>No idea how to proceed at this point.
I think it's pretty simple. You pay for the necessary repairs and make sure that you continue to set aside enough money for future, unforeseen repairs.
That's home ownership for you. For better or worse, you're on the hook.
I've read it expressed as: rent is the maximum you will pay to keep a roof over your head, a mortgage payment is the minimum.
There are real costs associated with home ownership as OP is finding out. That's one of the reasons that it's very risky to stretch yourself thin just to afford your monthly mortgage payments.
mortgage payments also stop eventually if you have the money up front, and then it really pays off. For me, that would be almost $20k a year back into savings to spend on emergencies, debt, and vacations.
True.
Long-term is really the key to pitching home ownership as being "worthwhile" vs. renting for most people.
The ongoing maintenance, unexpected repairs, tax increases, and additional ownership costs all eat into (and often past) any gain you'd make vs renting for many years. And, of course, any "profit" in selling your house for more than you paid for it only really comes into play when you actually do sell it. And knowing that your house is "worth more than you paid for it" doesn't exactly calm the debt collectors when you're broke at the moment. Of course, even if you sell you'll still need a place to live. That's buying (or renting) again...
I think it's more subjective and circumstantial than many people claim it to be.
Thank you for saying this. Homeownership has been oversold as the end-all be-all to financial stability. It’s highly dependent on the specifics and timeline. And if you’re just lucky like OP (and me) and it turns out there were issues that a normal inspection couldn’t possibly find, it quickly changes the math.
So far I’m at a total of $80k to contractors over six years of homeownership. All out of pocket, no insurance claims. No cosmetic/comfort upgrades. All strictly necessary systems like HVAC, electrical panel, septic, roof. We’re not even counting all of the stuff that I have done myself. If I wrote up invoices for more in depth repairs I’ve done based on what I used to bill as a handyman that would easily be another $20k in labor alone.
100%
(and sorry to hear about your situation :( )
There's still a bit of a "gamble" to it. Yes, housing values have traditionally always gone up. But that doesn't mean EVERY house has. And, like we're saying here, it doesn't mean that the increase is still outpacing the costs put into the house. And finally, again (for the folks that missed it the first time) it means little if the value your "investment" is literally tied up in your shelter. Meaning, you can't just quickly liquidate to get that return. Selling a house usually takes time. And again, you'll still need a place to live after. If you can't pay your other bills, your house isn't of much help. Equity loan? Maybe, if you qualify. And that's still kicking the can down the road.
And you lose the ability to be as flexible. Switched jobs and may a bit less money? Switched jobs and now work on the other side of town? Sure, time to find a new apartment. Not as simple if you own a home.
I wouldn't trade it at this point, personally. But it's a bit of a labor of love. I consider the perks of my home to offset the costs. I like some privacy. I like not sharing a wall/driveway/parking/etc with a stranger. I don't mind yardwork. But I'm not handy enough to deal with a lot of issues and there are times it is overwhelming because it's simply **never ending.** There's almost no point where you are guaranteed that if you just put X amount of dollars into your home repair that you won't ever have to do it again. Best case, you hope everything performs the way it claims to, and then you start saving for replacing the thing in 5, 10, 20, 50 years. You hope the things that usually last longer than that were done by the person before you - and not the original electrical from the late 1800s.
It's tough to "complain" about right now because there's a whole lot of people who are simply priced out of buying a home right now. And I get that. I'm sympathetic. But I still think it's important to be transparent and honest about the whole picture and not just the upside. And being broke or struggling sucks, renting or not.
I couldn’t agree more. I **am* thankful that I kind of snuck in under the wire before the market went completely insane. If I was looking for my first home right now I honestly don’t know what I would do. I agree on the labor of love. It’s a pile of crap but it is my pile of crap!
I think it’s important as you said to be transparent about the fact that the grass isn’t necessarily always greener. There is a unique set of risks and unknowns, changes to lifestyle, loss of flexibility etc. Housing (land ownership) has long been a major source of generational wealth building and there’s no denying that. But that doesn’t mean that’s a guarantee.
>The ongoing maintenance, unexpected repairs, tax increases, and additional ownership costs all eat into (and often past) any gain you'd make vs renting for many years.
Its wild that so many people don't understand that you will pay for this in rent as well. Its called rent increases, which for most people, happen every single year. You also get no equity for renting, so you're technically keeping part of that monthly payment. Renting v buying is different for everyone, but its so funny to claim that you dont pay for tax increases, repairs and maintenance through higher rents, not to mention that renting for the same space is usually always higher anyways
I mean, I rented for decades before I owned. My rent didn't go up drastically in any place I stayed. We are living in unprecedented (and hopefully soon to change) times.
You know what else has gone up for most homeowners the past few years? Property taxes. Insurance. Utilities. Repairs. Gotta buy that lawn mower. Gotta put gas in it. Gotta maintain it. Got to have it repaired when needed. None of that ever gets *less* expensive. Every one of those things cost more than it did 5 or 10 years ago. I'm not sure that's ever *not* been the case.
Equity is certainly the big factor here. And again, equity is not guaranteed. Ask folks from the 2008-2012 market crash how all that equity they thought they had worked for them when they couldn't afford their homes anymore. And ended up owing more than their home was suddenly "worth".
>but its so funny to claim that you don't pay for tax increases, repairs and maintenance through higher rents
Like was said at the top of the thread:
>rent is the maximum you will pay to keep a roof over your head, a mortgage payment is the minimum.
It may indeed go up, but it's not going to kick you in the pants a month later unexpectedly as the sewer backs up, the roof leaks, the foundation shift, the racoons nest in the attic..etc etc..
But I digress - it's not my intent to make it a competition or suggest that either option is perfect or even *always* better. Both can be bad and both can be good. We were simply pointing out that it's way more common to see only complaints about renting and those seemingly implying that owning just takes away all those problems and saves so much money.
I'll add that certainly the *current* rental situation in many markets is a whole different and terrible thing than previous generations had to deal with. That doesn't change the potential downsides of ownership, but I acknowledge that it changes the variables related to benefits of renting.
I grew up working with my father who was a contractor, mostly doing kitchen and bathroom remodeling. I have been around the residential light construction industry most of my life, and I have seen an exquisitely intimate detail just how devastatingly expensive homeownership can be.
I will be honest, unless you happen to get exceptionally lucky and buy in a place that sees some sort of insane appreciation… I’m not sure it’s worth it.
Me personally, I will be renting or living in condos for my whole life.
Condos at least disperse the risk among one to two dozen other people. And the condo association should have a reserve to cover these types of things. They still might not, but its an extra buffer.
Its not really a buffer because although the assessment is spread out, its usually larger. Ie you are not just replacing a single family building roof, its a lot of roof. Not just paving a single driveway, its an entire parking lot...
>Its not really a buffer
The buffer is the reserve. The point is that in a SFH, any emergency expenses fall directly on you and if you're not prepared for it then you're SOOL.
In a condo there *should* be a reserve that takes the hit well before you get a special assessment. Now it's possible that everyone in the condo is collectively irresponsible and haven't built up any reserve. But on average it's still easier to budget than directly absorbing any emergencies.
>Ie you are not just replacing a single family building roof, its a lot of roof.
True, but it's not 1:1. A 20 person condo doesn't have 20x as much roof as a SFH. In my neighborhood, I would actually say my condo has less roof than a lot of larger SFH.
It depends on the HOA and you have to do research. I've lived in mine for 7 years and we had a single $500 assessment once when 2 of the 12 buildings in our complex burned down within the span of a few months and they had to switch insurance providers with zero notice. We have a very sizeable reserve fund that has stayed the same level, and all repairs are budgeted years in advance. In 2021 they actually paused HOA dues for 3 months because the reserve fund got too large.
This is a fascinating take
My approach has been to buy places where the house is so old and worrying that it’s literally a liability, not an asset, on top of land value and then fix it. Just finished a total rebuild leaving only the roof and brick walls intact..
People always love to brag about doing this and that's great. We're all super happy for you. But even regardless of people's know how and ability, that's not the lifestyle choice for most people. And somehow most homeowners find a way to get by without that being their hobby.
I don’t think “tax-advantaged” means what you think it means.
The costs have to be incurred by the landlord, it does not help that he may get some tax offset next year.
This is just silly.
Sure it does. The landlord can write off the expense and reduce their tax bill. I have to use after-tax dollars to make the same repair. Depending on the tax rate, the landlord effectively gets the repair at a 20-30% discount.
I know exactly what it means.
I mean yeah, you have to either have cash on hand or have the ability to secure lines of credit in order to handle repairs when you're a landlord - no different than a homeowner.
The difference is that for necessary repairs, property improvements, and business expenses in general, there are many ways in the US tax code for landlords to recoup that money by lowering their tax burden. Some has to be prorated over the life of the repair as depreciation, but tons of stuff can be claimed in the same tax year as as the expense. As a result, it's easy as a landlord to end up paying very little income tax for the rent payments you get once all of that is factored in.
