I don't want Stamkos, frankly. Is he a good player, yes. But I don't want to fall into the same trap that the rangers seem to do in overpaying for an elite player who is past their prime. We need to start looking for younger, grittier players, especially at that 1RW position. I know there arent many options but that doesn't mean we should settle.
We can beat Nashville. We have the ability to give pretty insane signing bonuses that can beat out almost any team except maybe Toronto and Montreal. Also Reinhart doesn’t have a deal done with Florida, we can outbid them especially if we get Trouba off our books.
exactly my words, I feel like I’ve been going insane or something reading a ton of kane comments
like, we already tried the oh yes sign him at all costs he is our savior thing before, and that was over a year ago, and it did not work, and he’s not getting any younger
Fine. Then force Kakko up there with Kreider and Zibanejad (since we know those f***s will never break them up) and KEEP HIM up there. No more 3rd line nonsense.
It’s insane that people keep saying things like this. I get it. We all wanted him to be elite. He had almost 20 games with Mika and Kreider at the beginning of the season and had like 3 points.
It always comes back to some soft underlying metrics. So many nerds with graphs arguing that players that are obviously ineffective on the ice are better than they are.
I’m all for advanced stats, but it’s been 5 years and Kakko isn’t producing. I love him as a 3rd line wing, but if he’s on one of the top 2 lines, there’s a problem.
How would you distribute those minutes? And who’s playing rw next to trocheck and Mika? And doing that removes the teams best RW and moves him to 3rd line LW No offense but it makes no sense
Top line kid line
Panarin Zibanejad Trocheck (he’s played RW before)
Kreider sadly has to get demoted to third line but he can for sure still stay on PP1
This is easily one of the dumbest things I’ve ever seen here. So your top line has two guys on it who have shown zero capability of being top line players. On top of that, you take our best center and best faceoff man and put him at right wing. My fucking lord.
You’re right, because we’ve seen Zibanejad’s peak and that’s ~80 points probably 50-60% of those on powerplay, refusal to work with anyone except Kreider, and we have a SECOND OVERALL PICK who is still in his EARLY 20S and DEVELOPMENT MESSED UP BY COVID and we have no clue what his ceiling is.
You really think Z is telling multiple coaches he won't play with anyone but Chris kreider or playing differently because he's not playing with kreider? He's a point per game player with Sweden with no CK anywhere around.
Because the double standards are not fair. MZ can be complete dogs*** all year and no consequences. No healthy scratch, no line demotion, no removal of PP time. It’s not fair and that’s no way to treat your high end draft pick like Kakko.
20 and 93's results with Kakko have been consistently good for years
in the last 3 seasons, 20/93/24 have outshot their opponents 380-310, out scoring chanced them 363-297, out high-danger'd them 177-123, and outscored them 24-14 (despite a 6.32% on-ice shooting%)
the results really are there
I think the problem is Kakko hasn’t cemented himself enough as either a passer or a shooter to make that line truly shine. There’s a reason Roslovic had some success, 20/93 needed a guy who could carry the puck and work the boards. Kakko can be that, but his playmaking/finishing need to be improved.
Kakko flashed enough moments of high end skill and finishing ability at the end of the regular season. I’m not saying he has a Laf-like breakout in ‘24-25, but the opportunity is there is he wants it. I worry his issue is mental - he’ll put in the work to stay in the NHL, but not necessarily what it takes to step up. If he goes into next season telling Lavvy “I’m your RW1” and plays like he lives to set up 20/93 then he can, but he’s got to have that same change in approach Laf took.
>I think the problem is Kakko hasn’t cemented himself enough as either a passer or a shooter to make that line truly shine. There’s a reason Roslovic had some success, 20/93 needed a guy who could carry the puck and work the boards. Kakko can be that, but his playmaking/finishing need to be improved.
Kakko does work the boards, his problem is he can't move the puck through the NZ that well (Roslovic can and that's why it was working). the line works very well when it's in the offensive zone. nobody can move Kakko off the puck and he's really good at keeping shifts alive
>Kakko flashed enough moments of high end skill and finishing ability at the end of the regular season. I’m not saying he has a Laf-like breakout in ‘24-25, but the opportunity is there is he wants it. I worry his issue is mental - he’ll put in the work to stay in the NHL, but not necessarily what it takes to step up. If he goes into next season telling Lavvy “I’m your RW1” and plays like he lives to set up 20/93 then he can, but he’s got to have that same change in approach Laf took.
