You're right. A PhD has such a high opportunity cost it's hard to justify. Now in some fields you need a 1-2 year 'pre-doc' for decent programs, typically 6 years for PhD, and maybe a 2-3 year post-doc (if you fail to place in academia).
That's a total of 9-11 years of poverty wages, which could easily be $1 million if you would have had a decent salary (went in to tech of consulting after undergrad).
Preach
You’ve hit on it exactly. I feel like too many academics dismiss too hastily the costs of doing a postdoc and the prolonged academic career track on lifetime earnings and savings. Waiting another 2-6 years into your mid to late 30s can make it that much more difficult to catch up and to be on track to retire
i worked as a research tech for a year between undergrad and grad school and made a cool $13k working 60-80 hours a week. i had two side jobs as well so i could afford to pay my super low rent in a shared house and buy all my groceries from aldi. i walked home from work which was an hour most days because i was too poor to take the bus twice a day. the pi found a loophole to hire me as a temp worker for beyond what would normally be allowed so he didn’t have to give me benefits. if i’d had benefits i would have had free public transportation which would have made a huge difference to me.
i never ever want to work that hard and to be that poor ever again. i’m about to finish my phd and i’m leaving academia.
Are these pretty common in life sciences?
I haven't seen these in quantum computing unless I have been living under a rock after I entered grad school.
I don’t know about all fields but in psych and cognitive neuro and social neuro they’re super common. It’s getting to the point they’re almost a requirement to be competitive
I’ve heard about them in Econ too. Not sure about all other fields
Given I decided to leave academia after my PhD, I regret doing the postbac. Waste of some of my best years to invest for retirement
From my experience (in life sciences) it was basically a research lab technician/assistant role with a 1 to 2-year commitment and minimum wage but with 1 ✨ free ✨ graduate level class a semester as a benefit. Very easy to get exploited though via the thought of a weak letter of reference from PIs. The pre-docs work their tail off to put their PhD program application package together, taking GREs &/or coursework, applying to programs, traveling for potential interviews, etc etc while maintaining your own project(s) & supporting the lab’s projects and management duties as well while hoping to get admitted to 1 PhD program at the very least.
This is why I declined all my postdoc offers and went into industry. I evaluated all the pros and cons and it’s hard to dismiss the overwhelming imbalance of cons relative to pros, especially in the context of other careers, unless you’re incredibly dedicated to an academic career, have a financial safety net (wealthy parents) or have no other options (immigrated, visa).
The compensation, benefits and moving for a temporary job with often times little to no financial assistance is absolutely insane, especially given that it provides you with no assurance that it will provide you with a TT role in academia. Too shitty of a job with too negative of an impact on your life with too few benefits and positive outcomes, incredibly high risk
I agree it’s a scam and I’m surprised so many in this thread defend it: no other career pursuit asks you to do a 2-4 year temporary job in another state or continent often times in bumfuck nowhere at a low salary for the possibility of maybe getting an opportunity at an okay paying job after, but probably not.
The proposition is nuts when you break it down
I tell you one thing, post docs are great for “pivoting” into a higher paying career field.
I went from purely applied stats to an AI & Big Data post doc at a top 5 university for around 3 years, and my salary prospects in industry improved by a whole lot.
I think this is the only possible escenario where a post doc is a good idea.
Also people defending post docs are probably professors
This is why postdocs should be unionized. My experience is very different from the one you describe. I think the only statement that feels true is the expectation to publish a CNS paper in two years lol.
Totally agree. In US, this is good only for immigrants because they want to stay here. Most of smart and toxic PI just hire J1- visa postdocs because they can use them 200% without respect.
My theory is that as the incentives are so utterly shit for an academic career, it will basically be only a career track for folks from a wealthy family pursue because they have a financial safety net and the low income doesn’t matter and immigrants pursue because it provides opportunity, with the exception of some people pursuing it despite the poor incentives
Otherwise, the incentives in the US are utter trash and people will be (already are) increasingly motivated to pursue alternative career paths
It's not that we want to stay there, in fact I believe the J1 -> green card track is non-trivial.
US postdocs offer good pay relative to other countries. For example, in France, my net salary would be about $2200. In the US, it is a little over $5500 even after health insurance. Cost of living is higher, but it doesn't close the gap. There's very few countries in the world that would match that US pay. Maybe Switzerland and a couple other European countries, the Gulf countries, perhaps the financial and industrial centres in S-E Asia (even then, I'm not sure).
There are some financial advantages in France and other countries with strong social nets, though, but postdocs are usually too healthy, young and childless to benefit from them. For instance, taxes include your contributions to the State pension, so people don't really invest in funds out of their net like you do in the US. The net is for groceries, rent, and leisure. Similarly, there's things you pay out of pocket that we mostly don't in Europe, or much less, like kindergarten or medical expenses. But again, young, healthy and childless.
Another aspect is the networking. From within a given country, you can more easily build a network with people from that same country. It's much harder to do as someone working on a different continent. The US is pretty central in worldwide academia, concentrating many of the most prestigious universities, conferences, etc. So as a foreigner, it's always a desirable thing to build a network with US academics and industry.
So in summary, if you want to pursue research, and your origin country's academic culture demands postdocs, there's hardly a better place to do that than in the US.
As for treating people without respect, I'm sure that happens a lot, the situation is ripe for it. But I think if you're backed by your PhD advisor or previous employer, that should limit the damage, as the host PI's reputation with their colleagues becomes engaged. By the way, wouldn't the same thing happen for H1-B visas?
In my field, most citizens just go to the industry or government jobs directly. The international scholars were the ones stuck in the postdoc loop due to visas.
I was a postdoc in the US and this was not my experience at all. I am now an assistant professor with a postdoc in my lab and none of these things hold either.
Can you advice on how to leave postdoc and get promoted to assistant or instructor I like to get the lowest possible grant to just be independent I can't find a way to get out of postdoc stuck loop my research is not bad reached to 600 sth citations in total but noone funds my ideas lol
I understand that not all of OP's points are universal to others' experiences, but how do you and others in this reply not identify with the limitations on finances and family planning? Do you have a well-paid spouse? My wife and I are both in academia -- I just defended my PhD, and she's a research technician -- and it's completely financially unsustainable to stay the course with our one young child, let alone two. The pay is a legitimate barrier to achieving the personal life we want.
postdoc salaries in Austria are pretty high; in Vienna it's almost 5k a month which is far above the median wage, and pretty competitive with regular jobs (at least in the humanities and social sciences).
the insecurity is another thing though, that's just as bad here. you never know if you'll get another job in the same city or have to move after a year or two.
