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"Donald Trump is still facing accountability for his staggering fraud. The court has already found that he engaged in years of fraud to falsely inflate his net worth and unjustly enrich himself, his family, and his organization. The $464 million judgment – plus interest – against Donald Trump and the other defendants still stands," James said in a statement.
So... correct me if I'm wrong here. Is he still paying interest on the full amount or the reduced?
I still expect he won't pay the reduced amount either and another excuse will be made to reduce it further
Exactly they are getting him to pony up the money in part which will just make recovering the full amount easier when the appeal fails and they get to additionally appear as if they are being lenient and reasonable.
My fear as well. I want to live in a country where a correct ruling doesn't get overturned just because the person it was made against is real popular with certain billionaires, but it increasingly looks like maybe I don't live in such a country.
I think those at the top are forgetting that the law is an agreement. It is a promise to the people, saying "you don't need to riot or take matters into your own hands, because the guilty will be held responsible by our legal system, regardless of position." If the state is reneging on the latter part of that agreement, the people will be justified in reneging on the former.
The law needs to apply to everyone equally or it isn’t law. It privilege or persecution
Edit: To all of the people responding by telling me ‘that’s not how it works’. Yeah, okay, I get that. But that is how it _should be_.That is the goal we all should be working towards. If we are not there _yet_ how do we get there?
Frank Wilhoit [blog post](https://crookedtimber.org/2018/03/21/liberals-against-progressives/#comment-729288)
The corollary of the law cannot protect anyone unless it binds everyone; and it cannot bind anyone unless it protects everyone is also true.
Only if they are people with money. If you don’t have money, then I guess it depends what your skin color is. That determines which people have to pay the consequences of their actions or not.
Try 1780. Who do you think the founding fathers were? They were a bunch of rich slave owning dudes that didn't want to pay taxes and were perfectly happy to kill a bunch of poor people to achieve that. This is the founding principle of this country.
Or because you complain loudly that life is so unfair, boohoo! If this was your regular Joe being fined in a regular court in which the fine completely strapped them and they couldn’t pay rent or buy food, the court would hand them a list of resources (maybe) and tell them to figure it out. Trump gets special treatment in our legal system because he’s rich and it’s bullshit!!
He has a monopoly on a minority. They're so loud it's often difficult to remember how few they are, but we have to remember that Trump's extremists are very much a minority of people.
And yes, this ruling being overturned wouldn't likely be enough to get people rioting in the streets, I grant you. But riots are never caused by single incidents. They're caused by an accumulation of incidents over time, each a log on the pile, which is then set off by an inciting incident, often just the wrong event or revelation at just the wrong time, which sets the pile ablaze. Due to Trump's high visibility and his brazen disregard for the law, this ruling being overturned would make for an awfully big log. If Trump were to then, say, seize power by force, I think the public response would not be a quiet one. I think the public would not be content to sit quietly and "see how this all plays out." Maybe I'm the fool for that, though.
You have never lived in such a country and never will. American institutions are designed to protect one thing above all else: the interests of capital.
His only defense is “it was a victimless crime (which it wasn’t) and you’re just being mean to me because you hate me” which isn’t really a defense at all.
That's a part that doesn't get emphasized enough. The world of financial transactions is so far removed from most people's lives that they think, "he fudged on the value of his properties to get a loan - so what?"
But it's *not* a victimless crime. The banks do not have an infinite supply of money to lend. Suppose you're a small business owner, and you go to the bank for a loan, and you value your business honestly and legally. But now you can't get a loan, because all the money is tied up in a loan to someone like Donald Trump, who got the loan by lying.
On top of that, in a very real sense, it's a theft from the bank. If Trump didn't lie about the value of his collateral, they'd lend him less money and at higher interest rates. Banks make their money by lending money, so he's ripping them off.
It's easy to think of "the banks" as nameless, faceless entities, and who cares if "the banks" are getting ripped off? But real, everyday people have money deposited at those banks. Stealing from those banks through fraudulent practices means the bank is going to have to pay lower interest and charge higher fees on YOUR money to remain profitable, because the fraudulent practices drain their resources.
Exactly. The number the judge arrived at wasnt random or pulled out of thin air - it was specifically calculated by how much he WOULD have owed and paid if he didn’t lie about numbers to multiple government agencies.
Which like you said effects companies, workers, other owners, bank and government numbers, etc. So the idea it’s a victimless crime is entirely incorrect. Those do exist - but this isn’t an example of one…
If the AT&T corporation had done this, everyone would be lining up with knives to watch AT&T sell off assets.
But because Trump has so successfully conflated himself and his corporation and plays the victim, people feel bad for him, or like he’s personally being prosecuted, and go easy on him.
A more relatable example is if you walk into a realtor's office and say "I have a dime, a quarter, and two bits of string. What house can I afford?" they'll immediately inform you you can't afford any of the houses they have listed. If you walk in and say "I have a million dollars cash in the bank and assets worth another 10 million", someone there will spend time to determine what you're looking for, go to show you the properties, etc. and, if you say you want to purchase one, they'll do inspections, get paperwork prepared, and so on. All of that costs them time and money that they hope to make back in commission. If you then show up to sign all the paperwork and go "Well, I don't actually have all that money. I just have a dime, quarter, and two bits of string. Are we still good?", they will, in fact, not be good.
So I believe I should not have to pay my speeding ticket because its a victimless crime. Or not wearing my seatbelt. Maybe caught driving under the influence is ok as long as I don't wreck, it's a victimless crime, untill it's not. I am not arguing with you just agreeing with you. I am kinda tired of there victimless crime plea. Is it against the law or not.
The people of NY are the victims. He paid a fuck load less taxes by lying about his values than he should have. End of story. The Trump company was found guilty in CRIMINAL COURT. Its unreal, anyone else would have been bankrupt and in prison.
At this point, I'm expecting them to overturn the decision and all go on a free, pleasant, all-inclusive vacation. The Supreme Court has already established that public bribery is perfectly acceptable for US judiciary. I have zero confidence in the US court system at this point. It really is all about money, isn't it? If you have money, and especially if you're willing to share it or get a friend to share it, the courts will not touch you.
We desperately need to clean house. It’s so bad. Basically anyone touched by the Federalist Society and Republican politics needs to be treated as if they were members of Tammany Hall at this point.
which the moron will think is the full payment. and that's exactly what he'll post on TS. "I paid the bond, and when I lost the appeal they asked for the original amount! this is unfair, unjust! You can't do that do an ex-president!" or some bullshit and his MAGA moron crowd will eat it up.
> The reduction is a down payment.
The bond isn't really a down payment. The bond is a bond. If Trump posts the $175M bond, the state gets $0 right now, and the entire $464M judgment remains unpaid. The only money that would change hands right now is the fee that Trump pays to the surety, which would probably be around $20M. The surety keeps that fee no matter what happens, and it does not count toward the $464M judgment.
This is the correct answer.
It's another delay, and that panel of judges handed it to him without explanation or legal justification.
There's no "good faith", no "down payment", just another opportunity for trump to slither away.
Ahhh. This is what I thought. I posted something about this yesterday as I saw something similar noted in a different news article, but all the replies were just explaining to me what a bond is…. I know what a bond is.
This is fantastic news!!! He still has to pay the full amount, just not right now!! Whoohoo!!
I feel that no one is focusing on this part of it, to the right, this is a win, to the left they see it as a loss.
But in reality, this is just a good faith payment to prevent his assets from getting seized.
He is still currently on the hook for the full amount.
Seeing “Good faith” in a post about Trump is hilarious. We all know that next week they’re just going to kick the can down the road again, and keep doing so until the election.
In reality it is a loss. Any normal person would have had to put up the entire amount. When one person gets to skate on the consequences the country/justice system as a whole loses credibility with population as a whole.
I’m only in the first year of studying law, but from my understanding pre and post judgement interest begins the second the suit is filed, but isn’t always awarded. I believe the theory behind it is to discourage people who want to drag out a case they’re going to lose, and encourage people to settle quickly. You’re essentially telling the defendant that if they want to make you go through with all this, then you have to pay for it.
Which is exactly what Donald did / does. By throwing so many wrenches in the cogs and prolonging the process, they leave the meter running.
Oh, and by the way, congrats on starting law school. I remember being in your shoes many years ago. That 1L year is like no other experience on earth. Hang in there.
Prejudgment interest tends to only get awarded in limited circumstances, so I don't know if it will come into play here. Post-judgment interest, on the other hand, will definitely apply. Trump had better hope he wins his appeal, because New York's statutory post-judgment interest rate is something like 9 percent, and on a sum of money that big, it will accrue a pretty penny over the year or so that the appeal is likely to take. Trump is betting everything on the election in November. This is a state court judgment, so he can't do anything to directly eliminate it, but if he's elected, he won't be worrying about reelection or any other consequences, either - he can use the leverage of the Presidency to get various "benefactors" to "help him out" with paying it off.
Getting settlements delayed and reduced and wearing out plaintiffs is an old strategy not only for Don but for corporations in general. The Exxon Valdez case was like that, as I recall.
Interest is still accruing and will accrue during the appeals process. Over 100k every day (1 million every 9 days) and the appellate division has it calendared for the September 2024 session, though it could go on for longer, so if he loses it would be 474 million or more. And just to note, since this is a state civil matter there is no ability to be pardoned.
