Trans woman. I have no strong feelings about this. Polyamorous people frequently do have to come out in a similar way- that is to say, there is a lot of pressure from society to be monogamous, and deciding not to cave to that pressure does put the polyamorous in a position where, much like me, they must choose whether to stealth or to be "out". obviously poly people aren't, for example, getting hate crimed on the regular for being poly in the same way trans people are, but i doubt they think that and i don't think using the language of "coming out" necessarily implies an "equality" of oppression between the two.
i also want to push back on the choice/not choice dichotomy. personally, I have known i was trans since i was four years old, so i dont believe its something i chose- however I know other people who *did* explicitly choose to be trans, and i think that kicks ass. when we make our rhetorical stand on "the lgbt did not choose to be this way" it implies a lot of different things even accidentally. it implies we would be less valid if we had "chosen" to be different. it implies we would choose to be "normal" if we had the opportunity. and worst of all, it implies there is some necessary biological component to being gay and trans, and this kind of bio essentialism leads dark places- after all, if I'm trans because of some biological development that occured in the womb, there are LOADS of people who will be highly incentivized to say "okay what is that biological development, how do we stop it from happening again, and how do we reverse it in the people its already happened to?"
edit: typo
edit 2: please do not DM me in favor of eugenics thanks
I really appreciate this answer so much. My husband and I are both bisexual and polyamorous. We recently "came out" to our circle.
Poly/nonmonogamous people can receive horrible hate for their lifestyle, even losing jobs or children (or at least having to go through the hell of possibly losing their kids if some concern troll calls cps on them). They can lose their family and friends, and face all kinds of societal blowback.
It's absolutely not the same as the statistical likelihood of being murdered or homeless, but it's certainly a decision (to come out) that has some significant risks, depending on one's station in life. It's something that a lot of people hide because if fear, and so revealing that part of them is a "coming out."
I personally kinda always knew I was nonmonogamous but didn't have the language or understanding to identify it until society at large began to define it.
Much like many gay or trans people always felt different, but didn't realize why or how, until they learned about queerness from someone or somewhere else, the things clicked into place.
I really appreciate your point about the choice/not choice thing and the implications for eugenics.
I actually agree on the choice/not choice. I think for many poly people, it can be either or. My ex gf who was also trans said she had known she was poly before she even knew there was a word for it. Some choose it and some feel it is part of their identity.
Thank you, thank you! I find it a very weird gatekeeping perspective I feel is intended to divide poly and queer communities; when, at least in my experience, the overlap and intersection of the two communities makes it difficult to have one without the other: I almost can't even fathom being poly and NOT intersecting with queerness in some way.
And while oppression is not congruent, the fact that anyone can be legally fired for ENM but not other identities means that the protections for other identities can be put at risk: now your boss who wants to fire you for being gay or hispanic has a safe excuse in firing you for polyamory.
With no legal recourse there is a legit reason why poly people are forced to live secretly. If someone is 'coming out' becasue they got caught cheating is one thing, someone finally telling their family who they are is another.
It bothers me when I see it as “I’ve developed a crush on a coworker and need to ‘come out’ to my mono partner that I’m suddenly poly” or “my partner has just come out as poly and has feelings for a friend”
I think this is a very big piece if it. The damage of presenting converting a mono dynamic to polyamory as akin to rejecting someone due to being homosexual is very real and it is why we constantly have distressed monos begging for help on how to manage their partners "coming out."
Yeah, I think it's telling that the people who "come out" to their monogamous partner are never saying "I've realized that I'll be happy if **you** date other people." It's always how they themselves feel and want other partners, never about what their partner wants. And it breaks down right around when their partner wants to be able to date too.
I made [this post](/r/polyamory/comments/17ce7wn/repeat_after_me_polyamory_is_a_commitment_to/) to link to both the Polybombers and Polybombed when someone "comes out" as Poly.
I do quite like the idea of a monogamous couple having a cup of tea and one of them going,
“Look, there’s something I need to tell you. No, please listen, it’s an important part of who I am and I need you to know I’m still the person you’ve always loved, but…I just need you to know…if you wanted to date other people I’d be willing to manage my feelings about it. I guess it’s just part of who I am”
No joke, that's how I felt with my ex. I WANTED him to date other people, I think probably because I was trying to figure out a way to make him finally be happy and feel secure. But you can't force someone into feelings.
actually, for the longest while (way before I actually cared to start dating, demi here) I kept being annoyed at the whole "cheating" thing in media?
So I had elaborate conversations where I would tell my imagined partner "look I don't care if you 'cheat' if you just tell me about it? like I just give you permission to go for it if you feel you want to, just don't go making it this whole hidden secret"
and well, when I way later realized I was polyam, and jumped into actually dating directly practicing polyamory? Well now I see how that might've been related tbh.
I agree, I think this is what's bothered me the most and we need to push back on that type of usage as a community.
But after reading some of the comments, I agree that some people actually do need to "come out" to family in a similar way to LGBT folks, I just think there just needs to be some respect towards the origins of the phrase if that makes sense?
I’m queer and poly. Everyone knows I’m queer. Not everyone knows I’m poly because it would blow up my relationship with my family. I say it’s fine because it still lives outside the margins of hetero mono normative life and I personally don’t feel like being poly is a choice for me. I could “choose” to be monogamous to get along in the world better similarly to when I was told I should “choose” to straight. If you don’t like the term “coming out” with being poly then don’t use it but I don’t think you get to decide on my behalf that I shouldn’t say it.
Queer and trans here.
I think there are two ways people use "coming out" as poly.
There are bad actors who use it as an excuse to put their previously monogamous relationship into a poly under duress situation. In that sense, it really irritates me, and I do agree that it's disrespectful.
But then there are people for whom "coming out" as poly is very similar to coming out as queer or trans, in the sense that it draws attention, it fundamentally may change one's relationship with friends and family, it has implications on jobs, etc. in other words, revealing oneself to be poly has consequences, often negative ones. It's not _the same_ as being queer, but that doesn't diminish the validity of a poly person's experience of marginalization.
So I'd encourage folks to step away from the oppression olympics. And also to move away from the binary of whether something is a choice. As another commenter pointed out, essentialism isn't the best foundation for fostering greater equity and acceptance in society.
Yeah, thanks for pointing out the issue with "choice"
I typed out a whole paragraph, but it became kind of rambly, and I'm not sure it said what I wanted to say.
But agreed, essentialism is not a great framework to address these questions
I'd very gently like to disagree with you, as a trans/queer person. Polyamory isn't a choice for some people, the same way monogamy isn't for some. Telling people in your life you're poly is a huge deal, and can incur a lot of the same mistreatment coming out as queer can.
You're correct in that cis/het people do not struggle with the same issues the queer community does, but I feel we can offer a little more kindness and direction in this circumstance rather than completely negating the very real struggles being poly can incur.
Yeah, thanks. My totally cishet partner is helping his parents through a family emergency right now, and he can't even discuss with them that I might have a conflict and need support from him as well.
He has tried to have the conversation with them, and they absolutely threw a fit. It's pretty clear that his choice is between being openly poly, or having any kind of relationship with his family of origin.
This is not too different from having to hide a same-sex partner because of your family's disapproval.
I agree that you don't just "come out" as poly to your mono partner, but that's a completely different situation and usage.
Very much appreciate this comment. The choice/identity debate is so weird in this sub, I've never seen it be so militant as it is here. People trying to police the identity of others is awful. Yes, polyamory is a choice for some people, we call them ambiamorous. It doesn't apply to everyone.
Polyamory isn’t a choice for me and I dealt with decades of self loathing because of the societal pressures and imprints. I have a child who is trans and they have experienced the same thing with a different perspective. I lost my whole family with the exception of my kids when I left my husband to be true to who I am. According to my family, ‘I wrecked my marriage to be a wh*re’. Even now, my partners can’t be open at work about who I am because they would lose their jobs. It’s not the same as the LGBTQ community and everything they’ve gone through and fought for, but it’s close. Add in D/s and it adds a whole other layer of judgment and crap to deal with. Going against any societal norms involves courage and determination to be authentic and be happy. It is a form of coming out, it just looks different for everyone.
My biggest issue with it is when the language is co-opted and weaponized... like "I just came out to my mono partner and am using queer language in an attempt to guilt and manipulate them into opening our relationship whether they want to or not because it's implied that they're being phobic if they can't just accept me as I am"
I’m queer and poly. My “telling my friends and family and work colleagues “ I’m poly was waaaay harder than my “coming out” as queer. For me, it’s NOT A CHOICE to be poly in the same way, it’s NOT A CHOICE I’m queer.
I don’t use “coming out” for poly, specifically so I don’t piss off people (like OP, seemingly) who want to gatekeep the phrase.
I’m guessing it’s only ambiamorous people who think it’s a choice to be poly.
Nah, a lot of the people on this forum who insist they’re innately poly and their Innate Internal Polyness Is Not A Choice are actively in monogamous relationships that they keep choosing every day.
See I honestly don't get that. I'm polyamorous. It isn't a choice for me. Reciprocal monogamy makes me feel trapped and miserable and I end up resenting my partner even of they're awesome within a year.
Because Im polyamorous. I can't imagine agreeing to or staying in a monogamous relationship. Because they make me miserable. I also don't expect someone who is monogamous to want to date me or stay in a relationship with me, because I assume polyamory would make them equally miserable.
Could I technically consent to monogamy? Sure. Would I ever knowing myself and what makes me feel happy and safe and myself? Nope
Same way being demi means I can technically consent to ONS with strangers, but I never would because it's just not pleasurable for me and I have zero desire for it. I feel the same way about monogamy as I do ONSs. If the options were monogamy or perpetual singlehood and celibacy, I'd choose perpetual singlehood and celibacy rather than a monogous relationship, just like if my only option for sex was ONSs, id choose to remain celibate rather than engage in that type of sex. Like technically I have a choice in all those situations, but only one that actually works for *me*, so is that really a choice?
Why do you think I need this explained?
I’ve never agreed to monogamy. I didn’t want it.
This condescending “you must not even really be polyamorous” nonsense is exactly what bloo is talking about.
Go explain this nonsense to folks in monogamous relationships claiming to be poly.
>This condescending “you must not even really be polyamorous” nonsense is exactly what bloo is talking about.
Where did I say that? Do point it out, please. I just said I dont get why anyone would stay in a relationship that made them miserable because for me that isn't a valid option. It just ends up hurting everyone involved. Not just with polyamory, but anything. wantingkids/not wanting kids. Wanting to move coubtries/not wanting to do so. Wanting a traditional marriage/not wanting one.
>Go explain this nonsense to folks in monogamous relationships claiming to be poly.
Why? It wouldnt do anything because that's not what it's about for that specific subgroup. Not really. It's just a convenient excuse to try to manipulate and pressure their partners. I don't bother with manipulators or people who try to use sexuality or mental health or anything like that to try to pressure their partners into behaving how they want them to or agreeing to things they wouldn't otherwise. People acting in bad faith exist in all walks of life, but I've never seen the point on expending energy on them. Avoiding them and warning others is a better and more practical use of time and energy
I am queer and view poly as more my identity than my choice. I have currently been *choosing* to not actively date poly, but I still consider myself poly and my partner knows it might be part of my choice later.
Poly feels like just another extension of the *way that I love* the same way that being pi or pan feels to me.
I came out 10 different ways while figuring out my sexuality, first to bi, then lesbian, then bi, pan, poly. Finally came to the conclusion that none of it really matters, I just love the way I love. And I'm not going to keep anyone else from using a phrase while they're figuring themselves out too.
Queer transman here. Doesn’t bother me in the slightest. With how society is so cishet mono… any deviation from that is met with shall we say interesting conversations. If folk aren’t living in a poly closet under the stairs, they have to come out and say it.
I'm about as queer as they get. I'm a transgender butch lesbian, I'm poly, I have several queer platonic relationships, and I'm into kink. So I can say this with my whole chest:
Polyam community 🤝 Kink community 🤝 Queer community
Consenting adults doing things in the privacy of their bedrooms that makes people big mad
There's no language police. We stand together in solidarity.
I think it depends how you define coming out as poly. If you just mean telling people in your life that you’re practicing polyamory, then I think it’s a completely valid phrase.
I just hate when people say they “came out” to their partners by announcing that they’re poly. I’m a believer that poly is something you do not something you are. Dropping that you need to fuck other people on your partner you’re in a mono relationship with is shitty and shows you’ve done no serious research on the matter.
That's just weaponized as identity by people who are trying to force new terms on existing structures.
poly can be identity and it can also be something you practice. People who are ambi are more likely to be thinking of it as just something they practice.
For others, it can be a relationship orientation. It can be tied to identity even if they do not CURRENTLY have multiple partners. I'm one of those people. It's who I am.
Douchenozzles trying to cram a 3 way on their wife weaponizing the concept of coming out give us all a bad name.
Alternatively, one does not need to fuck anyone to be poly. But finding that the way your brain works is either 'all in' or 'professional distance because it's not worth going all in like I will want to do' and this constantly leading to a very lonely life because you're not 'allowed' more than one close, talk about anything and everything intimately life partner when you're a straight man...it can very much feel like you have to 'closet' a very major part of you that causes a great deal of pain and distress in your life, and considering loving people is not something wrong or harmful, wanting to 'come out' of said closet and be able to live openly and honestly... At the very least it's easy to see why it's such a strong correlation to using this type of language. I'm certainly personally open to hearing more of 'the other side' on this, as with all things. It's something I've pondered myself numerous times. Ultimately I think the usage of the verbiage isn't harmful and certainly not intended to be harmful, so there's other things I'll spend a lot more time worrying about. But I also acknowledge I'm not a member of the rainbow community and there are certainly struggles there in society I'll simply never be subjected to, and thus probably am not taking into consideration.
Edit: that said, I also acknowledge that there are likely plenty of 'bad actors' who would use it as an excuse or misuse in unhealthy ways as well
I only hate it when one person of a monogamous couple ‘comes out as poly’. You can’t do that. Being honest about your feelings is okay, discussing them is okay, but just telling your SO you’re poly now, is a dumb and low excuse to cheat on your partner.
