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The idea that Braavos is going to be Anti-Dany can be disproven through their history. Braavos was happy neighbours to a Dragon Dynasty for 150 years, and the Sealord even betrothed his son to a dragonrider. By contrast they fought 6 wars against Pentos over the last 400 years to prevent them from practicing slavery. Their anti-slavery stance trumps their anti-dragon stance. It says on the main arch in Braavos 'All men are free', not 'We really hate Dragons'.
For now, it would appear so. But Dany might do things in Winds that will make them change their stance (you can check [my theory about the Dornish Master Plan](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/comments/ynchat/the_real_dornish_master_plan_is_the_payoff_george/) to get where I'm coming from).
I just keep going back to that quote where George says:
>Q:"Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn’t really grow in Braavos’s cold, foggy climate. Is this discrepancy significant? Does it point to future revelations about Dany’s past?”
>A:**“Very perceptive of you. Yes, it does point to… well, that would be telling.”**
He's the one that made it a mystery.
Yes, but how big a mystery?
There are at least two things the lemon tree could be tied to that don't require us to think of a different city:
* The resources needed to care for an exotic plant in that kind of climate suggests the house with the red door was on a rich person's property, rather than a guest house Willem Darry and the Targaryen kids paid for themselves.
* The lemon tree could have been a gift brought by Oberyn Martell - either for the Sealord or the Targaryen kids - when he came to Braavos to sign the secret marriage pact with Willem Darry. Since the latter died without ever revealing that information to his protegees, Dany never knew where the lemon tree had come from - she simply remembered that it was there.
Both of these explanations point at the House with the Red Door belonging to the then Sealord (which may or may not be the same person right now, and/or later on in Winds). This is the Occam's Razor solution, and it does nothing but reinforce Braavos's dramatic connection to Daenerys.
Yup, and something that I think is often ignored in the Lemongate theories…the Sealord WAS involved. That’s not even up in the air. We know this from (I believe) Doran who mentions the pact that was made between the Martell’s and Darry with the Sealord overseeing it. Which tells me two things: 1., the mystery is probably more about the fact that the Sealord of Braavos was sheltering them, as opposed to “random house in Braavos”, and 2., he must be involved in some way. If Lemongate is true and they were never on Braavos, why in the world is the Sealord involving himself in this at all? Why did Darry travel to Braavos for the signing of the pact (or why did the Sealord travel to wherever Darry was)? I really can’t make that make sense if Dany and Viserys weren’t in Braavos.
I honestly think we can rule out the fact that Dany grew up in the sea lords palace. For one the House with the red door is a reminder of simpler times for Dany and none of her description of it describes a lavish palace that had a zoo and she doesn’t remember the crappy bravos weather or the distinct smell of the sea. Dany did not grow up in Bravos.
So she’s a total idiot who forgot where she was when she got kicked out of her home, and the Sealord is running around witnessing deals with Dorne that have nothing whatsoever to do with him?
Which part did she specifically state that the weather was incredible and she definitely didn’t smell the sea? We’re not in her head at the time she was there. All we get is that she believes she was there (and I don’t believe she’s so stupid that she was in a totally different country, aware and understanding what was happening, so there’s no “she was a baby” or “she was in a coma and woke in another country, and Viserys told her they had been in Braavos”), she remembers a lemon tree (which is not native to Braavos, agreed, but it is also specifically called out that trees not native to Braavos are found in the gardens of the rich), and she remembers a red door and that they got kicked out sometime after Darry’s death. We’re not in her head during those years hearing about how wonderful the weather is and there definitely isn’t any sea nearby. She also didn’t describe the area as anything else that would pinpoint where she allegedly was, because she isn’t thinking back and painstakingly explaining every little detail of her history in flashbacks, like Jaime sometimes does. She just thinks about it offhand.
I also didn’t necessarily say she was in the Sealords Palace, that seems unlikely if they’re in hiding at that time. I assumed a second home of his or something of the sort.
I don’t think she is an idiot she was very young and spent a large portion of her childhood on the run being fed bad info from Viserys. The idea that she might not have a perfectly picture of her childhood makes quite a bit of sense. Harping on Danys intelligence in relation to this theory is odd, most young children aren’t very intelligent and most adults don’t even have a perfect memory of there childhood and get details wrong.