Ultimately this is likely good for the AG as the money put up for the bond would be guaranteed as payment if/when he loses, even if he were to declare bankruptcy, and the AG would only have to go after assets for the remainder, rather than full amount. Of course we’d love to see him suffer more as on a moral level he deserves it, but the AG’s legal interest is in collecting the judgment amount since that is his punishment, not the seizure of his assets. Asset seizure would just be a means, and when it comes to real property it’s a pain in the ass means too.
The part that’s really bothersome is that there was a stay on the prohibition of being on the board of a company doing business in NY. Even with the “heightened monitoring” and compliance director of the initial judgment, it rubs me the wrong way. Especially since Engoron only barred Trump from doing business in NY while allowing the Trump Organization to continue.
This is just the bond ~~so he can appeal~~ so he can prevent the government from seizing assets while he appeals. The judgement so far is still the same amount with interest.
Although it would be pretty hilarious if he couldn't even pay this bond, which seems likely unless a foreign government steps in for some good ol quid pro quo
"Donald Trump is still facing accountability for his staggering fraud."
Yeah. Just like he faced accountability for his sexual assaults and rapes. And how he faced accountability for his money laundering. And how he faced accountability for his insurrection. And ever other dodgy shit he has done over his entire fucking life.
The game of "rich person dodgeball" consists of a rich person indisputably getting hit with the ball, getting called out by the ref, then paying the ref to say that, while they agree the rich person *was* hit with the ball, they aren't out—because they paid money which is *basically* the same as being out—and can continue playing as if they were never hit.
He has been grifting, stealing, and not paying bills since at least the 80s.
Shit. Now someone will feel compelled to post "THE 80S???!!! Way before that!!"
Fuck.
It’s a still bullshit that Trump once again gets treated with kid gloves, but can he even cover the reduced bond? If not, does this change anything other than giving him a 10 day delay?
Given the bond is to stop the enforcement of the judgment during the appeal process, if he doesn't pony up the new cash in 9 days, does that mean NY can go after the full $464 million on April 3?
They should say the original bond was actually worth $1 billion and collect interest on that amount once the appeals process has been exhausted. As Donald would tell us, you accrue interest much more quickly if you tell people your assets are worth more.
I wish these articles would stop saying that Letitia James is seizing Trump’s assets…the state of NY is. James is just doing her job.
Also, fuck the American Justice system.
I wish they would stop saying things like "lash out" when there was nothing in her response that seemed to have any kind of negative emotion behind it. If she did when she gave it, the article doesn't say so.
Yeah stupid headline trying to personalize things into a fucking soap opera for clicks when this should be professional, depersonalized, and sober. Next week's headline: "You won't BELIEVE how Letitia cLaPs bAcK at Trump!".
This is why I never click the link it only reinforces the bs. Some usually posts the plain text. There's also never really much more to read than the first paragraph. Most news articles have a The Onion level of writing now where it just repeats in a different way but each paragraph is the same thought.
What's most egregious is that the appeal's court didn't even give a reason for it. It was a page and a half ruling where they said "Hey, we're just gonna lower this. Why? Because we said so."
Only more evidence that you face a different legal system when you're white, rich, and well connected. And Trump has the gall to complain about how "unfairly" he's being treated
This is what I find peculiar. [Link to the order for the curious.](https://eddsa.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/public/2024_01134_PEOPLE_OF_THE_STATE_OF_v_PEOPLE_OF_THE_STATE_OF_ORDER_21.pdf)
I don’t understand the basis for this in light of expectations. I’ve been looking for insights from experts and insiders, but I haven’t seen any really opine on this yet. There’s no way the court can address it now, in the wake of public reaction, without appearing defensive, but I wish these judges (Dianne T. Renwick, Anil C. Singh,
Lizbeth González, Bahaati E. Pitt-Burke, Kelly O’Neill Levy) had offered some line of reasoning so that we could compare their handling of Trump to past decisions.
You can read their past decisions. They will supply a legal reason for things as small as someone suing over an icy sidewalk causing a fall. They wrote pages to reason out why a dismissal wasn't granted to someone trying to get out of paying their rent.
For them to supply no legal rationale for Trump's ruling is already *bullshit*
https://www.nycourts.gov/courts/AD1/calendar/appsmots/AppMotIndex.shtml
Exactly, and have no fear a million smarmy fucks will be here soon to justify this bullshit as not just supposedly normal, but actually a good thing. Somehow lowering a bond by over 50%, and extending the time to pay by 33% is how our system "is supposed to work". While others will contend thst secretly this is good because of some made up logic about making it harder to appeal right back to these same fucking judges. When in reality it is pure bullshit and our plutocrat overlords letting people know that there are two parties, the rich and everyone else.
> Somehow lowering a bond by over 50%, and extending the time to pay by 33%
...*after the defendant had already bragged on social media about having the full amount on-hand*
The bit that is really confusing me is that there appears to be a legal mechanism to allow people extra time to liquidise assets to pay large legal penalties in New York. This was apparently what trump originally tried to use. Why the appeal wasn't granted on that grounds is just baffling.
An article yesterday in The Atlantic gave the BS excuse that since most of what would be taken is real estate properties and since real estate values are down right now it simply wouldn't be good take them at the moment ( l stopped reading the article after that I was so disgusted by the bad faith)
> since real estate values are down right now it simply wouldn't be good take them at the moment
...good *for whom*, exactly?
None of this is good for Trump. He's losing money/assets because of the legal judgement against him.
And collecting on the judgement is arguably good for the NY AG's office - they're recouping the damages for New Yorkers.
No, this can't be it.
The judges had another reason.
I'm a lawyer. I can tell you why the court in my jurisdiction would have granted the same order, without reasons, but I don't practice in NY.
In my jurisdiction stays are routinely granted. If there is even a remote possibility of irreversible consequences to an appellant of allowing the trial order to be enforced prior to the appeal, they will get the stay.
You would need to show prejudice or potential for removing assets to get full security or to have the stay application dismissed.
Here there is no prejudice, AG can get a court ordered sale of buildings in NY at anytime after the appeal, and they can't be removed from the state. Even if trump fled the jurisdiction, they still have his real estate.
And because these orders have to be made quickly, you get rough and ready justice, the order is made without written reasons. The judges have the right to issue reasons later, but don't always do.
NY probably has many differences but this order does not shock me as a lawyer. People are saying average Joe wouldn't get this, but in my jurisdiction the court coddles the average joe so much it's somewhat embarrassing.
I was just in court yesterday with a self represented woman who filed an exagerrated lien against my clients property. Had a big company done this they would have been ordered to pay my legal fees, but the court felt badly for this small company and delayed the costs order to after the trial.
Thanks for this input. The difference between reactions to this news among laypeople (including myself!) versus attorneys leads me to think that the media may have set inappropriate expectations—I don’t recall anyone suggesting that the appellate court would probably reduce the cost of his bond based on that being a matter of course.
Do you think this is the case? Were you frustrated by coverage that ignored the likelihood of this outcome?
It’s a tricky game to rely on anecdotal accounts, especially given differences in jurisdictions, but it certainly *feels* like I’ve encountered many accounts of people who find themselves in difficult or impossible circumstances subsequent to unfavorable rulings but face drastically different outcomes. Apart from this bond reduction, do you get the impression that Trump has generally been treated with greater deference than other defendants?
I can tell you that all the media coverage of legal proceedings I have ever read is bad. I don't really read it anymore because it's just frustrating to see the media selectively quote from decisions or misunderstand the procedure.
In this case, I'm not sure why people expected that he would be unable to get a stay.
I will also add that the most able attorneys are often the least likely to go on a news panel, etc. The media gets professors, and laypeople think that means the person understands the profession. However, professors are academics, they consider theory and policy, and write articles on their subjects. They usually are not practicing professionals and may have never stepped into a court room.
So the talking heads on tv are usually either academics or practitioners more concerned about media or marketing than serving their busy practices.
>I'm not sure why people expected that he would be unable to get a stay.
First of all, because there's no good god damn reason for it. He has been repeatedly verbally assaulting the judge, the court, and the AG for months on social media. He has also bragged about how he *has the full amount of the original bond on-hand*.
And second of all, fine, grant a stay. Give him another ten days. Big whoop. But cutting the bond amount *in half*? Complete fucking bullshit, and nobody on Earth will convince me otherwise.
> It was a page and a half ruling
..in response to **what?**
I don't remember seeing what Trump's team filed to get the gift they were given yesterday.
Ideally their appeal and request for a reduced bond wouldn't just **say** "We can't afford that!"
It would be accompanied by **proof** that they can't pay it.
Non-fraudulent financial statements showing full net worth and all assets (without inflated values).
Letters/affidavits from creditors, banks, surety companies, rich friends, all saying "No we won't let Donald borrow $450 million".
*None of those things were produced*.
Just a "Trust me bro" letter.
I've typed texts longer than their ruling. If I tried to turn that in for a university assignment, I would fail or get an awful grade if I didn't fail.
Maybe as simple as this: there's a non-zero chance Trump will become president again. He has promised retribution. If the appeals judge had denied the reduction/delay they would have been on Trump's "list". Now they're not on the "list". Their job is safe come January whichever way the election goes.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/05/us/politics/trump-retribution-presidency.html
The worse thing is: likely not. If they had been bribed that would be understandable. But no, this decision is just proof the wealthy are held to a much different standard than the rest of us. No extortion, bribery or blackmail necessary. Just being born with a silver spoon in one's mouth.
