Lenny. He went toe-to-toe with Dutch in intellectual discussion and threw Dutch so off-kilter that it angered him. Then Lenny had the further smarts to know how to placate him.
It's a random encounter in the camps. You can hear multiple such exchanges between gang members. Dutch and Lenny [talk about Dutch's favorite author. ](https://youtu.be/j-DzZBdMRYA)
He didn't even want to do it. He flat out says that to Arthur and Dutch during the fishing trip. He wants to lay low and let the heat die down. Dutch is the one who makes everyone take part in the "play both sides" bullshit. Only real hit Hosea takes is that he goes along with Dutch's bullshit too long, but that's true for literally everyone in camp.
Raw intelligence, I would guess Trelawny. Most well rounded general knowledge, I would say Dutch. Wisest, Hosea. Most literate, likely Mary-Beth. Best with arithmetic and financial analysis, Strauss. Most knowledge of the land, Charles.
I unironically think Uncle is probably the wisest and most perceptive person in the camp and most intelligent to boot.
He recognized immediately what kind of man Dutch was and saw an opportunity to install himself in the gang as the court jester of sorts to King Dutch. When he needs to do something to stay in Dutch's good graces he'll do it by finding a lead.
He sees the exact same opportunity years later with John and manages to find himself a home in the process.
So in short, I would argue that managing to basically retire and have other people take care of you while doing very little physical labor is the accomplishment of a truly intelligent person.
Dutch. Unironically. Before going mad he managed to evade the law for decades, picking up and prostelyzing to downtrodden across america. He effectively ran a cult, whether he and everyone around him knew it or not
Strauss is intelligent but I'm pretty sure he's self-educated.
He mentions in a camp event being raised in extreme poverty. His parents sold his sister as domestic help because they couldn't afford to raise her and his brother turned to petty crime to make money. He was sent to America with an uncle but the uncle died the night they arrived in New York so he was left alone. He probably had to scrape by with limited opportunities until he taught himself bookkeeping and finance.
Dutch was not perfect we all know that but listen to the dialogue in game Dutches choices went south when Micah joined the gang. Hosea and Arthur said basically the same thing a couple of times throught the game.
no. micah manipulated dutch to do everything he did. in some scenes we even see micah telling dutch what decisions to make and convincing him that arthur was the bad person
I'm not saying Micah is stupid only that Dutch isn't as evil as everyone seems to think. Dutch loved his family in the begging he raised half of them. So don't paint him as a evil person he just got manipulated and the stress of everything helped Micah.
The stress is what led to Dutch being so chaotic. It wasn’t just Micah that told him to do these things, Dutch was already going to choose chaos as his way to go down when he was fighting at Guarma.
That wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for Micah. He had manipulated Dutch so much that Dutch was not himself and was basically Micah brainless robot.
Yes it absolutely would have happened without Micah. It’s why Dutch says “this is kind of fun” when he’s being shelled and fighting a battle, he doesn’t need Micah to create mayhem because it’s all glory to him.
I’m not denying that Micah manipulated him, but it was just encouragement rather than him being told what to do.
you’re missing my point. I too believe that Dutch was someone who cared and loved his gang from the start, but he still truly believed in his personal ideals and by the time he got back from Guarma he let those ideals and Micah’s encouragement get the better of him.
I believe that the Dutch that put a blanket over Sadie was the same Dutch that said “I…” while looking down at Arthur in the end, because he looks like he realized what he let get the better of himself and saw what he turned himself into. There’s no wonder he’s unhinged in RDR1 because it’s far too late to go back.
Don't know anything about RDR1 so can't comment there but I think it wasn't until that moment at the end that Dutch realizes what he's done and what a manipulative person Micah was. At that moment I think he felt immense guilt and blamed himself for everything. A evil person wouldn't do that.
He didn't really manipulate Dutch as much as suck up to him. And he suggested *Dewberry Creek* as the campsite after Horseshoe Overlook.
Micah's saving grace is that he has incredible gun skills. But that's about it.
He was right about the bank in Saint Denis. I’m positive that Abigail was the rat before they picked up Micah so the Pinkertons showed up because she told them about the bank robbery. That’s why Hosea got caught but not her.
I always assumed Abigail got away because Hosea let them catch him and not because she's the rat. Hosea would definitely sacrifice himself so that she wouldn't be taken away from Jack.
Hosea and Lenny. Dutch was a poser. Recycled everything Evelyn Miller said, with little to no originality. Every plan he had was hair brained. He knew how to talk the talk, sure. Which is in a way is a rare form of IQ. But Lenny and Hosea mop the floor with him if we're talking overall intelligence.
Overall I think it'd be Hosea as he always had solutions to many of the gang's problems and always thought ahead and prepaired for the worst and always read some sort of book . The second would be Dutch as he always had good plans in stock but when it came to executing them it was lead to the gang Improvising on the spot. Thried would be Lenny as he was young and really intelligent as I think his father was a lawyer and he read many books and even questioned dutch so yea
It's pretty close between Dutch, Hosea and Lenny. Trelawny to me isn't a real member of the camp but he ranks up there. I would probably put Hosea at the top honestly because Dutch has so much hubris that he can't see his own faults and Lenny just didn't have the life experience yet.