Kakko's been one of the team's best finishers. top 3 at 5v5. and just like Gallant, Laviolette fell into the same trap that is on-ice shooting%. Laviolette kept 10/13 together because they started this season on a finishing bender and concluded the line was working. he broke up 20/93/24 because they weren't finishing, even though the basic metrics showed that the line was working but getting unlucky. I'm still of the belief that if 10/13 didn't start off hot out of the gate, they would've been broken up too
That first quarter of the season where 20/93/24 were snakebit AF really, really hurt, especially now that we see Lavy likes to cement the lineup and tinker with the fringe only. While I’d love to see Ehlers on the first line, we can honestly have Ehlers-at-home if 24 comes in with a clean slate approach and buries the puck. Fingers crossed.
>That first quarter of the season where 20/93/24 were snakebit AF really, really hurt, especially now that we see Lavy likes to cement the lineup and tinker with the fringe only.
bingo. it goes extremely underrated just how much on-ice shooting/save% dictates decision-making. not just with NYR, but around the league. if Brannstrom had a league-average on-ice shooting% instead of the 6% one he has, then he wouldn't have been let go for nothing
>While I’d love to see Ehlers on the first line, we can honestly have Ehlers-at-home if 24 comes in with a clean slate approach and buries the puck. Fingers crossed.
i would argue this is a bit of a stretch. Kakko is very very good, but Ehlers is elite, and I don't think that Kakko shooting higher would make up the difference. I'd say Kakko is more comparable to Buch
jack roslovic outproduced zibanejad at 5v5 in these playoffs in 4th line minutes and literally had the most 5v5 points of any forward not on our 2nd line
the only one being argumentative with a horrible take is you by falsely claiming that putting Kakko on a line with 20/93 makes things worse when even the most basic numbers show that this is not true.
Paragraph 1 - Yes but Z sucks and had a bad year all year and isn’t a 1C. However, we are stuck with him. That doesn’t mean Roslovic is good or has any place on a contending team. Context matters.
Paragraph 2 - Bottom line - A team that cannot get a better 1RW than Kakko through a draft, trades or free agency season will not win a Stanley cup. So, sure maybe their stats are a little better with Kakko there - it doesn’t matter. A cup team doesn’t have Kakko on the first line. Bottom line. Get someone else or continue to fall just short.
>Paragraph 1 - Yes but Z sucks and had a bad year all year and isn’t a 1C. However, we are stuck with him.
IMO Zibanejad does suck and isn't a 1C. i would even argue he shouldn't be a center on NYR at this point considering his only net-positive assets are shooting and 1v1 defense and he'd be better served as a complementary shooter on the wing
>That doesn’t mean Roslovic is good or has any place on a contending team. Context matters.
roslovic is good though. NYR offense was a [net-positive with him on the ice](https://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/teamShotLocOffWi/2324/NYR/rosloja97/wrap). his underlying metrics were quite good and he directly got Zibanejad out of his 5v5 production slump. both Zibanejad and Kreider's metrics skyrocketed [with him vs without him](https://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/wowy/2324/NYR/rosloja97/wrap). the word is good. not excellent or elite or amazing. just good. there's nothing wrong with that.
>A team that cannot get a better 1RW than Kakko through a draft, trades or free agency season will not win a Stanley cup. So, sure maybe their stats are a little better with Kakko there - it doesn’t matter. A cup team doesn’t have Kakko on the first line. Bottom line. Get someone else or continue to fall just short.
i would argue that the more pressing issue is Zibanejad and they are not winning the cup with him as 1C. i don't necessarily disagree about your point about Kakko, but the fact of the matter is that last year he was showing Buchnevich trajectory, and if he gets back to that, then that would absolutely be an asset on 1RW in a cup run. but he's not going to get there if he's not getting a legitimate chance on the line. more than a quarter of the season, and with actual ice time. he got borderline 4th line minutes this season. a large portion of his point production drop can be directly attributed to missing 20 games + average TOI dropping by almost a full 2 minutes
you might not like me but I actually have a sneaking suspicion that you will end up actually agreeing with me more than you might think as we go along here in this discussion
So we agree about Z. I’m sure we also agree that unless Drury has mind control capabilities, we’re stuck with him. So we either get a 1C somehow and put him at 3C, or we need to get an elite 1RW to try to pull that line of offense the basement. Neither of which are likely.
