I think he is just putting on a show and this likely will get shot down pretty quick. I moved here a year ago and I thought Montana was backwards politically, as a few years ago it was a more purple state. I regret bringing my kids into this mess. By the time they are in 5th grade hopefully we will be long gone.
I am referring to the states Supreme Court, they are obviously conservative but in recent rulings have seemed more logical in their decision making than I would expect for this state.
I just moved from Montana and have been to a few places in Canada. It is very cool and beautiful but I don’t want to deal with the cold on that level anymore lol
Both Canadian coasts have much more temperate weather, esp BC. The BC coast has a similar climate to coastal Japan. The ocean and islands and mountains are more beautiful than New Zealand. Plus there is Vancouver which is an incredible city. No winter there.
Thats fair. My first duty station in the army was near Tacoma. I really loved the PNW. I know Vancouver housing is supposed to be insanely expensive but I could definitely do that weather.
While that may be true, state Supreme Court decisions can be appealed to the Supreme Court. They could just refuse to hear it, but they have taken some unusual cases and made some awful rulings. So I never know what to expect.
It *can* be appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court but it's doubtful the U.S. Supreme Court would take up or overrule the State Supreme Court if it's a matter of State law and not Federal law.
The State Supreme Court isn't likely to rule on the constitutionality of Walters directive in terms of the U.S. Constitution and will likely instead overturn it based on Section 2 Article 5 of the Oklahoma Constitution, instead.
I'm very much hoping so! for him just showing off, and for you and your children to have a better life. I'm worried some teachers may choose to cling to this and teach it anyway or bully kids into it. I've had many teachers in this state be that way.
I guess that makes sense. I didn’t even think about how living here and being agnostic would affect my kids in school in that way. I had lived away from the south for so long I forgot how backwards this place is.
Yeah, I have been in Oklahoma most of my life. But when I was younger, we were still in the top 20 states for education and still had some democrats in political offices.
Oklahoma has always had its problems, but the people in charge seem intent on actively making things worse.
It’s the favorite move of local conservative leadership to pass completely unconstitutional laws, defend them at length in court, and appeal all the way up as far as possible. It’s always a massive waste of money but they’ve already done as much damage to every local institution they can so theatrics is all they have left to offer their base.
I'm fairly confident he wants low attendance so he can start closing schools. It's why he keeps harassing teachers and school admins. Imo, if he somehow manages to enforce this, the best way to combat his nonsense is to practice some malicious compliance.
That "genitals like a donkey" line gets a lot of play. Imagine your kid coming home to ask about the very in depth rules for how to treat your Jewish and non-jewish slaves.
I personally like the section about the prophet calling bears out of the woods to tear a bunch of kids to pieces because they called him "bald."
2 Kings 2: 23-24
Get involved with the school as much as possible so you can get a feel for how the administration and teachers really feel about it. Suggest lesson plans that examine the Bible in terms of civic duties, immigration, biology, sexual education, social studies, history, literature, etc. Imagine how surprised they'll be when the kids start supporting social programs and learning about how Nazis rewrote the Bible to create an Aryan Jesus and how the Bible has changed over the years based on who was writing it.
If you have kids.
Explain to your kids why our founders felt separation of church and state was so important. Teach them it's okay to question believers. If their faith is so fragile that it can not stand up to any kind of scrutiny, they deserve how uncomfortable it makes them. Let your kids know you'll back them with teachers/admins who don't like being questioned.
More than anything, love your kids, and teach them to take care of their peers because this isn't going to stop anytime soon, I'm afraid.
Hey there. Plans for malicious compliance can be made after the final rules are in place. I need to look at exactly how it's written. I was a teacher and my brother is a lawyer, and another brother is in a strong teachers union in another state. That being said between us all, we will look at just how things can be done legally for both teachers and students. This is going to backfire.
I'm selling shirts with his face on it with dirty stuff from the Bible. It will be interesting to see if you can be suspended for wearing a shirt with the phrase "She lusted after their lovers, whose genitals were like that of donkeys and emissions like that of a horse". I mean that's OK with the superintendent. ..
Maybe things have changed since I was in school but I wasn't religious in high school and really didn't consider myself a christian. There was no way in hell I was going to let that be known and subject myself to the bullying. Hell, our football coach would make us gather after practice to recite the christian "Lord's Prayer" bs and I participated. If I hadn't, who knows what he would have done.