It isn't a justice system, it's a legal system. One set up to protect the wealthy.
The lowered the bond, gave him more time to pay, and restored his ability to do business in New York. They walked back so much of the original judges ruling.
Every American’s take away from this bond reduction should be:
- Yes, there are two separate justice systems. You would not get the same ruling.
- Trump thinks he is above the law that governs you. Despite this blatant coddling, he still thinks this is more than he should have to do after defrauding New York.
- No, there are not enough people in the judicial system working for the United States citizens.
- if you want to accountability for Trump, it is up to you to get to the polls.
All signs point to Trump KNOWING he is above the law that governs you and it is clear that is true…. Trump is shit but he appears over and over to be untouchable.
He has a bunch of seditious rubes on his side because they are so angry at a system that fucked over and forgotten them that they can't see its great orange avatar smirking in their faces.
I mean conservatives aren't the ones who coined the term flyover country. Personally, while I didn't see Trump coming, I did foresee exactly the split we're seeing today while I was still in college 15 years ago. Being from a rural area and joining the Marines right out of highschool I had a very different view than most when I finally got to college and while I've personally become a progressive I still fully understand the anger of those seditious rubes. They're angry that they don't have control over their lives and that there's no allowed outlet for that anger. You can't fight anyone without going to jail. All of the masculinity bullshit they were taught their whole lives is being shit on by Hollywood and the left. Granted this is just a rightful loss of privilege, but that doesn't change the knock on effects of cultural change just because you and I know it needed to happen.
Basically what the fuck did everyone expect to happen? 🤦♂️
It's not radical to fight fire with fire. It's your heritage as a member of the Union to hate the confederates/Nazis that have clearly captured our government.
Don't just vote. Vote for Biden. We say vote because it's really up to the individual. Seems rude to say vote Biden but fuck it. Vote Biden. He's done more to help us than hurt us. He's not going to bring peace to the middle east. No president ever has and it won't happen in the next few months.
And, it won't happen while Netanyahu is in power regardless of who is the President. A protest vote against Biden is a guarantee that Trump will send a lot more arms and money with zero conditions right to Netanyahu's thirst for the total annihilation of the Palestinian people. Vote Biden for stability and sanity and look at the down-ballot candidates (federal, state, local, judges, school boards, etc.) for the changes you want to see if your every day life.
I can’t get some of my more “activist” type friends to understand this. No, Biden hasn’t been ideal on the situation in Gaza. But I don’t know what they hope to achieve with a protest vote?
Hand the presidency to an open bb supporter who will give him the green light from the US to do whatever they want?
Oh and throw away all kinds of rights and guarantee our kids never have them either because down ballot matters more now than ever and we could certainly be looking at new SCOTUS appointments.
It's beyond that now, the geriatric class (I like to call them the Plumbum Society) cannot be trusted with our government anymore. Younger people have to get involved by running for office and building their own political infrastructure.
Yes, start with your local government and school boards. The opposition has groups going into local churches, at least they do in the South, and recruiting them to run for local governments and school boards. That's why we see so many outrageous book banning initiatives. If you can't run, then actively work to get out the vote. Write letters and postcards to voters. Write to your congress critters on important issues. MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD. Register people to vote. Check out Crooked Media's Vote Save America. Do something that doesn't include just complaining on your computer at home. Signed...a classy geriatric. (PS, Stevez\_86, I was protesting in the streets before you were even a twinkle in your daddy's eye)
They don't even need to go that far. They just need to vote.
If young people voted at the same rates as older people, the country would change drastically and quickly.
Have you ever tried to run for office? Even local office? You need to be financially able to do it and with all of the various money related crises facing millennials and gen-z I think this another instance of the system working as intended
Also, judge appointments are more important than ever. The elected party controls this, so if Trump wins again we’ll get corrupt MAGA judges across the board at all levels of the judiciary.
It isn’t just the polls we need to get to for accountability. It is every facet of our legal and political system we need to get to.
If we want accountability, we need to be in the positions to hold it.
Justice system is under peopled. Seems like a good place to start.
No one wants to get into politics, however change there can’t happen from outside. It’s gotta happen from within.
Corruption and the corrupt have worked their way into the positions that no one wants. Apathy in our system is a part of why we are in the position we are, and why the golden spoon children are fucking everything up.
Yes, we start at the polls. Then we work like they do, getting into the positions we need to to hold the corrupt accountable.
Also imagine what the rich/powerful get away with when no one is looking.
In this case the whole world was watching and still the rich/powerful were given benefits no one else would get without explanation.
I have a feeling he will never pay this bond.
When the 10 day extension is over, he won't have the money.
And shit. Since they reduced the bond by 68%... what is another 32%? Just make it zero.
My sister’s ex didn’t want his assets garnished for child support because he needed to buy more meth. This is like the same thing, right? Except in this case the justice system agrees that the AH gets to buy more meth instead of being subject to the legally binding judgment against him.
This is the same thing. Bonds are used every single day in the United States judicial system to ensure that the assets that are at issue are held safely while a dispute is resolved to finality. it has already been proven in a court of law once that the assets at issue were illegally taken by him.
Honestly, I think it is pretty clear he IS above the law that governs your average citizen.
I agree that he should not be but all evidence suggests that this not true.
I don’t disagree with you. My points in the third and fourth bullets stand: we don’t have enough people in government interested in holding him accountable so it has to fall to us.
I get what your saying but how can we fix things when we have judges with lifetime appointments. I will be long dead before any change even happens and I am not even 40. It will take almost a century to fix after all the ratfucking done to our country over the last 70 years.
We fight today and hope our kids have a better shot at tomorrow.
Hindsight being 20/20, I spent so much time being apathetic and miserable watching all the ladders get pulled up in front of me, it never occurred to me to build my own.
Now that my son is nearing his 18th, I'm mad I let so much time pass before figuring out how to have a voice. I don't want to leave him this world at all.
It is really galling that they are saying the only solution to Trump is in the coming election. This is exactly the guy who denies election results, does everything to overturn, discard and replace results he doesn't like. He and Republicans are doing everything they can and can't to predetermine elections, especially the upcoming one. And to threaten what they want to happen if they don't get their wins.
Of course it gives every incentive to work for Trump and Republican losses. However even after that they'll just switch over to "he's lost the election, now let's forget it all as past and move on".
So if my understanding is correct he can appeal after paying the lesser amount, but if the appeal fails to overturn the judgement he’ll still be on the hook for the original amount?
It’s not dependent on NY, it’s dependent on the appeal court’s schedule. NY can ask for an expedited appeal, but it’s up to the Court to grant it. Then if he loses, he’ll appeal to the New York Supreme Court (note, I have no idea what NY calls their State Supreme Court, but I actually don’t think it’s called the Supreme Court) if he loses, then the U.S. Supreme Court. Note, the supreme courts don’t have to take the case, but they still have to formally deny to take them. Could take some time.
I'm mad about the whole thing, but it's just insulting to the people not to have an explanation. This court appears to be as corrupt as judge Cannon and SCOTUS
Yes, and it might be more than that. McConnell and every complicit republican (all of them really) used Trump’s presidency to shovel a whole pig farm’s waste product’s worth of them into the courts. We have a very real problem. Remember how conservatives always screamed about “liberal” judges practicing activism from the bench, and how with conservatives it’s always projection? Yeah. We have a court system that is absolutely filthy with unqualified incompetent authoritarian conservatives who will not just practice activism, they’ll try to rule peoples’ lives from the bench.
And don't forget that the GOP does judge shopping where they file cases in the location where they are guaranteed to have their judge to hear the case.
https://apnews.com/article/texas-judge-matthew-kacsmaryk-abortion-pill-fda-75964b777ef09593a1ad948c6cfc0237
I guess this is a good time to remind people: in 2000, 18 NYC Property Tax Assessors were sentenced for taking bribes. Not a single rich person was ever arrested or even identified for actually paying the bribes.
Edit: source
https://www.propublica.org/article/trumps-company-paid-bribes-to-reduce-property-taxes-assessors-say
John Stewart has a really funny daily show post about this. Particularly the shark tank guy saying "y u coming down on him? Everybody does it!" Then then some shark tank clips of him saying people are wrong to over value themeselves
**James:** *makes an entirely neutral statement about the case*
**Newsweek:** LAETITIA JAMES FIRES TUNGSTEN ROD FROM SPACE DIRECTLY UP TRUMP'S ASSHOLE IN SCATHING NUCLEAR REBUKE
By Natalie Venegas - Weekend Reporter:
"After an appeals court ruled on Monday that Donald Trump could proceed with a much lower amount than the $454 million penalty against him in his civil fraud case, New York Attorney General Letitia James fired back at the former president.
"Donald Trump is still facing accountability for his staggering fraud. The court has already found that he engaged in years of fraud to falsely inflate his net worth and unjustly enrich himself, his family, and his organization. The $464 million judgment – plus interest – against Donald Trump and the other defendants still stands," James said in a statement."
Read more: [https://www.newsweek.com/letitia-james-fires-back-after-donald-trump-bond-reduction-new-york-civil-fraud-1883197](https://www.newsweek.com/letitia-james-fires-back-after-donald-trump-bond-reduction-new-york-civil-fraud-1883197)
If I was fined 100K it would hurt me as much as a 500 million judgement hurts him. The difference is - I would be in prison if I couldn't pay - they wouldn't reduce it to a payable amount for me. This two tiered justice system in this country is absolute BULLSHIT. He needs to be locked up for the rest of his miserable life. Do people not understand that if he wins the presidency again our country becomes Russia with never ending Trumps running things forever? VOTE like your life depends on it, because it does.