>Which part did she specifically state that the weather was incredible and she definitely didn’t smell the sea?
Well she said sweet smelling perfumes reminded her of her childhood which she tends to associate with the House with the Red Door. Bravos is noted of smelling like salt and fish by Arya, so sweet smelling perfumes seems massively at odds with this. As for the weather you are right I can’t find a mention of it but I suppose it’s a bit unusual that Dany never makes mention of the notoriously awful bravosi weather she grew up with.
>she remembers a lemon tree (which is not native to Braavos, agreed, but it is also specifically called out that trees not native to Braavos are found in the gardens of the rich
It seems highly unlikely a lemon tree would grow in Bravos unless it was in a type of Greenhouse(which Dany would remember) we are explicitly told by charecters in the story that lemon trees don’t grow in bravos and the freezing rainy climate of bravos doesn’t really make it feasible for one to be grown there unless Bravos has an unusual bout of favorable weather.
>We’re not in her head during those years hearing about how wonderful the weather is and there definitely isn’t any sea nearby
If there isn’t any sea nearby that seems like a pretty solid indicator that Dany wasn’t in bravos. Also she never makes note of one of the most noteworthy landmarks in all of planetos The Titan of Bravos, even in the vague memories Dany would have had she should have remembered the Titan of Bravos.
>The idea that she might not have a perfectly picture of her childhood makes quite a bit of sense.
By that same logic, you can also explain away most of the "issues" you raise about her not remembering specific details... Although they don't even need to be explained away, because they're not conclusive of anything. They're simply an absence of evidence, which is not the same as the evidence of absence.
The real problem with Lemongate isn't that the established narrative makes a lot more sense (which it does), it's that it wouldn't serve the story. It reads like a piece of sensational tabloid news, and that's all it has for it. "Shock and terror! The last Targaryen, who brought dragons back into the world, isn't really a Targaryen!" So %$&@\*\^# what? Or even worse, "The Mother of Dragons didn't spend her childhood the way she thought she did". And...? How is this meaningful for Dany's arc, as opposed to being a shoved-in retcon hijack?
> it seems that George doesn't want to give us a reason to dismiss this emotional connection - on the contrary, he wants to underline how special it is.
It seems like this would SUPPORT Lemongate, not disprove it?
No, because it suggests that the emotional connection was what was important there, not “lol it’d be funny if Dany and Viserys were too dumb to know what city they were in for the sake of a useless mystery”.
I agree. The phrase "but that was all" emphasises the singular association with home while "but only for a little while" repeats the transient nature of this feeling which has already been expressed earlier: "In Braavos, there **had** been a house with a red door."
> Echo: *Did I fall asleep?*
> Topher: *For a little while.*
> ^-*Dollhouse*
Daenerys was accepted into Braavos as a child and her dream-like memories are absent of much of the political and practical reasons the young Targaryen's were welcomed. Did they leave because Braavos soured on them or for external reasons? Will the Sealord, the Bank, the House of Black and White be as welcoming to this dragon that was asleep for a little while but has now awoken?
>Braavos soured on them
Brilliant! :)) Your word play is on point! xD
The lemon tree could be setting up a deep feeling of disillusionment. It's seared in her memory as one of the symbols of her childhood life, but in reality, maybe that tree survived for a year or so, and died from the first frost soon after they left. When she returns to Braavos, she won't find it there any more, only a sad red door and the damp, gloomy chill of the coming winter.
Assuming Dany prevails in the battle for Slaver’s Bay, this would only work to strengthen Braavos. Dany could easily trade Slaver’s Bay plunder in exchange for a Braavosi alliance paying Westerosi debts. I know Stannis has also pledged but the Iron Bank wants their money I don’t think it matters who it’s from. Also the phrase “a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush” plays here if Dany has plunder readily available I could easily see them aiding Dany.