I worked in the NL, Germany and Sweden during my PhD and postdoc years. This was my experience, it was totally a scam. Perhaps those who are not experiencing that are somewhat lucky but majority of postdocs are experiencing what OP says. Europe is no different from the US, everything depends on your boss, field and lab culture
Nothing new here. People who need visas and immigration pathways will come and do it anyway.
Postdoc is now an immigration program instead of a training program.
Yup, I was one of them but left for eventually left for a tt job. Some of my peers have been doing it for over 15 years, they eventually became staff scientist but they’re still on yearly contract making postdoc salary.
Agreed! I am on my way out and the delusional people staying in can keep it. Don't forget all the stupid "training" from our well paid administration gods too!!
Postdoc experiences are totally PI dependent and this is why it’s important to talk to previous lab members when interviewing. Salaries are increasing with NIH min at 60k. PI salaries for R1 institutions are around $100k+ starting which isn’t bad.
This is very important. The NIH pay increase is making it very difficult for settings with different funding lines to continue to find anyone willing to take the 30-40k they're offering. I think potential postdocs are starting to realize the 'we can't offer raises' and 'there's no more money' lines were always bs. They do have money, they're just refusing to offer it.
I have no idea why this is being downvoted. It is at or below the US median income for a family of 4 after over 10 years of education and training. Its absolutely less than you should be earning ideally as a person in their 30s with a lot of time sunk into education
R1 Universities are almost always in big cities, MCOL or higher.
Sure if you live in BumFuck Alabama, 60k is enough but chances are you going to live a big city which all of them have became pretty expensive in the last 5 years
I do agree that postdocs should be paid more than 60K, but it's also an early career position. It's really only the second step in the academic career ladder. Compared to career stages in other jobs, is it common for people to have two kids when just beginning?
I mean this is why it’s a scam. Convincing people they’re still a trainee and this is an early career role is part of the deceit and the scam— You’re in your mid 30s and shouldn’t be considered early career or a trainee after a decade of education and being halfway to being dead of old age!
Career stages do not always track age and it varies by field. As an example, I have an early career colleague at a lab in her 50s, and I became an Assistant Professor at 31. We're both early career scholars.
IMO no one is scamming you, but academia is not a traditional career and the reward structures are different (and obviously not for everyone).
But if industry is the goal then they shouldn't be doing a postdoc in the first place. They don't need it. Industry jobs are very different, there's different expectations, different daily tasks, and of course different pay. Doubling my salary would still not make me get an industry job, because it's very different from my academic job which I enjoy.
It's a different job and career trajectory, that's what I am saying. It might be almost the same as a postdoc, who's just a scientist/researcher, but not as a professor (the better part of an academic career), who is not just a scientist.
These are very different careers and the comparison of compensation is silly. No one has ever made an argument for academia as a well-compensated job, that's not why we choose it.
Edited to add: I could be making five times my current salary if I went into finance straight out of my Math bachelors, but it's a moot point. People choose careers for different reasons.
I never used the terms "should" or "allowed". People can do whatever they want.
But it does raise the question of life goals and career expectations. Similarly, if someone wants to have a family of 4 at 25, then I'd say that doing a PhD might not be the wisest choice financially either.
This is such a strange comparison. I finished my PhD and entered the "first step" of the industry career ladder making 90k. So, to answer your question: no, it's not comparable.
I think the "common" comparison of $ to years in a job is silly and pointless, because academic job stages are different from most jobs. I think most people in this thread comparing how much they make at each age or X years after PhD are completely missing the point of an academic job.
The comparison to how much money one makes between industry and academia is a silly comparison in general; I don't think I've ever met an academic who does it for the money. If money is a big motivator for someone then they shouldn't be in academia and certainly not be doing a postdoc.
i think your comparison of "do people at similar career stages in other jobs often have children" is sillier and more pointless.
i'm pointing out that people at similar career stages in other post-PhD jobs *usually can afford children*. They may or may not for various reasons. Howevever, I think actually yes there are many people at post-doc equivalent career stages outside of academia that have children, i just don't know if there is data on this.
it's also worth noting that you are responding to a post specifically discussing financial barriers to having children as a post-doc.
Join a union. I am a full employee with 403b and 8% matching for retirement (the most I’ve gotten from industry was 5% matching), subsidized health/dental/vision, and I mostly WFH except for meetings or department seminars / social events. My advisor doesn’t care when or how much PTO I take, as long as the work gets done. I rarely work weekends or the long hours I did as a PhD. I treat it like a normal job, because it is IMO. The take home pay isn’t great compared to what I could make in industry, but most tech companies have an equally toxic work-life culture as academia. And the job market sucks right now.
This is especially true in biological sciences. I am a biophysicist, and made something like 2/3 the salary of my peers in condensed matter as a postdoc due to being on an NIH grant versus a Physics NSF grant. I think this has gotten better, but I am still bitter.
Worked out ok for me, since I did one three year postdoc and then got a tenure track job at a regional public university. I could do that because of industry pulling a significant number of Physics graduate students into non-academic positions.
If you don't have a good paying reservoir of industry jobs, then academia is a Ponzi scheme. Each research group graduates 10s to 100s of replacements for the PI over their academic lifetime.
I see your point, but what is the alternative? Presumably one did PhD because they love research, but they won’t get a job without post doc! Otherwise, the argument should become don’t do a PhD.
Are you referring to academia or industry? Because postdocs are definitely not very valued or important for non academic roles
My sassy answer would be if the incentives are shit and postdocs are a scam and it’s part of the academic trajectory, say fuck you to academia, and say I deserve better
If that were true, no one would do a post doc. The number of jobs is very less compared to number of phds. And the employer would prefer people with post doc, which he already has available, so why would he choose a phd without post doc.
lol funnily enough, you anticipated my thoughts. I think if you’re trying to secure a stable financial future and prepare for retirement and provide for your family, and if you’re coming from a lower SES family and want to lift your family up the economic ladder, a more direct path to securing your finances is often not (not always not!) doing a PhD. But you can do a PhD if you feel that intellectual fulfillment and the pursuit of a PhD is weighted as a larger priority for you. People should just be aware it’s usually not the best path towards being financially stable
The number of people doing postdocs does seem to be declining though... it's gone down more than 10% in 2 YEARS, isn't that crazy? [https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-01038-z#:\~:text=According%20to%20the%20latest%20data,2022%2C%20from%2021%2C902%20to%2019%2C585](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-01038-z#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20latest%20data,2022%2C%20from%2021%2C902%20to%2019%2C585)
And that's not even distinguishing US citizens from non-US citizens... in my experience, the # of US citizens starting post-docs has gone down a lot in the five years I've been at a T20 uni. More and more companies and alt careers are no longer requiring post doc experience.
