I commend you for taking the first step in looking for a trainer. Many don’t. The trainers are probably tired of dealing with owners who won’t put in the work and just want a magically trained dog. Not saying that’s you at all but that might explain the preemptive attitude. I hope you find the right trainer for you and your pup.
Thanks. I talked to another trainer today who:
* Opened the conversation with encouragement that this situation sounded manageable and in her experience I should be able to quickly see *some* level of improvement (totally reasonable expectation to set, fwiw I didn't expect a miracle).
* Straightforward plans and rates shared up front.
* Asked what I had tried so far and said that I had the right idea! But apparently clicker training + positive reinforcement can be tricky to implement for behavioral issues.
* Didn't ask for a full psychological workup on the dog's entire lives. I even asked if she needed this and she said we could talk about that later in person.
Literally exactly what I was looking for. Felt like she totally understood where I was coming from and gave me credit for wanting to make a change and trying to fix it myself.
You got those responses because you co tasted a trainer and not a certified behaviorist. I am an ACAAB (Associate Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist) and the person that gets brought in when reactivity is present. Most trainers give horrible advice with reactive dogs and make things worse. I do ask questions but I need to know all the whens, why's, and how's in order to come up with a plan that fits your dog. Your dogs barking doesn't necessarily make them reactive. Most dogs bark in those situations. All of mine do at the same time for what feels like forever when they see a car come down our driveway. They will bark if they hear a car driving down my neighbors lane. It's annoying and can be managed, but as annoying as it is I prefer they bark to deter random people from coming on the property. Now if there is aggression with the barking that's reactivity. This new person sounds better than the last ones you talked to but ask for credentials and her experience. Don't waste your money on someone that claims to be behaviorist or behavioral trainer without the proof and experience behind them. I've seen people spend thousands of dollars on trainers that did nothing but waste the owners time and money. Most pet owners aren't professional trainers and do the best they can. There are plenty of days I slack with training and consistency. Life sometimes gets in the way and to be belittle for that is absurd, especially when your asking for help. I wish you the best and if I can be of any help please reach out.
Tiffany, M.S. , ACAAB
Thanks for the insightful comment and perspective. I have seen a lot of advice to makes sure to get someone certified, but there are so many certifications it's a little overwhelming trying to understand what the correct ones to target are. This trainer in particular has CPDT-KA, KPA-CTP, and CGC Evaluator certs, are those "good enough"? I'm a little confused at what point I need a "behaviorist" vs "trainer"?
In my case my dogs are actually kind of discerning: if they detect someone lurking in our private alleyway at night they bark/growl with aggression (good job dogs!), but during the day they bark with excitement and just want to run around and lick whoever is coming in the door. We tried to teach them to sit and be calm before they get addressed by visitors but now what they do is run up the person and sit as fast as they can, vibrating with excitement, and then as soon as they get petted go nuts again lol.
Personally, CPDT as a certifying body has lost all credentials and accountability to me. Last year they made some public statements that were favoring harmful practices and aversive techniques. However, this does not mean that every trainer with their certifications shares those views nor implements them. I know it's a very confusing field to navigate due to the lack of regulation, and I think you are doing great so far! It sounds like this new trainer you have contacted seems mindful of your needs and is competent in her ability to address those needs. However, should you find that this trainer doesn't workout as you had hoped, I recommended searching through the APDT (The Association of Professional Dog Trainers) website, as it has a search engine for finding qualified trainers in your area! Also thanks to Tiffany for her comment here and being so insightful and kind to offer help!!
Sorry my life is crazy at the moment with rehabs. The letters behind the trainers name are good for a trainer. Inhad to look up the last two because I'm not a trainer per say, yes I know how to train dogs, but I'm more focused on behavior modification and they are done completely different. I definitely would give her a try and see how things go. If you don't feel like she is helping, then stop using her and find someone that deals with behavioral issues. Your vet may be able to recommend someone. I hope it all works out. I'm happy to help in any way.
❤️ Tiffany
i think the average dog owner underestimates the reality of being a good pet owner and i can see how dog trainers can get frustrated with dealing with a lot of problem behaviors and owners who might not necessarily want to put in the work it takes to actually fix them (not saying that that is you but it can be a big commitment to work through in most cases and people with jobs, kids, etc might not have the time and resources)
This is true. And it’s the same with vets too. Frustration. There are some trainers who will use fear uncertainty and doubt to sell their service and that happens without question.
I visited a home where the I learned the dog had been having bloody diarrhoea for a week, had scabs all over and hadn’t had water in 24 hours and was just really agitated. And they hadn’t taken the dog to the vet!!! If there was ever a point I would have lost my cool and asked “How did you let it get to this point” it would have been then as it was a truly horrific thing seeing the dog half dead and yet angry. Didn’t even mention any of this inspite of explicit questions on the phone.
So yea, not defending rudeness, but some of these situations are nothing like an accountant fixing financial messes.
I was at the vet yesterday and a family had driven their dog in that was in a similar condition. They left the dog in the car (running, with other family members in it as well) and came in to the vet to ask about an appointment, and when they went out to get the dog it turned out to have died while in the car. It was horrific.
Getting frustrated doesn't give them the right to demoralize and put down people tho... They're supposed to be/act professional. It's literally in the word profession. If the trainer can't talk to a OP like a human being who's doing the right thing by seeking help with them, not only do they have no business being a dog trainer, but i seriously doubt their ability to even do the job they claim they can.
to be fair, there’s two sides to every story and it’s possible that the criticism was delivered fairly. if OP went into the sessions expecting a “solution” it’s possible they werent in a place to be receptive to feedback
I think what's happening is I'm seeing this like a regular person, and some people on this sub are seeing this from the perspective of dog trainers who see rude or customers with unrealistic expectations day in and day out. That's fine and it's helping me get perspective on why they acted like they did.
In both of the cases this happened in an informational call to find out basic details, rates, session lengths, etc. Like I filled out a web form and they called me back. I just described what I said in the OP, my small dogs bark at people outside the house, it's annoying, I'm looking for the right way to handle it, etc. I felt like they immediately started down this path of questioning how I currently handled the dogs, one almost implied that the dogs must have been "mishandled" at some point in their lives (they're older dogs, we've always had them, they haven't always barked but we live on a busier street now and they're not used to the noise).
It felt weirdly hostile. I just ended the calls saying it didn't sound like we were a good fit.
I mean, in a literal sense they are in fact bidding for my business, as I am the one paying and they're the one providing the service.
IMO this language around "the owner needs to be trained" is hostile and unprofessional. I get that may be a nice metaphor for what needs to happen and a fine thing to say inside professional circles, but as a customer, it's totally off putting. Yes of course I need help, that's why I'm reaching out to you. You don't need to rephrase that ask as "I need to be trained". Can you see how that would feel demeaning as someone who is not a professional animal trainer? I don't use that language with customers in my day job.
I'm willing to take the advice and apply it to see results. Of course I am going to need to be an active participant in the process. But these guys didn't let me get that far. They started out with a chip on their shoulder.
Not the case. How you currently handle the dogs will inform the future training plan and, therefore, cost. A dog who wears a shock collar and gets a level 10 shock every time they bark at the mailman will need a different training plan than a dog who gets smacked on the nose, or sprayed with a water bottle, or a dog who gets yelled at, or a dog who gets ignored.
Also, the other comments about the trainer getting you are spot-on. It's not just you making a decision about what owner-trainer team you're trying to form.
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If you as a dog trainer can't tell me the ballpark cost for some standard training sessions, addressing the most cliche problem in the world, I don't know what to tell you. Almost everyone else I've reached out to has this information readily available.
Our trainer had the pricing on the website but required an in person consult before we could sign up for sessions.
They need to know the dogs history to get some idea of the difficulty of the case and if it's even something they can handle.
Lots of questions is normal before taking a person on as a client. Dependingon the issues it can also pretty standard to ask for the dogs to get a medical checkup from a vet before starting training.
It's weird to be cagey about price though, and the implication that the dogs were mishandled and any hostility is a bad sign.