We view these advanced underlying metrics differently. You take them as gospel and I maybe use them sometimes to reinforce opinions on ACTUAL on ice perception of performance and ACTUAL results. So no, you won’t win me over throwing a million detailed graphs at me.
He was given plenty of time on the top line this year and had 3 points in his 1st 20 games
Kakko is a good player, specifically defensively. I would be happy to have him back as our RW3. He also cannot be our primary RW1 option heading into next year. He just isn’t good enough.
Even if you’re correct, that just makes it all the more important to add a RW1 who will make a huge impact on that top line. Kakko has shown he can’t do that.
“Not Kakko’s fault” =/= “Kakko should be our RW1”
You do understand we are in need to win yesterday mode right now, right? The guy has had chances, done little with them. If he’s even still on this team in the fall, he’s an option for injury. You absolutely cannot go into this year with him as plan A for Mika / Kreider. That is absolutely non controversial.
That’s what the Rangers get for rushing their rebuild and not constructing a team properly. BTW, if you kept up, you would know that there are currently two Cup Windows for the Rangers. The one we are in now while Panarin and co are still around, and the Future Cup Window when guys like Lafreniere and Perrault are in their primes.
I don’t care if the Rangers don’t win now because no veteran outside of Kreider has shown me that they’re interested in winning a Stanley Cup. So, f*** most of them, and focus on developing your young talent like Kakko.
this tends to happen when the corpse of wheeler outplays you all season
He was carried by LAF and Chytil last year, he's been awful offensively outside of that
I know it’s probably impossible and with Guentzel leaving Carolina, Necas probably stays but he’s one of the only players talked about being available I’d trade Kakko and a 1st for in a heartbeat. He’s going to break out and be elite, he also has one of the best entries through the neutral zone and offensive zone I’ve seen in a longtime. I’d love to slot him as the 1RW, he’s only going to get better.
What makes you think Arvidsson is a 3rd liner? He put up nearly a PPG coming back from injury on a pretty average Kings team and is around .75 ppg over the past 3 seasons with LA.
He’s not the best forward on the market, but you could get him for cheap and spend more on defense.
Well now I’m interested to see what we do at RW1 if Nashville is apparently all in on Stamkos and Kane’s seemingly no longer an option.
I don't want Stamkos, frankly. Is he a good player, yes. But I don't want to fall into the same trap that the rangers seem to do in overpaying for an elite player who is past their prime. We need to start looking for younger, grittier players, especially at that 1RW position. I know there arent many options but that doesn't mean we should settle.
Stamkos had 40 goals this year. I’ll gladly take a “past their prime” player who is a lock to score at least 30.
And the same was said about Kane, Tarasenko, etc etc etc over the last three decades with this team...
We can beat Nashville. We have the ability to give pretty insane signing bonuses that can beat out almost any team except maybe Toronto and Montreal. Also Reinhart doesn’t have a deal done with Florida, we can outbid them especially if we get Trouba off our books.
Kane on cheap with low term? Sign me up Kane without either of these? Nope
Thank god.
exactly my words, I feel like I’ve been going insane or something reading a ton of kane comments like, we already tried the oh yes sign him at all costs he is our savior thing before, and that was over a year ago, and it did not work, and he’s not getting any younger
Hopefully we target players who aren't washed up and at the end of their careers.
After he bungled his reporting on the Trouba trade, I don’t trust him
He could return. He also could not return. WHO fucking knows?
this is fine. there are better players available who fit NYR's needs
Fine. Then force Kakko up there with Kreider and Zibanejad (since we know those f***s will never break them up) and KEEP HIM up there. No more 3rd line nonsense.
Kakko isn’t a top line player on a cup winning team. Can we just stop with this?
It’s insane that people keep saying things like this. I get it. We all wanted him to be elite. He had almost 20 games with Mika and Kreider at the beginning of the season and had like 3 points.