Actually, depending on the career path, some companies would prefer a fresh PhD than someone with postdoc experience. PhDs are already too expensive salary-wise, additional experience equals more $$$$ that has to be paid out.
Plus in some cases, doing a postdoc implies that someone is on the academic path. Sometimes switching gives the impression that they’re coming to industry bc they couldn’t cut it in academia.
Final point, transitioning to industry requires way more than discipline-specific knowledge. Applicants need to demonstrate various transferable skills like leadership, team-work, communication, service, etc. grad schools career development do a better job of prepping grad students to develop these skills than postdoc specific career development.
I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but fresh PhDs typically look more attractive than those with postdoc experience. Though there are other nuanced points that are exceptions, fresh PhDs should feel obligated to do a postdoc to get a job in industry. Instead, they should focus their efforts in the last year of their PhD networking, applying for industry internships/fellowships. That would give a greater edge than postdoc experience.
I’m on the job market right now and it is virtually impossible to get a job right out of grad school (my field is life sciences, industry is biotech/pharma). Recent layoffs have meant that the market is saturated with people looking for jobs with industry experience, which is always going to be preferable for companies over a fresh grad. Doing a postdoc is basically the only way to be competitive right now for an industry job.
There are few good reasons to go to grad school/postdoc etc until you’ve already developed a financial foundation.
It can be a financially ruinous decision. I almost never recommend a student to go straight into a PhD program.
All of them are true. In addition you are baited to believe you need to secure your own salary by earning a scholarship. Most of the PIs make you believe it is a great thing to have the fellowships (MSCA, EMBO etc) which is bullshit. A professional at the age of 30, living on a scholarship or writing for months to earn that minimum wage or average salary, that is totally pathetic. There is nothing good about that, you are a free labor! I can't believe how many PhD students fall for that cause there is a competition going on, I think people in academia are really motivated by toxic things
Can’t agree more with this post . I am an immigrant stuck in postdoc and we don’t have an option as we are on visa and for getting into industry is less likely to get in as industry rarely sponsor visa . For getting greencard it takes years , so we have to do postdoc no matter what and it’s tough with family as an non immigrant :(
I agree with many things you said. But I would say Pdoc is still worth it for people who are really interested in or love the research field they are in, so much that they are willing to take those risks. Another thing really important is that you will need some saving or external financial support (parents, partners, investment whatever) to get you through it, until you get a tenure track or eventually leave academia. That's how I am able to hang on for a few years.
That is one of the benefits of being a Ph.D holder from a developing country. Any postdoc is a win, economic and portfolio. My current postdoc salary 20x of a faculty in my country. Even my Ph.D salary was 10x of a faculty in my country.
It looks good on my profile as well, opening up a much better opportunity.
I will never aim USA to do postdoc or faculty member.
Most can't avoid it. When you're in a scientist market with people recruiting only experienced PhDs, then you have no choice. Only very few fresh PhDs can get into the industry nowadays. As for the salary, it really depends on your situation. Obviously, having a family of 2 children is a big fat NO.
This isn’t true. The majority of life sciences phds do not go into postdocs now. There are a huge number of jobs in consulting, patent work, government and industry.
I have had a very different experience, I currently make 58K which isn't fantastic but far from wage slavery. I have the opportunity to become a PI if I want to, but may go into industry depending on where I could get an offer. My PI is great. I am a university employee and have a retirement account with matched contributions from the university so it currently has about 18K in it. I don't work weekends and work from home on Fridays.
Buddy!! Hate to break your bubble, 58k after a PhD, is NOT a good salary.
Daycare costs close to $20-30k in US for a year, rent will be somewhere $10-25k, health insurance $3-5k. Will you eat, travel, have a car, make some savings?? 58k is a bad salary.
Academia people live in weird self-hate and inferiority complex, say it with me, 58k is not a good salary, nowhere close to it.
Most STEM Bachelors will make more than $58k. Many jobs that don't require 10yr degrees, make way above 58k.
I get health insurance from work, and as I said I do have retirement savings. The average pay for a masters in computer science is only 68K. I could maybe expect to make 10K more if I personally moved into industry since I don’t have the same skills as the average cs masters student. I live very comfortably in a low cost of living area. I am 28, I don’t have kids. If you’re in your mid 30s with kids I can understand being upset but in that case it probably wasn’t a good idea for you to get a PhD.
Post-doc is good for moving to a new country. If you want to move to the US after your PhD, there aren't any easy options besides a post-doc. Other than that, yeah. they are not very useful, especially if you intend to move to industry as most engineering PhDs want to do.
I solely used it as a buffer period to get a faculty job. I brought in my own money for my first 2 post doc years, and I had a super hands off PI, so I was able to get away with low output. I was fortunate enough to get a fac job during my second year, so then it's like, well my PI isn't gonna terminate my contract now regardless of my output. Although only time will tell whether that choice screwed me over as far as future grants go....
But yes, salary and treatment are a nightmare. I just lucked out with a crazily hands off PI who's busy with other, needier students in the lab, so hours and 'vacation' time are completely up to me (within reason). I think it's only worth it if you're confident you can get a job you'd be happy with in 2-4 years. Use the first 1 or 2 years as calibrating that possibility
I'm a recent postdoc (<1 year) in the life sciences (neuroscience) living with a family (spouse [working full time], 2-3 kids) being paid near NIH minimum recommendation (55-60K) in a large metropolitan US city at an R1 institution (postdoc fellow, employee, full benefits). I make enough to meet my family needs and beyond for the first time in 6 years and have no issue with my work/life balance (30-40 hrs per week, vacation days). I also have excellent support from my peers and mentor, which make a huge impact on navigating my career.
I understand hardships, especially in academic research, but feel compelled to say that, while far from ideal, academic postdocs provide a means to meet a typical middle-income life. There are tons of factors (debt, living costs, lab environment, PI, etc.) that influence how feasible this is, but I want reiterate for other young scientists that it is not all soul-crushing difficulty on the other side of things. My postdoc experience is leagues better than my graduate school struggle, but again, academic improvements are absolutely necessary so that experiences like OPs are no longer acceptable and those like my own are the norm.
