but he knows the individual players mind sets. It's why you never hear a negative whisper from ex-players about him.
Also, he's happy to take shit from the players. Ever seen the video where he's under a car trying to fix something and the players standing around making fun of him and just giving him shit?
Munster and Cheese took turns during covid-19 playing practical jokes on him, and when Welch was captain he was always giving Bellamy shit in the pressers.
I can see this guy getting millions..He will be paid millions for lost income and remember he was a potential Origin player...And it will open the flood gates. How many other cases are there?
I ran city to surf and collapsed at the end due to heat and lack of hydration. Woke up in first aid with a drip and a thermometer up my ass. Wasn't any lasting effects other than embarrassment.
While it sucks he collapsed and agree he was over worked, I wonder if he is making excuses for his poor performance post event. He was already let go from the doggies and was under performing. There wasn't any chance he would make origin and this event shows he's probably not cut out for it.
You say you had no lasting affect..What job do you do?
I've been near heatstroke twice as a rooftiler. I was super aware of hydration, particularly as I naturally (actually unnaturally) had low blood pressure and would lose my eyesight from lack of water.
I was certainly much older than this guy, however I could handle heat much better than any bloke I ever worked with....But after the near heatstroke incident, I could not handle the hot days anymore. Something had changed. But next I understood what was going on and quickly cooled myself.
If he was just an average player, why did they ask him to the emerging Origin squad?...Someone thought he had potential.
He played 13 first games that year and then 3 first grade games the following year including being used in the final series. He also did 32 games with Blacktown Workers. Sounds like he was physically ok to play.
He also got a train and trial offer from Broncos in 2020.
I thinks he's just an average footballer. You'd have to ask the Broncos why they didn't want to sign him.
I remember this when it happened, didn’t he have a study done that showed his usual core temperature was hotter than the average persons?
Like if he was denied water then he’s clearly got a case about that incident but already you have people trying to compare this to Keith Titmuss which had a whole new set of people involved, different coaches and high performance staff.
Whilst its clear Manly (and maybe other clubs) need to change their training regime, I wonder if these players are just using these excuses for their own perceived failures and not being able to make it further in NRL.
>Before he knew it, Perrett woke up in a hospital bed surrounded by doctors at 23-years of age and speaking to WWOS who let WWOS into the hospital
LMAO
I don’t understand how these clubs have buckets of professional doctors and physiotherapists underneath them and somehow the players are dropping like flies while training at their own facilities.
Manly greats have romanticised for years the old school style of their training facilities, it doesn’t surprise me one bit tbh. On the other hand, it’s really weird because every interview I’ve heard about Des and his time at the Dogs people always spoke about how into sport science he was and how far ahead of the time he was in those aspects.
My cousin played for him at the dogs and absolutely raved about him.
Calf blood is expensive. Really fucks the budget for facilities.
Because training is still run by the kind of blokes who talk whilstfully about how much tougher the game was in the 80s.
Yeah. Those guys are weird. The game was tougher in the 70s.
Wait until you hear about the 60s!
apparently they made players practice kicking wear concrete boots, whilst other players had to charge them down, in a swamp, at midnight in the freezing cold whilst having eaten nothing but a jatz cracker for 3 days
So you’ve been to Henson Park…
You had to kick wearing concrete boots?? We had to kicking using concrete balls!
Jatz cracker? Luxury!
:O
Fuck I'd love to see the guys from the 80s try and take down NAS or get plain stepped by AFB
Fuck that, let Taumalolo at any point of his career run it to them. I want to see it… for research
Time to let Taumalolo run at Parramatta legend Paul Kent
Renowned arborist Paul Kent?
Fucking Kenty, the comments just won't let up. I'm not disappointed about it though lol
They’d just stiff arm him across the face and the ref would call play on.
This is what i always have said. Easy to say the game was tougher "back in the day" when "back in the day" they werent lifting half a car 600 times every weekend and having sport scientists freakishly optimise their performance. No player back then would remotely stand a chance on the field today with the "back in my day" rules. Theyd actually get slaughtered.
