Causing prone is going to cost them sneak attack dice and is a gamble. Adding opportunity attacks to that is not going to break the game.
When in doubt, ask if a full caster is still better.
Edit: might have misunderstood if this is about standing from prone provoking opportunity attacks.
I've been doing this for 2 years. There are 2 noticeable differences:
1. Strength is more viable.
2. You don't get fucked over by the RNG of initiative if you knock someone prone who's turn quickly follows yours.
That's it. If you're surrounded, you disengage and run. This also soft boosts rogues and monk's as they can disengage as bonus actions, allowing them to still attack.
I disagree that "break the game" is the right standard here, many things can make the game far more imbalanced than before without entirely breaking it. The standard should be, "does this improve the game's balance?" Comparison to full casters also doesn't work while we haven't seen what's being done to modify most spells, especially game-breakers like *forcecage*.
The issue with adding this rule is that it makes prone far more powerful. If a single party member succeeds on their Topple or Trip, everyone in melee next to that enemy gets a reaction attack when they get up. Yes, that enemy might disengage, but if they have to resort to that they've basically lost the fight, and if a party member has Sentinel, they immediately get attacked with advantage, and if hit, lost their action and their movement, stuck prone for the next round.
On the enemy side, it also means that the enemies that can knock you prone significantly increase their damage output. A pack of dire wolves can double their DPR, and they're dangerous enough already.
I'm a little confused by your math, but I agree. OA should be the heartbeat of Rogue. With that being said, on your math.
Why is your advantage hit a 84% chance? It should be 87.75% based on typical baseline.
Warlock baseline assumes a 65% hit chance based on the AC of a CR equal to character level found in the DMG. At CR 5, the estimated AC is 15. The Rogue should have a +7 to hit (assuming a +2 from background and a +1 feat) or a 65% chance to hit. 0.35\*0.35=0.8775 or 87.75% to hit at advantage.
At CR 5, there are 5 creatures immune to prone (Air, Water, Fire Elementals, Dust Devil and Wrath) and 4 are Huge (Giant Croc and Shark, Hill Giant and Triceratops) so no Trip on those 9, leaving us with 17 CR 5 monsters to calculate their Dex Save in the Basic Rules.
The average Dex Save is \~+1 and would be much lower but a two (Gladiator and Vampire Spawn) are proficient.
With a DC of 15, that gives the enemy a 35% chance of success. I typically see 40% success chance reported as the number for Dex Saves so if you want to hedge you can proceed with that.
Also if we want to be perfectly accurate, Warlock base line is 17.8 as it gains 0.9 in DPR from crit damage.
With that in mind, a level 5 Rogue using Steady Aim or Vex to gain advantage on their Pistol (Vex 1d10 ranged weapon? don't mind if I do) shot has a 87.75% chance to hit and do 1d10+3d6+4. That's is equal to 20 damage \* 0.8775= 17.55 Baseline DPR
16\*0.0975 crit chance=1.56 crit damage dpr
19.11 total DPR
-3.07125 DPR when you attempt Poison or Trip
So new Baseline Rogue beats old Baseline Warlock unless you opt to Trip, Poison or Withdraw. It's not necessarily a flex for them to do so, mind. Basically any mediocre damage build does.
O, I assumed 0.6 chances to hit without advantage (ergo 0.84 with advantage). Seemed a bit rounder in the spreadsheat. I would think that it doesnt change all that much.
So, at level 5 rogue with shortsword does: 0.84 \* (10.5 + 3.5 + 4) + 0.1 \* (10.5 + 3.5) = 16.52, if we decide on cunning strike that goes down to 13.58 (a bit oversight on my part) here. While Warlock baseline at level 5 would be: 2 \* (0.6 \* (5.5 + 3.5 + 4) + 0.05 \* (5.5 + 3.5 )) = 16.9.
About possible DEX safe I admit I didn't do any research and just gave 50% based on feeling.
And well, at level 5 rogue's normal sneak attack is around the baseline, but at level 9 it goes up nicely to about 24 while baseline doesn't change much (18.2). Then again, at level 11 sneak attack is almost perfectly equal to th baseline.
Edit: can send the chart I made
Yeah, Berserker is great. Tho after listening to some ideas here I am now more positive about rogue. There is a lot of things to factor that we still dont have - blade cantrips, possible opportunity attack shnanigans (mirror image) and how will Vex help with that, some multiclass with good synergy (Hunter Ranger) and new feat options.
I've been ruling that standing from prone provokes opportunity attacks for 2 years now and it actually makes shoving prone worth it. Solid for rogues.