If you don't want to do a postdoc, but got stuck in one because of the terrible job market (Again, USA. Late 2023-2024 massive tech and biopharma layoffs) what's the way out? I'm still trying to find one. I hope they dont think I WANT to stay in Academia!
From my POV, conditions aren't that bad but could be better. We're currently working on it, mostly at a university level, but we are updated regarding the efforts of other universities as well. I see a lot of people complaining, but not many actually doing something. Does it take more of your already meagre free time? It does, but we're talking about our livelihoods and our futures! Talk to other postdocs, get together, collect data, talk to the university, and unionise if you have to. If you're not happy, DO SOMETHING, don't just stand there being miserable and spread thin because "if I suck it up for x years, it will get better"
This comment is a bit insensitive? Most postdocs in the US are international, taking part in some of these activities might not be possible due to fear. Also unionization is not a luxury in a lot of states in the US.
I partly agree. I'm from Europe, did postdocs in the US and in France in the life sciences.
In the US, salaries were OK, but I earned the same in Nebraska as in Miami and to live in the latter, it wasn't nearly enough to cover costs of living, so I left. I'm not a volunteer. Also, the work-life balance in the US can be insane but I just kept my own pace. I never work on weekends or evenings, I don't do lunch at my desk and I take all my vacation time. My PI did and she's a nasty lady with no personal life, so not my role model.
In France, salaries were low but work-life balance much better: more social life, much paid time off (that most people actually take), and of course, good benefits.
In my four postdocs, I had one toxic PI and I left as soon as possible. I'm not dealing with that shit. After that, all my PI's were wonderful and I'm still close friends with all of them!
So, my conclusion would be: postdoc life can be really hard but I've also really enjoyed it. I traveled a lot, met wonderful people, did good research and I'm now a pi at a really good uni. You have to take life in your own hands: bad PI >> leave; don't work more than you get paid for (systematically); take your time off, and prioritize personal and social life. It sounds hard but it's not impossible: you don't have to do all that crazy shit that is expected.
I have to seriously ask, why did you do four postdocs? I'm doing one and I'm sure it is this one and afterwards if I don't have a permanent position, I'm leaving academia.
The first one was a fail. Left early because of toxic PI. But then, I just had really great opportunities and no permanent position yet, so I kept going. I really enjoyed my postdocs: I lived in super nice places and traveled all over the world to collect data in beautiful ecosystems and I collaborated with great people! I also really love science and my research field, didn't want to settle down, so why not continue? It was all that I wanted at that time.
During the fourth one, however, I was done with it, and then I got a permanent position at the place where I really wanted to be. If I wouldn't have landed that job, I would have left academia.
I am not discrediting anyone's experience, but here's mine:
In my postdoc at US R1 university in an engineering department (2017-2021): I received a wage where I comfortably lived in my area (52-55K/year), retirement benefits, 40-50h work week, ~2 weeks vacation/year, with expectations to publish that I thought were manageable and good for my career.
I am currently an Assistant Professor at an R1 university at an earth science department and I employ a postdoc with the same conditions but at 61K/year. We're working on getting her whatever job she wants to pursue next.
There's many toxic PIs and labs out there and OP was clearly at one. Not everyone is like that. Ask a lot of questions before joining a lab and make sure the culture matches your lifestyle.
I agree with you, but only partially. I had a tough but in the end positive experience during my PhD, for example. My supervisor was very supportive, and I learned a lot from him, I also had a pretty healthy work-life balance, went on vacations, I got two scholarships and earned pretty good money (but I was single at a time). And I am not a super-talented person, I worked hard and more or less effectively. Not all academic experiences are that bad.. you just need to be selective, choose your supervisor, university and topic really carefully and wisely, probably try to seek more funding by doing TA, for instance. But still, I would agree with you that on average postdoc salaries are really low for highly educated specialists like us and I understand that it would be really hard if you have a family you need to support...
Alas, we all know this but somehow we deceived ourselves as if we are special. I now accept the reality and finally trying to move to the industry. Lifesciencd needs fewer labs fewer PhDs.
Wow. That's radically different from my postdoc experience in Canada. I make a very good salary (higher than I made as a clinician in healthcare), a super supportive mentor, mostly work from home on my own hours (so if I feel ill or tired one day, I can take a break and make-up on the work on an evening or weekend when I'm feeling more up to it), I'm considered an employee so have benefits, a pension, etc., one full month vacation per year, co-PI on a grant that was easy to obtain, doing work I really enjoy and am interested in, get wonderful mentoring from my supervisor, manage my own project, work with terrific graduate and undergraduate students, and absolutely love what I'm doing!
Publishing is the only difficult thing, mainly because most journals are having a hard time finding reviewers, but otherwise, none of what you said applies to my postdoc.
Maybe you are just in a toxic university/lab.
That’s great, I’m happy to hear that some Canadian institutions are making moves to retain postdocs with the incentives you mentioned! I feel like Toronto has some catching up to do though..
You're right. A PhD has such a high opportunity cost it's hard to justify. Now in some fields you need a 1-2 year 'pre-doc' for decent programs, typically 6 years for PhD, and maybe a 2-3 year post-doc (if you fail to place in academia). That's a total of 9-11 years of poverty wages, which could easily be $1 million if you would have had a decent salary (went in to tech of consulting after undergrad).
Preach You’ve hit on it exactly. I feel like too many academics dismiss too hastily the costs of doing a postdoc and the prolonged academic career track on lifetime earnings and savings. Waiting another 2-6 years into your mid to late 30s can make it that much more difficult to catch up and to be on track to retire
What are a person's expectations during a pre-doc? Do they get paid as an intern? WTF.
My postbac/predoc was $28k which was common at the time in psych/neuro
i worked as a research tech for a year between undergrad and grad school and made a cool $13k working 60-80 hours a week. i had two side jobs as well so i could afford to pay my super low rent in a shared house and buy all my groceries from aldi. i walked home from work which was an hour most days because i was too poor to take the bus twice a day. the pi found a loophole to hire me as a temp worker for beyond what would normally be allowed so he didn’t have to give me benefits. if i’d had benefits i would have had free public transportation which would have made a huge difference to me. i never ever want to work that hard and to be that poor ever again. i’m about to finish my phd and i’m leaving academia.