Literally why I, and so many of my colleagues, retired from being trainers to the general public. There are so many books, videos, such an extreme wealth of knowledge into the basics of training a dog, that it would have taken less than five minutes of reading to know that yelling at a dog is not going to correct their barking. My last clients had been giving their highly reactive stress-barking very high-value treats (cooked meat) every time she started barking because “when she is eating she physically can’t bark” and the owner had been doing this for *over a year*. She effectively trained her dog to bark constantly so that she was constantly being rewarded. Just baffling that some folks would just wait that long instead of trying to research and correct the problem. This is a super common thing with veterinary staff and groomers as well. Some of the shit I would see working at a grooming salon was just horrific. Nails grown deep into the paw pads, such severe matting that it was tearing the skin, imbedded collars, etc.
Definitely a lot of people underestimate how much work needs to go into having a well-adjusted, properly socialized, calmly behaved dog.
A major problem is that without training people do not know how to evaluate training advice.
There is a wealth of excellent training advice available for free online, but there is also so much that's so bad it's likely to harm the dog.
Even trying to figure out which professional organizations are legitimate is time consuming. I spent a good chunk of time making a spreadsheet of credentials and credentialing organizations just trying to sort out the alphabet soup I was seeing after authors names.
EDIT: Well the formatting is still looking awful to me, but I'm using a chrome book, so hopefully it looks better on mac windows and android
EDIT2: I can not vouch for any of these, it's just a partial list of what organizations give out what credentials
| Organization | Website | Directory Search Page | Notes | Credentials |
| - | - | - | - | - |
| American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (ACVB) | https://www.dacvb.org/ | https://www.dacvb.org/search/custom.asp | | DACVB |
| Animal Behavior College (ABC) | https://www.animalbehaviorcollege.com/ | https://www.animalbehaviorcollege.com/professional-dog-trainers/ | | ABCDT |
| Animal Behavior Society (ABS) | https://www.animalbehaviorsociety.org/ | https://www.animalbehaviorsociety.org/web/committees-applied-behavior-directory.php | | CAAB, ACAAB |
| Animal Behaviour Training Council (ABTC) | https://abtc.org.uk/ | https://abtc.org.uk/practitioners/ | | ABTC-AAB, ABTC-AT, ABTC-ATI, ABTC-ABT, ABTC-CAB, ABTC-VB |
| Centre of Applied Pet Ethology: Association of Applied Pet Behaviorists and Trainers (COAPE: CAPBT) | https://www.capbt.org/ | https://www.capbt.org/findabehaviourist_world.php | | DipCABT |
| Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers (CCPDT) | https://www.ccpdt.org/ | https://www.ccpdt.org/dog-owners/certified-dog-trainer-directory/ | The CCPDT only controls CPDT-KA, CPDT-KSA, and CBCC-KA. Anyone can use CPDT. | CPDT-KSA, CPDT-KA, CBCC-KA |
| Family Dog Mediation Education Center () | https://www.familydogmediation.com/ | https://www.familydogmediation.com/mediatordirectory/ | | FDM |
| International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC) | https://m.iaabc.org/ | https://m.iaabc.org/consultant/ | | CDBC, SBA, CPBC |
| Karen Pryor Academy for Animal Training & Behavior (KPA) | https://karenpryoracademy.com/ | https://karenpryoracademy.com/find-a-trainer/ | | KPA CTP |
| Northwest School of Canine Studies (NWSCS) | https://www.nwcanine.com/ | | | CCS |
| Pet Professional Accreditation Board (PPAB) | https://www.credentialingboard.com/ | https://www.credentialingboard.com/Professionals | | PCT-A, CTT-A, PCBC-A |
| Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons (RCVS) | https://www.rcvs.org.uk/ | https://findavet.rcvs.org.uk/ | | MRCVS |
| The Academy for Dog Trainers () | https://www.academyfordogtrainers.com/ | https://www.academyfordogtrainers.com/find-a-trainer/ | | CTC |
| University of Washington (UW) | https://www.pce.uw.edu/certificates/applied-animal-behavior | | | UW-AAB |
| Victoria Stilwell Academy (VSA) | https://www.vsdogtrainingacademy.com/ | https://www.vsdogtrainingacademy.com/trainersearch/ | | VSA-CDT |
| Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) | https://apdt.co.uk/ | https://apdt.co.uk/find-a-trainer/ | Not the same as the Association of Professional Dog Trainers (APDT) apdt.com | |
| Academy of Veterinary Behavior Technicians (AVBT) | https://avbt.net/ | https://avbt.net/member-directory | | VTS - Behavior |
| [Obsolete] American College of Veterinary Nutrition (ACVN) | https://acvn.org/ | | Joined the American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (ACVIM) | |
| American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (ACVIM) | https://www.acvim.org/ | https://www.vetspecialists.com/ | | DACVIM (Nutrition) |
This is awesome. I'll copy these. I'm a member at a couple, know of others.
Maybe these are add ons?
Emory University is funding Dr. Greg Berns fMRI work.
Also, IDK if this counts but Companion Animal Psychology, Dr. Zazie Todd.
https://www.companionanimalpsychology.com/2020/07/an-interview-with-dr-patricia-mcconnell.html?m=1
Yeah, absolutely, this is me, we both have jobs and a baby, we are short on time and energy. But I see navigating these limitations as the point of hiring a professional.
the reality is that if these dogs have rehearsed the behaviors for years, training them out of it will basically be a part time job for you to do in your own home, on walks, etc. it’s not like they’re going to solve the issue for you without you having to put in any work despite whatever else you have going on
Great. I never said I thought it would be easy or I didn't plan on doing any work myself. I've actually already tried implementing some clicker training and rewarding the dogs for being calm, as well as trying to desensitize them to the sound of knocking at the door (with some success). But I'm just going off youtube videos and I'm looking for a professional touch.
This is a great example of the attitude I'm talking about in OP. You don't know a single thing about my life and neither did these trainers, but look how the conversation immediately jumps to the implication that this is my fault for not "taking future time limitations into account", when I got the dog 11 years ago.
The attitude of... acknowledging reality?
And yeah we do know about your life, you told us.
> we both have jobs and a baby, we are short on time and energy.
And your dog is at least 11 years old and you're just getting a trainer?
Judgmental trainers exist but I think any trainer would be judging you.
Again with the assumptions. See what I mean?
FYI, the dogs have been trained in the past, but this reactive behavior is somewhat new and IMO not entirely their fault, they're in a new environment and since being here my priorities have been elsewhere. Sorry, that's just life. I obviously care about them and the situation which is why I'm looking to correct the behavior now. I don't think that makes me automatically deserving of judgement.
Because dog training is often less about training dogs and more about training the people who care for the dogs.
If you're yelling at your dog then you're as much of a problem as the dog.
You need to find a trainer who fits you, but if you actually want to give your dog a good life then you need to be open to (constructive) criticism about how you train/interact with your dog.
They want to understand the dog's history, because they need to understand what drives your dog.
Came here to say this lol. Almost allllll of my clients.. it's the people, the dog is easy. If I don't know what the day tonday and the upbringing/previous training (or lack thereof) is, I CAN'T help!
It's totally me with my dogs. Sure, the behaviours predate them living with me, but the ones that persist do because I have not been consistent enough, and I know it.
I worked on all the ones that were an issue for me except one. I haven't worked hard enough on one of them barking and lunging at dogs who start doing it first. I just walk across the street when I see dogs being walked that are known issues in my neighborhood most of the time because I don't want to deal with it, so he doesn't learn.
And I know it's definitely me, because the things I have been consistent about, they learned relatively quickly, even things I was told they'd never to able to learn since they were both 7 when I adopted them.
I just really hate trying to walk them past a dog that's freaking out, so the one learns to be chill about it like the other is. I know I should work on it, but ugh. Which is why he hasn't learned it at all beyond willingly crossing the street with me now instead of trying to drag me to the barker.
