why no choice islam is the perfect system and it is already implemented in The Emirate of Afghanistan. Why you going to a country built with haram ka interest-riddled paisa?
For the only very reason countless jews and Christians immigrated to the countries under the Ottoman Empire ( The empire who had complet Islamic rules and was 180 degree flip of their views)
" High Standards of Living" and religion doesn't hold a cap on that.
Christianity and Judaism are not systems of government so you can personally believe in one God and go to a country where the ruler believes in another. There's no contradiction
But you can't believe in a system of government handed down by God and then immigrate away from it to a system you think is the opposite of what God wants. That is hypocritical.
Think about it. How many of these jews wanted to replace ottoman rule withl the system they were escaping from?
Saying that this world is a place for trials and tribulations only to go for a kafir system due to high standards of living...kuch sharam karo
I completely understand your point bro. But we have been instructed to migrate when conditions aren't good in our country. But I do agree on that point.
" Migrating to Islamic nations" but only when we have one. Just for your info AFG doesn't follow the caliph system yet. Yeah some rules are there and it ain't holistic.
we haven't found the perfect capitalism implementation yet but people are immigrating away from partial shariah to partial capitalism.
then how can you blame for saudi and other Muslim governments for selling Islamic value for capital gains
Okay if again we've to be BLINDFOLDED then let it be. But I am sure you wouldn't disagree that people with the characteristics mentioned in the post exist in Pakistan.
Let's talk about the real thing instead of needling the thread.
I believe you're the most opressed man in Pakistan. Even more opressed than the Hindu girls who are forcibly converted, Christians who are burned alive, Shias who are bombed and Balcoh who are abducted under enforced disappearences. Happy now?
Are you really this dense ya jaan boojh kay kar rahay ho?
You do realize that leaving Islam is punishable by death, right?
You also know what would happen to someone who openly says those words in public in Pakistan, right?
Ajeeb.
Did I say announcing it publicly? But I got your point..
" So we can at least have this in our hearts that we won't follow Islam or we'll hate its rules till death or we don't comply with being Muslims
Right?
You see the problem with us is we fail to get on the underlying problems and keep dwelling on needless claims
Dear sir, please quote the exact Article of Pakistani constitution that endorses punishment of apostasy as you have claimed. Just quote the article number and nothing else. Waiting for it.
The original comment mentioned Islam and not Pakistan. Here are some Ahadith mentioning death as punishment for apostacy:
https://sunnah.com/nasai:4058
https://sunnah.com/nasai:4060
https://sunnah.com/nasai:4061
https://sunnah.com/nasai:4062
https://sunnah.com/nasai:4063
https://sunnah.com/nasai:4064
https://sunnah.com/nasai:4065
https://sunnah.com/nasai:4066
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6922
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6923
https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:2535
https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:2533
https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:1458
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:7157
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3017
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6899
https://sunnah.com/mishkat:3533
We are discussing this in a Pakistani sub, and Pakistani Law follows constitution and not Islamic law completely. So I am still waiting for you to quote the clause in Pakistani constitution that implements the punishment you claimed.
you need to learn how to read, because in no comment has anyone said that the legal punishment of apostacy in Pakistan is death. the original comment alluded to the lynchings, in the third sentence.
you are just saving face and deliberately putting up a show of not knowing what will happen to someone who apostacizes publicly in Pakistan, legally or otherwise.
>"in no comment has anyone said that the legal punishment of apostacy in Pakistan is death"
So you were spreading fear over a punishment which was not at all in place in Pakistani society, because OP is specifically asking about the Pakistani society, in case you missed it.
ah yes, someone who apostacizes publicly will totally not be lynched to death by rabid fanatics by sunset. you've reached peak awareness, don't go any further.
I have met people who have done that, but their most profound fear comes from reaction from their parents or close family members and not the random person in the society, unless he willingly opts for blasphemy as a fun.
To bhaayi public lynchings Ethiopian society main hoti hain? Abhi aik banday ko Nepali society main zinda jalaaya hai Swat main? PAKISTANI society main hi jalaaya hai.
