UK refers to England, Scotland, Wales, and N Ireland. If you are including the republic of Ireland then sure British isles would be more correct. As for UK being wrong it isn't and that is all I was saying regarding the issue with religion tension.
As an aside, the term British Isles is controversial in itself. There's a push for British and Irish isles or the North Atlantic Archipelago as an alternative.
Don't say that to the Irish! Neither Ireland, nor I believe the UK, recognises the British Isles as a geographical or legal term, and the Irish would generally say that it is not the correct term at all. In treaties about this matter, both the Irish and the UK governments simply use "these islands".
At the time, it was all within the UK, I believe, so you could say something like "the UK at the time".
[would rather revisit alan kay](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2LZLYcu_JY)
as for the dev environment stuff, take a look into lisp, lisp machines, and smalltalk. there's a lot of similar *really* integrated dev environments that have existed in the past that don't rely on things like "the entire system is one global address space with cooperative multitasking", and that didn't have their development driven by mental illness.
i like that terry inspires people to take an outside-the-box approach to programming, and that he's inspired people to look at coding in a different light, but his systems really only seem cutting edge if he's your first or only exposure to dev stuff that isn't "mainstream", for lack of a better word.
> don't rely on things like "the entire system is one global address space with cooperative multitasking"
[If you can guarantee that there are no illegal accesses then you could eliminate a bit of overhead.](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/36992702/what-is-the-performance-impact-of-virtual-memory-relative-to-direct-mapped-memor)
> That being said his love of simple solutions, and disregard for conventions is exactly what programming needs right now
This I can 100% agree with, a lot of modern dev is such a pile of duct tape and glue and half the time writing a web app feels like trying to shut an overfull suitcase.
There's definitely a reason we don't use TempleOS or things even remotely like that for production systems. That said, I think especially nowadays there's a certain amount of nostalgia (if that's even the right word, most of it seems to be coming from people who never even touched a 16-bit DOS computer) for programming in real-mode operating systems and things of that nature, because it's so different from everything we work with day to day.
In every creative medium you need artists, people that go and do crazy^1 out there unique stuff. You don't get a useful complete thing, but an exploration and interesting thing that can then inspire improvements on bigger more complete and crazy stuff. This is true in programming. You need esoteric programming languages to explore ideas that are then explored and grown by small languages, which then inspire things that the mainstream languages use. You need this in software. I wish more people did crazy experimental OSes. Maybe the thing is that we need a good framework, LLVM opened the world to smaller experimental compiled languages, maybe something similar can be done for OSes?
^1 By crazy I am not making a reference to Terry, but just exploring ideas that have little backing or high risk, that would be too much to try on a serious program. Terry had a lot of talent as a programmer, sad his condition limited what he could do, but also he had the time and resources to explore this ideas.
Not that you don't have a point - because you do.
But I think those "goals of perfection" came later when Terry's illness advanced.
I remember reading some docs about how he thought the Commodore 64 was a great machine, and he wanted to created a "C64-like" OS for X86. The Commodore 64 was very hackable as well; so it makes sense that TempleOS was so as well.
Anyone would be out of their mind (no disrespect to Terry) to use this in a production environment. But for what it is, it is very, very cool.
> It is an impressive amount of work, in the same way that it would be impressive if someone painted their house with a mascara brush.
just so you know, I will be stealing this ;)
Again the point was never to have a usable OS, the point was creating for creations same, and to explore that. It's not an OS meant to be used, it's a piece of art to inspire ideas.
Again the point of art is the creation for the sake of creation. Terry considered that his inspiration was the word of God himself.
You shouldn't look at temple OS and think: this is how an OS should be built. But you could look at something and think "that's an interesting idea", explore the idea to form it into something more practical. After a while it can evolve into a feature or way of looking into software. Overall though, it's incomplete, and shows that building a solid OS is far too much for a single person to do. But build something that is functional (if not that useful) and explore some ideas is possible.
Terry was adding networking to templeOS in his final days, he wasn't done w/ the project. I found a video last night where he talked about adding networking days before he died. He had a lot more to add to the OS.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8GTB7yy774](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8GTB7yy774)
> There are some bits of it that I like. I like that assets are visible directly in the terminal and source code; more of that please. It is also cool that the entire OS can debug itself by dropping into breakpoints live, and re-jitting any edited code.