Compare that to a homeowner who ends up 100% on the hook for anything not covered by insurance or a home warranty, you can definitely say that it's more tax-advantaged to fix stuff as a landlord.
You are not making sense.
I’m a landlord, I don’t “recoup” a $7,000 repair via the tax code.
I add the expense to my costs and increase rent accordingly.
I may add the receipt to the expense pile in the hopes of slightly lowering next year’s tax liabilities.
My property either makes me or loses me money, there is no tax magic coming to the rescue.
This is always my "argument" for people who say there are no benefits to renting or renting is a complete waste.
It's always homeowners comparing the worst case scenario of renting vs. the best case scenario for homeownership and it's so disingenuous.
Remember to bookmark this thread for people who compare landlords to cockroaches.
Not everyone wants to own a house. Landlords absorb this risk. Landlords perform this work.
"Risk" and "work" are different things.
Many landlords offload the _work_ to a property management company.
But _risk_ is something all landlords do indeed take on.
I'm more than happy to pay someone for doing the _work_ of property management. But when it comes to _risk_, I would much prefer the option of better homeowner's insurance as the solution.
Some of us Avoid the middle man, have long term relationships with our tenants. I've been a landlord since 2004. Tenants have gotten married, had children, and moved on to buy a home of their own.
Prop Management is a scam for both the landlord and tenant. Landlords who need them, should've sold,.
I mean...
I get what you're saying, but the CEO of Blackrock isn't doing property management himself, and he is absolutely making a hefty profit off of residential housing "investments".
Being a landlord doesn't imply anything specific about the actual work you do. It only confers that you own the property.
And owning the property entails a certain amount of power you're able to wield over the people living there. It's incredibly sound advice to be skeptical of anyone with access to that kind of power.
Sounds like you're trying to do things an honest way. I commend you for that. But I'll also take what you say with a grain of salt. Because even if you _think_ you had a good relationship with your tenants, they were economically coerced into being gracious towards you. In much the same way a worker has to feign pleasantries when talking to their boss, or a driver needs to act disarming when pulled over by a cop for speeding; When someone has economic/legal power over you, it's always in your best interest to "get along".
To be clear, I'm _not_ calling you out as a bad guy here either. I'm only saying that from this vantage point, I have absolutely no reliable information to work off of.
And bad landlords definitely exist. So the skepticism is warranted.
The thing that those people are complaining about is the landlords who do *not* do this needed maintenance. Being a landlord is fine and good as long as you uphold your end of the bargain -- something all too many do not.
(OP, I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. This is much worse than it could have been.)
Agreed, but your perspective is a minority on reddit. Of course there are bad landlords. But there is a vocal majority of reddit that believes all landlords are evil just for charging money for a basic need (shelter).
And this is where a basic understanding of the law comes into play.
If you don't have a functioning toilet, you don't need to pay rent. The house is uninhabitable.
The last time my tenants had an issue, I got them a hotel and reimbursed them for necessities like laundry until it was fixed. Not saying all landlords do this, but all the reddit kids seem to think all landlords are slumlords. Uh huh...
It's unfortunate, but a rotted out sewer pipe is pretty common. Especially cast iron or galvanized pipe. Our rental had the galvanized pipe, and some day the 4" line that runs up through the walls will have to be replaced =/
That 18" void was probably from leaking. A sinkhole in the making. Lucky they caught it now. Also not unheard of. My father replaced the concrete in the garage, and one corner was missing TWO FEET of earth. Amazing it held.
It is what it is. I feel bad for OP.
As a homeowner, you need to set aside money for when these kinds of things pop up. Rule of thumb is to set aside 1% of the purchase price each year for maintenance/repairs. This should help to absorb the hit when some of the big ticket things go wrong.
But, if you can't afford maintenance/repair then you can't afford your home.
He's talking like 50K or 70K in repairs though
Yeah yeah, in a utopian world, people would have $50K to $70K in the bank to maintain their home.
Most Americans do not have enough in savings to cover a $1K emergency
https://fortune.com/2024/02/01/emergency-1000-expense-most-americans-broke-debt-bankrate/
Do you have the stat for how many homeowners can cover a $1k emergency? Because if you looked at them specifically, you of course will still have plenty of folks who can't afford that $1k emergency, but a hell of a lot more will be fine.
Not to mention the people who just don't keep cash in their accounts because they're aggressively investing it and planning on using CC to cover bills long enough for them to get cash when they need it.
If *you don't* have the numbers , then you can't support your statement that more homeowners will have 1K in savings. Completely hypothetical.
No, I do not have those numbers either.
The good news is that you have cash reserves. According to my math, you have $46k available for repairs. Hopefully that covers it. You have no other options really, considering you can't sell your house in the condition it's in, without taking a loss.
Basically I had a similar problem but discovered it _after_ renovating the entire kitchen and laying all new stone flooring. My problem was in the guest bathroom, but had eroded beneath my slab under the cast iron tub.
I used a transit and calculated there was enough fall (elevation change) on my lot to reroute all my drain plumbing around the perimeter of the house to the tap at the street. I abandoned all existing cast iron in place and cut into the outside wall of the kitchen, master bath, laundry room, guest bath. I cut through my driveway and dug 165' of trench to the tap.
Cost me like probably $3K in concrete, plumber assistant, and supplies.
I agree with this possibility, OP. See if you can reroute outside. That's what we did, too, for a 40 year old house that we bought that had some problems. The back bathroom and kitchen were on septic and the front bathroom connected to the city sewer line. We ran a perimeter sewer line and connected each thing separately outside the house. Makes it a dream to unclog if we have to - we have had to a couple of times.
This solution is basically invaluable to yourself and future owners. Replace all drain lines with easy access practically solves all future problems. I left the new owners of my house with a plumbing map.
We haven't done many aesthetic upgrades due to this sort of thing. Had to dig up our entire yard for the drainfield, punch holes in all the walls for supply line replacements, etc. Getting all the unseen necessities done first prior to the fun stuff that actually makes the value of a home go up to outside buyers....ya know....all the stuff flippers ignore and just slap lipstick on a pig 🤣
Are you me? My wife and I joke that we’re going to just sell as-is, worn out kitchen and bathrooms and all. We’re going to advertise as the “Millennial non-flipper special- almost all the *important* shit is done. What you install under this brand new 20 year roof is up to you.”
But hey, we’ve got a new roof, completely replaced septic and HVAC, new (appropriately sized and up to code) electrical panel, and loads more.
I think you literally are me too LOL
Panel
Water supply lines all the way to meter
Septic
Roof
Hvac
Crawlspace
Exhausted ducts for kitchen/bathrooms to go outdoors instead of venting to attic
Next on my list is sucking all the 80s insulation out of the attic and air sealing, then blowing new in. Another thing never to be seen.
Only Aesthetic thing that I've done is flooring & paint in the living room where we spend all our time.
I absolutely hate this house and want to list it EXACTLY how you described 🤣
"I did all the important stuff so you can focus on the fun stuff!"
Hahaha holy shit your list is almost identical to mine 😂
My water line repair didn’t go to the meter. Also the septic people were awesome and found the ACTUAL water line location a good 20ft from where utilities had marked it and they managed to do so without breaking it. I gave them a cash tip lol.
Edit: the good news is I’ve gotten pretty good and pretty efficient at drywall finishing so HMU, you supply the beer and mud lol.
Just curious how did you abandon the existing iron pipes? We also bought a pretty old home that was built with iron pipes. When we renovated we put in new PVC piping running outside the house but there was one pipe that was run under the house that is connected to a sink and the shower that wasn't replaced. Planning on redoing the bathroom at some point in time so wondering if that would be the time to try changing the pipe out or at a minimum running a new drain pipe and abandoning the old one.
Either it’s already on an outside wall or you cut the floor in the middle of the house if it’s not. Sometimes you can tunnel under the slab, this is a method that I used in some places. It really depends on your construction. As an example, my laundry room was on an outside wall so I cut open the drywall and ran it through the studs, then cut the block to the outside and tied it into a new drain in the ground. I left a clean out at the 90* going from outside to inside.
One of the bathrooms I gutted entirely, cut the floor where the drains existed, and put in new PVC, running it outside to the new main/drain. The existing cast iron in that case was accessible once I dug down under the CBS stemwall.
I re-used all my cast iron stacks as they basically last forever unless hit by lightning (cracking).
>dug 165' of trench to the tap.
Good lord. This redditor gets it done
> I abandoned all existing cast iron in place and cut into the outside wall of the kitchen, master bath, laundry room, guest bath.
How does that work with toilet, shower, bath? Plumbing for that is below the slab, yeah?
For the sinks and whatnot, do they come out the side of the house? Are they visible?