At least this is what i often read in this subreddit when someone asks for advice about their partner coming out as poly.
Whenever i would tell my mum i’m poly, i could call that ‘coming out as poly’, but that’s a whole different story. Me and my NP are practicing nonmonogamy for almost a decade now, in an ethical way so there was no ‘coming out’ between us, only honesty about feelings that were developing. For example our relationship started monogamous, then monogamish, then fully open, and now poly after realizing we develop deeper feelings for our other partners. Everything with consent and not taking it too fast.
I don’t think that “choice” is the best litmus test, honestly, nor do I think that interesting or edifying convos come from that, honestly.
Plenty of people out there now who have never been mono, and never probably will. Argument around that is silly. (That said, every relationship,
And the agreements we build around them are a choice, so…🤷♀️) Even if it’s an orientation, that honestly doesn’t change much. Plenty of things that aren’t choices don’t fall under the big rainbow.
I *do* think it’s fair to discuss appropriation vs. linguistic slide.
And I think it’s appropriate to discuss the LGBTQIA+ as a historical coalition, both culturally and politically, and the experience of “coming out” as a culturally shared experience if you are a part of the big rainbow flag, and how it feels to watch that experience, and it’s import, culturally, snatched and grabbed by another subculture.
Even if non-monogamy, as a behavior is behavior that is entirely out of our hands, that doesn’t change the appropriative nature of cis het allo folks talking about “coming out”.
A lack of respect and knowledge of queer history (which a lot of cis het allo folks lack) and queer culture fuel this idea that any behavior that isn’t a choice, and has something, maybe to do with pants feels or love *has to be part of the LGBTQIA+*
It doesn’t. Something can be difficult, and hard and be it’s own difficult struggle.
The historic depth and importance of “coming out” in the queer community is exactly why I rebuke the use of this term by polyamorists. Also I’m sorry but kids aren’t being thrown out of their homes for being poly, period.
… except I have a friend who was. Whose family later barely accepted them back, and then beat up their other partner (even after they'd been introduced directly and it looked like it was going okay at first) for "being a cheater" and threatened to shoot them if they ever came back?
More importantly why are we doing oppression olympics to decide if its "enough of a struggle" when people ARE afraid to tell their family and friends they're polyamorous. Where people feel they'd rather hide all their partners, or try and "choose someone to front" and get pushed into a heirarchy when they just want their family to accept BOTH their partners.
Just because its more often accepted? just because most people don't directly know someone being thrown out for being polyamorous?
Or is it because we hear too many of the bad stories of people "coming out" to their partner when really they want an excuse to cheat / are already cheating. Do we have to let bad actors ruin it for those that actually need the metaphor?
Yup.
I have mentioned this before, but I have been community building with young, queer and trans kids who are houseless and doing survival level sex work for a few years now.
Polyam folks aren’t exactly flooding my DM’s with offers of help, so…🤷♀️
Those kids faced very different consequences for being queer than Todd and Jenny, whose mom is really mad that Jenny’s got a boyfriend.
Edit:
And while it’s not the “oppression Olympics” the straight facts are that being queer is not like being polyam for a great number of folks, and the consequences are not the same.
But like, that doesn’t even really matter. Until someone decides that they wanna ride the rainbow flag into legitimacy because they don’t know how little it actually protects folks. Polyam people thinking that “being queer” would offer them much of anything is a giggle fest, honestly. Of the first degree.
Oh yeah didn’t donations toward queer youth and trans women go down after gay marriage was legalized? Something like once that milestone was reached, donations toward LGBTQ orgs went down 70%. That tells you where peoples priorities lie
Yeah, it’s very often a convo that’s wrapped up in BIG FEELS.
But like, it’s not about how hard polyam is for you. It being difficult or stigmatized doesn’t make it part of the LGBTQIA+. 🤷♀️
It's obviously factually true that folks under the rainbow umbrella are at different risk than poly folks. It's also clear to me that nonmonogamy is not part of LGBTQIA+, though I take the point that many folks appear to be ignorantly or maliciously confused on the topic.
But I'm not sure that automatically means the term "coming out" can't be used by marginalized poly folks. It's a discussion to be had in the queer community, and I'm glad we're having it!
And as a side note - it wasn't my queerness or trans identity that led my parents to threaten to cut their support and kick me out, it wasn't my queerness they compared to being a pedophile. It was being poly. Realize this isn't the typical experience, but I wouldn't minimize the potential consequences.
But that isn’t the point. Plenty of people have extraordinarily difficult paths because of things they didn’t choose.
That isn’t the doorway to the LGBTQIA+.
People can use the term however they want. I won’t stop them.
It’s the anger that somehow the “queers got the good protections and they won’t share” that’s problematic.
Nope.
The discussion between Yaller and I is about why queers might have some feels about using the phrase and view it as cultural appropriation, especially when the concept is being weaponized to add a thin veneer of legitimacy over someone’s shitty behavior.
And how much more complex that discussion becomes when out of ignorance, the focus shifts to “oppression” as the key to what makes something LGBTQIA+, instead of recognizing it’s vibrant singular cultural history, and the people who made a whole movement *and who made that happen and how*
It’s a shame when it turns into how the LGBTQIA+ needs to “share” and “look at how many great rights they got!”
Because the rights ain’t great right now. A parade isnt much of a consolation prize when your kid is barred from getting appropriate health care. But heaven help you if you discuss how empty and toothless many of those “protections”are.
You’ll get folks telling you how hard poly is.
But that is it’s own thing. And it is hard, but it’s not the same.
I think it only bothers me when straight cis folks who only date other straight cis folks feel that “coming out” as poly makes them queer. I don’t see the problem with using the term “coming out” when it just means being open about it in daily life. Being polyamorous is something that still comes with quite a bit of social and professional backlash so I understand why that phrase is used.
Being poly is a mindset around relationships not just a relationship structure. The choice is actually dating multiple people at once but that’s not the case for every poly person, for all kinds of reasons.
To me, in a lot of ways, that phrase encompasses the experience of opening oneself up to potential rejection, ridicule and ostracization of people that claim to love you.
In my own queer journey, I also used the term "coming out" to describe telling my parents I was no longer Christian after I deconstructed in adulthood. In a lot of ways that kind of tore up the relationship I had with them, turned conversations into conversion attempts for quite some time and left me with the decision to either cut them off or set aside that part of who I am and never speak to them about it again. Ultimately I decided to just not discuss it with them. In a similar way to my queerness and poly (which I'm not out about) I see many ways coming out can describe this experience that other phrases would fail to accurately portray. It's a huge risk and potential for rejection, why be offended by others relating to that fear and having that experience and naming it as such?
>This is a question specifically for queer/trans people. What do you think of the phrase "coming out" being used by cis/straight people for Polyamory
Im bisexual. In my country I get far more backlash for my polyamory than I do for my sexual orientation. Being with a girl is kinda okay, but not believing in monogamy or marriage? Perish the thought. Even the queer community reacts poorly to it.
Personally, it doesn't bother me in the sense that it is going against societal norms in relationships. And because I think it should be considered a romantic configuration orientation. And should go something like this:
-*A-amorous* (not wanting any romantic relationships)
- *monoamorous*(wanting only one romantic relationship with reciprocal sexual and romantic exclusivity)
- *ambiamorous* (being fine with any relationship configuration)
-*polyamorous* (wanting *only* relationships that do not come with the expectation of sexual or romantic exclusivity.)
Tbf, I started questioning monogamy way before I started questioning my sexuality, and had more push back for the polyamory personally in my country, which is why I started practicing it so late. (which doesn't mean I didn't experience bigotry for dating women, I did, catholic countries gonna catholic.). So I might feel differently if I had. But from where I'm standing polyamory is as much part of my identity as being bisexual or demi is and in my region, goes against the societal norm in very simillar ways, and challenges it far more than homosexuality does. I don't think it needs to be under the queer umbrella, but "coming out" as polyam was honestly almost exactly the same experience as coming out as bi when I was 14 except I didn't lose friends for being bi.
For me polyamory isn't a choice. Or rather, I feel so trapped and controlled in a monogamous relationship that if the options were monogamy or single for life, (and yes that includes remaining celibate) id pick the single for life as the better option for me than a monogamous relationship.
Polyamory isn't a "choice" for me. It's the only relationship configuration I'm happy in, or open to. The inly one I will ever consider. I am polyamorous. Monogamy won't ever be on the table with me, for any reason.
As a queer woman, I’m less bothered by the usage of “coming out” and more bothered by straight, cis people who feel entitled to queer spaces after coming out as poly.
If I’m in a conservative environment and context comes up where I have or want to talk about a partner I think about as much whether I address them as „my partner“ or „one of my partners“ (which feels a lot more comfortable to me, in general) as I am about whether I’ll address that I’m bi.
Both of them don’t make particularly uncomfortable or scared, but sometimes I just don’t want to lead the conversations.
Coming out as trans feels like different level of coming out than either of these things, because I legit am worried of their reaction, not just potentially annoyed.
Look, I'm a non-binary queer person that had to come out first as a lesbian and later as non-binary. Coming out as poly carries all the same stress and fear and need to decide if this person/situation is safe.
I also want to push back against the idea that coming out as poly is without social risk. While we have not seen hate crimes against poly folks there are still risks to social and financial safety that go along with being poly. My job has protections for both sexual identity and gender identity, but nothing that covers me as a poly person. I cannot freely discuss my living situation or relationship status, which very much feels like being in the closet again.
Also, look, I bitch about cis het folks as much as the next queer chafing at social expectations, but we have gotta stop acting like every person who isn't queer is our enemy. They aren't taking anything from you by using the term coming out, they are sharing an experience of fear and expectation of rejection. That can be a place to find common ground and allyship. Don't be so quick to throw that out.
I'm queer, and I personally don't think coming out is appropriate to use unless you're a regency era young woman who is finally allowed to go to parties outside the family circle. /s
Relevant: a history of the phrase “coming out.” Early 20th century gay culture borrowed the phrase from debutante balls to signify entrance into gay society - it had nothing to do with declaring your identity to the broader world until after Stonewall.
https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/the-history-of-coming-out-from-secret-gay-code-to-popular-political-protest
I would say it’s still a coming out because it’s against societal norms and expectations, and it is something that is frequently attacked even by the left.
So yeah - by no means does that mean that being openly poly is “the same” as being LGBTQ+ (although many poly people are bi in my experience) but it’s a spectrum of difficulty and highly contextual, not black and white.
Bi/omni poly person here. I'm not "out" to my family in either sense. Honestly the discussion when I come out for my sexuality with my family will be immensely intertwined to the discussion where I tell them about being poly. It, in fact, may wind up being the exact same conversation - and the polyamory is what's going to break my family's heart moreso than the sexuality (mostly just cuz my brother is gay so they've been through that part before; he's ENM as well but he's also closeted to our folks about it because of that).
So yeah anyway I don't know what other term to use because to me that "coming out" is going to be way bigger and harder than the other, more typical one. Lol. Suggestions?
I understand why it becomes irksome- especially when most people using it aren't at all AWARE of that greater context. We had at least 3 posts last week that basically boiled down to "I want the fun of non mono non hetero dating but not any of the risk or responsibility and how dare you call me out on that."
Its exhausting and it's okay to just say "you're ignorant" and provide no further labor.
But as a cultural communication tool, it fits the bill better than anything else I know of in English for the experience being conveyed.
Old timer here. “Coming out” as poly meant revealing to your family/friends (possibly other people) that you are in a structure that is polyamorous (having multiple partners) in the past. Not in an individual intent/sexuality way like we often see nowadays (which is appropriative as putting ones relationship preference under LGBTQI+ umbrella, and can be coercive if used to convince a partner in a monogamous structure to open up as a part of authentic self/sexuality).
I completely agree. I realized I was doing a lot of immortal things that did make me feel bad because of constructs I was told growing up. For some of us we can get that a lot younger age, but some of us don’t figure it out until we’re much older and exposed to a healthy way of expression.
Yea no I don’t agree with this. Coming out as poly was wayyyy harder for me than coming out as pan. I’m still not fully out to my family and I’ve been in an established poly relationship for over 2 and a half years. Everyone’s experience is different and this does feel like gatekeeping to me.
It’s a combination of internal desires and external agreements. ‘Coming out’ during a monogamous relationship is a bad take- they should say they’re dealing with these feelings etc. I do believe you come out to family, coworkers and friends in ways that can be devastating. I’ve had multiple friends lose jobs parents and promotions from having poly relationships
As a bi I think I agree with your edits and what you added. It doesn't hold the same historical weight/connotations as coming out as queer does (i.e. poly people generally didn't and do not experience violence against them for being poly, etc.). I don't think it particularly upsets me when it's used, however, I definitely will feel some type of way if they try and place it on an equal historical ground/weight as coming out as queer as I find that to be highly inaccurate.
Bisexual poly cis guy here, though admittedly most of my experience has been het leaning. Revealing I’m either poly or bi to someone feels very similar. Both can be perceived as “why are you telling me about your sex life”. I feel like the poly is more engrained/innate in me than the bisexuality. I realize others feel differently.
Do you have a suggestion for alternative language?
Im always gonna think it’s corny but comments here are gonna show you why I don’t touch this specific convo with a 10-ft pole lol.
It’s like when I found out coming out wasn’t originally about telling the public you’re queer, it was about coming out to the local queer community. Or how the way people popularly use assigned gender at birth is straight up a misuse of how it was intended. Queer people are gonna relate to incorrect stuff too. And ultimately it’s debatable whether it’s incorrect because there’s always gonna be a group of people that are like “well I’m queer and idc” or “I’m queer and I see the parallels” or “I’m queer and I use this term myself and the fact I use it at all is affirming so people have to get over it”. Which technically all three of those are valid arguments, and I’m not the boss of “coming out”.
I’m unconvinced that coming out as poly is necessary for us to say. But I’m just one lil person so 🤷🏾 I tried to popularize “the term cheating is for mono people” but if poly folk wanna use it to describe when their man who chronically lies *surprisingly* continues to do so in their polyamorous relationship (even though I swear to god the trend outside of this sub and throughout the years has been that the use of this term by polyamorists is a symptom monogamy hangover) I really can’t stop them. I’m on your hill tho OP!!
