One thing worth remembering is that the vote Payman crossed the floor on wasn't about whether to recognise Palestine as a state. It was a vote on whether to have a vote on recognition of Palestine.
Labor and the Coalition are annoyed that the cross bench wanted them to put their position on the record, which seems pretty cowardly.
If that what her constituents ask her to do then she should be congratulated for doing what they wanted and fuck the party. That’s what being a member is about. Representing the people.
Her constituents are the whole state of Western Australia as she is a senator. The constituents who elected her voted for a party with a 2 state solution position, which she voted against.
2 state solution is a decades old talking point that most western politicians parrot while having zero interest in making an effort to bring the region to any solution resembling peace.
Well. This wasn’t an issue back at the election. If my senator is doing what people who are actively writing to her to ask for, then I have no issues with her crossing the floor and frankly, I’ve written to my MP expressing my view that should the party expel the senator then they are also losing a voter next year.
Not true- her vote was in line with the platform they took to the election. And the changes Labor wanted to make were actually not consistent with their platform- putting the proviso of a two state solution being 'part of a peace process in support of a two-state solution and a just and enduring peace' makes it part of the ongoing ceasefire process, rather than an agreed upon right.
Their platform puts a Palestinian state as the default, the change in language takes that away and frames the ceasefire as a necessary step prior to Palestine being recognized as a state.
She's not an MP, she's a senator. She doesn't have constituents. And no, she knew that signing up to me a member of the Labor party barred you from crossing the floor. She should be expelled based on Labor party rules and then sit as an independent
Yes, for state matters. That's the role of the senate. Not for personal views on a foreign conflict. My wording is probably off, meaning she doesn't represent individual constituencies.
Could be argued senators represent the state's point of view instead of being restricted to only state matters. They represent the state and the state is made up of individual constituent members. All people are voting for in an election is the representatives personal opinion which are by extension the party platform in which candidates chose to align with. Although it could be argued, how much this actually applies for a senator where people usually vote for the party.
If my taxpayer dollars contribute to the genocide of the Palestinian people, I expect all my representatives, state and federal to take a stance or my vote will not go towards them. Please spare me from your nonsensical argument.
To represent the state on state matters. Not vote on personal issues, which she clearly has done. She was chosen to represent WA as a member of the ALP.
She is an Afghani Muslim who ended her remarks with "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free". Yeah I'd bey we have an immigrant with strong religious views rather than representing WA.
What do you mean by this? What religious view?
She is an Aussie, she has tried to revoke Afghan citizenship, but unable to do because of the Taliban takeover in 2021.
Muslims are loyal to their religion (including sharia law) before a western country which is backward to them. She has no place in government, and she certainly is not an Aussie.
Disagree brother/sister.
You can be loyal to both your faith and your people.
Adherence to Religion, nation/state and people is not mutually exclusive.
Disagree.
One side of my family are Muslim. I grew up with Muslims. I was openly told to my face by a school friend, that he could never consider me a true friend unless I reverted to Islam.
V 33:1 Do not obey unbelievers. This in the Quran. Certain religions have a culture of loose or strict interpretation.
To be a Muslim, is to to submit. You are told to have this in your heart and practice this as a part of your religious practice.
So, in the end, if forced to choose between loyal to Islam or Australia Rule, I know what Muslims would choose.
So the labs are undemocratic? You have to do what the party says and vote as a block even if it is agaibst your constituents? Sounds pretty draconian. Might as well vote lib if there is no difference to the labs infact even some of the libs have been able to cross the floor so even more draconian than the libs.
That is how parties should logically work. They vote behind the scenes as part of the caucus and then present a unified front in parliament against the opposition. It's very democratic and one of the things preventing us from becoming fully like the Americans where personality matters more than policy (although we are drifting that way fast)
Not really democratic because if you vote no behind the scenes, inline with your constituents, and the party wants a yes, you are pressured to go against a section of the population even if it is a smaller or larger section. Its more like an excuse for lobbyists and undemocratic processes to find a way in.
Exactly you are in that position because they voted for you to be their voice
Not the parties puppet
Labour is going to lose much more votes to greens and teals and independants with heavy handed BS like this.
And like it or not, people are waking up to the negatives and harms that a party system can do for minorities in a society.
We have preferential voting.
And using it properly will allow those minorities to have a voice that otherwise would never be heard.
We aren't in America, where a distinct two party system fractures a nation, more than working towards a collective common good where all sides, voices and ideas are heard.
I'm all for Labour and Nationals and Liberals losing seats.
Oh please… Liberal Party would expect the same as Labour- both parties constantly have “vote with the party” and not conscience voting- if you think that the Liberal or Labour parties are fundamentally different you’d be wrong. Different policies maybe- interested in making things better for anyone but themselves not a chance.