I tunneled under the stemwall, probably 48” square and used the existing void to remove the drain in the problem bathroom (could barely swing a small sledge to break it into pieces. We also broke the CI from the top a bit. Removed the vanity, broke CI for sink, pulled through the tunnel using a rope.
The other bathroom was in the midst of a renovation already so I just cut the floor and used the existing void to slip the new PVC in place from outside.
I do have a picture somewhere of me halfway under the slab like Wizard of Oz 👠
Okay. So instead of a pipe running across the house below the slab, you have a perimeter pipe and a line running to it for each area that needs one.
Still, that's a crazy amount of work
During our 2 month interior remodel I had to keep reminding myself of the dollar amounts it would cost otherwise. Still cost 20K in materials and a couple contractor items
Unfortunately the damage has already been done. Slab is cut and collapsed and void found. In the future though, does this work in areas with harsh winters?
You know what is awesome?! you have the cash saved up.. if this is not an emergency then I do not know what qualifies.. it's an unexpected event that you are able to cover because of your emergency fund.. then you rebuild and you go from there.
Yeah, this is the “fun” side of home ownership. You aren’t paying rent and you are building equity, but there’s also risk there. I have learned that every time you open up a wall/floor/ceiling you are going to find something very unexpected. Crappy previous work, handyman specials, and code violation stuff that was out of code 20 years ago.
Good luck with the fixes, and I hope it works out for you.
Guy I work with was looking at buying his first house a couple years ago. I know how much he makes and I thought it was a stretch because while he could definitely afford it, it was going to eat up the majority of his income just for mortgage, insurance, and taxes. A couple of weeks ago we were talking about house stuff and he was saying "I thought you were joking when you said there would always be something to fix." He told me every bit of extra money winds up going into the house.
First time homeowners just have no idea.
yup - same story, was first time home buyer in 2013, found a good place, built in 1976. Wasn't perfect, and didn't help the previous owner was either a cheap idiot (or hired cheap idiots)
I spent the first few years un-fucking nearly all aspects of that house. From electrical, drywall, plumbing, lighting, you name it. I made sure to have a little bit of a nest egg in the bank vs putting a ton of money down, I think the first few years I spent an avg of 5k a year. Keeping in mind this was also buying a lot of tools and things I still have to this day, basically starting from scratch.
I do most of my own work, I'm slow, but I make sure it's done correctly. Every now and then there's a project that I'll hire out (new HVAC, new fence in texas summer) but I don't even want to think about what I would be out of pocket if i hired for "everything".
With the prices/markets around here first time home buyers I always tell my younger friends "hey, if you do this you really need to have 20k sitting in the bank just in case" for the house.
The first year of homeownership is the worst. You suddenly have additional rooms to furnish, you need all kinds of tools and yard equipment, etc. Then you have to fix the urgent stuff that is wrong with the house (every house has something). Only after that can you start to make the modifications that make the home "yours" and that's assuming nothing unforeseen happens.
After 20 years though, I no longer have a house payment which feels amazing. I am setting aside money because we'll need a new roof soon and also need to address a few minor yard drainage issues before they become major ones.
That's why people should be in the mindset of buying the absolute cheapest house that will meet your needs, not the most expensive that the mortgage company will lend you. Smaller, cheaper houses typically have fewer and less expensive repairs, not to mention cheaper insurance and taxes
Right. It doesn't sound like a "potential creekbed" suddenly developed from a spring under the house. Sounds like a leak made a void. It may all be confined to one area.
It’s not certain, but if any damage occurred when the slab shifted (cabinets fell, walls cracked, etc.) you may be able to get coverage for that damage. A friendly adjuster may include a generous amount of damage resulting from the slab collapse.
I’m curious about something. Why did the sellers need to have a structural engineering report done? That isn’t typical. I have purchased much older properties (built in 1920 and 1880) and I’ve not seen this done before. I could see if it was a foreclosed property or something but why would this 1970’s home need it?
If it was a concern of the seller, then they would hire their own structural engineer for an assessment. I wouldn’t trust anyone being paid by the seller.
First off, take a deep breath. Everything will all work out. Sounds like their are numerous unknowns with this situations. The engineer is the best way to proceed so its just a waiting game now.
> Called homeowners insurance and they said pipe damage, potential creekbed, voids all have clauses which make insurance coverage unlikely.
That's what you would expect them to say, right? No offense, I would have called to, but that's going to be their default position for anything not **obviously** covered. Download a copy of the policy and start reading yourself.
> sellers provided a report from structural engineering company from February 2022 saying no recommendations/work needed.
This might be more of an /r/LegalAdvice question, but if your structural engineering firm assessment concludes that a competent assessment done in 2022 **should** have revealed this defect you may be able to go after the previous homeowners who could in turn seek to recover from the engineering firm they hired. You probably don't have standing to directly collect from the first firm as you had no business relationship with them. Also unlikely that this was in scope for the home inspector you hired. I'm not saying you should call an attorney, but it's probably a good time to reach out to your local connections (including your realtor) to find out who the attorneys are in your area who might deal with this sort of case.
I mean, if your back of envelope estimate of the repairs is $88K, and you have savings of $100K, I guess what you will do is use your $100K savings to pay for the repairs, and consider yourselves lucky that you had the emergency fund to handle such a shocking situation.
It sucks that this is going to decimate your savings so badly at a time in your life when it would be good to have access to a little extra cash. You will take out an auto loan for the car. You will replenish your savings over time. You will be OK.
The rest of the cash is emergency fund. This is an emergency. You have the funds. What’s the question? You already prepared for this so make it happen captain.
You have a stamped structural engineering report from Feb 2022? You need to figure out if they can be pursued for anything. They may not be liable for anything, but you should figure out if there was something that could have been considered negligent. Make sure you get another stamped structural engineer's report. Do not just have a foundation repair contractor out.
I just bought a house that had some insane estimates for foundation repair because there was some cracking in the drywall/brick veneer/doors sticking. Price dropped significantly, and yet no one had had a structural engineer out. I had 2 different structural PEs come and agreed it needed nothing but gutters and possibly grade improvement. Very different situation than your house, but don't just follow whatever a foundation repair company tells you. It sounds like you are doing it right, but I just wanted to say that.
Also, something I found while researching foundation engineering was that most of the batshit (legitimate) repair costs seemed to involve basements. If you're a single story slab, I seriously doubt you'd get near 25k, let alone 50k.
I just want to say that you are in an incredibly strong position since you didn't spend every dollar you had to buy the house. Do the repairs. Rebuild the emergency fund. Junior still goes to college.
I owned one house and had to replace the entire septic system $36,000 another house new roof $22,000 my current home HVAC $12,000 so far. Your yearly home budget needs to include 1% - 3% of the homes value in maintenance per year. My personal rule of thumb is a house less than 10 years old is around the 1% 20yo=2% and 30yo=3%. This has served me well in planning.
Wait for the engineer/structural report and go from there. Plans for the new car seem like they could be put on hold and that cash could be used for the repairs. Car market sucks right now anyways and most cars(at least in my area) are still wildly overpriced. Could even look into getting the transmission repaired instead, but either way I think the car can be held off and that money moved to pay for the repair costs.
Dig in to your insurance policy as much as you can and see if you can find any way the repair can be covered. Be happy you have the cash on hand to deal with this emergency repair because many in your same situation would be completely up the creek without a paddle.
If the house is worth 380 in a repaired state they might be able to get out from under the mortgage of 317. The low rate could be a good selling point if it is assumable.
First get second opinions on jobs in general. Second, document the entire thing with an eye to any evidence the sellers knew about any of this and did not disclose. Evidence of prior work, photograph all this stuff, query workers you hire etc.
If you can prove they knew about something and didn’t disclose it - not easy to do — you could possibly collect
Not gonna get a penny from the sellers. They may have known there's a depression but it means nothing about them knowing if there's a void. Void probably came from the pipe corrosion finally leaking water through but not enough to cause issue cause kitchen sink is upstream of toilet
Welcome to homeownership! This is what realtors and mortgage bankers dont teach.......
And BTW- watch out for exterior sewer lines (house to street). Trees love iron pipe! While you're at it, you might consider replacing with plastic, that trees dont like! Knowing what you know, selling unrepaired is not an option, as any inspector worth his salt will catch.
Earmark less for the new car. You can buy used for less than 10k.
You have enough cash to weather the storm if this isn't covered (i hope it is).
Selling the house isn't really an option. You have to get this issue solved, or no one will pay you enough money to make it worth accepting.
You can't buy anything with a reasonable expectation of reliability for less than 10k anymore. Buying a beater is not a good financial decision when you have the funds to at least buy a decent Toyota, which they do.
I can find tons of decent used cars for around that price where i live for that price. I have no idea what you are defining as a beater, honestly.