It's not disrespectful. It's coming out. Witches do it too, coming out of the broom closet is what is referred to as.
And poly for me, just like my queerness, is not a choice. I am poly. The way I respond to relationships with people is naturally different than other people. It's been like this since I started dating, and it won't go away; i will never be "normal" no matter how much I'd wish. So yes, I had to come out.
You need to be less concerned about what language people are using, and more concerned about the people you interact with. I don't tolerate people in my life who behave in the way you've described, not because of language, because they behave like assholes.
I'm not sure how I feel about this tbh.
I'm a cishet man, I've never been particularly comfortable with language like "coming out" in this context. But I have had to sit my parents down and have "the talk" with them, explaining to them that I'm in a poly relationship.
Not sure that's the same deal though. I guess I've never really thought of Poly as anything like a sexual orientation or gender expression. Experiencing sexual or romantic feelings outside of the bounds of a relationship is really common even among mono people. Poly to me has always been more of a framework for allowing people to ethically act on those feelings.
It doesn't feel like a sexual identity in the same way as LGBTQ+ would, I don't think. But then I don't know personally what those identities would feel like either, so not sure...
The term coming out within non monogamous relationships seem to be frequently used to give unnecessary legitimacy to someone decision to wanna fuck their co worker without feeling bad.
I gotta come out to my wife as Polyam so me fucking with woman I am having an emotional affair with for a few week is okay.
That kinda shit which is daily fodder in this subreddit.
I know generalization but not like I got hard data on this.
I assume when people come out as poly this is the situation. They are looking for some validation to break commitments they made and validate their cheating.
I am Poly. Pansexual. EnBy.
It's both a lifestyle and a orientation.
I'll explain:
It's both or either or depending on how you view yourself and the subject. For example: I would say I AM POLY because *I have compersion* and I nearly always *have emotional attachments to more than one person*. I cannot comfortably do mono, feels like lying.
People do not necessarily have both compersion or feelings for more people.
There are people who *only focus on one person* and *do not feel compersion* regarding seeing their person with others; these people I would say are inherently MONO. Now there are people who feel for multiple people but CHOOSE mono.
There are people who love multiple and CHOOSE poly...
However: *No one owes anyone else to try poly for coming out to their mono partner under the guise of sexual identity*. And I think that's where the issue lies... Too often people have used identity to excuse poor behaviour. Take Polybombing out of the equation, and it's a none issue to be both: identity and lifestyle. I am poly, but I choose the lifestyle.
Just as the LGBTQA+ people have questions about coming out to friends and family. Worry about behaving poly out in public and how others may react. It might not be to the same level but we do loose people. We are stigmatized at times. Seen as possibly disease spreading vermin, unclean, immoral etc. Then there's the question of things like marriage rights; poly people can marry but only one person at a time.
I might not be killed for being poly but there is still hate there.
To me poly is *othered by society*. It goes against *mono normative rules*. Similar to *ace* it isn't trans or gay, but it isn't what society sees as *"normal"* so for me it is allied with LGBTQA+ as they face similar issues.
Which kind of coming out?
"Coming out" to a partner as if it's suddenly something that demands action of them, likely "well I'm poly so now WE must at least consider it?" It's at best a bit clunky and at worst trying to force the issue coercively. If it's something you can know about yourself, it's something your partner can know about themselves, and so you should respect their "no" in not wanting to explore it.
And frankly what it "really takes to be poly" isn't loving/wanting multiple people (that's most people IMO), it's the ability to love someone who shares affection for others and give them space. For me, that feels more like a skill than any innate identity, and in "Mono/Poly" relationships is only something the Mono person in that relationship is doing.
On the other hand, "coming out" to friends or family that you have poly relationships? Yeah that can be tough. It all comes down to the values the people in your life have. Some will be cool with it, some (who even are "progressive" on LGBT topics) might not be. It can be very personally tough. No doubts on that.
i say come out about so many things. "my dad didnt handle it well when i came out as bi." "i came out as trans to my sister." "i came out to my mom as polyamorous but i dont think she remembers." "so i came out to my coworker as a marxist." "oh no have i not come out to you as a folk punk enjoyer yet?"
its just useful language to describe the process of revealing parts of your life that are going to be presumed another way unless you mention it. like, alternatives often imply that you were deceitful or at least secretive until you shared the information. coming out kind of explains that it was mostly a matter of correcting a normative assumption.
that said, I'm weird about identity. polyamory is a choice about how i date based on preferences, but i see my bisexuality similarly? my preferences can change. my transness, similarly, feels like a thing i needed to DO more than a thing i AM, which isn't too different from polyamory. and like, in my social circles, ive gotten way more crap about liking folk punk than liking more than one gender or being a girl or dialectical materialism.
so like, i get that "coming out" is very queer language, but why cant we apply that language to similar situations. thats sort of how language works?
I'm bi and poly and it doesn't hurt me for someone to want to, "come out," as anything. Poly, queer, a baseball fan, etc. No skin off my nose.
Just my opinion. Everyone is entitled to theirs.
Hi u/Rumby_Tumby thanks so much for your submission, don't mind me, I'm just gonna keep a copy what was said in your post. Unfortunately posts sometimes get deleted - which is okay, it's not against the rules to delete your post!! - but it makes it really hard for the human mods around here to moderate the comments when there's no context. Plus, many times our members put in a lot of emotional and mental labor to answer the questions and offer advice, so it's helpful to keep the source information around so future community members can benefit as well.
Here's the original text of the post:
This is a question specifically for queer/trans people. What do you think of the phrase "coming out" being used by cis/straight people for Polyamory?
For me, it seems like at least uninformed, at most disrespectful of LGBTQA+ people and their experiences, and shouldn't be used for poly. It really bothers me that our language is being taken in this way, and not sure if my concerns are valid.
Poly is a choice of relationship structure.
Being LGBTQA+ obviously isn't a choice.
Edit: I would like to push back on people attributing some sort of malace to my post. I wanted to find out how the rest of the queer community feels, I'm not trying to gatekeep, just trying to figure out the general consensus.
It's just made me feel uncomfortable in the past, and I'm allowed to express that.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/polyamory) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’m queer and poly. I don’t have a problem with cishet people “coming out” as one thing or the other. “Coming out” didn’t originate as a gay thing anyway, it’s language queer people adopted but is originally from upper class circles where young people “come out” and make their debut at the ball or whatever.
The fact of the matter is that being in or looking for polyamorous relationships faces social stigma, is kind of taboo, and is not well understood by many people. If you’re cis, straight, and want to “come out” as breaking a social norm in how you love people, go ahead.
Transman here, 37yo. I honestly don't care. As a dad and an adult strugling with mcas and RA, I have much worse problems than someone's semantic choice. We need tostop sweating the small stuff. Seriously
As a queer man I felt it as hard to come out about being queer as it felt to come out as being poly when telling about it to my childhood friends who had not seen that side of me. Totally valid expression/use of term IMO.
Poly transbian here. I view all three of these aspects as similarly inherent to my being and am therefore not a big fan of the "poly is purely a choice of structure" argument. So I have no issue with cishet poly people using the phrase so long as they remember that coming out to someone can often be a terrifying gamble and rejection is a very real possibility.
My poly discussion group recently talked about this! Although I am queer, I have never had to “come out” to the people I actually care about or to my job or anything because I was privileged to have an adoptive family that was mostly queer and enm/poly themselves, and an accepting employer. I can’t say that I have ever experienced a lot of the issues that other people experience when “coming out.”
I do understand how it could be upsetting that poly people use the term, as they have a choice in their lifestyle and can easily hide it.
However, none of us came up with a better term that fit. A lot of the group had told family or jobs about their other partners and had awful experiences. Some don’t talk to family anymore or lost their jobs over it. So I can see how “coming out” might feel like the best fit for those people.
I think terminology and philosophies get co-opted all the time by people with ill intentions so I don’t think that is a valid reason to be concerned about use or the terminology, bc a certain amount of the burden of knowledge also falls on the people that are being given those excuses. Using your example; if a mono spouse “comes out” to their partner and uses that as an excuse to cheat, the partner also should be asking questions and doing research to decide if that is acceptable within their relationship. I know that people will have different opinions than me and thats totally fine and valid. I think it’s good to have open discussion and think it will help in finding better terminology. :)
Pan Transfem here.
So ... Being poly probably isn't part of the LGBTQ space but it is part of the larger gender, sexuality and relationship minority (GSRM) space.
Given that there are NOT legal protections for being poly, it's almost socially worse in some regards than being gay for example. I suspect that once being trans is more accepted the next culture war probably will be on alternative lifestyles like being poly.
Ironically it is riskier to come out as poly because of the reduced protections. "Coming out" is more of announcing that you are partaking in a drastic social change or taboo and I think that "coming out" as poly totally fits the situation.
Plus it's just linguistic short hand and easy to say.
> I suspect that once being trans is more accepted the next culture war probably will be on alternative lifestyles like being poly.
. . . what the literal fuck.
My country is literally making abortion illegal again and you think the ONLY TWO SOCIAL ISSUES are . . . trans acceptance and polyamory.
> Ironically it is riskier to come out as poly because of the reduced protections.
WHAT FUCKING PROTECTIONS? The ones that are keeping queer youth from being literally attacked *by public schools boards*? The ones that keep you from eviction for being queer? (Those don’t even exist in many jurisdictions, fyi.) The safety from hate crimes and sexual assault?
You know HALF of bisexual women are raped during their lives, right? HALF. And you think ~social taboo~ is the hard part of being queer. 🙄🙄
I don't remember seeing them type anywhere that they thought those were the only two social issues. There's no question at all that the fight for the queer/trans etc community is still very much ongoing. Period. Also worth noting though, the lacking protections you pointed out, would probably also apply to poly people...
>My country is literally making abortion illegal again and you think the ONLY TWO SOCIAL ISSUES are . . . trans acceptance and polyamory.
I guess that could be a low media literacy interpretation of what I said. So not sure if trolling or not. I didn't say those were the ONLY issues, just 2 relevant to the discussion at hand.
>You know HALF of bisexual women are raped during their lives, right? HALF. And you think ~social taboo~ is the hard part of being queer. 🙄🙄
It's horrifying and awful but I think you are reading that because I like waffles I'm on a genocidal campaign against pancakes.
>WHAT FUCKING PROTECTIONS?
[like these? Fair housing, equal employment. etc. ](https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/lgbtq-rights#are-lgbtq-students-protected-from-discrimination-in-schools)
I mean, it sort of is coming out, the fear of rejection from family members is there, the worry people won't see you the same. The fact that you might be told to keep it quiet and don't tell the older members of your family.
For me it was easy to come out as poly, for my girlfriend it was really hard, her family accepted she has a girlfriend and I've been in her life for more than a decade, I held her nieces and nephews as babies. Suddenly telling them that she also has a boyfriend was uncomfortable and definitely counts as coming out in my mind.
As a queer trans woman who *cannot participate in monogamy or perform its expectations because I feel like I am being chipped away*, I very much disagree with you OP and people can pry "coming out as poly" from my cold, dead hands. Being polyamorous is not a "choice" for me, it is a fundamental aspect of how I approach and build relationships with others. I could make a choice not to *act* on it, just like I could have made a choice not to transition, or not to date other women, but just like how I'd still be trans and I'd still be queer if I made those choices I would still fundamentally *be* polyamorous.
That said, you are allowed to feel however you feel about it in your own personal life, just as those who do use the phrase are. 🤷🏽♀️
I’m queer and I use the language of “coming out” when talking about polyamory. Sure, it’s a choice, but you’re still taking a big risk telling your family, friends, coworkers or employers because it’s unconventional, misunderstood, and not widely accepted.
Bi and non-binary here. I think it's valid to say "coming out" - including to partners because it's not like people don't also come out to their partners as gay, lesbian, bi, trans, etc. and that can affect the relationship including ending it??? - and I don't think that it's a "lifestyle choice" for all of us, certainly not for me. Just like being bi, I had an urge (a STRONG one) to be polyam before I even had the language for it, in MIDDLE school (elementary school for bi).
I would personally feel uncomfortable using that language, although telling my friends, and conservative family especially, felt like discussing a very taboo thing that is responded to very negatively in society.
Workplace and general discrimination is very real, and there are no legal protections for ENM/Poly folks. An ex-meta of mine lost two jobs in one year because coworkers or management overheard private conversations while on the phone at the workplace, and was summarily called to the office and fired when It was found out they were Poly.
I know it's not the same as having to worry about getting physically attacked like in places in the US, let alone (other) very religiously conservative places in the world, yet repercussions still exist.
I'm not straight, but I did marry a man, so take that information as you will.
"Our" language.
You don't own language.
Language is transitory, and it evolves near constantly.
That’s honestly, the core of the problem.
Polyamory, as a cultural movement, needs to stand on its own feet, and define itself outside of the LGBTQIA+.
They are separate struggles. The LGBTQIA+ community isn’t “asking for equality” and “not being understanding”
It’s a historic and cultural coalition that polyam is not part of. Full stop. Non-monogamy is certainly a part of queer culture for some queers, but it’s a part of a lot of lives that aren’t queer, too.
What meaningful barrier has been set up for you here?
And how does it justify your statement that folks in the LGBTQIA+ are being hypocritical for actively fighting against their own oppression?
That’s some super gross victim blaming shit. The ten year old trans kid in Florida who can no longer get appropriate medical care has a problem. The queers are busy right now. Dunno if you noticed, but if you live in the US right now, we are in the middle of the largest queer migration in history.
People are leaving their homes and their families.
That is a separate struggle from what polyam families face. When polyam and non-monogamous people organize and figure out what allyship looks like, as their own thing, and not look to the big rainbow flag to save them, polyam folks will find a movement of their own.
Oh, where?
Like, Poland? Cause gay rights are going so *swimmingly* there? Maybe Italy? Known for their *progressive* stances on homosexuality because of the outsize influence of the Catholic Church? Maybe Greece? Hungary?
I wouldn’t elevate Europe to a queer utopia, especially considering your behavior and your words. If you are the example of happy euro queer, I’ll pass. You’re ignorant and entitled, and have some big issues.
