I left academia after doing a postdoc for 6 months and literally doubled my salary. Postdoc will never be worth the endless hassle and "abuse" by PIs who think they're amazing and use all your output to praise/progress themselves.
A postdoc is not a long term job. It's a placeholder to get more research output and build your profile that will hopefully land you in a long term, better paying position.
The people who go into a postdoc without a clear strategic reason are only doing it to themselves. Anyone can get stuck at any job hating it if they have no end goal. A person goes into a postdoc with X, Y, Z objective by A date, did it happen? Why or why not? People who don’t reassess their situation every few months are bound to be frustrated. I see so many times postdocs do 2,3,4+ year post doc and not once reevaluated their situation in any of them years until the panic button is pressed. That is a self inflicted gunshot wound
This is precisely what I have wondered. As PhDs our work is designed to be planned, so how come that often doesn't translate to the development of a career path? I understand that sometimes there are circumstances that can't be controlled like hiring freezes or bad economies. I really don't get how there isn't consistently a very clear plan of options for after the postdoc ends to account for the need for an increased salary, focusing on other priorities, etc. In the real world I run into more postdocs that just sort of walked into those roles because it seemed like the right thing to do versus having a clear plan of how it would serve them.
You can say that about any non-professional degree. Someone who gets a bachelors/masters in marketing has to find a job somewhere eventually. There is no clearer path for those degree holders either.
If you want to do a postdoc to become a PI then join a lab that has prestige and publishes high impact articles and make the right connections. If you want to do a postdoc to go into industry then look at all the jobs you will apply for in 1/2/3 years and get all those skills and network.
During the PhD the end goal is the degree. When you transition into postdoc then the end goal is up to the postdoc. Nobody can choose what you want to do. Clear path to what exactly? Do you want a PhD to be like an MD in that after your PhD, you do a residency for X years, and then become a PI, a biotech worker, a government employee? You can’t just say “clear path” and not define it.
I don’t disagree, but at least from my experience very few grad students or postdocs get any meaningful career advice.
On the academic path I mostly got nothing or advice based on how things worked in the 70s/80s/90s that clearly doesn’t reflect today’s job market. It’s also incredibly difficult to seek out sound advice when every institution has their own idiosyncrasies, opaque processes, and just completely disconnection from what departments/faculty/hiring committees want and what the administration/hr require.
On the industry side, advice is even worse. At best stories of some former student in the department. Most of the people who should be giving career advice only have experience in academia.
People without a plan are 100% shooting themselves in the foot. It’s not necessarily their fault they ended up in the situation … and hopefully they realize before it’s too late.
I transitioned from a postdoc to a project management role at the same institution. I work from home most days, usually don't work nearly as hard, and make about twice as much. If you can't beat them, join them.
wow! So you actually did what I'm pondering here! Good for you. Honest question - do you cope at all with being seen/treated as "lesser than" - like you're no longer a #researcher therefore you're a support staff and there's weird ego and hierarchy stuff to cope with. Is this real?
I'm sure some people might have that viewpoint, but it's of no matter to me. The toxic culture of researchers thinking their job is a higher calling worth the low pay and long hours will rage on, with or without me. I'm just trying to pay my bills.
Interesting to see the discussions here. I can only comment from a specifice point of view:
1. Swiss Research Institute (large research facilties): So only "Hard Sciences"
2. I'm in admin (engineer/MBA background) with supporing
Postdocs here are capped at 2y (hard!) max 2 postdocs (so max 4y) min. 1 of which must be abroad.
Clear expectations to build: Network, Publications, Grants and specialized knowledge.
Clear that this is a step toward an academic path of which less than 30% of Postdocs will get a chance to proceed.
--> Strong push to collaborate with industry (implied as a stepping stone for industry job)
All in all: PosDocs look like a free range chaotic proving ground where dedicated and goal oriented people have a lot of chances to excell. I've seen people raise up to more than a million in grants and boost their path toward tenure/professorship, others collaborating with industry and finding their path there. And all of those came from their own initiatives.