What I am saying is that the administration won't have to punish the kids for not participating. The bullies will do that for them.
Ugh I feel this! Rural OK is a bitch for anyone that’s even a little different. Let alone really fucking different. I lived on a Navajo reservation in NM until I was 12. My step dad taught there (I’m white). I never felt like I didn’t fit in until I moved here. The white, christian kids (a group I technically belong to except my Christianity was Catholic) were the meanest, most judgmental jackasses ever. I got picked on for all the time. Thank god for the black kids that were willing to talk to me and actually get to know me. They made me feel like I had a place I could fit in
I definitely get this kind of situation. I am aware that people have all kinds of different circumstances that inhibit the ability to protest outright. I've had my fair share and more of bullying, especially when I was younger (albeit different reasons). current me holds many punk beliefs and with that comes with many grievances, so I can understand and don't balme how a person wouldn't be willing to make themselves a target.
Yep, I was already bullied because some people thought I might be gay (a huge no-no in rural OK in the 90s). There was no way I was going to say "No, I am not a christian." Dealing with the kids would have been bad enough but I would've also had to deal with the teachers and my parents.
I wish I had my current maturity then because I would have not denied the gay accusations. I'm straight but I hate to think that there were gay kids in my school watching me get bullied, me deny it, and knowing they could never be themselves in that area.
This was my thought. Kids can get bullied or ostracized if not part of popular religion. And it can pop up in unexpected places even if not meant to (showing famous landmarks and one's christian based and not familiar with it so student feels akward not knowing it). Now that it's being forced more in the open would be even worse.
My kid got harassed for not knowing christ redeemer/Rio de Janeiro. Get it's a landmark. But he was then harassed for not being a Christian (reason he didn't know statue was jesus).
So now kids not Christian will be harassed for not knowing Walters bible.
There's a reason he issued this memo while school is out. He knows it will be shot down. He's doing it for attention.
We need someone who will address the real problems our school system has instead of playing games with our money.
We need consequences for people who abuse their position and focus on attention instead of doing their job.
I feel like a blatant decree to ignore the first amendment from a government official should be immediate grounds to lose their job.
I wish I could afford to live out of state. I've lived in Oklahoma my entire life, but this new christofascism has me worried about my family and our safety.
you, me, and many others friend. I wish louisiana were better bc I love my home. but unfortunately neither here nor there is accepting to those who are different. I'm sure it will be boths downfall.
I mean if someone can refuse to wear a mask because it’s against their personal beliefs….
The main problem is who is actually going to uphold the law? We all know this is unconstitutional but nobody in power right now gives a shit. It’s a terrifying thought. The same people that have been screaming about Muslims wanting to force people to live under sharia law (not sure on the spelling 🤦🏻♀️) now want everyone to live under THEIR Christian laws/rules. Good news is they keep people so uneducated in this state that people don’t recognize hypocrisy
amazing point. use their own arguements against them. there are many teachers I know that have quit, and ones I know will if nothing is done to prevent this bs in schools. the kids at the hs I went to often couldn't read past a 4th-6th grade level. they didn't have any known learning disabilities. the teachers gave up eventually. nobody in power cares and it's so discouraging. I know kids aren't taking school as serious bc they feel their diploma from Oklahoma won't matter anymore
Gov. Stitt if he wants to lead on the issue could say Walters memo does not have the force of law and not needed since Oklahoma already gives teachers the option not the requirement to teach from the bible, while allowing the presence of the bible at school.
And Walters, the troll, will create another car video and go on Fox decrying “woke teacher’s unions” and pornography in schools, neither of which are an actual thing in Oklahoma.
I read a day or two ago that Walters has said outright that it is his intention to get this stuff before the Supreme Court because he fervently believes they will rule in his favor.
I already told my kids they don't have to do it and if they are coerced into doing it let me know. I believe in freedom of choice and if my kids ever wanna learn about the Bible which is fine we will go to church but I was forced when I was a kid so that decision is on them.
I encourage you to educate your kids on the true meaning! many people believe that it's a satanic symbol when it is not. that way your kids can tell the other kids then it could be more widely known amongst that group, they may even join in! :)
You’re going to get your kids bullied just to stick it to the man? That’s wild I agree this is insane, but to get your kid bullied over politics is just as insane.