Are these pretty common in life sciences? I haven't seen these in quantum computing unless I have been living under a rock after I entered grad school.
I don’t know about all fields but in psych and cognitive neuro and social neuro they’re super common. It’s getting to the point they’re almost a requirement to be competitive I’ve heard about them in Econ too. Not sure about all other fields Given I decided to leave academia after my PhD, I regret doing the postbac. Waste of some of my best years to invest for retirement
And then when you get to grad school, the imposter syndrome can kick in when you see that others came in with a Master’s degree instead. *sigh*
Your wage for a full time job was $28k??
The main expectation is to get a recommendation from a top researcher
From my experience (in life sciences) it was basically a research lab technician/assistant role with a 1 to 2-year commitment and minimum wage but with 1 ✨ free ✨ graduate level class a semester as a benefit. Very easy to get exploited though via the thought of a weak letter of reference from PIs. The pre-docs work their tail off to put their PhD program application package together, taking GREs &/or coursework, applying to programs, traveling for potential interviews, etc etc while maintaining your own project(s) & supporting the lab’s projects and management duties as well while hoping to get admitted to 1 PhD program at the very least.
This is why I declined all my postdoc offers and went into industry. I evaluated all the pros and cons and it’s hard to dismiss the overwhelming imbalance of cons relative to pros, especially in the context of other careers, unless you’re incredibly dedicated to an academic career, have a financial safety net (wealthy parents) or have no other options (immigrated, visa). The compensation, benefits and moving for a temporary job with often times little to no financial assistance is absolutely insane, especially given that it provides you with no assurance that it will provide you with a TT role in academia. Too shitty of a job with too negative of an impact on your life with too few benefits and positive outcomes, incredibly high risk I agree it’s a scam and I’m surprised so many in this thread defend it: no other career pursuit asks you to do a 2-4 year temporary job in another state or continent often times in bumfuck nowhere at a low salary for the possibility of maybe getting an opportunity at an okay paying job after, but probably not. The proposition is nuts when you break it down
I tell you one thing, post docs are great for “pivoting” into a higher paying career field. I went from purely applied stats to an AI & Big Data post doc at a top 5 university for around 3 years, and my salary prospects in industry improved by a whole lot. I think this is the only possible escenario where a post doc is a good idea. Also people defending post docs are probably professors
That’s an interesting counterpoint and example thanks for sharing
This is why postdocs should be unionized. My experience is very different from the one you describe. I think the only statement that feels true is the expectation to publish a CNS paper in two years lol.
I’m fortunate to be in a union, I have had a great experience with my postdoc so far.
Agreed
Totally agree. In US, this is good only for immigrants because they want to stay here. Most of smart and toxic PI just hire J1- visa postdocs because they can use them 200% without respect.
My theory is that as the incentives are so utterly shit for an academic career, it will basically be only a career track for folks from a wealthy family pursue because they have a financial safety net and the low income doesn’t matter and immigrants pursue because it provides opportunity, with the exception of some people pursuing it despite the poor incentives Otherwise, the incentives in the US are utter trash and people will be (already are) increasingly motivated to pursue alternative career paths
It's not that we want to stay there, in fact I believe the J1 -> green card track is non-trivial. US postdocs offer good pay relative to other countries. For example, in France, my net salary would be about $2200. In the US, it is a little over $5500 even after health insurance. Cost of living is higher, but it doesn't close the gap. There's very few countries in the world that would match that US pay. Maybe Switzerland and a couple other European countries, the Gulf countries, perhaps the financial and industrial centres in S-E Asia (even then, I'm not sure). There are some financial advantages in France and other countries with strong social nets, though, but postdocs are usually too healthy, young and childless to benefit from them. For instance, taxes include your contributions to the State pension, so people don't really invest in funds out of their net like you do in the US. The net is for groceries, rent, and leisure. Similarly, there's things you pay out of pocket that we mostly don't in Europe, or much less, like kindergarten or medical expenses. But again, young, healthy and childless. Another aspect is the networking. From within a given country, you can more easily build a network with people from that same country. It's much harder to do as someone working on a different continent. The US is pretty central in worldwide academia, concentrating many of the most prestigious universities, conferences, etc. So as a foreigner, it's always a desirable thing to build a network with US academics and industry. So in summary, if you want to pursue research, and your origin country's academic culture demands postdocs, there's hardly a better place to do that than in the US. As for treating people without respect, I'm sure that happens a lot, the situation is ripe for it. But I think if you're backed by your PhD advisor or previous employer, that should limit the damage, as the host PI's reputation with their colleagues becomes engaged. By the way, wouldn't the same thing happen for H1-B visas?
In my field, most citizens just go to the industry or government jobs directly. The international scholars were the ones stuck in the postdoc loop due to visas.
UK here, this has not been my postdoc experience at all
Same in Ireland
Same in Norway/Sweden
Same in Canada.
This sub really needs a location and discipline flair
Same for mine in both USA (California) & Australia 🤷♀️ It’s totally PI dependent. Maybe don’t go to labs who want to publish nature papers in 2 yrs?
US work culture hits different.
I was a postdoc in the US and this was not my experience at all. I am now an assistant professor with a postdoc in my lab and none of these things hold either.
Thanks for sharing and destroying this toxic culture. I'm also interested in doing a postdoc there (probably not because it's too far away).
Can you advice on how to leave postdoc and get promoted to assistant or instructor I like to get the lowest possible grant to just be independent I can't find a way to get out of postdoc stuck loop my research is not bad reached to 600 sth citations in total but noone funds my ideas lol
I’m in the USA and pretty much agree they are scammy but also don’t identify with all of theses points
I understand that not all of OP's points are universal to others' experiences, but how do you and others in this reply not identify with the limitations on finances and family planning? Do you have a well-paid spouse? My wife and I are both in academia -- I just defended my PhD, and she's a research technician -- and it's completely financially unsustainable to stay the course with our one young child, let alone two. The pay is a legitimate barrier to achieving the personal life we want.
postdoc salaries in Austria are pretty high; in Vienna it's almost 5k a month which is far above the median wage, and pretty competitive with regular jobs (at least in the humanities and social sciences). the insecurity is another thing though, that's just as bad here. you never know if you'll get another job in the same city or have to move after a year or two.