Demonstrably untrue. Lib members have sided against their own party far more often than Labor and without punishment like "you're not allowed to come to our meetings any more".
There's a website you can see this info for yourself.
“Fatima – you're nothing to me now. You're not a sister, you're not a friend. I don't want to know you or what you do. I don't want to see you at the party room meetings. I don't want you near Kirribilli House. When you see Penny Wong, I want to know a day in advance so I won't be there. You understand?”
Regardless of your opinion on her reason for doing this not a good look for any political party when they want to punish one of their members for actually having principles and sticking to them
It’s Labor policy that members must not vote against the Party policy in a Parliamentary Vote unless it has been declared a “conscience vote”, which this one wasn’t. The idea is that the MPs are there to represent the Party and do not hold seats in their own right. The Party rules are that they get expelled if they break this rule.
If Albanese and company don’t expel her, they are going to have to change this rule. Or just have yet another double standard. If it had been someone else and another issue the “perpetrator” would have been out on their arse. But how can they now kick out a member who votes against the Party position because they have a personal stance? It’s a big issue for Labor.
The policy in question here seems to be that "Labor should not have to reveal their policy on whether Palestine should be recognised as a state".
It's quite possible she would have crossed the floor on a vote about recognition, but no such vote occurred. Labor would be in their rights to kick her out, but that would likely draw even more attention to their non-policy.
She voted *against* the Party position in a Parliamentary vote. Under Labor’s rules, which she signed up to, she should be expelled. The most a member is allowed to do is abstain by not attending the vote.
That doesn't seem to be [the opinion of the deputy PM](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/jun/26/labor-will-not-expel-fatima-payman-for-crossing-floor-to-support-palestine-motion):
> Although Labor’s rules allow for expulsion as a possible consequence of crossing the floor, Marles explained that this sanction was not “mandated” and it was “not unprecedented” for a Labor parliamentarian to cross the floor and not be expelled.
That’s not an “opinion” so much as a political statement. Albanese and Co had already decided to not expel her, and so he’s playing a little game of spin.
It was not a conscience vote. Are they now going to apply this standard to the rest of the ALP members? Plenty of them would personally disagree with positions of the broader Party on many other issues!
The truth is that she’s a Hijab wearing Muslim woman, and Albanese is going lightly to try and shore up votes in places like Lakemba and amongst a certain type of “progressive” who seems to inhabit these pages.
But having set this example, how can he expel anyone else who votes in accordance with their conscience? Marles is now publicly declaring it’s “not mandated”. So why should someone who crosses the floor on another issue (other than a vote of No Confidence) expects to be expelled? This will be a problem for Labor into the future.
One possibility is that Labor is more divided on this issue internally than they let on. So while their rules allow for expulsion, doing so might cause more problems than letting it slide.
Yep, can't be that there are tons of people with opposing views to you, must be some big conspiracy with lots of money being pumped into reddit comments. Sound like the MAGA nuts blaming everything on some deep state conspiracy.
> Should we talk about why the Jews now live in Israel?
Because after WW2 [no European countries wanted to accept them and sent them off to Palestine](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/postwar-refugee-crisis-and-the-establishment-of-the-state-of-israel).
Oh, you thought the West actually cared about the Jews post war? Hilarious that you have no idea. lmao.
How pathetic, 1 million in population, yet can't figure out how to connect to the net and rely on another country. Wtf were they learning at those universities? Projectile motion LMAO!
Throwing away your political career over a fairly niche foreign policy issue.
It's well known that the ALP does not tolerate internal dissent and floor crossings and she would have being well aware of that when she was preselected.
She was an outside chance last election anyway and probably got in on the McGowan factor. She’s said she realises this is her only term in parliament prior to yesterday.
It's such a strange hill to die on as an Australian politician. No matter what the Australian government does, what happens in Palestine is going to be exactly the same. We have no power in this conflict. We can't make a difference. It's on the other side of the world and has nothing to do with us. It makes no sense to make a stance on this.
It's quite odd that this is the first time since 1986 that an ALP parliamentarian has crossed the floor in government and this is the issue that causes it to happen.
It’s not strange at all, her loyalty is with foreign people because they are also Muslim, as this country becomes more diverse we will see more of this, loyalty to Clan and niche foreign issues will become more common as our parliament becomes more diverse and reflects the diversity of the nation they serve. She may be Australian but with people like her, faith comes first and foremost, and loyalty to that will come above loyalty to Australia. Whether you think this is good or bad is for you to decide.
Well someone posted a while ago on another sub that she was under intense personal pressure from her community to be more vocal about her stance on the issue, but ethnic politics playing out is not new in this country just look at the influence of the Irish in the previous century.