I’m open to being contradicted by a real trainer here, but isn’t that the right thing to do? You’re managing reactivity by creating distance from the trigger. By doing this you’re not allowing the dog to reinforce the bad behavior of lunging. You’re keeping your dog and the other dogs safe by keeping them separated. Genuinely asking, since maybe there’s another school of thought I’ve not seen, but why do you think the right thing to do is to allow the dog to go through the full cycle of trigger -> reaction, and trying to train this out of them?
It manages the behaviour but doesn't fix it. What if we can't cross the street, and the other person keeps coming with their dog? What if a leash breaks? What if the other dog doesn't start barking until we're right next to it?
We can get closer now, and as I said, he will cross the street without fighting me as long as we don't get too close. Optimally, I want him to be able to walk away with me even at the last moment as long as he's not actually being attacked.
Feelings aren't facts. When you see a dog that is sooooooooo miserable it's chewing holes in itself, spinning circles to soothe itself, destroying EVERYTHING in a home because it is so mentally under stimulated and the owner just shrugs it off as "but it's MY dog.... other people's dogs are fine in the same situation". Yes, as a trainer we do try to be very understanding *at least I do* but when you're talking to a defensive brick wall and an animal is CLEARLY suffering in front of you, it's sooooo hard to not take a tone. Which is why I now turn down clients. My heart can't take it. Does it make me a wimp for not trying harder? Probably. But after literal decades working with animal shelters/rescues/day to day people, it's hard dude.
Right, but OP clearly doesn't seem like that kind of person (based off their tone of response and general understanding of comments).. obviously feelings aren't facts, but that goes both ways
I feel like one trainer was trying to get at the history/drive but he was doing it in such a weird/rude way I didn't want anything to do with him. I got about 2 sentences into describing the dogs and mentioned my girlfriend had the dogs a few years before we got together (they are old now). He immediately insisted she join the call or we set up another call with her to get the "full story" of the dogs lives. Asking me who exactly filled out the contact form. If she agreed with my bullet points about what we needed. It felt like he was questioning my knowledge of the dogs and my authority to make decisions about them.
Maybe thats a problem he's had with clients before and wants to avoid but to me it felt unprofessional and weirdly accusatory.
I get the accusatory sense, but most trainers are going to want the full history and having the person who owns the dog legally and has known the dog the longest on the call makes sense. And if you are not the legal owner of the dog, I understand why a trainer would prefer to continue the call with the legal guardian present from a purely legal standpoint.
But Like I said - you need to find a trainer that you both vibe with.
However, the intense amount of detail is a good sign for a trainer. Changing the behavior of a reactive dog is less about traditional obedience training and more about creating an environment that is enriching, offers the dog productive outlets for their problematic behaviors, and works to create as fear and stress free environment as possible.
9 times out of 10, your dog's history is going to give us relevant information about the current behavior issues. Dog training starts with getting the humans who will be doing the majority of the training (homework in between sessions with the trainer) on board with what is going to be needed from them to modify the dogs behavior. Then, the next step is meeting all of the dog's needs, both mental and physical. There's a lot that goes into dog behavior and changing it into what we think it should be.
Yes I think it’s also very frustrating when you have SO many dog owners come in saying “my dog is crazy, it’s so bad, you need to fix it” and then you ask “do you take it for walks every day? Do you give it activities, puzzles, and things to do? Do you make sure the dog is experiencing good quality of life” and they respond with “oh well I’m way too busy for all that, can’t you just teach it to X”?
People will say they love their dogs but many more people treat their dogs as ornamental accessories than they are willing to admit.
Agreed. Breeders and shelters often give zero behavioral or training advice to new dog parents. I’m not sure how you’re supposed to know what to do if it’s your first dog. You can go on instinct but that’s probably a bad idea.
The best thing is to get training for you and the dog as soon as it joins the household but most people wait too long and have to work backwards.
I actually had a trainer start to berate me one time and when I explained I was just the dog’s foster, she apologized and was nice as pie. I was kinda thinking “so you’d still be yelling at me if I’d just adopted this dog?”
Everyone starts somewhere. Don’t get discouraged.
Does their way of speech and tone make you feel like you are being demoralised or is the tone simply actually trying to get knowledge on full history? If the former, I would look for a trainer who doesn't go straight to blaming the owner. This doesn't help at all. While of course, it is a main thing.. demoralising the owner won't help the situation. Reminds me of school teachers who go straight to making the student feel stupid, 'why don't you know this simple thing', 'you still haven't learnt it?'. I think acknowledging that there is an issue is already a big thing, and in my experience I already feel like such a failure and I acknowledge the problem hence why I am trying to seek out help.
Damn, that’s not a way to start a session with a client. As a dog trainer I would be asking about the dogs’ triggers, not blaming the owner. Most people who get trainers are at their wits end (especially with reactive dogs) so they need to be encouraged, not attacked. Yes, dog training is 85% training the humans, but there’s no need to be an asshole about it.
And if you be an a****** about it, they're human will say f*** it And now the dog has to continue living and not happy life. Because being reactive sucks for the dog
Ew. That is awful. I'm a dog trainer and my first question is usually "how are you doing? I know this can be really hard."
I'm so sorry to hear that you've had such bad experiences.
Adding to this after reading some of the comments about how dog training is about teaching the humans... yes. It is a customer experience role, therefore customer service, support, and satisfaction is a key part of the industry.
We are dog trainers, we are the professionals, it is not our job to shame our clients, it is our job to create digestible lessons for them to assist their dog. 🐩
The most important part of training is the owner's ability to commit and follow through. I assume trainers are trying to figure out if the owner has the ability to do so and part of that equation is what the owner did to end up where they are at and what is their level of commitment to change it. Dog trainers don't just walk in and make it all better. It is a lot of hard work for the owner and the dog. The trainer can guide and help, but the owner has to want to not suck at training and commit to the process.
As with all professions, there's always snobs. Shaming, arrogant snobs. The minute people use shame on me, I walk. It's a cheap, destructive mechanism used by many to gain dominance over the other. I don't deal with people like that anymore. There's 20 dog trainers right behind this douche. Go to the next one until you find one who can relate to imperfect humans. I don't care how many "bad" dog owners they've encountered. Not your problem. If they can't handle dumb people, they should find a different profession.
You know what, when my current trainer started working with us, I felt a bit offended. He was implying we got to the point we were back then because of my actions and/or lack thereof. I thought there was something wrong with my dog that needed to be fixed but I was the one who needed fixing. I was not paying attention to how far my dog had been allowed to just take control of things and how less initiative came from my end to fix it.
I am still sometimes that owner that does zero homework inbetween the training sessions.
They've seen it all.
You can be offended by their questions. You can think the trainer just needs to fix what is broken. But the truth is, without truly understanding why the dynamics is the way it is (talk about your childhood if you have to, but that is the task of a therapist, in my opinion), no real change is gonna happen.
Some harsh, unpleasant truths is probably the only way out and towards change.
Good luck!
I actually cried on the initial phone consultation when our behaviourist said 'it's probably not your fault', having been so indoctrinated to the idea it probably was my fault. The charity we adopted our rescue dog from have repeatedly been implying I am transmitting my nerves to the dog (before I got this dog I was an extremely relaxed dog owner) — having the behaviourist say that it's probably the other way round and the dog is transmitting her nerves to me just felt like so much more accurate a reflection of the situation. Bedside manner towards both dogs and humans counts for a lot in this profession I think!
I'd take it as a red flag that they don't really understand how their actions are likely to impact the behavior of other creatures.
Our trainer was extremely kind and patient with us.
Did you read the wiki on how to find a qualified trainer? The industry is unregulated. https://www.reddit.com/r/reactivedogs/wiki/findingaqp/
Edit: for sure some good trainers just get caught on a bad day, but there are so many stories about people getting bullied into signing up for awful board and train program and then getting blamed when it fails that I'm pretty sure it's a deliberate strategy at some places
Honestly some dog people suck. I actually don’t really like “dog people” bc some people really project their own baggage and issues onto dogs, and are often really bad with people so they just spend all their time with dogs. I worked an adoption event and I’ve seen a lot of people get mad people don’t go for the senior or disabled dogs and although it’s sad I get it, and it’s better to focus on the rare owner who CAN take that on versus berating the ones who don’t make that choice.