Same in USA. It must really vary by field and location and group. My postdoc has had basically total flexibility (not lab-based)
I worked in the NL, Germany and Sweden during my PhD and postdoc years. This was my experience, it was totally a scam. Perhaps those who are not experiencing that are somewhat lucky but majority of postdocs are experiencing what OP says. Europe is no different from the US, everything depends on your boss, field and lab culture
same in NL
Nothing new here. People who need visas and immigration pathways will come and do it anyway. Postdoc is now an immigration program instead of a training program.
Yup, I was one of them but left for eventually left for a tt job. Some of my peers have been doing it for over 15 years, they eventually became staff scientist but they’re still on yearly contract making postdoc salary.
100% this.
so true. immigrant postdoc here
Yeah visa and immigration... Agreed!
Agreed! I am on my way out and the delusional people staying in can keep it. Don't forget all the stupid "training" from our well paid administration gods too!!
Postdoc experiences are totally PI dependent and this is why it’s important to talk to previous lab members when interviewing. Salaries are increasing with NIH min at 60k. PI salaries for R1 institutions are around $100k+ starting which isn’t bad.
This is very important. The NIH pay increase is making it very difficult for settings with different funding lines to continue to find anyone willing to take the 30-40k they're offering. I think potential postdocs are starting to realize the 'we can't offer raises' and 'there's no more money' lines were always bs. They do have money, they're just refusing to offer it.
Postdoc 60k in US, even in LCOL city for a family of 4 is pretty bad.
I have no idea why this is being downvoted. It is at or below the US median income for a family of 4 after over 10 years of education and training. Its absolutely less than you should be earning ideally as a person in their 30s with a lot of time sunk into education
A few reasons-most households in the US now have 2 working parents. For many areas of the US except the coast this is a totally livable wage.
R1 Universities are almost always in big cities, MCOL or higher. Sure if you live in BumFuck Alabama, 60k is enough but chances are you going to live a big city which all of them have became pretty expensive in the last 5 years
I do agree that postdocs should be paid more than 60K, but it's also an early career position. It's really only the second step in the academic career ladder. Compared to career stages in other jobs, is it common for people to have two kids when just beginning?
I mean this is why it’s a scam. Convincing people they’re still a trainee and this is an early career role is part of the deceit and the scam— You’re in your mid 30s and shouldn’t be considered early career or a trainee after a decade of education and being halfway to being dead of old age!
Career stages do not always track age and it varies by field. As an example, I have an early career colleague at a lab in her 50s, and I became an Assistant Professor at 31. We're both early career scholars. IMO no one is scamming you, but academia is not a traditional career and the reward structures are different (and obviously not for everyone).
Is not comparable to a “second step” in industry. Most Post docs are in their 30’s.
But if industry is the goal then they shouldn't be doing a postdoc in the first place. They don't need it. Industry jobs are very different, there's different expectations, different daily tasks, and of course different pay. Doubling my salary would still not make me get an industry job, because it's very different from my academic job which I enjoy.
I am in industry, my job pays 4x(260k vs 60k as post doc) what I was doing as a postdoc. The work is almost the same, I just have more meetings.
It's a different job and career trajectory, that's what I am saying. It might be almost the same as a postdoc, who's just a scientist/researcher, but not as a professor (the better part of an academic career), who is not just a scientist. These are very different careers and the comparison of compensation is silly. No one has ever made an argument for academia as a well-compensated job, that's not why we choose it. Edited to add: I could be making five times my current salary if I went into finance straight out of my Math bachelors, but it's a moot point. People choose careers for different reasons.
So now we are at "postdocs shouldn't have 2 kids"?? Damn!! Are postdoc allowed to have "life"?
I never used the terms "should" or "allowed". People can do whatever they want. But it does raise the question of life goals and career expectations. Similarly, if someone wants to have a family of 4 at 25, then I'd say that doing a PhD might not be the wisest choice financially either.
This is such a strange comparison. I finished my PhD and entered the "first step" of the industry career ladder making 90k. So, to answer your question: no, it's not comparable.
I think the "common" comparison of $ to years in a job is silly and pointless, because academic job stages are different from most jobs. I think most people in this thread comparing how much they make at each age or X years after PhD are completely missing the point of an academic job. The comparison to how much money one makes between industry and academia is a silly comparison in general; I don't think I've ever met an academic who does it for the money. If money is a big motivator for someone then they shouldn't be in academia and certainly not be doing a postdoc.
i think your comparison of "do people at similar career stages in other jobs often have children" is sillier and more pointless. i'm pointing out that people at similar career stages in other post-PhD jobs *usually can afford children*. They may or may not for various reasons. Howevever, I think actually yes there are many people at post-doc equivalent career stages outside of academia that have children, i just don't know if there is data on this. it's also worth noting that you are responding to a post specifically discussing financial barriers to having children as a post-doc.
There are non academic postdocs and ones that don't follow the NIH minimum. Some postdocs start over $100k.
Where?!
National labs. Los Alamos and Livermore both start their postdocs at $96k.
Interesting!
Join a union. I am a full employee with 403b and 8% matching for retirement (the most I’ve gotten from industry was 5% matching), subsidized health/dental/vision, and I mostly WFH except for meetings or department seminars / social events. My advisor doesn’t care when or how much PTO I take, as long as the work gets done. I rarely work weekends or the long hours I did as a PhD. I treat it like a normal job, because it is IMO. The take home pay isn’t great compared to what I could make in industry, but most tech companies have an equally toxic work-life culture as academia. And the job market sucks right now.
This is especially true in biological sciences. I am a biophysicist, and made something like 2/3 the salary of my peers in condensed matter as a postdoc due to being on an NIH grant versus a Physics NSF grant. I think this has gotten better, but I am still bitter. Worked out ok for me, since I did one three year postdoc and then got a tenure track job at a regional public university. I could do that because of industry pulling a significant number of Physics graduate students into non-academic positions. If you don't have a good paying reservoir of industry jobs, then academia is a Ponzi scheme. Each research group graduates 10s to 100s of replacements for the PI over their academic lifetime.
I see your point, but what is the alternative? Presumably one did PhD because they love research, but they won’t get a job without post doc! Otherwise, the argument should become don’t do a PhD.
Are you referring to academia or industry? Because postdocs are definitely not very valued or important for non academic roles My sassy answer would be if the incentives are shit and postdocs are a scam and it’s part of the academic trajectory, say fuck you to academia, and say I deserve better
But you can get a job without postdoc. You don't need a postdoc for job.
If that were true, no one would do a post doc. The number of jobs is very less compared to number of phds. And the employer would prefer people with post doc, which he already has available, so why would he choose a phd without post doc.