Also my party has had a homebrew rogue (among other classes) that are far more able to get opportunity attacks each round anyway for over a year and the rogues were actually viable and easy rather than constantly fighting to keep up in DPR.
I like the idea of giving Rogue different triggers for getting an opportunity attack off. Because it's the brain-numbingly simplest class right now (you could replace a Rogue with a flowchart bot and not notice a difference), these triggers could be used to give some smart back to the class (trying to construct situations where the enemy *has* to trigger one or the other of your conditions).
Plus, it'd give a purpose to melee Rogues, if they were the one potentially getting double sneak attacks off while the sniper Rogue is a mile away hiding in a bush.
...but making prone trigger OAs for *everyone* is not the way to go. 5e is already awfully static about its movement, and prone is already a strong condition.
sticky-hard to get away from. it can be very punishing as doing everything a character can will only move the pc 15 feet away from the enemy. depending on the creature quite a few who have reach its possible you barely leave range or dont make it out of range in some instances which means they will likely instantly be down the next round, beginning a cycle that is had to escape, as they keep dropping prone (assuming a party member can get them up.)
Well, I see the point, but I was hoping that saving throw for falling prone as well as disengage and other options to escape that situation (teleportation, telekinetic shove etc.) would mitigate that to an extent.
All of those might as well as some of the new weapon masteries. It's just something to keep in mind as many characters who don't optimize don't go after teleportation or another get of of jail card
Yeah, makes sense, tho my table optimize quite often so maybe it would not be that bad for my table at least. Plus, I always thought what conditions in dnd could use some work.
I would agree with that... I just currently have players that don't optimize and rules like that would wreck them so fast especially when they don't stay as a group and it's a chase back to the rest of the party.
Yeah, I feel that. I only started to think about things like that after 2 years of play. The old newbee me would probably not appreciate sth like that XD
honestly, an opportunist feat, with more ways to give opportunity attacks, would be very good and pretty much compensate for the ngelect to the rogue DPR.
being able to deliver an attack when:
- an enemy tries to stand up from prone (without disengaging)
- pick up its weapon if disarmed (without disengaging)
- use its action to end a condition on itself (such as alchemist fire or the frightened condition)
- tries to use the help action. (without disengaging)
it would be cool, and rogues getting that extra feat at lvl 10. also would be creazy with sentinel.
as things stand in one dnd, multiclassing into ranger hunter, getting sentinel, and doing arcane trickster mirror image shenanigans is your best bet.
mageslayer was a chance too but they changed it in playtesting. hopefully they revert it back
this is my formula:
Arcane trickster 7/ Hunter 3
* vex rapier + booming blade + duelist combat style + hunters mark.
* mirror image + sentinel
* 3 lvls into hunter for the new giant slayer (can attack someone who hits or misses you, regardless of size)
* new unrestricted AT list lets me pick mage armor + a shield from ranger dip: 20 AC and starter feat tough for beefiness.
* probably human to pick a second origin feat for skilled and have like 11 proeficiencies and 5 expertise
* only thing pending is to see if they revert the changes to mageslayer hopefully
Oooo, I just checked the new hunter out. The option you seem to mention is called Retaliator. Anyway I completely missed that. Seems like a good multiclassing, tho instead of going human for skilled I would choose any other race really. Dwarf for poison resistance and additional hp (for melee), elf for cool additional spell, gnome for advantage in mental saving throws etc.
I am really happy that era of Vumans is over XD
if not human, i would go wood elf because getting pass without trace on a rogue is absolutley disgusting.
but since reliable talent is at lvl 7 im trying to lean onto the skill monkey as the niche for out of combat utility
Ech, never really liked skill monkey side of rogue tbh. And Reliable talent, while quite powerful, is a bit boring for me as well. So better spells or hp are my picks.
Casting a spell or using a ranged weapon in mele was one I considered in the past too. After all an assassin gets in a wizards face and their first instinct isn't to use blink or misty step, they deserve the stab
Good points, but they're not going to change Rogue anymore. Rogues are being printed by the time we talk.
Yeah, at this point, I am probably asking if allowing it would not make things unbalanced XD
I wouldn't think it's going to be unbalanced.
Prone is already a powerful condition to inflict, I'd be very hesitant to add opportunity attacks to it.
Causing prone is going to cost them sneak attack dice and is a gamble. Adding opportunity attacks to that is not going to break the game. When in doubt, ask if a full caster is still better. Edit: might have misunderstood if this is about standing from prone provoking opportunity attacks. I've been doing this for 2 years. There are 2 noticeable differences: 1. Strength is more viable. 2. You don't get fucked over by the RNG of initiative if you knock someone prone who's turn quickly follows yours. That's it. If you're surrounded, you disengage and run. This also soft boosts rogues and monk's as they can disengage as bonus actions, allowing them to still attack.