Don’t know about the first, but pretty sure the second was a feature in lisp machines and smalltalk systems if the 80s.
The problem is that most of those ideas fall apart when scaling up. Either by being too expensive compute wise for bigger systems or just a horrible, massive security problem.
Also you could say *arguably* the idea of just editing code of running app in flight is basically what Emacs does but at OS scale
It's a little bit like OneNote when you use it. However it all uses his own internal documentation language. That's kind of the downside here. It all seems to work seamlessly because he has his own editor and shell that understands this internal language.
The problem is that the development world has always found that pure text streams are, by far, the most useful. Not document formats.
TempleOS doesn't really have anything new that wasn't already explored in language-based OSes and proper hypertext systems. As far as I recall, only source code in documents instead of plaintext is innovative, but that is deprecated by structural editing and/or image-based development.
The problem I have with TempleOS is that while it may be quite condensed code, it's _extremely_ inefficient. The performance bloat is far beyond anyone has ever seen on PC systems ever. It makes me lose a lot of the amazement that I have for the system when you need to run the OS on a modern 2000$ PC just to get it to play a 1980ish game at like 20 FPS.
Part of that problem is probably due to having to run the OS only on a virtual machine, which is another problem that I have with it. Granted, there are reasons for it, since as far as I know it's absurdly annoying and/or difficult to deal with modern hardware tech at the base level, and would probably bloat the code up like crazy.
Yeah I hate the ineffiency of webapp style applications.
Although they do have the advantage of being cross-platform at least, but it's like making a deal with the devil.
> it's extremely inefficient.
You can see the CPU usage in the top right corner during his videos. 99% of the time he has 7 out of 8 cores at 1%. I presume they never report 0.
The remaining core is usually 5% to 30%.
He ran it on an 8 core machine because he could. Not because he needed to.
I presume you meant to say "just because it doesn't use the GPU doesn't mean that it's inefficiently using the CPU". I'd reply with "even though it isn't using the GPU, it's _STILL_ inefficiently using the CPU."
Although I suppose much of it might just be in the design of the games/software itself, not the OS.
At the least, _whatever_ is resulting in the poor performance (even if it was just not using the GPU), that in itself is still a problem.
Terry inspired me in so many ways, and not a day goes by that I don't think about him.
His own mind slowly turned against him, but he still kept at it, working on his passion project even as reality itself crumbled around him.
RIP.
Hey, /u/SerenityOS, you might like hear this: I was reading your last update to /r/programming and had the thought "this guy is like our next TempleOS". My next thought was "I'm glad our next Terry is a guy who makes friendly replies to most comments". We can't blame Terry for his problems -- he didn't choose his brain -- but it's nice to have a positive person doing the "make my own OS from scratch" project.
You might be surprised as to the number of people who don't follow your work closely or respond to your posts, but are still happy to have you here and are cheering for you, if not out loud.
Hey fresh\_account2222, thanks for the thoughtful comment. I'm certainly not looking to replace Terry or TempleOS, but I'm happy to hear that my work resonates with people, and also with those who don't interact with it/me as much :)
I love you, and I hope you're doing well. This whole Terry situation makes me think I'm gonna start trying and bring nicer, so here's step one.
I hope you're having a great day, keep at what you're doing and you'll get it done.
I'm not sure what lesson is to be learned. It's not like he was a totally neurotypical guy driven mad by pure dedication to programming or overwork; he had schizophrenia.
To me, it's the lesson that a lot of people can become like him. Schizophrenia or not. Especially in computer programming where there is some weird effect of working with computers where social behavior norms take a toll.
There is no "weird effect"... people who have most of their time consumed by something that doesn't involve social interaction is going to inevitably take time away from improving on social interaction. Then you have the other side of it where people who are socially awkward and/or sometimes on the spectrum are obsessed with computers since they likely don't like social interaction in the first place.
