Not just Pakistanis
Rather, like all educated Muslims, they are truly tired of the mistakes of illiterate Muslims, and they are worse than non-Muslims when it comes to distorting the religion.
These fundamentalists want a secular constitution when they're a minority and in addition, want to be accommodated for their different religious views. They turn a blind eye when they constitute the majority (in their home country) and that is exactly when they spew the most nonsensical and extremist religious BS known to mankind.
There is a post here just below you, around 15 minutes ago, asking who do people hate more and gives two religious groups as options. That should answer your question about how most people aren't self aware.
My favourite was a very prominent TV and community figure maulvi who I met as a teenager to ask questions about…
…why people go to heaven or hell if they’re born into Islam while someone else isn’t and their religion tells them that’s the correct one. Just like Islam. Or how is there free will but Allah knows everything that will happen before it happens? Either we’re slaves to a story being played out or God doesn’t know everything.
Dekho baita, Allah nahin chahta ke tum uske Baray mein Socho! Bus chup hokay Quran parro (only in Arabic obviously) aur yeh sawal choro. Bohut kitabein parro gay to shaitaan ghalib asakta hai
Sometimes i just think maybe its karma that we’re getting for oppressing women and minorities. Everything started goin downhill the day ahmadis were declared kafirs.
Its not karma. There is a clear relationship between the two. Women are 50%, their lack of participation means a country unable to compete. Oppressing minorities give me wrong signals and show lack of stability. It is in our self interest to do what we are not doing.
I don’t think it has anything to do with ahmadis being declared as kafirs. One of the core beliefs of Islam is to believe that Prophet Muhammad PBUH is the last messenger and the Prophet of Islam. Anyone disagreeing with that is automatically out of Islam.
That being said this absolutely does not mean that they have no right to live in Pakistan. They can do anything they want and believe in anything while living in Pakistan.
If you spent 1/10th the time researching than pretending to be a pseudo intellectual, Ahmadi Qadiyanis were declared non-muslims before Pakistan was even formed so it was natural this would be represented in the country that claimed it was for Islam. Please use some of your intelligence to aid in the discourse rather than being worse than the mindless zombie OP is criticising.
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:that the Prophet (ﷺ) said to 'Ali: "You are to me in the position that Harun was to Musa, except that there is no Prophet after me." Jami\` at-Tirmidhi 3730
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "My similitude in comparison with the other prophets before me, is that of a man who has built a house nicely and beautifully, except for a place of one brick in a corner. The people go about it and wonder at its beauty, but say: 'Would that this brick be put in its place!' So I am that brick, and I am the last of the Prophets." Sahih al-Bukhari 3535
It is Ijma' (consensus) of the Ummah that you are not a Muslim if you believe there can be a new Prophet after Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him. Prophet Isa (Jesus) peace be upon him is not a new prophet so when he returns to finish his life, it won't mean a new Prophet with a new ummah has come. Prophet Isa peace be upon him will be part of the ummah of Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him.
If you are Ahmadi Qadiyani, I suggest you come back to Islam. I welcome you wholeheartedly.
The interesting thing about all of this is that the zombies you called religious are not really religious at all. It’s a facade. They don’t actually follow Islamic teachings but use the facade to have power over others. It is a given that minorities should be treated well even if we disagree with their beliefs. That is something that is both secular and actually Islamic. The biggest mistake Pakistanis made was to leave religion up to uneducated mullahs and pirs instead of maintaining high quality education with a proper ijaza system. Ignorance is fought best with actual knowledge.
Brother, when you talk about Islam and Muslims it is best to speak with respect. I understand you are commenting with sincere intentions but when you talk badly about a group of people that the masses respect then you will inevitably end up in a quagmire of internal arguments leading to a lot of resentment.
Allah teaches us to convey Islam with wisdom. This means not just "telling it like it is" but also taking into account the sentiments of the people. Allah knows Best. May he guide us all to the righteous path and make us steadfast on it.
"Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is \[rightly\] guided." Quran 16:125
ask yourself honestly, "does Islam advocate for a secular government?", it's one thing to be a zombie, and by no means is this current zombie society as you say a proper Islamic country, but secularism isn't the way
Not sure what you mean by "religious zombies", the term is new to me, but judging by the things you wrote, if you mean the uneducated nutjobs and mullahs who don't even know Arabic but have memorized the Qurān just as a thing to chant without understanding it, and who cause shameful events such as the Ichra incident, I'm totally with you, they not only have a part in ruining this beautiful country, they are also double guilty for defaming Islām itself, because of their own folly, claiming to be the representatives of a religion they clearly know nothing about.
But if you consider religion itself to be the "cause" of our issues, then we're going to have a problem.
Also, the point you made about India's secularism vs Pakistan being a "kattar Muslim desh with no rights to minorities" sir, first of all, understand that Pakistan is NOT a "muslim desh" at all in terms of laws, and you seem to have no knowledge of how a "Muslim desh" is supposed to deal with non-muslim minorities if you think they have no rights under Islāmic Law.
Secondly, what India "should be", Secular or religious, should be upto the Indian majority to decide. The same applies to Pakistan, and no Pakistani majority wants secularism, as of recent surveys over 70% of Pakistani youth wants an Islamic Order, so it's actually very logical to have an Islamic Shariah based system in Pakistan (which btw, we have never had) and a secular governement in India.
Regardless, even if you are uninformed on what Shariah is Vs. the lie Pakistan's government and people demonstrate, I can't really blame you because the Muslims haven't really shown an example of life according to the Qurān and Sunnah either, which goes back to the first point I made.
These namesake religious mullah idiots and uneducated molvis need to be exposed and removed from any public connection to Islām at all, they do not represent sane and educated Muslims.
I have zero issues with you believing in islam or any religion for that matter. Secondly, doesn’t matter if islam gives rights or not. If we want to live in a tolerant, peaceful society, we need to agree on certain fundamental points regardless of religion. One of which, everyone has the right to live no matter their faith.
Exactly, that's what secularism is about. It doesn't matter if you think Islam is greatest religion and has answers to every problem, you are free to have this opinion but you still can't impose this on the whole country. Islam may have answers but your interpretation might not be same as other people that's why we need secular laws that gives right to everyone regardless of religion and you can practice Islam or any other religion without any problem as long as it doesn't involve voilence on others.