Banana Republic.
US citizens were so smug about their "free and greatest country" in the world, they forgot to work to improve it. Now they are at the stage other countries were 60 years ago as banana Republic
Yeah, this will totally restore Americans’ faith in the justice system.
> Donald Trump is still facing accountability for his staggering fraud. The court has already found that he engaged in years of fraud to falsely inflate his net worth and unjustly enrich himself, his family, and his organization. The $464 million judgment – plus interest – against Donald Trump and the other defendants still stands," James said in a statement.
I can’t understand what Trump did to deserve such an accommodation from the appeals court. He’s been nothing but belligerent in public comments regarding the trial. Wondering if his followers’ threats to the court influenced their “go easy” decision?
Cite*
This 175m is just what he had to downpay if he chooses to appeal the existing 450m ruling.
So he still owes all of it, but if he wants to appeal, he has to cough up 175m of the full amount.
It can set a precedent, but it probably wont.
There will be no need. There will not be a justice department.
Oh it might be called the justice department. But justice will be redefined to mean oppression.
Every time Trump is able to postpone consequences, he increases the chances of avoiding them entirely, or diminishing them in some way. In some cases he may be able to delay long enough so that the people trying to enforce the consequences get other jobs and the new ones may not have the same priorities.
It exposes the system for what it is more than it exposes him for anything. Every day that he's successful in postponement or outright avoidance our democratic system is eroded a little bit further. It's up to us to stop it, I guess, because the justice system seems utterly incapable of doing it.
Do you need an opinion to have a precedent? Seems like it should make the scope of things wider, not narrower.
If theyd said 'because hes campaigning and we dont want to interfere with that" then judges could claim the precedent doesnt apply for anyone not campaigning.
if they'd alluded to his real estate holdings and said 'we can see he has the assets to cover, but think its too great a burden to make him sell assets in order to appeal' it could be argued their ruling only applied to those with large real estate (or possibly other investment) holdings
But all they said was its 60% too high. Seems like any lawyer can claim they believe a bond is too high now and ask for a 60% reduction. Or maybe do some maths on what % of trumps value the 175M was and extrapolate how much they think their client may be forced to place as bond ('in Tfg vs NYAG, the appeals court ruled that 25% of a plaintif's net worth was too high a bond, and reduced it to 12%. We believe the courts have made a similar overstep and ask the courts to reduce to 60k, as that is 12% of the plaintifs net worth') (maybe they just argue that 175M is a cap now, and say a 200M is excessive)
Unless theres something saying only decisions with reasoning included can set precedence and judges essentially have a choice whether or not to bind other judges to theirs?
I'm tired of these headlines that make this seem like some personal feud. He broke the law, he lied and cheated, he certainly cost the area tax money, he was found liable.
The point of these fines is to deter someone from committing the crime again. He has clearly learned nothing and has zero remorse and they are helping him anyway.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but paying the reduced bond is just to allow him to appeal.
If he loses the appeal, he loses that bond and then has to pay the initial $464m amount (minus the $175m bond).
I mean it's still stupid it was reduced, but the $464m was calculated based on the money he gained through fraud. I don't believe that initial $464m fine has technically been reduced (yet).
The Trump family has owned New York Judges and Prosecutors since the 60s. Long before he was Mayor, Rudy Giuliani was a Mob and Trump fixer moonlighting as a prosecutor.
If I understand this right (please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not American nor do I fully understand the process) then he had to pay $464mil to appeal the decision of the court that he's a fraud and was overvaluing his property in New York.
That $464mil has been reduced to $175mil if he wants to appeal, but even if he does appeal, if he loses then he will have to pay the rest which is $289mil?
So although the appeal cost has gone down, he'll probably still be found guilty or whatever, and therefore have to pay the rest of the money and start losing his property?
Let's help.. Check your registration, get an ID , learn where your poling station is, learn who is running in down ballot races. Pay attention to primaries not just for the president but for all races, local, state and federal. From the school board to the White House every election matters. The more support we give the democrats from all levels of government the more they can get good things done.
Last year democrat victories in Virginia and Pennsylvania and others across the nation have increased the chances of democrats winning this year. This year's elections are important but so will next year's elections.
[https://ballotpedia.org/Elections\_calendar](https://ballotpedia.org/Elections_calendar)
Once again... the wealthy get breaks that the poor and middle class would never get.
Remember that next time someone tells you that raising taxes on the wealthy "wouldn't be fair". They already get an extreme number of breaks.
I understand the intent but...the system clearly needs less appeal systems. Especially ones that only work for people who can afford them. Trump shouldn't have been given 1/10th of the second tries he already has been in this ONE case alone. A justice system that can be impacted by money is not a justice system.
Also, obviously, a whole lot of judges need to be removed.
I honestly think that people are just scared. Scared of his base, scared of the ramifications of not helping Trump if he wins the election this fall. There WILL be a bloodbath, IMO. Trump will ratfuck every single person who didn't help him and he'll ratfuck some of those who did. It's fear.
Let's play Devil's Advocate. This ruling to reduce the bond was to allow the appeals process to proceed before what is likely irreversible damage of asset seizure that will likely end with the property being sold by the state.
He is unlikely to succeed in the markets with the appeal and it will allow the interests to further build up, and him to have more legal fees build up.
Also it is looking like he may not be able to to cover the slightly over 100million bond as well. Every chance is being given which cuts off his means for appeal and to reduce his ability for a successful adversarial persecution.
He deserves to have the book bashed.into his skull but because of his political standing and following steps absolutely need to be made. There is a multi-tiered justice system. Now don't get me wrong I believe individuals that are in positions of power (politics, police, lawyers and such) should be held to higher standards and should have increased punishments and lower bars to reach those punishments when abuse of their power is in question, but all these steps need to also be in place to help limit and prevent individuals from prosecuting their political rivals.
Trump is guilty and he isn't even arguing he isn't just that it was ok for him to do it. This is outside the normal scope by such a large margin
People shouldn't really be angry over this IMO it's pretty much a bog-standard ruling by Appellate here on Bond. It doesn't actually benefit anyone (including the state) to have to go through asset seizure/forfeiture, and these types of adjustments are extremely common for everyone of every economic class.
Trump's lawyers claiming victory over having to put up $175m in Bond - still an enormous amount, is kind of funny however.
Also grounds for appeal seem shaky, and nothing the AG or the Judge did has been illogical from a legal perspective. It will be hard for Trump to get around paying the full amount eventually from what I can see at least.
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"Donald Trump is still facing accountability for his staggering fraud. The court has already found that he engaged in years of fraud to falsely inflate his net worth and unjustly enrich himself, his family, and his organization. The $464 million judgment – plus interest – against Donald Trump and the other defendants still stands," James said in a statement.
So... correct me if I'm wrong here. Is he still paying interest on the full amount or the reduced? I still expect he won't pay the reduced amount either and another excuse will be made to reduce it further
[удалено]
Exactly they are getting him to pony up the money in part which will just make recovering the full amount easier when the appeal fails and they get to additionally appear as if they are being lenient and reasonable.
*If* the appeal fails. I hope the court doesn’t overturn the decision, but after this blatant slap in the face I’m not so sure anymore.
My fear as well. I want to live in a country where a correct ruling doesn't get overturned just because the person it was made against is real popular with certain billionaires, but it increasingly looks like maybe I don't live in such a country. I think those at the top are forgetting that the law is an agreement. It is a promise to the people, saying "you don't need to riot or take matters into your own hands, because the guilty will be held responsible by our legal system, regardless of position." If the state is reneging on the latter part of that agreement, the people will be justified in reneging on the former.
The law needs to apply to everyone equally or it isn’t law. It privilege or persecution Edit: To all of the people responding by telling me ‘that’s not how it works’. Yeah, okay, I get that. But that is how it _should be_.That is the goal we all should be working towards. If we are not there _yet_ how do we get there?
Frank Wilhoit [blog post](https://crookedtimber.org/2018/03/21/liberals-against-progressives/#comment-729288) The corollary of the law cannot protect anyone unless it binds everyone; and it cannot bind anyone unless it protects everyone is also true.
The law can very easily binds tons of people without protecting everyone; like it does now.
Only if they are people with money. If you don’t have money, then I guess it depends what your skin color is. That determines which people have to pay the consequences of their actions or not.
This is now a kleptocracy filled with oligarchs.
Now?
Well since 1980 at least. Darn you Reagan!
Try 1780. Who do you think the founding fathers were? They were a bunch of rich slave owning dudes that didn't want to pay taxes and were perfectly happy to kill a bunch of poor people to achieve that. This is the founding principle of this country.
Or because you complain loudly that life is so unfair, boohoo! If this was your regular Joe being fined in a regular court in which the fine completely strapped them and they couldn’t pay rent or buy food, the court would hand them a list of resources (maybe) and tell them to figure it out. Trump gets special treatment in our legal system because he’s rich and it’s bullshit!!
Very true, but good luck getting reasonable people to riot and Trump has a monopoly on the unreasonable extremists.