Ronnie Palmer still had a job as a lead strength and conditioning trainer as recently as last year, and I remember people were outraged that he was let go. A lot of clubs also have former players that are in charge of "effort areas" as well, which I assume involves a lot of old school fitness stuff
I'm still waiting on a Billy Johnstone book. I've heard snippets of stories over the years
Same kinda blokes who don't realize the 80's were just a bunch of blokes having a crack, and not scientifically conditioned athletes getting pushed to be in the top 1% of human conditioning.
Some bush footy teams would compete with 80s nrl these days
Depends whether the ref is from 1980 or 2024. Players today might struggle to adjust to getting clotheslined from hell with a ref that calls play on.
Imagine how good the best players of the 80s would've been with full time professional training and modern "supplements".
>Something something army camp something awake for 48 hours somethBACK IN MY DAY -Like 50% of NRL trainers
Because morons still think torturing guys physically will make them tougher. The military abandoned it because it doesn't work.
Boot camp excluded?
I went through RAN recruit school and my brother and one of my high school mates did army and I don't know of anything crazy like the movies show. They push you but don't put you deliberately at risk to make you tough.
I suppose the better comparison here is 2nd commando regiment, SASR and not Kapooka.
I supported selection a couple of times, just driving safety vehicles and stuff like that, and the physical stuff is really safe. Plenty of knees and ankles get wrecked but if someone dropped from heat, the safety staff would be crucified.
Yeah they probably get a lot more nuts.
They get tortured for 1-2 days, lets not go overboard lol
Yeah it's how Manly were doing it that was causing issues. They had one go to hospital and another die.
This is also interesting from the article Perrett revealed he’d been forced to pull out of the emerging Queensland Origin team in 2017, with the Manly club who sent him a breach notice.
I thought the NRL made them put in clauses to stop that? Because Origin is so important to the NRL.
#
If I were forced to run without water I simply would have got my car keys and went home, maybe that’s why I’m not a professional athlete.
You and me both. That's not a challenge, it's just plain dangerous. Athletes in team sports are often coerced into thinking about their team first, themselves second, and that's not healthy.
and weird thinking - let them have water so they can train the cardio more - thats the goal, better cardio not a better ability to last without water.
Yeah, I do not believe you can train to last longer without water, I do not believe that's how the body works. It sounds like some old crazy training idea that should have been killed off a long time ago.
I could see it being possible to be trained to better cope with it mentally over time. But to what end? They're playing footy for 80 minutes with a 10 minute break in the middle and access to water on the field via trainers plus interchanges for some positions. They're not marching in the Sahara for days on end. Where does the water restrictions come in to it? It's just bizarre to me. There's no logical explanation as to how this helps someone be a better athlete beyond a broad "toughening them up" which is not a valid excuse for putting players in harms way. The sports already dangerous enough without inventing new ways to potentially harm players.
yep agree
All the talk of mental health is great but you can imagine the reasons why these players feel obliged to continue to the point of over exertion. Meanwhile when they play on the weekend the trainer is out with a water bottle every 2 minutes…
Oh, players are in a tough spot when training hard, I can see that, but putting them in dangerous situations is dumb and unnecessary. Hydration is critical and should be a non negotiable.
It's not worth injury or worse for money
In the 70s when we trained they wouldn't let us have water because they said you don't get water in the game but that is not true anymore. And modern sports science tell you hydrating is essential. I can also tell you players these days train much much harder and much more frequently. We trained a couple of nights a week fitness and one night ball work. It wasn't as much aerobic or strength fitness as now it was more tackling technique and you copped a punch evey tackle so you trained for that. There just is no comparison between how fit and strong players are now but toughness was about getting wacked and carrying on
The players are also lugging much heavier rigs around. That extra weight requires extra effort to move and has implications for how efficiently the players can shed body heat.
The fact this (Allegedly) happened before Keith Titmuss death shows Manly learned absolutely nothing from this incident. Quite easily could've had 2 players die while training with them, although you'd imagine if Lloyd did die, something would've changed in the training regime.
How there wasn't a thorough independent investigation into the teams training practices following that I'll never understand.
come on all the article says they were running without water breaks (pretty common) says nothing on the weather that day, how long they were running for (distance and time) if perret showed any signs or symptoms of heat stroke other than fatigue from the run itself, if Perret raised concerns to trainers during the run. If he had any other contributing medical conditions (bad heart etc). what did perret engage in prior to the run. how were the other players physical reactions to the task. lets not jump at shadows and assume someone has opened themselves up to a law suit.
