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I will absolutely vote for whoever makes it out of the primary, no question. But since that hasn’t happened yet may as well deal with the difficult questions now instead of later.
Exactly. I was thinking this today. Lotta people readily point out the lemmings group think of the Republican base, but never look in the mirror when it comes to how viscous they can be when someone doesn’t toe their own party line. If you want a party of free thinkers, this is what you get- a fuck ton of infighting and low turn outs. The only way to counter those things is pretty simply: run a decent candidate. Telling everyone they must support the DNC Manchurian candidate every election because to not vote for them is like giving it away to the republicans isn’t going to cut it.
So much this. Are we really any better than the MAGA if we're going to deny what our eyes and ears are telling us? He's not fit, and no amount of gaslighting will change that.
And don't even start with the whataboutism. Yes, Trump sucks and also isn't fit. Yes, it may be our democracy at stake. And yes, I'll vote for his corpse over Trump if it comes to it.
But I'd much rather vote for an actual candidate who can do the job. Please, DNC, give us such a candidate.
As much as i would love you to be wrong, you're not. When we get to November, i hope everyone puts their head down and joins the scrum to push behind the guy that isn't Trump, but until then, talking through our options is a good thing.
my only issue is this long lead up and filling the news cycle with "dems down bad" headlines. Ive seen more "Biden is old; time to replace" than I have about "presidential immunity", "Trump case postponed", "project 2025" or anything else.
100 different articles by the media is only hurting the situation further
Oh yeah. They blamed the 2016 loss on Bernie supporters. And Russia. Pretty much anyone, but the person who lost and the party that insisted on that candidate.
I blame Hillary's campaign for actively supporting Trump during the primary -- because they thought he would be easier to be beat. She bears some culpability for our current situation.
I understand that you don't like the way Bernie was trashed. (Hillary was also trashed BTW and I don't want to relive who was more victimized by whom--it was a huge mess with lots of interloping to make it worse--what happened then is a good reason to stop calling for Joe Biden to step aside.)
But what's this about Russia? You don't think there was interference or collusion?
Not in such a way that lost Clinton the election. She’s never been a popular candidate, but they kept pushing her on us. They tried to do the same when she ran against Obama, but they were willing to let him take the nomination because he was just as much of a centrist but with broader appeal.
I specifically avoided that overplayed argument, tread lightly and avoided taking sides or assigning blame to make sure we can move onto the other thing. Then I asked about Russia. Are you going to answer the question about Russia?
I see this
> They blamed the 2016 loss on Bernie supporters. And Russia
and this
>You don't think there was interference or collusion?
But I don't see you taking a position of whether Russia interfered....
Answer the question.
He's looked weak long before that. Being President is a very demanding job. It ages everyone who has done the job. It affected Trump the least, of course, since he was the absolute laziest President of all time.
If he couldn’t have a debate then he shouldn’t have been the candidate. They should have stepped in earlier so we had a suitable candidate. Huge mistake by leadership imo. No way this should be a close election.
Dems tend to play by the rules and traditions. A incumbent usually has some advantage but this is not a typical election. Biden barely scraped by in 2020. If we elected Presidents with the popular vote I wouldn't be concerned. Unfortunately we have the Electoral College which gives Republicans a handicap. Without the EC most of the modern Republican presidents would not have been elected.
The guy in the biggest moment on the biggest stage with everything on the line fell flat on his face. How much worse is it going to get? Is he going to freeze up in his acceptance speech and do that unblinking mouth agape look? Is he going to brag about killing social security in the next debate? He had one job to do......one damn job and he couldnt do it. Ive seen enough. He needs to go.
You don’t have to be a cult to know that right now being loyal is the way to get out of this. I was a Bernie bro, I’m a leftist. But changing the nominee this late in the game feels like suicide.
Biden is 6 points behind in polling (and has been for a while). Because of the way the EC is set up, Democrats need to be up 4 or 5. He’s literally down 10 points from where he needs to be. It’s already dead unless Biden can somehow restore confidence, but if his brain is deteriorating that’s going to be hard.
Changing it now is the best chance. At the very least you can create a spark or use shock value to get attention to a more likeable candidate who has a better chance at winning.
Looking at the Wikipedia page:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_opinion_polling_for_the_2012_United_States_presidential_election
Polling was between -1 and +3. And there were periods where Romney would go in front, but it wasn’t consistent. And Obama had wide support by Democrat voters and people believed he could pull it out.
The difference with Biden is he hasn’t been in the lead in polling since last August iirc and the gap has been getting worse over time. -6 is a BIG gap right now.
Where are those people? They went to undecided. Nearly all of them are coming back. Similar thing actually happening with Donald Trump whose numbers are down too but not as much.
Turnout will be a greater factor in the 2024 election than these poll results. If overall turnout remains at or near 2020 levels, then Joe Biden gets back in. If it slips too much, then Donald Trump squeaks in against the people's wishes again.
All the turmoil right now and the bigger turmoil that would result should Joe Biden step aside is discouraging to people who might want to vote for someone to keep Trump out. That's how Democrats lose. That is exactly how Republicans took back the House in the last election. Turnout.
Maybe we should work more on the substance anyway. Biden is the most progressive president since Lyndon Johnson and it is not even close. Biden is running the White House now and much is happening. Biden has always said ridiculous things like corn pop and hairy legs, and it is fair to say he was particularly bad in the debate and getting pretty old--but take a look at the worse case scenario. Say Biden dies. Shit happens. Presidents get killed or die in office. Life goes on. The Biden team would still be in place and the office would be assumed by his trusted successor. Think of Teddy Roosevelt or Harry Truman.
Turnout is going to be hard to reach. Part of why 2020 was so high was because there was ready access to mail in voting in a lot of states, which won’t be the case this year.
Also, this is the worst the Democrat nominee has polled in at least 20 years. We can’t just ignore that.
No you aren't a cult, by failing to realize that your freedoms and democracy are at stake you are helping them though. Instead of focusing on that the focus is on Biden, it shouldn't matter who is at the top of the ticket. They are the better option no matter what, the alternative is facism. It is a privilege to be able to have this much discussion and disagreement that the focus moves away from what matters is a privilege you no longer have.
True, but it's still fucking depressing that one guy finally gets convicted of a felony and his side is all nah he's gonna be our nominee, and then the other guy has a not so great debate with felony guy, and despite everything else he's done as President his people are asking for him to step aside as a result.
I don't give a fuck at how Biden appeared at the damn debate. Sure it wasn't great, but we've seen what the other guy does when he's in power and we know what he and his party want to do if they regain that power, so while I'm not enthused to vote for rough debate night guy I'm gonna fucking do it anyway so felony guy doesn't get another chance to fuck shit up even more.
Biden’s cognitive ability has been in question for years. I’ll be the first to say, I’ve ignored 95% of it. Up until now.
Last Thursday showed how much he has lost it. And for god sakes, let’s get off the narrative of “it was just one time” How come that “one time” coincidently happened at the most consequential President Debate in American history?
We gave them a chance by falling in line and not putting a serious contender against him in the primary. They don’t get a third chance. They embarrassed us enough and are risking everything.
That’s my feeling as well, yet when I suggest Kamala 2024 I get downvoted. I might just not vote and focus on my personal life and making a difference there.
'I'm a Democrat but I can't vote for Joe Biden even though my favorite Kamala Harris would be his successor should anything happen. I'd prefer to sit back and let Donald Trump back in.'
This seems like a good place to remind people that the 2024 election will be decided more by who turns out versus who stays home than anything else.
You're missing the point.
Biden is the nominee and the time to replace him has passed. The movement to replace him should have happened a long time ago.
Rally around your nominee or lose.