You're mistaken terribly on difference of interpretation when it comes to governance laws- there is no disagreement on interpretation of Laws of Governance in Islam. Neither did anyone say that if you're under a Shariah system, you can't have an opinion that Shariah isn't the best system, or that you can't debate it in an intellectual manner. Nor are you forced to live your life as a Muslim if you are living in a Shariah-driven country. "Imposing" of Islam on Pakistan will be according to the democratic will of the people, and if they choose to do so, the seculars should take their merchandise and sell it elsewhere.
>you can practice Islam or any other religion without any problem as long as it doesn't involve voilence on others.
Yes, you can do precisely that under a truly Shariah-based system of Governance, and you will soon be able to do so in Pakistan, insha'Allah.
That is called tyranny of the majority. That is why in a democracy there is constitutional protection for certain freedoms. Religion or majority rule can not be used to take away rights of others just because majority deem it so. As India is a secular country the courts will not allow imposition of Hinduism on others or the right of minorities to practice their way of life even if it they want to be agnostic. There can never be a blasphemy law. No Faith is Supreme.
I think tyranny is imposing by force a set of rules and regulations on a stark (99.4%) majority of people that do not want those rules to be imposed onto them. Give them what they want, while protecting each and every civil and religious right of the minorities. That's what Shariah is.
>As India is a secular country the courts will not allow imposition of Hinduism on others or the right of minorities to practice their way of life even if it they want to be agnostic.
Yeah, because India isn't 99% Hindu. And you make this childish claim that "courts won't allow", yet despite having a HUGE non-hindu (and muslim) population in India, everyone can see just how much influence the Hindutva BJP has had on India. Its a nice thing to say on reddit what you wrote, but the reality is different.
>No Faith is Supreme.
That's what you think, and you are free to continue thinking that. It won't change what's true, and it certainly won't change the opinion of 99.4% of Pakistanis.
How so? Can you name some rights that are denied only to Muslims in India? Also, can you let us know any Islamic country that gives more rights to its minorities than what Muslims enjoy in India?
Hope in the [young Pakistani generation, who are waking up from the slumber of depravity.](https://muslimskeptic.com/2023/05/03/pakistans-youth-irreligious/)
> I have zero issues with you believing in islam or any religion for that matter.
True, no one should have any issues, and the Islamic Shariah gives them all these rights and more.
Brother i have no issues with interpretation. Hell, Im alright with Pakistan using certain islamic laws agreed upon by all muslims. But before that, we, Pakistanis, need to agree upon a fundamental set of points.
To make it more clear, an Hindu and Sikh do not accept islamic law. But they are human beings and they have rights. These rights should be agreed upon as basic frame first.
>To make it more clear, an Hindu and Sikh do not accept islamic law. But they are human beings and they have rights. These rights should be agreed upon as basic frame first.
Yes sir, 300% I agree with you, infact if I was the one making laws, if a Muslim messes with a Hindu or a Sikh (or any non Muslim) and the non muslim seeks legal protection, I'd make the Muslim an example in front of everyone. This is what Shariah entails. All minorities, Muslim or non muslim, have their life, their respect and their property (assets + cash) protected by the Islamic government in the same (or an even stronger) manner than that of a Muslim. You're spot on. The reason this is not the case in Pakistan is because its not Shariah driven, its all secular disgust up there on the policy level.
Because they are secular governements over a people that want secularism. Furthermore, Pakistan doing terrible has nothing to do with the system of Goverment itself, corruption can exist and eat up any system, and that's what we have here.
What you said. There’s no Islamic basis for a “molvi” or “mullah” and it’s strictly a subcontinent/persian thing that came way after the death of the last of the sahaba. Either someone is a scholar or student of knowledge or they’re just a layman. A molvi is essentially a layman with a loud mouth and at least looks more religious (doesn’t mean anything unfortunately, even a bearded topi wearing guy like me trusts the religious looking types the least because they’ve been the only ones to successfully scam me). You’d think someone who has spent their entire life in Pakistan would take everything with a grain of salt but NOPE, people are willing to kill just because some dude in a imamah told them to. Willing to “dance on air” like Mumtaz Qadri for absolutely nothing (you can’t just murder your boss because you don’t like what he says, especially if your job is protecting him, the Prophet (saws) literally sent people away from battles because they had previously made promises just to save their lives, he took that so seriously).
I am religious and I would love to see more of real Islam in Pakistan and I wish those who are against it would just see that those of us that actually know the religion hate these molvis just as much if not more than you. It should be a criminal offense to claim to be a scholar/making a fatwa without knowing Arabic (how can you make a fatwa if you can’t understand the nuance of the Arabic language, it’s beyond just native level of speaking, it’s a mastery in the Arabic language that one needs to be a scholar? You really want to face Allah on the day of judgement for a bad fatwa that wasn’t in good faith? At least a scholar who gets it wrong is rewarded once for trying).
TLDR: Religion ain’t the problem. Charlatans are.
I feel like a lot of people fear the Shariah because they don’t understand it, I imagine no one here has even studied the Shariah law properly, but they might advocate against it because the west says “Shariah bad.” Does anyone even know what “Shariah” means? The west shouldn’t have so much power over your thinking that you start opposing or being afraid of ideas you don’t even know the meaning on.
On one hand you all want to oppose Amreeki gooray and on the other you oppose or are afraid of something you are ignorant about because the Amreeki goora called it bad. That isn’t critical thinking, I advice everyone who’s either afraid of Shariah or against it to genuinely research about it.
>What is the punishment for leaving Islam under Sharia?
The same punishment one gets for committing treason in a secular country. (Only for muslims)
>What is the punishment for blasphemy?
Depends on what kinda blasphemy.
>What is the punishment for extramarital sex?
One hundred lashes and be stoned to death. And there's nothing wrong with that. (Only for muslims)
>a lot of people fear the Shariah because they don’t understand it, I imagine no one here has even studied the Shariah law
100%, and it's not by chance, it's by deliberate programming against Shariah and Islām in general by the West (_or those that run the West_ 👀) to make Pakistanis and Muslims in general feel Shariah, and by extension Islām itself is "outdated" or is "a 7th century set of rules" to eventually break their confidence and turn them into disserters. Its honestly sad seeing people advocating against Shariah and in favour of a failed ideology like liberalism and secularism, clearly they have no idea what they're rejecting, and what they're desiring for.
Sorry no one is going to take an Islamophobe Indian Hindu seriously when he lies about Tafīrs, but now that you mention it, I've read two- Tafhīm ul Qurān and Tafsīr Ibn Kaseer, and I'm currently reading a third one. Now you're exposed, goodbye.