Non academic roles generally do not care about postdocs
That’s like saying avoid a PhD, just Master’s is sufficient for many jobs.
lol funnily enough, you anticipated my thoughts. I think if you’re trying to secure a stable financial future and prepare for retirement and provide for your family, and if you’re coming from a lower SES family and want to lift your family up the economic ladder, a more direct path to securing your finances is often not (not always not!) doing a PhD. But you can do a PhD if you feel that intellectual fulfillment and the pursuit of a PhD is weighted as a larger priority for you. People should just be aware it’s usually not the best path towards being financially stable
Which is smart. PhD has been a curse on me tbh.
A master's isn't sufficient for many jobs though... a PhD is...
The number of people doing postdocs does seem to be declining though... it's gone down more than 10% in 2 YEARS, isn't that crazy? [https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-01038-z#:\~:text=According%20to%20the%20latest%20data,2022%2C%20from%2021%2C902%20to%2019%2C585](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-01038-z#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20latest%20data,2022%2C%20from%2021%2C902%20to%2019%2C585) And that's not even distinguishing US citizens from non-US citizens... in my experience, the # of US citizens starting post-docs has gone down a lot in the five years I've been at a T20 uni. More and more companies and alt careers are no longer requiring post doc experience.
Actually, depending on the career path, some companies would prefer a fresh PhD than someone with postdoc experience. PhDs are already too expensive salary-wise, additional experience equals more $$$$ that has to be paid out. Plus in some cases, doing a postdoc implies that someone is on the academic path. Sometimes switching gives the impression that they’re coming to industry bc they couldn’t cut it in academia. Final point, transitioning to industry requires way more than discipline-specific knowledge. Applicants need to demonstrate various transferable skills like leadership, team-work, communication, service, etc. grad schools career development do a better job of prepping grad students to develop these skills than postdoc specific career development. I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but fresh PhDs typically look more attractive than those with postdoc experience. Though there are other nuanced points that are exceptions, fresh PhDs should feel obligated to do a postdoc to get a job in industry. Instead, they should focus their efforts in the last year of their PhD networking, applying for industry internships/fellowships. That would give a greater edge than postdoc experience.
I’m on the job market right now and it is virtually impossible to get a job right out of grad school (my field is life sciences, industry is biotech/pharma). Recent layoffs have meant that the market is saturated with people looking for jobs with industry experience, which is always going to be preferable for companies over a fresh grad. Doing a postdoc is basically the only way to be competitive right now for an industry job.
I got 3 jobs offers in the last 3 months. Same field, but I do AI/ML
There are few good reasons to go to grad school/postdoc etc until you’ve already developed a financial foundation. It can be a financially ruinous decision. I almost never recommend a student to go straight into a PhD program.
All of them are true. In addition you are baited to believe you need to secure your own salary by earning a scholarship. Most of the PIs make you believe it is a great thing to have the fellowships (MSCA, EMBO etc) which is bullshit. A professional at the age of 30, living on a scholarship or writing for months to earn that minimum wage or average salary, that is totally pathetic. There is nothing good about that, you are a free labor! I can't believe how many PhD students fall for that cause there is a competition going on, I think people in academia are really motivated by toxic things
Can’t agree more with this post . I am an immigrant stuck in postdoc and we don’t have an option as we are on visa and for getting into industry is less likely to get in as industry rarely sponsor visa . For getting greencard it takes years , so we have to do postdoc no matter what and it’s tough with family as an non immigrant :(
Yeah... most citizens have no idea of the pain and limitations immigration comes with.
I agree with many things you said. But I would say Pdoc is still worth it for people who are really interested in or love the research field they are in, so much that they are willing to take those risks. Another thing really important is that you will need some saving or external financial support (parents, partners, investment whatever) to get you through it, until you get a tenure track or eventually leave academia. That's how I am able to hang on for a few years.
That is one of the benefits of being a Ph.D holder from a developing country. Any postdoc is a win, economic and portfolio. My current postdoc salary 20x of a faculty in my country. Even my Ph.D salary was 10x of a faculty in my country. It looks good on my profile as well, opening up a much better opportunity. I will never aim USA to do postdoc or faculty member.
Most can't avoid it. When you're in a scientist market with people recruiting only experienced PhDs, then you have no choice. Only very few fresh PhDs can get into the industry nowadays. As for the salary, it really depends on your situation. Obviously, having a family of 2 children is a big fat NO.
This isn’t true. The majority of life sciences phds do not go into postdocs now. There are a huge number of jobs in consulting, patent work, government and industry.
I'm talking about scientists roles.
I have had a very different experience, I currently make 58K which isn't fantastic but far from wage slavery. I have the opportunity to become a PI if I want to, but may go into industry depending on where I could get an offer. My PI is great. I am a university employee and have a retirement account with matched contributions from the university so it currently has about 18K in it. I don't work weekends and work from home on Fridays.
That’s what I made as a postdoc in 2007-8 :/
Buddy!! Hate to break your bubble, 58k after a PhD, is NOT a good salary. Daycare costs close to $20-30k in US for a year, rent will be somewhere $10-25k, health insurance $3-5k. Will you eat, travel, have a car, make some savings?? 58k is a bad salary. Academia people live in weird self-hate and inferiority complex, say it with me, 58k is not a good salary, nowhere close to it. Most STEM Bachelors will make more than $58k. Many jobs that don't require 10yr degrees, make way above 58k.
I get health insurance from work, and as I said I do have retirement savings. The average pay for a masters in computer science is only 68K. I could maybe expect to make 10K more if I personally moved into industry since I don’t have the same skills as the average cs masters student. I live very comfortably in a low cost of living area. I am 28, I don’t have kids. If you’re in your mid 30s with kids I can understand being upset but in that case it probably wasn’t a good idea for you to get a PhD.
You are European.
This is in the US, Pennsylvania
The average pay for CS with a master degree is not 68k in any part of the US
Post-doc is good for moving to a new country. If you want to move to the US after your PhD, there aren't any easy options besides a post-doc. Other than that, yeah. they are not very useful, especially if you intend to move to industry as most engineering PhDs want to do.