Buying a new toyota isn't a bad idea either. But if OP needs to buckle down, used is definitely okay.
I was referring to a used or new Toyota. What I know is that there is a significant difference between the used Toyotas you have access to in the < 10k price bracket and < 20k price bracket. Would much rather get a newer/lower mileage one for 10-20k (if affordable for the person) and ensure more maintenance is done appropriately to give you the best odds of hitting 200, 300k+.
You can't buy used for less than 10k and get an improvement over the existing vehicle. Not in my area at least. 10k is the bare minimum, and you better have an existing relationship with a salesman who calls you the minute it's on the dealer's books. Because it's gone within hours if it's 10-12k and not a piece of junk.
I would say if they have $35k earmarked for a new vehicle but are afraid of not having liquid capital to spend on home repairs or whatever else, don't pay cash up front for a car? Sure, payments suck but even 1/3rd of $35k is a substantial down payment. The leftover cash can go in to a HYSA to stay liquid and effectively amortize the higher interest rate. Not to mention that dealers don't gain anything from cash sales anymore and you lock yourself out from discounts and incentives (including very low promo APRs in some situations) by not financing in a lot of cases.
I'm assuming this is a monolithic slab? We just went through something similar a few years back. I was scared shitless at the foundation estimates, but we ended up putting in something like 15-20 piers under our house, it had settled almost 2" in some places and it was only about 5k give or take a few bucks if I remember correctly for the foundation work. Zero issues after shoring up the foundation and replacing the main sewer line out of the house.
It's probably not going to be as expensive as you think.
Pay for the necessary expenses. Take the 35k earmarked for a new car and reduce as necessary - you can always take out a loan.
Oh, and since you're already going to spend a bunch, see if the piping can be rerouted outside instead of having to cut into the kitchen floor if this happens again.
Just as a voice of reason, just a few months ago I had TWENTY NINE piers put into my foundation to lift it up, and then we discovered half the house still had cast iron that had fully disintegrated. Total to fix both issues was only $40k and it was…an extensive repair. If your plumbing quote is to tunnel out under your whole house get another quote because it’s way easier and more cost effective to reroute through the yard
I'd consider spending less than 35k on a new car. Either fix the transmission on your old one, or get a used Toyota with 100k miles for $15k.
I'm no structural engineer, but I wonder about perhaps pumping concrete or some other form of structural filler through the holes you drilled to fill in the void. But if there is literally a creek running under your house, you may need to mitigate that as well rather than just fill the void.
As others said - your best bet here is to spend the dough to get the place fixed up. You have enough cash to do it and a great mortgage rate. You might also find that you can DIY some or all of your kitchen remodel. Not the structural stuff or probably the piping (although with accessible plumbing, you'd be surprised what you can do yourself).
Good luck.
There are different levels of "fixed" Sometimes you gotta figure it out yourself and decide what you're willing to live with until you can do it right.
Hell, there's shit around here I've been putting off for 15 years.
Keep that conversation open with home insurance. Fight it as much as you can so that they can cover it. Talk to engineer to see if he can word the report so that it has nothing to do with the pipe...
I had the main cast iron pipe that runs from one end of the house to the other epoxy lined. Cost about as much as digging up the floor without having to dig up the floor.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glW3VffZL4g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glW3VffZL4g)
They have high speed rooters now that knock the rust out of the old cast iron pipes. If I knew about this before I did the liner, I'd have done this instead.
Some people claim these descalers will crack the pipe.
Before anything, congrats on your purchase and excellent interest rate for today. Pipe Relining may have been a choice before all the demo work. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7hi-0jMnEI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7hi-0jMnEI)
Video of pipe relining, its a real think and could save you all that demo/reconstruction work
Sigh. I’m a live in caregiver/house manager for an elderly woman. Same thing just happened. Old, probably original cast iron pipes. Whole house had to be redone. (It’s a big old Victorian) 40k!
Probably a temporary work-around is an electric macerating toilet that can pump itself and other drains connected to it through a small diameter pipe that can be routed up and over the trouble spot.
Look on the bright side, you found out about the problem while it was an 18'' void and the slab slid a tiny bit. Hopefully this can be a localized remediation rather than jacking up the entire house to pour a new foundation from scratch.
At this point, there is not much you can do until an engineer looks at it. Best case, house jack, maybe mudjacking, who knows. As the other poster said, there is not much you can do now, but deal with it. Not what you want to hear, but you have done well managing your finances and are probably in better shape that 99.9% of folks.
Are you in Florida? We lived in Miami in a 70s house and we and most of our neighbors had to get the cast iron drain lines replaced one way or another. One house in the neighborhood had a sinkhole.
We sold as is and gave buyers a “kickback” to cover repairs.
You may be able to sue the sellers for nondisclosure?
Lesson learned: never buy a house with cast iron plumbing.
If the previous owners covered up the fact that the floor was sinking then you may be able to go after them.
If you know the LVP was installed in 2016 and without it, the problems are obvious, then they should have known.
The structural engineer isn't ripping up flooring to look at what is underneath it or drilling random holes in your foundation to check for stuff like this.
The question is who tore up the floor to do what? What did they discover prior to 2016?
Engineers have many ways of non destructive testing, not to mention the entire house is tied to the foundation, and as such, there would be other signs that something was not right.
2022, a structural engineer deemed this home ok. In 2016, the homeowner put in new flooring, something people do all the time.
Engineer reports are legal documents.
If your insurance company says they won’t cover it, reach out to your state’s Department of Insurance. They’re the state’s regulatory agency for insurance companies; they basically police insurance companies and make sure they are doing their jobs. Every state has a Department of Insurance. They’ll help you deal with your insurance company.
The only way I can think part of it might be covered is the 'pop' sound when the plumbers were doing work which precipitated the sudden movement of the foundation. This indicates that it might have been a sudden occurence caused by an outside force and depending on the hows and whats and whys, it *could* be covered, but probably wouldn't
Foundation repair won’t be 25k, and if it is you are getting ripped off. Most likely was an existing leak under the kitchen that caused the soil to heave. Plumbing leak gets fixed and the solid dries up causing it to compress back down resulting with that void. You need a poly injection to fill that void underneath the slab
Finance all the things you can of those things you said you want to buy, put that cash in a high yield savings account or investments, withdraw monthly to make payments.
It's easy when you have money.
If you are friendly with the neighbors, you might ask if the previous owners mentioned having any issues with the foundation or floor in the kitchen. If it can be proven they knew there was a problem & didn’t disclose it there could be some recourse there.
It sucks but fixing the house is going to be cheaper than moving if you could even sell your current place as is.
There's basically 0 chance this is on the previous owners. It's almost impossible to prove someone lied on a disclosure form, AND an engineering firm said everything was fine. This almost certainly happened during the OPs ownership and it's just part of owning a home.
The people suggesting going after the prior owners have no idea. It would have to be something very different than this. Homes across the country have all sorts of unpermitted work that causes various issues and the person who sold 2-15 years ago and did work on the house 2-25 years ago when they lived there are never sought and held to pay.
I don’t always recommend debt but sounds like you’re budget conscious and earn a good living. Take out a heloc or finance the car to stretch your cash.
Ps Zillow estimates are BS.
>No idea how to proceed at this point. I think it's pretty simple. You pay for the necessary repairs and make sure that you continue to set aside enough money for future, unforeseen repairs. That's home ownership for you. For better or worse, you're on the hook.
Remember to bookmark this thread for people who compare mortgage vs rent.
I've read it expressed as: rent is the maximum you will pay to keep a roof over your head, a mortgage payment is the minimum. There are real costs associated with home ownership as OP is finding out. That's one of the reasons that it's very risky to stretch yourself thin just to afford your monthly mortgage payments.
mortgage payments also stop eventually if you have the money up front, and then it really pays off. For me, that would be almost $20k a year back into savings to spend on emergencies, debt, and vacations.
True. Long-term is really the key to pitching home ownership as being "worthwhile" vs. renting for most people. The ongoing maintenance, unexpected repairs, tax increases, and additional ownership costs all eat into (and often past) any gain you'd make vs renting for many years. And, of course, any "profit" in selling your house for more than you paid for it only really comes into play when you actually do sell it. And knowing that your house is "worth more than you paid for it" doesn't exactly calm the debt collectors when you're broke at the moment. Of course, even if you sell you'll still need a place to live. That's buying (or renting) again... I think it's more subjective and circumstantial than many people claim it to be.
Thank you for saying this. Homeownership has been oversold as the end-all be-all to financial stability. It’s highly dependent on the specifics and timeline. And if you’re just lucky like OP (and me) and it turns out there were issues that a normal inspection couldn’t possibly find, it quickly changes the math. So far I’m at a total of $80k to contractors over six years of homeownership. All out of pocket, no insurance claims. No cosmetic/comfort upgrades. All strictly necessary systems like HVAC, electrical panel, septic, roof. We’re not even counting all of the stuff that I have done myself. If I wrote up invoices for more in depth repairs I’ve done based on what I used to bill as a handyman that would easily be another $20k in labor alone.