He has a monopoly on a minority. They're so loud it's often difficult to remember how few they are, but we have to remember that Trump's extremists are very much a minority of people. And yes, this ruling being overturned wouldn't likely be enough to get people rioting in the streets, I grant you. But riots are never caused by single incidents. They're caused by an accumulation of incidents over time, each a log on the pile, which is then set off by an inciting incident, often just the wrong event or revelation at just the wrong time, which sets the pile ablaze. Due to Trump's high visibility and his brazen disregard for the law, this ruling being overturned would make for an awfully big log. If Trump were to then, say, seize power by force, I think the public response would not be a quiet one. I think the public would not be content to sit quietly and "see how this all plays out." Maybe I'm the fool for that, though.
A pretty big chunk of the people willing to take matters into their own hands are in the cult though.
You have never lived in such a country and never will. American institutions are designed to protect one thing above all else: the interests of capital.
Then it is in the interests of the people to regularly remind the ruling class of our capacity to harm the interests of capital.
His only defense is “it was a victimless crime (which it wasn’t) and you’re just being mean to me because you hate me” which isn’t really a defense at all.
That's a part that doesn't get emphasized enough. The world of financial transactions is so far removed from most people's lives that they think, "he fudged on the value of his properties to get a loan - so what?" But it's *not* a victimless crime. The banks do not have an infinite supply of money to lend. Suppose you're a small business owner, and you go to the bank for a loan, and you value your business honestly and legally. But now you can't get a loan, because all the money is tied up in a loan to someone like Donald Trump, who got the loan by lying. On top of that, in a very real sense, it's a theft from the bank. If Trump didn't lie about the value of his collateral, they'd lend him less money and at higher interest rates. Banks make their money by lending money, so he's ripping them off. It's easy to think of "the banks" as nameless, faceless entities, and who cares if "the banks" are getting ripped off? But real, everyday people have money deposited at those banks. Stealing from those banks through fraudulent practices means the bank is going to have to pay lower interest and charge higher fees on YOUR money to remain profitable, because the fraudulent practices drain their resources.
Exactly. The number the judge arrived at wasnt random or pulled out of thin air - it was specifically calculated by how much he WOULD have owed and paid if he didn’t lie about numbers to multiple government agencies. Which like you said effects companies, workers, other owners, bank and government numbers, etc. So the idea it’s a victimless crime is entirely incorrect. Those do exist - but this isn’t an example of one…
If the AT&T corporation had done this, everyone would be lining up with knives to watch AT&T sell off assets. But because Trump has so successfully conflated himself and his corporation and plays the victim, people feel bad for him, or like he’s personally being prosecuted, and go easy on him.
Don’t forget about deflating his assets when it came for tax time. Tax payers are being defrauded too because he is not paying his fair share
A more relatable example is if you walk into a realtor's office and say "I have a dime, a quarter, and two bits of string. What house can I afford?" they'll immediately inform you you can't afford any of the houses they have listed. If you walk in and say "I have a million dollars cash in the bank and assets worth another 10 million", someone there will spend time to determine what you're looking for, go to show you the properties, etc. and, if you say you want to purchase one, they'll do inspections, get paperwork prepared, and so on. All of that costs them time and money that they hope to make back in commission. If you then show up to sign all the paperwork and go "Well, I don't actually have all that money. I just have a dime, quarter, and two bits of string. Are we still good?", they will, in fact, not be good.
So I believe I should not have to pay my speeding ticket because its a victimless crime. Or not wearing my seatbelt. Maybe caught driving under the influence is ok as long as I don't wreck, it's a victimless crime, untill it's not. I am not arguing with you just agreeing with you. I am kinda tired of there victimless crime plea. Is it against the law or not.
The people of NY are the victims. He paid a fuck load less taxes by lying about his values than he should have. End of story. The Trump company was found guilty in CRIMINAL COURT. Its unreal, anyone else would have been bankrupt and in prison.
At this point, I'm expecting them to overturn the decision and all go on a free, pleasant, all-inclusive vacation. The Supreme Court has already established that public bribery is perfectly acceptable for US judiciary. I have zero confidence in the US court system at this point. It really is all about money, isn't it? If you have money, and especially if you're willing to share it or get a friend to share it, the courts will not touch you.
We desperately need to clean house. It’s so bad. Basically anyone touched by the Federalist Society and Republican politics needs to be treated as if they were members of Tammany Hall at this point.
which the moron will think is the full payment. and that's exactly what he'll post on TS. "I paid the bond, and when I lost the appeal they asked for the original amount! this is unfair, unjust! You can't do that do an ex-president!" or some bullshit and his MAGA moron crowd will eat it up.
> The reduction is a down payment. The bond isn't really a down payment. The bond is a bond. If Trump posts the $175M bond, the state gets $0 right now, and the entire $464M judgment remains unpaid. The only money that would change hands right now is the fee that Trump pays to the surety, which would probably be around $20M. The surety keeps that fee no matter what happens, and it does not count toward the $464M judgment.
This is the correct answer. It's another delay, and that panel of judges handed it to him without explanation or legal justification. There's no "good faith", no "down payment", just another opportunity for trump to slither away.
Ahhh. This is what I thought. I posted something about this yesterday as I saw something similar noted in a different news article, but all the replies were just explaining to me what a bond is…. I know what a bond is. This is fantastic news!!! He still has to pay the full amount, just not right now!! Whoohoo!!
I feel that no one is focusing on this part of it, to the right, this is a win, to the left they see it as a loss. But in reality, this is just a good faith payment to prevent his assets from getting seized. He is still currently on the hook for the full amount.
Seeing “Good faith” in a post about Trump is hilarious. We all know that next week they’re just going to kick the can down the road again, and keep doing so until the election.
In reality it is a loss. Any normal person would have had to put up the entire amount. When one person gets to skate on the consequences the country/justice system as a whole loses credibility with population as a whole.
I’m only in the first year of studying law, but from my understanding pre and post judgement interest begins the second the suit is filed, but isn’t always awarded. I believe the theory behind it is to discourage people who want to drag out a case they’re going to lose, and encourage people to settle quickly. You’re essentially telling the defendant that if they want to make you go through with all this, then you have to pay for it. Which is exactly what Donald did / does. By throwing so many wrenches in the cogs and prolonging the process, they leave the meter running.
Oh, and by the way, congrats on starting law school. I remember being in your shoes many years ago. That 1L year is like no other experience on earth. Hang in there.
Prejudgment interest tends to only get awarded in limited circumstances, so I don't know if it will come into play here. Post-judgment interest, on the other hand, will definitely apply. Trump had better hope he wins his appeal, because New York's statutory post-judgment interest rate is something like 9 percent, and on a sum of money that big, it will accrue a pretty penny over the year or so that the appeal is likely to take. Trump is betting everything on the election in November. This is a state court judgment, so he can't do anything to directly eliminate it, but if he's elected, he won't be worrying about reelection or any other consequences, either - he can use the leverage of the Presidency to get various "benefactors" to "help him out" with paying it off.
Getting settlements delayed and reduced and wearing out plaintiffs is an old strategy not only for Don but for corporations in general. The Exxon Valdez case was like that, as I recall.
Let's strengthen this part of our system so that corporations can't outlast individuals.
Yep, keep things going until the opposing party losses the will or resources to continue.
Interest is still accruing and will accrue during the appeals process. Over 100k every day (1 million every 9 days) and the appellate division has it calendared for the September 2024 session, though it could go on for longer, so if he loses it would be 474 million or more. And just to note, since this is a state civil matter there is no ability to be pardoned. Ultimately this is likely good for the AG as the money put up for the bond would be guaranteed as payment if/when he loses, even if he were to declare bankruptcy, and the AG would only have to go after assets for the remainder, rather than full amount. Of course we’d love to see him suffer more as on a moral level he deserves it, but the AG’s legal interest is in collecting the judgment amount since that is his punishment, not the seizure of his assets. Asset seizure would just be a means, and when it comes to real property it’s a pain in the ass means too. The part that’s really bothersome is that there was a stay on the prohibition of being on the board of a company doing business in NY. Even with the “heightened monitoring” and compliance director of the initial judgment, it rubs me the wrong way. Especially since Engoron only barred Trump from doing business in NY while allowing the Trump Organization to continue.
This is just the bond ~~so he can appeal~~ so he can prevent the government from seizing assets while he appeals. The judgement so far is still the same amount with interest. Although it would be pretty hilarious if he couldn't even pay this bond, which seems likely unless a foreign government steps in for some good ol quid pro quo
Or a billionaire TikTok investor from Philly …
"Donald Trump is still facing accountability for his staggering fraud." Yeah. Just like he faced accountability for his sexual assaults and rapes. And how he faced accountability for his money laundering. And how he faced accountability for his insurrection. And ever other dodgy shit he has done over his entire fucking life.
It’s endless, this game of rich person dodge ball.
The game of "rich person dodgeball" consists of a rich person indisputably getting hit with the ball, getting called out by the ref, then paying the ref to say that, while they agree the rich person *was* hit with the ball, they aren't out—because they paid money which is *basically* the same as being out—and can continue playing as if they were never hit.
He has been grifting, stealing, and not paying bills since at least the 80s. Shit. Now someone will feel compelled to post "THE 80S???!!! Way before that!!" Fuck.
It’s a still bullshit that Trump once again gets treated with kid gloves, but can he even cover the reduced bond? If not, does this change anything other than giving him a 10 day delay?