This actually doesn’t sound like that at all. Because history and culture told a very different story than the exclusionary narrative. You can’t erase Marcia, or who was at Stonewall.
There is no “infighting” because while non-monogamy has been part of the queer communities fabric, it’s also got its own history in the cis het allo community as well. Should that be erased? Or acknowledged?
Why is a conversation “getting worked up”?
A grasp of history, and a knowledge of global current events is hardly “worked up”
Being curious as to why someone who’s mono and a self-loathing queer feels the need to victim shame seems natural to me.
Are you worked up? Because I am not.
If you are perhaps a walk to clear your head is in order? Suggesting that everyone else is activated, simply because you are? Not the greatest assumption.
But there is a part of the LGBTQIA+ collation, historically, that is specifically about gender, not desire. Intersex and trans folks have always been part of that. And that has nothing to do with sexuality.
Which is why a lot of folks mistakenly want to focus on the “not a choice” aspect of the LGBTQIA+ and want to ride its coat tails into legitimacy.
My polyam doesn’t have anything to do with my sexual orientation, or my sexuality, honestly.
I just like, and thrive in non exclusive relationships.
I have literally never been in a monogamous relationship. My sexual desire is a different topic.
The lack of choice isn’t what binds the LGBTQIA+ together. Plenty of other non-choice minorities that aren’t explicitly LGBTQIA+ who have legitimate struggles, who don’t want or need legitimization as explicitly queer, through the LGBTQIA+.
And choice, or lack of it, isn’t what stops polyam from being a part of LGBTQIA+.
History and circumstances formed that collation. And while “lack of choice” and being “born this way” certainly play a big part in the legitimization and acceptance of, say, gay people, it isn’t the magic ticket to wide open acceptance, globally that many folks seem to think it is.
A lack of choice isn’t the key buy in that many folks seem to think it is.
so sad to see all these well meaning people forced at gunpoint to become homophobes bc a gay person was mildly annoyed at their word choice...truly, they wanted better than this for themselves, but the big bad Queers forced their hand...
pretty good con you've got going here. if you blame "the queers" for their own oppression, every time they get upset about it, you have more "proof" of how right you are.
im gonna give it to you exactly as straight as you think you just gave it to me.
you haven't cracked the code on LGBT rights with an appeasement doctrine. conformity to a cishet society will not save us. being quiet, good little gays will not get us liberation. the right wing wants us dead for who we are, not what we do. there is no amount of quiet wholesome gayness which right wing American society will tolerate. 96 is in your username, so you should have been alive for Oberfell V Hodges. consult your memory. don't you recall conservatives using your exact arguments to warn against same sex marriage? don't you remember hearing "i dont care if you're gay i just dont want my kids seeing it"?
what do you think it says about your argument that those people were all clearly wrong and bigoted? what do you think it says about your beliefs as a bi person that you are parroting conservative talking points designed explicitly to oppress you? why do you think being bisexual shields you from internalizing homophobia?
edit: typos, word choice
In my opinion, some people are wired to have a strong preference for non-monogamy, some for monogamy, some are more ambivalent. Polyamory is definitely a choice- it’s a relationship structure that you choose to adhere to.
Something being a choice does not make it less valid or important. As a queer trans non-binary person, I view it similarly to my choice to live authentically. Being queer is not a choice I make, but living openly and authentically as myself, dating and loving who I want, having transitioned the ways I have, those are technically choices.
“Coming out” does apply to both queerness and polyamory in my opinion. I’ve done both, and both involved being honest about who I am and who I love, and flies in the face of the patriarchal society we live in. Non-monogamy is not queerness, but it shares some aspects.
“God says a relationship is between one man and one woman” I’m pan, genderfluid, poly, and agnostic, so I obviously disagree with ALL of that statement.
“Coming out” is used in a way to convey that there can be societal harm from revealing that info publicly.
I work for some very conservative people and am just as worried about them finding out about me being pan and genderfluid as I am about being poly. The agnostic part I’m not as worried about, but I still don’t advertise it.
Idk, I see plenty of people under the umbrella fighting each other. I had a really good friend where her wife turned out to be a turf. I personally know gay men who truly don’t believe bi men exist, or who would never date a trans man. I know of people who are poly but not allies. I had a potential partner say “cats can’t become dogs”, which I stopped seeing them after that.
I’m lucky in that almost my entire chosen social circle is all poly and also under the umbrella. None of us really differentiate between poly and pride, because we see it all as part of the same rejection of being told who to be, and just being who we are regardless. I personally don’t even distinguish between if someone is lgbtqia+ or an ally. If they’re on our side, they’re one of us.
I don’t use any of the titles as badges of pride or anything because I don’t have a choice about them. They’re all just a part of me. I feel pride in the progress I’ve made to dig into what they mean and into accepting them in my path of self discovery, but I don’t feel the need to gate-keep the specific language and the titles as I don’t think there’s value in that.
Gay man. I have absolutely no problem with that language being used. Being in a polyamorous or ENM relationship comes with similar mistreatment from society and for many people, telling your family that you are polyamorous can result in being disowned, similar to what many LGBTQ deal with.
I'm curious as to why that language has bothered you, it does come across as gatekeeping for sure. To me, coming out can mean telling your friends or family about a part of you that isn't typically accepted or "normal" in society. Polyamorous people certainly do that.
I think you have very valid qualms and are mostly right. ENM in every form is a choice and "coming out" as preferring it to monogamy shouldn't be used to force the partner. I kinda had to learn that the hard way too. But it is still a very unusual form of a relationship and not kindly seen of by some ppl, so I think it is valid to use "coming out" at least in some cases for telling your family and close friends that you will be seeing multiple people.
CIS bisexual who is not out here, and I always felt the same because it feels like it's encroaching on a different experience.
I mean, there are similarities and there is a lot of crossover. However, family finding out you're gay or bi versus being poly; hits WAY different.
My parents learned of my bisexuality in the worst way possible (outed by 3rd party) and that was awkward as hell. Meanwhile we were never formally outed as poly, but they weren't stupid and noticed we had a lot of friends we met as adults and spent time with.
They never pushed or felt it warranted discussion. Heck, after being outed maybe they thought my wife's bfs were mine LOL.
Trans masc NB. Most polyamorous people I know irl are queer anyway, so if they want to call this "coming out" too, that's fine, they understand the nuance. I guess it's a bit annoying coming from cishets if I think about it? But tbh, I don't really think about it or care all that much. I get why you would though
Yeah, I don’t think that’s necessarily fair to say, considering there are people who’ve had to battle with ideologies their entire lives. There are things that people fight on the daily because of what they believe to be moral construct. I do believe any form of sexuality can be a “coming out”. People gate keeping the idea of polyamory doesn’t help those who are trying to understand themselves. Also thank you for acknowledging how we all feel.
Poly is not a choice for everyone. For some, it is their orientation. There is also a lot of social stigma around being poly, so many people feel closeted by it.
Personally I find coming out as poly harder than coming out as bi.
Also I am proof that it's not simply a choice after trying and failing over and over to be strictly mono.
I am bi/pan and genderqueer. I am out as bi/pan, but my gender identity is probably more confusing for people, which I'm fine with.
I've also been in successful poly relationships for 8 years and unsuccessful before that.
I agree this is how I see it used and used it myself when I told my parents about my relationships.
>Poly people definitely "come out" to family and friends and can be a very similar experience to LGBT people in that sense.
And I think it's a remarkable sign of privilege when a community believes it has the power to gatekeep language. We should be proud of our progress. And, we need to recognize that acceptance looks like integration. And integrating language means also evolving. All language evolves.
Maybe there are more ways to come out than just sexual orientation. Maybe the brave pioneers from the LGBTQIA+ community deserve the respect and honor that comes with changing the way society sees identity across a broad spectrum of categories.
Maybe we should be proud of the acceptance created by the hard fight of people before us, and not use our new found strength and space to start excluding others.
It's OK if it's easier for the next generation than it was for the last. That's the goal of progress.
I don't really mind. But like, the thing you added in the edit, about someone in a mono relationship "coming out" as poly. I dislike that very much! But if it's about, telling your friends and family you're polyamorous, I think you can say coming out
Eh, I'm queer and poly, and coming out as both to family felt much the same.
That said, for me being poly is more of a choice – it's still something that's quite different from the norm, and all the same fear around acceptance applies. Equally a lot of people experience being poly as much more of an inherent trait than I do.
Hi, I’m trans and poly, I might be misreading what you mean by “coming out”, but coming out as poly is like, still something i’ve yet to do to my parents, despite being out to them as trans. Conservative immigrant parents don’t exactly take that kind of news well, and for them it’ll be another thing that’s “broken” or “wrong” with their child.
I get the poly experience isn’t the same as being trans in like, oppressive dynamics, cuz i live both and feel the difference. But, at least with my parents, the scariest people to come out to, I’m not looking forward to once again having to explain and justify another part of my being, another way in which im not loving and *being* in the right way.
I think the desire for the poly lifestyle isn't a choice, just as much as being gay/trans isn't a choice.
The difference is societal acceptance, and lgptqa and polyamory right now are socially different than the normal. Coming out as different is how the phrase works, for everyone. Shit, coming out as Atheist is a Christian family is just as hard.
Gatekeeping a phrase seems silly, as words have meaning and everyone understands what coming out means.
As a queer person who came out as poly to my parents a few years ago, I was definitely more worried about how they would react to the poly stuff than the queer stuff. Overall I agree with your second edit, though, it's not a phrase that should be used to polybomb...not that the type of person who would polybomb is paying attention to posts like this.
I’ve been fired for being open about my relationships, and my parents disowned me when I told them. So what do you want from me? Have I not incurred enough costs?
It’s not about suffering enough Jesus.
If you do think so. Think that suffering is what this convo is about. Then allow me to introduce you to the rape and murder statistics of trans women. 15 times the national average. For black trans women, murder enters their top 20 causes of death.
See look people have suffered more than you. So stopping using the term. When you are ready you can rejoin the conversation when you wanna talk about stuff linguistically and culturally.
Your post has been removed for breaking the rules of the subreddit. You made a post or comment that would be considered being a jerk. This includes being aggressive towards other posters, causing irrelevant arguments, and posting attacks on the poster or the poster's partners/situation.
Please familiarize yourself with the rules at https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/wiki/subreddit-rules
I am perfectly aware and your response has nothing to do with my statement. I didn’t invalidate the experiences of those communities. But the costs I’ve incurred for choosing this life are valid and you’re kind of being shitty for whatabouting them. So maybe sit down on this one. I don’t take lectures from baby polys.
Honestly any sexual orientation or preference that isn't the deemed the societal norm could fall under "coming out". I find it stupid that telling your family or friends that you are gay/bi/poly or are into a certain body type is considered coming out like its some abomination. Like you had to hide it out of fear or shame.
Polyamory has straight and gay, cis and trans and non binary, allosexual and asexual and aromatic people under it’s umbrella.
It might be part of *your* queer identity. We know it’s *part* of ours, but it is not *exclusively* a queer identity.
Just be mindful that polyam is not part of the LGBTQIA+ in and of itself, and we won’t be hosting discussions around if it *should* be included or not. Those discussions should be had in queer-centered spaces. Our community has lots and lots of diversity, but is still dominated by cis het allo folks.
Thank you.
There's already been many very well written comments, but I just wanted to add my personal experience/thoughts, and how I arrived there.
As a kid/young teen, I was always kinda confused by people saying "being gay isn't a choice!". I still parroted it because I knew the other side of the argument was the "bad guys". But it always confuses me because... to me it kinda did feel like a choice?
Well, I'm bi. So.
(Just to be clear- being any type of queer ISN'T a choice, but the nuance didn't make sense to my bi brain)
I had similar thoughts about whether poly "counts" as an orientation. To me it feels like more of a choice. Yes I can choose to engage in monogamy (and currently am) and be content and happy and fulfilled, but I also could engage in polyamory and be happy and content and fulfilled. I tend to lean towards monogamy mostly for the sake of logistics (and because my partner is monogamous).
But I think I'm just ambi-amorous. So... yeah, I can see how a polyamorous heterosexual person might feel the need to "come out".
I find it an interesting thought exercise when reading this sort of thing to replace arguments against poly being something that some people 'are' rather than 'choose' with them being gay/trans etc to try to see where the logic does and doesn't hold up
For example, gay people can 'choose' to live lives with a spouse of the opposite gender/'choose' to live an open life living and loving who they are actually attracted to.
It's not a perfect comparison, but I find it useful at least.
I think it’s highly uninformed and seems to indicate a bunch of cishet folks think they’re at risk of being hate crimed or the government literally persecuting them for having two partners.
The attempt to coop queer oppression to . . . idk, make their life more dramatic or something is very gross to me.
Conversations on a topic mentioned in this post can tend to get very heated with high emotions on each side, please remember that we are a community meant to **help each other**, please keep conversations civil, even if you don't agree. And don't forget, the mods are only a report away. Any comments derailing the topic or considered trolling/being a jerk will be removed and the user muted for an undisclosed amount of time.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/polyamory) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Whelp, the trolling has started, so we’re going to lock this!