100% (and sorry to hear about your situation :( ) There's still a bit of a "gamble" to it. Yes, housing values have traditionally always gone up. But that doesn't mean EVERY house has. And, like we're saying here, it doesn't mean that the increase is still outpacing the costs put into the house. And finally, again (for the folks that missed it the first time) it means little if the value your "investment" is literally tied up in your shelter. Meaning, you can't just quickly liquidate to get that return. Selling a house usually takes time. And again, you'll still need a place to live after. If you can't pay your other bills, your house isn't of much help. Equity loan? Maybe, if you qualify. And that's still kicking the can down the road. And you lose the ability to be as flexible. Switched jobs and may a bit less money? Switched jobs and now work on the other side of town? Sure, time to find a new apartment. Not as simple if you own a home. I wouldn't trade it at this point, personally. But it's a bit of a labor of love. I consider the perks of my home to offset the costs. I like some privacy. I like not sharing a wall/driveway/parking/etc with a stranger. I don't mind yardwork. But I'm not handy enough to deal with a lot of issues and there are times it is overwhelming because it's simply **never ending.** There's almost no point where you are guaranteed that if you just put X amount of dollars into your home repair that you won't ever have to do it again. Best case, you hope everything performs the way it claims to, and then you start saving for replacing the thing in 5, 10, 20, 50 years. You hope the things that usually last longer than that were done by the person before you - and not the original electrical from the late 1800s. It's tough to "complain" about right now because there's a whole lot of people who are simply priced out of buying a home right now. And I get that. I'm sympathetic. But I still think it's important to be transparent and honest about the whole picture and not just the upside. And being broke or struggling sucks, renting or not.
I couldn’t agree more. I **am* thankful that I kind of snuck in under the wire before the market went completely insane. If I was looking for my first home right now I honestly don’t know what I would do. I agree on the labor of love. It’s a pile of crap but it is my pile of crap! I think it’s important as you said to be transparent about the fact that the grass isn’t necessarily always greener. There is a unique set of risks and unknowns, changes to lifestyle, loss of flexibility etc. Housing (land ownership) has long been a major source of generational wealth building and there’s no denying that. But that doesn’t mean that’s a guarantee.
>The ongoing maintenance, unexpected repairs, tax increases, and additional ownership costs all eat into (and often past) any gain you'd make vs renting for many years. Its wild that so many people don't understand that you will pay for this in rent as well. Its called rent increases, which for most people, happen every single year. You also get no equity for renting, so you're technically keeping part of that monthly payment. Renting v buying is different for everyone, but its so funny to claim that you dont pay for tax increases, repairs and maintenance through higher rents, not to mention that renting for the same space is usually always higher anyways
I mean, I rented for decades before I owned. My rent didn't go up drastically in any place I stayed. We are living in unprecedented (and hopefully soon to change) times. You know what else has gone up for most homeowners the past few years? Property taxes. Insurance. Utilities. Repairs. Gotta buy that lawn mower. Gotta put gas in it. Gotta maintain it. Got to have it repaired when needed. None of that ever gets *less* expensive. Every one of those things cost more than it did 5 or 10 years ago. I'm not sure that's ever *not* been the case. Equity is certainly the big factor here. And again, equity is not guaranteed. Ask folks from the 2008-2012 market crash how all that equity they thought they had worked for them when they couldn't afford their homes anymore. And ended up owing more than their home was suddenly "worth". >but its so funny to claim that you don't pay for tax increases, repairs and maintenance through higher rents Like was said at the top of the thread: >rent is the maximum you will pay to keep a roof over your head, a mortgage payment is the minimum. It may indeed go up, but it's not going to kick you in the pants a month later unexpectedly as the sewer backs up, the roof leaks, the foundation shift, the racoons nest in the attic..etc etc.. But I digress - it's not my intent to make it a competition or suggest that either option is perfect or even *always* better. Both can be bad and both can be good. We were simply pointing out that it's way more common to see only complaints about renting and those seemingly implying that owning just takes away all those problems and saves so much money. I'll add that certainly the *current* rental situation in many markets is a whole different and terrible thing than previous generations had to deal with. That doesn't change the potential downsides of ownership, but I acknowledge that it changes the variables related to benefits of renting.
I grew up working with my father who was a contractor, mostly doing kitchen and bathroom remodeling. I have been around the residential light construction industry most of my life, and I have seen an exquisitely intimate detail just how devastatingly expensive homeownership can be. I will be honest, unless you happen to get exceptionally lucky and buy in a place that sees some sort of insane appreciation… I’m not sure it’s worth it. Me personally, I will be renting or living in condos for my whole life.
Not sure a condo is the protection you're looking for here... What about "special assessments?"
Condos at least disperse the risk among one to two dozen other people. And the condo association should have a reserve to cover these types of things. They still might not, but its an extra buffer.
Its not really a buffer because although the assessment is spread out, its usually larger. Ie you are not just replacing a single family building roof, its a lot of roof. Not just paving a single driveway, its an entire parking lot...
>Its not really a buffer The buffer is the reserve. The point is that in a SFH, any emergency expenses fall directly on you and if you're not prepared for it then you're SOOL. In a condo there *should* be a reserve that takes the hit well before you get a special assessment. Now it's possible that everyone in the condo is collectively irresponsible and haven't built up any reserve. But on average it's still easier to budget than directly absorbing any emergencies. >Ie you are not just replacing a single family building roof, its a lot of roof. True, but it's not 1:1. A 20 person condo doesn't have 20x as much roof as a SFH. In my neighborhood, I would actually say my condo has less roof than a lot of larger SFH.
It depends on the HOA and you have to do research. I've lived in mine for 7 years and we had a single $500 assessment once when 2 of the 12 buildings in our complex burned down within the span of a few months and they had to switch insurance providers with zero notice. We have a very sizeable reserve fund that has stayed the same level, and all repairs are budgeted years in advance. In 2021 they actually paused HOA dues for 3 months because the reserve fund got too large.
This is a fascinating take My approach has been to buy places where the house is so old and worrying that it’s literally a liability, not an asset, on top of land value and then fix it. Just finished a total rebuild leaving only the roof and brick walls intact..
People always love to brag about doing this and that's great. We're all super happy for you. But even regardless of people's know how and ability, that's not the lifestyle choice for most people. And somehow most homeowners find a way to get by without that being their hobby.
Is it any less devastatingly expensive for your landlord? Who is covering those costs?
You r landlord does and then you choose just to live someplace else after your lease is up if they jack up the rates
It's tax-advantaged to fix stuff as a landlord. It's not tax-advantaged as a homeowner.
I don’t think “tax-advantaged” means what you think it means. The costs have to be incurred by the landlord, it does not help that he may get some tax offset next year. This is just silly.
Sure it does. The landlord can write off the expense and reduce their tax bill. I have to use after-tax dollars to make the same repair. Depending on the tax rate, the landlord effectively gets the repair at a 20-30% discount.
I know exactly what it means. I mean yeah, you have to either have cash on hand or have the ability to secure lines of credit in order to handle repairs when you're a landlord - no different than a homeowner. The difference is that for necessary repairs, property improvements, and business expenses in general, there are many ways in the US tax code for landlords to recoup that money by lowering their tax burden. Some has to be prorated over the life of the repair as depreciation, but tons of stuff can be claimed in the same tax year as as the expense. As a result, it's easy as a landlord to end up paying very little income tax for the rent payments you get once all of that is factored in. Compare that to a homeowner who ends up 100% on the hook for anything not covered by insurance or a home warranty, you can definitely say that it's more tax-advantaged to fix stuff as a landlord.
You are not making sense. I’m a landlord, I don’t “recoup” a $7,000 repair via the tax code. I add the expense to my costs and increase rent accordingly. I may add the receipt to the expense pile in the hopes of slightly lowering next year’s tax liabilities. My property either makes me or loses me money, there is no tax magic coming to the rescue.
This is always my "argument" for people who say there are no benefits to renting or renting is a complete waste. It's always homeowners comparing the worst case scenario of renting vs. the best case scenario for homeownership and it's so disingenuous.
Remember to bookmark this thread for people who compare landlords to cockroaches. Not everyone wants to own a house. Landlords absorb this risk. Landlords perform this work.
"Risk" and "work" are different things. Many landlords offload the _work_ to a property management company. But _risk_ is something all landlords do indeed take on. I'm more than happy to pay someone for doing the _work_ of property management. But when it comes to _risk_, I would much prefer the option of better homeowner's insurance as the solution.
Some of us Avoid the middle man, have long term relationships with our tenants. I've been a landlord since 2004. Tenants have gotten married, had children, and moved on to buy a home of their own. Prop Management is a scam for both the landlord and tenant. Landlords who need them, should've sold,.