Are you for real? Seriously?
Public lynchings is a failure of law enforcements for not providing security, and more people are gunned down during robbery attempts than religious extremism, so society as a whole is insecure at the moment, not just any particular group. But fact remains the same, constitution doesn't endorse penalty for apostacy at the moment.
Your “fact” is utterly irrelevant to what is being discussed here. You are only holding on to it because you know perfectly well by now that your original reply was bullshit but are now trying to save face — which you are failing miserably at.
The reason they can’t say that openly is that they WILL. BE. KILLED. IN. PAKISTAN. if they say that. Simple as that. Stop bringing your constitutional nonsense here when it’s absolutely irrelevant.
Then you can keep waiting if you are so blind to see that people in Pakistan don’t need the constitution to kill people in the name of Islam very routinely.
The post is asking, “WhY cAn’T tHeY rEjEcT tHe KaLmA aNd SaY…” And I am telling you exactly why they can’t say that openly because they would be KILLED! Islam itself demands for them to be killed because apostasy is punishable by death, and people WILL and HAVE killed in Pakistan for saying less than that.
But you want to wait for a reference from Pakistani Law when it wasn’t even mentioned and has nothing to do with people killing in the name of Islam. As if that will stop people from killing an ex-Muslim. Keep the delusion up. SMH.
Are you for real? I didn't mean announcing this publicly.. did you guys even know how Grammar works??? All I asked was
" Why aren't these satisfied internally with their path?" And If you're an apostate then you can state freely here. It's as simple as that.
No need to fake yourself.
Yeah that's the way. If you love to hate Allah, his prophet and Islamic laws then let just be it.
The next question would be "why do you even have to be an apostate after knowing the personality of our beautiful prophet sallallaho alihe wasallam" but that's for another post
Good luck.
Sorry but you don't know him even a bit. Don't worry I won't throw fatwas at you like common mullahs. But you see you're being hypocrite again
That's exactly what I was aiming at in this post. If you don't like his ideas, his RELEGION and his god then stop faking your connection with him.
May Allah guide us all.
It doesn't matter what the constitution says, ground reality is people get lynched for a lot less so getting killed is a real possibility. The majority of Pakistan also supports the death penalty for leaving Islam.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01/64-percent-of-muslims-in-egypt-and-pakistan-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01/64-percent-of-muslims-in-egypt-and-pakistan-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/
Is there an article that allows lynching?! Does it stop people getting lynched? The post was why don't they denounce openly, the reason is their life would be in danger.
I don't know why you are obsessing over proof of something that no one in this thread claimed.
Never seen apostates in peril, but ahmadis frequently cross lines to incite violence, making them sort of antisocial. After all they are the ones with goofy understanding of Islam and yet declares the other ones to be non muslims, thus inciting anger.
Dear sir, why on earth are you waiting for the Article of Pakistani Constitution? Do you not know it is punishable by death in Islam ITSELF? Have you not seen that the people of Pakistan don’t need the constitution to say something — that they kill when they think Islam endorses killing (and in this case Islam is ACTUALLY endorsing killing)?
Matlab are you expecting ex-Muslims to risk saying that openly kionkay the constitution doesn’t say kill them? Is that what your “gotcha” moment was going to be?
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This ain't the case anymore. You don't need to announce publicly that you're an apostate. Many are doing with their actions in various unis of Pakistan and no one's there to stop them...
Well no one's so far answered the question in the post " Why are we hypocrites when it comes to Islam"
My second post would be
" WHY MUSLIMS HACE TO BE AN APOSTATE"
I know many atheists in Pakistan. None of them wants to get killed so that's why they don't openly declare their atheism. Call me hypocrite but I think that's fairly reasonably excuse to keep up the Muslim appearance even if you don't believe a word of it.
i can also say that people who believe in flying horses and cracking of a celestial object are idiots, but i am better than that because you lot love to be the victim
Hahah! No one believes in flying horses bro.... Grow up... Btw Do u have a map? Because you are lost in a sea of ignorance... Lol🤣🤣 bro learned islam from reels haha
Exactly don't be a Hypocrite just say this..