Work in any outdoor industry that involves being outside in hot conditions where it's appropriate for adequate hydration and there's an incident like this, you can guarantee it will be investigated by work health and safety. The article states he was denied water. What other workplace is this shit acceptable?
I work at woolworths in air conditioning and even they provide us with bottled water. There's no excuse for a professional sports team to deny a player water.
I half understand running without water. But there's a limit Sounds like they were made to run, and run, and run, and run, without any water. That's not right.
It doesn't matter manly have a duty of care to their players, if any normal employer denied water to their employees they'd be obliterated
This is going to get worse until it gets better. There are still too many people stuck in the 80s who believe in the school of having a teaspoon of cement making decisions. The world doesn’t work like that anymore.
This bloke actually sounds on the face of it to have a case. Denying water to any employee for any reason? That’s a paddlin’, let alone when the job involves sustained exercise.
Especially when it gets that bad he is hospitalised.
I reckon the club is gonna lose this.Especially when a player has died in similar circumstances at the same club in the interim. Not giving guys water while flogging them in heat is very different to making someone wrestle the whole team.
I've come near heatstroke twice..I can tell you it does not make you tougher...In fact it noticeably makes you weaker and recovery time for other strenuous activities is noticeably longer.. The way I see it... make these fckwit trainers run till they collapse from heatstroke..Make sure they get the full experience, and I bet they'll never make another athlete do it again.
Back in my day we weren’t allowed to smoke durries on the training paddock and we couldn’t crack a beer until after we finished our session….U/14 was rough
They don’t even do this archaic shit in the military any more. Hope he sues Manly into bankruptcy and we can finally (hopefully!) get some ownership with brains back into this club. What a fucked thing to do to anyone, fuck these cunts.
I read the book of one of the first guys that was selected to be in Delta force and he said there is a fine line between hard arse and dumb arse. And this always seems to be the case when reading these things. He mentions an exercise that the Rangers did where they went from hard arse to dumb arse and four of them died.
Looks like manly is really trying to run their workforce into the ground
Back in my day i went without water for a whole week. pepsi max however
Do these players not know what fish do in this precious water of theres?
Good, and so he should. These guys are still employees, and more importantly people, and the teams have a duty of care to put their health and well being first. If the actions of the club contributed to or caused this he should absolutely be compensated.
This sounds like he might have a valid case unlike Topine's. Also, the journo that wrote this article needs a kick up the arse...
Topine's was excessive also. Whilst I'm not opposed to it, the punishment was designed to mentally break the guy which is exactly what it done. The trainer who oversaw (whilst verbally ridiculing also) needs to face the music for their choices.
Yup, this one I can see being an issue, Topines case shouldn’t even be in court.
Both cases I support. Fuck work place bullying.
One act of being asked to perform a drill is not bullying.
It's not the physical drill that was the problem, it's how they went about it. Forming a circle around him, stopping players from supporting him, etc., causing him humiliation. The severity and truth of the matter can be debated in court. We weren't there. But the basic claim is valid and well worthy of taking to court.
Bingo. In a regular sharkbait drill the rest of the team usually is encouraged to cheer the bloke in the middle on as part of player bonding.
In whose brain could humiliation by teammates be considered a performance enhancer. Attempts at humiliation (sledging) by opposing sides definitely can propel an athlete to higher effort...but not by teammates and coaches.
I'll be curious to hear witness testimony about the facts but I doubt it will go that far. If it does, it'll be multiple different recounts of the same event.
He wasn’t singled out, other players who were late had to do the same drills. This isn’t an office job, they’re literally wrestling for 80minutes on a field.
It's the mental health aspect I have a problem with, not the physical drill. How they stopped players from supporting him, forming a circle around him, the berating, etc.
That’s a night out at the pub for a football team.
What a shitty take. I support any footy players who don't want to be humiliated while they're working - for the sake of their mental wellbeing. It's completely unnecessary to form a circle around him and stopping players from supporting him. The fact that players wanted to support him shows that he was in need of it. And there's nothing wrong with team morale and support. It should be encouraged, not denied.