I mean... I get what you're saying, but the CEO of Blackrock isn't doing property management himself, and he is absolutely making a hefty profit off of residential housing "investments". Being a landlord doesn't imply anything specific about the actual work you do. It only confers that you own the property. And owning the property entails a certain amount of power you're able to wield over the people living there. It's incredibly sound advice to be skeptical of anyone with access to that kind of power. Sounds like you're trying to do things an honest way. I commend you for that. But I'll also take what you say with a grain of salt. Because even if you _think_ you had a good relationship with your tenants, they were economically coerced into being gracious towards you. In much the same way a worker has to feign pleasantries when talking to their boss, or a driver needs to act disarming when pulled over by a cop for speeding; When someone has economic/legal power over you, it's always in your best interest to "get along". To be clear, I'm _not_ calling you out as a bad guy here either. I'm only saying that from this vantage point, I have absolutely no reliable information to work off of. And bad landlords definitely exist. So the skepticism is warranted.
The thing that those people are complaining about is the landlords who do *not* do this needed maintenance. Being a landlord is fine and good as long as you uphold your end of the bargain -- something all too many do not. (OP, I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. This is much worse than it could have been.)
Agreed, but your perspective is a minority on reddit. Of course there are bad landlords. But there is a vocal majority of reddit that believes all landlords are evil just for charging money for a basic need (shelter).
Yeah I can't engage with them, that's a fundamental values difference I guess
There are many landlords who wouldn’t bother to fix this issue. OP is landlord and tenant at the same time, because he lives in his home. But go on ig
And this is where a basic understanding of the law comes into play. If you don't have a functioning toilet, you don't need to pay rent. The house is uninhabitable. The last time my tenants had an issue, I got them a hotel and reimbursed them for necessities like laundry until it was fixed. Not saying all landlords do this, but all the reddit kids seem to think all landlords are slumlords. Uh huh...
[удалено]
Thank you! 20 year landlord who LAUGHS are the landlord hate on reddit.
It's unfortunate, but a rotted out sewer pipe is pretty common. Especially cast iron or galvanized pipe. Our rental had the galvanized pipe, and some day the 4" line that runs up through the walls will have to be replaced =/ That 18" void was probably from leaking. A sinkhole in the making. Lucky they caught it now. Also not unheard of. My father replaced the concrete in the garage, and one corner was missing TWO FEET of earth. Amazing it held. It is what it is. I feel bad for OP.
I would love to have that kind of money laying around. Refinance? Probably a loan.
As a homeowner, you need to set aside money for when these kinds of things pop up. Rule of thumb is to set aside 1% of the purchase price each year for maintenance/repairs. This should help to absorb the hit when some of the big ticket things go wrong. But, if you can't afford maintenance/repair then you can't afford your home.
He's talking like 50K or 70K in repairs though Yeah yeah, in a utopian world, people would have $50K to $70K in the bank to maintain their home. Most Americans do not have enough in savings to cover a $1K emergency https://fortune.com/2024/02/01/emergency-1000-expense-most-americans-broke-debt-bankrate/
Do you have the stat for how many homeowners can cover a $1k emergency? Because if you looked at them specifically, you of course will still have plenty of folks who can't afford that $1k emergency, but a hell of a lot more will be fine. Not to mention the people who just don't keep cash in their accounts because they're aggressively investing it and planning on using CC to cover bills long enough for them to get cash when they need it.
If *you don't* have the numbers , then you can't support your statement that more homeowners will have 1K in savings. Completely hypothetical. No, I do not have those numbers either.
The good news is that you have cash reserves. According to my math, you have $46k available for repairs. Hopefully that covers it. You have no other options really, considering you can't sell your house in the condition it's in, without taking a loss.
Basically I had a similar problem but discovered it _after_ renovating the entire kitchen and laying all new stone flooring. My problem was in the guest bathroom, but had eroded beneath my slab under the cast iron tub. I used a transit and calculated there was enough fall (elevation change) on my lot to reroute all my drain plumbing around the perimeter of the house to the tap at the street. I abandoned all existing cast iron in place and cut into the outside wall of the kitchen, master bath, laundry room, guest bath. I cut through my driveway and dug 165' of trench to the tap. Cost me like probably $3K in concrete, plumber assistant, and supplies.
I agree with this possibility, OP. See if you can reroute outside. That's what we did, too, for a 40 year old house that we bought that had some problems. The back bathroom and kitchen were on septic and the front bathroom connected to the city sewer line. We ran a perimeter sewer line and connected each thing separately outside the house. Makes it a dream to unclog if we have to - we have had to a couple of times.
This solution is basically invaluable to yourself and future owners. Replace all drain lines with easy access practically solves all future problems. I left the new owners of my house with a plumbing map.
I think the issue is there already IS a void under thr slab and that needs to be addressed too. Likely by finishing cutting through the slab
Maybe they can fill that like they fill a sinkhole - with a concrete truck and a tube
We haven't done many aesthetic upgrades due to this sort of thing. Had to dig up our entire yard for the drainfield, punch holes in all the walls for supply line replacements, etc. Getting all the unseen necessities done first prior to the fun stuff that actually makes the value of a home go up to outside buyers....ya know....all the stuff flippers ignore and just slap lipstick on a pig 🤣
It does suck how that works out sometimes. At least you know you’re making your mark on this world!
Are you me? My wife and I joke that we’re going to just sell as-is, worn out kitchen and bathrooms and all. We’re going to advertise as the “Millennial non-flipper special- almost all the *important* shit is done. What you install under this brand new 20 year roof is up to you.” But hey, we’ve got a new roof, completely replaced septic and HVAC, new (appropriately sized and up to code) electrical panel, and loads more.
I think you literally are me too LOL Panel Water supply lines all the way to meter Septic Roof Hvac Crawlspace Exhausted ducts for kitchen/bathrooms to go outdoors instead of venting to attic Next on my list is sucking all the 80s insulation out of the attic and air sealing, then blowing new in. Another thing never to be seen. Only Aesthetic thing that I've done is flooring & paint in the living room where we spend all our time. I absolutely hate this house and want to list it EXACTLY how you described 🤣 "I did all the important stuff so you can focus on the fun stuff!"
Hahaha holy shit your list is almost identical to mine 😂 My water line repair didn’t go to the meter. Also the septic people were awesome and found the ACTUAL water line location a good 20ft from where utilities had marked it and they managed to do so without breaking it. I gave them a cash tip lol. Edit: the good news is I’ve gotten pretty good and pretty efficient at drywall finishing so HMU, you supply the beer and mud lol.
🤣 when i get around to patching the holes the plumbers made 2 Years ago I'll probably get pretty good at it
Just curious how did you abandon the existing iron pipes? We also bought a pretty old home that was built with iron pipes. When we renovated we put in new PVC piping running outside the house but there was one pipe that was run under the house that is connected to a sink and the shower that wasn't replaced. Planning on redoing the bathroom at some point in time so wondering if that would be the time to try changing the pipe out or at a minimum running a new drain pipe and abandoning the old one.
Either it’s already on an outside wall or you cut the floor in the middle of the house if it’s not. Sometimes you can tunnel under the slab, this is a method that I used in some places. It really depends on your construction. As an example, my laundry room was on an outside wall so I cut open the drywall and ran it through the studs, then cut the block to the outside and tied it into a new drain in the ground. I left a clean out at the 90* going from outside to inside. One of the bathrooms I gutted entirely, cut the floor where the drains existed, and put in new PVC, running it outside to the new main/drain. The existing cast iron in that case was accessible once I dug down under the CBS stemwall. I re-used all my cast iron stacks as they basically last forever unless hit by lightning (cracking).
This line runs inside the house so we would have to cut the floor thanks!
Is this a southern thing? Where I live it seems like the freezing cold would make the drains back up. Our frost line is like 5 feet deep...
>dug 165' of trench to the tap. Good lord. This redditor gets it done > I abandoned all existing cast iron in place and cut into the outside wall of the kitchen, master bath, laundry room, guest bath. How does that work with toilet, shower, bath? Plumbing for that is below the slab, yeah? For the sinks and whatnot, do they come out the side of the house? Are they visible?
I tunneled under the stemwall, probably 48” square and used the existing void to remove the drain in the problem bathroom (could barely swing a small sledge to break it into pieces. We also broke the CI from the top a bit. Removed the vanity, broke CI for sink, pulled through the tunnel using a rope. The other bathroom was in the midst of a renovation already so I just cut the floor and used the existing void to slip the new PVC in place from outside. I do have a picture somewhere of me halfway under the slab like Wizard of Oz 👠
Okay. So instead of a pipe running across the house below the slab, you have a perimeter pipe and a line running to it for each area that needs one. Still, that's a crazy amount of work During our 2 month interior remodel I had to keep reminding myself of the dollar amounts it would cost otherwise. Still cost 20K in materials and a couple contractor items
Unfortunately the damage has already been done. Slab is cut and collapsed and void found. In the future though, does this work in areas with harsh winters?