Well I am a Sikh of non-Pakistani origin so take my opinion with a grain of salt. But anyway:
The reality is that Islam is an integral part of Pakistan both culturally and historically. I think a secular Pakistan is wildly unrealistic. Moreover, the reality on the ground is that most Pakistani Muslims are quite attached to their faith, it is the foundation of their lives. In that way you are like most Hindu Indians, who lived under a secular government for 70-so years. They are now tearing down that secular government with ease, because it was not an accurate reflection of their society. If secularism is imposed top-down in Pakistan, eventually it will be torn down in the same way.
Rather than aiming for a secular government, Pakistan should aim to improve the education and living standards of its people. If Pakistani Muslims have more, higher-paying jobs, better housing and utilities, etc. then the motives that radicalize people to join TLP or worse organizations will fade. Life will get better for women and minorities as a result.
>sada salam khatre ma ha, sar tan se juda, tu matlab sex kerne lag jae, purhna mat gumrah ho jao ga
No Pakistani here says this lmfao, you're fighting phantoms.
Kbhi ap fajar k time uthain or masjid k speakers sa anay wali awaz sunain pata nhi konsay wonderland main reh rhay hain but here in the middle of the most populated city of Punjab I every single day freaking here chants of Sir tan sa juda and the molvi recite this loudly in speakers and 100s of naive young children repeat after him.
I am an Indian and an Hindu brother.
I would just add that biggest way to make others admire your religion is to practice love, warmth and kindness to others.
I got all my faith in Islam by seeing one Shahrukh khan who respects every religion, worships his God and loves everyone, than 1 million hard liners fighting and arguing.
Same for few of my friends.
Even if anyone wants Islam to rule the world, love is the way.
It is OUR fault (non religious zombies) for not offering them an off-ramp off religion. I have gotten many zombies to view society differently. Engage!
True.
And it also doesn’t mean one stop believing or start having random sex (as someone else pointed out in a different thread). Just that respect difference of opinion and give everyone right to live.
Thing is Pakistan ain't following Islam, they try to make am interpretation which fit in with their school of thought and staunchly follow that.
Every school of thought is doing this, you are talking about minorities, bro Muslim who try to practice Islam according to Quran and Sunnah isn't safe either. He if propagates and tells them that they are promoting Shirk, he's declared a gustakh and most likely killed.
Our whole society is build on Shirk now, and cult following of sects have led us to this.
The true teaching of Quran and Ahadith are all ignored and emphasis is on following your own sect even if it contradicts with the Quran and Sunnah.
All other sects are inferior to your sect, your sect is the only one going to Jannah, your sects Sheikh is the supreme authority and anyone who questions your Shiakh is misguided and has been led astray.
This is all the brainwashing done to a child since forever in Pak, whatelse you expect to happen.
On the other hand there are those liberals who hate Islam, don't wanna follow any part of it, consider themselves cool and privileged by making fun of the religion, only highlights the problems of a particular sect of Islam if they are being funded by the other.
So to sum it up that's what a society would end up with,
If you don't follow the Religion with its true meaning
Seeing people double down and insisting that the problem is that we are not implementing "real" Islam and "real" shariah.
There will always be disagreements on that. Always. What they are insisting on is a utopian idea that has no basis in reality.
Egyptian here , Accusing the islam to all your problems is not right at all , and pakistan is an Example of a secular rule that will do anything for US so they stay in power , to cut it short
1- Military Dictatorship that doesn't think of anything except keeping himself in power and cause trouble more than good , and when you need a real army for real fighting , you will be amazed how useless and business destroyed the army and its people
2- \`taking endless debt so you can take the money for yourself and your whole family , and let your country fall
3- lacking of good education that cause the people to understand ( will make it harder to be rule ) so letting people be stupid
and for final words , Pakistan is 125 billion dollar in debt , did Islam went to IMF to take the money and buy stupid stuff ?
Extreme Concentration of power is Pakistan’s number one problem. Religious nuts are second but arguably more deeper. They hinder critical thinking, asking questions and wreak havoc for nonsensical issues. All other problems stem from these two.
Pakistan is not secular. No secular system would require president to be muslim. A secular system has three basic principles: 1) everyone is free to practice their religion 2) everyone has certain fundamental rights and) if there is clash between 1 and 2, fundamental rights will prevail.
Habibi first of all he's accusing illiterate extremists not Islam.
Pakistan is neither secular not religious (and I'm saying this as someone who opposes secularism). This country is a jungle where the elites can decide whatever they want.
Blaming the West is NOT the answer coz our own people are equally problematic and hypocritical. I always say this: even if we were atheists our problems would still be there UNTIL we agree to change our ways. Religion has got nothing to do with it.
1. I fully agree with you.
2. True
3. True but like point 2 it's how elites around the world keep their rule strong: keep people divided, give them some bread, some circus, and they will never question you OR just torture them when it comes to basic necessities of living (the case with Pakistan) and they will never have the time to question you.
Pakistan owes money not just to IMF but also to Gulf Arabs (with interest mind you) and China (this one the real amount is kept secret from public). Corrupt rulers not Islam or any other country are to blame for this pitiful state of this country. We people of Pakistan are lazy hypocrites who only cry when a calamity effects us and have no empathy for others. We deserve what's happening to us.
Snooping around in people's private matters or logon ka bistar main ghus ker religious tabhleegh is the main cause behind the fanatic behaviour. Who is a mullah to tell you to live your life? All these are just grifters who want to take your money.
Islamically speaking, there's no concept of mullah or molvi. ANY MUSLIM can lead a PRAYER, PERFORM NiKKAH, JANAZAH.
If u mean ppl who have never even once read the Quran in Urdu and think they have a moral high ground just cause they listen to a retarded molvie then yes u are right they are just as bad as all the wannabe american and liberals of Pakistan
I agree that minorities should get their rights but
>Worse, if you think India should embrace secularism and treat their minorities well but Pakistan should be kattar muslim desh with no regards for minorities.
Unlike india, Pakistan doesn't pretend to be secular. It's up to India if they wanna be a "hindu rashtra" as they call it, but since partition, india has been pretending to be secular when it clearly isn't.
Another day, another idiot.
I've seen enough bout this Sh*ty mindset.
From mid feb, desi liberals r so obsessed with calling all muslims as extremists
But whenever u ask bout what they actually know about islam or read about islam.
their response:
I've seen enough, or i have heard enough.
get ur facts right then go on posting n then debates
This is what happens when comprehension and teaching of religion is left to the people that don't understand it themselves. Religion can be practiced in a civilised manner.