If what I see on social media is an indication (and trust me, I know it's not a fair representation of the whole community) there ARE definitely \*some\* trainers for who human demoralization is a part of the package. Then they can demoralize the dog (I know, that's anthromorphizing, but you know what I mean). Unfortunately, animal training does attract/bring out the side of some people who want just want a power trip.
Then, of course there is this other huge subset who are fantastic an really fun for the the dogs, but TERRIBLE with people and tend to be so hard and judgey on them. And the burned out and frustrated mentioned by other posters is real.
Whatever their reasons, if you felt like s\*\*t talking to them on a consult, what are the chances you're going to love their advice and really follow through with it? Yeah. Find other options.
The dog industry tends to attract people who really like animals, and don't like people. To make it worse, instead of someone explaining that dog industry is customer service with dogs as co-workers, people are put under the illusion That they just have to work with the dogs, and the people can suck it.
If that ain't the truth. You have way more trainers that either hate dogs or hate people than just... normal trainers. If a trainer is soo willing to immediately shit on a client then it's not a good sign.
Worked w a trainer that honestly really fucking hated people, just liked dogs, miserable experience! She sucked honestly! Unrealistically wanted me to be hand on foot enslaved for my dog 24/7 in a way that didn't benefit her whatsoever and just wound her up n made her feel worse. Also saw her as her breed exclusively and not the individual + straight up told me to my face "I don't think that happened :)" after I told her about the dog attacks we've suffered, she thought because my golden retriever still liked dogs that she wasn't Also scared and stressed by them as if feelings can't be complicated 🙄
A good relationship between dog and owner is good for both Dog and Owner, it shouldn't be unequally balanced and both should be considered, a trainer should be happy to work with both to get there
Maybe some trainers are as reactive as the dogs they are trying to train? :)
I’ve had three dogs over many years. Each had basic obedience, my most recent reactive teen pup had a private consult, basic training and we are working on a reactive class. The only trainer I felt did more harm than good was one that came across as judgy and superior. The other trainers have been friendly and helpful.
They will have to get a good history on the dog and the issues and often the person who has owned the dog longer is more “in charge” of the dog, so it’s reasonable that a trainer want to talk to your wife as well…and any training is going have to be consistent within the family. The trainer should be professional, friendly though. Also, don’t listen if they are suggesting anything you or your wife feels is hurtful, dangerous or intimidating to your pup.
That doesn’t sound like you were treated with kindness and compassion, which is important when someone is vulnerable enough to ask for help. I think “helping” professions have a percentage of folks who are attracted to the role because they feel better than those they’re supporting. Dealing with other people’s problems is a lot easier than dealing with your own (as a social worker who avoided my problems for so long). Good thing you knew it wouldn’t be the right fit for your family. I hope you find the right approach for your dogs!
Changing behavior is hard. Dog training is changing or trying to change, a minimum of two sets of behaviors, plus or minus extra dogs and people. Barking that's been reinforced (really hard behavior) long term in a house with kids, is going to be challenging. Yelling will not lower the emotion intensity in your home, lessening barking. (Yelling is also very rewarding for humans, like barking is for dogs.) So it's possible that the trainer was getting as much information as they could to see if there's a chance for success. They want to succeed, which means happy dogs and happy owners. But, trainers have a professional reputation to think of with social media. One dogpile can ruin them.
I'm so sorry you've had this experience and it's beyond frustrating! You're absolutely right, you called an expert for help, not to be belittled and put down! There is a way to educate people on proper techniques and training to help with unwanted behaviors, and what you described definitely isn't it. You can educate people and offer them the professional service that they're paying you for without talking down to them and being outright rude. I want to say thank you for taking the big leap into finding a trainer and asking for help. Most don't, And I feel like what you've described of your experience is exactly why they don't. Furthermore, I would like to say that good trainers do NOT do this and finding the right one for yours and your dogs needs will probably be a journey. I feel like finding the right trainer is like finding a good doctor. It's gonna take time, trial and error. I know that sucks, and I hate that it is this way, but nowadays with every Tom, Dick and Harry thinking/claiming they are professionals when they absolutely are not, makes it SOOOO much harder. And as I've said the real professionals will not judge you and chastise you.
I actually keep getting recommended them but have read some funny things online about them. Apparently they use spray bottles? They feel very "scammy" to me, honestly I don't trust a 100% "service guarantee". It's a dog, there is no way it can be 100%.
It sounds like you found bad trainers. Every good trainer I've interacted with is very good about explaining that dog training is about consistency and teaching both you the owner as well as the dog.
I've seen bad trainers that just get off on talking down to their clients. That's bad business, and they usually aren't very good trainers
Good trainers always start with empathy because no one will ever want to hire a trainer if all they start out with is the wrong tools/methods you’ve been using. It’s the main reason people don’t hire a trainer. I find some trainers to be wildly bad at communicating as well. I find that most need to separate wanting to help the dogs with their beliefs. Some are just burnt out by seeing and dealing with breeding operations and kennel work as well. It’s hard to be in the industry and not see humans as the evildoers when the viscous cycle is funded by uneducated people most of the time. Education and helping dogs should be their goal. There are also different kinds of trainers so I would keep looking for one that fits you. I would always start out with thanking people for hiring a trainer at all because they could have always waited to address the problem for longer. They decided it was worth taking care of now and that’s all that should matter. Could they have prevented some of the problems earlier? Yes. Does that matter now? No. Educate for their future puppers and they will do better 😁
Well, if you had a child and then decided to not go to a doctor, fed them the wrong diet, treated them wrong, etc., and then went to a doctor for the first time after creating a ton of problems, how do you think that doctor would feel? Its the same for us dog trainers. People get dogs without having a plan, without learning anything, without lining up a trainer or socialization classes, without DOING ANYTHING. You better bet that if you call me, I am going to tell you that you created these problems, because thats where we have to start, YOUR behavior.
My second dog became reactive due to a puppy socialization class where the trainer insisted on off-leash free play. The class was put on by a reputable training organization at the local humane society…but sure, I created the problem with my behavior of trusting a trainer.
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It sounds like you think that trainers who insists upon off-leash play in a puppy class of about 10 dogs ranging from 8-60 lbs has no responsibility when a small dog get tumbled and tackled and becomes reactive. Owners should get trainers, trust trainers and take dogs to puppy class, but they should always know better than trainer, if given bad advice.
Nice to be able to judge, but take no responsibility.
I’m so happy my current dog trainers are focused on responsibly helping dogs and owners instead of judging.
Because the point at which you learn what you should do when you get a dog is BEFORE you get a dog. It's frustrating to dog trainers because people take on a role as caretaker of an animal's wellbeing without doing the most basic bit of research on what that entails, when we live in an age where information is unfathomably easy to access. We consider you to have a moral duty to have tried to learn how to look after a dog before you commit to getting a dog.
Trainers should be 100% empathetic if you tell them that you have tried stuff and it hasn't worked. Just as with everything else in the age of the internet, there are many dickheads telling you wrong stuff and spreading misinformation, or much more common; horribly outdated information not backed by current scientific understanding. A big part of the reason they are asking you questions is to ascertain if this is the case.
If you tell me you tried to be informed but were just told the wrong things, that's totally cool. If you tried the [typically] correct things and your dog was just unreceptive, that's also cool. If you tell me you couldn't be bothered to find out what to do before you took on your duty of care, then I reserve the right to be a bit frustrated at your ignorance.
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I commend you for taking the first step in looking for a trainer. Many don’t. The trainers are probably tired of dealing with owners who won’t put in the work and just want a magically trained dog. Not saying that’s you at all but that might explain the preemptive attitude. I hope you find the right trainer for you and your pup.