Given the bond is to stop the enforcement of the judgment during the appeal process, if he doesn't pony up the new cash in 9 days, does that mean NY can go after the full $464 million on April 3?
Honestly, don't get your hopes up. Someone will give him that money.
That or the courts will lower it yet again and give him even more time to pay.
They should say the original bond was actually worth $1 billion and collect interest on that amount once the appeals process has been exhausted. As Donald would tell us, you accrue interest much more quickly if you tell people your assets are worth more.
This clarification would have been great sooner. How long do we have to wait before this judgement becomes effective?
Who knows? I haven't seen, but I imagine they will do everything possible to delay.
I wish these articles would stop saying that Letitia James is seizing Trump’s assets…the state of NY is. James is just doing her job. Also, fuck the American Justice system.
I wish they would stop saying things like "lash out" when there was nothing in her response that seemed to have any kind of negative emotion behind it. If she did when she gave it, the article doesn't say so.
Yeah stupid headline trying to personalize things into a fucking soap opera for clicks when this should be professional, depersonalized, and sober. Next week's headline: "You won't BELIEVE how Letitia cLaPs bAcK at Trump!".
This is why I never click the link it only reinforces the bs. Some usually posts the plain text. There's also never really much more to read than the first paragraph. Most news articles have a The Onion level of writing now where it just repeats in a different way but each paragraph is the same thought.
What's most egregious is that the appeal's court didn't even give a reason for it. It was a page and a half ruling where they said "Hey, we're just gonna lower this. Why? Because we said so." Only more evidence that you face a different legal system when you're white, rich, and well connected. And Trump has the gall to complain about how "unfairly" he's being treated
Of course he‘s being treated unfairly - he‘s just complaining that he is not treated unfairly ENOUGH!
What‘s the point in being privileged, when everybody is treated equally before the law??
This is what I find peculiar. [Link to the order for the curious.](https://eddsa.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/public/2024_01134_PEOPLE_OF_THE_STATE_OF_v_PEOPLE_OF_THE_STATE_OF_ORDER_21.pdf) I don’t understand the basis for this in light of expectations. I’ve been looking for insights from experts and insiders, but I haven’t seen any really opine on this yet. There’s no way the court can address it now, in the wake of public reaction, without appearing defensive, but I wish these judges (Dianne T. Renwick, Anil C. Singh, Lizbeth González, Bahaati E. Pitt-Burke, Kelly O’Neill Levy) had offered some line of reasoning so that we could compare their handling of Trump to past decisions.
You can read their past decisions. They will supply a legal reason for things as small as someone suing over an icy sidewalk causing a fall. They wrote pages to reason out why a dismissal wasn't granted to someone trying to get out of paying their rent. For them to supply no legal rationale for Trump's ruling is already *bullshit* https://www.nycourts.gov/courts/AD1/calendar/appsmots/AppMotIndex.shtml
Exactly, and have no fear a million smarmy fucks will be here soon to justify this bullshit as not just supposedly normal, but actually a good thing. Somehow lowering a bond by over 50%, and extending the time to pay by 33% is how our system "is supposed to work". While others will contend thst secretly this is good because of some made up logic about making it harder to appeal right back to these same fucking judges. When in reality it is pure bullshit and our plutocrat overlords letting people know that there are two parties, the rich and everyone else.
> Somehow lowering a bond by over 50%, and extending the time to pay by 33% ...*after the defendant had already bragged on social media about having the full amount on-hand*
Not just that, but said in court that he had the money. Just more evidence that the US is an outright plutocracy.
Judges: reasons are TL;DW (too long; didn’t write)
The bit that is really confusing me is that there appears to be a legal mechanism to allow people extra time to liquidise assets to pay large legal penalties in New York. This was apparently what trump originally tried to use. Why the appeal wasn't granted on that grounds is just baffling.
For starters, he didn't make any such attempts. He tried to borrow the money instead and nobody would lend it to him.
An article yesterday in The Atlantic gave the BS excuse that since most of what would be taken is real estate properties and since real estate values are down right now it simply wouldn't be good take them at the moment ( l stopped reading the article after that I was so disgusted by the bad faith)
> since real estate values are down right now it simply wouldn't be good take them at the moment ...good *for whom*, exactly? None of this is good for Trump. He's losing money/assets because of the legal judgement against him. And collecting on the judgement is arguably good for the NY AG's office - they're recouping the damages for New Yorkers. No, this can't be it. The judges had another reason.
Wouldn't low real estate values just mean they would seize enough to satisfy the punishment?
Exactly why I thought it was a bad faith argument
I'm a lawyer. I can tell you why the court in my jurisdiction would have granted the same order, without reasons, but I don't practice in NY. In my jurisdiction stays are routinely granted. If there is even a remote possibility of irreversible consequences to an appellant of allowing the trial order to be enforced prior to the appeal, they will get the stay. You would need to show prejudice or potential for removing assets to get full security or to have the stay application dismissed. Here there is no prejudice, AG can get a court ordered sale of buildings in NY at anytime after the appeal, and they can't be removed from the state. Even if trump fled the jurisdiction, they still have his real estate. And because these orders have to be made quickly, you get rough and ready justice, the order is made without written reasons. The judges have the right to issue reasons later, but don't always do. NY probably has many differences but this order does not shock me as a lawyer. People are saying average Joe wouldn't get this, but in my jurisdiction the court coddles the average joe so much it's somewhat embarrassing. I was just in court yesterday with a self represented woman who filed an exagerrated lien against my clients property. Had a big company done this they would have been ordered to pay my legal fees, but the court felt badly for this small company and delayed the costs order to after the trial.
Thanks for this input. The difference between reactions to this news among laypeople (including myself!) versus attorneys leads me to think that the media may have set inappropriate expectations—I don’t recall anyone suggesting that the appellate court would probably reduce the cost of his bond based on that being a matter of course. Do you think this is the case? Were you frustrated by coverage that ignored the likelihood of this outcome? It’s a tricky game to rely on anecdotal accounts, especially given differences in jurisdictions, but it certainly *feels* like I’ve encountered many accounts of people who find themselves in difficult or impossible circumstances subsequent to unfavorable rulings but face drastically different outcomes. Apart from this bond reduction, do you get the impression that Trump has generally been treated with greater deference than other defendants?
I can tell you that all the media coverage of legal proceedings I have ever read is bad. I don't really read it anymore because it's just frustrating to see the media selectively quote from decisions or misunderstand the procedure. In this case, I'm not sure why people expected that he would be unable to get a stay. I will also add that the most able attorneys are often the least likely to go on a news panel, etc. The media gets professors, and laypeople think that means the person understands the profession. However, professors are academics, they consider theory and policy, and write articles on their subjects. They usually are not practicing professionals and may have never stepped into a court room. So the talking heads on tv are usually either academics or practitioners more concerned about media or marketing than serving their busy practices.
>I'm not sure why people expected that he would be unable to get a stay. First of all, because there's no good god damn reason for it. He has been repeatedly verbally assaulting the judge, the court, and the AG for months on social media. He has also bragged about how he *has the full amount of the original bond on-hand*. And second of all, fine, grant a stay. Give him another ten days. Big whoop. But cutting the bond amount *in half*? Complete fucking bullshit, and nobody on Earth will convince me otherwise.
> It was a page and a half ruling ..in response to **what?** I don't remember seeing what Trump's team filed to get the gift they were given yesterday. Ideally their appeal and request for a reduced bond wouldn't just **say** "We can't afford that!" It would be accompanied by **proof** that they can't pay it. Non-fraudulent financial statements showing full net worth and all assets (without inflated values). Letters/affidavits from creditors, banks, surety companies, rich friends, all saying "No we won't let Donald borrow $450 million". *None of those things were produced*. Just a "Trust me bro" letter.
I've typed texts longer than their ruling. If I tried to turn that in for a university assignment, I would fail or get an awful grade if I didn't fail.
Maybe as simple as this: there's a non-zero chance Trump will become president again. He has promised retribution. If the appeals judge had denied the reduction/delay they would have been on Trump's "list". Now they're not on the "list". Their job is safe come January whichever way the election goes. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/05/us/politics/trump-retribution-presidency.html
Last names like Singh and Gonzalez, and first names like Bahaati are on the list no matter what they do or say.
Because the real reason is they had generous gift from a unnamed benefactor show up in their bank account.
The worse thing is: likely not. If they had been bribed that would be understandable. But no, this decision is just proof the wealthy are held to a much different standard than the rest of us. No extortion, bribery or blackmail necessary. Just being born with a silver spoon in one's mouth. It isn't a justice system, it's a legal system. One set up to protect the wealthy.
The lowered the bond, gave him more time to pay, and restored his ability to do business in New York. They walked back so much of the original judges ruling.
Every American’s take away from this bond reduction should be: - Yes, there are two separate justice systems. You would not get the same ruling. - Trump thinks he is above the law that governs you. Despite this blatant coddling, he still thinks this is more than he should have to do after defrauding New York. - No, there are not enough people in the judicial system working for the United States citizens. - if you want to accountability for Trump, it is up to you to get to the polls.
Vote, and bring everybody you know to vote.
All signs point to Trump KNOWING he is above the law that governs you and it is clear that is true…. Trump is shit but he appears over and over to be untouchable.
He has people on the inside and he knows it. They aren't even trying to hide the corruption.