I solely used it as a buffer period to get a faculty job. I brought in my own money for my first 2 post doc years, and I had a super hands off PI, so I was able to get away with low output. I was fortunate enough to get a fac job during my second year, so then it's like, well my PI isn't gonna terminate my contract now regardless of my output. Although only time will tell whether that choice screwed me over as far as future grants go.... But yes, salary and treatment are a nightmare. I just lucked out with a crazily hands off PI who's busy with other, needier students in the lab, so hours and 'vacation' time are completely up to me (within reason). I think it's only worth it if you're confident you can get a job you'd be happy with in 2-4 years. Use the first 1 or 2 years as calibrating that possibility
I'm a recent postdoc (<1 year) in the life sciences (neuroscience) living with a family (spouse [working full time], 2-3 kids) being paid near NIH minimum recommendation (55-60K) in a large metropolitan US city at an R1 institution (postdoc fellow, employee, full benefits). I make enough to meet my family needs and beyond for the first time in 6 years and have no issue with my work/life balance (30-40 hrs per week, vacation days). I also have excellent support from my peers and mentor, which make a huge impact on navigating my career. I understand hardships, especially in academic research, but feel compelled to say that, while far from ideal, academic postdocs provide a means to meet a typical middle-income life. There are tons of factors (debt, living costs, lab environment, PI, etc.) that influence how feasible this is, but I want reiterate for other young scientists that it is not all soul-crushing difficulty on the other side of things. My postdoc experience is leagues better than my graduate school struggle, but again, academic improvements are absolutely necessary so that experiences like OPs are no longer acceptable and those like my own are the norm.
If you don't want to do a postdoc, but got stuck in one because of the terrible job market (Again, USA. Late 2023-2024 massive tech and biopharma layoffs) what's the way out? I'm still trying to find one. I hope they dont think I WANT to stay in Academia!
From my POV, conditions aren't that bad but could be better. We're currently working on it, mostly at a university level, but we are updated regarding the efforts of other universities as well. I see a lot of people complaining, but not many actually doing something. Does it take more of your already meagre free time? It does, but we're talking about our livelihoods and our futures! Talk to other postdocs, get together, collect data, talk to the university, and unionise if you have to. If you're not happy, DO SOMETHING, don't just stand there being miserable and spread thin because "if I suck it up for x years, it will get better"
This comment is a bit insensitive? Most postdocs in the US are international, taking part in some of these activities might not be possible due to fear. Also unionization is not a luxury in a lot of states in the US.
I partly agree. I'm from Europe, did postdocs in the US and in France in the life sciences. In the US, salaries were OK, but I earned the same in Nebraska as in Miami and to live in the latter, it wasn't nearly enough to cover costs of living, so I left. I'm not a volunteer. Also, the work-life balance in the US can be insane but I just kept my own pace. I never work on weekends or evenings, I don't do lunch at my desk and I take all my vacation time. My PI did and she's a nasty lady with no personal life, so not my role model. In France, salaries were low but work-life balance much better: more social life, much paid time off (that most people actually take), and of course, good benefits. In my four postdocs, I had one toxic PI and I left as soon as possible. I'm not dealing with that shit. After that, all my PI's were wonderful and I'm still close friends with all of them! So, my conclusion would be: postdoc life can be really hard but I've also really enjoyed it. I traveled a lot, met wonderful people, did good research and I'm now a pi at a really good uni. You have to take life in your own hands: bad PI >> leave; don't work more than you get paid for (systematically); take your time off, and prioritize personal and social life. It sounds hard but it's not impossible: you don't have to do all that crazy shit that is expected.
I have to seriously ask, why did you do four postdocs? I'm doing one and I'm sure it is this one and afterwards if I don't have a permanent position, I'm leaving academia.
The first one was a fail. Left early because of toxic PI. But then, I just had really great opportunities and no permanent position yet, so I kept going. I really enjoyed my postdocs: I lived in super nice places and traveled all over the world to collect data in beautiful ecosystems and I collaborated with great people! I also really love science and my research field, didn't want to settle down, so why not continue? It was all that I wanted at that time. During the fourth one, however, I was done with it, and then I got a permanent position at the place where I really wanted to be. If I wouldn't have landed that job, I would have left academia.
I am not discrediting anyone's experience, but here's mine: In my postdoc at US R1 university in an engineering department (2017-2021): I received a wage where I comfortably lived in my area (52-55K/year), retirement benefits, 40-50h work week, ~2 weeks vacation/year, with expectations to publish that I thought were manageable and good for my career. I am currently an Assistant Professor at an R1 university at an earth science department and I employ a postdoc with the same conditions but at 61K/year. We're working on getting her whatever job she wants to pursue next. There's many toxic PIs and labs out there and OP was clearly at one. Not everyone is like that. Ask a lot of questions before joining a lab and make sure the culture matches your lifestyle.
Is this including the industry post doc saying that is also a scam?
How does everyone on here get the worst PI’s imaginable? I agree with you on wages, benefits, and possibly long working hours, though.
I agree with you, but only partially. I had a tough but in the end positive experience during my PhD, for example. My supervisor was very supportive, and I learned a lot from him, I also had a pretty healthy work-life balance, went on vacations, I got two scholarships and earned pretty good money (but I was single at a time). And I am not a super-talented person, I worked hard and more or less effectively. Not all academic experiences are that bad.. you just need to be selective, choose your supervisor, university and topic really carefully and wisely, probably try to seek more funding by doing TA, for instance. But still, I would agree with you that on average postdoc salaries are really low for highly educated specialists like us and I understand that it would be really hard if you have a family you need to support...
Alas, we all know this but somehow we deceived ourselves as if we are special. I now accept the reality and finally trying to move to the industry. Lifesciencd needs fewer labs fewer PhDs.
Wow. That's radically different from my postdoc experience in Canada. I make a very good salary (higher than I made as a clinician in healthcare), a super supportive mentor, mostly work from home on my own hours (so if I feel ill or tired one day, I can take a break and make-up on the work on an evening or weekend when I'm feeling more up to it), I'm considered an employee so have benefits, a pension, etc., one full month vacation per year, co-PI on a grant that was easy to obtain, doing work I really enjoy and am interested in, get wonderful mentoring from my supervisor, manage my own project, work with terrific graduate and undergraduate students, and absolutely love what I'm doing! Publishing is the only difficult thing, mainly because most journals are having a hard time finding reviewers, but otherwise, none of what you said applies to my postdoc. Maybe you are just in a toxic university/lab.
Where in Canada? Toronto?
Not Toronto/GTA but Southwestern Ontario.
That’s great, I’m happy to hear that some Canadian institutions are making moves to retain postdocs with the incentives you mentioned! I feel like Toronto has some catching up to do though..