Thanks. I talked to another trainer today who: * Opened the conversation with encouragement that this situation sounded manageable and in her experience I should be able to quickly see *some* level of improvement (totally reasonable expectation to set, fwiw I didn't expect a miracle). * Straightforward plans and rates shared up front. * Asked what I had tried so far and said that I had the right idea! But apparently clicker training + positive reinforcement can be tricky to implement for behavioral issues. * Didn't ask for a full psychological workup on the dog's entire lives. I even asked if she needed this and she said we could talk about that later in person. Literally exactly what I was looking for. Felt like she totally understood where I was coming from and gave me credit for wanting to make a change and trying to fix it myself.
You got those responses because you co tasted a trainer and not a certified behaviorist. I am an ACAAB (Associate Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist) and the person that gets brought in when reactivity is present. Most trainers give horrible advice with reactive dogs and make things worse. I do ask questions but I need to know all the whens, why's, and how's in order to come up with a plan that fits your dog. Your dogs barking doesn't necessarily make them reactive. Most dogs bark in those situations. All of mine do at the same time for what feels like forever when they see a car come down our driveway. They will bark if they hear a car driving down my neighbors lane. It's annoying and can be managed, but as annoying as it is I prefer they bark to deter random people from coming on the property. Now if there is aggression with the barking that's reactivity. This new person sounds better than the last ones you talked to but ask for credentials and her experience. Don't waste your money on someone that claims to be behaviorist or behavioral trainer without the proof and experience behind them. I've seen people spend thousands of dollars on trainers that did nothing but waste the owners time and money. Most pet owners aren't professional trainers and do the best they can. There are plenty of days I slack with training and consistency. Life sometimes gets in the way and to be belittle for that is absurd, especially when your asking for help. I wish you the best and if I can be of any help please reach out. Tiffany, M.S. , ACAAB
Thanks for the insightful comment and perspective. I have seen a lot of advice to makes sure to get someone certified, but there are so many certifications it's a little overwhelming trying to understand what the correct ones to target are. This trainer in particular has CPDT-KA, KPA-CTP, and CGC Evaluator certs, are those "good enough"? I'm a little confused at what point I need a "behaviorist" vs "trainer"? In my case my dogs are actually kind of discerning: if they detect someone lurking in our private alleyway at night they bark/growl with aggression (good job dogs!), but during the day they bark with excitement and just want to run around and lick whoever is coming in the door. We tried to teach them to sit and be calm before they get addressed by visitors but now what they do is run up the person and sit as fast as they can, vibrating with excitement, and then as soon as they get petted go nuts again lol.
Personally, CPDT as a certifying body has lost all credentials and accountability to me. Last year they made some public statements that were favoring harmful practices and aversive techniques. However, this does not mean that every trainer with their certifications shares those views nor implements them. I know it's a very confusing field to navigate due to the lack of regulation, and I think you are doing great so far! It sounds like this new trainer you have contacted seems mindful of your needs and is competent in her ability to address those needs. However, should you find that this trainer doesn't workout as you had hoped, I recommended searching through the APDT (The Association of Professional Dog Trainers) website, as it has a search engine for finding qualified trainers in your area! Also thanks to Tiffany for her comment here and being so insightful and kind to offer help!!
Sorry my life is crazy at the moment with rehabs. The letters behind the trainers name are good for a trainer. Inhad to look up the last two because I'm not a trainer per say, yes I know how to train dogs, but I'm more focused on behavior modification and they are done completely different. I definitely would give her a try and see how things go. If you don't feel like she is helping, then stop using her and find someone that deals with behavioral issues. Your vet may be able to recommend someone. I hope it all works out. I'm happy to help in any way. ❤️ Tiffany
i think the average dog owner underestimates the reality of being a good pet owner and i can see how dog trainers can get frustrated with dealing with a lot of problem behaviors and owners who might not necessarily want to put in the work it takes to actually fix them (not saying that that is you but it can be a big commitment to work through in most cases and people with jobs, kids, etc might not have the time and resources)
This is true. And it’s the same with vets too. Frustration. There are some trainers who will use fear uncertainty and doubt to sell their service and that happens without question. I visited a home where the I learned the dog had been having bloody diarrhoea for a week, had scabs all over and hadn’t had water in 24 hours and was just really agitated. And they hadn’t taken the dog to the vet!!! If there was ever a point I would have lost my cool and asked “How did you let it get to this point” it would have been then as it was a truly horrific thing seeing the dog half dead and yet angry. Didn’t even mention any of this inspite of explicit questions on the phone. So yea, not defending rudeness, but some of these situations are nothing like an accountant fixing financial messes.
I was at the vet yesterday and a family had driven their dog in that was in a similar condition. They left the dog in the car (running, with other family members in it as well) and came in to the vet to ask about an appointment, and when they went out to get the dog it turned out to have died while in the car. It was horrific.
Getting frustrated doesn't give them the right to demoralize and put down people tho... They're supposed to be/act professional. It's literally in the word profession. If the trainer can't talk to a OP like a human being who's doing the right thing by seeking help with them, not only do they have no business being a dog trainer, but i seriously doubt their ability to even do the job they claim they can.
to be fair, there’s two sides to every story and it’s possible that the criticism was delivered fairly. if OP went into the sessions expecting a “solution” it’s possible they werent in a place to be receptive to feedback
You're right, but reading OP's replies and their general demeanor makes it pretty clear that that's not the case here
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I think what's happening is I'm seeing this like a regular person, and some people on this sub are seeing this from the perspective of dog trainers who see rude or customers with unrealistic expectations day in and day out. That's fine and it's helping me get perspective on why they acted like they did.
In both of the cases this happened in an informational call to find out basic details, rates, session lengths, etc. Like I filled out a web form and they called me back. I just described what I said in the OP, my small dogs bark at people outside the house, it's annoying, I'm looking for the right way to handle it, etc. I felt like they immediately started down this path of questioning how I currently handled the dogs, one almost implied that the dogs must have been "mishandled" at some point in their lives (they're older dogs, we've always had them, they haven't always barked but we live on a busier street now and they're not used to the noise). It felt weirdly hostile. I just ended the calls saying it didn't sound like we were a good fit.
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Yes it is, but not before I find out if the trainer is even in my budget or not.
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I mean, in a literal sense they are in fact bidding for my business, as I am the one paying and they're the one providing the service. IMO this language around "the owner needs to be trained" is hostile and unprofessional. I get that may be a nice metaphor for what needs to happen and a fine thing to say inside professional circles, but as a customer, it's totally off putting. Yes of course I need help, that's why I'm reaching out to you. You don't need to rephrase that ask as "I need to be trained". Can you see how that would feel demeaning as someone who is not a professional animal trainer? I don't use that language with customers in my day job. I'm willing to take the advice and apply it to see results. Of course I am going to need to be an active participant in the process. But these guys didn't let me get that far. They started out with a chip on their shoulder.
Not the case. How you currently handle the dogs will inform the future training plan and, therefore, cost. A dog who wears a shock collar and gets a level 10 shock every time they bark at the mailman will need a different training plan than a dog who gets smacked on the nose, or sprayed with a water bottle, or a dog who gets yelled at, or a dog who gets ignored. Also, the other comments about the trainer getting you are spot-on. It's not just you making a decision about what owner-trainer team you're trying to form.
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If you as a dog trainer can't tell me the ballpark cost for some standard training sessions, addressing the most cliche problem in the world, I don't know what to tell you. Almost everyone else I've reached out to has this information readily available.
Our trainer had the pricing on the website but required an in person consult before we could sign up for sessions. They need to know the dogs history to get some idea of the difficulty of the case and if it's even something they can handle. Lots of questions is normal before taking a person on as a client. Dependingon the issues it can also pretty standard to ask for the dogs to get a medical checkup from a vet before starting training. It's weird to be cagey about price though, and the implication that the dogs were mishandled and any hostility is a bad sign.
Literally why I, and so many of my colleagues, retired from being trainers to the general public. There are so many books, videos, such an extreme wealth of knowledge into the basics of training a dog, that it would have taken less than five minutes of reading to know that yelling at a dog is not going to correct their barking. My last clients had been giving their highly reactive stress-barking very high-value treats (cooked meat) every time she started barking because “when she is eating she physically can’t bark” and the owner had been doing this for *over a year*. She effectively trained her dog to bark constantly so that she was constantly being rewarded. Just baffling that some folks would just wait that long instead of trying to research and correct the problem. This is a super common thing with veterinary staff and groomers as well. Some of the shit I would see working at a grooming salon was just horrific. Nails grown deep into the paw pads, such severe matting that it was tearing the skin, imbedded collars, etc. Definitely a lot of people underestimate how much work needs to go into having a well-adjusted, properly socialized, calmly behaved dog.