He has a bunch of seditious rubes on his side because they are so angry at a system that fucked over and forgotten them that they can't see its great orange avatar smirking in their faces.
I mean conservatives aren't the ones who coined the term flyover country. Personally, while I didn't see Trump coming, I did foresee exactly the split we're seeing today while I was still in college 15 years ago. Being from a rural area and joining the Marines right out of highschool I had a very different view than most when I finally got to college and while I've personally become a progressive I still fully understand the anger of those seditious rubes. They're angry that they don't have control over their lives and that there's no allowed outlet for that anger. You can't fight anyone without going to jail. All of the masculinity bullshit they were taught their whole lives is being shit on by Hollywood and the left. Granted this is just a rightful loss of privilege, but that doesn't change the knock on effects of cultural change just because you and I know it needed to happen. Basically what the fuck did everyone expect to happen? 🤦♂️
The death threats from the MAGAs seem to be working.
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It's not radical to fight fire with fire. It's your heritage as a member of the Union to hate the confederates/Nazis that have clearly captured our government.
Nazis are nazis even if they wrap themselves in a flag and carry a cross.
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I mean, he has 78 years of experience telling him exactly that.
Don't just vote. Vote for Biden. We say vote because it's really up to the individual. Seems rude to say vote Biden but fuck it. Vote Biden. He's done more to help us than hurt us. He's not going to bring peace to the middle east. No president ever has and it won't happen in the next few months.
And, it won't happen while Netanyahu is in power regardless of who is the President. A protest vote against Biden is a guarantee that Trump will send a lot more arms and money with zero conditions right to Netanyahu's thirst for the total annihilation of the Palestinian people. Vote Biden for stability and sanity and look at the down-ballot candidates (federal, state, local, judges, school boards, etc.) for the changes you want to see if your every day life.
I can’t get some of my more “activist” type friends to understand this. No, Biden hasn’t been ideal on the situation in Gaza. But I don’t know what they hope to achieve with a protest vote? Hand the presidency to an open bb supporter who will give him the green light from the US to do whatever they want? Oh and throw away all kinds of rights and guarantee our kids never have them either because down ballot matters more now than ever and we could certainly be looking at new SCOTUS appointments.
It's beyond that now, the geriatric class (I like to call them the Plumbum Society) cannot be trusted with our government anymore. Younger people have to get involved by running for office and building their own political infrastructure.
Yes, start with your local government and school boards. The opposition has groups going into local churches, at least they do in the South, and recruiting them to run for local governments and school boards. That's why we see so many outrageous book banning initiatives. If you can't run, then actively work to get out the vote. Write letters and postcards to voters. Write to your congress critters on important issues. MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD. Register people to vote. Check out Crooked Media's Vote Save America. Do something that doesn't include just complaining on your computer at home. Signed...a classy geriatric. (PS, Stevez\_86, I was protesting in the streets before you were even a twinkle in your daddy's eye)
I agree, and I'm 65.
I agree and I’m much older.
They don't even need to go that far. They just need to vote. If young people voted at the same rates as older people, the country would change drastically and quickly.
Have you ever tried to run for office? Even local office? You need to be financially able to do it and with all of the various money related crises facing millennials and gen-z I think this another instance of the system working as intended
And if you already plan to vote, donate or volunteer. And if you're already doing that, run for something. Our democracy needs people at every level.
Vote early, vote often.
Per election cycle >_>
Also, judge appointments are more important than ever. The elected party controls this, so if Trump wins again we’ll get corrupt MAGA judges across the board at all levels of the judiciary.
Shit, even if Biden/Harris win, if the Democrats don't hold the Senate, I expect pretty much all judicial appointments to stop.
It isn’t just the polls we need to get to for accountability. It is every facet of our legal and political system we need to get to. If we want accountability, we need to be in the positions to hold it. Justice system is under peopled. Seems like a good place to start. No one wants to get into politics, however change there can’t happen from outside. It’s gotta happen from within. Corruption and the corrupt have worked their way into the positions that no one wants. Apathy in our system is a part of why we are in the position we are, and why the golden spoon children are fucking everything up. Yes, we start at the polls. Then we work like they do, getting into the positions we need to to hold the corrupt accountable.
America doesn't have a justice system, but a legal system.
Also imagine what the rich/powerful get away with when no one is looking. In this case the whole world was watching and still the rich/powerful were given benefits no one else would get without explanation.
> Trump thinks he is above the law that governs you so far, he is
I have a feeling he will never pay this bond. When the 10 day extension is over, he won't have the money. And shit. Since they reduced the bond by 68%... what is another 32%? Just make it zero.
This same bastard railed against student loan forgiveness.
Trump: not gonna pay it: "Justice" System: oh well lol at least we tried!
They should probably just pay him money for the inconvenience. /s
My sister’s ex didn’t want his assets garnished for child support because he needed to buy more meth. This is like the same thing, right? Except in this case the justice system agrees that the AH gets to buy more meth instead of being subject to the legally binding judgment against him.
This is the same thing. Bonds are used every single day in the United States judicial system to ensure that the assets that are at issue are held safely while a dispute is resolved to finality. it has already been proven in a court of law once that the assets at issue were illegally taken by him.
Honestly, I think it is pretty clear he IS above the law that governs your average citizen. I agree that he should not be but all evidence suggests that this not true.
I don’t disagree with you. My points in the third and fourth bullets stand: we don’t have enough people in government interested in holding him accountable so it has to fall to us.
Trump _knows_ he is above the law because that's what the evidence consistently suggests.
I get what your saying but how can we fix things when we have judges with lifetime appointments. I will be long dead before any change even happens and I am not even 40. It will take almost a century to fix after all the ratfucking done to our country over the last 70 years.
We fight today and hope our kids have a better shot at tomorrow. Hindsight being 20/20, I spent so much time being apathetic and miserable watching all the ladders get pulled up in front of me, it never occurred to me to build my own. Now that my son is nearing his 18th, I'm mad I let so much time pass before figuring out how to have a voice. I don't want to leave him this world at all.
A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit.
John Roberts was right, there are only judges and Trump supporters /s
It is really galling that they are saying the only solution to Trump is in the coming election. This is exactly the guy who denies election results, does everything to overturn, discard and replace results he doesn't like. He and Republicans are doing everything they can and can't to predetermine elections, especially the upcoming one. And to threaten what they want to happen if they don't get their wins. Of course it gives every incentive to work for Trump and Republican losses. However even after that they'll just switch over to "he's lost the election, now let's forget it all as past and move on".
So if my understanding is correct he can appeal after paying the lesser amount, but if the appeal fails to overturn the judgement he’ll still be on the hook for the original amount?
That’s right, plus interest.
So why not just rush to the appeal?
Because the goal is the delay, not the victory. He probably can't win, but if he just drags it out past November...
Of course HE wants to delay. What is to stop NY from scheduling the appeal ASAP?
It’s not dependent on NY, it’s dependent on the appeal court’s schedule. NY can ask for an expedited appeal, but it’s up to the Court to grant it. Then if he loses, he’ll appeal to the New York Supreme Court (note, I have no idea what NY calls their State Supreme Court, but I actually don’t think it’s called the Supreme Court) if he loses, then the U.S. Supreme Court. Note, the supreme courts don’t have to take the case, but they still have to formally deny to take them. Could take some time.
Correct, but if you're newer to this trump guy, he'll somehow get off without consequence. Fuck that guy.
I'm mad about the whole thing, but it's just insulting to the people not to have an explanation. This court appears to be as corrupt as judge Cannon and SCOTUS
Isn't like a third of the judiciary all handpicked by federalist society?
Yes, and it might be more than that. McConnell and every complicit republican (all of them really) used Trump’s presidency to shovel a whole pig farm’s waste product’s worth of them into the courts. We have a very real problem. Remember how conservatives always screamed about “liberal” judges practicing activism from the bench, and how with conservatives it’s always projection? Yeah. We have a court system that is absolutely filthy with unqualified incompetent authoritarian conservatives who will not just practice activism, they’ll try to rule peoples’ lives from the bench.
And don't forget that the GOP does judge shopping where they file cases in the location where they are guaranteed to have their judge to hear the case. https://apnews.com/article/texas-judge-matthew-kacsmaryk-abortion-pill-fda-75964b777ef09593a1ad948c6cfc0237
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Henry Kissinger lived to 100 years old.
I guess this is a good time to remind people: in 2000, 18 NYC Property Tax Assessors were sentenced for taking bribes. Not a single rich person was ever arrested or even identified for actually paying the bribes. Edit: source https://www.propublica.org/article/trumps-company-paid-bribes-to-reduce-property-taxes-assessors-say
John Stewart has a really funny daily show post about this. Particularly the shark tank guy saying "y u coming down on him? Everybody does it!" Then then some shark tank clips of him saying people are wrong to over value themeselves
**James:** *makes an entirely neutral statement about the case* **Newsweek:** LAETITIA JAMES FIRES TUNGSTEN ROD FROM SPACE DIRECTLY UP TRUMP'S ASSHOLE IN SCATHING NUCLEAR REBUKE
The appeals judges are republican voters too. Apart from 1
And now a terrorist supporter
The person above already said republican
Tomato, tomatoe
By Natalie Venegas - Weekend Reporter: "After an appeals court ruled on Monday that Donald Trump could proceed with a much lower amount than the $454 million penalty against him in his civil fraud case, New York Attorney General Letitia James fired back at the former president. "Donald Trump is still facing accountability for his staggering fraud. The court has already found that he engaged in years of fraud to falsely inflate his net worth and unjustly enrich himself, his family, and his organization. The $464 million judgment – plus interest – against Donald Trump and the other defendants still stands," James said in a statement." Read more: [https://www.newsweek.com/letitia-james-fires-back-after-donald-trump-bond-reduction-new-york-civil-fraud-1883197](https://www.newsweek.com/letitia-james-fires-back-after-donald-trump-bond-reduction-new-york-civil-fraud-1883197)
If I was fined 100K it would hurt me as much as a 500 million judgement hurts him. The difference is - I would be in prison if I couldn't pay - they wouldn't reduce it to a payable amount for me. This two tiered justice system in this country is absolute BULLSHIT. He needs to be locked up for the rest of his miserable life. Do people not understand that if he wins the presidency again our country becomes Russia with never ending Trumps running things forever? VOTE like your life depends on it, because it does.