Here is an example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Mahon
My point wasn’t that it’s new, it was that it will become more common as Australia becomes more diverse, unless your argument is that Australia isn’t becoming more diverse I don’t know what your intention was here. It could be good or bad depending on your own views, but clan based politics is going to become more common and it will divide us. Meritocracy is dying in Australia.
I'm not defending ethnic clan politics and i am very much an opponent of it, partially if there interests are Anti Australian or Anti Western, but it will be a difficult balancing act to ensure the diversity of the nation is represented in parliament without it injecting divisive ethnic politics into the mainstream.
Preposterous. Meritocracy absolutely existed and exists in parts of this country where clan based thinking is not common, notably areas with little migration. In my home town a lot of kids used to work in doughnut king, until a south Asian lady became manager, within 6 months not a single Australian worked there, only south Asian students… I’ve never had a hard time getting a job on merit except when the hiring manager was south Asian. I’ve been told not to bother applying for rentals by an Asian realtor in an Asian majority area. Nothing of the sort would ever happen in my home town that is majority white, we assess applications based on weather you’re a good tenant, not the colour of your skin.
Where is the evidence of previous meritocracy?
Do we think that only white heterosexual men were previously worthy of being elected? Of being PM? That was meritocratic?
Don’t put words in my mouth.
Here are some sources;
1. "The Lucky Country" by Donald Horne: This book, published in 1964, critiques various aspects of Australian society but also highlights the country's meritocratic elements, particularly in the context of economic opportunities and the idea of a fair go.
2. “Social Mobility in Australia" by R. D. Pitt and M. M. P. Allen: This paper, published in the journal *American Sociological Review* in 1967, provides an analysis of social mobility in Australia, indicating a relatively high degree of mobility compared to other countries at the time.
3. "Australian Society: Introductory Essays" edited by Stephen Crook, Jan Pakulski, and Malcolm Waters: This collection of essays provides an overview of Australian society, including discussions on meritocracy and social mobility.
4. "Inequality in Australia" by Fred Argy: This book discusses the economic and social structures in Australia, including periods when meritocratic principles were more pronounced.
5. "The Australian Dream: Housing Experiences of Older Australians" by John Doling and Marja Elsinga: This book includes historical perspectives on housing policies in Australia, which were often based on meritocratic principles aimed at providing fair opportunities for home ownership.
6. Government Reports and Historical Documents: Various government reports and historical documents from the mid-20th century, such as the reports from the Committee of Inquiry into Education and Training (the Williams Report, 1979), reflect meritocratic ideals in policies related to education and workforce development.
These sources provide evidence and discussions around the meritocratic aspects of Australia's society and policies in different historical contexts. You’re welcome.
I have to agree that there is nothing new about ethnic communities having their own political blocks in Australia, and I disagree with the parent comment that it is becoming more common, it's been important for a long time. Pretty difficult to overstate how formative groups like Irish Catholics and Vietnamese refugees have been on the contemporary Australian identity.
Moral support of a kind, but not weapons. Israel’s arms industry is far bigger than ours, and we don’t make the aircraft that are used to bomb the strip.
1.5 million dollars worth of moral support that can kill... https://greens.org.au/news/media-release/australia-exported-15-million-worth-weapons-israel-february-2024-fresh-dfat-data
The Greens? You’ve got to be joking. They’ve claimed these exports occur but haven’t actually said what they are. See here: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-14/is-australia-sending-weapons-to-israel/103975910
My understanding these “exports” include weapons systems WE bought off of THEM which are sent back for repair or servicing.
So no itemisation of these “weapons”, just an assertion. And $13 million over 5 years would indicate that it’s very tiny part of Israel’s military machine even if it isn’t misrepresented - which is highly likely.
The Australian government should call it what it is: genocide. Stop military exports (which has been proven via foi to be continuing), and kick the ambassador out, amongst other things like ending the contract with Eibet for a billion dollars. Just do the decent thing. Take a stand. At this point, you either stand for the mass slaughter and starvation of children or you don’t and are compelled to speak out about it.
You know if they wanted to they could genocide like they did in Rwanda right? 800,000 deaths in two months. Why are they showing restraint. What kind of genocide shows restraint?
The type that uses conflict as a scapegoat while under scrutiny of international attention, especially when the perpetrators are reliant on nations such as the US.
We can cut off Israels access to the Americans space assets through pine gap. Losing most if not all of their access to high resolution thermal imaging satellites would make Iran or hezbollahs job a walk in the park. Saying Australia has no power is just a cop out.
How would that work. Don’t the yanks control who has access to their own assets? Do we really have any power over that? Surely they would tell us to kick rocks.
Not always, was a British vassal. The thing is, it's not at all talked about. So it's odd for you to just say it as a given, without discussing the bigger picture, is like giving up before the conversation is even had.