A major problem is that without training people do not know how to evaluate training advice. There is a wealth of excellent training advice available for free online, but there is also so much that's so bad it's likely to harm the dog. Even trying to figure out which professional organizations are legitimate is time consuming. I spent a good chunk of time making a spreadsheet of credentials and credentialing organizations just trying to sort out the alphabet soup I was seeing after authors names.
That spreadsheet interests me.😃
EDIT: Well the formatting is still looking awful to me, but I'm using a chrome book, so hopefully it looks better on mac windows and android EDIT2: I can not vouch for any of these, it's just a partial list of what organizations give out what credentials | Organization | Website | Directory Search Page | Notes | Credentials | | - | - | - | - | - | | American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (ACVB) | https://www.dacvb.org/ | https://www.dacvb.org/search/custom.asp | | DACVB | | Animal Behavior College (ABC) | https://www.animalbehaviorcollege.com/ | https://www.animalbehaviorcollege.com/professional-dog-trainers/ | | ABCDT | | Animal Behavior Society (ABS) | https://www.animalbehaviorsociety.org/ | https://www.animalbehaviorsociety.org/web/committees-applied-behavior-directory.php | | CAAB, ACAAB | | Animal Behaviour Training Council (ABTC) | https://abtc.org.uk/ | https://abtc.org.uk/practitioners/ | | ABTC-AAB, ABTC-AT, ABTC-ATI, ABTC-ABT, ABTC-CAB, ABTC-VB | | Centre of Applied Pet Ethology: Association of Applied Pet Behaviorists and Trainers (COAPE: CAPBT) | https://www.capbt.org/ | https://www.capbt.org/findabehaviourist_world.php | | DipCABT | | Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers (CCPDT) | https://www.ccpdt.org/ | https://www.ccpdt.org/dog-owners/certified-dog-trainer-directory/ | The CCPDT only controls CPDT-KA, CPDT-KSA, and CBCC-KA. Anyone can use CPDT. | CPDT-KSA, CPDT-KA, CBCC-KA | | Family Dog Mediation Education Center () | https://www.familydogmediation.com/ | https://www.familydogmediation.com/mediatordirectory/ | | FDM | | International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC) | https://m.iaabc.org/ | https://m.iaabc.org/consultant/ | | CDBC, SBA, CPBC | | Karen Pryor Academy for Animal Training & Behavior (KPA) | https://karenpryoracademy.com/ | https://karenpryoracademy.com/find-a-trainer/ | | KPA CTP | | Northwest School of Canine Studies (NWSCS) | https://www.nwcanine.com/ | | | CCS | | Pet Professional Accreditation Board (PPAB) | https://www.credentialingboard.com/ | https://www.credentialingboard.com/Professionals | | PCT-A, CTT-A, PCBC-A | | Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons (RCVS) | https://www.rcvs.org.uk/ | https://findavet.rcvs.org.uk/ | | MRCVS | | The Academy for Dog Trainers () | https://www.academyfordogtrainers.com/ | https://www.academyfordogtrainers.com/find-a-trainer/ | | CTC | | University of Washington (UW) | https://www.pce.uw.edu/certificates/applied-animal-behavior | | | UW-AAB | | Victoria Stilwell Academy (VSA) | https://www.vsdogtrainingacademy.com/ | https://www.vsdogtrainingacademy.com/trainersearch/ | | VSA-CDT | | Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) | https://apdt.co.uk/ | https://apdt.co.uk/find-a-trainer/ | Not the same as the Association of Professional Dog Trainers (APDT) apdt.com | | | Academy of Veterinary Behavior Technicians (AVBT) | https://avbt.net/ | https://avbt.net/member-directory | | VTS - Behavior | | [Obsolete] American College of Veterinary Nutrition (ACVN) | https://acvn.org/ | | Joined the American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (ACVIM) | | | American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (ACVIM) | https://www.acvim.org/ | https://www.vetspecialists.com/ | | DACVIM (Nutrition) |
This is awesome. I'll copy these. I'm a member at a couple, know of others. Maybe these are add ons? Emory University is funding Dr. Greg Berns fMRI work. Also, IDK if this counts but Companion Animal Psychology, Dr. Zazie Todd. https://www.companionanimalpsychology.com/2020/07/an-interview-with-dr-patricia-mcconnell.html?m=1
Yeah, absolutely, this is me, we both have jobs and a baby, we are short on time and energy. But I see navigating these limitations as the point of hiring a professional.
the reality is that if these dogs have rehearsed the behaviors for years, training them out of it will basically be a part time job for you to do in your own home, on walks, etc. it’s not like they’re going to solve the issue for you without you having to put in any work despite whatever else you have going on
Great. I never said I thought it would be easy or I didn't plan on doing any work myself. I've actually already tried implementing some clicker training and rewarding the dogs for being calm, as well as trying to desensitize them to the sound of knocking at the door (with some success). But I'm just going off youtube videos and I'm looking for a professional touch.
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This is a great example of the attitude I'm talking about in OP. You don't know a single thing about my life and neither did these trainers, but look how the conversation immediately jumps to the implication that this is my fault for not "taking future time limitations into account", when I got the dog 11 years ago.
The attitude of... acknowledging reality? And yeah we do know about your life, you told us. > we both have jobs and a baby, we are short on time and energy. And your dog is at least 11 years old and you're just getting a trainer? Judgmental trainers exist but I think any trainer would be judging you.
Again with the assumptions. See what I mean? FYI, the dogs have been trained in the past, but this reactive behavior is somewhat new and IMO not entirely their fault, they're in a new environment and since being here my priorities have been elsewhere. Sorry, that's just life. I obviously care about them and the situation which is why I'm looking to correct the behavior now. I don't think that makes me automatically deserving of judgement.
Where did I assume anything?
Because dog training is often less about training dogs and more about training the people who care for the dogs. If you're yelling at your dog then you're as much of a problem as the dog. You need to find a trainer who fits you, but if you actually want to give your dog a good life then you need to be open to (constructive) criticism about how you train/interact with your dog. They want to understand the dog's history, because they need to understand what drives your dog.
Came here to say this lol. Almost allllll of my clients.. it's the people, the dog is easy. If I don't know what the day tonday and the upbringing/previous training (or lack thereof) is, I CAN'T help!
It's totally me with my dogs. Sure, the behaviours predate them living with me, but the ones that persist do because I have not been consistent enough, and I know it. I worked on all the ones that were an issue for me except one. I haven't worked hard enough on one of them barking and lunging at dogs who start doing it first. I just walk across the street when I see dogs being walked that are known issues in my neighborhood most of the time because I don't want to deal with it, so he doesn't learn. And I know it's definitely me, because the things I have been consistent about, they learned relatively quickly, even things I was told they'd never to able to learn since they were both 7 when I adopted them. I just really hate trying to walk them past a dog that's freaking out, so the one learns to be chill about it like the other is. I know I should work on it, but ugh. Which is why he hasn't learned it at all beyond willingly crossing the street with me now instead of trying to drag me to the barker.
I’m open to being contradicted by a real trainer here, but isn’t that the right thing to do? You’re managing reactivity by creating distance from the trigger. By doing this you’re not allowing the dog to reinforce the bad behavior of lunging. You’re keeping your dog and the other dogs safe by keeping them separated. Genuinely asking, since maybe there’s another school of thought I’ve not seen, but why do you think the right thing to do is to allow the dog to go through the full cycle of trigger -> reaction, and trying to train this out of them?