This is very likely going to get litigated and eventually struck down, and he knows it every well. He is just doing it for publicity and also to use as a dog whistle later on. He will have something to go around saying, I tried to put the bible back in schools, and the "woke mob" didn't let me!
I would hope so. But if it's anything like the small town I grew up in, there will be social consequences. If you didn't attend Young Life or that stupid flag pole prayer thing or the right Christian summer camps, didn't go to the right churches, you were often left out of a lot of high school things. And yes, those kids even got favorable treatment from the teachers, who often led those events.
It's the "othering" that hurts, especially when you're a vulnerable teen. So many will likely comply.
The new generations are different, so if there are enough of them, maybe they'll opt out.
I took some parenting classes put on by a religious group, and they would send us with religious writing prompts as homework. I would always begin by saying, "This isn't my religion, but these are my thoughts on the subject..." I would encourage kids to do the same in the classroom.
We did lords prayer and story of jeezus birth play in 1985. They said f sep of chirch and state. They didn't care about a constitution then. They just violated our rights by forced prayer in duncan Oklahoma.
I believe you easily could on grounds of it being against your family's religion. I feel like it would be hard to shoot down, because the same laws also protect Christians who refuse to do stuff based on their religious freedoms, as they are wont to do.
Yes they can. I had to argue my rights with police officers when I was in 8th grade and it was my knowledge of the US constitution that allowed me to be able to do that but it takes the adults to actually create safe environments and to push back and hold the other adults accountable for their abuse.
Thankfully, my kids are grown and won't have to deal with this blatant pissing on the Constitution move, resident ass clown, Walters has made. However, if they *were* still in school, I would let the school staff know that when the indoctrination book of fairy tales is read, my kids are to be sent to the library or a breakout independent study room, otherwise, they run the risk of the school being sued for forcing their idiotic christian beliefs on my kids.
Fuck Walters. Fuck Stitt. And, Fuck Religion.
We don’t even have time to already teach all the required standards and “get kids caught up” in elementary school. Even if this were a real expectation, it likely wouldn’t get done in most classrooms unless it’s added to state testing. We are struggling to get all kids reading by the time they go to middle school. I teach in a more liberal area of the state (keep that in mind) but even my most hard core Christian teacher friends have no intention of teaching the Bible in school. Is he going to revoke everyone’s teaching license?
Certainty. As long as it is okay for kids to refuse in any other thing that is taught.
If you are uncomfortable with the Bible, I don't have any issues with that.
I'm uncomfortable with Gender Studies in the classroom, are there any issues with not wanting my child to study that ?
The Parental Bill of Rights would allow them to opt out, IMO. [https://law.justia.com/codes/oklahoma/title-25/section-25-2002/](https://law.justia.com/codes/oklahoma/title-25/section-25-2002/)
I think he is just putting on a show and this likely will get shot down pretty quick. I moved here a year ago and I thought Montana was backwards politically, as a few years ago it was a more purple state. I regret bringing my kids into this mess. By the time they are in 5th grade hopefully we will be long gone.
I’m not sure about that - as much as we wish this would get “shot down” we have to consider the Supreme Court justices.
I am referring to the states Supreme Court, they are obviously conservative but in recent rulings have seemed more logical in their decision making than I would expect for this state.
Let’s hope so. I share the same sentiment but my hope dwindles with each passing day. ETA: have lived here my whole life.
I have been trying to convince my wife to jump off the sinking ship that is this country and move to Europe lol
Felt. Something’s gotta give.
You could try Canada
I just moved from Montana and have been to a few places in Canada. It is very cool and beautiful but I don’t want to deal with the cold on that level anymore lol
Both Canadian coasts have much more temperate weather, esp BC. The BC coast has a similar climate to coastal Japan. The ocean and islands and mountains are more beautiful than New Zealand. Plus there is Vancouver which is an incredible city. No winter there.
Thats fair. My first duty station in the army was near Tacoma. I really loved the PNW. I know Vancouver housing is supposed to be insanely expensive but I could definitely do that weather.
If you love rain and the outdoors walking endless beaches northern Vancouver Island is less expensive.