Trans woman. I have no strong feelings about this. Polyamorous people frequently do have to come out in a similar way- that is to say, there is a lot of pressure from society to be monogamous, and deciding not to cave to that pressure does put the polyamorous in a position where, much like me, they must choose whether to stealth or to be "out". obviously poly people aren't, for example, getting hate crimed on the regular for being poly in the same way trans people are, but i doubt they think that and i don't think using the language of "coming out" necessarily implies an "equality" of oppression between the two. i also want to push back on the choice/not choice dichotomy. personally, I have known i was trans since i was four years old, so i dont believe its something i chose- however I know other people who *did* explicitly choose to be trans, and i think that kicks ass. when we make our rhetorical stand on "the lgbt did not choose to be this way" it implies a lot of different things even accidentally. it implies we would be less valid if we had "chosen" to be different. it implies we would choose to be "normal" if we had the opportunity. and worst of all, it implies there is some necessary biological component to being gay and trans, and this kind of bio essentialism leads dark places- after all, if I'm trans because of some biological development that occured in the womb, there are LOADS of people who will be highly incentivized to say "okay what is that biological development, how do we stop it from happening again, and how do we reverse it in the people its already happened to?" edit: typo edit 2: please do not DM me in favor of eugenics thanks
I really appreciate this answer so much. My husband and I are both bisexual and polyamorous. We recently "came out" to our circle. Poly/nonmonogamous people can receive horrible hate for their lifestyle, even losing jobs or children (or at least having to go through the hell of possibly losing their kids if some concern troll calls cps on them). They can lose their family and friends, and face all kinds of societal blowback. It's absolutely not the same as the statistical likelihood of being murdered or homeless, but it's certainly a decision (to come out) that has some significant risks, depending on one's station in life. It's something that a lot of people hide because if fear, and so revealing that part of them is a "coming out." I personally kinda always knew I was nonmonogamous but didn't have the language or understanding to identify it until society at large began to define it. Much like many gay or trans people always felt different, but didn't realize why or how, until they learned about queerness from someone or somewhere else, the things clicked into place. I really appreciate your point about the choice/not choice thing and the implications for eugenics.
I actually agree on the choice/not choice. I think for many poly people, it can be either or. My ex gf who was also trans said she had known she was poly before she even knew there was a word for it. Some choose it and some feel it is part of their identity.
Thank you, thank you! I find it a very weird gatekeeping perspective I feel is intended to divide poly and queer communities; when, at least in my experience, the overlap and intersection of the two communities makes it difficult to have one without the other: I almost can't even fathom being poly and NOT intersecting with queerness in some way. And while oppression is not congruent, the fact that anyone can be legally fired for ENM but not other identities means that the protections for other identities can be put at risk: now your boss who wants to fire you for being gay or hispanic has a safe excuse in firing you for polyamory. With no legal recourse there is a legit reason why poly people are forced to live secretly. If someone is 'coming out' becasue they got caught cheating is one thing, someone finally telling their family who they are is another.
Shhhhh you. As a trans person you're supposed to gatekeep, not be open minded and inclusive. Has Reddit not thought you anything?
It bothers me when I see it as “I’ve developed a crush on a coworker and need to ‘come out’ to my mono partner that I’m suddenly poly” or “my partner has just come out as poly and has feelings for a friend”
I think this is the biggest issue.
I think this is a very big piece if it. The damage of presenting converting a mono dynamic to polyamory as akin to rejecting someone due to being homosexual is very real and it is why we constantly have distressed monos begging for help on how to manage their partners "coming out."
Yeah, I think it's telling that the people who "come out" to their monogamous partner are never saying "I've realized that I'll be happy if **you** date other people." It's always how they themselves feel and want other partners, never about what their partner wants. And it breaks down right around when their partner wants to be able to date too. I made [this post](/r/polyamory/comments/17ce7wn/repeat_after_me_polyamory_is_a_commitment_to/) to link to both the Polybombers and Polybombed when someone "comes out" as Poly.
I do quite like the idea of a monogamous couple having a cup of tea and one of them going, “Look, there’s something I need to tell you. No, please listen, it’s an important part of who I am and I need you to know I’m still the person you’ve always loved, but…I just need you to know…if you wanted to date other people I’d be willing to manage my feelings about it. I guess it’s just part of who I am”
No joke, that's how I felt with my ex. I WANTED him to date other people, I think probably because I was trying to figure out a way to make him finally be happy and feel secure. But you can't force someone into feelings.
actually, for the longest while (way before I actually cared to start dating, demi here) I kept being annoyed at the whole "cheating" thing in media? So I had elaborate conversations where I would tell my imagined partner "look I don't care if you 'cheat' if you just tell me about it? like I just give you permission to go for it if you feel you want to, just don't go making it this whole hidden secret" and well, when I way later realized I was polyam, and jumped into actually dating directly practicing polyamory? Well now I see how that might've been related tbh.
THIS is definitely a bastardization of the term, and not cool
I agree, I think this is what's bothered me the most and we need to push back on that type of usage as a community. But after reading some of the comments, I agree that some people actually do need to "come out" to family in a similar way to LGBT folks, I just think there just needs to be some respect towards the origins of the phrase if that makes sense?
I’m queer and poly. Everyone knows I’m queer. Not everyone knows I’m poly because it would blow up my relationship with my family. I say it’s fine because it still lives outside the margins of hetero mono normative life and I personally don’t feel like being poly is a choice for me. I could “choose” to be monogamous to get along in the world better similarly to when I was told I should “choose” to straight. If you don’t like the term “coming out” with being poly then don’t use it but I don’t think you get to decide on my behalf that I shouldn’t say it.
Same same same. Honestly coming out as queer was a piece of cake (for me personally, I know I'm lucky) compared to coming out as poly.
It wasn’t easy for me to come out as queer! Being poly would make their heads explode. I would have an easier time telling them I’m kinky I think lol.
Queer and trans here. I think there are two ways people use "coming out" as poly. There are bad actors who use it as an excuse to put their previously monogamous relationship into a poly under duress situation. In that sense, it really irritates me, and I do agree that it's disrespectful. But then there are people for whom "coming out" as poly is very similar to coming out as queer or trans, in the sense that it draws attention, it fundamentally may change one's relationship with friends and family, it has implications on jobs, etc. in other words, revealing oneself to be poly has consequences, often negative ones. It's not _the same_ as being queer, but that doesn't diminish the validity of a poly person's experience of marginalization. So I'd encourage folks to step away from the oppression olympics. And also to move away from the binary of whether something is a choice. As another commenter pointed out, essentialism isn't the best foundation for fostering greater equity and acceptance in society.
Yeah, thanks for pointing out the issue with "choice" I typed out a whole paragraph, but it became kind of rambly, and I'm not sure it said what I wanted to say. But agreed, essentialism is not a great framework to address these questions
I'd very gently like to disagree with you, as a trans/queer person. Polyamory isn't a choice for some people, the same way monogamy isn't for some. Telling people in your life you're poly is a huge deal, and can incur a lot of the same mistreatment coming out as queer can. You're correct in that cis/het people do not struggle with the same issues the queer community does, but I feel we can offer a little more kindness and direction in this circumstance rather than completely negating the very real struggles being poly can incur.
Yeah, thanks. My totally cishet partner is helping his parents through a family emergency right now, and he can't even discuss with them that I might have a conflict and need support from him as well. He has tried to have the conversation with them, and they absolutely threw a fit. It's pretty clear that his choice is between being openly poly, or having any kind of relationship with his family of origin. This is not too different from having to hide a same-sex partner because of your family's disapproval. I agree that you don't just "come out" as poly to your mono partner, but that's a completely different situation and usage.
Very much appreciate this comment. The choice/identity debate is so weird in this sub, I've never seen it be so militant as it is here. People trying to police the identity of others is awful. Yes, polyamory is a choice for some people, we call them ambiamorous. It doesn't apply to everyone.
Polyamory isn’t a choice for me and I dealt with decades of self loathing because of the societal pressures and imprints. I have a child who is trans and they have experienced the same thing with a different perspective. I lost my whole family with the exception of my kids when I left my husband to be true to who I am. According to my family, ‘I wrecked my marriage to be a wh*re’. Even now, my partners can’t be open at work about who I am because they would lose their jobs. It’s not the same as the LGBTQ community and everything they’ve gone through and fought for, but it’s close. Add in D/s and it adds a whole other layer of judgment and crap to deal with. Going against any societal norms involves courage and determination to be authentic and be happy. It is a form of coming out, it just looks different for everyone.
Well said and politely elegant. Thankyou. I am experiencing some negativity atm and it sucks a whole lot as a polyarmourous person
Thank you.
My biggest issue with it is when the language is co-opted and weaponized... like "I just came out to my mono partner and am using queer language in an attempt to guilt and manipulate them into opening our relationship whether they want to or not because it's implied that they're being phobic if they can't just accept me as I am"
Exactly this.
I’m queer and poly. My “telling my friends and family and work colleagues “ I’m poly was waaaay harder than my “coming out” as queer. For me, it’s NOT A CHOICE to be poly in the same way, it’s NOT A CHOICE I’m queer. I don’t use “coming out” for poly, specifically so I don’t piss off people (like OP, seemingly) who want to gatekeep the phrase. I’m guessing it’s only ambiamorous people who think it’s a choice to be poly.
You are very brave for coming out as polyamorous.
I really hate anything with a whiff of “gold star” exclusion. Congrats, I guess.
Nah, a lot of the people on this forum who insist they’re innately poly and their Innate Internal Polyness Is Not A Choice are actively in monogamous relationships that they keep choosing every day.
See I honestly don't get that. I'm polyamorous. It isn't a choice for me. Reciprocal monogamy makes me feel trapped and miserable and I end up resenting my partner even of they're awesome within a year. Because Im polyamorous. I can't imagine agreeing to or staying in a monogamous relationship. Because they make me miserable. I also don't expect someone who is monogamous to want to date me or stay in a relationship with me, because I assume polyamory would make them equally miserable. Could I technically consent to monogamy? Sure. Would I ever knowing myself and what makes me feel happy and safe and myself? Nope Same way being demi means I can technically consent to ONS with strangers, but I never would because it's just not pleasurable for me and I have zero desire for it. I feel the same way about monogamy as I do ONSs. If the options were monogamy or perpetual singlehood and celibacy, I'd choose perpetual singlehood and celibacy rather than a monogous relationship, just like if my only option for sex was ONSs, id choose to remain celibate rather than engage in that type of sex. Like technically I have a choice in all those situations, but only one that actually works for *me*, so is that really a choice?
Why do you think I need this explained? I’ve never agreed to monogamy. I didn’t want it. This condescending “you must not even really be polyamorous” nonsense is exactly what bloo is talking about. Go explain this nonsense to folks in monogamous relationships claiming to be poly.
>This condescending “you must not even really be polyamorous” nonsense is exactly what bloo is talking about. Where did I say that? Do point it out, please. I just said I dont get why anyone would stay in a relationship that made them miserable because for me that isn't a valid option. It just ends up hurting everyone involved. Not just with polyamory, but anything. wantingkids/not wanting kids. Wanting to move coubtries/not wanting to do so. Wanting a traditional marriage/not wanting one. >Go explain this nonsense to folks in monogamous relationships claiming to be poly. Why? It wouldnt do anything because that's not what it's about for that specific subgroup. Not really. It's just a convenient excuse to try to manipulate and pressure their partners. I don't bother with manipulators or people who try to use sexuality or mental health or anything like that to try to pressure their partners into behaving how they want them to or agreeing to things they wouldn't otherwise. People acting in bad faith exist in all walks of life, but I've never seen the point on expending energy on them. Avoiding them and warning others is a better and more practical use of time and energy
You can be deeply sure you are poly but stay in a monogamous relationship for many reasons - kids, family, finances, career, health etc.
That would definitionally be being ambiamorous. That is what ambiamorous *means*.
I am queer and view poly as more my identity than my choice. I have currently been *choosing* to not actively date poly, but I still consider myself poly and my partner knows it might be part of my choice later. Poly feels like just another extension of the *way that I love* the same way that being pi or pan feels to me. I came out 10 different ways while figuring out my sexuality, first to bi, then lesbian, then bi, pan, poly. Finally came to the conclusion that none of it really matters, I just love the way I love. And I'm not going to keep anyone else from using a phrase while they're figuring themselves out too.
Queer transman here. Doesn’t bother me in the slightest. With how society is so cishet mono… any deviation from that is met with shall we say interesting conversations. If folk aren’t living in a poly closet under the stairs, they have to come out and say it.
I'm about as queer as they get. I'm a transgender butch lesbian, I'm poly, I have several queer platonic relationships, and I'm into kink. So I can say this with my whole chest: Polyam community 🤝 Kink community 🤝 Queer community Consenting adults doing things in the privacy of their bedrooms that makes people big mad There's no language police. We stand together in solidarity.
I think it depends how you define coming out as poly. If you just mean telling people in your life that you’re practicing polyamory, then I think it’s a completely valid phrase. I just hate when people say they “came out” to their partners by announcing that they’re poly. I’m a believer that poly is something you do not something you are. Dropping that you need to fuck other people on your partner you’re in a mono relationship with is shitty and shows you’ve done no serious research on the matter.
That's just weaponized as identity by people who are trying to force new terms on existing structures. poly can be identity and it can also be something you practice. People who are ambi are more likely to be thinking of it as just something they practice. For others, it can be a relationship orientation. It can be tied to identity even if they do not CURRENTLY have multiple partners. I'm one of those people. It's who I am. Douchenozzles trying to cram a 3 way on their wife weaponizing the concept of coming out give us all a bad name.
Alternatively, one does not need to fuck anyone to be poly. But finding that the way your brain works is either 'all in' or 'professional distance because it's not worth going all in like I will want to do' and this constantly leading to a very lonely life because you're not 'allowed' more than one close, talk about anything and everything intimately life partner when you're a straight man...it can very much feel like you have to 'closet' a very major part of you that causes a great deal of pain and distress in your life, and considering loving people is not something wrong or harmful, wanting to 'come out' of said closet and be able to live openly and honestly... At the very least it's easy to see why it's such a strong correlation to using this type of language. I'm certainly personally open to hearing more of 'the other side' on this, as with all things. It's something I've pondered myself numerous times. Ultimately I think the usage of the verbiage isn't harmful and certainly not intended to be harmful, so there's other things I'll spend a lot more time worrying about. But I also acknowledge I'm not a member of the rainbow community and there are certainly struggles there in society I'll simply never be subjected to, and thus probably am not taking into consideration. Edit: that said, I also acknowledge that there are likely plenty of 'bad actors' who would use it as an excuse or misuse in unhealthy ways as well
I only hate it when one person of a monogamous couple ‘comes out as poly’. You can’t do that. Being honest about your feelings is okay, discussing them is okay, but just telling your SO you’re poly now, is a dumb and low excuse to cheat on your partner. At least this is what i often read in this subreddit when someone asks for advice about their partner coming out as poly. Whenever i would tell my mum i’m poly, i could call that ‘coming out as poly’, but that’s a whole different story. Me and my NP are practicing nonmonogamy for almost a decade now, in an ethical way so there was no ‘coming out’ between us, only honesty about feelings that were developing. For example our relationship started monogamous, then monogamish, then fully open, and now poly after realizing we develop deeper feelings for our other partners. Everything with consent and not taking it too fast.