Welcome to /r/PureASOIAF! Just a brief reminder that this subreddit is focused only on the **written** *ASOIAF* universe. Comments that include discussion of the HBO adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy. # Users should assume that *any* mention of the show is subject to removal. *If you see a comment which violates the rules, please [use the report function](https://i.imgur.com/Uqjnwss.png) to notify moderators!* [Read our discussion policy in full.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/wiki/index#wiki_i._discussion_policy) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/pureasoiaf) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The idea that Braavos is going to be Anti-Dany can be disproven through their history. Braavos was happy neighbours to a Dragon Dynasty for 150 years, and the Sealord even betrothed his son to a dragonrider. By contrast they fought 6 wars against Pentos over the last 400 years to prevent them from practicing slavery. Their anti-slavery stance trumps their anti-dragon stance. It says on the main arch in Braavos 'All men are free', not 'We really hate Dragons'.
>and the Sealord even betrothed his son to a dragonrider. that's actually a very good point.
For now, it would appear so. But Dany might do things in Winds that will make them change their stance (you can check [my theory about the Dornish Master Plan](https://www.reddit.com/r/pureasoiaf/comments/ynchat/the_real_dornish_master_plan_is_the_payoff_george/) to get where I'm coming from).
I just keep going back to that quote where George says: >Q:"Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn’t really grow in Braavos’s cold, foggy climate. Is this discrepancy significant? Does it point to future revelations about Dany’s past?” >A:**“Very perceptive of you. Yes, it does point to… well, that would be telling.”** He's the one that made it a mystery.
Yes, but how big a mystery? There are at least two things the lemon tree could be tied to that don't require us to think of a different city: * The resources needed to care for an exotic plant in that kind of climate suggests the house with the red door was on a rich person's property, rather than a guest house Willem Darry and the Targaryen kids paid for themselves. * The lemon tree could have been a gift brought by Oberyn Martell - either for the Sealord or the Targaryen kids - when he came to Braavos to sign the secret marriage pact with Willem Darry. Since the latter died without ever revealing that information to his protegees, Dany never knew where the lemon tree had come from - she simply remembered that it was there. Both of these explanations point at the House with the Red Door belonging to the then Sealord (which may or may not be the same person right now, and/or later on in Winds). This is the Occam's Razor solution, and it does nothing but reinforce Braavos's dramatic connection to Daenerys.
Yup, and something that I think is often ignored in the Lemongate theories…the Sealord WAS involved. That’s not even up in the air. We know this from (I believe) Doran who mentions the pact that was made between the Martell’s and Darry with the Sealord overseeing it. Which tells me two things: 1., the mystery is probably more about the fact that the Sealord of Braavos was sheltering them, as opposed to “random house in Braavos”, and 2., he must be involved in some way. If Lemongate is true and they were never on Braavos, why in the world is the Sealord involving himself in this at all? Why did Darry travel to Braavos for the signing of the pact (or why did the Sealord travel to wherever Darry was)? I really can’t make that make sense if Dany and Viserys weren’t in Braavos.
I honestly think we can rule out the fact that Dany grew up in the sea lords palace. For one the House with the red door is a reminder of simpler times for Dany and none of her description of it describes a lavish palace that had a zoo and she doesn’t remember the crappy bravos weather or the distinct smell of the sea. Dany did not grow up in Bravos.
So she’s a total idiot who forgot where she was when she got kicked out of her home, and the Sealord is running around witnessing deals with Dorne that have nothing whatsoever to do with him? Which part did she specifically state that the weather was incredible and she definitely didn’t smell the sea? We’re not in her head at the time she was there. All we get is that she believes she was there (and I don’t believe she’s so stupid that she was in a totally different country, aware and understanding what was happening, so there’s no “she was a baby” or “she was in a coma and woke in another country, and Viserys told her they had been in Braavos”), she remembers a lemon tree (which is not native to Braavos, agreed, but it is also specifically called out that trees not native to Braavos are found in the gardens of the rich), and she remembers a red door and that they got kicked out sometime after Darry’s death. We’re not in her head during those years hearing about how wonderful the weather is and there definitely isn’t any sea nearby. She also didn’t describe the area as anything else that would pinpoint where she allegedly was, because she isn’t thinking back and painstakingly explaining every little detail of her history in flashbacks, like Jaime sometimes does. She just thinks about it offhand. I also didn’t necessarily say she was in the Sealords Palace, that seems unlikely if they’re in hiding at that time. I assumed a second home of his or something of the sort.