While that may be true, state Supreme Court decisions can be appealed to the Supreme Court. They could just refuse to hear it, but they have taken some unusual cases and made some awful rulings. So I never know what to expect.
It *can* be appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court but it's doubtful the U.S. Supreme Court would take up or overrule the State Supreme Court if it's a matter of State law and not Federal law. The State Supreme Court isn't likely to rule on the constitutionality of Walters directive in terms of the U.S. Constitution and will likely instead overturn it based on Section 2 Article 5 of the Oklahoma Constitution, instead.
OK Supreme Court has made some surprisingly sane/rational decisions of late. The whole religious charter school case, for instance.
I'm very much hoping so! for him just showing off, and for you and your children to have a better life. I'm worried some teachers may choose to cling to this and teach it anyway or bully kids into it. I've had many teachers in this state be that way.
I guess that makes sense. I didn’t even think about how living here and being agnostic would affect my kids in school in that way. I had lived away from the south for so long I forgot how backwards this place is.
Yeah, I have been in Oklahoma most of my life. But when I was younger, we were still in the top 20 states for education and still had some democrats in political offices. Oklahoma has always had its problems, but the people in charge seem intent on actively making things worse.
It didn't use to be this way. It has drastically changed for the worse in the past twenty years.
It’s the favorite move of local conservative leadership to pass completely unconstitutional laws, defend them at length in court, and appeal all the way up as far as possible. It’s always a massive waste of money but they’ve already done as much damage to every local institution they can so theatrics is all they have left to offer their base.
I'm fairly confident he wants low attendance so he can start closing schools. It's why he keeps harassing teachers and school admins. Imo, if he somehow manages to enforce this, the best way to combat his nonsense is to practice some malicious compliance.
you have a great point. his main reason for doing the shit he does is exactly as you said. what specific ways could we comply maliciously?
[удалено]
That "genitals like a donkey" line gets a lot of play. Imagine your kid coming home to ask about the very in depth rules for how to treat your Jewish and non-jewish slaves.
I personally like the section about the prophet calling bears out of the woods to tear a bunch of kids to pieces because they called him "bald." 2 Kings 2: 23-24
High school biology?
Get involved with the school as much as possible so you can get a feel for how the administration and teachers really feel about it. Suggest lesson plans that examine the Bible in terms of civic duties, immigration, biology, sexual education, social studies, history, literature, etc. Imagine how surprised they'll be when the kids start supporting social programs and learning about how Nazis rewrote the Bible to create an Aryan Jesus and how the Bible has changed over the years based on who was writing it. If you have kids. Explain to your kids why our founders felt separation of church and state was so important. Teach them it's okay to question believers. If their faith is so fragile that it can not stand up to any kind of scrutiny, they deserve how uncomfortable it makes them. Let your kids know you'll back them with teachers/admins who don't like being questioned. More than anything, love your kids, and teach them to take care of their peers because this isn't going to stop anytime soon, I'm afraid.
Hey there. Plans for malicious compliance can be made after the final rules are in place. I need to look at exactly how it's written. I was a teacher and my brother is a lawyer, and another brother is in a strong teachers union in another state. That being said between us all, we will look at just how things can be done legally for both teachers and students. This is going to backfire.
Keep us posted!
Yes, please do.
I'm selling shirts with his face on it with dirty stuff from the Bible. It will be interesting to see if you can be suspended for wearing a shirt with the phrase "She lusted after their lovers, whose genitals were like that of donkeys and emissions like that of a horse". I mean that's OK with the superintendent. ..
Maybe things have changed since I was in school but I wasn't religious in high school and really didn't consider myself a christian. There was no way in hell I was going to let that be known and subject myself to the bullying. Hell, our football coach would make us gather after practice to recite the christian "Lord's Prayer" bs and I participated. If I hadn't, who knows what he would have done. What I am saying is that the administration won't have to punish the kids for not participating. The bullies will do that for them.
Ugh I feel this! Rural OK is a bitch for anyone that’s even a little different. Let alone really fucking different. I lived on a Navajo reservation in NM until I was 12. My step dad taught there (I’m white). I never felt like I didn’t fit in until I moved here. The white, christian kids (a group I technically belong to except my Christianity was Catholic) were the meanest, most judgmental jackasses ever. I got picked on for all the time. Thank god for the black kids that were willing to talk to me and actually get to know me. They made me feel like I had a place I could fit in
>Rural OK Which is, unfortunately, a huge portion of the state.