No sir. You’re missing the point. Biden is going to lose not because we’re calling to replace him, he’s going to lose because he is unfit to serve another 4 years and proved that to everyone last Thursday.
Falling in line behind an old man who is continuously losing his step will not win us the election.
If he’s the nominee, I’ll vote for him. But it’s purely anti trump at this time. And it PAINS me to vote for someone I know can’t do the job. Independents (votes we need) are much more likely to stay home.
Just like the debate. Trump did not win any swing voters on Thursday. He probably lost quite a few. But Biden lost even more. And these swing state middle of politics voters aren't going to vote for either or won't show up to the polls at all. Trump did not win Thursday but Biden did lose
100%
Both candidates are terrible options in their own ways. This election has become who can “lose less”.
We have an opportunity to flip the script. We can nominate someone that can excite not only long discouraged Dems but also pull in independents who are BEGGING for another option.
We’ll lose with him. Replacing him is the only chance we have at this point, and I think that would only give the Democrats a 50/50 shot. It’s scary right now.
Biden is not on the ticket until the convention. He's a terrible candidate who has shown signs of a steep and rapid decline, and his camp is still preventing him from having unscripted conversations in public.
Rally around Joe and lose or find somebody else and still have a chance in November.
I mean I am just trying to think of everything I would do if I were him and he is doing the exact opposite of it. I would have been on the phone Friday with Congressional leaders and DNC and governors and donors explaining why I performed so bad and reassuring them. I would be sending Harris to the Sunday morning talk shows. I would be scheduling an interview....LIVE on Sunday night. The news cycle was going to be this all week so get ahead of it. I would be meeting with the Democratic caucus at the Capitol and letting them vent and telling them what I was going to do. Instead its the staff doing Zoom conferences and a few campaign rallies on a teleprompter and listening to Jill and Hunter.
Yes, exactly. The key word here is *unscripted*. The fact Biden's team is hesitant to do that and still sequestering him just reinforces doubts and shows he needs to step aside.
Yeah this is what's pissing people off now even more than the debate, sure everyone can have off days but you quickly go back to show your on days to restore confidence, Biden and his team could easily do this with unscripted events right after the debate, town-halls, public appearances to show he still has it. Instead, they're still basically sequestering him away from the public which is stupid. Even editing transcripts where he slips up in speeches from a teleprompter. Sorry, no.
Get President Biden out doing daily live interviews and events or step down. And since its clear they're nervous about putting out in public it's time to step down. I don't know what it is he's had leading up to the debate, not convinced it's dementia they're even saying it may have been a bad infection he got after an injury last year but he's not capable now. It's not even about age, I had trainers for my job literally in their *90's* who were sharp as a tack, smart and physically fit, better than even thirtysomethings. And we'll probably see more of that with improved medical tech and discoveries now, they're saying they can do things like stem cells or something to regenerate organs and even brain circuits.
But in Biden's *particular case* for some reason or another, he's in much worse shape now and isn't fit to lead. If the debate had been a blip, then he could fix it by just getting out there in unscripted appearances. That his team hesitates to do it is a clear signal he needs to step aside. Bring in Andy Beshear, Mark Kelly, Roy Cooper, heck even Michelle Obama or Corey Booker would demolish Trump. Just stop holding off and do it.
> They warned that Doggett's statement will not be a "one-off" and more members will likely follow his lead if the White House doesn't "start to show that they get it.”
Here’s the shot across the bow. This is the worst possible outcome for Biden. It’s not going to be a dam breaking - it’s going to be drip, drip, drip. The longer this goes, the more Biden’s going to bleed support.
Straight up.
There's a room in the White House with cameras rolling at all times. It's near the Oval Office. He could walk in there right now and address the nation to every television and Internet connected device.
It sure would help.
So...why won't he
Yeah, the obvious way to remove doubts after the debate and argue it was an off day is.. show it was an off day. Return with a bunch of on days where you're out there, unscripted doing live interviews, or town-halls. Totally obvious solution, especially with the US facing some combination of a potential breakup, fascism or balkanization and a loss of democracy at stake. Yet he and his staff still sequester him. Which shows to all of us.. no it wasn't just an off day.
>The Biden campaign has also emphasized that he is "absolutely not dropping out."
Nice. When so many of your constituents and colleagues want you to drop, when you've just had the worst debate performance in the history of televised presidential debates, and when your polling is dropping like a stone in states that Dems haven't lost in over 20 years, this stance really shows that you're in this race for the best interests of the country, Joe.
Yeah I don't believe it. The pressure seems to be mounting still, and if he continues to refuse people are going to get angry and it will just get worse.
Its been five days and he still hasnt talked to Jeffries? I mean WTF? How was he not sitting down for a live interview Sunday morning or on 60 Minutes that night? Fighter my ass.
Yeah it is weird. That is something I read in a comment I think- he says he's not stepping out but what we're seeing from the campaign doesn't support that. Though he is doing an interview on Friday I think?
Yes he has a taped interview on Friday. Not sure when it actually takes place tho. Its taking his campaign that long to prepare him I guess. Unbelievable.
What I read was that his camp hasn’t even spoken to *Harris’* since the debate. It seems like it’s all ego.
I will say Harris’ ego is insane too because I did read she’s miffed the conversation immediately went to Whitmer and Newsome without even considering her replacing him
Which, fair, she's the Vice President and his running mate. Any conversation about Biden stepping aside kinda necessarily has to include her. I'd be miffed too
I agree with that! It should be anticipated as the VP to be the one to step up. Easy enough to step directly into the party platform without too many hiccups.
However, I think she doesn’t understand how deeply unpopular she is among the electorate. Aside from post-debate, her unfavorable ranking was at least 4-5% points lower than his. I think the only time she’s ever come out on top was post-debate.
I think her issue is lack of charisma. She never has been able to shake her years of prosecutorial work. She was/is a talented prosecutor (noting that I DO NOT agree with a big portion of it) but that kind of position requires you to be whip-smart and tough as nails at all times. Sometimes the nation needs a kinder hand and even when she’s joking around she comes off condescending.
I would love a female president, I would love a president of color, I would love a queer president. *IF* we’re heading towards a candidate swap this close to election, then I have to think something that I believe to be very controversial and that goes against every belief of mine. Two straight white dudes.
If we’re switching this close we need to avoid every horrible misogynist, racist, and homophobe. It’s horrible to think, it’s horrible to say, and horrible to even type out. We understand the voting electorate and their biases. I say this as a queer man.
I like Kamala but I don’t think she’d win. Especially because this is now the only time her favorability has surpassed his. The data is all there.
She has the Uniqueness, Nerve, and Talent. She’s just missing the Charisma.
He had jet lag for two weeks after returning from Europe.....apparently a two day trip to his beach house then a trip to Camp David where he was sleeping till 11am and then taking a nap every day wasnt enough.
Yeah that's just not excusable. He's also been refusing to talk with the governors. Or with Pelosi or Schumer. When something like that debate happens the first thing that comes up is getting a move on to remove doubts, make the calls and meet with your people, get out there and campaign in unscripted events. Not a good look when you're still sequestering away from that.
Yeah at this point the only thing can think of he's giving that line publicly about staying in, maybe to give a few extra days for Dems to pick a successor but even his insiders know it's time to step aside. He's completely lost the support even of senior Democrats and close friends now and still refusing to do unscripted, public events to restore confidence. Because even his inner circle he's in too bad a shape to keep going. So the Dems are maybe figuring out the next steps, maybe meeting up in Kentucky or Arizona with Andy Beshear or Mark Kelly or whoever they have in mind to succeed Biden now in a short anti primary, just pick someone the base and major Dems will rally around and move with.
Not to mention his remarks yesterday essentially stating he will not act any differently in light of the Supreme Court ruling even though he knows Trump will.