You're right--schizophrenia can be developed (for example early-life cannabis use can worsen the long-term symptoms in some people), and it may not have even onset otherwise. In other areas of the world, diseases similar to schizophrenia are solved in a social manner and these people can actually get better. In fact, schizophrenia doesn't really have any clear diagnostic symptoms, most of psychological diseases have co-morbidism. Depression leads to isolation, which can lead to schizophrenia in those who are disposed to it, and the ones who complain about it are often the ones who don't get better, for whatever reason.
These pre-graduate (armchair) psychologists are all idiots, so don't worry about them.
Yes? That's well within the bounds of what schizophrenia can do - impulsiveness, paranoia, and aggressiveness are common symptoms. If he was functioning normally it's entirely possible he might have just been a regular person with average level of fear of the other.
Possibly, it well could do that, possibly even without any pre-existing racism.
I know a schizophrenic who despite medication, has a lot of completely irrational beliefs. That their family members won't let them work a job, that they became completely incapable of e.g. cutting bread and had to purchase really expensive knives they now wont even use, that they cannot draw because paper and pencils are expensive and printer toner even more - and wont understand they're spending way more on food that only spoils, or that they don't need toner to draw.
And this is a medicated schizophrenic.
That's a theologically complicated topic - whether someone with diminished faculties is judged that strictly. And that's assuming God doesn't agree with the tirades.
> I don't know if it actually made any difference to our field.
And that devalues his contributions how, exactly? I'm 100% sure you've made even less of a difference than him, so go glow elsewhere.
I mean, I've skimmed through the old testament. God does a whole lot of slavery-endorsing, torturing, mass murder, and so on.
Quite literally Satan is the better guy of the two, whose main sin was disagreeing with God.
>"I'm the smartest programmer that has ever lived!"
Almost had me convinced until he used `i++` instead of `++i`. smh
On a serious note: What happened to this man was a real tragedy.
> Almost had me convinced until he used i++ instead of ++i. smh
It's HolyC, though: they're identical.
None of the FBI Illuminati pre/post-increment nonsense to be found in God's language.
They're actually probably not. I was just having some fun.
The post I responded to was complaining about post/pre-increment, though, which in C is always the same performance-wise, whereas in C++ can be very meaningful, since the post-increment creates a copy.
Looks like Terry Davis is going to become famous now that he is not around to cause too much embarrassment to anyone who chooses to draw attention to him.
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Wow. That really was a rabbit hole. I'm confused, but also strangely moved.
Wow. I never realized that little-endian/big-endian byte order comes from Gulliver's travels.
Which in turn was a parody of Catholic/Protestant religious differences in the UK.
In Ireland! 😡 That’s *our* sectarian bigotry
Damn Irish! They ruined Ireland.
Pretty sure the Irish and the English were blowing each other up over that exact debate.
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Calling Irish protestants 'English' is exactly the kind of thing that starts fights in Belfast.
Not just Ireland we had it in Scotland too and N Ireland is part of the UK so saying UK isn't wrong.
British Isles is more correct.
UK refers to England, Scotland, Wales, and N Ireland. If you are including the republic of Ireland then sure British isles would be more correct. As for UK being wrong it isn't and that is all I was saying regarding the issue with religion tension.
As an aside, the term British Isles is controversial in itself. There's a push for British and Irish isles or the North Atlantic Archipelago as an alternative.
It isn't controversial, just some people don't like it. Most people don't care, it is just a term that some place is called, can't please everyone.
Don't say that to the Irish! Neither Ireland, nor I believe the UK, recognises the British Isles as a geographical or legal term, and the Irish would generally say that it is not the correct term at all. In treaties about this matter, both the Irish and the UK governments simply use "these islands". At the time, it was all within the UK, I believe, so you could say something like "the UK at the time".
But I thought Captain Planet's Planeteers were able to stop the fighting?
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> seems a bit crazy Understatement of the year
He was *literally* schizophrenic.
Nah he was just chased all the time by glowni.... /s
[would rather revisit alan kay](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2LZLYcu_JY) as for the dev environment stuff, take a look into lisp, lisp machines, and smalltalk. there's a lot of similar *really* integrated dev environments that have existed in the past that don't rely on things like "the entire system is one global address space with cooperative multitasking", and that didn't have their development driven by mental illness. i like that terry inspires people to take an outside-the-box approach to programming, and that he's inspired people to look at coding in a different light, but his systems really only seem cutting edge if he's your first or only exposure to dev stuff that isn't "mainstream", for lack of a better word.