It manages the behaviour but doesn't fix it. What if we can't cross the street, and the other person keeps coming with their dog? What if a leash breaks? What if the other dog doesn't start barking until we're right next to it? We can get closer now, and as I said, he will cross the street without fighting me as long as we don't get too close. Optimally, I want him to be able to walk away with me even at the last moment as long as he's not actually being attacked.
You can't train a dog without knowing it's entire history?
Yeah.. that doesn't make it ok to make the owner feel like a piece of shit
Feelings aren't facts. When you see a dog that is sooooooooo miserable it's chewing holes in itself, spinning circles to soothe itself, destroying EVERYTHING in a home because it is so mentally under stimulated and the owner just shrugs it off as "but it's MY dog.... other people's dogs are fine in the same situation". Yes, as a trainer we do try to be very understanding *at least I do* but when you're talking to a defensive brick wall and an animal is CLEARLY suffering in front of you, it's sooooo hard to not take a tone. Which is why I now turn down clients. My heart can't take it. Does it make me a wimp for not trying harder? Probably. But after literal decades working with animal shelters/rescues/day to day people, it's hard dude.
Right, but OP clearly doesn't seem like that kind of person (based off their tone of response and general understanding of comments).. obviously feelings aren't facts, but that goes both ways
And if you do talk to potential clients like that it really isn't a good sales strategy. They are hardly likely to hire you.
I feel like one trainer was trying to get at the history/drive but he was doing it in such a weird/rude way I didn't want anything to do with him. I got about 2 sentences into describing the dogs and mentioned my girlfriend had the dogs a few years before we got together (they are old now). He immediately insisted she join the call or we set up another call with her to get the "full story" of the dogs lives. Asking me who exactly filled out the contact form. If she agreed with my bullet points about what we needed. It felt like he was questioning my knowledge of the dogs and my authority to make decisions about them. Maybe thats a problem he's had with clients before and wants to avoid but to me it felt unprofessional and weirdly accusatory.
I get the accusatory sense, but most trainers are going to want the full history and having the person who owns the dog legally and has known the dog the longest on the call makes sense. And if you are not the legal owner of the dog, I understand why a trainer would prefer to continue the call with the legal guardian present from a purely legal standpoint. But Like I said - you need to find a trainer that you both vibe with. However, the intense amount of detail is a good sign for a trainer. Changing the behavior of a reactive dog is less about traditional obedience training and more about creating an environment that is enriching, offers the dog productive outlets for their problematic behaviors, and works to create as fear and stress free environment as possible.
9 times out of 10, your dog's history is going to give us relevant information about the current behavior issues. Dog training starts with getting the humans who will be doing the majority of the training (homework in between sessions with the trainer) on board with what is going to be needed from them to modify the dogs behavior. Then, the next step is meeting all of the dog's needs, both mental and physical. There's a lot that goes into dog behavior and changing it into what we think it should be.
Yes I think it’s also very frustrating when you have SO many dog owners come in saying “my dog is crazy, it’s so bad, you need to fix it” and then you ask “do you take it for walks every day? Do you give it activities, puzzles, and things to do? Do you make sure the dog is experiencing good quality of life” and they respond with “oh well I’m way too busy for all that, can’t you just teach it to X”? People will say they love their dogs but many more people treat their dogs as ornamental accessories than they are willing to admit.
Agreed. Breeders and shelters often give zero behavioral or training advice to new dog parents. I’m not sure how you’re supposed to know what to do if it’s your first dog. You can go on instinct but that’s probably a bad idea. The best thing is to get training for you and the dog as soon as it joins the household but most people wait too long and have to work backwards. I actually had a trainer start to berate me one time and when I explained I was just the dog’s foster, she apologized and was nice as pie. I was kinda thinking “so you’d still be yelling at me if I’d just adopted this dog?” Everyone starts somewhere. Don’t get discouraged.
Yeah we really need to normalize taking pet ownership more seriously and doing more research / education about how to co-habitate with a dog
Does their way of speech and tone make you feel like you are being demoralised or is the tone simply actually trying to get knowledge on full history? If the former, I would look for a trainer who doesn't go straight to blaming the owner. This doesn't help at all. While of course, it is a main thing.. demoralising the owner won't help the situation. Reminds me of school teachers who go straight to making the student feel stupid, 'why don't you know this simple thing', 'you still haven't learnt it?'. I think acknowledging that there is an issue is already a big thing, and in my experience I already feel like such a failure and I acknowledge the problem hence why I am trying to seek out help.
Damn, that’s not a way to start a session with a client. As a dog trainer I would be asking about the dogs’ triggers, not blaming the owner. Most people who get trainers are at their wits end (especially with reactive dogs) so they need to be encouraged, not attacked. Yes, dog training is 85% training the humans, but there’s no need to be an asshole about it.
And if you be an a****** about it, they're human will say f*** it And now the dog has to continue living and not happy life. Because being reactive sucks for the dog
Ew. That is awful. I'm a dog trainer and my first question is usually "how are you doing? I know this can be really hard." I'm so sorry to hear that you've had such bad experiences. Adding to this after reading some of the comments about how dog training is about teaching the humans... yes. It is a customer experience role, therefore customer service, support, and satisfaction is a key part of the industry. We are dog trainers, we are the professionals, it is not our job to shame our clients, it is our job to create digestible lessons for them to assist their dog. 🐩
The most important part of training is the owner's ability to commit and follow through. I assume trainers are trying to figure out if the owner has the ability to do so and part of that equation is what the owner did to end up where they are at and what is their level of commitment to change it. Dog trainers don't just walk in and make it all better. It is a lot of hard work for the owner and the dog. The trainer can guide and help, but the owner has to want to not suck at training and commit to the process.
As with all professions, there's always snobs. Shaming, arrogant snobs. The minute people use shame on me, I walk. It's a cheap, destructive mechanism used by many to gain dominance over the other. I don't deal with people like that anymore. There's 20 dog trainers right behind this douche. Go to the next one until you find one who can relate to imperfect humans. I don't care how many "bad" dog owners they've encountered. Not your problem. If they can't handle dumb people, they should find a different profession.
You know what, when my current trainer started working with us, I felt a bit offended. He was implying we got to the point we were back then because of my actions and/or lack thereof. I thought there was something wrong with my dog that needed to be fixed but I was the one who needed fixing. I was not paying attention to how far my dog had been allowed to just take control of things and how less initiative came from my end to fix it. I am still sometimes that owner that does zero homework inbetween the training sessions. They've seen it all. You can be offended by their questions. You can think the trainer just needs to fix what is broken. But the truth is, without truly understanding why the dynamics is the way it is (talk about your childhood if you have to, but that is the task of a therapist, in my opinion), no real change is gonna happen. Some harsh, unpleasant truths is probably the only way out and towards change. Good luck!
I actually cried on the initial phone consultation when our behaviourist said 'it's probably not your fault', having been so indoctrinated to the idea it probably was my fault. The charity we adopted our rescue dog from have repeatedly been implying I am transmitting my nerves to the dog (before I got this dog I was an extremely relaxed dog owner) — having the behaviourist say that it's probably the other way round and the dog is transmitting her nerves to me just felt like so much more accurate a reflection of the situation. Bedside manner towards both dogs and humans counts for a lot in this profession I think!
I'd take it as a red flag that they don't really understand how their actions are likely to impact the behavior of other creatures. Our trainer was extremely kind and patient with us. Did you read the wiki on how to find a qualified trainer? The industry is unregulated. https://www.reddit.com/r/reactivedogs/wiki/findingaqp/ Edit: for sure some good trainers just get caught on a bad day, but there are so many stories about people getting bullied into signing up for awful board and train program and then getting blamed when it fails that I'm pretty sure it's a deliberate strategy at some places
Honestly some dog people suck. I actually don’t really like “dog people” bc some people really project their own baggage and issues onto dogs, and are often really bad with people so they just spend all their time with dogs. I worked an adoption event and I’ve seen a lot of people get mad people don’t go for the senior or disabled dogs and although it’s sad I get it, and it’s better to focus on the rare owner who CAN take that on versus berating the ones who don’t make that choice.