Yeah don't know why so many Redditors are making this thing sound so complicated. There are systems in place to transfer power, nominations and funding in unexpected events, after all a nominee could for all kinds of reasons not be able to continue. Of course they have means to hand over positions and funding, bylaws specific for that.
The war chest is pointless. Biden/Harris could spend every dime of that money twice over and it still wouldn't move the needle.
Biden's brain is no longer functioning at a capacity required to do the job only hardcore Democrats will vote for a dementia patient.
The hard truth is that hardcore Democrats aren't spread out enough to overcome the Electoral College.
Running negative ads will have zero effect on Trump. Running positive ads is not going to make independent voters and wayward republican voters turn out for Biden.
This is the worst possible outcome. The events of the last week cannot be undone. If Biden attempts to stay after the party did everything possible to throw him out it will be a travesty of epic proportions.
The Democrats cannot let up the pressure. They cannot accept that he will “shake things up.” Cannot just go back to their comfort zone with him. There’s no going back it’s all or nothing, he’s got to go now no matter what.
Tired from traveling, after spending a week at Camp David resting.
If my guy needs **more** than a week of rest before a two hour debate... They ain't up for the job.
Two weeks, even. It was like 11 or 12 days since he flew back from Europe. No case of jetlag lasts that long. But it's even worse because now it's sounding like Biden got it in his head, he *did* get back just a couple days before the debate. He couldn't even recall he'd been in the US for 12 days before that!
I can’t tell if this is serious or not but if it is, it really does not matter what the reason is. Nobody cares. Biden is plummeting so hard Dems are now losing New Jersey and New Hampshire. The Biden campaign is dead, now it is just a matter of if he will take the party down with him and how to move on.
Signs of his apparent dementia have been growing more frequent and more severe for a year, and maybe you have not seen them because you are perhaps in a left-wing echo chamber. Whatever is wrong with him looks like dementia to most people, and the debate confirmed it. He may recover from his "cold" but he will not recover from the picture of himself he has been painting for the past year. We need a new and viable candidate.
For sure. If the Republican Party wasn’t full of incompetents we’d be in real trouble. I always get a lot a shit for saying it, but McConnell will go down in history as being one of the most effective US politicians. That ratfuck accomplished so much of his agenda over his career.
The only small joy I get from the absolute fucking unprecedented disaster another Trump presidency will be is that McConnell is a target and will suffer explicitly because of the machinations he put into place.
I mean, we will still all be going down on the ship but hey, at least we get one middle finger to the pricks that sunk us.
Calling on him to drop out with no one in the wings just seems nonsensical in July. That's just a party committing seppuku.
UNHELPFUL: "Biden should drop out."
HELPFUL: "Biden should drop out and we are prepared to run _____ instead."
Dude everyone's talking about who to replace him with. Internal dem polling just released showing that Buttigieg, Whitmer, Newsom, and Harris all perform better than him in a general election, in that order.
But no matter who replaces him, the one thing that is currently certain is that Biden needs to drop out so we can begin the process to find a replacement.
> But no matter who replaces him, the one thing that is currently certain is that Biden needs to drop out so we can begin the process to find a replacement.
Respectfully, I would argue that this person needs to be selected and ready to hit the ground before Biden calls it quits. The chaos of a week or even a day without a clear nominee would cause immeasurable pandemonium.
Yeah guessing that's what's going on now. That even may be the reason why Biden hasn't yet publicly announced he's stepping down, they're making giving the Dem leaders a few more days to figure out succession quietly, behind the closed doors.
Andy Beshear too, he's the Democratic governor of ultra-red *Kentucky*, of all places won twice there, super popular, the guy speaks smooth as Reagan did so not a concern about having good delivery. The polling of alternatives is hard just because of name recognition, most Americans won't know those other names and that would be irrelevant once they're nominated--their names would become known right away. But Beshear seems to check all the boxes on the type of Democrat who can sweep through swing states and just dismantle Trump in debates and on campaign trail.
Why is it always Newsom? The Governor of California isn’t going to make any inroads where we need them. Also, he just gives off sleazebag vibes.
Whitmer/Booker is the ticket for me. Whitmer is sufficiently distant from the Biden administration, she’s from the Midwest, and hopefully she’s without major skeletons. Booker is a whip smart seasoned Senator who can talk himself out of a paper bag and can also help to assuage the Clyburns of the world who will cry racism if Harris is replaced.
Or Beshear, from Kentucky, not only strong in swing states but even puts red states into play, not just in Kentucky. Church going and comes off as strong and personable. Have some family in Michigan and there's still some grumbling about how the covid lock-downs went too far there, not sure what to believe but maybe that would be an issue in some of the Midwest in a Whitmer campaign. While Beshear doesn't have any such baggage and comes off as incredible popular. Or maybe Mark Kelly from Arizona, closest we have to real life case of a classic true American hero and patriot.
The way they make it look legit is by getting Biden to treat the new ticket like he birthed it himself. Offer Harris AG and thank her for her service.
I’m a Pete Buttigieg fan but I think anyone in the administration is toxic at this point - it has to be someone outside the administration but within that group of the “new crop” of Democratic Party leaders being speculated about (so that the name doesn’t come out of nowhere).
still a bad look though. why would people trust biden to put forward another candidate for presidency though when he already chose harris as his number 2. It would make people question his judgement; why would he put someone else in to replace him in the event of medical issues when harris was already selected for that. It would look ridiculous.
Because of the political realities of the situation. Harris would be tarred with all of the things people don’t like about the Biden administration and will also have to face questions about why she just cackled herself around the country knowing the President was not fit to serve (as we will continue to hear more about in the coming weeks).
Combined with her tepid popularity, lack of ability to connect with the general public, her non-existent political identity, and her own proclivity for nonsensical ramblings, it makes her a complete nonstarter.
Unfortunately, it seems like she’s as delusional as Team Biden.
it doesn’t matter about what people think of her or her joe biden’s administration ; she’s the vice president and that’s her role. they can’t just pick someone out of a hat without it looking extremely strange and undemocratic. The only way the dnc can get away with dropping biden is by having kamala substitute him because biden is basically dead already.
How is that her role? Biden could swap her out for Trisha Paytas if he wanted to. As Selina Meyer put it: “being Vice President is like being sealed in an abandoned coal mine under two miles of human shit”.
Kamala Harris has no mandate independent of Biden’s intentions for even a second VP term, never mind becoming the Democratic nominee.
But the thing I disagree with the most is that “it doesn’t matter what people think of her”. That’s what matters the most. There are no rules - this is a politics; she didn’t meet the moment and spent the last 3.5 years doing God knows what, and now people don’t see her as a viable alternative.
It helps to get Biden to agree to step down first, before other loyal democrats to step up. It is a bad look for his replacement to go after him directly. He needs to step down so others can step up and look like heros, not back stabbers.
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This needs to stop. He didn’t debate well against someone whole lied through their teeth and didn’t answer any of the questions.
Yes he is old. Maybe too old.
What do people want 4 more years of the at the worst the status quo and the chance at someone else, or trump forever?
This shit is unironically pissing me off. The lack of loyalty or respect is shameful shit. Republicans rallied around trump through his criminal trials
I see you're already getting dogpiled but yeah... Republicans shouldn't have rallied around Trump when he was a criminal and Democrats shouldn't rally around Biden when he's incapable.
>Republicans rallied around trump through his criminal trials
That's a bad thing, not a good thing. "People should be loyal to Biden regardless of whether he's a good choice as a candidate" is wrong
> Yet they are showing more willingness to support their guy than the dems.
Yeah, because they want to win and be in power and don't care how that happens.
Because they plan on installing autocracy in the USA. Meanwhile they are thrilled right now. If Biden stays in he is getting killed by this dissension in the party. If he is replaced they get to run against a last second replacement installed by the party three months before the election. The best route here was rallying around Joe but they blew that so I guess we’ll just have to hope the GOP doesn’t fuck the country up to bad in 2025
Yea man the best course of action was to rally around a candidate that is incapable of functioning past 4pm and is also currently getting crushed in internal polling. 👍
You don't get to be president because it's owed to you. You fucking earn it and if you can't prove you're the best you're out. Simple. No one owes him shit when another Trump presidency is the alternative.
Internal polls have him losing every single swing state as well as previously assumed safe states. He's done.
And the few who did wade the waters of public Trump criticism, came back into the fold with their tails between their legs, and whiplash from their breakneck 180’s. Graham, Cruz, Rubio, McCarthy et. al.
Continuity of government.
If Biden announces he's not running, any and all political initiatives that his administration is pursuing will halt while everyone tries to cozy up to the new guy.
He'll be yesterday's news - he'll have his formal authority but little influence.
Your point, stated another way: "Republicans rallied around Trump even though he obviously shouldn't be president."
And you want Democrats to also do that?
I have no loyalty to any politician. None whatsoever. What I want is for good people to get elected who will make the country better, and Biden is not getting elected.
And who do you think is? You install Whitmer this late in the game, no name recognition, after forcing Joe out in front of the whole country, do you really think she’s winning? Hell no. That’s delusional and you need to disabuse yourself of that moronic notion asap
No point in arguing with these people. They legit think the entire country knows who whitmer and newsom are lmao. Most people vote off name recognition alone.
To me it's really up to knowing if Biden is up to it mentally. If we had confirmation that he's indeed healthy and perfectly fine and he had a bad night, then we should rally around him.
But if he does have early signs of cognitive decline confirmed, he should be replaced. Not just to win an election. But also on an ethical level. Rolling out a guy on the campaign trail who half the time is confused about what he's doing just because they think he has the best odds at beating Trump is simply inhumane.
> loyalty
Loyalty? You feel like it's loyal to lie to people about the president's capability? Why should we be loyal towards dishonesty? Respect people who respect you.
If that’s how you see it we have nothing more to talk about. Enjoy losing to trump after replacing the presumptive nominee a scant few months before the election, after not having them on the campaign trail.
they guy was already president for four years and vice president for 8 and a senator before that for many years. Seriously , no one owes him anything . he’s in his 80s and is having signs of serious mental deterioration. he’s had a full life already and he has already fulfilled his duty as president. it’s time to wave that ship goodbye and just fucking retire already.
I have very little loyalty or respect for Biden. I voted for him because *not Trump*, not for any other reason.
Among numerous other issues I have, at least the biggest one is he got into office and utterly failed at the most important job, dealing with the fascists. Making Merrick Garland AG was possibly the stupidest decision in American history and it's why Trump is still running around right now, with the next coup attempt lined up. And looks like Trump may not even need another coup at this point.
I'll vote for Biden again because I'm not a complete idiot. But there are unfortunately a lot of complete idiots out there.
But loyalty? respect? Nope. None.
Why be loyal to a candidate who’s guaranteed to lose in a landslide and completely destroy our democracy? And all because he’s stubbornly staying in for no other reason than ego (or rather Jill and Hunter’s egos, now that we know that Hunter’s a WH regular and Biden’s top advisor!)
What loyalty has Biden showed to democrats this past week? He had a melt down on Thursday and his campaign is aggressively attacking any democrat showing concern and is expecting everyone to lie through their teeth about his condition and throw away their credibility. They don’t even think he owes his party an explanation for what’s going on. That isn’t loyalty or respect, it goes both ways
Because we are concerned that the literal president could hardly form a sentence, all of a sudden we're just supposed to be like, yeah that's fine?! We're not sheep, man. See, that's what they do.
We need someone to push the agenda, to wake up in the middle of the night and be prepared to make some hard calls, not get flustered and need a week of prep to debate the dumbest piece of trash that's ever tried to politic. Joe Biden is a career politician, he's been doing this for like 50 years. If he can't debate someone like Trump who LITERALLY only said "immigrants are coming!!" Like 40 times and answered NOTHING that he was asked, then he doesn't get to play. He needs to step aside, plain and simple.
We’re actually at risk of losing because the party is tearing itself apart out in the open instead of rallying around joe. That’s just my opinion but it really does feel that is the case
The party is tearing itself apart because leadership is desperately trying to pretend that a five alarm fire is just a smokey burner on the stove. Everybody except for the most doggedly partisan die-hards can see that a new candidate is needed ASAP and no amount of shrieking about how everyone should just respect the fact that a senile old man thinks protecting his ego is more important than serving the country he is supposed to be leading will change that.
The difference is MAGA is a cult that worships Trump and loves his flaws. If both candidates ate a live baby on stage then Biden's supporters would flip out and declare they want a candidate that does not eat babies. Trump's people would say Trump did not eat a baby, Biden did, and besides, the baby that Trump ate deserved it because it was a liberal trans immigrant baby. Then they would pass out recipes for cooking liberal babies.
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Those saying that Dems need to be loyal like a Republicans are missing the point. We’re not a cult.
I will absolutely vote for whoever makes it out of the primary, no question. But since that hasn’t happened yet may as well deal with the difficult questions now instead of later.
Exactly. I was thinking this today. Lotta people readily point out the lemmings group think of the Republican base, but never look in the mirror when it comes to how viscous they can be when someone doesn’t toe their own party line. If you want a party of free thinkers, this is what you get- a fuck ton of infighting and low turn outs. The only way to counter those things is pretty simply: run a decent candidate. Telling everyone they must support the DNC Manchurian candidate every election because to not vote for them is like giving it away to the republicans isn’t going to cut it.
So much this. Are we really any better than the MAGA if we're going to deny what our eyes and ears are telling us? He's not fit, and no amount of gaslighting will change that. And don't even start with the whataboutism. Yes, Trump sucks and also isn't fit. Yes, it may be our democracy at stake. And yes, I'll vote for his corpse over Trump if it comes to it. But I'd much rather vote for an actual candidate who can do the job. Please, DNC, give us such a candidate.
As much as i would love you to be wrong, you're not. When we get to November, i hope everyone puts their head down and joins the scrum to push behind the guy that isn't Trump, but until then, talking through our options is a good thing.
my only issue is this long lead up and filling the news cycle with "dems down bad" headlines. Ive seen more "Biden is old; time to replace" than I have about "presidential immunity", "Trump case postponed", "project 2025" or anything else. 100 different articles by the media is only hurting the situation further
Right on brother. We. Are. Better. Than. This!
It reminds me how people called me an anti-feminist and worse because I supported Bernie in the primary...
Oh yeah. They blamed the 2016 loss on Bernie supporters. And Russia. Pretty much anyone, but the person who lost and the party that insisted on that candidate.
I blame Hillary's campaign for actively supporting Trump during the primary -- because they thought he would be easier to be beat. She bears some culpability for our current situation.
I understand that you don't like the way Bernie was trashed. (Hillary was also trashed BTW and I don't want to relive who was more victimized by whom--it was a huge mess with lots of interloping to make it worse--what happened then is a good reason to stop calling for Joe Biden to step aside.) But what's this about Russia? You don't think there was interference or collusion?
Not in such a way that lost Clinton the election. She’s never been a popular candidate, but they kept pushing her on us. They tried to do the same when she ran against Obama, but they were willing to let him take the nomination because he was just as much of a centrist but with broader appeal.
I specifically avoided that overplayed argument, tread lightly and avoided taking sides or assigning blame to make sure we can move onto the other thing. Then I asked about Russia. Are you going to answer the question about Russia?
I literally just did.
I see this > They blamed the 2016 loss on Bernie supporters. And Russia and this >You don't think there was interference or collusion? But I don't see you taking a position of whether Russia interfered.... Answer the question.
🙄 Eh. You’re too thick to bother with further explanation if you didn’t get it the first time.
There is a difference between independent thought and poor election strategy.
Keeping the guy who died on the debate stage is good election strategy?
Shoulda never got to that point.
He's looked weak long before that. Being President is a very demanding job. It ages everyone who has done the job. It affected Trump the least, of course, since he was the absolute laziest President of all time.
If he couldn’t have a debate then he shouldn’t have been the candidate. They should have stepped in earlier so we had a suitable candidate. Huge mistake by leadership imo. No way this should be a close election.
Dems tend to play by the rules and traditions. A incumbent usually has some advantage but this is not a typical election. Biden barely scraped by in 2020. If we elected Presidents with the popular vote I wouldn't be concerned. Unfortunately we have the Electoral College which gives Republicans a handicap. Without the EC most of the modern Republican presidents would not have been elected.
The guy in the biggest moment on the biggest stage with everything on the line fell flat on his face. How much worse is it going to get? Is he going to freeze up in his acceptance speech and do that unblinking mouth agape look? Is he going to brag about killing social security in the next debate? He had one job to do......one damn job and he couldnt do it. Ive seen enough. He needs to go.
1 died 1 took a shit bad picks either way but I’d pick anyone over the person that gave us this Supreme Court.
100%. But independent voters don’t think like us. We need them to win the election.
You say that but roe v wade overturned caused a big upset last election cycle.
Biden needs to be loyal to us.
You don’t have to be a cult to know that right now being loyal is the way to get out of this. I was a Bernie bro, I’m a leftist. But changing the nominee this late in the game feels like suicide.
Biden is 6 points behind in polling (and has been for a while). Because of the way the EC is set up, Democrats need to be up 4 or 5. He’s literally down 10 points from where he needs to be. It’s already dead unless Biden can somehow restore confidence, but if his brain is deteriorating that’s going to be hard. Changing it now is the best chance. At the very least you can create a spark or use shock value to get attention to a more likeable candidate who has a better chance at winning.
Where was Obama right now against Romney?
Looking at the Wikipedia page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_opinion_polling_for_the_2012_United_States_presidential_election Polling was between -1 and +3. And there were periods where Romney would go in front, but it wasn’t consistent. And Obama had wide support by Democrat voters and people believed he could pull it out. The difference with Biden is he hasn’t been in the lead in polling since last August iirc and the gap has been getting worse over time. -6 is a BIG gap right now.
Where are those people? They went to undecided. Nearly all of them are coming back. Similar thing actually happening with Donald Trump whose numbers are down too but not as much. Turnout will be a greater factor in the 2024 election than these poll results. If overall turnout remains at or near 2020 levels, then Joe Biden gets back in. If it slips too much, then Donald Trump squeaks in against the people's wishes again. All the turmoil right now and the bigger turmoil that would result should Joe Biden step aside is discouraging to people who might want to vote for someone to keep Trump out. That's how Democrats lose. That is exactly how Republicans took back the House in the last election. Turnout. Maybe we should work more on the substance anyway. Biden is the most progressive president since Lyndon Johnson and it is not even close. Biden is running the White House now and much is happening. Biden has always said ridiculous things like corn pop and hairy legs, and it is fair to say he was particularly bad in the debate and getting pretty old--but take a look at the worse case scenario. Say Biden dies. Shit happens. Presidents get killed or die in office. Life goes on. The Biden team would still be in place and the office would be assumed by his trusted successor. Think of Teddy Roosevelt or Harry Truman.
Turnout is going to be hard to reach. Part of why 2020 was so high was because there was ready access to mail in voting in a lot of states, which won’t be the case this year. Also, this is the worst the Democrat nominee has polled in at least 20 years. We can’t just ignore that.
That's why we lost SCOTUS
Those not voting Dem will get a cult governing their country for a very long time.
Also, we'd like to fucking win this one.
No you aren't a cult, by failing to realize that your freedoms and democracy are at stake you are helping them though. Instead of focusing on that the focus is on Biden, it shouldn't matter who is at the top of the ticket. They are the better option no matter what, the alternative is facism. It is a privilege to be able to have this much discussion and disagreement that the focus moves away from what matters is a privilege you no longer have.
True, but it's still fucking depressing that one guy finally gets convicted of a felony and his side is all nah he's gonna be our nominee, and then the other guy has a not so great debate with felony guy, and despite everything else he's done as President his people are asking for him to step aside as a result. I don't give a fuck at how Biden appeared at the damn debate. Sure it wasn't great, but we've seen what the other guy does when he's in power and we know what he and his party want to do if they regain that power, so while I'm not enthused to vote for rough debate night guy I'm gonna fucking do it anyway so felony guy doesn't get another chance to fuck shit up even more.
"Blue MAGA" as Cenk Ugyur is calling them.
Biden was the president for 3 years. What changed, one night? Biden/Kamala deserves another chance.
Biden’s cognitive ability has been in question for years. I’ll be the first to say, I’ve ignored 95% of it. Up until now. Last Thursday showed how much he has lost it. And for god sakes, let’s get off the narrative of “it was just one time” How come that “one time” coincidently happened at the most consequential President Debate in American history? We gave them a chance by falling in line and not putting a serious contender against him in the primary. They don’t get a third chance. They embarrassed us enough and are risking everything.
That’s my feeling as well, yet when I suggest Kamala 2024 I get downvoted. I might just not vote and focus on my personal life and making a difference there.
Kamala isn’t my first choice, but at this point I do believe she would fair far better than Biden.
'I'm a Democrat but I can't vote for Joe Biden even though my favorite Kamala Harris would be his successor should anything happen. I'd prefer to sit back and let Donald Trump back in.' This seems like a good place to remind people that the 2024 election will be decided more by who turns out versus who stays home than anything else.
You're missing the point. Biden is the nominee and the time to replace him has passed. The movement to replace him should have happened a long time ago. Rally around your nominee or lose.
Die hard Dems alone won't win these. We need people off the middle. Joe can't do that anymore. There is no going back from last Thursday.
No sir. You’re missing the point. Biden is going to lose not because we’re calling to replace him, he’s going to lose because he is unfit to serve another 4 years and proved that to everyone last Thursday. Falling in line behind an old man who is continuously losing his step will not win us the election. If he’s the nominee, I’ll vote for him. But it’s purely anti trump at this time. And it PAINS me to vote for someone I know can’t do the job. Independents (votes we need) are much more likely to stay home.
Just like the debate. Trump did not win any swing voters on Thursday. He probably lost quite a few. But Biden lost even more. And these swing state middle of politics voters aren't going to vote for either or won't show up to the polls at all. Trump did not win Thursday but Biden did lose
100% Both candidates are terrible options in their own ways. This election has become who can “lose less”. We have an opportunity to flip the script. We can nominate someone that can excite not only long discouraged Dems but also pull in independents who are BEGGING for another option.
Down ballot Roe may save a few senate and congressional seats
It hasn't, and most of us know that and know that if he doesn't drop we will lose. The party needs to be loyal to us, not the other way around.
We’ll lose with him. Replacing him is the only chance we have at this point, and I think that would only give the Democrats a 50/50 shot. It’s scary right now.
Biden is not on the ticket until the convention. He's a terrible candidate who has shown signs of a steep and rapid decline, and his camp is still preventing him from having unscripted conversations in public. Rally around Joe and lose or find somebody else and still have a chance in November.
This is incorrect. Biden is the presumptive nominee. The nomination is made at the convention, which hasn’t happened yet.
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They're planning on nominating him in the middle of this month because of the debate shit show...a coronation.
I mean I am just trying to think of everything I would do if I were him and he is doing the exact opposite of it. I would have been on the phone Friday with Congressional leaders and DNC and governors and donors explaining why I performed so bad and reassuring them. I would be sending Harris to the Sunday morning talk shows. I would be scheduling an interview....LIVE on Sunday night. The news cycle was going to be this all week so get ahead of it. I would be meeting with the Democratic caucus at the Capitol and letting them vent and telling them what I was going to do. Instead its the staff doing Zoom conferences and a few campaign rallies on a teleprompter and listening to Jill and Hunter.
the problem is he is physically incapable of doing quite a bit of that
Then he needs to step aside
Exactly. And it’s way too much to script.
Yes, exactly. The key word here is *unscripted*. The fact Biden's team is hesitant to do that and still sequestering him just reinforces doubts and shows he needs to step aside.
Yeah this is what's pissing people off now even more than the debate, sure everyone can have off days but you quickly go back to show your on days to restore confidence, Biden and his team could easily do this with unscripted events right after the debate, town-halls, public appearances to show he still has it. Instead, they're still basically sequestering him away from the public which is stupid. Even editing transcripts where he slips up in speeches from a teleprompter. Sorry, no. Get President Biden out doing daily live interviews and events or step down. And since its clear they're nervous about putting out in public it's time to step down. I don't know what it is he's had leading up to the debate, not convinced it's dementia they're even saying it may have been a bad infection he got after an injury last year but he's not capable now. It's not even about age, I had trainers for my job literally in their *90's* who were sharp as a tack, smart and physically fit, better than even thirtysomethings. And we'll probably see more of that with improved medical tech and discoveries now, they're saying they can do things like stem cells or something to regenerate organs and even brain circuits. But in Biden's *particular case* for some reason or another, he's in much worse shape now and isn't fit to lead. If the debate had been a blip, then he could fix it by just getting out there in unscripted appearances. That his team hesitates to do it is a clear signal he needs to step aside. Bring in Andy Beshear, Mark Kelly, Roy Cooper, heck even Michelle Obama or Corey Booker would demolish Trump. Just stop holding off and do it.
> They warned that Doggett's statement will not be a "one-off" and more members will likely follow his lead if the White House doesn't "start to show that they get it.” Here’s the shot across the bow. This is the worst possible outcome for Biden. It’s not going to be a dam breaking - it’s going to be drip, drip, drip. The longer this goes, the more Biden’s going to bleed support.
Its why I could not believe he wasnt doing a live interview Sunday. The only possible reason is they know he cant do it.
Straight up. There's a room in the White House with cameras rolling at all times. It's near the Oval Office. He could walk in there right now and address the nation to every television and Internet connected device. It sure would help. So...why won't he
He cant. Addressing the nation wouldnt change anything. He needed a semi adversarial reporter asking him questions like
Yeah, the obvious way to remove doubts after the debate and argue it was an off day is.. show it was an off day. Return with a bunch of on days where you're out there, unscripted doing live interviews, or town-halls. Totally obvious solution, especially with the US facing some combination of a potential breakup, fascism or balkanization and a loss of democracy at stake. Yet he and his staff still sequester him. Which shows to all of us.. no it wasn't just an off day.
>The Biden campaign has also emphasized that he is "absolutely not dropping out." Nice. When so many of your constituents and colleagues want you to drop, when you've just had the worst debate performance in the history of televised presidential debates, and when your polling is dropping like a stone in states that Dems haven't lost in over 20 years, this stance really shows that you're in this race for the best interests of the country, Joe.
Yeah I don't believe it. The pressure seems to be mounting still, and if he continues to refuse people are going to get angry and it will just get worse.
Its been five days and he still hasnt talked to Jeffries? I mean WTF? How was he not sitting down for a live interview Sunday morning or on 60 Minutes that night? Fighter my ass.
Yeah it is weird. That is something I read in a comment I think- he says he's not stepping out but what we're seeing from the campaign doesn't support that. Though he is doing an interview on Friday I think?
Yes he has a taped interview on Friday. Not sure when it actually takes place tho. Its taking his campaign that long to prepare him I guess. Unbelievable.
What I read was that his camp hasn’t even spoken to *Harris’* since the debate. It seems like it’s all ego. I will say Harris’ ego is insane too because I did read she’s miffed the conversation immediately went to Whitmer and Newsome without even considering her replacing him
Which, fair, she's the Vice President and his running mate. Any conversation about Biden stepping aside kinda necessarily has to include her. I'd be miffed too
I agree with that! It should be anticipated as the VP to be the one to step up. Easy enough to step directly into the party platform without too many hiccups. However, I think she doesn’t understand how deeply unpopular she is among the electorate. Aside from post-debate, her unfavorable ranking was at least 4-5% points lower than his. I think the only time she’s ever come out on top was post-debate. I think her issue is lack of charisma. She never has been able to shake her years of prosecutorial work. She was/is a talented prosecutor (noting that I DO NOT agree with a big portion of it) but that kind of position requires you to be whip-smart and tough as nails at all times. Sometimes the nation needs a kinder hand and even when she’s joking around she comes off condescending. I would love a female president, I would love a president of color, I would love a queer president. *IF* we’re heading towards a candidate swap this close to election, then I have to think something that I believe to be very controversial and that goes against every belief of mine. Two straight white dudes. If we’re switching this close we need to avoid every horrible misogynist, racist, and homophobe. It’s horrible to think, it’s horrible to say, and horrible to even type out. We understand the voting electorate and their biases. I say this as a queer man. I like Kamala but I don’t think she’d win. Especially because this is now the only time her favorability has surpassed his. The data is all there. She has the Uniqueness, Nerve, and Talent. She’s just missing the Charisma.
He was exhausted from the debate
For 6 days?
He had jet lag for two weeks after returning from Europe.....apparently a two day trip to his beach house then a trip to Camp David where he was sleeping till 11am and then taking a nap every day wasnt enough.
Did you mean to reply to a different comment originally? My comment was about his camp and Kamala’s not speaking since the debate
Yeah that's just not excusable. He's also been refusing to talk with the governors. Or with Pelosi or Schumer. When something like that debate happens the first thing that comes up is getting a move on to remove doubts, make the calls and meet with your people, get out there and campaign in unscripted events. Not a good look when you're still sequestering away from that.
His campaign has just let that debate performance sit there for a week.
Yeah at this point the only thing can think of he's giving that line publicly about staying in, maybe to give a few extra days for Dems to pick a successor but even his insiders know it's time to step aside. He's completely lost the support even of senior Democrats and close friends now and still refusing to do unscripted, public events to restore confidence. Because even his inner circle he's in too bad a shape to keep going. So the Dems are maybe figuring out the next steps, maybe meeting up in Kentucky or Arizona with Andy Beshear or Mark Kelly or whoever they have in mind to succeed Biden now in a short anti primary, just pick someone the base and major Dems will rally around and move with.
Not to mention his remarks yesterday essentially stating he will not act any differently in light of the Supreme Court ruling even though he knows Trump will.
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He can literally just transfer his campaign funds to a PAC created to support the Dem candidate. Or transfer the money to the DNC.
Yeah don't know why so many Redditors are making this thing sound so complicated. There are systems in place to transfer power, nominations and funding in unexpected events, after all a nominee could for all kinds of reasons not be able to continue. Of course they have means to hand over positions and funding, bylaws specific for that.
I'd take my chances on any elected Dem with $0 over Biden with all of King Midas' gold.
The war chest is pointless. Biden/Harris could spend every dime of that money twice over and it still wouldn't move the needle. Biden's brain is no longer functioning at a capacity required to do the job only hardcore Democrats will vote for a dementia patient. The hard truth is that hardcore Democrats aren't spread out enough to overcome the Electoral College. Running negative ads will have zero effect on Trump. Running positive ads is not going to make independent voters and wayward republican voters turn out for Biden.
Source? This suggests otherwise: https://theconversation.com/when-presidential-campaigns-end-what-happens-to-the-leftover-money-130042
This makes no mention of incumbent Presidents which is the topic in question. Feel free to peruse the FEC’s regs.
There’s a lot of those people around these days
Same tired lines.
This literally isn’t true
This is the worst possible outcome. The events of the last week cannot be undone. If Biden attempts to stay after the party did everything possible to throw him out it will be a travesty of epic proportions. The Democrats cannot let up the pressure. They cannot accept that he will “shake things up.” Cannot just go back to their comfort zone with him. There’s no going back it’s all or nothing, he’s got to go now no matter what.
It's just a stutter, and he had a cold, and he was tired from traveling. He doesn't have dementia You guys are the conspiracy theorists now!
This burying your head in your sand is not productive
Tired from traveling, after spending a week at Camp David resting. If my guy needs **more** than a week of rest before a two hour debate... They ain't up for the job.
Two weeks, even. It was like 11 or 12 days since he flew back from Europe. No case of jetlag lasts that long. But it's even worse because now it's sounding like Biden got it in his head, he *did* get back just a couple days before the debate. He couldn't even recall he'd been in the US for 12 days before that!
Media propaganda works on everyone, including Democrats.
I can’t tell if this is serious or not but if it is, it really does not matter what the reason is. Nobody cares. Biden is plummeting so hard Dems are now losing New Jersey and New Hampshire. The Biden campaign is dead, now it is just a matter of if he will take the party down with him and how to move on.
Signs of his apparent dementia have been growing more frequent and more severe for a year, and maybe you have not seen them because you are perhaps in a left-wing echo chamber. Whatever is wrong with him looks like dementia to most people, and the debate confirmed it. He may recover from his "cold" but he will not recover from the picture of himself he has been painting for the past year. We need a new and viable candidate.
His debate performance did not inspire confidence. It was cringy to see these two old men debate about a fucking golf handicap. Both are out of touch.
I still can't believe its the Biden camp in meltdown and not the RNC. Good Laaaawwwd....GIVE US A CANDIDATE WITH COGNITIVE ABILITIES!!!!
The lowest of bars, too. We’re just asking for someone who can form coherent thoughts in response to Trump’s bullshit. Apparently that’s impossible.
Democrats doing what they do best, shooting themselves on the foot. Republicans may shoot at the hip but it’s currently working
For sure. If the Republican Party wasn’t full of incompetents we’d be in real trouble. I always get a lot a shit for saying it, but McConnell will go down in history as being one of the most effective US politicians. That ratfuck accomplished so much of his agenda over his career.
Democrats enabled him because they refused to fight him like he fought them because “when they go low, we go high” got us where we are today
Oh I agree
The only small joy I get from the absolute fucking unprecedented disaster another Trump presidency will be is that McConnell is a target and will suffer explicitly because of the machinations he put into place. I mean, we will still all be going down on the ship but hey, at least we get one middle finger to the pricks that sunk us.
Pin the fail on the donkey.
Calling on him to drop out with no one in the wings just seems nonsensical in July. That's just a party committing seppuku. UNHELPFUL: "Biden should drop out." HELPFUL: "Biden should drop out and we are prepared to run _____ instead."
Dude everyone's talking about who to replace him with. Internal dem polling just released showing that Buttigieg, Whitmer, Newsom, and Harris all perform better than him in a general election, in that order. But no matter who replaces him, the one thing that is currently certain is that Biden needs to drop out so we can begin the process to find a replacement.
> But no matter who replaces him, the one thing that is currently certain is that Biden needs to drop out so we can begin the process to find a replacement. Respectfully, I would argue that this person needs to be selected and ready to hit the ground before Biden calls it quits. The chaos of a week or even a day without a clear nominee would cause immeasurable pandemonium.
The pandemonium is already here, triggered by "we finally beat Medicare" last Thursday.
Yeah guessing that's what's going on now. That even may be the reason why Biden hasn't yet publicly announced he's stepping down, they're making giving the Dem leaders a few more days to figure out succession quietly, behind the closed doors.
Andy Beshear too, he's the Democratic governor of ultra-red *Kentucky*, of all places won twice there, super popular, the guy speaks smooth as Reagan did so not a concern about having good delivery. The polling of alternatives is hard just because of name recognition, most Americans won't know those other names and that would be irrelevant once they're nominated--their names would become known right away. But Beshear seems to check all the boxes on the type of Democrat who can sweep through swing states and just dismantle Trump in debates and on campaign trail.
Beshear/Whitmer
Newsom
Why is it always Newsom? The Governor of California isn’t going to make any inroads where we need them. Also, he just gives off sleazebag vibes. Whitmer/Booker is the ticket for me. Whitmer is sufficiently distant from the Biden administration, she’s from the Midwest, and hopefully she’s without major skeletons. Booker is a whip smart seasoned Senator who can talk himself out of a paper bag and can also help to assuage the Clyburns of the world who will cry racism if Harris is replaced.
Just let everyone who wants to run make their case then. At least give them a chance besides Biden.
Or Beshear, from Kentucky, not only strong in swing states but even puts red states into play, not just in Kentucky. Church going and comes off as strong and personable. Have some family in Michigan and there's still some grumbling about how the covid lock-downs went too far there, not sure what to believe but maybe that would be an issue in some of the Midwest in a Whitmer campaign. While Beshear doesn't have any such baggage and comes off as incredible popular. Or maybe Mark Kelly from Arizona, closest we have to real life case of a classic true American hero and patriot.
it’s either harris or they run another primary , i don’t see another way to make it look even somewhat legit otherwise.
The way they make it look legit is by getting Biden to treat the new ticket like he birthed it himself. Offer Harris AG and thank her for her service. I’m a Pete Buttigieg fan but I think anyone in the administration is toxic at this point - it has to be someone outside the administration but within that group of the “new crop” of Democratic Party leaders being speculated about (so that the name doesn’t come out of nowhere).
still a bad look though. why would people trust biden to put forward another candidate for presidency though when he already chose harris as his number 2. It would make people question his judgement; why would he put someone else in to replace him in the event of medical issues when harris was already selected for that. It would look ridiculous.
Because of the political realities of the situation. Harris would be tarred with all of the things people don’t like about the Biden administration and will also have to face questions about why she just cackled herself around the country knowing the President was not fit to serve (as we will continue to hear more about in the coming weeks). Combined with her tepid popularity, lack of ability to connect with the general public, her non-existent political identity, and her own proclivity for nonsensical ramblings, it makes her a complete nonstarter. Unfortunately, it seems like she’s as delusional as Team Biden.
it doesn’t matter about what people think of her or her joe biden’s administration ; she’s the vice president and that’s her role. they can’t just pick someone out of a hat without it looking extremely strange and undemocratic. The only way the dnc can get away with dropping biden is by having kamala substitute him because biden is basically dead already.
How is that her role? Biden could swap her out for Trisha Paytas if he wanted to. As Selina Meyer put it: “being Vice President is like being sealed in an abandoned coal mine under two miles of human shit”. Kamala Harris has no mandate independent of Biden’s intentions for even a second VP term, never mind becoming the Democratic nominee. But the thing I disagree with the most is that “it doesn’t matter what people think of her”. That’s what matters the most. There are no rules - this is a politics; she didn’t meet the moment and spent the last 3.5 years doing God knows what, and now people don’t see her as a viable alternative.
Inquiry: "cackled"?
Cackle v. make a harsh, raucous sound when laughing
That doesn't sound like a mode of moving, still seems a nonsequitor.
It helps to get Biden to agree to step down first, before other loyal democrats to step up. It is a bad look for his replacement to go after him directly. He needs to step down so others can step up and look like heros, not back stabbers.
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This needs to stop. He didn’t debate well against someone whole lied through their teeth and didn’t answer any of the questions. Yes he is old. Maybe too old. What do people want 4 more years of the at the worst the status quo and the chance at someone else, or trump forever?
It’s more than just the debate. This over-defense of Biden is MAGA level of delusion. If Biden runs, Trump wins. Blanket statement. End of story.
This shit is unironically pissing me off. The lack of loyalty or respect is shameful shit. Republicans rallied around trump through his criminal trials
Biden should have dropped out a year ago, and let us have primaries. He's put his party in an awful position.
leave it to obiden to eff errything up. -obama
I see you're already getting dogpiled but yeah... Republicans shouldn't have rallied around Trump when he was a criminal and Democrats shouldn't rally around Biden when he's incapable.
>Republicans rallied around trump through his criminal trials That's a bad thing, not a good thing. "People should be loyal to Biden regardless of whether he's a good choice as a candidate" is wrong
Aging and being beat =/= trying to overthrow the govt and facing charges. Yet they are showing more willingness to support their guy than the dems.
> Yet they are showing more willingness to support their guy than the dems. Yeah, because they want to win and be in power and don't care how that happens.
Exactly - and if the democrats and/or Biden showed some of *that* maybe we wouldn’t be having this conversation at all right now.
Because they plan on installing autocracy in the USA. Meanwhile they are thrilled right now. If Biden stays in he is getting killed by this dissension in the party. If he is replaced they get to run against a last second replacement installed by the party three months before the election. The best route here was rallying around Joe but they blew that so I guess we’ll just have to hope the GOP doesn’t fuck the country up to bad in 2025
Yea man the best course of action was to rally around a candidate that is incapable of functioning past 4pm and is also currently getting crushed in internal polling. 👍
You don't get to be president because it's owed to you. You fucking earn it and if you can't prove you're the best you're out. Simple. No one owes him shit when another Trump presidency is the alternative. Internal polls have him losing every single swing state as well as previously assumed safe states. He's done.
And yet, when election day comes and if he's still on the ballot - you better believe all the anti-trumpers had best vote for him.
Some of them won't. And that will be enough to lose the election.
You'd think 2016 would have taught them the error of that.
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And the few who did wade the waters of public Trump criticism, came back into the fold with their tails between their legs, and whiplash from their breakneck 180’s. Graham, Cruz, Rubio, McCarthy et. al.
Trump is definitely not their best chance. He kills them with anyone near the center.
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Oh in that case yeah I agree
Yeah, well, the Democratic party isn't a fucking cult.
That's because the Republicans have a personality cult built up around Dear Leader. Their sticking by him during his trials was not a *good* thing.
On a basic transactional level, what does the Democratic Party currently stand to gain with loyalty to Biden?
Continuity of government. If Biden announces he's not running, any and all political initiatives that his administration is pursuing will halt while everyone tries to cozy up to the new guy. He'll be yesterday's news - he'll have his formal authority but little influence.
Your point, stated another way: "Republicans rallied around Trump even though he obviously shouldn't be president." And you want Democrats to also do that?
That’s not my point. My point is the dems won’t rally around their candidate facing adversity but the GOP will.
I have no loyalty to any politician. None whatsoever. What I want is for good people to get elected who will make the country better, and Biden is not getting elected.
And who do you think is? You install Whitmer this late in the game, no name recognition, after forcing Joe out in front of the whole country, do you really think she’s winning? Hell no. That’s delusional and you need to disabuse yourself of that moronic notion asap
No point in arguing with these people. They legit think the entire country knows who whitmer and newsom are lmao. Most people vote off name recognition alone.
Exactly my thoughts
> That’s not my point. Your point is irrelevant.
I disagree.
To me it's really up to knowing if Biden is up to it mentally. If we had confirmation that he's indeed healthy and perfectly fine and he had a bad night, then we should rally around him. But if he does have early signs of cognitive decline confirmed, he should be replaced. Not just to win an election. But also on an ethical level. Rolling out a guy on the campaign trail who half the time is confused about what he's doing just because they think he has the best odds at beating Trump is simply inhumane.
> loyalty Loyalty? You feel like it's loyal to lie to people about the president's capability? Why should we be loyal towards dishonesty? Respect people who respect you.
Nobody in the United States owes Biden loyalty or respect. Fuck him, he needs to get out of the way before he dementias us all into fascism.
The party does. After a lifetime of service and saving us from trump in 2020
A lifetime of being a rich career politician and threatening to doom us to Trump in 2024.
If that’s how you see it we have nothing more to talk about. Enjoy losing to trump after replacing the presumptive nominee a scant few months before the election, after not having them on the campaign trail.
they guy was already president for four years and vice president for 8 and a senator before that for many years. Seriously , no one owes him anything . he’s in his 80s and is having signs of serious mental deterioration. he’s had a full life already and he has already fulfilled his duty as president. it’s time to wave that ship goodbye and just fucking retire already.
I have very little loyalty or respect for Biden. I voted for him because *not Trump*, not for any other reason. Among numerous other issues I have, at least the biggest one is he got into office and utterly failed at the most important job, dealing with the fascists. Making Merrick Garland AG was possibly the stupidest decision in American history and it's why Trump is still running around right now, with the next coup attempt lined up. And looks like Trump may not even need another coup at this point. I'll vote for Biden again because I'm not a complete idiot. But there are unfortunately a lot of complete idiots out there. But loyalty? respect? Nope. None.
I guess we’re different. I have always liked joe Biden.
Why be loyal to a candidate who’s guaranteed to lose in a landslide and completely destroy our democracy? And all because he’s stubbornly staying in for no other reason than ego (or rather Jill and Hunter’s egos, now that we know that Hunter’s a WH regular and Biden’s top advisor!)
And Trump isn't trying to destroy our democracy?! But GOP fools carry water for him, but we can't stand behind the decent but old dude?!?
What loyalty has Biden showed to democrats this past week? He had a melt down on Thursday and his campaign is aggressively attacking any democrat showing concern and is expecting everyone to lie through their teeth about his condition and throw away their credibility. They don’t even think he owes his party an explanation for what’s going on. That isn’t loyalty or respect, it goes both ways
They shouldn’t have, though
Because we are concerned that the literal president could hardly form a sentence, all of a sudden we're just supposed to be like, yeah that's fine?! We're not sheep, man. See, that's what they do. We need someone to push the agenda, to wake up in the middle of the night and be prepared to make some hard calls, not get flustered and need a week of prep to debate the dumbest piece of trash that's ever tried to politic. Joe Biden is a career politician, he's been doing this for like 50 years. If he can't debate someone like Trump who LITERALLY only said "immigrants are coming!!" Like 40 times and answered NOTHING that he was asked, then he doesn't get to play. He needs to step aside, plain and simple.
Screw loyalty dude, we're at risk of losing the election because of this mentality.
We’re actually at risk of losing because the party is tearing itself apart out in the open instead of rallying around joe. That’s just my opinion but it really does feel that is the case
The party is tearing itself apart because leadership is desperately trying to pretend that a five alarm fire is just a smokey burner on the stove. Everybody except for the most doggedly partisan die-hards can see that a new candidate is needed ASAP and no amount of shrieking about how everyone should just respect the fact that a senile old man thinks protecting his ego is more important than serving the country he is supposed to be leading will change that.
The difference is MAGA is a cult that worships Trump and loves his flaws. If both candidates ate a live baby on stage then Biden's supporters would flip out and declare they want a candidate that does not eat babies. Trump's people would say Trump did not eat a baby, Biden did, and besides, the baby that Trump ate deserved it because it was a liberal trans immigrant baby. Then they would pass out recipes for cooking liberal babies.