Like when's the last time there was any kind of conversation about the legitimacy of US bases in Australia. Not since the 70s. These conversations need to be had, not subtly skipped over and taken as a given.
A satellite over Israel can’t downlink to a base station in Australia - it wouldn’t have LoS. Imagery from the Middle East would downlink via an RAF base in the UK.
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If you make it more difficult for Israel to defend themselves their only option would be to be much more aggressive. All you would be doing is making war more deadly on both sides.
You're right, Israel should stop pulling their punches and go for total war until they have complete victory. After all, there's no chance for peace /s
I find it rather disturbing that many responses to this post argue that the party is right to exclude her, simply because the party has a rule that you can't cross the floor.
Really? Are you capable of thinking for yourself? Just because a rule exists it's not necessarily a good or right rule. Being required to toe the party line, no matter what, doesn't sound like democracy to me.
Well done to Senator Payman for sticking with her constituents. Labor clearly didn't want to endorse a 2 state solution without setting conditions. Make up your mind its not anti Semitic to recognise Palestine
I can see why you think this, but history suggests that Australian domestic politics can matter for these international matters. Bob Hawke and the labour movement did a lot to add pressure against Apartheid from the 1950s onwards. The attempted boycott of Israeli shipping lines is probably inspired by equivalent actions against Apartheid South Africa.
https://atui.org.au/2021/10/25/why-nelson-mandela-thanked-the-australian-union-movement/
No, it doesn’t go both ways. The Palestinian people have experienced 75 years of occupation and now face the current genocidal onslaught, meanwhile Australia has done fuck all to oppose it. There are no economic sanctions, and Australian companies are still permitted to produce technologies used to kill over 40,000 Palestinians. I beg you to read statements made by any human rights organisation, look at the statistics, and look at the footage of Gaza.
Or maybe he grew a back bone and he’s enforcing his own parties rules.
Why don’t you just come straight out and say who you think is influencing him? No need to be obtuse.
Everyone knows, except you apparently. Voting the party line has been a Labor rule for a long time, Albo has enforced them. Surprised he didn't take the soft appeasement route, good to see him make a stand.
Will Senator Glenn Sterle cross the floor when voting on the live sheep exports? If he doesn’t, the truckers he represents have got to be angry with him
His a trucker from way back…he has been driving trucks old school, for around 45 years.
One thing worth remembering is that the vote Payman crossed the floor on wasn't about whether to recognise Palestine as a state. It was a vote on whether to have a vote on recognition of Palestine. Labor and the Coalition are annoyed that the cross bench wanted them to put their position on the record, which seems pretty cowardly.
If that what her constituents ask her to do then she should be congratulated for doing what they wanted and fuck the party. That’s what being a member is about. Representing the people.
Her constituents are the whole state of Western Australia as she is a senator. The constituents who elected her voted for a party with a 2 state solution position, which she voted against.
2 state solution is a decades old talking point that most western politicians parrot while having zero interest in making an effort to bring the region to any solution resembling peace.
Well. This wasn’t an issue back at the election. If my senator is doing what people who are actively writing to her to ask for, then I have no issues with her crossing the floor and frankly, I’ve written to my MP expressing my view that should the party expel the senator then they are also losing a voter next year.
Well done mate.
Not true- her vote was in line with the platform they took to the election. And the changes Labor wanted to make were actually not consistent with their platform- putting the proviso of a two state solution being 'part of a peace process in support of a two-state solution and a just and enduring peace' makes it part of the ongoing ceasefire process, rather than an agreed upon right. Their platform puts a Palestinian state as the default, the change in language takes that away and frames the ceasefire as a necessary step prior to Palestine being recognized as a state.
Can confirm. I am from WA and I wanted this. I feel heard.
She's not an MP, she's a senator. She doesn't have constituents. And no, she knew that signing up to me a member of the Labor party barred you from crossing the floor. She should be expelled based on Labor party rules and then sit as an independent
What are you drinking mate? She's still a "representative" and the people she represents are in WA. Good lord.
Yes, for state matters. That's the role of the senate. Not for personal views on a foreign conflict. My wording is probably off, meaning she doesn't represent individual constituencies.
Could be argued senators represent the state's point of view instead of being restricted to only state matters. They represent the state and the state is made up of individual constituent members. All people are voting for in an election is the representatives personal opinion which are by extension the party platform in which candidates chose to align with. Although it could be argued, how much this actually applies for a senator where people usually vote for the party.
If my taxpayer dollars contribute to the genocide of the Palestinian people, I expect all my representatives, state and federal to take a stance or my vote will not go towards them. Please spare me from your nonsensical argument.