I disagree that "break the game" is the right standard here, many things can make the game far more imbalanced than before without entirely breaking it. The standard should be, "does this improve the game's balance?" Comparison to full casters also doesn't work while we haven't seen what's being done to modify most spells, especially game-breakers like *forcecage*. The issue with adding this rule is that it makes prone far more powerful. If a single party member succeeds on their Topple or Trip, everyone in melee next to that enemy gets a reaction attack when they get up. Yes, that enemy might disengage, but if they have to resort to that they've basically lost the fight, and if a party member has Sentinel, they immediately get attacked with advantage, and if hit, lost their action and their movement, stuck prone for the next round. On the enemy side, it also means that the enemies that can knock you prone significantly increase their damage output. A pack of dire wolves can double their DPR, and they're dangerous enough already.
I'm a little confused by your math, but I agree. OA should be the heartbeat of Rogue. With that being said, on your math. Why is your advantage hit a 84% chance? It should be 87.75% based on typical baseline. Warlock baseline assumes a 65% hit chance based on the AC of a CR equal to character level found in the DMG. At CR 5, the estimated AC is 15. The Rogue should have a +7 to hit (assuming a +2 from background and a +1 feat) or a 65% chance to hit. 0.35\*0.35=0.8775 or 87.75% to hit at advantage. At CR 5, there are 5 creatures immune to prone (Air, Water, Fire Elementals, Dust Devil and Wrath) and 4 are Huge (Giant Croc and Shark, Hill Giant and Triceratops) so no Trip on those 9, leaving us with 17 CR 5 monsters to calculate their Dex Save in the Basic Rules. The average Dex Save is \~+1 and would be much lower but a two (Gladiator and Vampire Spawn) are proficient. With a DC of 15, that gives the enemy a 35% chance of success. I typically see 40% success chance reported as the number for Dex Saves so if you want to hedge you can proceed with that. Also if we want to be perfectly accurate, Warlock base line is 17.8 as it gains 0.9 in DPR from crit damage. With that in mind, a level 5 Rogue using Steady Aim or Vex to gain advantage on their Pistol (Vex 1d10 ranged weapon? don't mind if I do) shot has a 87.75% chance to hit and do 1d10+3d6+4. That's is equal to 20 damage \* 0.8775= 17.55 Baseline DPR 16\*0.0975 crit chance=1.56 crit damage dpr 19.11 total DPR -3.07125 DPR when you attempt Poison or Trip So new Baseline Rogue beats old Baseline Warlock unless you opt to Trip, Poison or Withdraw. It's not necessarily a flex for them to do so, mind. Basically any mediocre damage build does.
O, I assumed 0.6 chances to hit without advantage (ergo 0.84 with advantage). Seemed a bit rounder in the spreadsheat. I would think that it doesnt change all that much. So, at level 5 rogue with shortsword does: 0.84 \* (10.5 + 3.5 + 4) + 0.1 \* (10.5 + 3.5) = 16.52, if we decide on cunning strike that goes down to 13.58 (a bit oversight on my part) here. While Warlock baseline at level 5 would be: 2 \* (0.6 \* (5.5 + 3.5 + 4) + 0.05 \* (5.5 + 3.5 )) = 16.9. About possible DEX safe I admit I didn't do any research and just gave 50% based on feeling. And well, at level 5 rogue's normal sneak attack is around the baseline, but at level 9 it goes up nicely to about 24 while baseline doesn't change much (18.2). Then again, at level 11 sneak attack is almost perfectly equal to th baseline. Edit: can send the chart I made
Multiclass with Berserker gets baked in Retaliatory strikes, but you have to take Berserker to 10 at least.
A bit too big investment I think. Like, you are mainly barb at that point.
True, and also, straight Berserker is pretty fire these days anyhow. Just need to figure how to make good use of the Bonus Action.
Yeah, Berserker is great. Tho after listening to some ideas here I am now more positive about rogue. There is a lot of things to factor that we still dont have - blade cantrips, possible opportunity attack shnanigans (mirror image) and how will Vex help with that, some multiclass with good synergy (Hunter Ranger) and new feat options.
I've been ruling that standing from prone provokes opportunity attacks for 2 years now and it actually makes shoving prone worth it. Solid for rogues. Also my party has had a homebrew rogue (among other classes) that are far more able to get opportunity attacks each round anyway for over a year and the rogues were actually viable and easy rather than constantly fighting to keep up in DPR.