I don’t think she is an idiot she was very young and spent a large portion of her childhood on the run being fed bad info from Viserys. The idea that she might not have a perfectly picture of her childhood makes quite a bit of sense. Harping on Danys intelligence in relation to this theory is odd, most young children aren’t very intelligent and most adults don’t even have a perfect memory of there childhood and get details wrong. >Which part did she specifically state that the weather was incredible and she definitely didn’t smell the sea? Well she said sweet smelling perfumes reminded her of her childhood which she tends to associate with the House with the Red Door. Bravos is noted of smelling like salt and fish by Arya, so sweet smelling perfumes seems massively at odds with this. As for the weather you are right I can’t find a mention of it but I suppose it’s a bit unusual that Dany never makes mention of the notoriously awful bravosi weather she grew up with. >she remembers a lemon tree (which is not native to Braavos, agreed, but it is also specifically called out that trees not native to Braavos are found in the gardens of the rich It seems highly unlikely a lemon tree would grow in Bravos unless it was in a type of Greenhouse(which Dany would remember) we are explicitly told by charecters in the story that lemon trees don’t grow in bravos and the freezing rainy climate of bravos doesn’t really make it feasible for one to be grown there unless Bravos has an unusual bout of favorable weather. >We’re not in her head during those years hearing about how wonderful the weather is and there definitely isn’t any sea nearby If there isn’t any sea nearby that seems like a pretty solid indicator that Dany wasn’t in bravos. Also she never makes note of one of the most noteworthy landmarks in all of planetos The Titan of Bravos, even in the vague memories Dany would have had she should have remembered the Titan of Bravos.
>The idea that she might not have a perfectly picture of her childhood makes quite a bit of sense. By that same logic, you can also explain away most of the "issues" you raise about her not remembering specific details... Although they don't even need to be explained away, because they're not conclusive of anything. They're simply an absence of evidence, which is not the same as the evidence of absence. The real problem with Lemongate isn't that the established narrative makes a lot more sense (which it does), it's that it wouldn't serve the story. It reads like a piece of sensational tabloid news, and that's all it has for it. "Shock and terror! The last Targaryen, who brought dragons back into the world, isn't really a Targaryen!" So %$&@\*\^# what? Or even worse, "The Mother of Dragons didn't spend her childhood the way she thought she did". And...? How is this meaningful for Dany's arc, as opposed to being a shoved-in retcon hijack?
> it seems that George doesn't want to give us a reason to dismiss this emotional connection - on the contrary, he wants to underline how special it is. It seems like this would SUPPORT Lemongate, not disprove it?
No, because it suggests that the emotional connection was what was important there, not “lol it’d be funny if Dany and Viserys were too dumb to know what city they were in for the sake of a useless mystery”.
I agree. The phrase "but that was all" emphasises the singular association with home while "but only for a little while" repeats the transient nature of this feeling which has already been expressed earlier: "In Braavos, there **had** been a house with a red door." > Echo: *Did I fall asleep?* > Topher: *For a little while.* > ^-*Dollhouse* Daenerys was accepted into Braavos as a child and her dream-like memories are absent of much of the political and practical reasons the young Targaryen's were welcomed. Did they leave because Braavos soured on them or for external reasons? Will the Sealord, the Bank, the House of Black and White be as welcoming to this dragon that was asleep for a little while but has now awoken?
>Braavos soured on them Brilliant! :)) Your word play is on point! xD The lemon tree could be setting up a deep feeling of disillusionment. It's seared in her memory as one of the symbols of her childhood life, but in reality, maybe that tree survived for a year or so, and died from the first frost soon after they left. When she returns to Braavos, she won't find it there any more, only a sad red door and the damp, gloomy chill of the coming winter.
Assuming Dany prevails in the battle for Slaver’s Bay, this would only work to strengthen Braavos. Dany could easily trade Slaver’s Bay plunder in exchange for a Braavosi alliance paying Westerosi debts. I know Stannis has also pledged but the Iron Bank wants their money I don’t think it matters who it’s from. Also the phrase “a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush” plays here if Dany has plunder readily available I could easily see them aiding Dany.
Dragonstone has a red door