She does have constituents ie the whole of WA you
To represent the state on state matters. Not vote on personal issues, which she clearly has done. She was chosen to represent WA as a member of the ALP.
Yes, she can still do that. Just not as a member of the Labor Party.
She is an Afghani Muslim who ended her remarks with "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free". Yeah I'd bey we have an immigrant with strong religious views rather than representing WA.
What do you mean by this? What religious view? She is an Aussie, she has tried to revoke Afghan citizenship, but unable to do because of the Taliban takeover in 2021.
Muslims are loyal to their religion (including sharia law) before a western country which is backward to them. She has no place in government, and she certainly is not an Aussie.
This is the kind of rhetoric that is prolific in the American South. You sound like a yank. Are you sure your an Aussie?
Disagree brother/sister. You can be loyal to both your faith and your people. Adherence to Religion, nation/state and people is not mutually exclusive.
Disagree. One side of my family are Muslim. I grew up with Muslims. I was openly told to my face by a school friend, that he could never consider me a true friend unless I reverted to Islam. V 33:1 Do not obey unbelievers. This in the Quran. Certain religions have a culture of loose or strict interpretation. To be a Muslim, is to to submit. You are told to have this in your heart and practice this as a part of your religious practice. So, in the end, if forced to choose between loyal to Islam or Australia Rule, I know what Muslims would choose.
Feel free to provide any evidence.
Oh lord, here come the racists, out from their government housing. Yeah mate, immigrants took all the jobs, that's why your so miserable. Go away now.
That isn't how the ALP works. If she wants to vote against the party line she can join the greens or libs
So the labs are undemocratic? You have to do what the party says and vote as a block even if it is agaibst your constituents? Sounds pretty draconian. Might as well vote lib if there is no difference to the labs infact even some of the libs have been able to cross the floor so even more draconian than the libs.
That is how parties should logically work. They vote behind the scenes as part of the caucus and then present a unified front in parliament against the opposition. It's very democratic and one of the things preventing us from becoming fully like the Americans where personality matters more than policy (although we are drifting that way fast)
Not really democratic because if you vote no behind the scenes, inline with your constituents, and the party wants a yes, you are pressured to go against a section of the population even if it is a smaller or larger section. Its more like an excuse for lobbyists and undemocratic processes to find a way in.
Exactly you are in that position because they voted for you to be their voice Not the parties puppet Labour is going to lose much more votes to greens and teals and independants with heavy handed BS like this.
Like it or not, people vote on party lines, not for individuals 9 times out of 10. This is how a party system works.
And like it or not, people are waking up to the negatives and harms that a party system can do for minorities in a society. We have preferential voting. And using it properly will allow those minorities to have a voice that otherwise would never be heard. We aren't in America, where a distinct two party system fractures a nation, more than working towards a collective common good where all sides, voices and ideas are heard. I'm all for Labour and Nationals and Liberals losing seats.
Oh please… Liberal Party would expect the same as Labour- both parties constantly have “vote with the party” and not conscience voting- if you think that the Liberal or Labour parties are fundamentally different you’d be wrong. Different policies maybe- interested in making things better for anyone but themselves not a chance.
Demonstrably untrue. Lib members have sided against their own party far more often than Labor and without punishment like "you're not allowed to come to our meetings any more". There's a website you can see this info for yourself.
Do 5 mins research. Libs and ALP have different rules.
Completely wrong.
She’s not crossing the floor to advance Aboriginal rights, it’s self interest.
Good.. she can join the Greens.
100% agree.
“Fatima – you're nothing to me now. You're not a sister, you're not a friend. I don't want to know you or what you do. I don't want to see you at the party room meetings. I don't want you near Kirribilli House. When you see Penny Wong, I want to know a day in advance so I won't be there. You understand?”
Regardless of your opinion on her reason for doing this not a good look for any political party when they want to punish one of their members for actually having principles and sticking to them
It’s Labor policy that members must not vote against the Party policy in a Parliamentary Vote unless it has been declared a “conscience vote”, which this one wasn’t. The idea is that the MPs are there to represent the Party and do not hold seats in their own right. The Party rules are that they get expelled if they break this rule. If Albanese and company don’t expel her, they are going to have to change this rule. Or just have yet another double standard. If it had been someone else and another issue the “perpetrator” would have been out on their arse. But how can they now kick out a member who votes against the Party position because they have a personal stance? It’s a big issue for Labor.
The policy in question here seems to be that "Labor should not have to reveal their policy on whether Palestine should be recognised as a state". It's quite possible she would have crossed the floor on a vote about recognition, but no such vote occurred. Labor would be in their rights to kick her out, but that would likely draw even more attention to their non-policy.
She voted *against* the Party position in a Parliamentary vote. Under Labor’s rules, which she signed up to, she should be expelled. The most a member is allowed to do is abstain by not attending the vote.