They only seek a reason to stay relevant by creating a nuisance value.
A Muslim is a person in whose presence everyone feels safe be it a believer or a non believer, that is understood at all levels, those who try to mould the religion for their own nefarious designs are to be rooted out from society.
The only solution is to promote sensible and well educated Muslim leaders who promote similarities rather than differences.
Mind it, if all religious differences are settled today people would still be fighting over language, provinces, colour, caste's and creed.
We as a nation have a long road to cover before becoming a civilised nation.
We have examples of other civilised Muslim nations which are progressing without these issues.
Tameez ghar se sikhai jati hai, tameez ki kami hai bas.
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If anything is ruining Pakistan it has been the undermining of merit, militarisation, the improper understanding of deen (like Talibanis following their culture and not deen properly) and the refusal to implement proper due process (which is fundamental in islamic governance models). Tribalism, nepotism etc. that is engrianed in Pak is a curse.
The only thing that has given the individual pakistani some shred of dignity has been deen. You are the type of hypocrite who idealises radical secularism that persecutes conservatism, family values, and collectivism.
The same ideology that bans the niqab in France (despite its supposed emphasis on 'free choice'), the ideology that has destroyed the concept of family in the western world (leading to fatherless individualistic consumerism), the ideology that has perverted the natural order of life (LGBTQ, vice etc.), and an ideology that has failed on every single level(only you're too enamored by superficial wealth to appreciate its failure on all levels -including financially).
My brother, travel the world and you'll find that Pak has failed on a few levels (which we should correct with appropriate solutions) but the ideology you subscribe to is an abject failure on all. Destroyed economies (held afloat my blatant manipulation, which will continue until fiat currency dies), no family structures, no moral code (to the extent that absolute freaks are selling ideology to kids in classrooms), vice and perversion abound, and directionless (chasing sex and fiat but strongly unfulfilled).
bro if u r a religious person then it will mean that u respect beliefs of a minority, dont chant shit, and will basically be the person Prophet Muhammad (SAW) would want us to become by following his teachings. Make Allah (SWT) make us all religious and devoted to Allah
No he's not. Please at least learn about the Islamic belief if you are going to criticise it. Islam forbids oppression against anyone. Here is the evidence:
Jabir b. Abdullah reported that two young men, one from the Muhajirin (emigrants) and the other one from the Angr (helpers) fell into dispute and the Muhajir called his fellow Muhajirin, and the Ansari (the helper) called the Ansar (for help). In the meanwhile, Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came there and said:
What is this, the proclamation of the days of jahiliya (ignorance)? They said: Allah's Messenger, there is nothing serious. The two young men fell into dispute and the one struck at the back of the other. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Well, a person should help his brother whether he is an oppressor or an oppressed. If he is the oppressor he should prevent him from doing it, for that is his help; and if he is the oppressed he should be helped (against oppression). Sahih Muslim 2584a
Islam is the most tolerant religion in the world. It is a Just religion. You sir have been listening to people who are uneducated and have been influenced by them. I request you learn about Islam from someone who is knowledgeable before you start criticising.
Just to give you some perspective, the richest the Indian Subcontinent ever got was under the Mughal Empire. During this time Muslims were in power and they were treating the Hindus and Sikhs with a lot of respect and Justice. In fact, the Dalits, which are the lowest caste in Hinduism, were literally considered untouchables and thus despised by other Hindus. It was Babar who came and saw how ridiculous this was and worked to stamp out this nasty caste system to get the Hindus working together alongside the Muslims.
I sincerely request you read some Islamic rulings regarding treatment of Hindus and Sikhs. You will honestly be shocked. Islam is God's true religion. I welcome you to Islam.
Problem is that they’re idol worshippers. Instead of basing their identity on Islamic values, they make Islam a part of their identity simply because that’s what they were born into.
They make their own version of Allah and put it on a shelf, then attribute whatever qualities they want to it. And you can tell this because they’re always obsessed with materialistic, insignificant things.
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Salam Alaykum
The watering down and sectarianism that Islam has been morphed into is actual antithetical to what Islam calls towards.
One of the roles of the Imam, Masjid and Mullah is to ensure the preservation of the rights of the population against government tyranny. The issue here is that the Islamic scholarship is filled with ignorant people who actually dont understand Islamic principles, or hypocrites that aid the government in surpressing people.
There is a hadith of the prophet SAW that describes these people:
Umar ibn al-Khattab reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, among what I fear most for my nation is every hypocrite with a knowledgeable tongue.”
Source: Musnad Aḥmad 140
It is important to compartmentalise each issue holding the country down. The effects of failed Islamic leadership are not explicitly the cause of the failed government and vice versa.
If the population is not raised on good morals and principles based on Islamic concepts, then you will never see Islam implemented correctly.
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Conveniently exclude the effing liberals and elitist, the biggest thorn in the progress of Pakistan. How many incidents in regards to minorities occurred last year? Reddit philosophers blaming everything on religion.
And the most stupid part is that these idiots who eat pig nihari for breakfast don't even realize that their actions hardly bring anyone towards Islam but instead turn people away from it.
Apostasy in Iran skyrocketed under the mullah regime because of their tyranny and hypocrisy. I'm afraid Taliban will give us the same results in Afghanistan. Yet these idiots haven't realized anything
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Brigading on the thread by non Pakistani users. Thread is locked.
Bhai, ye cheez. We have been abused too much. It's time to bring change, even if the resistance hides behind religion.
Not just Pakistanis Rather, like all educated Muslims, they are truly tired of the mistakes of illiterate Muslims, and they are worse than non-Muslims when it comes to distorting the religion.
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yeah people should actually study properly what their beliefs are before being illetrate. nice point my brother from another post
“Before being illiterate” lol pretty sure that’s how all Pakistanis spawn, we gotta level up
These fundamentalists want a secular constitution when they're a minority and in addition, want to be accommodated for their different religious views. They turn a blind eye when they constitute the majority (in their home country) and that is exactly when they spew the most nonsensical and extremist religious BS known to mankind.
There is a post here just below you, around 15 minutes ago, asking who do people hate more and gives two religious groups as options. That should answer your question about how most people aren't self aware.
I think these people are just being misled by jahil molvis
I refuse to accept this as an excuse. Everyone should learn to think for themselves.
Zindabad bro!