Yeah. Like 90%. So depressing
I definitely get this kind of situation. I am aware that people have all kinds of different circumstances that inhibit the ability to protest outright. I've had my fair share and more of bullying, especially when I was younger (albeit different reasons). current me holds many punk beliefs and with that comes with many grievances, so I can understand and don't balme how a person wouldn't be willing to make themselves a target.
Yep, I was already bullied because some people thought I might be gay (a huge no-no in rural OK in the 90s). There was no way I was going to say "No, I am not a christian." Dealing with the kids would have been bad enough but I would've also had to deal with the teachers and my parents. I wish I had my current maturity then because I would have not denied the gay accusations. I'm straight but I hate to think that there were gay kids in my school watching me get bullied, me deny it, and knowing they could never be themselves in that area.
This was my thought. Kids can get bullied or ostracized if not part of popular religion. And it can pop up in unexpected places even if not meant to (showing famous landmarks and one's christian based and not familiar with it so student feels akward not knowing it). Now that it's being forced more in the open would be even worse.
What?
My kid got harassed for not knowing christ redeemer/Rio de Janeiro. Get it's a landmark. But he was then harassed for not being a Christian (reason he didn't know statue was jesus). So now kids not Christian will be harassed for not knowing Walters bible.
Gotcha. I was really confused thinking Christians were hiding landmarks from their children or something!
Hell, this is how I feel daily at work now.
That doesn't surprise me at all here.
There's a reason he issued this memo while school is out. He knows it will be shot down. He's doing it for attention. We need someone who will address the real problems our school system has instead of playing games with our money.
We need consequences for people who abuse their position and focus on attention instead of doing their job. I feel like a blatant decree to ignore the first amendment from a government official should be immediate grounds to lose their job.
So all teachers have to completely re-write lesson plans during summer break? Way to go, dude.
I wish I could afford to live out of state. I've lived in Oklahoma my entire life, but this new christofascism has me worried about my family and our safety.
you, me, and many others friend. I wish louisiana were better bc I love my home. but unfortunately neither here nor there is accepting to those who are different. I'm sure it will be boths downfall.
I feel like I need to move as well. My daughter is almost old enough for school, and I have zero confidence in the school system in this state.
I mean if someone can refuse to wear a mask because it’s against their personal beliefs…. The main problem is who is actually going to uphold the law? We all know this is unconstitutional but nobody in power right now gives a shit. It’s a terrifying thought. The same people that have been screaming about Muslims wanting to force people to live under sharia law (not sure on the spelling 🤦🏻♀️) now want everyone to live under THEIR Christian laws/rules. Good news is they keep people so uneducated in this state that people don’t recognize hypocrisy
amazing point. use their own arguements against them. there are many teachers I know that have quit, and ones I know will if nothing is done to prevent this bs in schools. the kids at the hs I went to often couldn't read past a 4th-6th grade level. they didn't have any known learning disabilities. the teachers gave up eventually. nobody in power cares and it's so discouraging. I know kids aren't taking school as serious bc they feel their diploma from Oklahoma won't matter anymore
The ACLU will probably shut this down before school starts.
I hope you are right.
Gov. Stitt if he wants to lead on the issue could say Walters memo does not have the force of law and not needed since Oklahoma already gives teachers the option not the requirement to teach from the bible, while allowing the presence of the bible at school.
And Walters, the troll, will create another car video and go on Fox decrying “woke teacher’s unions” and pornography in schools, neither of which are an actual thing in Oklahoma.
School children can not be forced to say the pledge of allegiance since a 1947 SCOTUS decession. No way can a school or teacher punish non compliance
Precedent does not matter to the current SCOTUS. They'll overturn that decision in a heartbeat
I read a day or two ago that Walters has said outright that it is his intention to get this stuff before the Supreme Court because he fervently believes they will rule in his favor.
https://preview.redd.it/nfgqwwc6qx9d1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e8a9f87310c28b73088f95998ecb6ad4dae98736
1943 West Va. Board of Education v. Barnette
I already told my kids they don't have to do it and if they are coerced into doing it let me know. I believe in freedom of choice and if my kids ever wanna learn about the Bible which is fine we will go to church but I was forced when I was a kid so that decision is on them.