It always comes back to some soft underlying metrics. So many nerds with graphs arguing that players that are obviously ineffective on the ice are better than they are.
I’m all for advanced stats, but it’s been 5 years and Kakko isn’t producing. I love him as a 3rd line wing, but if he’s on one of the top 2 lines, there’s a problem.
Bread trochek laf is the top line
Ok Kakko isn’t a second liner on a cup winning team. Can we stop with the pedantry now?
They need to be broken up and the wealth needs to be spread. Try Trocheck and Kreider together. Panarin and Zibanejad. And reunite The Kid Line
Laf needs first line minutes
I agree. Top line should be the Kid Line
How would you distribute those minutes? And who’s playing rw next to trocheck and Mika? And doing that removes the teams best RW and moves him to 3rd line LW No offense but it makes no sense
Top line kid line Panarin Zibanejad Trocheck (he’s played RW before) Kreider sadly has to get demoted to third line but he can for sure still stay on PP1
This is easily one of the dumbest things I’ve ever seen here. So your top line has two guys on it who have shown zero capability of being top line players. On top of that, you take our best center and best faceoff man and put him at right wing. My fucking lord.
those are some dogshit moves
And Zibanejad isn’t a #1 Centre on a Cup Winning team. Yet clearly this is what we’re working with. So what’s your point?
This is getting a little ridiculous. Ik Zib was disappointing but kakko is nowhere near his level.
You’re right, because we’ve seen Zibanejad’s peak and that’s ~80 points probably 50-60% of those on powerplay, refusal to work with anyone except Kreider, and we have a SECOND OVERALL PICK who is still in his EARLY 20S and DEVELOPMENT MESSED UP BY COVID and we have no clue what his ceiling is.
I wish I cared about anything as much as you care about Kappo Kakko
Good. I’m proud to care about Kakko and Chytil and Lafreniere. They’re the future of the Rangers.
Kakko has done nothing to make us think his ceiling is worth giving him top line minutes on a cup contending team
He’s your 2nd overall pick. He’s worth top line minutes. End of discussion. No other team would dream of treating their prospects like this.
True. Oilers gotta get Nail Yakupov top line minutes next year too then. Probably why they lost to Florida.
Nail Yakupov comparison. You probably wanted to send Lafreniere to the Sun this time last year.
And you probably should learn what sarcasm is
He’s played 300 games and has not shown a single flash of being a top line player.
You really think Z is telling multiple coaches he won't play with anyone but Chris kreider or playing differently because he's not playing with kreider? He's a point per game player with Sweden with no CK anywhere around.
So let’s make the problem worse by shoe horning Kakko there? lol makes zero sense
Because the double standards are not fair. MZ can be complete dogs*** all year and no consequences. No healthy scratch, no line demotion, no removal of PP time. It’s not fair and that’s no way to treat your high end draft pick like Kakko.
He was dog shit all year and I wish we could get rid of him, but we can’t with his contract, so it’s a moot point. I hate him too.
20 and 93's results with Kakko have been consistently good for years in the last 3 seasons, 20/93/24 have outshot their opponents 380-310, out scoring chanced them 363-297, out high-danger'd them 177-123, and outscored them 24-14 (despite a 6.32% on-ice shooting%) the results really are there
I think the problem is Kakko hasn’t cemented himself enough as either a passer or a shooter to make that line truly shine. There’s a reason Roslovic had some success, 20/93 needed a guy who could carry the puck and work the boards. Kakko can be that, but his playmaking/finishing need to be improved. Kakko flashed enough moments of high end skill and finishing ability at the end of the regular season. I’m not saying he has a Laf-like breakout in ‘24-25, but the opportunity is there is he wants it. I worry his issue is mental - he’ll put in the work to stay in the NHL, but not necessarily what it takes to step up. If he goes into next season telling Lavvy “I’m your RW1” and plays like he lives to set up 20/93 then he can, but he’s got to have that same change in approach Laf took.