Why does this conman and traitor keep getting special treatment? WTF!!!
There is no justice in the US.
Banana Republic. US citizens were so smug about their "free and greatest country" in the world, they forgot to work to improve it. Now they are at the stage other countries were 60 years ago as banana Republic
Yeah, this will totally restore Americans’ faith in the justice system. > Donald Trump is still facing accountability for his staggering fraud. The court has already found that he engaged in years of fraud to falsely inflate his net worth and unjustly enrich himself, his family, and his organization. The $464 million judgment – plus interest – against Donald Trump and the other defendants still stands," James said in a statement.
I can’t understand what Trump did to deserve such an accommodation from the appeals court. He’s been nothing but belligerent in public comments regarding the trial. Wondering if his followers’ threats to the court influenced their “go easy” decision?
can others cite this case as precedent in the future?
Cite* This 175m is just what he had to downpay if he chooses to appeal the existing 450m ruling. So he still owes all of it, but if he wants to appeal, he has to cough up 175m of the full amount. It can set a precedent, but it probably wont.
Thank you for explaining this!
There will be no need. There will not be a justice department. Oh it might be called the justice department. But justice will be redefined to mean oppression.
Every time Trump is able to postpone consequences, he increases the chances of avoiding them entirely, or diminishing them in some way. In some cases he may be able to delay long enough so that the people trying to enforce the consequences get other jobs and the new ones may not have the same priorities. It exposes the system for what it is more than it exposes him for anything. Every day that he's successful in postponement or outright avoidance our democratic system is eroded a little bit further. It's up to us to stop it, I guess, because the justice system seems utterly incapable of doing it.
You did it for this broke-ass criminal. Now you’re gonna have to do it for every other broke-ass criminal.
A precedent has been set. Every criminal should feel entitled to appeal demand 60% off, and if they dont get it, appeal the appeals court decision.
Unfortunately, the appeals court didn't actually give an opinion on the matter. Their 1.5 pages just told trump they will lower. No explanation.
Do you need an opinion to have a precedent? Seems like it should make the scope of things wider, not narrower. If theyd said 'because hes campaigning and we dont want to interfere with that" then judges could claim the precedent doesnt apply for anyone not campaigning. if they'd alluded to his real estate holdings and said 'we can see he has the assets to cover, but think its too great a burden to make him sell assets in order to appeal' it could be argued their ruling only applied to those with large real estate (or possibly other investment) holdings But all they said was its 60% too high. Seems like any lawyer can claim they believe a bond is too high now and ask for a 60% reduction. Or maybe do some maths on what % of trumps value the 175M was and extrapolate how much they think their client may be forced to place as bond ('in Tfg vs NYAG, the appeals court ruled that 25% of a plaintif's net worth was too high a bond, and reduced it to 12%. We believe the courts have made a similar overstep and ask the courts to reduce to 60k, as that is 12% of the plaintifs net worth') (maybe they just argue that 175M is a cap now, and say a 200M is excessive) Unless theres something saying only decisions with reasoning included can set precedence and judges essentially have a choice whether or not to bind other judges to theirs?
I'm tired of these headlines that make this seem like some personal feud. He broke the law, he lied and cheated, he certainly cost the area tax money, he was found liable.
We get to see another tiered system of justice happen in real time
The point of these fines is to deter someone from committing the crime again. He has clearly learned nothing and has zero remorse and they are helping him anyway.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but paying the reduced bond is just to allow him to appeal. If he loses the appeal, he loses that bond and then has to pay the initial $464m amount (minus the $175m bond). I mean it's still stupid it was reduced, but the $464m was calculated based on the money he gained through fraud. I don't believe that initial $464m fine has technically been reduced (yet).
It’s not a fine, it’s a disgorgement. He has to pay back what he defrauded lenders.
The Trump family has owned New York Judges and Prosecutors since the 60s. Long before he was Mayor, Rudy Giuliani was a Mob and Trump fixer moonlighting as a prosecutor.
If I understand this right (please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not American nor do I fully understand the process) then he had to pay $464mil to appeal the decision of the court that he's a fraud and was overvaluing his property in New York. That $464mil has been reduced to $175mil if he wants to appeal, but even if he does appeal, if he loses then he will have to pay the rest which is $289mil? So although the appeal cost has gone down, he'll probably still be found guilty or whatever, and therefore have to pay the rest of the money and start losing his property?
In theory, yes. Don’t underestimate the corruption of our judiciary though. There could still be fuckery afoot.
Haha, I like that, "there could still be fuckery afoot." Most accurate assessment I've heard today.
Let's help.. Check your registration, get an ID , learn where your poling station is, learn who is running in down ballot races. Pay attention to primaries not just for the president but for all races, local, state and federal. From the school board to the White House every election matters. The more support we give the democrats from all levels of government the more they can get good things done. Last year democrat victories in Virginia and Pennsylvania and others across the nation have increased the chances of democrats winning this year. This year's elections are important but so will next year's elections. [https://ballotpedia.org/Elections\_calendar](https://ballotpedia.org/Elections_calendar)
Who are the individuals who made this happen? These people need to answer for their actions.
Justices Dianne T. Renwick, Anil C. Singh, Lizbeth González, Bahaati E. Pitt-Burke, and Kelly O'Neill Levy.
This clown is making America an international joke.
If I ever get into legal trouble I’ll simply change my name to Donaldd Trumpp so that I can get away with all sorts of crimes.
I have absolutely no faith in our justice system anymore. I won’t believe he will actually pay anything or spend a day in jail until it happens.
I’m expecting in the next ten days he’ll get it reduced again. This process will repeat until he owes ten bucks. He’ll still refuse to pay it.
The way this shit is going, I'm half expecting in 2 weeks the pricks decide to pay trump $175 million.
Once again... the wealthy get breaks that the poor and middle class would never get. Remember that next time someone tells you that raising taxes on the wealthy "wouldn't be fair". They already get an extreme number of breaks.
I understand the intent but...the system clearly needs less appeal systems. Especially ones that only work for people who can afford them. Trump shouldn't have been given 1/10th of the second tries he already has been in this ONE case alone. A justice system that can be impacted by money is not a justice system. Also, obviously, a whole lot of judges need to be removed.
2 tiered justice system in America on full display 🙄🙄🙄 The US is a shithole
I honestly think that people are just scared. Scared of his base, scared of the ramifications of not helping Trump if he wins the election this fall. There WILL be a bloodbath, IMO. Trump will ratfuck every single person who didn't help him and he'll ratfuck some of those who did. It's fear.
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So they would decide that as a bond the amount is too high, but that as a judgement it was fine?
He should have to sell shit. He’s being coddled.
It’s good that at least one trial will now take place. He did every single thing he was charged with.
Jesus Christ, can someone do *anything* about this man? Just *one thing* needs to stick. Please? Amen.
Go ahead and do what he did and see how far that gets you.
If they gave him a break then they should have collected it the second he was told it was reduced by 68%! Talk about a two-tiered system.
Vote
Let's play Devil's Advocate. This ruling to reduce the bond was to allow the appeals process to proceed before what is likely irreversible damage of asset seizure that will likely end with the property being sold by the state. He is unlikely to succeed in the markets with the appeal and it will allow the interests to further build up, and him to have more legal fees build up. Also it is looking like he may not be able to to cover the slightly over 100million bond as well. Every chance is being given which cuts off his means for appeal and to reduce his ability for a successful adversarial persecution. He deserves to have the book bashed.into his skull but because of his political standing and following steps absolutely need to be made. There is a multi-tiered justice system. Now don't get me wrong I believe individuals that are in positions of power (politics, police, lawyers and such) should be held to higher standards and should have increased punishments and lower bars to reach those punishments when abuse of their power is in question, but all these steps need to also be in place to help limit and prevent individuals from prosecuting their political rivals. Trump is guilty and he isn't even arguing he isn't just that it was ok for him to do it. This is outside the normal scope by such a large margin
People shouldn't really be angry over this IMO it's pretty much a bog-standard ruling by Appellate here on Bond. It doesn't actually benefit anyone (including the state) to have to go through asset seizure/forfeiture, and these types of adjustments are extremely common for everyone of every economic class. Trump's lawyers claiming victory over having to put up $175m in Bond - still an enormous amount, is kind of funny however. Also grounds for appeal seem shaky, and nothing the AG or the Judge did has been illogical from a legal perspective. It will be hard for Trump to get around paying the full amount eventually from what I can see at least.
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