My favourite was a very prominent TV and community figure maulvi who I met as a teenager to ask questions about… …why people go to heaven or hell if they’re born into Islam while someone else isn’t and their religion tells them that’s the correct one. Just like Islam. Or how is there free will but Allah knows everything that will happen before it happens? Either we’re slaves to a story being played out or God doesn’t know everything. Dekho baita, Allah nahin chahta ke tum uske Baray mein Socho! Bus chup hokay Quran parro (only in Arabic obviously) aur yeh sawal choro. Bohut kitabein parro gay to shaitaan ghalib asakta hai
yep islamists are the worst thing to happen to Pakistan Pakistan would be so much better if it was not Islamic Republic
Asim Muneer be like my plan is working.
Sometimes i just think maybe its karma that we’re getting for oppressing women and minorities. Everything started goin downhill the day ahmadis were declared kafirs.
Its not karma. There is a clear relationship between the two. Women are 50%, their lack of participation means a country unable to compete. Oppressing minorities give me wrong signals and show lack of stability. It is in our self interest to do what we are not doing.
I don’t think it has anything to do with ahmadis being declared as kafirs. One of the core beliefs of Islam is to believe that Prophet Muhammad PBUH is the last messenger and the Prophet of Islam. Anyone disagreeing with that is automatically out of Islam. That being said this absolutely does not mean that they have no right to live in Pakistan. They can do anything they want and believe in anything while living in Pakistan.
If you spent 1/10th the time researching than pretending to be a pseudo intellectual, Ahmadi Qadiyanis were declared non-muslims before Pakistan was even formed so it was natural this would be represented in the country that claimed it was for Islam. Please use some of your intelligence to aid in the discourse rather than being worse than the mindless zombie OP is criticising. Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:that the Prophet (ﷺ) said to 'Ali: "You are to me in the position that Harun was to Musa, except that there is no Prophet after me." Jami\` at-Tirmidhi 3730 Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "My similitude in comparison with the other prophets before me, is that of a man who has built a house nicely and beautifully, except for a place of one brick in a corner. The people go about it and wonder at its beauty, but say: 'Would that this brick be put in its place!' So I am that brick, and I am the last of the Prophets." Sahih al-Bukhari 3535 It is Ijma' (consensus) of the Ummah that you are not a Muslim if you believe there can be a new Prophet after Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him. Prophet Isa (Jesus) peace be upon him is not a new prophet so when he returns to finish his life, it won't mean a new Prophet with a new ummah has come. Prophet Isa peace be upon him will be part of the ummah of Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him. If you are Ahmadi Qadiyani, I suggest you come back to Islam. I welcome you wholeheartedly.
lol.
The interesting thing about all of this is that the zombies you called religious are not really religious at all. It’s a facade. They don’t actually follow Islamic teachings but use the facade to have power over others. It is a given that minorities should be treated well even if we disagree with their beliefs. That is something that is both secular and actually Islamic. The biggest mistake Pakistanis made was to leave religion up to uneducated mullahs and pirs instead of maintaining high quality education with a proper ijaza system. Ignorance is fought best with actual knowledge.
Brother, when you talk about Islam and Muslims it is best to speak with respect. I understand you are commenting with sincere intentions but when you talk badly about a group of people that the masses respect then you will inevitably end up in a quagmire of internal arguments leading to a lot of resentment. Allah teaches us to convey Islam with wisdom. This means not just "telling it like it is" but also taking into account the sentiments of the people. Allah knows Best. May he guide us all to the righteous path and make us steadfast on it. "Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is \[rightly\] guided." Quran 16:125
ask yourself honestly, "does Islam advocate for a secular government?", it's one thing to be a zombie, and by no means is this current zombie society as you say a proper Islamic country, but secularism isn't the way
Not sure what you mean by "religious zombies", the term is new to me, but judging by the things you wrote, if you mean the uneducated nutjobs and mullahs who don't even know Arabic but have memorized the Qurān just as a thing to chant without understanding it, and who cause shameful events such as the Ichra incident, I'm totally with you, they not only have a part in ruining this beautiful country, they are also double guilty for defaming Islām itself, because of their own folly, claiming to be the representatives of a religion they clearly know nothing about. But if you consider religion itself to be the "cause" of our issues, then we're going to have a problem. Also, the point you made about India's secularism vs Pakistan being a "kattar Muslim desh with no rights to minorities" sir, first of all, understand that Pakistan is NOT a "muslim desh" at all in terms of laws, and you seem to have no knowledge of how a "Muslim desh" is supposed to deal with non-muslim minorities if you think they have no rights under Islāmic Law. Secondly, what India "should be", Secular or religious, should be upto the Indian majority to decide. The same applies to Pakistan, and no Pakistani majority wants secularism, as of recent surveys over 70% of Pakistani youth wants an Islamic Order, so it's actually very logical to have an Islamic Shariah based system in Pakistan (which btw, we have never had) and a secular governement in India. Regardless, even if you are uninformed on what Shariah is Vs. the lie Pakistan's government and people demonstrate, I can't really blame you because the Muslims haven't really shown an example of life according to the Qurān and Sunnah either, which goes back to the first point I made. These namesake religious mullah idiots and uneducated molvis need to be exposed and removed from any public connection to Islām at all, they do not represent sane and educated Muslims.
I have zero issues with you believing in islam or any religion for that matter. Secondly, doesn’t matter if islam gives rights or not. If we want to live in a tolerant, peaceful society, we need to agree on certain fundamental points regardless of religion. One of which, everyone has the right to live no matter their faith.
Exactly, that's what secularism is about. It doesn't matter if you think Islam is greatest religion and has answers to every problem, you are free to have this opinion but you still can't impose this on the whole country. Islam may have answers but your interpretation might not be same as other people that's why we need secular laws that gives right to everyone regardless of religion and you can practice Islam or any other religion without any problem as long as it doesn't involve voilence on others.
You're mistaken terribly on difference of interpretation when it comes to governance laws- there is no disagreement on interpretation of Laws of Governance in Islam. Neither did anyone say that if you're under a Shariah system, you can't have an opinion that Shariah isn't the best system, or that you can't debate it in an intellectual manner. Nor are you forced to live your life as a Muslim if you are living in a Shariah-driven country. "Imposing" of Islam on Pakistan will be according to the democratic will of the people, and if they choose to do so, the seculars should take their merchandise and sell it elsewhere. >you can practice Islam or any other religion without any problem as long as it doesn't involve voilence on others. Yes, you can do precisely that under a truly Shariah-based system of Governance, and you will soon be able to do so in Pakistan, insha'Allah.