> don't rely on things like "the entire system is one global address space with cooperative multitasking" [If you can guarantee that there are no illegal accesses then you could eliminate a bit of overhead.](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/36992702/what-is-the-performance-impact-of-virtual-memory-relative-to-direct-mapped-memor)
sure, but that's a pretty tough guarantee in real world systems
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> That being said his love of simple solutions, and disregard for conventions is exactly what programming needs right now This I can 100% agree with, a lot of modern dev is such a pile of duct tape and glue and half the time writing a web app feels like trying to shut an overfull suitcase.
There's definitely a reason we don't use TempleOS or things even remotely like that for production systems. That said, I think especially nowadays there's a certain amount of nostalgia (if that's even the right word, most of it seems to be coming from people who never even touched a 16-bit DOS computer) for programming in real-mode operating systems and things of that nature, because it's so different from everything we work with day to day.
In every creative medium you need artists, people that go and do crazy^1 out there unique stuff. You don't get a useful complete thing, but an exploration and interesting thing that can then inspire improvements on bigger more complete and crazy stuff. This is true in programming. You need esoteric programming languages to explore ideas that are then explored and grown by small languages, which then inspire things that the mainstream languages use. You need this in software. I wish more people did crazy experimental OSes. Maybe the thing is that we need a good framework, LLVM opened the world to smaller experimental compiled languages, maybe something similar can be done for OSes? ^1 By crazy I am not making a reference to Terry, but just exploring ideas that have little backing or high risk, that would be too much to try on a serious program. Terry had a lot of talent as a programmer, sad his condition limited what he could do, but also he had the time and resources to explore this ideas.
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Not that you don't have a point - because you do. But I think those "goals of perfection" came later when Terry's illness advanced. I remember reading some docs about how he thought the Commodore 64 was a great machine, and he wanted to created a "C64-like" OS for X86. The Commodore 64 was very hackable as well; so it makes sense that TempleOS was so as well. Anyone would be out of their mind (no disrespect to Terry) to use this in a production environment. But for what it is, it is very, very cool.
> It is an impressive amount of work, in the same way that it would be impressive if someone painted their house with a mascara brush. just so you know, I will be stealing this ;)
Again the point was never to have a usable OS, the point was creating for creations same, and to explore that. It's not an OS meant to be used, it's a piece of art to inspire ideas.
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Again the point of art is the creation for the sake of creation. Terry considered that his inspiration was the word of God himself. You shouldn't look at temple OS and think: this is how an OS should be built. But you could look at something and think "that's an interesting idea", explore the idea to form it into something more practical. After a while it can evolve into a feature or way of looking into software. Overall though, it's incomplete, and shows that building a solid OS is far too much for a single person to do. But build something that is functional (if not that useful) and explore some ideas is possible.
Actually, Terry said TempleOS is just a secondary OS which you use as a temple, not as your primary OS.
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Terry was adding networking to templeOS in his final days, he wasn't done w/ the project. I found a video last night where he talked about adding networking days before he died. He had a lot more to add to the OS. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8GTB7yy774](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8GTB7yy774)
> There are some bits of it that I like. I like that assets are visible directly in the terminal and source code; more of that please. It is also cool that the entire OS can debug itself by dropping into breakpoints live, and re-jitting any edited code. Don’t know about the first, but pretty sure the second was a feature in lisp machines and smalltalk systems if the 80s.
The problem is that most of those ideas fall apart when scaling up. Either by being too expensive compute wise for bigger systems or just a horrible, massive security problem. Also you could say *arguably* the idea of just editing code of running app in flight is basically what Emacs does but at OS scale
It's a little bit like OneNote when you use it. However it all uses his own internal documentation language. That's kind of the downside here. It all seems to work seamlessly because he has his own editor and shell that understands this internal language. The problem is that the development world has always found that pure text streams are, by far, the most useful. Not document formats.
TempleOS doesn't really have anything new that wasn't already explored in language-based OSes and proper hypertext systems. As far as I recall, only source code in documents instead of plaintext is innovative, but that is deprecated by structural editing and/or image-based development.