But this argument is baseless. If I agree on that. Then Einstein, Newton and Hawking would be the biggest idiots for letting us believe in...
Falling off an apple
Big bang theory
Water on Mars
Theory of relativity
And the concept of GOD
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Pakistanis on Instagram are best example of that. Whenever there's an islamic video saying orat ko parda krna chaye they'll comment ACCHAA?? MARD KO KYA HUKAM HA PHR??? .....Like just listen to what you are ordered by Allah instead of arguing. Mard ko bhi hukam ha pr tum to suno pahlay tumhai kya bola ja raha ha.....And they all stop other people who are advising the sinners. They say DON'T JUDGE US NE APNI QABAR MAI JANA HA. Its like challanging Allah.
I don't know bro you tell me if this hypocrisy is ok: asking for sharia but immigrating to the US instead of Afghanistan
Can't really get it bro. Can you make it more clear. "Did you mean migrating when you have no choice is hypocrisy?"
why no choice islam is the perfect system and it is already implemented in The Emirate of Afghanistan. Why you going to a country built with haram ka interest-riddled paisa?
For the only very reason countless jews and Christians immigrated to the countries under the Ottoman Empire ( The empire who had complet Islamic rules and was 180 degree flip of their views) " High Standards of Living" and religion doesn't hold a cap on that.
Christianity and Judaism are not systems of government so you can personally believe in one God and go to a country where the ruler believes in another. There's no contradiction But you can't believe in a system of government handed down by God and then immigrate away from it to a system you think is the opposite of what God wants. That is hypocritical. Think about it. How many of these jews wanted to replace ottoman rule withl the system they were escaping from? Saying that this world is a place for trials and tribulations only to go for a kafir system due to high standards of living...kuch sharam karo
I completely understand your point bro. But we have been instructed to migrate when conditions aren't good in our country. But I do agree on that point. " Migrating to Islamic nations" but only when we have one. Just for your info AFG doesn't follow the caliph system yet. Yeah some rules are there and it ain't holistic.
we haven't found the perfect capitalism implementation yet but people are immigrating away from partial shariah to partial capitalism. then how can you blame for saudi and other Muslim governments for selling Islamic value for capital gains
First of all there's no such thing as liberalists
Yeah, what does he mean by that?
For me anyone who idealises the already rotten mediaeval culture of Europe is a liberalist. They also call them "MODERN MUSLIMS"...
Okay if again we've to be BLINDFOLDED then let it be. But I am sure you wouldn't disagree that people with the characteristics mentioned in the post exist in Pakistan. Let's talk about the real thing instead of needling the thread.
Awww, Poor OP is being opressed. Persecution fetish much?
I knew this comment would roll out. When they don't have any logical counter arguments they attack personally. Keep going on..
I believe you're the most opressed man in Pakistan. Even more opressed than the Hindu girls who are forcibly converted, Christians who are burned alive, Shias who are bombed and Balcoh who are abducted under enforced disappearences. Happy now?
You're still needling the thread. Comment if you've got logical arguments..Grow up kid
Struck a nerve lmao
Are you really this dense ya jaan boojh kay kar rahay ho? You do realize that leaving Islam is punishable by death, right? You also know what would happen to someone who openly says those words in public in Pakistan, right? Ajeeb.
Did I say announcing it publicly? But I got your point.. " So we can at least have this in our hearts that we won't follow Islam or we'll hate its rules till death or we don't comply with being Muslims Right? You see the problem with us is we fail to get on the underlying problems and keep dwelling on needless claims
Dear sir, please quote the exact Article of Pakistani constitution that endorses punishment of apostasy as you have claimed. Just quote the article number and nothing else. Waiting for it.
The original comment mentioned Islam and not Pakistan. Here are some Ahadith mentioning death as punishment for apostacy: https://sunnah.com/nasai:4058 https://sunnah.com/nasai:4060 https://sunnah.com/nasai:4061 https://sunnah.com/nasai:4062 https://sunnah.com/nasai:4063 https://sunnah.com/nasai:4064 https://sunnah.com/nasai:4065 https://sunnah.com/nasai:4066 https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6922 https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6923 https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:2535 https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:2533 https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:1458 https://sunnah.com/bukhari:7157 https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3017 https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6899 https://sunnah.com/mishkat:3533
Nice work, bro!!