That is called tyranny of the majority. That is why in a democracy there is constitutional protection for certain freedoms. Religion or majority rule can not be used to take away rights of others just because majority deem it so. As India is a secular country the courts will not allow imposition of Hinduism on others or the right of minorities to practice their way of life even if it they want to be agnostic. There can never be a blasphemy law. No Faith is Supreme.
I think tyranny is imposing by force a set of rules and regulations on a stark (99.4%) majority of people that do not want those rules to be imposed onto them. Give them what they want, while protecting each and every civil and religious right of the minorities. That's what Shariah is. >As India is a secular country the courts will not allow imposition of Hinduism on others or the right of minorities to practice their way of life even if it they want to be agnostic. Yeah, because India isn't 99% Hindu. And you make this childish claim that "courts won't allow", yet despite having a HUGE non-hindu (and muslim) population in India, everyone can see just how much influence the Hindutva BJP has had on India. Its a nice thing to say on reddit what you wrote, but the reality is different. >No Faith is Supreme. That's what you think, and you are free to continue thinking that. It won't change what's true, and it certainly won't change the opinion of 99.4% of Pakistanis.
>india is a secular country Yeah only in name
How so? Can you name some rights that are denied only to Muslims in India? Also, can you let us know any Islamic country that gives more rights to its minorities than what Muslims enjoy in India?
Inshallah
What exactly gives you the indication that will be happening anytime soon?
Hope in the [young Pakistani generation, who are waking up from the slumber of depravity.](https://muslimskeptic.com/2023/05/03/pakistans-youth-irreligious/)
> I have zero issues with you believing in islam or any religion for that matter. True, no one should have any issues, and the Islamic Shariah gives them all these rights and more.
Brother i have no issues with interpretation. Hell, Im alright with Pakistan using certain islamic laws agreed upon by all muslims. But before that, we, Pakistanis, need to agree upon a fundamental set of points. To make it more clear, an Hindu and Sikh do not accept islamic law. But they are human beings and they have rights. These rights should be agreed upon as basic frame first.
>To make it more clear, an Hindu and Sikh do not accept islamic law. But they are human beings and they have rights. These rights should be agreed upon as basic frame first. Yes sir, 300% I agree with you, infact if I was the one making laws, if a Muslim messes with a Hindu or a Sikh (or any non Muslim) and the non muslim seeks legal protection, I'd make the Muslim an example in front of everyone. This is what Shariah entails. All minorities, Muslim or non muslim, have their life, their respect and their property (assets + cash) protected by the Islamic government in the same (or an even stronger) manner than that of a Muslim. You're spot on. The reason this is not the case in Pakistan is because its not Shariah driven, its all secular disgust up there on the policy level.
How come that "secular disgust" for other countries is doing so much better than Pakistan?
Because they are secular governements over a people that want secularism. Furthermore, Pakistan doing terrible has nothing to do with the system of Goverment itself, corruption can exist and eat up any system, and that's what we have here.
What you said. There’s no Islamic basis for a “molvi” or “mullah” and it’s strictly a subcontinent/persian thing that came way after the death of the last of the sahaba. Either someone is a scholar or student of knowledge or they’re just a layman. A molvi is essentially a layman with a loud mouth and at least looks more religious (doesn’t mean anything unfortunately, even a bearded topi wearing guy like me trusts the religious looking types the least because they’ve been the only ones to successfully scam me). You’d think someone who has spent their entire life in Pakistan would take everything with a grain of salt but NOPE, people are willing to kill just because some dude in a imamah told them to. Willing to “dance on air” like Mumtaz Qadri for absolutely nothing (you can’t just murder your boss because you don’t like what he says, especially if your job is protecting him, the Prophet (saws) literally sent people away from battles because they had previously made promises just to save their lives, he took that so seriously). I am religious and I would love to see more of real Islam in Pakistan and I wish those who are against it would just see that those of us that actually know the religion hate these molvis just as much if not more than you. It should be a criminal offense to claim to be a scholar/making a fatwa without knowing Arabic (how can you make a fatwa if you can’t understand the nuance of the Arabic language, it’s beyond just native level of speaking, it’s a mastery in the Arabic language that one needs to be a scholar? You really want to face Allah on the day of judgement for a bad fatwa that wasn’t in good faith? At least a scholar who gets it wrong is rewarded once for trying). TLDR: Religion ain’t the problem. Charlatans are.
agreed. anything can be taken out of context, misinterpreted, abused and used as a tool for violence.
I feel like a lot of people fear the Shariah because they don’t understand it, I imagine no one here has even studied the Shariah law properly, but they might advocate against it because the west says “Shariah bad.” Does anyone even know what “Shariah” means? The west shouldn’t have so much power over your thinking that you start opposing or being afraid of ideas you don’t even know the meaning on. On one hand you all want to oppose Amreeki gooray and on the other you oppose or are afraid of something you are ignorant about because the Amreeki goora called it bad. That isn’t critical thinking, I advice everyone who’s either afraid of Shariah or against it to genuinely research about it.
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>What is the punishment for leaving Islam under Sharia? The same punishment one gets for committing treason in a secular country. (Only for muslims) >What is the punishment for blasphemy? Depends on what kinda blasphemy. >What is the punishment for extramarital sex? One hundred lashes and be stoned to death. And there's nothing wrong with that. (Only for muslims)
Haq
>a lot of people fear the Shariah because they don’t understand it, I imagine no one here has even studied the Shariah law 100%, and it's not by chance, it's by deliberate programming against Shariah and Islām in general by the West (_or those that run the West_ 👀) to make Pakistanis and Muslims in general feel Shariah, and by extension Islām itself is "outdated" or is "a 7th century set of rules" to eventually break their confidence and turn them into disserters. Its honestly sad seeing people advocating against Shariah and in favour of a failed ideology like liberalism and secularism, clearly they have no idea what they're rejecting, and what they're desiring for.
It seems pretty clear to me you haven’t properly read and understood Islam. Sirat aur tafseer padhke dekho bhaiyya
Sorry no one is going to take an Islamophobe Indian Hindu seriously when he lies about Tafīrs, but now that you mention it, I've read two- Tafhīm ul Qurān and Tafsīr Ibn Kaseer, and I'm currently reading a third one. Now you're exposed, goodbye.