But as everywhere many push out a few papers with no clear plans and wait for "good things (tm)" to happen.... they would likely have done better getting a job. It's not useless by any means, but in those cases they were exactly the cheap labor described by many.
Advice: If academia is not at least one of your strong goals: its not for you. If you prefer a more guided environment with handrails, this is not it! All universities etc. I have personally attended/worked at or visited have some form of career office --> Use it!
Secondly Postdocs are expected to take ownership, push for their research (well argued and generally be taking on leadership qualities). Nobody will hold your hand and tell you that though and the PI will push back of course as most of your ideas will required some of their resources. Like any good project your will have to convice them that it is a good idea and that you are the person to deliver!
The Postdocs I have interacted with have all found good jobs (or started their own company. And often the experiences (especially abroad) is what differentiated them.
you know what's peak irony? i left straight after my PhD and have been working remote in a role like this and my post-doc gave me so much shit. He has been there for 8 years and also makes about 60% of what i do. He told me he could never do that because it was not fulfilling, and that i have to "find meaning in my work and life".
in those two months i've travelled to five states and three different countries, shrug.
I asked my coordinator (they’re desperately understaffed) and she said I’m overqualified lol
Same response I get from industry positions that pay almost double my salary for a bachelor’s degree and only 5 years of experience. 🤷♂️
Postdoc is such a scam.
This is so true that it is sick how low postdocs paid. we are doing really fundamental research, not responding to emails, Zoom, etc. We are dealing as well with lots of hazards, etc, it is just sad. I myself doing 5 yrs postdoc, it was supposed to be two years, then all of sudden covid came. I lost my opportunity to get any nih grant as well, not much data. Now I have data, but the awards I can apply have year after PhD. limit. If you have a residency of the country, you are doing postdoc, just switch to a senior research manager, etc, position or go to industry. I personally can't handle the stress of the industry either and prefer to have my own office as a PI write grants in peace in my corner. It is my dream, but now seems a hard way to get there. At the end of the day, it is your decision to how you gonna develop in your career
I stayed in it for the visa. I left after getting my GC doubled my salary and halved my workload while taking a job that doesn't require a PhD. It's a total scam
Have you considered asking your supervisor if you could be hired as a staff scientist? Often there is more latitude in salary for staff scientists than postdocs. Universities frequently cap postdoc pay for "equity."
Wait until you hear how much CEOs make compared to workers in their company.
Pay scales aren’t set based on intrinsic views of value to the organization and fairness. It does still suck tho.
I don't get the fuss about this - a postdoc is essentially a trainee role whereas a to be a PM would require more experience, a wider range of skills, and brings a lot of responsibility (plus most of them also have PhDs). Of course they're going to earn a lot more than you!
Part of the reason that I left for industry straight after my PhD was that the bitter postdocs looked down on the non-research staff despite them being equally qualified and more accomplished than they were. You're not as important as you think you are!
You don’t say anything about their longevity. Have they been working at the uni for 5-20 years with raises to show for it? Just because someone doesn’t have a PhD doesn’t mean they should make less than essentially a trainee.
Im mid career PhD. There are plenty of hard working people in other roles in my organization that have been there longer than me, don’t have a PhD, make more money than me, and also deserve it because of their experience and the things they deal with on the daily. Just because we got a longer education doesn’t always mean we should make more right off the bat.
You’re getting paid an amount based on what it would cost to replace you. There are no “shoulds,” you just need to be strategic about what job you take. For some circumstances, a postdoc makes perfect sense based on long-term goals. For others, not so much.
Well you just had a great epiphany that postdoc is a scam.
I left academia after doing a postdoc for 6 months and literally doubled my salary. Postdoc will never be worth the endless hassle and "abuse" by PIs who think they're amazing and use all your output to praise/progress themselves.
At my old job, the technician with a bachelor degree and two years of experience made more than a postdoc position I interviewed for
Postdoc is the greatest scam designed by Academia. They don’t want to hire scientists on H1B or with higher salary.