I don’t think that “choice” is the best litmus test, honestly, nor do I think that interesting or edifying convos come from that, honestly. Plenty of people out there now who have never been mono, and never probably will. Argument around that is silly. (That said, every relationship, And the agreements we build around them are a choice, so…🤷♀️) Even if it’s an orientation, that honestly doesn’t change much. Plenty of things that aren’t choices don’t fall under the big rainbow. I *do* think it’s fair to discuss appropriation vs. linguistic slide. And I think it’s appropriate to discuss the LGBTQIA+ as a historical coalition, both culturally and politically, and the experience of “coming out” as a culturally shared experience if you are a part of the big rainbow flag, and how it feels to watch that experience, and it’s import, culturally, snatched and grabbed by another subculture. Even if non-monogamy, as a behavior is behavior that is entirely out of our hands, that doesn’t change the appropriative nature of cis het allo folks talking about “coming out”. A lack of respect and knowledge of queer history (which a lot of cis het allo folks lack) and queer culture fuel this idea that any behavior that isn’t a choice, and has something, maybe to do with pants feels or love *has to be part of the LGBTQIA+* It doesn’t. Something can be difficult, and hard and be it’s own difficult struggle.
The historic depth and importance of “coming out” in the queer community is exactly why I rebuke the use of this term by polyamorists. Also I’m sorry but kids aren’t being thrown out of their homes for being poly, period.
… except I have a friend who was. Whose family later barely accepted them back, and then beat up their other partner (even after they'd been introduced directly and it looked like it was going okay at first) for "being a cheater" and threatened to shoot them if they ever came back? More importantly why are we doing oppression olympics to decide if its "enough of a struggle" when people ARE afraid to tell their family and friends they're polyamorous. Where people feel they'd rather hide all their partners, or try and "choose someone to front" and get pushed into a heirarchy when they just want their family to accept BOTH their partners. Just because its more often accepted? just because most people don't directly know someone being thrown out for being polyamorous? Or is it because we hear too many of the bad stories of people "coming out" to their partner when really they want an excuse to cheat / are already cheating. Do we have to let bad actors ruin it for those that actually need the metaphor?
You clearly don’t live in the Bible Belt or live under a very fortunate rock
Yup. I have mentioned this before, but I have been community building with young, queer and trans kids who are houseless and doing survival level sex work for a few years now. Polyam folks aren’t exactly flooding my DM’s with offers of help, so…🤷♀️ Those kids faced very different consequences for being queer than Todd and Jenny, whose mom is really mad that Jenny’s got a boyfriend. Edit: And while it’s not the “oppression Olympics” the straight facts are that being queer is not like being polyam for a great number of folks, and the consequences are not the same. But like, that doesn’t even really matter. Until someone decides that they wanna ride the rainbow flag into legitimacy because they don’t know how little it actually protects folks. Polyam people thinking that “being queer” would offer them much of anything is a giggle fest, honestly. Of the first degree.
Oh yeah didn’t donations toward queer youth and trans women go down after gay marriage was legalized? Something like once that milestone was reached, donations toward LGBTQ orgs went down 70%. That tells you where peoples priorities lie
Yeah, it’s very often a convo that’s wrapped up in BIG FEELS. But like, it’s not about how hard polyam is for you. It being difficult or stigmatized doesn’t make it part of the LGBTQIA+. 🤷♀️
It's obviously factually true that folks under the rainbow umbrella are at different risk than poly folks. It's also clear to me that nonmonogamy is not part of LGBTQIA+, though I take the point that many folks appear to be ignorantly or maliciously confused on the topic. But I'm not sure that automatically means the term "coming out" can't be used by marginalized poly folks. It's a discussion to be had in the queer community, and I'm glad we're having it! And as a side note - it wasn't my queerness or trans identity that led my parents to threaten to cut their support and kick me out, it wasn't my queerness they compared to being a pedophile. It was being poly. Realize this isn't the typical experience, but I wouldn't minimize the potential consequences.
But that isn’t the point. Plenty of people have extraordinarily difficult paths because of things they didn’t choose. That isn’t the doorway to the LGBTQIA+. People can use the term however they want. I won’t stop them. It’s the anger that somehow the “queers got the good protections and they won’t share” that’s problematic.
Are you saying that the use of "coming out" is like, a stepping stone to people believing that being poly is being queer?
Nope. The discussion between Yaller and I is about why queers might have some feels about using the phrase and view it as cultural appropriation, especially when the concept is being weaponized to add a thin veneer of legitimacy over someone’s shitty behavior. And how much more complex that discussion becomes when out of ignorance, the focus shifts to “oppression” as the key to what makes something LGBTQIA+, instead of recognizing it’s vibrant singular cultural history, and the people who made a whole movement *and who made that happen and how* It’s a shame when it turns into how the LGBTQIA+ needs to “share” and “look at how many great rights they got!” Because the rights ain’t great right now. A parade isnt much of a consolation prize when your kid is barred from getting appropriate health care. But heaven help you if you discuss how empty and toothless many of those “protections”are. You’ll get folks telling you how hard poly is. But that is it’s own thing. And it is hard, but it’s not the same.
I think it only bothers me when straight cis folks who only date other straight cis folks feel that “coming out” as poly makes them queer. I don’t see the problem with using the term “coming out” when it just means being open about it in daily life. Being polyamorous is something that still comes with quite a bit of social and professional backlash so I understand why that phrase is used. Being poly is a mindset around relationships not just a relationship structure. The choice is actually dating multiple people at once but that’s not the case for every poly person, for all kinds of reasons.
To me, in a lot of ways, that phrase encompasses the experience of opening oneself up to potential rejection, ridicule and ostracization of people that claim to love you. In my own queer journey, I also used the term "coming out" to describe telling my parents I was no longer Christian after I deconstructed in adulthood. In a lot of ways that kind of tore up the relationship I had with them, turned conversations into conversion attempts for quite some time and left me with the decision to either cut them off or set aside that part of who I am and never speak to them about it again. Ultimately I decided to just not discuss it with them. In a similar way to my queerness and poly (which I'm not out about) I see many ways coming out can describe this experience that other phrases would fail to accurately portray. It's a huge risk and potential for rejection, why be offended by others relating to that fear and having that experience and naming it as such?
>This is a question specifically for queer/trans people. What do you think of the phrase "coming out" being used by cis/straight people for Polyamory Im bisexual. In my country I get far more backlash for my polyamory than I do for my sexual orientation. Being with a girl is kinda okay, but not believing in monogamy or marriage? Perish the thought. Even the queer community reacts poorly to it. Personally, it doesn't bother me in the sense that it is going against societal norms in relationships. And because I think it should be considered a romantic configuration orientation. And should go something like this: -*A-amorous* (not wanting any romantic relationships) - *monoamorous*(wanting only one romantic relationship with reciprocal sexual and romantic exclusivity) - *ambiamorous* (being fine with any relationship configuration) -*polyamorous* (wanting *only* relationships that do not come with the expectation of sexual or romantic exclusivity.) Tbf, I started questioning monogamy way before I started questioning my sexuality, and had more push back for the polyamory personally in my country, which is why I started practicing it so late. (which doesn't mean I didn't experience bigotry for dating women, I did, catholic countries gonna catholic.). So I might feel differently if I had. But from where I'm standing polyamory is as much part of my identity as being bisexual or demi is and in my region, goes against the societal norm in very simillar ways, and challenges it far more than homosexuality does. I don't think it needs to be under the queer umbrella, but "coming out" as polyam was honestly almost exactly the same experience as coming out as bi when I was 14 except I didn't lose friends for being bi. For me polyamory isn't a choice. Or rather, I feel so trapped and controlled in a monogamous relationship that if the options were monogamy or single for life, (and yes that includes remaining celibate) id pick the single for life as the better option for me than a monogamous relationship. Polyamory isn't a "choice" for me. It's the only relationship configuration I'm happy in, or open to. The inly one I will ever consider. I am polyamorous. Monogamy won't ever be on the table with me, for any reason.
As a queer woman, I’m less bothered by the usage of “coming out” and more bothered by straight, cis people who feel entitled to queer spaces after coming out as poly.
If I’m in a conservative environment and context comes up where I have or want to talk about a partner I think about as much whether I address them as „my partner“ or „one of my partners“ (which feels a lot more comfortable to me, in general) as I am about whether I’ll address that I’m bi. Both of them don’t make particularly uncomfortable or scared, but sometimes I just don’t want to lead the conversations. Coming out as trans feels like different level of coming out than either of these things, because I legit am worried of their reaction, not just potentially annoyed.
Look, I'm a non-binary queer person that had to come out first as a lesbian and later as non-binary. Coming out as poly carries all the same stress and fear and need to decide if this person/situation is safe. I also want to push back against the idea that coming out as poly is without social risk. While we have not seen hate crimes against poly folks there are still risks to social and financial safety that go along with being poly. My job has protections for both sexual identity and gender identity, but nothing that covers me as a poly person. I cannot freely discuss my living situation or relationship status, which very much feels like being in the closet again. Also, look, I bitch about cis het folks as much as the next queer chafing at social expectations, but we have gotta stop acting like every person who isn't queer is our enemy. They aren't taking anything from you by using the term coming out, they are sharing an experience of fear and expectation of rejection. That can be a place to find common ground and allyship. Don't be so quick to throw that out.
I'm queer, and I personally don't think coming out is appropriate to use unless you're a regency era young woman who is finally allowed to go to parties outside the family circle. /s
Relevant: a history of the phrase “coming out.” Early 20th century gay culture borrowed the phrase from debutante balls to signify entrance into gay society - it had nothing to do with declaring your identity to the broader world until after Stonewall. https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/the-history-of-coming-out-from-secret-gay-code-to-popular-political-protest
I would say it’s still a coming out because it’s against societal norms and expectations, and it is something that is frequently attacked even by the left. So yeah - by no means does that mean that being openly poly is “the same” as being LGBTQ+ (although many poly people are bi in my experience) but it’s a spectrum of difficulty and highly contextual, not black and white.
I vehemently disagree that poly is only a choice.
Bi/omni poly person here. I'm not "out" to my family in either sense. Honestly the discussion when I come out for my sexuality with my family will be immensely intertwined to the discussion where I tell them about being poly. It, in fact, may wind up being the exact same conversation - and the polyamory is what's going to break my family's heart moreso than the sexuality (mostly just cuz my brother is gay so they've been through that part before; he's ENM as well but he's also closeted to our folks about it because of that). So yeah anyway I don't know what other term to use because to me that "coming out" is going to be way bigger and harder than the other, more typical one. Lol. Suggestions?
I understand why it becomes irksome- especially when most people using it aren't at all AWARE of that greater context. We had at least 3 posts last week that basically boiled down to "I want the fun of non mono non hetero dating but not any of the risk or responsibility and how dare you call me out on that." Its exhausting and it's okay to just say "you're ignorant" and provide no further labor. But as a cultural communication tool, it fits the bill better than anything else I know of in English for the experience being conveyed.
Old timer here. “Coming out” as poly meant revealing to your family/friends (possibly other people) that you are in a structure that is polyamorous (having multiple partners) in the past. Not in an individual intent/sexuality way like we often see nowadays (which is appropriative as putting ones relationship preference under LGBTQI+ umbrella, and can be coercive if used to convince a partner in a monogamous structure to open up as a part of authentic self/sexuality).
I don't feel like polyamory is a choice for me fwiw
I completely agree. I realized I was doing a lot of immortal things that did make me feel bad because of constructs I was told growing up. For some of us we can get that a lot younger age, but some of us don’t figure it out until we’re much older and exposed to a healthy way of expression.
Yea no I don’t agree with this. Coming out as poly was wayyyy harder for me than coming out as pan. I’m still not fully out to my family and I’ve been in an established poly relationship for over 2 and a half years. Everyone’s experience is different and this does feel like gatekeeping to me.
It’s a combination of internal desires and external agreements. ‘Coming out’ during a monogamous relationship is a bad take- they should say they’re dealing with these feelings etc. I do believe you come out to family, coworkers and friends in ways that can be devastating. I’ve had multiple friends lose jobs parents and promotions from having poly relationships
As a bi I think I agree with your edits and what you added. It doesn't hold the same historical weight/connotations as coming out as queer does (i.e. poly people generally didn't and do not experience violence against them for being poly, etc.). I don't think it particularly upsets me when it's used, however, I definitely will feel some type of way if they try and place it on an equal historical ground/weight as coming out as queer as I find that to be highly inaccurate.
Bisexual poly cis guy here, though admittedly most of my experience has been het leaning. Revealing I’m either poly or bi to someone feels very similar. Both can be perceived as “why are you telling me about your sex life”. I feel like the poly is more engrained/innate in me than the bisexuality. I realize others feel differently. Do you have a suggestion for alternative language?
Im always gonna think it’s corny but comments here are gonna show you why I don’t touch this specific convo with a 10-ft pole lol. It’s like when I found out coming out wasn’t originally about telling the public you’re queer, it was about coming out to the local queer community. Or how the way people popularly use assigned gender at birth is straight up a misuse of how it was intended. Queer people are gonna relate to incorrect stuff too. And ultimately it’s debatable whether it’s incorrect because there’s always gonna be a group of people that are like “well I’m queer and idc” or “I’m queer and I see the parallels” or “I’m queer and I use this term myself and the fact I use it at all is affirming so people have to get over it”. Which technically all three of those are valid arguments, and I’m not the boss of “coming out”. I’m unconvinced that coming out as poly is necessary for us to say. But I’m just one lil person so 🤷🏾 I tried to popularize “the term cheating is for mono people” but if poly folk wanna use it to describe when their man who chronically lies *surprisingly* continues to do so in their polyamorous relationship (even though I swear to god the trend outside of this sub and throughout the years has been that the use of this term by polyamorists is a symptom monogamy hangover) I really can’t stop them. I’m on your hill tho OP!!