If what I see on social media is an indication (and trust me, I know it's not a fair representation of the whole community) there ARE definitely \*some\* trainers for who human demoralization is a part of the package. Then they can demoralize the dog (I know, that's anthromorphizing, but you know what I mean). Unfortunately, animal training does attract/bring out the side of some people who want just want a power trip. Then, of course there is this other huge subset who are fantastic an really fun for the the dogs, but TERRIBLE with people and tend to be so hard and judgey on them. And the burned out and frustrated mentioned by other posters is real. Whatever their reasons, if you felt like s\*\*t talking to them on a consult, what are the chances you're going to love their advice and really follow through with it? Yeah. Find other options.
The dog industry tends to attract people who really like animals, and don't like people. To make it worse, instead of someone explaining that dog industry is customer service with dogs as co-workers, people are put under the illusion That they just have to work with the dogs, and the people can suck it.
If that ain't the truth. You have way more trainers that either hate dogs or hate people than just... normal trainers. If a trainer is soo willing to immediately shit on a client then it's not a good sign. Worked w a trainer that honestly really fucking hated people, just liked dogs, miserable experience! She sucked honestly! Unrealistically wanted me to be hand on foot enslaved for my dog 24/7 in a way that didn't benefit her whatsoever and just wound her up n made her feel worse. Also saw her as her breed exclusively and not the individual + straight up told me to my face "I don't think that happened :)" after I told her about the dog attacks we've suffered, she thought because my golden retriever still liked dogs that she wasn't Also scared and stressed by them as if feelings can't be complicated 🙄 A good relationship between dog and owner is good for both Dog and Owner, it shouldn't be unequally balanced and both should be considered, a trainer should be happy to work with both to get there
Maybe some trainers are as reactive as the dogs they are trying to train? :) I’ve had three dogs over many years. Each had basic obedience, my most recent reactive teen pup had a private consult, basic training and we are working on a reactive class. The only trainer I felt did more harm than good was one that came across as judgy and superior. The other trainers have been friendly and helpful. They will have to get a good history on the dog and the issues and often the person who has owned the dog longer is more “in charge” of the dog, so it’s reasonable that a trainer want to talk to your wife as well…and any training is going have to be consistent within the family. The trainer should be professional, friendly though. Also, don’t listen if they are suggesting anything you or your wife feels is hurtful, dangerous or intimidating to your pup.
That doesn’t sound like you were treated with kindness and compassion, which is important when someone is vulnerable enough to ask for help. I think “helping” professions have a percentage of folks who are attracted to the role because they feel better than those they’re supporting. Dealing with other people’s problems is a lot easier than dealing with your own (as a social worker who avoided my problems for so long). Good thing you knew it wouldn’t be the right fit for your family. I hope you find the right approach for your dogs!
Changing behavior is hard. Dog training is changing or trying to change, a minimum of two sets of behaviors, plus or minus extra dogs and people. Barking that's been reinforced (really hard behavior) long term in a house with kids, is going to be challenging. Yelling will not lower the emotion intensity in your home, lessening barking. (Yelling is also very rewarding for humans, like barking is for dogs.) So it's possible that the trainer was getting as much information as they could to see if there's a chance for success. They want to succeed, which means happy dogs and happy owners. But, trainers have a professional reputation to think of with social media. One dogpile can ruin them.
I'm so sorry you've had this experience and it's beyond frustrating! You're absolutely right, you called an expert for help, not to be belittled and put down! There is a way to educate people on proper techniques and training to help with unwanted behaviors, and what you described definitely isn't it. You can educate people and offer them the professional service that they're paying you for without talking down to them and being outright rude. I want to say thank you for taking the big leap into finding a trainer and asking for help. Most don't, And I feel like what you've described of your experience is exactly why they don't. Furthermore, I would like to say that good trainers do NOT do this and finding the right one for yours and your dogs needs will probably be a journey. I feel like finding the right trainer is like finding a good doctor. It's gonna take time, trial and error. I know that sucks, and I hate that it is this way, but nowadays with every Tom, Dick and Harry thinking/claiming they are professionals when they absolutely are not, makes it SOOOO much harder. And as I've said the real professionals will not judge you and chastise you.
I hope I didn't use bark buster for dog training 🥴☹️😡😡
I actually keep getting recommended them but have read some funny things online about them. Apparently they use spray bottles? They feel very "scammy" to me, honestly I don't trust a 100% "service guarantee". It's a dog, there is no way it can be 100%.
I'm sorry i meant "you"
It sounds like you found bad trainers. Every good trainer I've interacted with is very good about explaining that dog training is about consistency and teaching both you the owner as well as the dog. I've seen bad trainers that just get off on talking down to their clients. That's bad business, and they usually aren't very good trainers
Good trainers always start with empathy because no one will ever want to hire a trainer if all they start out with is the wrong tools/methods you’ve been using. It’s the main reason people don’t hire a trainer. I find some trainers to be wildly bad at communicating as well. I find that most need to separate wanting to help the dogs with their beliefs. Some are just burnt out by seeing and dealing with breeding operations and kennel work as well. It’s hard to be in the industry and not see humans as the evildoers when the viscous cycle is funded by uneducated people most of the time. Education and helping dogs should be their goal. There are also different kinds of trainers so I would keep looking for one that fits you. I would always start out with thanking people for hiring a trainer at all because they could have always waited to address the problem for longer. They decided it was worth taking care of now and that’s all that should matter. Could they have prevented some of the problems earlier? Yes. Does that matter now? No. Educate for their future puppers and they will do better 😁
Well, if you had a child and then decided to not go to a doctor, fed them the wrong diet, treated them wrong, etc., and then went to a doctor for the first time after creating a ton of problems, how do you think that doctor would feel? Its the same for us dog trainers. People get dogs without having a plan, without learning anything, without lining up a trainer or socialization classes, without DOING ANYTHING. You better bet that if you call me, I am going to tell you that you created these problems, because thats where we have to start, YOUR behavior.
My second dog became reactive due to a puppy socialization class where the trainer insisted on off-leash free play. The class was put on by a reputable training organization at the local humane society…but sure, I created the problem with my behavior of trusting a trainer.
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Your comment was removed because it broke one or more of the r/reactivedogs rules. Please remember to be kind to your fellow redditors. Be constructive by offering positive advice rather than simply telling people what they're doing wrong or being dismissive. Maintain respectful discourse around training methods, philosophies, and differing opinions with which you might not agree.
It sounds like you think that trainers who insists upon off-leash play in a puppy class of about 10 dogs ranging from 8-60 lbs has no responsibility when a small dog get tumbled and tackled and becomes reactive. Owners should get trainers, trust trainers and take dogs to puppy class, but they should always know better than trainer, if given bad advice. Nice to be able to judge, but take no responsibility. I’m so happy my current dog trainers are focused on responsibly helping dogs and owners instead of judging.
Because the point at which you learn what you should do when you get a dog is BEFORE you get a dog. It's frustrating to dog trainers because people take on a role as caretaker of an animal's wellbeing without doing the most basic bit of research on what that entails, when we live in an age where information is unfathomably easy to access. We consider you to have a moral duty to have tried to learn how to look after a dog before you commit to getting a dog. Trainers should be 100% empathetic if you tell them that you have tried stuff and it hasn't worked. Just as with everything else in the age of the internet, there are many dickheads telling you wrong stuff and spreading misinformation, or much more common; horribly outdated information not backed by current scientific understanding. A big part of the reason they are asking you questions is to ascertain if this is the case. If you tell me you tried to be informed but were just told the wrong things, that's totally cool. If you tried the [typically] correct things and your dog was just unreceptive, that's also cool. If you tell me you couldn't be bothered to find out what to do before you took on your duty of care, then I reserve the right to be a bit frustrated at your ignorance.
Agree.
Hahaha you’re so right. It’s incredibly unhelpful.
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Your comment was removed because it appears to be a direct recommendation of an aversive tool, trainer, or method. This sub supports LIMA and we strongly believe positive reinforcement should always be the first line of teaching and training. We encourage open discussion and problem solving within the subreddit. However, LIMA does not justify the use of aversive methods and tools in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies.