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So many people miss the real issue here. This election will be decided by 75,000 to 200,000 voters in several swing states (PA MI WI AZ GA). That’s it. Do you think his age / performance is going to motivate voters in those states? And will the campaign be able to get high turnout in those states? If not, he needs to be replaced immediately.
This. It's not democrat and never trumpers that need convincing, they're gonna vote for whoever is the Dem nom, no matter who it is. It's those swing state voters, and Dems demanding everyone vote for Biden are doing the same mistake they made back in 2016, ignoring how stupid voters truly are and thinking those individuals will vote for Biden, even though many are already thinking of writing a name in or not voting this time.
> Do you think his age / performance is going to motivate voters in those states?
What you need to worry about is "demotivating" voters, and/or influencing "double-haters."
Most people already know who they're going to vote for and are not going to change their minds.
The election (supposedly) will be won/lost based on turnout of low-propensity voters and which way double-haters (a sub-section of independents) break.
I think Biden needs to drop out (and resign). If it's going to be kamala running, let her do it as pres.
This is how the comments go:
Resign and make Kamala president.
Make Kamala work for nomination.
Biden leaves race but doesn’t resign.
I’m sure the replacement process at the convention will go so smoothly.
It's a political party nominating a candidate. When she tried to get the nomination herself she got stomped. No way should she be the candidate because if she went through the same process again the same thing would happen. This "process" you speak of is just some shit the elitist leaders of the party made up to protect their own power.
No one is calling for that. Literally no one.
What they are calling for is for Biden to finish out his term but to officially announce asap that he is stepping down from running for reelection and (preferably) call for an open convention.
The biggest probably technical issue is actually the campaign money for next cycle he has already collected. There are rules about what he can and can’t do with it and its significant enough it needs to be addressed.
Yes it will absolutely cost him far more than the amount this election will be decided by
There is no fucking question, and all of the dem establishment attempts to bury their heads in the sand, and "true dem" pissing contests will change that.
Agreed - personally, I was feeling pretty good about Biden. I don’t watch every single speech, but he looked very solid in the State of the Union.
The debate was a disaster and the Stephanopoulos interview wasn’t much better.
I don’t really give a shit personally - I think his administration could be good for another 4 years, despite his age. But I think that it could affect swing states and that’s all that matters.
I'm not sure how many people feel this way but I was generally worried about his age last year. At the State of the Union, he was still holding it together, but really had to make an effort. My worst fears were realized at the debate.
I've been worried since he won the nomination. I've been involved in caring for all my grandparents and several other elderly relatives, what they say about everything going to shit when you reach 80 is true. Some people don't decline as fast as others, but they all start to have physical and cognitive issues. When you add in the stress of Biden's job, it really was stupid for him to run in 2020, let alone to think he could run again.
I'll vote for him if it comes to that, but JFC this feels like elder abuse.
With all the concerns about not being able to change him on the ballot in misc states, it makes me wonder if the new tactic would be "Vote for Biden, he'll resign after he wins, and we'll get Kamela Harris for President then".
It’s right wing bullshit (that blue MAGA likes too). The Trump campaign wants to face Biden. Sure, they’ll file frivolous legal challenges in a bunch of States that will get shot down just like nearly all their frivolous law suits filed everywhere.
If Biden steps down in the next few weeks, his replacement will be on the ballot.
Biden didn't age 10 year overnight. His mental decline was obvious for a long time before the debate but when people pointed it out they were called right wing shills for it.
Hopefully this conversation is the party moving in a more healthy direction
These conversations are important, and it’s disappointing they weren’t warranted before
Yup. I was telling people that there were realistic concerns about his coherency just months before the debate and was downvoted and handwaved away.
Now it seems like half the Democrats are panicking because they can't ignore it anymore.
> when people pointed it out they were called right wing shills for it.
This is still happening a lot on this sub. They also think everyone who thinks we can do better than Biden is a bot. Blue Maga is real
Its more funny to see the shocked faces here to be honest. I thought the debate went ok since I already knew that they were both old fart(and one is a crazy old fart). Everyone telling me how shocked they were that Biden was so old the next day made me realize how delulu 90% of the people on this sub is.
I was oblivious to Biden’s age. I haven’t been on this sub-Reddit since the election, but hopped back on after the disastrous debate. I was shocked he was chasing another term at 81. I’m 72…maybe that explains it. I’ll see myself out … maybe.
You mean astroturfing as in Democrats like me who got a bad feeling when Biden first said he was running for re-election because there were huge questions about him being too old the last time, but got behind him because we wanted to beat Trump and a contested primary involving a sitting president always critically wounds that president and dooms their re-election? But that support was always thin and was contingent on him being able to beat Trump, and now that it's clear he can't we're in no mood to go down with the ship with him into the briny depths of fascism, and would rather have someone who can actually win while there's still a chance to switch him out?
His approval ratings were mired in the 30s and he was behind in most battleground state polling even before the debate. He needed the debate to turn the race around, to give Americans assurance he could handle four more years. He did the opposite and pushed a losing race even further towards Trump. If swing state voters weren't convinced to back him before, they sure aren't getting on board now that they'll be flooded with attack ads and memes showing Biden staring gape-mouthed into the void and proclaiming that we beat Medicare from now until election day.
I backed H Clinton over Trump, but privately screamed, “why is it so close?!?” against frick’n Donald J Trump the whole campaign season.
What was with her uninspiring “fight to keep the status quo?” People were ok with the status quo but they wanted better. She actively fought against “better.” Who does that?
Biden is doing something similar, but the status quo isn’t about policy it is about his stamina and energy. Most people were ok with his performance over the last four years but want something better for the next four.
Biden is actively fighting against that better, which means he is taking us to the same result.
Plus the fact that Democrats were lying to us about the president's health for months (**and still are**) . This practically begs for congressional hearings and the Republicans would be not only right but proper to spend the months leading up to the election screaming about the issue
We've handed them our balls on a f*cking platter
It’s not astroturfing for the most part. A lot of it is probably people like me who are scared of another Trump term. 2020 was closer than it looks and we see some people have Trumpstolga. There are also people who have 2016 flashbacks of Hillary being unpopular yet expected to win. I like Biden, I voted for him in the primaries this year to show my support. However, I’m terrified that he scared away enough swing voters and apathethic voters with his debate performance and now there are countless memes of him being a senile old man. He showed he was capable at the SotU, but his debate and interview was the exact opposite.
The thing is, this was foreseeable a year ago when people were pushing for a primary but the line of the Democratic establishment, as well as many people on this subreddit, was “a primary will weaken Biden and he’s our only chance to beat Trump”.
I think the notion that only Biden could have beaten Trump in 2020 was unfounded, and the idea that he was still a strong candidate was always a stretch even last year. By refusing to allow democracy to happen within the Democratic Party, they have now set up an even more precarious situation with little time to course correct.
Mexican American, second generation immigrant, female in my 30’s and I don’t want anymore kids.
I’m fucking terrified.
I wasn’t in the country for Trumps term. I hate living outside the US. This is my home. I have rights here. This is my country and I’m proud of what it used to stand for, before MAGA asshole took Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness and made it into something else.
I don’t want to live anywhere else but here. I’ve seen and lived thru what it’s like to not have any rights and be a second class citizen. It sucks. It’s dehumanizing. And I would never want to see that happen to my beautiful country.
This is not astroturfing. This is the culmination of ignoring what your base wants and lying to them for decades.
The debate seems to be the straw that broke the camel’s back for a lot of people. They’re angry and embarrassed. Those are very strong emotions. And the bad part for Biden is that all those feelings are 100% justifiable.
Given that there huge numbers of not Trump voters, Democrats should be running with someone who has 55% total approval rating in battle states. I think that's is possible.
I’m really pissed by the people on here who claim that anyone worried about Biden’s fitness must be a bot or astroturfer. I’m from the Midwest, and literally everyone I know from every age demographic and income level thinks that Biden is a vegetable and is contemplating staying home.
While I agree, Biden's approval ratings and his swing state polling shows that this is not the prevailing sentiment. We need to give swing voters someone they can be excited to vote for or we're going to lose.
I guess we're just defining astroturfing as whatever you disagree with.
Much easier than accepting there are opinions other than your own that people agree with en mass.
It's stressing me out so much, not gonna lie. To mitigate it, I've started dipping into smaller subs. seeing the vast majority of users have normal takes and call out the astroturfers is helping a lot.
His debate performance was astounding.
It's hard to express the shock both my wife and I felt watching it. She had to leave the room multiple times. It was like watching a really scary horror movie.
Yeah. It's been wild to watch this sub go, from weeks of "Trump dementia, Trump sundowning, Trump will skip the debate because he's a coward" to. "Biden dementia, Biden sundowning, Biden should pass the torch because he's too old."
And I get it, I do. People may want a younger candidate, but a younger candidate will have a different set of problems. The DNC absolutely will not pick whoever these people may have in mind. Also the last time the DNC chose a candidate for us, it was disasterous.
I'm doubtful Biden will step down, and I hope but am not hopeful Biden will turn this weakness back into a strength or otherwise mitigate it.
Biden already is the DNC's chosen candidate. That's why people beating him dropped out and endorsed him in 2020, and why there were no meaningful primary challengers this time around.
But yes, their choice is shaping up to be a disaster for this election.
People keep wanting a different candidate but have yet to put forward and legitimate candidate. It's easy to say I want someone else but much harder to find someone that would actually win at this point this late in the process.
As a president Biden has been pretty effective policy wise. Frankly I'm more worried about trump and his 2025 cronies.
> much harder to find someone that would actually win at this point this late in the process.
Which is why if they presented Biden as a one term bridge candidate, it would have allowed a younger person a head start getting their name in the national conversation. Then have Biden pass the torch when the person announced their candidacy.
That would have avoided a lot of talk about Biden’s mental health, as the focus right now would have been on the candidate. Biden could stumped with canned speeches.
Not really. We saw the debate and found out we've been lied to and now there is a huge chance for trump to win when he should have easily been defeated.
Lol that's the problem! He was supposed to turn this shit around with the debate and instead made it worse. He's losing. If the status quo doesn't change between now and November, it's game over. And what is still on the calendar to mix things up?
My favorite is whenever there’s a story about some high level leaders being impressed by how coherent he is- inevitably at a meeting behind closed doors with no video.
And worse yet, to overcome the Republican advantage of the electoral college, Biden realistically needs to be ahead by about 5 points nationally (factoring trumps tendency to outperform polls). So if we're down 2 points now, we realistically need to make up 7 points. I don't see Biden doing that
[Nate Silver's election model](https://www.natesilver.net/p/nate-silver-2024-president-election-polls-model) predicts a Republican electoral college advantage of only ~2% this election. If Biden gets between 4% and 5% of the popular vote, he has a 97.7% to win the electoral college.
they may win the battle of who the candidate is, but they lost the war. biden lost biden after the debate and it was arguably his most needed win
edit: biden lost pa
He's made it worse. He sounds like a completely different person from the one that gave the last state of the union address. His post interviews do not differ much from the debate.
As dangerous and disjointed as Trump is, he appears coherent to the average voter. Biden does not.
Average Americans and independents do not follow politics as closely as people in this sub. They do not understand the existential threat to democracy that exists with Trump. They do not understand complex issues like inflation or the economy.
He’s spent the whole week trying to convince dems to continue to let him run. He needs to be convincing swing voters to vote for him which he’s incapable of doing because his diminished speaking capacity only allows him to do like a 15 minute scripted speech before dinner time
There is apparently another debate scheduled for Sept, but that's after the convention, so he'll be the nominee then and they would get Harris for Pres then.
If dropping out is the right thing, he has to do it before the convention otherwise it would be bad.
And frankly, given his over-the-top loyalty (like to Garland), even if he was going to drop out, he'd do it so that he can guarantee Harris gets the top slot instead of being passed over.
Battleground independents, undecided, never Trumpers and double hater voters: "No, I will decide what I think is best and that includes staying home."
The election in a nutshell.
Pretty much every election. The GOP is generally smaller but has a huge voting turnout percentage, regardless of candidate.
The Dem base is bigger, and will usually vote party lines as well, but getting them actually to vote is the challenge.
And then you have like 40-50% of the voting populace that is tuned out and the challenge there is information and getting them to actually vote/care at all.
Dems always have to he chasing that apathetic group of their own base as the "independents". But half the time they end up trying to appeal to "sane" GOP rather than focusing on that enormous other group.
Honestly I’m now more put off by this stuff than the original incident.
Especially the interview comment regarding it all going horribly wrong and we loosing our democracy “well at least I know I tried my best”. 😣
I want a change now even more.
Will I still vote for him if I have to. Absolutely. But not everyone realizes the real dangers and may not.
It pisses me off that this is the exact road they are taking, again. Just being condescending assholes and ignoring what their voters actually want. I don’t think it’s going to go over well for them this time. If they continue to dig in on this it’s going to completely obliterate whatever trust their voters have left.
It will just like 2016 when Hillary supporters (or bots, who knows, but there wasn't any push back from other Hillary supporters) constantly told Bernie supports they didn't need or want their votes in the general. And then when Hillary lost it was suddenly the BernieBro's fault for not supporting her, instead of you know, the terrible campaign she ran.
Far too often I feel like the DNC leadership actively seeks to lose elections/ policy issues so that they can send some really dramatic fundraising emails
I found it interesting listening to an interview with Savid Blunkett, a fomer Labour Home Secretary in the UK, on the rest is politics podcast. He remarked how Labours 1997 victory came about because they ditched the old paternalism that so dominates the left at times. I think the democrats biggest problem right now is that they too have become dominated by paternalism, and people dont like that
Are they though? The weekend has had more high profile sitting dems calling for him (nicely) to bow out. Congress is coming back from recess this week. The calls are getting louder and louder, not quieter. Once congress is back in session, it's going to get even more urgent.
> It pisses me off that this is the exact road they are taking, again
I don't think it is a "they" issue unless you mean Biden's advisors. State law and party rules mean that Biden IS the nominee unless he chooses to step aside. I think party leaders are panicking right now.
Everyone in the upper end of the democratic circle knew the state Biden’s in. You aren’t skipping the Super Bowl interview for 2 years without leadership calling g you why you’re not doing a softball event that has millions of people watching.
This entire mess could have been easily avoided if not for the selfishness of certain people.
I honestly think the DNC has itself to blame for this whole fiasco. They have made their entire identity being "it's either Trump or us" to the point that they'll [even boost extremist candidates to make the threat more real](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/13/us/politics/moreno-trump-democrats-ohio.html). I get the feeling that democracy is at stake because Democrats are willing to put anything on the table to win.
"Vote blue no matter who!"
Those who are going to do that are doing that regardless, but they still think that preaching to the choir wins elections despite so much evidence to the contrary.
He is old but the debate is far and away the worst he has ever looked. John Gartner brought on a geriatrician onto his podcast - and she said there is no way someone with dementia could look that bad one night, and then go out and perform well the next day. In her patients, conditions like that are almost always caused by medications. She went into further detail that medicines that block nerve receptors have a tendency to cause cognitive issues in geriatric people that take them. Her example was benadryl might make a young person drowsy, but for a person in their 80s it might cause outright confusion. So her suggestion was that Biden add a geriatrician to his medical team so they understand how common medications can have profound side effects on someone Biden's age and know to avoid them.
Democracy is at stake and if this old dementia ridden man doesn't drop out he still gets my vote. Because democracy is at stake and I would rather vote for this old man who at least surrounds himself with decent human beings than the crazy megalomaniac who literally wants to be king. It's still the choice of a lesser of two evils. And I'll take old and senile over old and crazy any day.
I said in advance that I would be watching with my hands over my eyes. I was afraid of him looking bad, and flubbing some facts, but never expected anything as bad as what happened. And yeah, the dems have zero credibility right now for trying to hide this.
>And yeah, the dems have zero credibility right now for trying to hide this.
This very much seems to be an "inner circle" problem rather than a general Dem problem. Hell, even the GOP was shouting "he's gonna be on drugs!" so the fact that nobody saw this coming is on Biden and whatever handful of people has been responsible for keeping himself insulated. The fact that the rest of the Dems now have to do the PR and the positive spin is just having to take a bite out of the shit sandwich Biden's team made.
This sub was definitely downvoting any person showing concern towards Biden's cognitivity until the comment was hidden, right up until the debate. Most Democrats aren't willing to entertain criticism until they have no other choice.
If he was meeting them during his good hours and only for around 20 minutes, I'd say they probably just thought any gaffe they saw was just him being old.
Plus in another leak it was revealed that unless they were top leadership, no one has really been allowed to see him for the last 6months.
My grandma is sundowning. I mostly only saw her during the day and when she would make a mistake I just thought she getting old. Then I saw her a couple of times in the evening. She was so out of it. But even then it took me a couple of months before I asked my dad if he'd noticed her acting different. Then after that it took even more time for us to tell my mom we didn't think she was OK. So I can definitely see lawmakers that didn't see him often, and only during his good hours, dismissing anything they saw as him just aging.
The leaks we've been getting from anonymous sources inside the whitehouse since the debates would seem to point that the top Dems were as blindsided by the debate performance as everyone else was.
Counterpoint is the WSJ article from early June. I tend to dismiss the WSJ but this appears to have been accurate, and I can't imagine Dems not having more knowledge than the WSJ.
Denying a real primary is the source of all these problems. If Biden won a real primary which would’ve been possible if everyone threw in their hats and split the anti Biden vote no one would be asking him to step aside. We would’ve had our chance and everyone would be uniting behind him regardless of his mental condition even after a disastrous debate. The lack of a primary is what’s releasing all this pent up frustration. This anger isn’t just about the debate. It’s about the gaslighting of his condition and telling voters who’ve wanted an alternative to go fuck themselves
Do a poll that asks if his age is going to affect your vote this November for me the answer is yeah he's old and I'm voting for him, if God forbid something happens at any point Kamala is the new president and THANK GOD. How is it even a question when the alternative is open facism at worst and a horrible economy at best.
> The problem is that a lot of his supporters and most undecideds had concerns already, and the debate confirmed and magnified those concerns.
This is the #1 reason why people (especially Biden) need to stop saying "it was one bad night." No, it was one night so bad that nobody could deny it any longer.
> The other problem is that even "little change" is not anything he can afford given he was already losing.
Yep, this is the problem I see too. He was already behind because he was (unfairly, in my opinion) getting the blame for global inflation. Then you had the concerns about his age and mental state. So, he really needed to stick the landing on that debate to put those fears to rest.
Instead he made everything so much worse that members of his own party are asking him to step aside. I don't see how he can recover from that. If he stays in, his best hope is that he loses by 3 or 4 points instead of 6+ now. Trying to minimize the damage to downballot races is all he can really do. I'd prefer he steps aside for someone with a fighting chance, at least.
I've been worried about Biden's chances since inflation got really bad, honestly. Although he didn't start it, the situation is tailor-made for a Republican to seize on it. Unfortunately, that Republican is the grossly unfit, hatemongering Donald J. Trump.
The irony is that the term should be Trumpflation.
Covid plus Trump equaled inflation.
Biden inherited it and got blamed.
If God forbid Trump wins in November, he'll end up getting credit for everything Biden did to try and tamper it down.
Then Trump will destroy everything again but by the time those chickens come home to roost someone else (provided there *is* a someone else afterward) will inherit the blame again.
He's polling 12 points lower on head-to-head against Trump versus 4 years ago - and aggregates have *underestimated* Trump in both elections he ran in.
So yeah - "little change" is not good news. It's terrifying. He needs to improve his numbers drastically, and there doesn't seem to be any real plan to do so.
This should not be a close race! Dems should be leading Trump by double digits! The reason they’re not is because they have a weak candidate whose biggest weakness is only getting worse by the day.
The debate showed us that Biden is old and Trump is evil. Perhaps the next debate will include something about the wetness of water. Then we can poll people's new beliefs about water.
Anyone being shocked by Biden being old as shit has just had their heads in the sand for the passed 6 years. I'm more shocked by the people shocked by the shit show of the debate. I didn't even want Biden in 2020, but I voted. And his cabinet has done good, I'll vote again. If he dies in office, pretty much nothing will change because it's the same ones running the show with him anyway.
June 25th:
>Progressive: But Biden has mentally declined over the years and it might result in a risky election.
>Democrats: How dare you!
June 27th:
>Democrats: Why didnt anyone tell me Biden was so incoherent!?!?
I don't know, it's almost funny how Democrats are continually blindsided after ignoring progressives' criticisms over the years. They criticized Hillary's FBI investigation and they're criticizing Biden's age; maybe they can see things that blindly loyal people can't see.
"Little has changed?" Are you fucking kidding me? He was too old then, there were better candidates in 2020. The presidency ages you far faster than almost any other job in politics. You can watch videos of him in 2012, 2016 and 2020. The difference is huge. And he seemed old 4, 8 and 12 years ago. This is such fucking cope from Biden's campaign.
The problem is that Biden CAN'T WIN. He can't energize swing voters to go to the polls to vote AGAINST Trump. And because of this man's ego, Trump is going to win and fuck the country up and cause 10s of millions to suffer more than they already are.
The fact is all the alternatives to Biden are polling badly against Trump. Can they turn it around?? Maybe. Maybe not. There is a reason why an old man Biden got the nomination in 2020. Name recognition, and being a white centrist that white independents and anti-maga republicans can vote for. They will stay home.
These people in swing states will not vote for a black woman Kamala Harris from California who lack charisma and did poorly in 2020 primaries. She is not going to easily step aside and let someone else replace Biden. Big hurdle here.
It really leaves only Newsom and Whitmer, who are also polling badly against Trump. Whitmer probably is the best of all, because she is from Michigan and could carry Michigan and other nearby swing states.
The thing with polls is that Biden is at his ceiling. Someone like whitmer in these polls actually has a lot of people are are "unsure/soft 3rd party". There are a lot more votes to gain there.
There was that internal dem leak that showed whitmer way up over biden in swing states [https://x.com/umichvoter/status/1808209045251060034](https://x.com/umichvoter/status/1808209045251060034)
Trump is still the Republican nominee and there is every reason for people to vote against putting that felon, fraud, sexual assailant, failed businessman, and former president who demonstrated a nonstop stream of malfeasance, misfeasance, and nonfeasance back in power. Trump needs to be rejected. And besides all that, both of these guys are old. Doesn’t matter if one is a few years older than the other.
All I could think about leading up to the debate was the fact that every single time in the last few years there has been a statement from the white house, it’s always from a representative. Biden *never* went in front of a mic to speak about anything.
That struck me as worrisome just due to the thought, why won’t they let him speak publicly? It really had me worried.
Then he walked out onto the debate stage and all my worst fears were realized. *THIS* is why he is never on camera, or never makes press statements. He’s too damn old.
The GOP fought to make the tapes from the hunter biden bs public, and the white house used executive privilege to keep them sealed, and only released transcripts. Why? What didn’t they want people to hear?
The team around Biden *knows* he is failing mentally. Does this mean Kamala and Jill are running the country?
We are trying to stop the most corrupt person in history from ruining the nation, and the DNC is playing games with the American people.
Trump is going to win, and all the democrats are going to scream about how they didn’t see it coming.
The right spent 6 years railing Clinton about emails and Benghazi, and people were shocked when she lost.
The DNC is completely out of touch with the average person that votes democratic. And it’s going to screw us all.
Even if the numbers have moved little since the debate, *TRUMP IS STILL AHEAD* and has been for the past three months at least. If this is an existential threat to the world, which I think it is (Project 2025 is chilling in the extreme), he needs to do what's best for the country, not just himself and his family.
If you want to stop a second Trump presidency, don't play into his hands!
I'll vote for the Democratic nominee because Trump is a menace, but I'd rather have someone at the top of the ticket who can actually send Felon Melon packing.
I don’t know about other voters but I don’t live under a rock. Biden could literally be strapped to a dolly like Hannibal Lecter and I would vote for him to keep Trump from becoming President again.
It is true things haven't changed much since the debate BECAUSE FEARS ABOUT HIS AGE ARE BAKED IN to how most people see biden. that is a bad thing.
People saw how bad he was in the debate and thought "oh this confirms my fears about biden" that shows bidens big weakness and in the week since biden hasn't pushed back hard enough on that perception.
I love biden but he should have stepped down after 1 term.
and now he is saying he will be in office till he is 85?????? that can't possible be the plan if he wins. there has to be some official talk of him passing the torch at some point
Well in all fairness, the right has been saying he is incompetent and belongs in an old folks home for years. But when you have the media carrying water for you, it’s the American people that pays. Anybody that has paid attention knows that Biden ain’t right in the medulla oblongata.
No. They did not have an issue before the debate. It’s been amplified by the media.
People cheered for marijuana getting rescheduled a few months ago.
But he’s old is the 2024 version of But her emails.
Learn from your mistakes.
Biden is old.
But as far as I know he has not been accused of having sex with two young girls on Epstein island.
Can anyone with a brain help me decide who to vote for I am an American and this a tough decision for me.
It's the age old paedophile vs old guy debate
I’ve gone from having a generally pretty good view of Biden and his presidency, to outright despising him. Yes, I know that Trump is one of the worst people on the planet, but Biden has been a representation of normalcy and decency — something that has been sorely lacking in American culture since 2016.
So for Biden to be so selfish and obstinate makes me more angry than Trump at the moment. His whole “if I lose I’ll be okay because I tried” is so infuriating it’s insane. Biden now represents the classic criticism of Boomers/young Silent Gen types — they only care about themselves and their egos are unbelievably destructive.
I want nothing more than for Biden to drop out of this race. At least if we still lose we’ll know that we did actually try.
Oh and Jill Biden can go with him. Sociopath.
These things only go one direction. We have to get “comfortable” with the fact that the ABC interview was Biden at his absolute best. That’s a hard thing to accept and still earnestly believe he can beat Trump.
I've never seen such a visceral reaction to a debate before. Biden is going to get fucking smoked this election. It was very close last time, and most people feel worst off now because of inflation. He's an idiot to let his hubris keep him in this race.
I'll still vote for him over Trump, but do think it'll be in vain.
What kid of cabinet would Trump hire? Syncophants and yes men; People who fleece the government of every dollar it could.
Compare that to the existing Biden cabinet. Which cabinet would work in the best interests of the people?
If food Inflation is the primary driver, does anyone think Trump could do any better growing food, given the extreme growing conditions we have across the planet. Climate change is having a serious impact on everyone now, and in the future. Trump will manage climate change even worse than he managed covid.
I don’t give a flying fuck if he’s old. If he’s the nominee and he’s running against the felon, I will vote for Biden. Doesn’t change a goddamn thing. I will vote blue and only blue.
No. We are concerned with Trump, with project 2025, with standing on a razors edge of losing our democracy. And medias current insatiable drive to sensationalize Biden is ushering us further over the edge.
The media is reporting on real concerns among Democrats, both voters and elites, that Biden cannot beat Trump. If we are standing on a razors edge, then we cannot take that risk. In that regard, the media is part of the effort to save democracy in this case.
A lot more people had issues with his policies than his age, specifically moderates and independents. His pitiful approval rating is because of inflation, Gaza and the border. Regardless of whether he’s actually to blame for those, people blame him nonetheless and that matters a great deal. The media and his team just chose to be willfully blind to these things and shut down all criticisms of the administration as misinformation which further fueled anger.
Anyone who called attention to it before was labeled an alt right extremist. Democrats should probably stop trying to label anyone who dissents as such.
To be fair, president, once elected, does not need to be quick witted, and thinking on his feet - a president can hide behind aids and secretaries, only coming out now and then for a prepared speech. It’s not like a parliamentary system, where a Prime Minister needs to constantly interact with the press and opposition parties in front of the television cameras.
Dems have always been worried about Biden's age regarding 2024. But the die hard Dems will vote for Biden, regardless...just like they'd vote for Harris, if she was on the top of the ticket.
But until the debate it looked like the racist backlash towards Harris was more difficult to overcome than the ageist backlash towards Biden. Otherwise, he never would've run again.
The MAGA base was never going to vote for him. So, the election will come down to the Independent Voters and the Democrats who might otherwise stay home.
With his debate performance, that assessment of risk regarding the opinions of those two groups has changed. It is difficult to make decisions based on polls, since polls are not accurate, but the shock of viscerally seeing Biden's current condition has been jarring, to say the least?
With the Immunity ruling, the publicity of Project 2025 and the recently released Epstein/Trump Pedophilia Rape documents, the risk of a Trump 2nd term has become even more dangerous to Americans and to the World.
Why would anyone who voted for Biden in 2020 to replace Trump either:
A. Stay Home
B. Vote for Trump
C. Vote for someone else
to allow Trump BACK INTO office? What acts/policies in the role of POTUS would warrant their change of heart?
in 2016 Biden was old. Y'all knew, everyone knew. Y'all had a chance to pick someone else and y'all didn't.
Too many Dem voters, you can knock 'em down with a bag of peanuts they so weak-minded. But be the first to tell someone else, "be TOUGH. fight TOUGH" and they own minds be whipping they ass.
Not. We know is old 4 years ago and always. the Maga and Trump and Rusia make this a talking point and the media and internet make it a joke day in and out them the media panic and making different narrative.
But you see people Trump is a criminal, a Pedo, and sick on the head but not matter what they stay together and embrace Trump.
We in the other side destroying Biden and bullying him for being old.
What that Fffff Broh really.
And the most pathetic thing is the dinosaurs 🦖 at congress and senate are saying hi is to old.
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So many people miss the real issue here. This election will be decided by 75,000 to 200,000 voters in several swing states (PA MI WI AZ GA). That’s it. Do you think his age / performance is going to motivate voters in those states? And will the campaign be able to get high turnout in those states? If not, he needs to be replaced immediately.
I really don’t wanna be that guy, but if polls are accurate.. NH, VA and CO are swing states this election.
It’s very alarming. Used to live in VA. If that’s going to be a swing state, Biden already lost.
What makes you think that CO is a swing state?
This. It's not democrat and never trumpers that need convincing, they're gonna vote for whoever is the Dem nom, no matter who it is. It's those swing state voters, and Dems demanding everyone vote for Biden are doing the same mistake they made back in 2016, ignoring how stupid voters truly are and thinking those individuals will vote for Biden, even though many are already thinking of writing a name in or not voting this time.
> Do you think his age / performance is going to motivate voters in those states? What you need to worry about is "demotivating" voters, and/or influencing "double-haters." Most people already know who they're going to vote for and are not going to change their minds. The election (supposedly) will be won/lost based on turnout of low-propensity voters and which way double-haters (a sub-section of independents) break. I think Biden needs to drop out (and resign). If it's going to be kamala running, let her do it as pres.
Kamala should have to compete for the nomination, not be crowned..
Definitely. DO people forget she was last in primaries?
She's the elected VP. This is America. We have a process. If Joe resigns, she's President.
He can drop out of the race and still see out his term as president. This isn't a succession issue.
This is how the comments go: Resign and make Kamala president. Make Kamala work for nomination. Biden leaves race but doesn’t resign. I’m sure the replacement process at the convention will go so smoothly.
Gee all that sure sounds like it means Trump will get his ass kicked in November.
Nomination. Not succession.
Yeah if Biden is going to leave he should be given the dignity of finishing out his term, no reason for him to literally leave office immediately
It's a political party nominating a candidate. When she tried to get the nomination herself she got stomped. No way should she be the candidate because if she went through the same process again the same thing would happen. This "process" you speak of is just some shit the elitist leaders of the party made up to protect their own power.
No one is calling for that. Literally no one. What they are calling for is for Biden to finish out his term but to officially announce asap that he is stepping down from running for reelection and (preferably) call for an open convention. The biggest probably technical issue is actually the campaign money for next cycle he has already collected. There are rules about what he can and can’t do with it and its significant enough it needs to be addressed.
Yes it will absolutely cost him far more than the amount this election will be decided by There is no fucking question, and all of the dem establishment attempts to bury their heads in the sand, and "true dem" pissing contests will change that.
The flip from this sub is astounding
I mean, some things happened? It’s not like this flip was out of nowhere
Agreed - personally, I was feeling pretty good about Biden. I don’t watch every single speech, but he looked very solid in the State of the Union. The debate was a disaster and the Stephanopoulos interview wasn’t much better. I don’t really give a shit personally - I think his administration could be good for another 4 years, despite his age. But I think that it could affect swing states and that’s all that matters.
I'm not sure how many people feel this way but I was generally worried about his age last year. At the State of the Union, he was still holding it together, but really had to make an effort. My worst fears were realized at the debate.
I've been worried since he won the nomination. I've been involved in caring for all my grandparents and several other elderly relatives, what they say about everything going to shit when you reach 80 is true. Some people don't decline as fast as others, but they all start to have physical and cognitive issues. When you add in the stress of Biden's job, it really was stupid for him to run in 2020, let alone to think he could run again. I'll vote for him if it comes to that, but JFC this feels like elder abuse.
I’m not sure he’s going to live another four years, he looks incredibly old and not healthy.
With all the concerns about not being able to change him on the ballot in misc states, it makes me wonder if the new tactic would be "Vote for Biden, he'll resign after he wins, and we'll get Kamela Harris for President then".
It’s right wing bullshit (that blue MAGA likes too). The Trump campaign wants to face Biden. Sure, they’ll file frivolous legal challenges in a bunch of States that will get shot down just like nearly all their frivolous law suits filed everywhere. If Biden steps down in the next few weeks, his replacement will be on the ballot.
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Jimmy Carter isn't doing one of the most stressful jobs in the world that is guaranteed to age you dramatically.
His press conference in December with Zelenskyy was the first time I started to have real doubts.
Biden didn't age 10 year overnight. His mental decline was obvious for a long time before the debate but when people pointed it out they were called right wing shills for it.
It was easier to dismiss the criticisms when it was a fifteen second clip rather than a 90 minute debacle.
and there’s the problem. it was easy to ignore the issue and lambast the people trying to warn you…until it wasnt
This is the thing for me. I saw plenty of clips of President Biden having his moments, but that debate was just something else entirely. Yikes
Hopefully this conversation is the party moving in a more healthy direction These conversations are important, and it’s disappointing they weren’t warranted before
Yup. I was telling people that there were realistic concerns about his coherency just months before the debate and was downvoted and handwaved away. Now it seems like half the Democrats are panicking because they can't ignore it anymore.
> when people pointed it out they were called right wing shills for it. This is still happening a lot on this sub. They also think everyone who thinks we can do better than Biden is a bot. Blue Maga is real
The aging has clearly accelerated recently.
Nah, it's just been covered up by his staff by not allowing him to go off the cuff, and public examples were hand-waved away by his supporters.
One week ago this article would have been downvoted to hell, just like any other legitimate news source saying something this sub doesn’t like
Can’t pull the wool over everyone’s eyes and run interference in the media when the whole nation saw him stumble on television
Right. The general strategy of "if you ignore what you saw and heard, it wasn't that bad!"
Don’t believe the lies your eyes and ears are telling you.
Its more funny to see the shocked faces here to be honest. I thought the debate went ok since I already knew that they were both old fart(and one is a crazy old fart). Everyone telling me how shocked they were that Biden was so old the next day made me realize how delulu 90% of the people on this sub is.
It's hilarious how these stories about Biden's age got downvoted to oblivion just days before the debate lol.
I was oblivious to Biden’s age. I haven’t been on this sub-Reddit since the election, but hopped back on after the disastrous debate. I was shocked he was chasing another term at 81. I’m 72…maybe that explains it. I’ll see myself out … maybe.
The astroturfing on here makes the sub basically useless.
You mean astroturfing as in Democrats like me who got a bad feeling when Biden first said he was running for re-election because there were huge questions about him being too old the last time, but got behind him because we wanted to beat Trump and a contested primary involving a sitting president always critically wounds that president and dooms their re-election? But that support was always thin and was contingent on him being able to beat Trump, and now that it's clear he can't we're in no mood to go down with the ship with him into the briny depths of fascism, and would rather have someone who can actually win while there's still a chance to switch him out? His approval ratings were mired in the 30s and he was behind in most battleground state polling even before the debate. He needed the debate to turn the race around, to give Americans assurance he could handle four more years. He did the opposite and pushed a losing race even further towards Trump. If swing state voters weren't convinced to back him before, they sure aren't getting on board now that they'll be flooded with attack ads and memes showing Biden staring gape-mouthed into the void and proclaiming that we beat Medicare from now until election day.
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The NPR sub is in full meltdown over any coverage pointing out Biden’s performance. They like their head in the sand where it is.
Well said. I will back Biden over Trump but I’m pissed that one guy’s ego is preventing us from having a better choice.
At least two guys egos
I backed H Clinton over Trump, but privately screamed, “why is it so close?!?” against frick’n Donald J Trump the whole campaign season. What was with her uninspiring “fight to keep the status quo?” People were ok with the status quo but they wanted better. She actively fought against “better.” Who does that? Biden is doing something similar, but the status quo isn’t about policy it is about his stamina and energy. Most people were ok with his performance over the last four years but want something better for the next four. Biden is actively fighting against that better, which means he is taking us to the same result.
Who is the better choice?
Newsom, Whitmer, literally anyone else who can string together coherent sentences. The bar is in hell. We’re not asking for JFK.
Plus the fact that Democrats were lying to us about the president's health for months (**and still are**) . This practically begs for congressional hearings and the Republicans would be not only right but proper to spend the months leading up to the election screaming about the issue We've handed them our balls on a f*cking platter
It’s not astroturfing for the most part. A lot of it is probably people like me who are scared of another Trump term. 2020 was closer than it looks and we see some people have Trumpstolga. There are also people who have 2016 flashbacks of Hillary being unpopular yet expected to win. I like Biden, I voted for him in the primaries this year to show my support. However, I’m terrified that he scared away enough swing voters and apathethic voters with his debate performance and now there are countless memes of him being a senile old man. He showed he was capable at the SotU, but his debate and interview was the exact opposite.
The thing is, this was foreseeable a year ago when people were pushing for a primary but the line of the Democratic establishment, as well as many people on this subreddit, was “a primary will weaken Biden and he’s our only chance to beat Trump”. I think the notion that only Biden could have beaten Trump in 2020 was unfounded, and the idea that he was still a strong candidate was always a stretch even last year. By refusing to allow democracy to happen within the Democratic Party, they have now set up an even more precarious situation with little time to course correct.
Mexican American, second generation immigrant, female in my 30’s and I don’t want anymore kids. I’m fucking terrified. I wasn’t in the country for Trumps term. I hate living outside the US. This is my home. I have rights here. This is my country and I’m proud of what it used to stand for, before MAGA asshole took Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness and made it into something else. I don’t want to live anywhere else but here. I’ve seen and lived thru what it’s like to not have any rights and be a second class citizen. It sucks. It’s dehumanizing. And I would never want to see that happen to my beautiful country.
This is not astroturfing. This is the culmination of ignoring what your base wants and lying to them for decades. The debate seems to be the straw that broke the camel’s back for a lot of people. They’re angry and embarrassed. Those are very strong emotions. And the bad part for Biden is that all those feelings are 100% justifiable.
Given that there huge numbers of not Trump voters, Democrats should be running with someone who has 55% total approval rating in battle states. I think that's is possible.
I’m really pissed by the people on here who claim that anyone worried about Biden’s fitness must be a bot or astroturfer. I’m from the Midwest, and literally everyone I know from every age demographic and income level thinks that Biden is a vegetable and is contemplating staying home.
I've watched the debate and the Friday interview, I can't ignore Biden is failing.
But still loads better than being lied to every minute of every day. The other guy lives in a fantasy land when he speaks.
WE GET IT DOG. trump lies. We know. We’ve known for years. Biden is losing to him, that’s the issue.
Yeah, I want a candidate that can beat Trump because he is shitty and it doesn't seem like that's Biden.
While I agree, Biden's approval ratings and his swing state polling shows that this is not the prevailing sentiment. We need to give swing voters someone they can be excited to vote for or we're going to lose.
You mean like how the Democrats are lying to us every minute of every day about the president's health? Or are those lies okay?
At this point it feels like we’re being lied to about Biden’s health, though. He’s taking the one edge that the Dems have and blowing it.
You mean like the DNC has been doing for the past couple of years?
I guess we're just defining astroturfing as whatever you disagree with. Much easier than accepting there are opinions other than your own that people agree with en mass.
I’m frankly getting convinced that anyone defending Biden and accusing others of astroturfing is the actual astroturfer.
It's stressing me out so much, not gonna lie. To mitigate it, I've started dipping into smaller subs. seeing the vast majority of users have normal takes and call out the astroturfers is helping a lot.
His debate performance was astounding. It's hard to express the shock both my wife and I felt watching it. She had to leave the room multiple times. It was like watching a really scary horror movie.
Everyone wants to win. This isn’t what winning looks or feels like.
Yeah. It's been wild to watch this sub go, from weeks of "Trump dementia, Trump sundowning, Trump will skip the debate because he's a coward" to. "Biden dementia, Biden sundowning, Biden should pass the torch because he's too old." And I get it, I do. People may want a younger candidate, but a younger candidate will have a different set of problems. The DNC absolutely will not pick whoever these people may have in mind. Also the last time the DNC chose a candidate for us, it was disasterous. I'm doubtful Biden will step down, and I hope but am not hopeful Biden will turn this weakness back into a strength or otherwise mitigate it.
Biden already is the DNC's chosen candidate. That's why people beating him dropped out and endorsed him in 2020, and why there were no meaningful primary challengers this time around. But yes, their choice is shaping up to be a disaster for this election.
People keep wanting a different candidate but have yet to put forward and legitimate candidate. It's easy to say I want someone else but much harder to find someone that would actually win at this point this late in the process. As a president Biden has been pretty effective policy wise. Frankly I'm more worried about trump and his 2025 cronies.
> much harder to find someone that would actually win at this point this late in the process. Which is why if they presented Biden as a one term bridge candidate, it would have allowed a younger person a head start getting their name in the national conversation. Then have Biden pass the torch when the person announced their candidacy. That would have avoided a lot of talk about Biden’s mental health, as the focus right now would have been on the candidate. Biden could stumped with canned speeches.
Biden never said he would only do one term. When asked his answers always boiled down to “we’ll see”.
Not really. We saw the debate and found out we've been lied to and now there is a huge chance for trump to win when he should have easily been defeated.
I was called a doomer two days ago for continuing to support Biden stepping down. Fuck this sub.
Lol that's the problem! He was supposed to turn this shit around with the debate and instead made it worse. He's losing. If the status quo doesn't change between now and November, it's game over. And what is still on the calendar to mix things up?
If I had to guess, I would imagine a bunch of safe teleprompter speeches in front of people who were all planning on voting for him anyway.
That's all he does because he can't do anything else. If he could, he would.
My favorite is whenever there’s a story about some high level leaders being impressed by how coherent he is- inevitably at a meeting behind closed doors with no video.
And worse yet, to overcome the Republican advantage of the electoral college, Biden realistically needs to be ahead by about 5 points nationally (factoring trumps tendency to outperform polls). So if we're down 2 points now, we realistically need to make up 7 points. I don't see Biden doing that
[Nate Silver's election model](https://www.natesilver.net/p/nate-silver-2024-president-election-polls-model) predicts a Republican electoral college advantage of only ~2% this election. If Biden gets between 4% and 5% of the popular vote, he has a 97.7% to win the electoral college.
Are you saying Biden will more likely than not win the EC with 4% of the popular vote?
Sorry :p If he wins the popular vote by between 4 and 5 percentage points.
And its been over a week and he's done nothing to convince people that he's still capable - the obvious explanation for that is **he's not**.
They so desperately want to just sweep this under the rug like every other time but it’s not going to work.
They want to get to the convention to lock in biden as the candidate and just say fall in line you are stuck with him
And there’s really nothing to stop them. It’s a game of chicken they know they win every time.
they may win the battle of who the candidate is, but they lost the war. biden lost biden after the debate and it was arguably his most needed win edit: biden lost pa
He's made it worse. He sounds like a completely different person from the one that gave the last state of the union address. His post interviews do not differ much from the debate. As dangerous and disjointed as Trump is, he appears coherent to the average voter. Biden does not. Average Americans and independents do not follow politics as closely as people in this sub. They do not understand the existential threat to democracy that exists with Trump. They do not understand complex issues like inflation or the economy.
He’s spent the whole week trying to convince dems to continue to let him run. He needs to be convincing swing voters to vote for him which he’s incapable of doing because his diminished speaking capacity only allows him to do like a 15 minute scripted speech before dinner time
There is apparently another debate scheduled for Sept, but that's after the convention, so he'll be the nominee then and they would get Harris for Pres then. If dropping out is the right thing, he has to do it before the convention otherwise it would be bad. And frankly, given his over-the-top loyalty (like to Garland), even if he was going to drop out, he'd do it so that he can guarantee Harris gets the top slot instead of being passed over.
"Don't worry, nothing will fundamentally change."
"It was just one night!" "No it wasn't....that's a blatant lie" "Shutup and get back in line. Don't you know democracy is at stake?"
Battleground independents, undecided, never Trumpers and double hater voters: "No, I will decide what I think is best and that includes staying home." The election in a nutshell.
Pretty much every election. The GOP is generally smaller but has a huge voting turnout percentage, regardless of candidate. The Dem base is bigger, and will usually vote party lines as well, but getting them actually to vote is the challenge. And then you have like 40-50% of the voting populace that is tuned out and the challenge there is information and getting them to actually vote/care at all. Dems always have to he chasing that apathetic group of their own base as the "independents". But half the time they end up trying to appeal to "sane" GOP rather than focusing on that enormous other group.
It’s not an election if there isn’t a choice.
Honestly I’m now more put off by this stuff than the original incident. Especially the interview comment regarding it all going horribly wrong and we loosing our democracy “well at least I know I tried my best”. 😣 I want a change now even more. Will I still vote for him if I have to. Absolutely. But not everyone realizes the real dangers and may not.
"tried my goodest." ftfy
It pisses me off that this is the exact road they are taking, again. Just being condescending assholes and ignoring what their voters actually want. I don’t think it’s going to go over well for them this time. If they continue to dig in on this it’s going to completely obliterate whatever trust their voters have left.
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It will just like 2016 when Hillary supporters (or bots, who knows, but there wasn't any push back from other Hillary supporters) constantly told Bernie supports they didn't need or want their votes in the general. And then when Hillary lost it was suddenly the BernieBro's fault for not supporting her, instead of you know, the terrible campaign she ran.
Far too often I feel like the DNC leadership actively seeks to lose elections/ policy issues so that they can send some really dramatic fundraising emails
It's truly disrespectful to the voter. Nothing new, unfortunately.
I found it interesting listening to an interview with Savid Blunkett, a fomer Labour Home Secretary in the UK, on the rest is politics podcast. He remarked how Labours 1997 victory came about because they ditched the old paternalism that so dominates the left at times. I think the democrats biggest problem right now is that they too have become dominated by paternalism, and people dont like that
Democrats being condescending assholes to their own base, what a shocker.
Are they though? The weekend has had more high profile sitting dems calling for him (nicely) to bow out. Congress is coming back from recess this week. The calls are getting louder and louder, not quieter. Once congress is back in session, it's going to get even more urgent.
> It pisses me off that this is the exact road they are taking, again I don't think it is a "they" issue unless you mean Biden's advisors. State law and party rules mean that Biden IS the nominee unless he chooses to step aside. I think party leaders are panicking right now.
Everyone in the upper end of the democratic circle knew the state Biden’s in. You aren’t skipping the Super Bowl interview for 2 years without leadership calling g you why you’re not doing a softball event that has millions of people watching. This entire mess could have been easily avoided if not for the selfishness of certain people.
I honestly think the DNC has itself to blame for this whole fiasco. They have made their entire identity being "it's either Trump or us" to the point that they'll [even boost extremist candidates to make the threat more real](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/13/us/politics/moreno-trump-democrats-ohio.html). I get the feeling that democracy is at stake because Democrats are willing to put anything on the table to win.
"Vote blue no matter who!" Those who are going to do that are doing that regardless, but they still think that preaching to the choir wins elections despite so much evidence to the contrary.
He is old but the debate is far and away the worst he has ever looked. John Gartner brought on a geriatrician onto his podcast - and she said there is no way someone with dementia could look that bad one night, and then go out and perform well the next day. In her patients, conditions like that are almost always caused by medications. She went into further detail that medicines that block nerve receptors have a tendency to cause cognitive issues in geriatric people that take them. Her example was benadryl might make a young person drowsy, but for a person in their 80s it might cause outright confusion. So her suggestion was that Biden add a geriatrician to his medical team so they understand how common medications can have profound side effects on someone Biden's age and know to avoid them.
I would love a link to that conversation so that I can post it to some people who might be interested.
Democracy is at stake and if this old dementia ridden man doesn't drop out he still gets my vote. Because democracy is at stake and I would rather vote for this old man who at least surrounds himself with decent human beings than the crazy megalomaniac who literally wants to be king. It's still the choice of a lesser of two evils. And I'll take old and senile over old and crazy any day.
I said in advance that I would be watching with my hands over my eyes. I was afraid of him looking bad, and flubbing some facts, but never expected anything as bad as what happened. And yeah, the dems have zero credibility right now for trying to hide this.
>And yeah, the dems have zero credibility right now for trying to hide this. This very much seems to be an "inner circle" problem rather than a general Dem problem. Hell, even the GOP was shouting "he's gonna be on drugs!" so the fact that nobody saw this coming is on Biden and whatever handful of people has been responsible for keeping himself insulated. The fact that the rest of the Dems now have to do the PR and the positive spin is just having to take a bite out of the shit sandwich Biden's team made.
This sub was definitely downvoting any person showing concern towards Biden's cognitivity until the comment was hidden, right up until the debate. Most Democrats aren't willing to entertain criticism until they have no other choice.
That would surprise me. He's had meetings with top dems where they had to realize how bad it is.
If he was meeting them during his good hours and only for around 20 minutes, I'd say they probably just thought any gaffe they saw was just him being old. Plus in another leak it was revealed that unless they were top leadership, no one has really been allowed to see him for the last 6months. My grandma is sundowning. I mostly only saw her during the day and when she would make a mistake I just thought she getting old. Then I saw her a couple of times in the evening. She was so out of it. But even then it took me a couple of months before I asked my dad if he'd noticed her acting different. Then after that it took even more time for us to tell my mom we didn't think she was OK. So I can definitely see lawmakers that didn't see him often, and only during his good hours, dismissing anything they saw as him just aging.
The leaks we've been getting from anonymous sources inside the whitehouse since the debates would seem to point that the top Dems were as blindsided by the debate performance as everyone else was.
Counterpoint is the WSJ article from early June. I tend to dismiss the WSJ but this appears to have been accurate, and I can't imagine Dems not having more knowledge than the WSJ.
Voters were telling Ds they didn't want Joe LONG ago, but elitist Ds would not listen.
Denying a real primary is the source of all these problems. If Biden won a real primary which would’ve been possible if everyone threw in their hats and split the anti Biden vote no one would be asking him to step aside. We would’ve had our chance and everyone would be uniting behind him regardless of his mental condition even after a disastrous debate. The lack of a primary is what’s releasing all this pent up frustration. This anger isn’t just about the debate. It’s about the gaslighting of his condition and telling voters who’ve wanted an alternative to go fuck themselves
Do a poll that asks if his age is going to affect your vote this November for me the answer is yeah he's old and I'm voting for him, if God forbid something happens at any point Kamala is the new president and THANK GOD. How is it even a question when the alternative is open facism at worst and a horrible economy at best.
Kamala is even more unpopular than Biden which really is mind boggling
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> The problem is that a lot of his supporters and most undecideds had concerns already, and the debate confirmed and magnified those concerns. This is the #1 reason why people (especially Biden) need to stop saying "it was one bad night." No, it was one night so bad that nobody could deny it any longer.
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Yep, all he ever had to say to the age concerns was "watch me". We did
What matters is that he tried his best.
tried his goodest ftfy
This is exactly it. Top comment.
> The other problem is that even "little change" is not anything he can afford given he was already losing. Yep, this is the problem I see too. He was already behind because he was (unfairly, in my opinion) getting the blame for global inflation. Then you had the concerns about his age and mental state. So, he really needed to stick the landing on that debate to put those fears to rest. Instead he made everything so much worse that members of his own party are asking him to step aside. I don't see how he can recover from that. If he stays in, his best hope is that he loses by 3 or 4 points instead of 6+ now. Trying to minimize the damage to downballot races is all he can really do. I'd prefer he steps aside for someone with a fighting chance, at least.
I've been worried about Biden's chances since inflation got really bad, honestly. Although he didn't start it, the situation is tailor-made for a Republican to seize on it. Unfortunately, that Republican is the grossly unfit, hatemongering Donald J. Trump.
The irony is that the term should be Trumpflation. Covid plus Trump equaled inflation. Biden inherited it and got blamed. If God forbid Trump wins in November, he'll end up getting credit for everything Biden did to try and tamper it down. Then Trump will destroy everything again but by the time those chickens come home to roost someone else (provided there *is* a someone else afterward) will inherit the blame again.
He's polling 12 points lower on head-to-head against Trump versus 4 years ago - and aggregates have *underestimated* Trump in both elections he ran in. So yeah - "little change" is not good news. It's terrifying. He needs to improve his numbers drastically, and there doesn't seem to be any real plan to do so.
This fact needs more attention When you compare 2024 to 2020 polling he is a mile behind
This should not be a close race! Dems should be leading Trump by double digits! The reason they’re not is because they have a weak candidate whose biggest weakness is only getting worse by the day.
The debate showed us that Biden is old and Trump is evil. Perhaps the next debate will include something about the wetness of water. Then we can poll people's new beliefs about water.
Anyone being shocked by Biden being old as shit has just had their heads in the sand for the passed 6 years. I'm more shocked by the people shocked by the shit show of the debate. I didn't even want Biden in 2020, but I voted. And his cabinet has done good, I'll vote again. If he dies in office, pretty much nothing will change because it's the same ones running the show with him anyway.
June 25th: >Progressive: But Biden has mentally declined over the years and it might result in a risky election. >Democrats: How dare you! June 27th: >Democrats: Why didnt anyone tell me Biden was so incoherent!?!? I don't know, it's almost funny how Democrats are continually blindsided after ignoring progressives' criticisms over the years. They criticized Hillary's FBI investigation and they're criticizing Biden's age; maybe they can see things that blindly loyal people can't see.
"Little has changed?" Are you fucking kidding me? He was too old then, there were better candidates in 2020. The presidency ages you far faster than almost any other job in politics. You can watch videos of him in 2012, 2016 and 2020. The difference is huge. And he seemed old 4, 8 and 12 years ago. This is such fucking cope from Biden's campaign. The problem is that Biden CAN'T WIN. He can't energize swing voters to go to the polls to vote AGAINST Trump. And because of this man's ego, Trump is going to win and fuck the country up and cause 10s of millions to suffer more than they already are.
Maybe some voters, I don't care. It's not like I was tricked, I knew he was old when I voted for him, I'll vote for him again.
The fact is all the alternatives to Biden are polling badly against Trump. Can they turn it around?? Maybe. Maybe not. There is a reason why an old man Biden got the nomination in 2020. Name recognition, and being a white centrist that white independents and anti-maga republicans can vote for. They will stay home. These people in swing states will not vote for a black woman Kamala Harris from California who lack charisma and did poorly in 2020 primaries. She is not going to easily step aside and let someone else replace Biden. Big hurdle here. It really leaves only Newsom and Whitmer, who are also polling badly against Trump. Whitmer probably is the best of all, because she is from Michigan and could carry Michigan and other nearby swing states.
The thing with polls is that Biden is at his ceiling. Someone like whitmer in these polls actually has a lot of people are are "unsure/soft 3rd party". There are a lot more votes to gain there. There was that internal dem leak that showed whitmer way up over biden in swing states [https://x.com/umichvoter/status/1808209045251060034](https://x.com/umichvoter/status/1808209045251060034)
Trump is still the Republican nominee and there is every reason for people to vote against putting that felon, fraud, sexual assailant, failed businessman, and former president who demonstrated a nonstop stream of malfeasance, misfeasance, and nonfeasance back in power. Trump needs to be rejected. And besides all that, both of these guys are old. Doesn’t matter if one is a few years older than the other.