How was he humiliated, I can say I’m humiliated at work because people look at me funny. Doesn’t make it so, he’s in the wrong profession if he thinks wrestling is wrong. It’s like a boxer suing for getting punched in sparring.
To use your illustration...What if your boss, found your mental weakness and started to verbally humiliate you and got your fellow workers, which some were good mates to join in on the humiliation? Would that make you more productive? And it's not just the wrestling, it's also the humiliation that the trainer put him through and then doing the best to get teammates to follow through with it.. I'm sure plenty of guys could handle the humiliation, but plenty wouldn't. What I would like to know is how a trainer in his twisted mind could imagine how humiliation was going to propel Topine to higher performance and loyalty to the club.
If you rock up late that’s fine, happens all the time if you sleep in get shit put on you and have to work back. Don’t be late. This is a competitive sport by the way. If he’s too soft he shouldn’t be competing to begin with.
Alright you can think he's lying about being humiliated. That's what the court is for. They'll debate it based on the facts presented to them. My point is that 1) it's not about the physical wrestling, it's how they went about it that caused him humiliation, anxiety, etc., and 2) it's valid to go to court if you're being humiliated in your workplace. Let the courts decide on its merits based on the facts presented to them.
Would you want to be competing with a teammate that mentally weak? Imagine a team of 17 Jackson Topines.
Topines case is probably more than the wrestling and it won't go to trial. From similar ones I've seen they'll often get into the players while the punishment is on. If there was any verbal abuse that day at the dogs it would make it hard for the club to win I'd think
Bush lawyer central
Good on him. The spectre of financial consequences is all that will motivate these buffoons into making a change.
Bellamy has been running crazy training camps for years yet never has he ever had a complaint or an issue. What's up with all these other coaches doing this dangerous stuff?
Guys like Ballamy know where the line is...He's known to humiliate players, but he knows the individual players mind sets. It's why you never hear a negative whisper from ex-players about him. Also, he's happy to take shit from the players. Ever seen the video where he's under a car trying to fix something and the players standing around making fun of him and just giving him shit?
Munster and Cheese took turns during covid-19 playing practical jokes on him, and when Welch was captain he was always giving Bellamy shit in the pressers.
Except for players like Matt Lodge who wanted ti fight him and left.
Ah yes, Matt Lodge starting a fight. That's the bar for when you know something has been taken too far... 🙄
damn this shit getting real
I can see this guy getting millions..He will be paid millions for lost income and remember he was a potential Origin player...And it will open the flood gates. How many other cases are there?
I ran city to surf and collapsed at the end due to heat and lack of hydration. Woke up in first aid with a drip and a thermometer up my ass. Wasn't any lasting effects other than embarrassment. While it sucks he collapsed and agree he was over worked, I wonder if he is making excuses for his poor performance post event. He was already let go from the doggies and was under performing. There wasn't any chance he would make origin and this event shows he's probably not cut out for it.
You say you had no lasting affect..What job do you do? I've been near heatstroke twice as a rooftiler. I was super aware of hydration, particularly as I naturally (actually unnaturally) had low blood pressure and would lose my eyesight from lack of water. I was certainly much older than this guy, however I could handle heat much better than any bloke I ever worked with....But after the near heatstroke incident, I could not handle the hot days anymore. Something had changed. But next I understood what was going on and quickly cooled myself. If he was just an average player, why did they ask him to the emerging Origin squad?...Someone thought he had potential.
He played 13 first games that year and then 3 first grade games the following year including being used in the final series. He also did 32 games with Blacktown Workers. Sounds like he was physically ok to play. He also got a train and trial offer from Broncos in 2020. I thinks he's just an average footballer. You'd have to ask the Broncos why they didn't want to sign him.
I remember this when it happened, didn’t he have a study done that showed his usual core temperature was hotter than the average persons? Like if he was denied water then he’s clearly got a case about that incident but already you have people trying to compare this to Keith Titmuss which had a whole new set of people involved, different coaches and high performance staff.
That Topine stuff will open the flood gates
Tbh it should.
Lick road clean with tongue
Whilst its clear Manly (and maybe other clubs) need to change their training regime, I wonder if these players are just using these excuses for their own perceived failures and not being able to make it further in NRL.