Yep. Just get up, go to the office, and call me. I have been ready my whole life to be extremely annoying about this. It would be my honor. Lol.
We need to bring to the attention of the Supreme Court, get Religious exempts, I'm planning on buying my kids pentacles to wear to school.
I encourage you to educate your kids on the true meaning! many people believe that it's a satanic symbol when it is not. that way your kids can tell the other kids then it could be more widely known amongst that group, they may even join in! :)
You’re going to get your kids bullied just to stick it to the man? That’s wild I agree this is insane, but to get your kid bullied over politics is just as insane.
Ask the wonderful people on the atheist reddit. They always have good ideas. They can give you very good suggestions on which buybull verses to use.
No guidance has been issued, no materials ordered, no trainings have been scheduled. Everyone knows it will crash and burn. 🔥
This is very likely going to get litigated and eventually struck down, and he knows it every well. He is just doing it for publicity and also to use as a dog whistle later on. He will have something to go around saying, I tried to put the bible back in schools, and the "woke mob" didn't let me!
He wants to close the public schools down, I am guessing this will do it.
I would hope so. But if it's anything like the small town I grew up in, there will be social consequences. If you didn't attend Young Life or that stupid flag pole prayer thing or the right Christian summer camps, didn't go to the right churches, you were often left out of a lot of high school things. And yes, those kids even got favorable treatment from the teachers, who often led those events. It's the "othering" that hurts, especially when you're a vulnerable teen. So many will likely comply. The new generations are different, so if there are enough of them, maybe they'll opt out.
I took some parenting classes put on by a religious group, and they would send us with religious writing prompts as homework. I would always begin by saying, "This isn't my religion, but these are my thoughts on the subject..." I would encourage kids to do the same in the classroom.
We did lords prayer and story of jeezus birth play in 1985. They said f sep of chirch and state. They didn't care about a constitution then. They just violated our rights by forced prayer in duncan Oklahoma.
I believe you easily could on grounds of it being against your family's religion. I feel like it would be hard to shoot down, because the same laws also protect Christians who refuse to do stuff based on their religious freedoms, as they are wont to do.
Yes they can. I had to argue my rights with police officers when I was in 8th grade and it was my knowledge of the US constitution that allowed me to be able to do that but it takes the adults to actually create safe environments and to push back and hold the other adults accountable for their abuse.
Let it happen and then sue the schools that participate, then vote to remove the guy who pushed for it as someone whos incompetent for the position.
Thankfully, my kids are grown and won't have to deal with this blatant pissing on the Constitution move, resident ass clown, Walters has made. However, if they *were* still in school, I would let the school staff know that when the indoctrination book of fairy tales is read, my kids are to be sent to the library or a breakout independent study room, otherwise, they run the risk of the school being sued for forcing their idiotic christian beliefs on my kids. Fuck Walters. Fuck Stitt. And, Fuck Religion.
We don’t even have time to already teach all the required standards and “get kids caught up” in elementary school. Even if this were a real expectation, it likely wouldn’t get done in most classrooms unless it’s added to state testing. We are struggling to get all kids reading by the time they go to middle school. I teach in a more liberal area of the state (keep that in mind) but even my most hard core Christian teacher friends have no intention of teaching the Bible in school. Is he going to revoke everyone’s teaching license?
I say, question the teachings. You mean, a penguin who can swim walked to the desert to get an ark and be saved by a flood? Why does god need money?
Certainty. As long as it is okay for kids to refuse in any other thing that is taught. If you are uncomfortable with the Bible, I don't have any issues with that. I'm uncomfortable with Gender Studies in the classroom, are there any issues with not wanting my child to study that ?
I guess that depends. If the class is an elective and isn’t mandatory to graduate. And you still take it. Probably not.
The Parental Bill of Rights would allow them to opt out, IMO. [https://law.justia.com/codes/oklahoma/title-25/section-25-2002/](https://law.justia.com/codes/oklahoma/title-25/section-25-2002/)
He’s full of bluff and bs, his public funded catholic school was shot down and this will be too, he is such a vile pos