I like the idea of giving Rogue different triggers for getting an opportunity attack off. Because it's the brain-numbingly simplest class right now (you could replace a Rogue with a flowchart bot and not notice a difference), these triggers could be used to give some smart back to the class (trying to construct situations where the enemy *has* to trigger one or the other of your conditions). Plus, it'd give a purpose to melee Rogues, if they were the one potentially getting double sneak attacks off while the sniper Rogue is a mile away hiding in a bush. ...but making prone trigger OAs for *everyone* is not the way to go. 5e is already awfully static about its movement, and prone is already a strong condition.
Id hate to be a player in this case. it makes people and monsters incredibly sticky.
Sticky?
sticky-hard to get away from. it can be very punishing as doing everything a character can will only move the pc 15 feet away from the enemy. depending on the creature quite a few who have reach its possible you barely leave range or dont make it out of range in some instances which means they will likely instantly be down the next round, beginning a cycle that is had to escape, as they keep dropping prone (assuming a party member can get them up.)
Well, I see the point, but I was hoping that saving throw for falling prone as well as disengage and other options to escape that situation (teleportation, telekinetic shove etc.) would mitigate that to an extent.
All of those might as well as some of the new weapon masteries. It's just something to keep in mind as many characters who don't optimize don't go after teleportation or another get of of jail card
Yeah, makes sense, tho my table optimize quite often so maybe it would not be that bad for my table at least. Plus, I always thought what conditions in dnd could use some work.
I would agree with that... I just currently have players that don't optimize and rules like that would wreck them so fast especially when they don't stay as a group and it's a chase back to the rest of the party.
Yeah, I feel that. I only started to think about things like that after 2 years of play. The old newbee me would probably not appreciate sth like that XD
I think the dmg should be filled with good tag on rules like this that can be implemented on a per player basis
Oooo, that would be great.
honestly, an opportunist feat, with more ways to give opportunity attacks, would be very good and pretty much compensate for the ngelect to the rogue DPR. being able to deliver an attack when: - an enemy tries to stand up from prone (without disengaging) - pick up its weapon if disarmed (without disengaging) - use its action to end a condition on itself (such as alchemist fire or the frightened condition) - tries to use the help action. (without disengaging) it would be cool, and rogues getting that extra feat at lvl 10. also would be creazy with sentinel.
Man, that sounds cool. And feat (or half feat) should be appropriate price. I might steal that.
as things stand in one dnd, multiclassing into ranger hunter, getting sentinel, and doing arcane trickster mirror image shenanigans is your best bet. mageslayer was a chance too but they changed it in playtesting. hopefully they revert it back
Oooo, with Vex Mirror image shnanigans could be really powerful, good point. Tho again, as long as miror image wording didn't change.
this is my formula: Arcane trickster 7/ Hunter 3 * vex rapier + booming blade + duelist combat style + hunters mark. * mirror image + sentinel * 3 lvls into hunter for the new giant slayer (can attack someone who hits or misses you, regardless of size) * new unrestricted AT list lets me pick mage armor + a shield from ranger dip: 20 AC and starter feat tough for beefiness. * probably human to pick a second origin feat for skilled and have like 11 proeficiencies and 5 expertise * only thing pending is to see if they revert the changes to mageslayer hopefully
Oooo, I just checked the new hunter out. The option you seem to mention is called Retaliator. Anyway I completely missed that. Seems like a good multiclassing, tho instead of going human for skilled I would choose any other race really. Dwarf for poison resistance and additional hp (for melee), elf for cool additional spell, gnome for advantage in mental saving throws etc. I am really happy that era of Vumans is over XD
if not human, i would go wood elf because getting pass without trace on a rogue is absolutley disgusting. but since reliable talent is at lvl 7 im trying to lean onto the skill monkey as the niche for out of combat utility
Ech, never really liked skill monkey side of rogue tbh. And Reliable talent, while quite powerful, is a bit boring for me as well. So better spells or hp are my picks.
Casting a spell or using a ranged weapon in mele was one I considered in the past too. After all an assassin gets in a wizards face and their first instinct isn't to use blink or misty step, they deserve the stab
Casting a spell is what the 2014 mageslayer feat does
Forgot about that one, actually. But either way like idea of tying opportunity fantasy to Rogue.
You saw rogues get weapon mastery, right? They got MANY more ways to trigger sneak attack. Hell the description of Vex straight up calls this out.
I mean, out of their turn. Sneak attack in only your turn barely meets the baseline.