Great reckoning.
A postdoc is not a long term job. It's a placeholder to get more research output and build your profile that will hopefully land you in a long term, better paying position.
The people who go into a postdoc without a clear strategic reason are only doing it to themselves. Anyone can get stuck at any job hating it if they have no end goal. A person goes into a postdoc with X, Y, Z objective by A date, did it happen? Why or why not? People who don’t reassess their situation every few months are bound to be frustrated. I see so many times postdocs do 2,3,4+ year post doc and not once reevaluated their situation in any of them years until the panic button is pressed. That is a self inflicted gunshot wound
This is precisely what I have wondered. As PhDs our work is designed to be planned, so how come that often doesn't translate to the development of a career path? I understand that sometimes there are circumstances that can't be controlled like hiring freezes or bad economies. I really don't get how there isn't consistently a very clear plan of options for after the postdoc ends to account for the need for an increased salary, focusing on other priorities, etc. In the real world I run into more postdocs that just sort of walked into those roles because it seemed like the right thing to do versus having a clear plan of how it would serve them.
You can say that about any non-professional degree. Someone who gets a bachelors/masters in marketing has to find a job somewhere eventually. There is no clearer path for those degree holders either. If you want to do a postdoc to become a PI then join a lab that has prestige and publishes high impact articles and make the right connections. If you want to do a postdoc to go into industry then look at all the jobs you will apply for in 1/2/3 years and get all those skills and network. During the PhD the end goal is the degree. When you transition into postdoc then the end goal is up to the postdoc. Nobody can choose what you want to do. Clear path to what exactly? Do you want a PhD to be like an MD in that after your PhD, you do a residency for X years, and then become a PI, a biotech worker, a government employee? You can’t just say “clear path” and not define it.
I don’t disagree, but at least from my experience very few grad students or postdocs get any meaningful career advice. On the academic path I mostly got nothing or advice based on how things worked in the 70s/80s/90s that clearly doesn’t reflect today’s job market. It’s also incredibly difficult to seek out sound advice when every institution has their own idiosyncrasies, opaque processes, and just completely disconnection from what departments/faculty/hiring committees want and what the administration/hr require. On the industry side, advice is even worse. At best stories of some former student in the department. Most of the people who should be giving career advice only have experience in academia. People without a plan are 100% shooting themselves in the foot. It’s not necessarily their fault they ended up in the situation … and hopefully they realize before it’s too late.
Absolutely agree. Those I know who have struggled have not advocated for themselves or planned a strategy for their future career goals
I transitioned from a postdoc to a project management role at the same institution. I work from home most days, usually don't work nearly as hard, and make about twice as much. If you can't beat them, join them.
wow! So you actually did what I'm pondering here! Good for you. Honest question - do you cope at all with being seen/treated as "lesser than" - like you're no longer a #researcher therefore you're a support staff and there's weird ego and hierarchy stuff to cope with. Is this real?
I'm sure some people might have that viewpoint, but it's of no matter to me. The toxic culture of researchers thinking their job is a higher calling worth the low pay and long hours will rage on, with or without me. I'm just trying to pay my bills.
So quit and do that.
It’s a training role. Are you gaining necessary training? If not, get out.