>I think the problem is Kakko hasn’t cemented himself enough as either a passer or a shooter to make that line truly shine. There’s a reason Roslovic had some success, 20/93 needed a guy who could carry the puck and work the boards. Kakko can be that, but his playmaking/finishing need to be improved. Kakko does work the boards, his problem is he can't move the puck through the NZ that well (Roslovic can and that's why it was working). the line works very well when it's in the offensive zone. nobody can move Kakko off the puck and he's really good at keeping shifts alive >Kakko flashed enough moments of high end skill and finishing ability at the end of the regular season. I’m not saying he has a Laf-like breakout in ‘24-25, but the opportunity is there is he wants it. I worry his issue is mental - he’ll put in the work to stay in the NHL, but not necessarily what it takes to step up. If he goes into next season telling Lavvy “I’m your RW1” and plays like he lives to set up 20/93 then he can, but he’s got to have that same change in approach Laf took. Kakko's been one of the team's best finishers. top 3 at 5v5. and just like Gallant, Laviolette fell into the same trap that is on-ice shooting%. Laviolette kept 10/13 together because they started this season on a finishing bender and concluded the line was working. he broke up 20/93/24 because they weren't finishing, even though the basic metrics showed that the line was working but getting unlucky. I'm still of the belief that if 10/13 didn't start off hot out of the gate, they would've been broken up too
That first quarter of the season where 20/93/24 were snakebit AF really, really hurt, especially now that we see Lavy likes to cement the lineup and tinker with the fringe only. While I’d love to see Ehlers on the first line, we can honestly have Ehlers-at-home if 24 comes in with a clean slate approach and buries the puck. Fingers crossed.
>That first quarter of the season where 20/93/24 were snakebit AF really, really hurt, especially now that we see Lavy likes to cement the lineup and tinker with the fringe only. bingo. it goes extremely underrated just how much on-ice shooting/save% dictates decision-making. not just with NYR, but around the league. if Brannstrom had a league-average on-ice shooting% instead of the 6% one he has, then he wouldn't have been let go for nothing >While I’d love to see Ehlers on the first line, we can honestly have Ehlers-at-home if 24 comes in with a clean slate approach and buries the puck. Fingers crossed. i would argue this is a bit of a stretch. Kakko is very very good, but Ehlers is elite, and I don't think that Kakko shooting higher would make up the difference. I'd say Kakko is more comparable to Buch
Ah yes the argumentative guy with horrible takes and the RoslovicIsGood hashtag returns - excellent
jack roslovic outproduced zibanejad at 5v5 in these playoffs in 4th line minutes and literally had the most 5v5 points of any forward not on our 2nd line the only one being argumentative with a horrible take is you by falsely claiming that putting Kakko on a line with 20/93 makes things worse when even the most basic numbers show that this is not true.
Paragraph 1 - Yes but Z sucks and had a bad year all year and isn’t a 1C. However, we are stuck with him. That doesn’t mean Roslovic is good or has any place on a contending team. Context matters. Paragraph 2 - Bottom line - A team that cannot get a better 1RW than Kakko through a draft, trades or free agency season will not win a Stanley cup. So, sure maybe their stats are a little better with Kakko there - it doesn’t matter. A cup team doesn’t have Kakko on the first line. Bottom line. Get someone else or continue to fall just short.
>Paragraph 1 - Yes but Z sucks and had a bad year all year and isn’t a 1C. However, we are stuck with him. IMO Zibanejad does suck and isn't a 1C. i would even argue he shouldn't be a center on NYR at this point considering his only net-positive assets are shooting and 1v1 defense and he'd be better served as a complementary shooter on the wing >That doesn’t mean Roslovic is good or has any place on a contending team. Context matters. roslovic is good though. NYR offense was a [net-positive with him on the ice](https://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/teamShotLocOffWi/2324/NYR/rosloja97/wrap). his underlying metrics were quite good and he directly got Zibanejad out of his 5v5 production slump. both Zibanejad and Kreider's metrics skyrocketed [with him vs without him](https://hockeyviz.com/fixedImg/wowy/2324/NYR/rosloja97/wrap). the word is good. not excellent or elite or amazing. just good. there's nothing wrong with that. >A team that cannot get a better 1RW than Kakko through a draft, trades or free agency season will not win a Stanley cup. So, sure maybe their stats are a little better with Kakko there - it doesn’t matter. A cup team doesn’t have Kakko on the first line. Bottom line. Get someone else or continue to fall just short. i would argue that the more pressing issue is Zibanejad and they are not winning the cup with him as 1C. i don't necessarily disagree about your point about Kakko, but the fact of the matter is that last year he was showing Buchnevich trajectory, and if he gets back to that, then that would absolutely be an asset on 1RW in a cup run. but he's not going to get there if he's not getting a legitimate chance on the line. more than a quarter of the season, and with actual ice time. he got borderline 4th line minutes this season. a large portion of his point production drop can be directly attributed to missing 20 games + average TOI dropping by almost a full 2 minutes you might not like me but I actually have a sneaking suspicion that you will end up actually agreeing with me more than you might think as we go along here in this discussion
So we agree about Z. I’m sure we also agree that unless Drury has mind control capabilities, we’re stuck with him. So we either get a 1C somehow and put him at 3C, or we need to get an elite 1RW to try to pull that line of offense the basement. Neither of which are likely. We view these advanced underlying metrics differently. You take them as gospel and I maybe use them sometimes to reinforce opinions on ACTUAL on ice perception of performance and ACTUAL results. So no, you won’t win me over throwing a million detailed graphs at me.