I don’t know, I am not familiar with harsh winters. My guess is that you need quite a bit more elevation to bury the pipe below the frost line?
You know what is awesome?! you have the cash saved up.. if this is not an emergency then I do not know what qualifies.. it's an unexpected event that you are able to cover because of your emergency fund.. then you rebuild and you go from there.
Yeah, this is the “fun” side of home ownership. You aren’t paying rent and you are building equity, but there’s also risk there. I have learned that every time you open up a wall/floor/ceiling you are going to find something very unexpected. Crappy previous work, handyman specials, and code violation stuff that was out of code 20 years ago. Good luck with the fixes, and I hope it works out for you.
Guy I work with was looking at buying his first house a couple years ago. I know how much he makes and I thought it was a stretch because while he could definitely afford it, it was going to eat up the majority of his income just for mortgage, insurance, and taxes. A couple of weeks ago we were talking about house stuff and he was saying "I thought you were joking when you said there would always be something to fix." He told me every bit of extra money winds up going into the house. First time homeowners just have no idea.
yup - same story, was first time home buyer in 2013, found a good place, built in 1976. Wasn't perfect, and didn't help the previous owner was either a cheap idiot (or hired cheap idiots) I spent the first few years un-fucking nearly all aspects of that house. From electrical, drywall, plumbing, lighting, you name it. I made sure to have a little bit of a nest egg in the bank vs putting a ton of money down, I think the first few years I spent an avg of 5k a year. Keeping in mind this was also buying a lot of tools and things I still have to this day, basically starting from scratch. I do most of my own work, I'm slow, but I make sure it's done correctly. Every now and then there's a project that I'll hire out (new HVAC, new fence in texas summer) but I don't even want to think about what I would be out of pocket if i hired for "everything". With the prices/markets around here first time home buyers I always tell my younger friends "hey, if you do this you really need to have 20k sitting in the bank just in case" for the house.
The first year of homeownership is the worst. You suddenly have additional rooms to furnish, you need all kinds of tools and yard equipment, etc. Then you have to fix the urgent stuff that is wrong with the house (every house has something). Only after that can you start to make the modifications that make the home "yours" and that's assuming nothing unforeseen happens. After 20 years though, I no longer have a house payment which feels amazing. I am setting aside money because we'll need a new roof soon and also need to address a few minor yard drainage issues before they become major ones.
Random live wires ....
That's why people should be in the mindset of buying the absolute cheapest house that will meet your needs, not the most expensive that the mortgage company will lend you. Smaller, cheaper houses typically have fewer and less expensive repairs, not to mention cheaper insurance and taxes
There’s nothing to do until the engineer comes out and opines on the slab.
Sounds like the pipe washed out water and created a void see if you have leak coverage on home owners policy it might cover it
Right. It doesn't sound like a "potential creekbed" suddenly developed from a spring under the house. Sounds like a leak made a void. It may all be confined to one area.
This is a good reminder for people to add this to their homeowners insurance. Mine was super cheap.
It’s not certain, but if any damage occurred when the slab shifted (cabinets fell, walls cracked, etc.) you may be able to get coverage for that damage. A friendly adjuster may include a generous amount of damage resulting from the slab collapse.
I’m curious about something. Why did the sellers need to have a structural engineering report done? That isn’t typical. I have purchased much older properties (built in 1920 and 1880) and I’ve not seen this done before. I could see if it was a foreclosed property or something but why would this 1970’s home need it?
They probably noticed the huge dip in the kitchen floor.
If it was a concern of the seller, then they would hire their own structural engineer for an assessment. I wouldn’t trust anyone being paid by the seller.
First off, take a deep breath. Everything will all work out. Sounds like their are numerous unknowns with this situations. The engineer is the best way to proceed so its just a waiting game now.
> Called homeowners insurance and they said pipe damage, potential creekbed, voids all have clauses which make insurance coverage unlikely. That's what you would expect them to say, right? No offense, I would have called to, but that's going to be their default position for anything not **obviously** covered. Download a copy of the policy and start reading yourself. > sellers provided a report from structural engineering company from February 2022 saying no recommendations/work needed. This might be more of an /r/LegalAdvice question, but if your structural engineering firm assessment concludes that a competent assessment done in 2022 **should** have revealed this defect you may be able to go after the previous homeowners who could in turn seek to recover from the engineering firm they hired. You probably don't have standing to directly collect from the first firm as you had no business relationship with them. Also unlikely that this was in scope for the home inspector you hired. I'm not saying you should call an attorney, but it's probably a good time to reach out to your local connections (including your realtor) to find out who the attorneys are in your area who might deal with this sort of case.
I knew that's what insurance would say, just added that to not be inundated with replies saying to contact insurance first.
Fair point. I would want the local copy of the policy PDF in case litigation does ensue, but I'm a bit paranoid.
tell the insurance and lawyers you flush less than 1100 per year so that type of damage should have been seen by the inspector
I mean, if your back of envelope estimate of the repairs is $88K, and you have savings of $100K, I guess what you will do is use your $100K savings to pay for the repairs, and consider yourselves lucky that you had the emergency fund to handle such a shocking situation. It sucks that this is going to decimate your savings so badly at a time in your life when it would be good to have access to a little extra cash. You will take out an auto loan for the car. You will replenish your savings over time. You will be OK.
Would a heloc be an option too? To at least not deplete the whole savings
Depends on the interest rate…
The rest of the cash is emergency fund. This is an emergency. You have the funds. What’s the question? You already prepared for this so make it happen captain.
You have a stamped structural engineering report from Feb 2022? You need to figure out if they can be pursued for anything. They may not be liable for anything, but you should figure out if there was something that could have been considered negligent. Make sure you get another stamped structural engineer's report. Do not just have a foundation repair contractor out. I just bought a house that had some insane estimates for foundation repair because there was some cracking in the drywall/brick veneer/doors sticking. Price dropped significantly, and yet no one had had a structural engineer out. I had 2 different structural PEs come and agreed it needed nothing but gutters and possibly grade improvement. Very different situation than your house, but don't just follow whatever a foundation repair company tells you. It sounds like you are doing it right, but I just wanted to say that. Also, something I found while researching foundation engineering was that most of the batshit (legitimate) repair costs seemed to involve basements. If you're a single story slab, I seriously doubt you'd get near 25k, let alone 50k.
I just want to say that you are in an incredibly strong position since you didn't spend every dollar you had to buy the house. Do the repairs. Rebuild the emergency fund. Junior still goes to college.
I owned one house and had to replace the entire septic system $36,000 another house new roof $22,000 my current home HVAC $12,000 so far. Your yearly home budget needs to include 1% - 3% of the homes value in maintenance per year. My personal rule of thumb is a house less than 10 years old is around the 1% 20yo=2% and 30yo=3%. This has served me well in planning.
Wait for the engineer/structural report and go from there. Plans for the new car seem like they could be put on hold and that cash could be used for the repairs. Car market sucks right now anyways and most cars(at least in my area) are still wildly overpriced. Could even look into getting the transmission repaired instead, but either way I think the car can be held off and that money moved to pay for the repair costs. Dig in to your insurance policy as much as you can and see if you can find any way the repair can be covered. Be happy you have the cash on hand to deal with this emergency repair because many in your same situation would be completely up the creek without a paddle.
If you have a problem that can be fixed with money, and you have money, then you don't have a problem.
The answer is fix the house. Unless you want to walk away, good luck buying another and you will take a huge credit hit.
If the house is worth 380 in a repaired state they might be able to get out from under the mortgage of 317. The low rate could be a good selling point if it is assumable.
First get second opinions on jobs in general. Second, document the entire thing with an eye to any evidence the sellers knew about any of this and did not disclose. Evidence of prior work, photograph all this stuff, query workers you hire etc. If you can prove they knew about something and didn’t disclose it - not easy to do — you could possibly collect
Not gonna get a penny from the sellers. They may have known there's a depression but it means nothing about them knowing if there's a void. Void probably came from the pipe corrosion finally leaking water through but not enough to cause issue cause kitchen sink is upstream of toilet
Can you track down the original report? Call that structural engineer
Welcome to homeownership! This is what realtors and mortgage bankers dont teach....... And BTW- watch out for exterior sewer lines (house to street). Trees love iron pipe! While you're at it, you might consider replacing with plastic, that trees dont like! Knowing what you know, selling unrepaired is not an option, as any inspector worth his salt will catch.
Earmark less for the new car. You can buy used for less than 10k. You have enough cash to weather the storm if this isn't covered (i hope it is). Selling the house isn't really an option. You have to get this issue solved, or no one will pay you enough money to make it worth accepting.