The problem I have with TempleOS is that while it may be quite condensed code, it's _extremely_ inefficient. The performance bloat is far beyond anyone has ever seen on PC systems ever. It makes me lose a lot of the amazement that I have for the system when you need to run the OS on a modern 2000$ PC just to get it to play a 1980ish game at like 20 FPS. Part of that problem is probably due to having to run the OS only on a virtual machine, which is another problem that I have with it. Granted, there are reasons for it, since as far as I know it's absurdly annoying and/or difficult to deal with modern hardware tech at the base level, and would probably bloat the code up like crazy.
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Yeah I hate the ineffiency of webapp style applications. Although they do have the advantage of being cross-platform at least, but it's like making a deal with the devil.
> it's extremely inefficient. You can see the CPU usage in the top right corner during his videos. 99% of the time he has 7 out of 8 cores at 1%. I presume they never report 0. The remaining core is usually 5% to 30%. He ran it on an 8 core machine because he could. Not because he needed to.
I personally haven't ran it myself, but I've heard from people running slightly older computers getting 1-5 FPS.
Do you also fuck with a borrowed dick?
An OS does not have inefficient use of the CPU just by not using the GPU.
I presume you meant to say "just because it doesn't use the GPU doesn't mean that it's inefficiently using the CPU". I'd reply with "even though it isn't using the GPU, it's _STILL_ inefficiently using the CPU." Although I suppose much of it might just be in the design of the games/software itself, not the OS. At the least, _whatever_ is resulting in the poor performance (even if it was just not using the GPU), that in itself is still a problem.
Terry inspired me in so many ways, and not a day goes by that I don't think about him. His own mind slowly turned against him, but he still kept at it, working on his passion project even as reality itself crumbled around him. RIP.
Hey, /u/SerenityOS, you might like hear this: I was reading your last update to /r/programming and had the thought "this guy is like our next TempleOS". My next thought was "I'm glad our next Terry is a guy who makes friendly replies to most comments". We can't blame Terry for his problems -- he didn't choose his brain -- but it's nice to have a positive person doing the "make my own OS from scratch" project. You might be surprised as to the number of people who don't follow your work closely or respond to your posts, but are still happy to have you here and are cheering for you, if not out loud.
Hey fresh\_account2222, thanks for the thoughtful comment. I'm certainly not looking to replace Terry or TempleOS, but I'm happy to hear that my work resonates with people, and also with those who don't interact with it/me as much :)
I love you, and I hope you're doing well. This whole Terry situation makes me think I'm gonna start trying and bring nicer, so here's step one. I hope you're having a great day, keep at what you're doing and you'll get it done.
I love you both
>Terry inspired me in so many ways, and **not a day goes by that I don't think about him.** (X) Doubt
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I wouldn't say it's based off of it, inspired by though yes
Google the name of the guy you replied to.
I literally beat off every night to a mental image of terry both physically and metaphysically
Does your image glow in the dark?
How does one beat off metaphysically? Asking for friend.
The guy your replying to is building his own operating system too, partially inspired by terry
But what was his insight into big and little endian? I want to know now!
The man was truly a genius. "The purpose of Internet Explorer is to install Firefox" -King Terry
It's sad what happened to him, a lesson for the rest of us. He doesn't need an OS to talk to God anymore. RIP.
I'm not sure what lesson is to be learned. It's not like he was a totally neurotypical guy driven mad by pure dedication to programming or overwork; he had schizophrenia.
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The CIA pushed him in. Terry was murdered. Educate yourself.
Billy just took off his shirt. Greatest opening ever.
Source on his schizophrenia being caused by paint fumes? Did he use to huff paint to get high or something?
To me, it's the lesson that a lot of people can become like him. Schizophrenia or not. Especially in computer programming where there is some weird effect of working with computers where social behavior norms take a toll.
There is no "weird effect"... people who have most of their time consumed by something that doesn't involve social interaction is going to inevitably take time away from improving on social interaction. Then you have the other side of it where people who are socially awkward and/or sometimes on the spectrum are obsessed with computers since they likely don't like social interaction in the first place.