“Coming out” meaning to the local queer makes so much sense. Is that why it’s the same term as coming out balls/ debutante stuff?
It's not disrespectful. It's coming out. Witches do it too, coming out of the broom closet is what is referred to as. And poly for me, just like my queerness, is not a choice. I am poly. The way I respond to relationships with people is naturally different than other people. It's been like this since I started dating, and it won't go away; i will never be "normal" no matter how much I'd wish. So yes, I had to come out. You need to be less concerned about what language people are using, and more concerned about the people you interact with. I don't tolerate people in my life who behave in the way you've described, not because of language, because they behave like assholes.
I'm not sure how I feel about this tbh. I'm a cishet man, I've never been particularly comfortable with language like "coming out" in this context. But I have had to sit my parents down and have "the talk" with them, explaining to them that I'm in a poly relationship. Not sure that's the same deal though. I guess I've never really thought of Poly as anything like a sexual orientation or gender expression. Experiencing sexual or romantic feelings outside of the bounds of a relationship is really common even among mono people. Poly to me has always been more of a framework for allowing people to ethically act on those feelings. It doesn't feel like a sexual identity in the same way as LGBTQ+ would, I don't think. But then I don't know personally what those identities would feel like either, so not sure...
The term coming out within non monogamous relationships seem to be frequently used to give unnecessary legitimacy to someone decision to wanna fuck their co worker without feeling bad. I gotta come out to my wife as Polyam so me fucking with woman I am having an emotional affair with for a few week is okay. That kinda shit which is daily fodder in this subreddit. I know generalization but not like I got hard data on this.
I assume when people come out as poly this is the situation. They are looking for some validation to break commitments they made and validate their cheating.
I am Poly. Pansexual. EnBy. It's both a lifestyle and a orientation. I'll explain: It's both or either or depending on how you view yourself and the subject. For example: I would say I AM POLY because *I have compersion* and I nearly always *have emotional attachments to more than one person*. I cannot comfortably do mono, feels like lying. People do not necessarily have both compersion or feelings for more people. There are people who *only focus on one person* and *do not feel compersion* regarding seeing their person with others; these people I would say are inherently MONO. Now there are people who feel for multiple people but CHOOSE mono. There are people who love multiple and CHOOSE poly... However: *No one owes anyone else to try poly for coming out to their mono partner under the guise of sexual identity*. And I think that's where the issue lies... Too often people have used identity to excuse poor behaviour. Take Polybombing out of the equation, and it's a none issue to be both: identity and lifestyle. I am poly, but I choose the lifestyle. Just as the LGBTQA+ people have questions about coming out to friends and family. Worry about behaving poly out in public and how others may react. It might not be to the same level but we do loose people. We are stigmatized at times. Seen as possibly disease spreading vermin, unclean, immoral etc. Then there's the question of things like marriage rights; poly people can marry but only one person at a time. I might not be killed for being poly but there is still hate there. To me poly is *othered by society*. It goes against *mono normative rules*. Similar to *ace* it isn't trans or gay, but it isn't what society sees as *"normal"* so for me it is allied with LGBTQA+ as they face similar issues.
Which kind of coming out? "Coming out" to a partner as if it's suddenly something that demands action of them, likely "well I'm poly so now WE must at least consider it?" It's at best a bit clunky and at worst trying to force the issue coercively. If it's something you can know about yourself, it's something your partner can know about themselves, and so you should respect their "no" in not wanting to explore it. And frankly what it "really takes to be poly" isn't loving/wanting multiple people (that's most people IMO), it's the ability to love someone who shares affection for others and give them space. For me, that feels more like a skill than any innate identity, and in "Mono/Poly" relationships is only something the Mono person in that relationship is doing. On the other hand, "coming out" to friends or family that you have poly relationships? Yeah that can be tough. It all comes down to the values the people in your life have. Some will be cool with it, some (who even are "progressive" on LGBT topics) might not be. It can be very personally tough. No doubts on that.
i say come out about so many things. "my dad didnt handle it well when i came out as bi." "i came out as trans to my sister." "i came out to my mom as polyamorous but i dont think she remembers." "so i came out to my coworker as a marxist." "oh no have i not come out to you as a folk punk enjoyer yet?" its just useful language to describe the process of revealing parts of your life that are going to be presumed another way unless you mention it. like, alternatives often imply that you were deceitful or at least secretive until you shared the information. coming out kind of explains that it was mostly a matter of correcting a normative assumption. that said, I'm weird about identity. polyamory is a choice about how i date based on preferences, but i see my bisexuality similarly? my preferences can change. my transness, similarly, feels like a thing i needed to DO more than a thing i AM, which isn't too different from polyamory. and like, in my social circles, ive gotten way more crap about liking folk punk than liking more than one gender or being a girl or dialectical materialism. so like, i get that "coming out" is very queer language, but why cant we apply that language to similar situations. thats sort of how language works?
I'm bi and poly and it doesn't hurt me for someone to want to, "come out," as anything. Poly, queer, a baseball fan, etc. No skin off my nose. Just my opinion. Everyone is entitled to theirs.
Hi u/Rumby_Tumby thanks so much for your submission, don't mind me, I'm just gonna keep a copy what was said in your post. Unfortunately posts sometimes get deleted - which is okay, it's not against the rules to delete your post!! - but it makes it really hard for the human mods around here to moderate the comments when there's no context. Plus, many times our members put in a lot of emotional and mental labor to answer the questions and offer advice, so it's helpful to keep the source information around so future community members can benefit as well. Here's the original text of the post: This is a question specifically for queer/trans people. What do you think of the phrase "coming out" being used by cis/straight people for Polyamory? For me, it seems like at least uninformed, at most disrespectful of LGBTQA+ people and their experiences, and shouldn't be used for poly. It really bothers me that our language is being taken in this way, and not sure if my concerns are valid. Poly is a choice of relationship structure. Being LGBTQA+ obviously isn't a choice. Edit: I would like to push back on people attributing some sort of malace to my post. I wanted to find out how the rest of the queer community feels, I'm not trying to gatekeep, just trying to figure out the general consensus. It's just made me feel uncomfortable in the past, and I'm allowed to express that. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/polyamory) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’m queer and poly. I don’t have a problem with cishet people “coming out” as one thing or the other. “Coming out” didn’t originate as a gay thing anyway, it’s language queer people adopted but is originally from upper class circles where young people “come out” and make their debut at the ball or whatever. The fact of the matter is that being in or looking for polyamorous relationships faces social stigma, is kind of taboo, and is not well understood by many people. If you’re cis, straight, and want to “come out” as breaking a social norm in how you love people, go ahead.
Transman here, 37yo. I honestly don't care. As a dad and an adult strugling with mcas and RA, I have much worse problems than someone's semantic choice. We need tostop sweating the small stuff. Seriously
As a queer man I felt it as hard to come out about being queer as it felt to come out as being poly when telling about it to my childhood friends who had not seen that side of me. Totally valid expression/use of term IMO.
Poly transbian here. I view all three of these aspects as similarly inherent to my being and am therefore not a big fan of the "poly is purely a choice of structure" argument. So I have no issue with cishet poly people using the phrase so long as they remember that coming out to someone can often be a terrifying gamble and rejection is a very real possibility.
My poly discussion group recently talked about this! Although I am queer, I have never had to “come out” to the people I actually care about or to my job or anything because I was privileged to have an adoptive family that was mostly queer and enm/poly themselves, and an accepting employer. I can’t say that I have ever experienced a lot of the issues that other people experience when “coming out.” I do understand how it could be upsetting that poly people use the term, as they have a choice in their lifestyle and can easily hide it. However, none of us came up with a better term that fit. A lot of the group had told family or jobs about their other partners and had awful experiences. Some don’t talk to family anymore or lost their jobs over it. So I can see how “coming out” might feel like the best fit for those people. I think terminology and philosophies get co-opted all the time by people with ill intentions so I don’t think that is a valid reason to be concerned about use or the terminology, bc a certain amount of the burden of knowledge also falls on the people that are being given those excuses. Using your example; if a mono spouse “comes out” to their partner and uses that as an excuse to cheat, the partner also should be asking questions and doing research to decide if that is acceptable within their relationship. I know that people will have different opinions than me and thats totally fine and valid. I think it’s good to have open discussion and think it will help in finding better terminology. :)
Pan Transfem here. So ... Being poly probably isn't part of the LGBTQ space but it is part of the larger gender, sexuality and relationship minority (GSRM) space. Given that there are NOT legal protections for being poly, it's almost socially worse in some regards than being gay for example. I suspect that once being trans is more accepted the next culture war probably will be on alternative lifestyles like being poly. Ironically it is riskier to come out as poly because of the reduced protections. "Coming out" is more of announcing that you are partaking in a drastic social change or taboo and I think that "coming out" as poly totally fits the situation. Plus it's just linguistic short hand and easy to say.
> I suspect that once being trans is more accepted the next culture war probably will be on alternative lifestyles like being poly. . . . what the literal fuck. My country is literally making abortion illegal again and you think the ONLY TWO SOCIAL ISSUES are . . . trans acceptance and polyamory. > Ironically it is riskier to come out as poly because of the reduced protections. WHAT FUCKING PROTECTIONS? The ones that are keeping queer youth from being literally attacked *by public schools boards*? The ones that keep you from eviction for being queer? (Those don’t even exist in many jurisdictions, fyi.) The safety from hate crimes and sexual assault? You know HALF of bisexual women are raped during their lives, right? HALF. And you think ~social taboo~ is the hard part of being queer. 🙄🙄
I don't remember seeing them type anywhere that they thought those were the only two social issues. There's no question at all that the fight for the queer/trans etc community is still very much ongoing. Period. Also worth noting though, the lacking protections you pointed out, would probably also apply to poly people...
>My country is literally making abortion illegal again and you think the ONLY TWO SOCIAL ISSUES are . . . trans acceptance and polyamory. I guess that could be a low media literacy interpretation of what I said. So not sure if trolling or not. I didn't say those were the ONLY issues, just 2 relevant to the discussion at hand. >You know HALF of bisexual women are raped during their lives, right? HALF. And you think ~social taboo~ is the hard part of being queer. 🙄🙄 It's horrifying and awful but I think you are reading that because I like waffles I'm on a genocidal campaign against pancakes. >WHAT FUCKING PROTECTIONS? [like these? Fair housing, equal employment. etc. ](https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/lgbtq-rights#are-lgbtq-students-protected-from-discrimination-in-schools)
It’s hilarious that you think actual people are gaining widespread protection from that.
I mean, it sort of is coming out, the fear of rejection from family members is there, the worry people won't see you the same. The fact that you might be told to keep it quiet and don't tell the older members of your family. For me it was easy to come out as poly, for my girlfriend it was really hard, her family accepted she has a girlfriend and I've been in her life for more than a decade, I held her nieces and nephews as babies. Suddenly telling them that she also has a boyfriend was uncomfortable and definitely counts as coming out in my mind.
As a queer trans woman who *cannot participate in monogamy or perform its expectations because I feel like I am being chipped away*, I very much disagree with you OP and people can pry "coming out as poly" from my cold, dead hands. Being polyamorous is not a "choice" for me, it is a fundamental aspect of how I approach and build relationships with others. I could make a choice not to *act* on it, just like I could have made a choice not to transition, or not to date other women, but just like how I'd still be trans and I'd still be queer if I made those choices I would still fundamentally *be* polyamorous. That said, you are allowed to feel however you feel about it in your own personal life, just as those who do use the phrase are. 🤷🏽♀️
I’m queer and I use the language of “coming out” when talking about polyamory. Sure, it’s a choice, but you’re still taking a big risk telling your family, friends, coworkers or employers because it’s unconventional, misunderstood, and not widely accepted.
Bi and non-binary here. I think it's valid to say "coming out" - including to partners because it's not like people don't also come out to their partners as gay, lesbian, bi, trans, etc. and that can affect the relationship including ending it??? - and I don't think that it's a "lifestyle choice" for all of us, certainly not for me. Just like being bi, I had an urge (a STRONG one) to be polyam before I even had the language for it, in MIDDLE school (elementary school for bi).
I would personally feel uncomfortable using that language, although telling my friends, and conservative family especially, felt like discussing a very taboo thing that is responded to very negatively in society. Workplace and general discrimination is very real, and there are no legal protections for ENM/Poly folks. An ex-meta of mine lost two jobs in one year because coworkers or management overheard private conversations while on the phone at the workplace, and was summarily called to the office and fired when It was found out they were Poly. I know it's not the same as having to worry about getting physically attacked like in places in the US, let alone (other) very religiously conservative places in the world, yet repercussions still exist.
So tired of people getting butt hurt over this. I had to hide it and still do. So deal with the language I use or die mad about it.
I'm not straight, but I did marry a man, so take that information as you will. "Our" language. You don't own language. Language is transitory, and it evolves near constantly.
This. Lots of folks need a short crash course on linguistics...
It just amazes me, but then I remember what timeline I'm vibing and sort of just sigh heavy.
I’m a mod on r/queer, and it’s totally fine and normal for poly people to use that term. Stop gatekeeping.
As a queer I don’t think queers own the phrase “coming out” and at age 56 I don’t have time or energy to get offended over something like this.
[удалено]
That’s honestly, the core of the problem. Polyamory, as a cultural movement, needs to stand on its own feet, and define itself outside of the LGBTQIA+. They are separate struggles. The LGBTQIA+ community isn’t “asking for equality” and “not being understanding” It’s a historic and cultural coalition that polyam is not part of. Full stop. Non-monogamy is certainly a part of queer culture for some queers, but it’s a part of a lot of lives that aren’t queer, too.
[удалено]
What meaningful barrier has been set up for you here? And how does it justify your statement that folks in the LGBTQIA+ are being hypocritical for actively fighting against their own oppression?
[удалено]
That’s some super gross victim blaming shit. The ten year old trans kid in Florida who can no longer get appropriate medical care has a problem. The queers are busy right now. Dunno if you noticed, but if you live in the US right now, we are in the middle of the largest queer migration in history. People are leaving their homes and their families. That is a separate struggle from what polyam families face. When polyam and non-monogamous people organize and figure out what allyship looks like, as their own thing, and not look to the big rainbow flag to save them, polyam folks will find a movement of their own.