Don’t compare Zibanejad with Kakko lol
Kakko has a higher ceiling. So
Is this a troll lol. Zibs ceiling is 40+ goals 90 points.
Kakko is a 3rd line player maybe a 3nd at best. Don’t be fooled by his draft position.
They literally do not have time to have Kakko as plan A. My word.
Sure so bury him in the bottom six and then act shocked when he scores only 30 pts in 82 games and tank his trade value even further. Great plan
He was given plenty of time on the top line this year and had 3 points in his 1st 20 games Kakko is a good player, specifically defensively. I would be happy to have him back as our RW3. He also cannot be our primary RW1 option heading into next year. He just isn’t good enough.
Not Kakko’s fault. How about we blame ZIBANEJAD the supposed #1 C who’s supposed to drive play for having a horrible year especially at 5v5,
Even if you’re correct, that just makes it all the more important to add a RW1 who will make a huge impact on that top line. Kakko has shown he can’t do that. “Not Kakko’s fault” =/= “Kakko should be our RW1”
He’s a 30 point guy in the NHL, so yeah, won’t be too surprised by that.
Because he’s constantly stuck on the 3rd line with no PP or even PK time…..
You do understand we are in need to win yesterday mode right now, right? The guy has had chances, done little with them. If he’s even still on this team in the fall, he’s an option for injury. You absolutely cannot go into this year with him as plan A for Mika / Kreider. That is absolutely non controversial.
That’s what the Rangers get for rushing their rebuild and not constructing a team properly. BTW, if you kept up, you would know that there are currently two Cup Windows for the Rangers. The one we are in now while Panarin and co are still around, and the Future Cup Window when guys like Lafreniere and Perrault are in their primes. I don’t care if the Rangers don’t win now because no veteran outside of Kreider has shown me that they’re interested in winning a Stanley Cup. So, f*** most of them, and focus on developing your young talent like Kakko.
Good lord.
Fuck my ass!
this tends to happen when the corpse of wheeler outplays you all season He was carried by LAF and Chytil last year, he's been awful offensively outside of that
Good
Good. Goooooood
I know it’s probably impossible and with Guentzel leaving Carolina, Necas probably stays but he’s one of the only players talked about being available I’d trade Kakko and a 1st for in a heartbeat. He’s going to break out and be elite, he also has one of the best entries through the neutral zone and offensive zone I’ve seen in a longtime. I’d love to slot him as the 1RW, he’s only going to get better.
I would be absolutely estatic if Necas is somehow acquired
Great, my Arvidsson agenda will prevail.
How many third liners do we need on this team?
What makes you think Arvidsson is a 3rd liner? He put up nearly a PPG coming back from injury on a pretty average Kings team and is around .75 ppg over the past 3 seasons with LA. He’s not the best forward on the market, but you could get him for cheap and spend more on defense.
Kane wants term and we are in no condition to give him term with the important RFA's we need to sign next year on top of Igor's contract.
Do they still have space to take Trouba though..
Yea Jake Walman was sent to the oblivion to free up 3.4M
Plz stay in Detroit. I don’t want him affiliated w/the rangers.
Bring me VATRANOSSSSSSSS