That doesn't seem to be [the opinion of the deputy PM](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/jun/26/labor-will-not-expel-fatima-payman-for-crossing-floor-to-support-palestine-motion): > Although Labor’s rules allow for expulsion as a possible consequence of crossing the floor, Marles explained that this sanction was not “mandated” and it was “not unprecedented” for a Labor parliamentarian to cross the floor and not be expelled.
That’s not an “opinion” so much as a political statement. Albanese and Co had already decided to not expel her, and so he’s playing a little game of spin. It was not a conscience vote. Are they now going to apply this standard to the rest of the ALP members? Plenty of them would personally disagree with positions of the broader Party on many other issues! The truth is that she’s a Hijab wearing Muslim woman, and Albanese is going lightly to try and shore up votes in places like Lakemba and amongst a certain type of “progressive” who seems to inhabit these pages. But having set this example, how can he expel anyone else who votes in accordance with their conscience? Marles is now publicly declaring it’s “not mandated”. So why should someone who crosses the floor on another issue (other than a vote of No Confidence) expects to be expelled? This will be a problem for Labor into the future.
One possibility is that Labor is more divided on this issue internally than they let on. So while their rules allow for expulsion, doing so might cause more problems than letting it slide.
> this not a good look for any political party It's also a really bad look to have the party look like they aren't united especially for labor.
So many Zionists in this post.
Yup. Israel has a lot of money to spend promoting its' genocidal, ethnofascist ideology. Ask our politicians about their "donations".
Yup impossible others have different beliefs to yours, must be an Israeli conspiracy
People in this thread already obtusely stating that “someone must have had a nice talk with our PM” … it’s always one big conspiracy to these types.
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Yep, can't be that there are tons of people with opposing views to you, must be some big conspiracy with lots of money being pumped into reddit comments. Sound like the MAGA nuts blaming everything on some deep state conspiracy.
Bless. It's on the record now. Nice try though.
They're pumping so much money into propoganda too.
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> Should we talk about why the Jews now live in Israel? Because after WW2 [no European countries wanted to accept them and sent them off to Palestine](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/postwar-refugee-crisis-and-the-establishment-of-the-state-of-israel). Oh, you thought the West actually cared about the Jews post war? Hilarious that you have no idea. lmao.
I feel like blowing babies apart and calling it being a little overzealous is quite the understatement
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How pathetic, 1 million in population, yet can't figure out how to connect to the net and rely on another country. Wtf were they learning at those universities? Projectile motion LMAO!
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Throwing away your political career over a fairly niche foreign policy issue. It's well known that the ALP does not tolerate internal dissent and floor crossings and she would have being well aware of that when she was preselected.
She was an outside chance last election anyway and probably got in on the McGowan factor. She’s said she realises this is her only term in parliament prior to yesterday.
Acknowledging the existence of a country which exists is not a "niche foreign policy issue".
Which country? The Hamas controlled Gaza Strip, or the West Bank which is still under the “administration” of the Palestinian Authority?
Very niche
It's such a strange hill to die on as an Australian politician. No matter what the Australian government does, what happens in Palestine is going to be exactly the same. We have no power in this conflict. We can't make a difference. It's on the other side of the world and has nothing to do with us. It makes no sense to make a stance on this.
It's quite odd that this is the first time since 1986 that an ALP parliamentarian has crossed the floor in government and this is the issue that causes it to happen.
It’s not strange at all, her loyalty is with foreign people because they are also Muslim, as this country becomes more diverse we will see more of this, loyalty to Clan and niche foreign issues will become more common as our parliament becomes more diverse and reflects the diversity of the nation they serve. She may be Australian but with people like her, faith comes first and foremost, and loyalty to that will come above loyalty to Australia. Whether you think this is good or bad is for you to decide.
How dare you have a nuanced view on the internet. Bravo.
Well someone posted a while ago on another sub that she was under intense personal pressure from her community to be more vocal about her stance on the issue, but ethnic politics playing out is not new in this country just look at the influence of the Irish in the previous century. Here is an example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Mahon
My point wasn’t that it’s new, it was that it will become more common as Australia becomes more diverse, unless your argument is that Australia isn’t becoming more diverse I don’t know what your intention was here. It could be good or bad depending on your own views, but clan based politics is going to become more common and it will divide us. Meritocracy is dying in Australia.
I'm not defending ethnic clan politics and i am very much an opponent of it, partially if there interests are Anti Australian or Anti Western, but it will be a difficult balancing act to ensure the diversity of the nation is represented in parliament without it injecting divisive ethnic politics into the mainstream.
I agree.
Meritocracy never existed. Is Australia becoming more diverse? If so then the political class will become more diverse also?