We are discussing this in a Pakistani sub, and Pakistani Law follows constitution and not Islamic law completely. So I am still waiting for you to quote the clause in Pakistani constitution that implements the punishment you claimed.
you need to learn how to read, because in no comment has anyone said that the legal punishment of apostacy in Pakistan is death. the original comment alluded to the lynchings, in the third sentence. you are just saving face and deliberately putting up a show of not knowing what will happen to someone who apostacizes publicly in Pakistan, legally or otherwise.
>"in no comment has anyone said that the legal punishment of apostacy in Pakistan is death" So you were spreading fear over a punishment which was not at all in place in Pakistani society, because OP is specifically asking about the Pakistani society, in case you missed it.
ah yes, someone who apostacizes publicly will totally not be lynched to death by rabid fanatics by sunset. you've reached peak awareness, don't go any further.
I have met people who have done that, but their most profound fear comes from reaction from their parents or close family members and not the random person in the society, unless he willingly opts for blasphemy as a fun.
To bhaayi public lynchings Ethiopian society main hoti hain? Abhi aik banday ko Nepali society main zinda jalaaya hai Swat main? PAKISTANI society main hi jalaaya hai. Are you for real? Seriously?
what else to expect from a braindead Sahil Adeem fanboy
There’s braindead, and then there’s this guy. This guy is something else.
Public lynchings is a failure of law enforcements for not providing security, and more people are gunned down during robbery attempts than religious extremism, so society as a whole is insecure at the moment, not just any particular group. But fact remains the same, constitution doesn't endorse penalty for apostacy at the moment.
Your “fact” is utterly irrelevant to what is being discussed here. You are only holding on to it because you know perfectly well by now that your original reply was bullshit but are now trying to save face — which you are failing miserably at. The reason they can’t say that openly is that they WILL. BE. KILLED. IN. PAKISTAN. if they say that. Simple as that. Stop bringing your constitutional nonsense here when it’s absolutely irrelevant.
Then you can keep waiting if you are so blind to see that people in Pakistan don’t need the constitution to kill people in the name of Islam very routinely. The post is asking, “WhY cAn’T tHeY rEjEcT tHe KaLmA aNd SaY…” And I am telling you exactly why they can’t say that openly because they would be KILLED! Islam itself demands for them to be killed because apostasy is punishable by death, and people WILL and HAVE killed in Pakistan for saying less than that. But you want to wait for a reference from Pakistani Law when it wasn’t even mentioned and has nothing to do with people killing in the name of Islam. As if that will stop people from killing an ex-Muslim. Keep the delusion up. SMH.
Are you for real? I didn't mean announcing this publicly.. did you guys even know how Grammar works??? All I asked was " Why aren't these satisfied internally with their path?" And If you're an apostate then you can state freely here. It's as simple as that. No need to fake yourself.
I assure you we are all very satisfied internally. There is no reason to assume we are not. And no one is faking themselves.
Yeah that's the way. If you love to hate Allah, his prophet and Islamic laws then let just be it. The next question would be "why do you even have to be an apostate after knowing the personality of our beautiful prophet sallallaho alihe wasallam" but that's for another post Good luck.
I know his personality perfectly well, that is why I am an apostate. I would not have been if I didn’t know him that well. Good luck to you too.
Sorry but you don't know him even a bit. Don't worry I won't throw fatwas at you like common mullahs. But you see you're being hypocrite again That's exactly what I was aiming at in this post. If you don't like his ideas, his RELEGION and his god then stop faking your connection with him. May Allah guide us all.
It doesn't matter what the constitution says, ground reality is people get lynched for a lot less so getting killed is a real possibility. The majority of Pakistan also supports the death penalty for leaving Islam. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01/64-percent-of-muslims-in-egypt-and-pakistan-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01/64-percent-of-muslims-in-egypt-and-pakistan-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/
>Not to mention the majority of Pakistan supports the death penalty for leaving Islam An article in Pakistani constitution for enacting it?