Interesting to see the discussions here. I can only comment from a specifice point of view: 1. Swiss Research Institute (large research facilties): So only "Hard Sciences" 2. I'm in admin (engineer/MBA background) with supporing Postdocs here are capped at 2y (hard!) max 2 postdocs (so max 4y) min. 1 of which must be abroad. Clear expectations to build: Network, Publications, Grants and specialized knowledge. Clear that this is a step toward an academic path of which less than 30% of Postdocs will get a chance to proceed. --> Strong push to collaborate with industry (implied as a stepping stone for industry job) All in all: PosDocs look like a free range chaotic proving ground where dedicated and goal oriented people have a lot of chances to excell. I've seen people raise up to more than a million in grants and boost their path toward tenure/professorship, others collaborating with industry and finding their path there. And all of those came from their own initiatives. But as everywhere many push out a few papers with no clear plans and wait for "good things (tm)" to happen.... they would likely have done better getting a job. It's not useless by any means, but in those cases they were exactly the cheap labor described by many. Advice: If academia is not at least one of your strong goals: its not for you. If you prefer a more guided environment with handrails, this is not it! All universities etc. I have personally attended/worked at or visited have some form of career office --> Use it! Secondly Postdocs are expected to take ownership, push for their research (well argued and generally be taking on leadership qualities). Nobody will hold your hand and tell you that though and the PI will push back of course as most of your ideas will required some of their resources. Like any good project your will have to convice them that it is a good idea and that you are the person to deliver! The Postdocs I have interacted with have all found good jobs (or started their own company. And often the experiences (especially abroad) is what differentiated them.
you know what's peak irony? i left straight after my PhD and have been working remote in a role like this and my post-doc gave me so much shit. He has been there for 8 years and also makes about 60% of what i do. He told me he could never do that because it was not fulfilling, and that i have to "find meaning in my work and life". in those two months i've travelled to five states and three different countries, shrug.
I asked my coordinator (they’re desperately understaffed) and she said I’m overqualified lol Same response I get from industry positions that pay almost double my salary for a bachelor’s degree and only 5 years of experience. 🤷♂️ Postdoc is such a scam.
what does overqualified even mean. Lucky them, if you're overqualified!!
Overqualified means they throw My applications in the garbage and I’m stuck making 20hr as a postdoc lol
This is so true that it is sick how low postdocs paid. we are doing really fundamental research, not responding to emails, Zoom, etc. We are dealing as well with lots of hazards, etc, it is just sad. I myself doing 5 yrs postdoc, it was supposed to be two years, then all of sudden covid came. I lost my opportunity to get any nih grant as well, not much data. Now I have data, but the awards I can apply have year after PhD. limit. If you have a residency of the country, you are doing postdoc, just switch to a senior research manager, etc, position or go to industry. I personally can't handle the stress of the industry either and prefer to have my own office as a PI write grants in peace in my corner. It is my dream, but now seems a hard way to get there. At the end of the day, it is your decision to how you gonna develop in your career
Admin is the way. Even as a prof, you may not touch the salary window of an admin assistant position.
You had better not look up what the football coach makes….
If your main driving force is money leave and go into a better paid job like consulting
I stayed in it for the visa. I left after getting my GC doubled my salary and halved my workload while taking a job that doesn't require a PhD. It's a total scam
Have you considered asking your supervisor if you could be hired as a staff scientist? Often there is more latitude in salary for staff scientists than postdocs. Universities frequently cap postdoc pay for "equity."
Wait until you hear how much CEOs make compared to workers in their company. Pay scales aren’t set based on intrinsic views of value to the organization and fairness. It does still suck tho.
I don't get the fuss about this - a postdoc is essentially a trainee role whereas a to be a PM would require more experience, a wider range of skills, and brings a lot of responsibility (plus most of them also have PhDs). Of course they're going to earn a lot more than you! Part of the reason that I left for industry straight after my PhD was that the bitter postdocs looked down on the non-research staff despite them being equally qualified and more accomplished than they were. You're not as important as you think you are!
You don’t say anything about their longevity. Have they been working at the uni for 5-20 years with raises to show for it? Just because someone doesn’t have a PhD doesn’t mean they should make less than essentially a trainee.
Just because someone doesn't have a PhD doesn't mean they should make less than essentially a doctor. ifify
Im mid career PhD. There are plenty of hard working people in other roles in my organization that have been there longer than me, don’t have a PhD, make more money than me, and also deserve it because of their experience and the things they deal with on the daily. Just because we got a longer education doesn’t always mean we should make more right off the bat.
You’re getting paid an amount based on what it would cost to replace you. There are no “shoulds,” you just need to be strategic about what job you take. For some circumstances, a postdoc makes perfect sense based on long-term goals. For others, not so much.