Preposterous. Meritocracy absolutely existed and exists in parts of this country where clan based thinking is not common, notably areas with little migration. In my home town a lot of kids used to work in doughnut king, until a south Asian lady became manager, within 6 months not a single Australian worked there, only south Asian students… I’ve never had a hard time getting a job on merit except when the hiring manager was south Asian. I’ve been told not to bother applying for rentals by an Asian realtor in an Asian majority area. Nothing of the sort would ever happen in my home town that is majority white, we assess applications based on weather you’re a good tenant, not the colour of your skin.
Where is the evidence of previous meritocracy? Do we think that only white heterosexual men were previously worthy of being elected? Of being PM? That was meritocratic?
Don’t put words in my mouth. Here are some sources; 1. "The Lucky Country" by Donald Horne: This book, published in 1964, critiques various aspects of Australian society but also highlights the country's meritocratic elements, particularly in the context of economic opportunities and the idea of a fair go. 2. “Social Mobility in Australia" by R. D. Pitt and M. M. P. Allen: This paper, published in the journal *American Sociological Review* in 1967, provides an analysis of social mobility in Australia, indicating a relatively high degree of mobility compared to other countries at the time. 3. "Australian Society: Introductory Essays" edited by Stephen Crook, Jan Pakulski, and Malcolm Waters: This collection of essays provides an overview of Australian society, including discussions on meritocracy and social mobility. 4. "Inequality in Australia" by Fred Argy: This book discusses the economic and social structures in Australia, including periods when meritocratic principles were more pronounced. 5. "The Australian Dream: Housing Experiences of Older Australians" by John Doling and Marja Elsinga: This book includes historical perspectives on housing policies in Australia, which were often based on meritocratic principles aimed at providing fair opportunities for home ownership. 6. Government Reports and Historical Documents: Various government reports and historical documents from the mid-20th century, such as the reports from the Committee of Inquiry into Education and Training (the Williams Report, 1979), reflect meritocratic ideals in policies related to education and workforce development. These sources provide evidence and discussions around the meritocratic aspects of Australia's society and policies in different historical contexts. You’re welcome.
I have to agree that there is nothing new about ethnic communities having their own political blocks in Australia, and I disagree with the parent comment that it is becoming more common, it's been important for a long time. Pretty difficult to overstate how formative groups like Irish Catholics and Vietnamese refugees have been on the contemporary Australian identity.
We are supplying weapons and diplomatic support, no?
Moral support of a kind, but not weapons. Israel’s arms industry is far bigger than ours, and we don’t make the aircraft that are used to bomb the strip.
1.5 million dollars worth of moral support that can kill... https://greens.org.au/news/media-release/australia-exported-15-million-worth-weapons-israel-february-2024-fresh-dfat-data
The Greens? You’ve got to be joking. They’ve claimed these exports occur but haven’t actually said what they are. See here: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-14/is-australia-sending-weapons-to-israel/103975910 My understanding these “exports” include weapons systems WE bought off of THEM which are sent back for repair or servicing.
Australia is supplying arms to Israel… Australia is directly impacting the situation… worse still profiting from it.
Care to name what these “weapons” were supposedly supplied to Israel are? You do realise they have a much bigger arms industry than we do don’t you?
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So no itemisation of these “weapons”, just an assertion. And $13 million over 5 years would indicate that it’s very tiny part of Israel’s military machine even if it isn’t misrepresented - which is highly likely.
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The Australian government should call it what it is: genocide. Stop military exports (which has been proven via foi to be continuing), and kick the ambassador out, amongst other things like ending the contract with Eibet for a billion dollars. Just do the decent thing. Take a stand. At this point, you either stand for the mass slaughter and starvation of children or you don’t and are compelled to speak out about it.
Everything is black and white huh
justify child murder harder
I don't think you know what that word means.
You know if they wanted to they could genocide like they did in Rwanda right? 800,000 deaths in two months. Why are they showing restraint. What kind of genocide shows restraint?
The type that uses conflict as a scapegoat while under scrutiny of international attention, especially when the perpetrators are reliant on nations such as the US.
Do you have development delays?
They like to see children die slowly from hunger?
This. Also, don’t be USA pet puppy.
Is she really an Australian politician if this is her main issue?
We can cut off Israels access to the Americans space assets through pine gap. Losing most if not all of their access to high resolution thermal imaging satellites would make Iran or hezbollahs job a walk in the park. Saying Australia has no power is just a cop out.
You have zero understanding of how Pine Gap, and the Australia/ America military alliance works if you think this is even remotely possible.
Yeah australia is a client state and has no sovereignty it is nothing more then a quarry with delusions of grandeur.
How would that work. Don’t the yanks control who has access to their own assets? Do we really have any power over that? Surely they would tell us to kick rocks.