I'm about to eat a delicious plate of beef.
Well I am a Sikh of non-Pakistani origin so take my opinion with a grain of salt. But anyway: The reality is that Islam is an integral part of Pakistan both culturally and historically. I think a secular Pakistan is wildly unrealistic. Moreover, the reality on the ground is that most Pakistani Muslims are quite attached to their faith, it is the foundation of their lives. In that way you are like most Hindu Indians, who lived under a secular government for 70-so years. They are now tearing down that secular government with ease, because it was not an accurate reflection of their society. If secularism is imposed top-down in Pakistan, eventually it will be torn down in the same way. Rather than aiming for a secular government, Pakistan should aim to improve the education and living standards of its people. If Pakistani Muslims have more, higher-paying jobs, better housing and utilities, etc. then the motives that radicalize people to join TLP or worse organizations will fade. Life will get better for women and minorities as a result.
If you think they join TLP, Laskar and kill common folk because they don't have jobs or utilities, you're mistaken.
>sada salam khatre ma ha, sar tan se juda, tu matlab sex kerne lag jae, purhna mat gumrah ho jao ga No Pakistani here says this lmfao, you're fighting phantoms.
Kbhi ap fajar k time uthain or masjid k speakers sa anay wali awaz sunain pata nhi konsay wonderland main reh rhay hain but here in the middle of the most populated city of Punjab I every single day freaking here chants of Sir tan sa juda and the molvi recite this loudly in speakers and 100s of naive young children repeat after him.
>sada salam khatre ma ha Lmao that's exactly what indian hindus chant all day long
Me when minority: 😡
I am an Indian and an Hindu brother. I would just add that biggest way to make others admire your religion is to practice love, warmth and kindness to others. I got all my faith in Islam by seeing one Shahrukh khan who respects every religion, worships his God and loves everyone, than 1 million hard liners fighting and arguing. Same for few of my friends. Even if anyone wants Islam to rule the world, love is the way.
Huge respect to Abdus Salam 🏆
It is OUR fault (non religious zombies) for not offering them an off-ramp off religion. I have gotten many zombies to view society differently. Engage!
True. And it also doesn’t mean one stop believing or start having random sex (as someone else pointed out in a different thread). Just that respect difference of opinion and give everyone right to live.
Thing is Pakistan ain't following Islam, they try to make am interpretation which fit in with their school of thought and staunchly follow that. Every school of thought is doing this, you are talking about minorities, bro Muslim who try to practice Islam according to Quran and Sunnah isn't safe either. He if propagates and tells them that they are promoting Shirk, he's declared a gustakh and most likely killed. Our whole society is build on Shirk now, and cult following of sects have led us to this. The true teaching of Quran and Ahadith are all ignored and emphasis is on following your own sect even if it contradicts with the Quran and Sunnah. All other sects are inferior to your sect, your sect is the only one going to Jannah, your sects Sheikh is the supreme authority and anyone who questions your Shiakh is misguided and has been led astray. This is all the brainwashing done to a child since forever in Pak, whatelse you expect to happen. On the other hand there are those liberals who hate Islam, don't wanna follow any part of it, consider themselves cool and privileged by making fun of the religion, only highlights the problems of a particular sect of Islam if they are being funded by the other. So to sum it up that's what a society would end up with, If you don't follow the Religion with its true meaning
Seeing people double down and insisting that the problem is that we are not implementing "real" Islam and "real" shariah. There will always be disagreements on that. Always. What they are insisting on is a utopian idea that has no basis in reality.
Egyptian here , Accusing the islam to all your problems is not right at all , and pakistan is an Example of a secular rule that will do anything for US so they stay in power , to cut it short 1- Military Dictatorship that doesn't think of anything except keeping himself in power and cause trouble more than good , and when you need a real army for real fighting , you will be amazed how useless and business destroyed the army and its people 2- \`taking endless debt so you can take the money for yourself and your whole family , and let your country fall 3- lacking of good education that cause the people to understand ( will make it harder to be rule ) so letting people be stupid and for final words , Pakistan is 125 billion dollar in debt , did Islam went to IMF to take the money and buy stupid stuff ?
Extreme Concentration of power is Pakistan’s number one problem. Religious nuts are second but arguably more deeper. They hinder critical thinking, asking questions and wreak havoc for nonsensical issues. All other problems stem from these two. Pakistan is not secular. No secular system would require president to be muslim. A secular system has three basic principles: 1) everyone is free to practice their religion 2) everyone has certain fundamental rights and) if there is clash between 1 and 2, fundamental rights will prevail.
He blamed religious Zombies meaning extremists. He didn't blame the religion? Maybe read again.
Habibi first of all he's accusing illiterate extremists not Islam. Pakistan is neither secular not religious (and I'm saying this as someone who opposes secularism). This country is a jungle where the elites can decide whatever they want. Blaming the West is NOT the answer coz our own people are equally problematic and hypocritical. I always say this: even if we were atheists our problems would still be there UNTIL we agree to change our ways. Religion has got nothing to do with it. 1. I fully agree with you. 2. True 3. True but like point 2 it's how elites around the world keep their rule strong: keep people divided, give them some bread, some circus, and they will never question you OR just torture them when it comes to basic necessities of living (the case with Pakistan) and they will never have the time to question you. Pakistan owes money not just to IMF but also to Gulf Arabs (with interest mind you) and China (this one the real amount is kept secret from public). Corrupt rulers not Islam or any other country are to blame for this pitiful state of this country. We people of Pakistan are lazy hypocrites who only cry when a calamity effects us and have no empathy for others. We deserve what's happening to us.
Preach.
Islam is in danger Muslim Ummah is in danger Woh kahan say kahan nikal gaye aur hum gareeb kay gareeb hee rehgaye
Snooping around in people's private matters or logon ka bistar main ghus ker religious tabhleegh is the main cause behind the fanatic behaviour. Who is a mullah to tell you to live your life? All these are just grifters who want to take your money. Islamically speaking, there's no concept of mullah or molvi. ANY MUSLIM can lead a PRAYER, PERFORM NiKKAH, JANAZAH.
If u mean ppl who have never even once read the Quran in Urdu and think they have a moral high ground just cause they listen to a retarded molvie then yes u are right they are just as bad as all the wannabe american and liberals of Pakistan
I agree that minorities should get their rights but >Worse, if you think India should embrace secularism and treat their minorities well but Pakistan should be kattar muslim desh with no regards for minorities. Unlike india, Pakistan doesn't pretend to be secular. It's up to India if they wanna be a "hindu rashtra" as they call it, but since partition, india has been pretending to be secular when it clearly isn't.