[удалено]
Oh, where? Like, Poland? Cause gay rights are going so *swimmingly* there? Maybe Italy? Known for their *progressive* stances on homosexuality because of the outsize influence of the Catholic Church? Maybe Greece? Hungary?
[удалено]
We are actively talking about it. You are European. Do you even know what’s happening in your back yard?
Fascism is on the rise globally, friend. Plenty of queer bashing on the continent.
I wouldn’t elevate Europe to a queer utopia, especially considering your behavior and your words. If you are the example of happy euro queer, I’ll pass. You’re ignorant and entitled, and have some big issues.
[удалено]
I mean, I can only judge you by your words. Your words aren’t great.
[удалено]
This actually doesn’t sound like that at all. Because history and culture told a very different story than the exclusionary narrative. You can’t erase Marcia, or who was at Stonewall. There is no “infighting” because while non-monogamy has been part of the queer communities fabric, it’s also got its own history in the cis het allo community as well. Should that be erased? Or acknowledged?
[удалено]
Weird cause here you literally introduced yourself as a mono bisexual. Why does it have to be the first damn thing *you* mention?
[удалено]
And if you’re mono, why do you think you have any skin in this game?
[удалено]
Why is a conversation “getting worked up”? A grasp of history, and a knowledge of global current events is hardly “worked up” Being curious as to why someone who’s mono and a self-loathing queer feels the need to victim shame seems natural to me. Are you worked up? Because I am not. If you are perhaps a walk to clear your head is in order? Suggesting that everyone else is activated, simply because you are? Not the greatest assumption.
But there is a part of the LGBTQIA+ collation, historically, that is specifically about gender, not desire. Intersex and trans folks have always been part of that. And that has nothing to do with sexuality. Which is why a lot of folks mistakenly want to focus on the “not a choice” aspect of the LGBTQIA+ and want to ride its coat tails into legitimacy. My polyam doesn’t have anything to do with my sexual orientation, or my sexuality, honestly. I just like, and thrive in non exclusive relationships. I have literally never been in a monogamous relationship. My sexual desire is a different topic.
[удалено]
The lack of choice isn’t what binds the LGBTQIA+ together. Plenty of other non-choice minorities that aren’t explicitly LGBTQIA+ who have legitimate struggles, who don’t want or need legitimization as explicitly queer, through the LGBTQIA+. And choice, or lack of it, isn’t what stops polyam from being a part of LGBTQIA+. History and circumstances formed that collation. And while “lack of choice” and being “born this way” certainly play a big part in the legitimization and acceptance of, say, gay people, it isn’t the magic ticket to wide open acceptance, globally that many folks seem to think it is. A lack of choice isn’t the key buy in that many folks seem to think it is.
so sad to see all these well meaning people forced at gunpoint to become homophobes bc a gay person was mildly annoyed at their word choice...truly, they wanted better than this for themselves, but the big bad Queers forced their hand...
Right? “They did it themselves”
[удалено]
pretty good con you've got going here. if you blame "the queers" for their own oppression, every time they get upset about it, you have more "proof" of how right you are.
[удалено]
im gonna give it to you exactly as straight as you think you just gave it to me. you haven't cracked the code on LGBT rights with an appeasement doctrine. conformity to a cishet society will not save us. being quiet, good little gays will not get us liberation. the right wing wants us dead for who we are, not what we do. there is no amount of quiet wholesome gayness which right wing American society will tolerate. 96 is in your username, so you should have been alive for Oberfell V Hodges. consult your memory. don't you recall conservatives using your exact arguments to warn against same sex marriage? don't you remember hearing "i dont care if you're gay i just dont want my kids seeing it"? what do you think it says about your argument that those people were all clearly wrong and bigoted? what do you think it says about your beliefs as a bi person that you are parroting conservative talking points designed explicitly to oppress you? why do you think being bisexual shields you from internalizing homophobia? edit: typos, word choice
In my opinion, some people are wired to have a strong preference for non-monogamy, some for monogamy, some are more ambivalent. Polyamory is definitely a choice- it’s a relationship structure that you choose to adhere to. Something being a choice does not make it less valid or important. As a queer trans non-binary person, I view it similarly to my choice to live authentically. Being queer is not a choice I make, but living openly and authentically as myself, dating and loving who I want, having transitioned the ways I have, those are technically choices. “Coming out” does apply to both queerness and polyamory in my opinion. I’ve done both, and both involved being honest about who I am and who I love, and flies in the face of the patriarchal society we live in. Non-monogamy is not queerness, but it shares some aspects.
“God says a relationship is between one man and one woman” I’m pan, genderfluid, poly, and agnostic, so I obviously disagree with ALL of that statement. “Coming out” is used in a way to convey that there can be societal harm from revealing that info publicly. I work for some very conservative people and am just as worried about them finding out about me being pan and genderfluid as I am about being poly. The agnostic part I’m not as worried about, but I still don’t advertise it. Idk, I see plenty of people under the umbrella fighting each other. I had a really good friend where her wife turned out to be a turf. I personally know gay men who truly don’t believe bi men exist, or who would never date a trans man. I know of people who are poly but not allies. I had a potential partner say “cats can’t become dogs”, which I stopped seeing them after that. I’m lucky in that almost my entire chosen social circle is all poly and also under the umbrella. None of us really differentiate between poly and pride, because we see it all as part of the same rejection of being told who to be, and just being who we are regardless. I personally don’t even distinguish between if someone is lgbtqia+ or an ally. If they’re on our side, they’re one of us. I don’t use any of the titles as badges of pride or anything because I don’t have a choice about them. They’re all just a part of me. I feel pride in the progress I’ve made to dig into what they mean and into accepting them in my path of self discovery, but I don’t feel the need to gate-keep the specific language and the titles as I don’t think there’s value in that.
Gay man. I have absolutely no problem with that language being used. Being in a polyamorous or ENM relationship comes with similar mistreatment from society and for many people, telling your family that you are polyamorous can result in being disowned, similar to what many LGBTQ deal with. I'm curious as to why that language has bothered you, it does come across as gatekeeping for sure. To me, coming out can mean telling your friends or family about a part of you that isn't typically accepted or "normal" in society. Polyamorous people certainly do that.
I think you have very valid qualms and are mostly right. ENM in every form is a choice and "coming out" as preferring it to monogamy shouldn't be used to force the partner. I kinda had to learn that the hard way too. But it is still a very unusual form of a relationship and not kindly seen of by some ppl, so I think it is valid to use "coming out" at least in some cases for telling your family and close friends that you will be seeing multiple people.
CIS bisexual who is not out here, and I always felt the same because it feels like it's encroaching on a different experience. I mean, there are similarities and there is a lot of crossover. However, family finding out you're gay or bi versus being poly; hits WAY different. My parents learned of my bisexuality in the worst way possible (outed by 3rd party) and that was awkward as hell. Meanwhile we were never formally outed as poly, but they weren't stupid and noticed we had a lot of friends we met as adults and spent time with. They never pushed or felt it warranted discussion. Heck, after being outed maybe they thought my wife's bfs were mine LOL.
Trans masc NB. Most polyamorous people I know irl are queer anyway, so if they want to call this "coming out" too, that's fine, they understand the nuance. I guess it's a bit annoying coming from cishets if I think about it? But tbh, I don't really think about it or care all that much. I get why you would though
Yeah, I don’t think that’s necessarily fair to say, considering there are people who’ve had to battle with ideologies their entire lives. There are things that people fight on the daily because of what they believe to be moral construct. I do believe any form of sexuality can be a “coming out”. People gate keeping the idea of polyamory doesn’t help those who are trying to understand themselves. Also thank you for acknowledging how we all feel.
Poly is not a choice for everyone. For some, it is their orientation. There is also a lot of social stigma around being poly, so many people feel closeted by it.
Personally I find coming out as poly harder than coming out as bi. Also I am proof that it's not simply a choice after trying and failing over and over to be strictly mono.
I am bi/pan and genderqueer. I am out as bi/pan, but my gender identity is probably more confusing for people, which I'm fine with. I've also been in successful poly relationships for 8 years and unsuccessful before that. I agree this is how I see it used and used it myself when I told my parents about my relationships. >Poly people definitely "come out" to family and friends and can be a very similar experience to LGBT people in that sense. And I think it's a remarkable sign of privilege when a community believes it has the power to gatekeep language. We should be proud of our progress. And, we need to recognize that acceptance looks like integration. And integrating language means also evolving. All language evolves. Maybe there are more ways to come out than just sexual orientation. Maybe the brave pioneers from the LGBTQIA+ community deserve the respect and honor that comes with changing the way society sees identity across a broad spectrum of categories. Maybe we should be proud of the acceptance created by the hard fight of people before us, and not use our new found strength and space to start excluding others. It's OK if it's easier for the next generation than it was for the last. That's the goal of progress.
It was way more difficult - and still is - to come out as poly than as bi.
I don't really mind. But like, the thing you added in the edit, about someone in a mono relationship "coming out" as poly. I dislike that very much! But if it's about, telling your friends and family you're polyamorous, I think you can say coming out
Eh, I'm queer and poly, and coming out as both to family felt much the same. That said, for me being poly is more of a choice – it's still something that's quite different from the norm, and all the same fear around acceptance applies. Equally a lot of people experience being poly as much more of an inherent trait than I do.
Hi, I’m trans and poly, I might be misreading what you mean by “coming out”, but coming out as poly is like, still something i’ve yet to do to my parents, despite being out to them as trans. Conservative immigrant parents don’t exactly take that kind of news well, and for them it’ll be another thing that’s “broken” or “wrong” with their child. I get the poly experience isn’t the same as being trans in like, oppressive dynamics, cuz i live both and feel the difference. But, at least with my parents, the scariest people to come out to, I’m not looking forward to once again having to explain and justify another part of my being, another way in which im not loving and *being* in the right way.
I think the desire for the poly lifestyle isn't a choice, just as much as being gay/trans isn't a choice. The difference is societal acceptance, and lgptqa and polyamory right now are socially different than the normal. Coming out as different is how the phrase works, for everyone. Shit, coming out as Atheist is a Christian family is just as hard. Gatekeeping a phrase seems silly, as words have meaning and everyone understands what coming out means.
As a queer person who came out as poly to my parents a few years ago, I was definitely more worried about how they would react to the poly stuff than the queer stuff. Overall I agree with your second edit, though, it's not a phrase that should be used to polybomb...not that the type of person who would polybomb is paying attention to posts like this.
I’ve been fired for being open about my relationships, and my parents disowned me when I told them. So what do you want from me? Have I not incurred enough costs?
It’s not about suffering enough Jesus. If you do think so. Think that suffering is what this convo is about. Then allow me to introduce you to the rape and murder statistics of trans women. 15 times the national average. For black trans women, murder enters their top 20 causes of death. See look people have suffered more than you. So stopping using the term. When you are ready you can rejoin the conversation when you wanna talk about stuff linguistically and culturally.
[удалено]
Your post has been removed for breaking the rules of the subreddit. You made a post or comment that would be considered being a jerk. This includes being aggressive towards other posters, causing irrelevant arguments, and posting attacks on the poster or the poster's partners/situation. Please familiarize yourself with the rules at https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/wiki/subreddit-rules
I am perfectly aware and your response has nothing to do with my statement. I didn’t invalidate the experiences of those communities. But the costs I’ve incurred for choosing this life are valid and you’re kind of being shitty for whatabouting them. So maybe sit down on this one. I don’t take lectures from baby polys.
Honestly any sexual orientation or preference that isn't the deemed the societal norm could fall under "coming out". I find it stupid that telling your family or friends that you are gay/bi/poly or are into a certain body type is considered coming out like its some abomination. Like you had to hide it out of fear or shame.
[удалено]
Polyamory has straight and gay, cis and trans and non binary, allosexual and asexual and aromatic people under it’s umbrella. It might be part of *your* queer identity. We know it’s *part* of ours, but it is not *exclusively* a queer identity. Just be mindful that polyam is not part of the LGBTQIA+ in and of itself, and we won’t be hosting discussions around if it *should* be included or not. Those discussions should be had in queer-centered spaces. Our community has lots and lots of diversity, but is still dominated by cis het allo folks. Thank you.
There's already been many very well written comments, but I just wanted to add my personal experience/thoughts, and how I arrived there. As a kid/young teen, I was always kinda confused by people saying "being gay isn't a choice!". I still parroted it because I knew the other side of the argument was the "bad guys". But it always confuses me because... to me it kinda did feel like a choice? Well, I'm bi. So. (Just to be clear- being any type of queer ISN'T a choice, but the nuance didn't make sense to my bi brain) I had similar thoughts about whether poly "counts" as an orientation. To me it feels like more of a choice. Yes I can choose to engage in monogamy (and currently am) and be content and happy and fulfilled, but I also could engage in polyamory and be happy and content and fulfilled. I tend to lean towards monogamy mostly for the sake of logistics (and because my partner is monogamous). But I think I'm just ambi-amorous. So... yeah, I can see how a polyamorous heterosexual person might feel the need to "come out".
I'm Pansexual and Solo Poly. I still tell people.
I find it an interesting thought exercise when reading this sort of thing to replace arguments against poly being something that some people 'are' rather than 'choose' with them being gay/trans etc to try to see where the logic does and doesn't hold up For example, gay people can 'choose' to live lives with a spouse of the opposite gender/'choose' to live an open life living and loving who they are actually attracted to. It's not a perfect comparison, but I find it useful at least.
I think it’s highly uninformed and seems to indicate a bunch of cishet folks think they’re at risk of being hate crimed or the government literally persecuting them for having two partners. The attempt to coop queer oppression to . . . idk, make their life more dramatic or something is very gross to me.
Conversations on a topic mentioned in this post can tend to get very heated with high emotions on each side, please remember that we are a community meant to **help each other**, please keep conversations civil, even if you don't agree. And don't forget, the mods are only a report away. Any comments derailing the topic or considered trolling/being a jerk will be removed and the user muted for an undisclosed amount of time. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/polyamory) if you have any questions or concerns.*