All I could think about leading up to the debate was the fact that every single time in the last few years there has been a statement from the white house, it’s always from a representative. Biden *never* went in front of a mic to speak about anything. That struck me as worrisome just due to the thought, why won’t they let him speak publicly? It really had me worried. Then he walked out onto the debate stage and all my worst fears were realized. *THIS* is why he is never on camera, or never makes press statements. He’s too damn old. The GOP fought to make the tapes from the hunter biden bs public, and the white house used executive privilege to keep them sealed, and only released transcripts. Why? What didn’t they want people to hear? The team around Biden *knows* he is failing mentally. Does this mean Kamala and Jill are running the country? We are trying to stop the most corrupt person in history from ruining the nation, and the DNC is playing games with the American people. Trump is going to win, and all the democrats are going to scream about how they didn’t see it coming. The right spent 6 years railing Clinton about emails and Benghazi, and people were shocked when she lost. The DNC is completely out of touch with the average person that votes democratic. And it’s going to screw us all.
Jill is the new Nancy Reagan. Pushing her husband on that stage while he was sundowning was elderly abuse.
Biden is already in much worse shape than Reagan was at the end of his *second* term.
No Reagan actually had dementia. Much different.
Even if the numbers have moved little since the debate, *TRUMP IS STILL AHEAD* and has been for the past three months at least. If this is an existential threat to the world, which I think it is (Project 2025 is chilling in the extreme), he needs to do what's best for the country, not just himself and his family. If you want to stop a second Trump presidency, don't play into his hands! I'll vote for the Democratic nominee because Trump is a menace, but I'd rather have someone at the top of the ticket who can actually send Felon Melon packing.
I’m probably delusional, but so think a selfless act of stepping down could go a long way. It’s the EXACT opposite of a man like Trump.
I don’t know about other voters but I don’t live under a rock. Biden could literally be strapped to a dolly like Hannibal Lecter and I would vote for him to keep Trump from becoming President again.
It is true things haven't changed much since the debate BECAUSE FEARS ABOUT HIS AGE ARE BAKED IN to how most people see biden. that is a bad thing. People saw how bad he was in the debate and thought "oh this confirms my fears about biden" that shows bidens big weakness and in the week since biden hasn't pushed back hard enough on that perception. I love biden but he should have stepped down after 1 term. and now he is saying he will be in office till he is 85?????? that can't possible be the plan if he wins. there has to be some official talk of him passing the torch at some point
Well in all fairness, the right has been saying he is incompetent and belongs in an old folks home for years. But when you have the media carrying water for you, it’s the American people that pays. Anybody that has paid attention knows that Biden ain’t right in the medulla oblongata.
No. They did not have an issue before the debate. It’s been amplified by the media. People cheered for marijuana getting rescheduled a few months ago. But he’s old is the 2024 version of But her emails. Learn from your mistakes.
Biden is old. But as far as I know he has not been accused of having sex with two young girls on Epstein island. Can anyone with a brain help me decide who to vote for I am an American and this a tough decision for me. It's the age old paedophile vs old guy debate
I’ve gone from having a generally pretty good view of Biden and his presidency, to outright despising him. Yes, I know that Trump is one of the worst people on the planet, but Biden has been a representation of normalcy and decency — something that has been sorely lacking in American culture since 2016. So for Biden to be so selfish and obstinate makes me more angry than Trump at the moment. His whole “if I lose I’ll be okay because I tried” is so infuriating it’s insane. Biden now represents the classic criticism of Boomers/young Silent Gen types — they only care about themselves and their egos are unbelievably destructive. I want nothing more than for Biden to drop out of this race. At least if we still lose we’ll know that we did actually try. Oh and Jill Biden can go with him. Sociopath.
These things only go one direction. We have to get “comfortable” with the fact that the ABC interview was Biden at his absolute best. That’s a hard thing to accept and still earnestly believe he can beat Trump.
I've never seen such a visceral reaction to a debate before. Biden is going to get fucking smoked this election. It was very close last time, and most people feel worst off now because of inflation. He's an idiot to let his hubris keep him in this race. I'll still vote for him over Trump, but do think it'll be in vain.
What kid of cabinet would Trump hire? Syncophants and yes men; People who fleece the government of every dollar it could. Compare that to the existing Biden cabinet. Which cabinet would work in the best interests of the people? If food Inflation is the primary driver, does anyone think Trump could do any better growing food, given the extreme growing conditions we have across the planet. Climate change is having a serious impact on everyone now, and in the future. Trump will manage climate change even worse than he managed covid.
Unfortunately logic cannot be applied to politics.
Never vote for Donald trump, who was named in jeffrey epstein documents several times.
I don’t give a flying fuck if he’s old. If he’s the nominee and he’s running against the felon, I will vote for Biden. Doesn’t change a goddamn thing. I will vote blue and only blue.
Why is Biden’s age the stronger narrative when the other candidate is a predator and a criminal?
No. We are concerned with Trump, with project 2025, with standing on a razors edge of losing our democracy. And medias current insatiable drive to sensationalize Biden is ushering us further over the edge.
The media is reporting on real concerns among Democrats, both voters and elites, that Biden cannot beat Trump. If we are standing on a razors edge, then we cannot take that risk. In that regard, the media is part of the effort to save democracy in this case.
A lot more people had issues with his policies than his age, specifically moderates and independents. His pitiful approval rating is because of inflation, Gaza and the border. Regardless of whether he’s actually to blame for those, people blame him nonetheless and that matters a great deal. The media and his team just chose to be willfully blind to these things and shut down all criticisms of the administration as misinformation which further fueled anger.
He could get elected and die for all i care, im voting to avoid a dictator.
Didn’t Biden say that he’d be a one term president? What happened to that?
He’s about to be one anyway
Anyone who called attention to it before was labeled an alt right extremist. Democrats should probably stop trying to label anyone who dissents as such.
For an old fool, his record kicks ass on trump's.
The Dems can’t make fun of the republicans anymore for being in a cult. If you still think that Biden can win in November, you’re in a cult!
Only big media is pushing this narrative. Conveniently ignoring all of Trump's flaws. It's so fucking obvious.
Clearly not the same person as in 2020.
To be fair, president, once elected, does not need to be quick witted, and thinking on his feet - a president can hide behind aids and secretaries, only coming out now and then for a prepared speech. It’s not like a parliamentary system, where a Prime Minister needs to constantly interact with the press and opposition parties in front of the television cameras.
Dems have always been worried about Biden's age regarding 2024. But the die hard Dems will vote for Biden, regardless...just like they'd vote for Harris, if she was on the top of the ticket. But until the debate it looked like the racist backlash towards Harris was more difficult to overcome than the ageist backlash towards Biden. Otherwise, he never would've run again. The MAGA base was never going to vote for him. So, the election will come down to the Independent Voters and the Democrats who might otherwise stay home. With his debate performance, that assessment of risk regarding the opinions of those two groups has changed. It is difficult to make decisions based on polls, since polls are not accurate, but the shock of viscerally seeing Biden's current condition has been jarring, to say the least? With the Immunity ruling, the publicity of Project 2025 and the recently released Epstein/Trump Pedophilia Rape documents, the risk of a Trump 2nd term has become even more dangerous to Americans and to the World.
Why would anyone who voted for Biden in 2020 to replace Trump either: A. Stay Home B. Vote for Trump C. Vote for someone else to allow Trump BACK INTO office? What acts/policies in the role of POTUS would warrant their change of heart?
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/
in 2016 Biden was old. Y'all knew, everyone knew. Y'all had a chance to pick someone else and y'all didn't. Too many Dem voters, you can knock 'em down with a bag of peanuts they so weak-minded. But be the first to tell someone else, "be TOUGH. fight TOUGH" and they own minds be whipping they ass.
wtf is this article talking about? We’ve had issues with Biden since the 2020 election 😂
I keep hearing about the debate debacle, but reading the transcript, he doesn't sound bad.
The old are supposed to get the fuck out of the way and let the young lead. For fucks sake we've gotten so backwards.
“He’s been this bad for a long time, what’s the big deal?”
Google Project 2025
Not. We know is old 4 years ago and always. the Maga and Trump and Rusia make this a talking point and the media and internet make it a joke day in and out them the media panic and making different narrative. But you see people Trump is a criminal, a Pedo, and sick on the head but not matter what they stay together and embrace Trump. We in the other side destroying Biden and bullying him for being old. What that Fffff Broh really. And the most pathetic thing is the dinosaurs 🦖 at congress and senate are saying hi is to old.
I’m voting for him and Kamala so I’m not worried if he croaks.
Shit is so gd rigged
It isn't so much age, but the blatant fact that he's been senile for a while, despite staff gaslighting.