Is there an article that allows lynching?! Does it stop people getting lynched? The post was why don't they denounce openly, the reason is their life would be in danger. I don't know why you are obsessing over proof of something that no one in this thread claimed.
>Does it stop people getting lynched? Yes, the constitution does ensures this for every citizen, but the law enforcement fails it.
Are you trying to suggest that apostates are safe in Pakistan?
Nope, the state failed to provide security to almost all classes of people in society at the moment , not just the apostates. Its a sort of wild west.
Not everyone is equally unsafe. Apostates and Ahmadis are probably the most at risk groups.
Never seen apostates in peril, but ahmadis frequently cross lines to incite violence, making them sort of antisocial. After all they are the ones with goofy understanding of Islam and yet declares the other ones to be non muslims, thus inciting anger.
Are you a troll?
He means at the hands of extremists, not under normal rule of law, per se. The kind of people who killed Marshal Khan or Salman Taseer, etc...
Dear sir, why on earth are you waiting for the Article of Pakistani Constitution? Do you not know it is punishable by death in Islam ITSELF? Have you not seen that the people of Pakistan don’t need the constitution to say something — that they kill when they think Islam endorses killing (and in this case Islam is ACTUALLY endorsing killing)? Matlab are you expecting ex-Muslims to risk saying that openly kionkay the constitution doesn’t say kill them? Is that what your “gotcha” moment was going to be?
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do you not know we live in a country of rabid mullahs ready to slit the throat of anyone they deem does not subscribe to their idea of Islam?
This ain't the case anymore. You don't need to announce publicly that you're an apostate. Many are doing with their actions in various unis of Pakistan and no one's there to stop them... Well no one's so far answered the question in the post " Why are we hypocrites when it comes to Islam" My second post would be " WHY MUSLIMS HACE TO BE AN APOSTATE"
So everyone in Pakistani uni is a apostate? Islam itself says its a sin to call a Muslim brother kaffir. Look at yourself.
[удалено]
Which city do you live in and what sect are you my poor opressed man?
Will say that again kid... GROW UP. And learn how to throw counter arguments and be straight to the point.
Removal Reason: Deemed to be obscene, indecent or profane.
I know many atheists in Pakistan. None of them wants to get killed so that's why they don't openly declare their atheism. Call me hypocrite but I think that's fairly reasonably excuse to keep up the Muslim appearance even if you don't believe a word of it.
What strikes me the most is when these wear the personality of a Muslim only to DEFAME Islam. ( I have seen countless of these too)
What's the "personality of a Muslim" you talk about? And how do they defame Islam? Where do you see this happen?
No
[удалено]
i can also say that people who believe in flying horses and cracking of a celestial object are idiots, but i am better than that because you lot love to be the victim
Hahah! No one believes in flying horses bro.... Grow up... Btw Do u have a map? Because you are lost in a sea of ignorance... Lol🤣🤣 bro learned islam from reels haha
Exactly don't be a Hypocrite just say this.. But this argument is baseless. If I agree on that. Then Einstein, Newton and Hawking would be the biggest idiots for letting us believe in... Falling off an apple Big bang theory Water on Mars Theory of relativity And the concept of GOD
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Removal Reason: Deemed to be obscene, indecent or profane. You can debate without calling people expletives
Pakistanis on Instagram are best example of that. Whenever there's an islamic video saying orat ko parda krna chaye they'll comment ACCHAA?? MARD KO KYA HUKAM HA PHR??? .....Like just listen to what you are ordered by Allah instead of arguing. Mard ko bhi hukam ha pr tum to suno pahlay tumhai kya bola ja raha ha.....And they all stop other people who are advising the sinners. They say DON'T JUDGE US NE APNI QABAR MAI JANA HA. Its like challanging Allah.
All we can ask is forgiveness from Allah if not then believe me we are CURSED for countless punishments. We are literally the ugliest people on Earth