You're right--schizophrenia can be developed (for example early-life cannabis use can worsen the long-term symptoms in some people), and it may not have even onset otherwise. In other areas of the world, diseases similar to schizophrenia are solved in a social manner and these people can actually get better. In fact, schizophrenia doesn't really have any clear diagnostic symptoms, most of psychological diseases have co-morbidism. Depression leads to isolation, which can lead to schizophrenia in those who are disposed to it, and the ones who complain about it are often the ones who don't get better, for whatever reason. These pre-graduate (armchair) psychologists are all idiots, so don't worry about them.
Did schizophrenia make him racist?
Yes? That's well within the bounds of what schizophrenia can do - impulsiveness, paranoia, and aggressiveness are common symptoms. If he was functioning normally it's entirely possible he might have just been a regular person with average level of fear of the other.
Possibly, it well could do that, possibly even without any pre-existing racism. I know a schizophrenic who despite medication, has a lot of completely irrational beliefs. That their family members won't let them work a job, that they became completely incapable of e.g. cutting bread and had to purchase really expensive knives they now wont even use, that they cannot draw because paper and pencils are expensive and printer toner even more - and wont understand they're spending way more on food that only spoils, or that they don't need toner to draw. And this is a medicated schizophrenic.
Possibly.
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He thought every other programmer was inferior
But was he even capable of thinking that as you or I would? Dude thought he was speaking to god.
U sure about that?
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That's a theologically complicated topic - whether someone with diminished faculties is judged that strictly. And that's assuming God doesn't agree with the tirades.
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You seem to enjoy theologically contentious topics.
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> I don't know if it actually made any difference to our field. And that devalues his contributions how, exactly? I'm 100% sure you've made even less of a difference than him, so go glow elsewhere.
Uh, what? The abrahamic god is the most petty and destructive.
I mean, I've skimmed through the old testament. God does a whole lot of slavery-endorsing, torturing, mass murder, and so on. Quite literally Satan is the better guy of the two, whose main sin was disagreeing with God.
This dude was ten times the programmer than I'll ever be. I'd almost be willing to trade a tiny bit of sanity for some of the knowledge he had.
> trading sanity for knowledge As someone who's experienced the effects of mental illness from proximity...you don't wanna go down that road bud.
Understandable. After all, he was the [smartest programmer that has ever lived.](https://youtu.be/mBgIBF9Y6PE)
Amazing first example in the editor! U0 FuckYou() { MOV RAX, 'Fuck ' CALL &PUT_CHARS MOV RAX, 'You\n' CALL &PUT_CHARS } FuckYou;
New drinking game: take a shot every time Terry Davis declares himself to be the smartest programmer who ever lived.
Wtf did my liver ever do to you?
Does anyone happen to know how big the ISO file is?
2.1 MB!! 👀
>"I'm the smartest programmer that has ever lived!" Almost had me convinced until he used `i++` instead of `++i`. smh On a serious note: What happened to this man was a real tragedy.
> Almost had me convinced until he used i++ instead of ++i. smh It's HolyC, though: they're identical. None of the FBI Illuminati pre/post-increment nonsense to be found in God's language.
As an aside, after all these years I still can't get over what an amazing pun HolyC is. Truly some of his finest work.
Yeah, it's a pretty solid pun.
Can you explain the joke?
It's a play on the [Holy See](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See)
Oh, I C! Does it have any other layers to it other than the wording similarity?
Well I mean, there is the context of Terry thinking he was sent by God to write His OS.
*law enforcement noises*
Is there a reason they're the same in HolyC? The distinction makes a lot of sense in other languages.
They're actually probably not. I was just having some fun. The post I responded to was complaining about post/pre-increment, though, which in C is always the same performance-wise, whereas in C++ can be very meaningful, since the post-increment creates a copy.
It creates a copy when that copy operation has observable side effects. If your object is trivially copyable they're the same.
That's a modern day Lovecraftian pact if ever there was one.
10 times? Sorry dude but Terry was 100 times Bill Gates
Looks like Terry Davis is going to become famous now that he is not around to cause too much embarrassment to anyone who chooses to draw attention to him.
CIA N-words
Glow in the dark
CIA+=Glow
[This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCgoxQCf5Jg) is also a good video on the topic.
Inspiring.
Terry taught me to disregard the niggerlicious, and seek out the devine intellect
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