If you're actually stating we have no power over what the US does with/on Australian soil, then you're just stating Australia is a us vassal.
Yeah? And? Always has been mate.
Not always, was a British vassal. The thing is, it's not at all talked about. So it's odd for you to just say it as a given, without discussing the bigger picture, is like giving up before the conversation is even had. Like when's the last time there was any kind of conversation about the legitimacy of US bases in Australia. Not since the 70s. These conversations need to be had, not subtly skipped over and taken as a given.
Ummm… yes? We know this.
A satellite over Israel can’t downlink to a base station in Australia - it wouldn’t have LoS. Imagery from the Middle East would downlink via an RAF base in the UK.
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If you make it more difficult for Israel to defend themselves their only option would be to be much more aggressive. All you would be doing is making war more deadly on both sides.
Famously, appeasement has worked before right? /s
You're right, Israel should stop pulling their punches and go for total war until they have complete victory. After all, there's no chance for peace /s
I’d imagine there would be some real external pressure for her to show her support? IYKYK
Exactly this, why is Albanese so scared to hold a vote, on whether they should hold a vote on the recognition of Palestine.
She's not throwing it away at all, she'll find a home in a party that better matches her beliefs.
And a party that won't give her a real chance at re-election.
Let’s hope so
She is not a team player, so that’s a good thing.
I find it rather disturbing that many responses to this post argue that the party is right to exclude her, simply because the party has a rule that you can't cross the floor. Really? Are you capable of thinking for yourself? Just because a rule exists it's not necessarily a good or right rule. Being required to toe the party line, no matter what, doesn't sound like democracy to me.
Well done to Senator Payman for sticking with her constituents. Labor clearly didn't want to endorse a 2 state solution without setting conditions. Make up your mind its not anti Semitic to recognise Palestine
Whats the point of this where australia has no say in this matter
I can see why you think this, but history suggests that Australian domestic politics can matter for these international matters. Bob Hawke and the labour movement did a lot to add pressure against Apartheid from the 1950s onwards. The attempted boycott of Israeli shipping lines is probably inspired by equivalent actions against Apartheid South Africa. https://atui.org.au/2021/10/25/why-nelson-mandela-thanked-the-australian-union-movement/
Why do you think they don't have a say?
Exactly this, why is Albanese so scared to hold a vote, on whether they should hold a vote on the recognition of Palestine.
Just remember that thenightly is the latest 7West & Stokes platform; so take the beat up and outrage in the context of who is serving it up to you
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the recognition of Palestine and the prevention of civilians deaths does nothing to harm israelis
No, it doesn’t go both ways. The Palestinian people have experienced 75 years of occupation and now face the current genocidal onslaught, meanwhile Australia has done fuck all to oppose it. There are no economic sanctions, and Australian companies are still permitted to produce technologies used to kill over 40,000 Palestinians. I beg you to read statements made by any human rights organisation, look at the statistics, and look at the footage of Gaza.
What a bunch of gross outdated rules.
How about a vote on releasing the F…ing hostages
The Palestinian hostages being held by the IDF? Yes, I totally agree
Held for what reasons? Why are these Israeli civilians being held ? Why were they tortured and raped?
Misleading headline.. it’s one singular caucus meeting
Good.
She seems naive as a politician, falling for the Greens' games so easily.
Yeah. Fancy not supporting genocide.
Only one person in the debate supported genocide, Lidia Thorpe. She voted for the motion.
Lol.
This is funny to you?
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Lol. Nice strawman Einstein. 😂🤣😅
Seems someone had a ‘nice’ talk with our PM. 😉
Or maybe he grew a back bone and he’s enforcing his own parties rules. Why don’t you just come straight out and say who you think is influencing him? No need to be obtuse.
You know recognising Palestine is literally part of Labor's platform, right? Albo is reneging on his own party's position here.
Who knows? Given that our parliament is pack with foreign influences, it could be anyone. 😉
Everyone knows, except you apparently. Voting the party line has been a Labor rule for a long time, Albo has enforced them. Surprised he didn't take the soft appeasement route, good to see him make a stand.
Never criticise our dear leader… 😉
Probably promised Albanese a Palestinians home for his rental portfolio.
She's a attention seeking rat, good riddance.
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You seem clever.
If she stays in the party then im out. Ive been alp for 40 years .
You've been voting for the wrong party then, the Liberals align more with your views.
imagine thinking there are only two options lol
Wet lettuce leaf
Impordant comment.
Will Senator Glenn Sterle cross the floor when voting on the live sheep exports? If he doesn’t, the truckers he represents have got to be angry with him His a trucker from way back…he has been driving trucks old school, for around 45 years.
Lol
So let me get thus straight...