You can't buy anything with a reasonable expectation of reliability for less than 10k anymore. Buying a beater is not a good financial decision when you have the funds to at least buy a decent Toyota, which they do.
I can find tons of decent used cars for around that price where i live for that price. I have no idea what you are defining as a beater, honestly. Buying a new toyota isn't a bad idea either. But if OP needs to buckle down, used is definitely okay.
I was referring to a used or new Toyota. What I know is that there is a significant difference between the used Toyotas you have access to in the < 10k price bracket and < 20k price bracket. Would much rather get a newer/lower mileage one for 10-20k (if affordable for the person) and ensure more maintenance is done appropriately to give you the best odds of hitting 200, 300k+.
You can't buy used for less than 10k and get an improvement over the existing vehicle. Not in my area at least. 10k is the bare minimum, and you better have an existing relationship with a salesman who calls you the minute it's on the dealer's books. Because it's gone within hours if it's 10-12k and not a piece of junk.
Private sales. Dont go through a dealership.
I would say if they have $35k earmarked for a new vehicle but are afraid of not having liquid capital to spend on home repairs or whatever else, don't pay cash up front for a car? Sure, payments suck but even 1/3rd of $35k is a substantial down payment. The leftover cash can go in to a HYSA to stay liquid and effectively amortize the higher interest rate. Not to mention that dealers don't gain anything from cash sales anymore and you lock yourself out from discounts and incentives (including very low promo APRs in some situations) by not financing in a lot of cases.
Even transmission repair is <$10k.
Did you name the kid junior?
OP, we need to know.
You fix it. Fix it right. Get at least 3 quotes. Don’t go with the highest or the lowest.
I'm assuming this is a monolithic slab? We just went through something similar a few years back. I was scared shitless at the foundation estimates, but we ended up putting in something like 15-20 piers under our house, it had settled almost 2" in some places and it was only about 5k give or take a few bucks if I remember correctly for the foundation work. Zero issues after shoring up the foundation and replacing the main sewer line out of the house. It's probably not going to be as expensive as you think.
Hang in there guys, very sorry to hear. Just get many quotes and then you know you tried your best.
Pay for the necessary expenses. Take the 35k earmarked for a new car and reduce as necessary - you can always take out a loan. Oh, and since you're already going to spend a bunch, see if the piping can be rerouted outside instead of having to cut into the kitchen floor if this happens again.
Just as a voice of reason, just a few months ago I had TWENTY NINE piers put into my foundation to lift it up, and then we discovered half the house still had cast iron that had fully disintegrated. Total to fix both issues was only $40k and it was…an extensive repair. If your plumbing quote is to tunnel out under your whole house get another quote because it’s way easier and more cost effective to reroute through the yard
I'd consider spending less than 35k on a new car. Either fix the transmission on your old one, or get a used Toyota with 100k miles for $15k. I'm no structural engineer, but I wonder about perhaps pumping concrete or some other form of structural filler through the holes you drilled to fill in the void. But if there is literally a creek running under your house, you may need to mitigate that as well rather than just fill the void. As others said - your best bet here is to spend the dough to get the place fixed up. You have enough cash to do it and a great mortgage rate. You might also find that you can DIY some or all of your kitchen remodel. Not the structural stuff or probably the piping (although with accessible plumbing, you'd be surprised what you can do yourself). Good luck.
There are different levels of "fixed" Sometimes you gotta figure it out yourself and decide what you're willing to live with until you can do it right. Hell, there's shit around here I've been putting off for 15 years.
Keep that conversation open with home insurance. Fight it as much as you can so that they can cover it. Talk to engineer to see if he can word the report so that it has nothing to do with the pipe...
I’m just curious, what year was the house built? I have a friend who owned a house that was built in the 1880s and the sewer pipe was made of ceramic.
[удалено]
I had the main cast iron pipe that runs from one end of the house to the other epoxy lined. Cost about as much as digging up the floor without having to dig up the floor. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glW3VffZL4g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glW3VffZL4g) They have high speed rooters now that knock the rust out of the old cast iron pipes. If I knew about this before I did the liner, I'd have done this instead. Some people claim these descalers will crack the pipe.
Before anything, congrats on your purchase and excellent interest rate for today. Pipe Relining may have been a choice before all the demo work. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7hi-0jMnEI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7hi-0jMnEI) Video of pipe relining, its a real think and could save you all that demo/reconstruction work
Sigh. I’m a live in caregiver/house manager for an elderly woman. Same thing just happened. Old, probably original cast iron pipes. Whole house had to be redone. (It’s a big old Victorian) 40k!
Probably a temporary work-around is an electric macerating toilet that can pump itself and other drains connected to it through a small diameter pipe that can be routed up and over the trouble spot.
All of this will completely depend on your insurance and your title/inspection and whatever else they find when they rip up that slab.
It is what it is. Thankfully you have the funds to cover it.
Look on the bright side, you found out about the problem while it was an 18'' void and the slab slid a tiny bit. Hopefully this can be a localized remediation rather than jacking up the entire house to pour a new foundation from scratch.
Great job saving up that cash. Think of how big a world of hurt you’d be in right now without it.
At this point, there is not much you can do until an engineer looks at it. Best case, house jack, maybe mudjacking, who knows. As the other poster said, there is not much you can do now, but deal with it. Not what you want to hear, but you have done well managing your finances and are probably in better shape that 99.9% of folks.
Are you in Florida? We lived in Miami in a 70s house and we and most of our neighbors had to get the cast iron drain lines replaced one way or another. One house in the neighborhood had a sinkhole. We sold as is and gave buyers a “kickback” to cover repairs. You may be able to sue the sellers for nondisclosure? Lesson learned: never buy a house with cast iron plumbing.
When do they find the asbestos?
All houses have issues. Get a licensed union plumber and have it fixed. Get three quotes.
If the previous owners covered up the fact that the floor was sinking then you may be able to go after them. If you know the LVP was installed in 2016 and without it, the problems are obvious, then they should have known.
>then they should have known. That's not the standard. You have to prove that they knew.
You don't just rip up tiles and replace them then cover them all up with LVP for no reason.
They decided to spruce the place up.
The engineers' report dated 2022 stated no structural problems. The inspector found no problems as well.
The structural engineer isn't ripping up flooring to look at what is underneath it or drilling random holes in your foundation to check for stuff like this. The question is who tore up the floor to do what? What did they discover prior to 2016?
Engineers have many ways of non destructive testing, not to mention the entire house is tied to the foundation, and as such, there would be other signs that something was not right. 2022, a structural engineer deemed this home ok. In 2016, the homeowner put in new flooring, something people do all the time. Engineer reports are legal documents.
I do believe they knew it was a problem. But no way to prove that, just a he said she said situation
Unless you find a local plumber who came out to fix things and they still have records of the visit.
I'm surprised they put cast iron pipes in your 1973 house
If your insurance company says they won’t cover it, reach out to your state’s Department of Insurance. They’re the state’s regulatory agency for insurance companies; they basically police insurance companies and make sure they are doing their jobs. Every state has a Department of Insurance. They’ll help you deal with your insurance company.
This wouldn’t be covered by 99% of plans
The only way I can think part of it might be covered is the 'pop' sound when the plumbers were doing work which precipitated the sudden movement of the foundation. This indicates that it might have been a sudden occurence caused by an outside force and depending on the hows and whats and whys, it *could* be covered, but probably wouldn't
Fair it could but I’d say highly highly unlikely
Foundation repair won’t be 25k, and if it is you are getting ripped off. Most likely was an existing leak under the kitchen that caused the soil to heave. Plumbing leak gets fixed and the solid dries up causing it to compress back down resulting with that void. You need a poly injection to fill that void underneath the slab
Finance all the things you can of those things you said you want to buy, put that cash in a high yield savings account or investments, withdraw monthly to make payments. It's easy when you have money.
If you are friendly with the neighbors, you might ask if the previous owners mentioned having any issues with the foundation or floor in the kitchen. If it can be proven they knew there was a problem & didn’t disclose it there could be some recourse there. It sucks but fixing the house is going to be cheaper than moving if you could even sell your current place as is.
There's basically 0 chance this is on the previous owners. It's almost impossible to prove someone lied on a disclosure form, AND an engineering firm said everything was fine. This almost certainly happened during the OPs ownership and it's just part of owning a home.
The people suggesting going after the prior owners have no idea. It would have to be something very different than this. Homes across the country have all sorts of unpermitted work that causes various issues and the person who sold 2-15 years ago and did work on the house 2-25 years ago when they lived there are never sought and held to pay.
Unless you like to repair yourself - I'd say sell "as is".
I don’t always recommend debt but sounds like you’re budget conscious and earn a good living. Take out a heloc or finance the car to stretch your cash. Ps Zillow estimates are BS.