Well, the current BJP government is not pretending anymore.
Another day, another idiot. I've seen enough bout this Sh*ty mindset. From mid feb, desi liberals r so obsessed with calling all muslims as extremists But whenever u ask bout what they actually know about islam or read about islam. their response: I've seen enough, or i have heard enough. get ur facts right then go on posting n then debates
This is what happens when comprehension and teaching of religion is left to the people that don't understand it themselves. Religion can be practiced in a civilised manner. They only seek a reason to stay relevant by creating a nuisance value. A Muslim is a person in whose presence everyone feels safe be it a believer or a non believer, that is understood at all levels, those who try to mould the religion for their own nefarious designs are to be rooted out from society. The only solution is to promote sensible and well educated Muslim leaders who promote similarities rather than differences. Mind it, if all religious differences are settled today people would still be fighting over language, provinces, colour, caste's and creed. We as a nation have a long road to cover before becoming a civilised nation. We have examples of other civilised Muslim nations which are progressing without these issues. Tameez ghar se sikhai jati hai, tameez ki kami hai bas.
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I agree.
If anything is ruining Pakistan it has been the undermining of merit, militarisation, the improper understanding of deen (like Talibanis following their culture and not deen properly) and the refusal to implement proper due process (which is fundamental in islamic governance models). Tribalism, nepotism etc. that is engrianed in Pak is a curse. The only thing that has given the individual pakistani some shred of dignity has been deen. You are the type of hypocrite who idealises radical secularism that persecutes conservatism, family values, and collectivism. The same ideology that bans the niqab in France (despite its supposed emphasis on 'free choice'), the ideology that has destroyed the concept of family in the western world (leading to fatherless individualistic consumerism), the ideology that has perverted the natural order of life (LGBTQ, vice etc.), and an ideology that has failed on every single level(only you're too enamored by superficial wealth to appreciate its failure on all levels -including financially). My brother, travel the world and you'll find that Pak has failed on a few levels (which we should correct with appropriate solutions) but the ideology you subscribe to is an abject failure on all. Destroyed economies (held afloat my blatant manipulation, which will continue until fiat currency dies), no family structures, no moral code (to the extent that absolute freaks are selling ideology to kids in classrooms), vice and perversion abound, and directionless (chasing sex and fiat but strongly unfulfilled).
Its because of different sects in Islam :) which leads to different way of thinking and doing things.
bro if u r a religious person then it will mean that u respect beliefs of a minority, dont chant shit, and will basically be the person Prophet Muhammad (SAW) would want us to become by following his teachings. Make Allah (SWT) make us all religious and devoted to Allah
MashAllah you have achieved top zombie level. Congratulations.
No he's not. Please at least learn about the Islamic belief if you are going to criticise it. Islam forbids oppression against anyone. Here is the evidence: Jabir b. Abdullah reported that two young men, one from the Muhajirin (emigrants) and the other one from the Angr (helpers) fell into dispute and the Muhajir called his fellow Muhajirin, and the Ansari (the helper) called the Ansar (for help). In the meanwhile, Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came there and said: What is this, the proclamation of the days of jahiliya (ignorance)? They said: Allah's Messenger, there is nothing serious. The two young men fell into dispute and the one struck at the back of the other. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Well, a person should help his brother whether he is an oppressor or an oppressed. If he is the oppressor he should prevent him from doing it, for that is his help; and if he is the oppressed he should be helped (against oppression). Sahih Muslim 2584a Islam is the most tolerant religion in the world. It is a Just religion. You sir have been listening to people who are uneducated and have been influenced by them. I request you learn about Islam from someone who is knowledgeable before you start criticising. Just to give you some perspective, the richest the Indian Subcontinent ever got was under the Mughal Empire. During this time Muslims were in power and they were treating the Hindus and Sikhs with a lot of respect and Justice. In fact, the Dalits, which are the lowest caste in Hinduism, were literally considered untouchables and thus despised by other Hindus. It was Babar who came and saw how ridiculous this was and worked to stamp out this nasty caste system to get the Hindus working together alongside the Muslims. I sincerely request you read some Islamic rulings regarding treatment of Hindus and Sikhs. You will honestly be shocked. Islam is God's true religion. I welcome you to Islam.
Islam will prevail over all the earth. Just not how Pakistanis perceive it.
Problem is that they’re idol worshippers. Instead of basing their identity on Islamic values, they make Islam a part of their identity simply because that’s what they were born into. They make their own version of Allah and put it on a shelf, then attribute whatever qualities they want to it. And you can tell this because they’re always obsessed with materialistic, insignificant things.
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Congratulations, my brother. You have achieved top zombie level. For your satisfaction, Im sunni muslim and I love Holy Prophet.
If you are a Muslim then you should not be advocating for secularism.
If this is about the woman who had a witch like lettering on her self of words from the quran (حلو) mentioned 4 times in quran...
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Salam Alaykum The watering down and sectarianism that Islam has been morphed into is actual antithetical to what Islam calls towards. One of the roles of the Imam, Masjid and Mullah is to ensure the preservation of the rights of the population against government tyranny. The issue here is that the Islamic scholarship is filled with ignorant people who actually dont understand Islamic principles, or hypocrites that aid the government in surpressing people. There is a hadith of the prophet SAW that describes these people: Umar ibn al-Khattab reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, among what I fear most for my nation is every hypocrite with a knowledgeable tongue.” Source: Musnad Aḥmad 140 It is important to compartmentalise each issue holding the country down. The effects of failed Islamic leadership are not explicitly the cause of the failed government and vice versa. If the population is not raised on good morals and principles based on Islamic concepts, then you will never see Islam implemented correctly.
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Well I doubt your targeted demographic exists on reddit but yeah
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Conveniently exclude the effing liberals and elitist, the biggest thorn in the progress of Pakistan. How many incidents in regards to minorities occurred last year? Reddit philosophers blaming everything on religion.
And the most stupid part is that these idiots who eat pig nihari for breakfast don't even realize that their actions hardly bring anyone towards Islam but instead turn people away from it. Apostasy in Iran skyrocketed under the mullah regime because of their tyranny and hypocrisy. I'm afraid Taliban will give us the same results in Afghanistan. Yet these idiots haven't realized anything
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[This is](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/s/k5Acn4YtTO) pak people's problem