Depends on the type of intelligence. If we’re talking academic than either Hosea, Dutch or Trelawny with Arthur and John coming in after them.
If we’re talking world experience then Hosea and Dutch
Survival intelligence would go to Charles
Emotional intelligence probably goes to Mary-Beth
Again, that’s not a simple question to answer because you need to define which type of intelligence you’re looking for. There is no singularly composite most intelligent member of the gang. Trelawny is academic but his survival intelligence is garbage, the opposite is true for Charles.
Dutch has huge speech skills and is great in interpersonal relations
Lenny is book smart and street smart as well
Trelawny isnt at camp but he seems like a very intelligent man
And hosea looks like he also knows a thing or two
Micah knows how to manipulate
Uncle is also quite clever for being able to keep a nuce position as a clown without much work, I think its deliberate
Those, however, cant compare to the great intellectual prowess of Bill Williamson
Lenny for his sparing with Dutch, or Hosea. Though I think Hosea is more wise than intelligent.
To distinguish between them: wisdom is sussing out contradictions, being able to define and trace abstract matters (emotions, rationalizations, etc). Intelligence is having the logical and practical knowledge about concepts and abstracts.
Both are intellectual tools. I think the former makes one a better teacher and the latter a better actor.
Lol it’s Dutch and it’s not close Lenny may have more knowledge and stuff but it’s Dutch and Hosea as a close second followed by Lenny, Charles then Arthur
Lenny. He went toe-to-toe with Dutch in intellectual discussion and threw Dutch so off-kilter that it angered him. Then Lenny had the further smarts to know how to placate him.
Wait, when did he and Dutch have an intellectual discussion?
They have a few interactions in camp where they discuss Evelyn Miller’s works and philosophical ideas and Dutch gets pretty cheesed off at Lenny
Oh shit, that’s cool
It's a random encounter in the camps. You can hear multiple such exchanges between gang members. Dutch and Lenny [talk about Dutch's favorite author. ](https://youtu.be/j-DzZBdMRYA)
Huh, interesting
I think I'd put my money on Hosea.
Yeah either Dutch or Hosea.
Dutch is smart in a non-traditional sense whether we like it or not. He has a way with people and can get them to do whatever he wants.
Dutch has more mental agility than most people on an objective level, same as Hosea. Only difference is Hosea is wiser than Dutch.
He’s smart enough to accentuate his natural charisma
I like how resourceful Dutch was in Guarma (making bomb from sugar) and his way with words.
I love the way he will not know what the fuck hes doing then when someone he wants to swindle walks up to him its a immediate switch to "Gentleman!"
He mucked up with his plan to scam the Braithwaites and Grey's. They were too good for him.
He didn't even want to do it. He flat out says that to Arthur and Dutch during the fishing trip. He wants to lay low and let the heat die down. Dutch is the one who makes everyone take part in the "play both sides" bullshit. Only real hit Hosea takes is that he goes along with Dutch's bullshit too long, but that's true for literally everyone in camp.
I wished Hosea retired as a stage actor or something.
Raw intelligence, I would guess Trelawny. Most well rounded general knowledge, I would say Dutch. Wisest, Hosea. Most literate, likely Mary-Beth. Best with arithmetic and financial analysis, Strauss. Most knowledge of the land, Charles.
Lenny is also able to call out Dutch on his bullshit philosophical statements
I'm sorry, this is just too simplified an answer. Could you elaborate more?
✨no✨
Oh well.
They all have their strengths and that’s why they worked so well together
Finally a nuanced answer! I agree with this 110%.
Good way to put it. Theres many kinds of intelligence.
Most knowledge of war and the rough waters at sea, Pearson "Have you heard about my time in the navy?"
Lenny because there’s a camp event where he challenged Dutch’s ideal
I wouldn’t say that he challenges Dutch’s ideals, but disagrees with his affinity for Evelyn Miller as an author
I unironically think Uncle is probably the wisest and most perceptive person in the camp and most intelligent to boot. He recognized immediately what kind of man Dutch was and saw an opportunity to install himself in the gang as the court jester of sorts to King Dutch. When he needs to do something to stay in Dutch's good graces he'll do it by finding a lead. He sees the exact same opportunity years later with John and manages to find himself a home in the process. So in short, I would argue that managing to basically retire and have other people take care of you while doing very little physical labor is the accomplishment of a truly intelligent person.
Uncle
If his lumbago hadn't affected his brain, he would have been the smartest person alive.
Dutch. Unironically. Before going mad he managed to evade the law for decades, picking up and prostelyzing to downtrodden across america. He effectively ran a cult, whether he and everyone around him knew it or not
The gang was not a cult it was a family then near the end it became slightly cultish
That doesn’t make him necessarily intelligent, just street smart and able to think widely about the best path of action for the gang
There are many types of intelligence.
No one's gonna mention Strauss? Pretty sure he's the only one with a formal education
Maybe trelawny
Trelawny is smart and all, but he has a big mouth.
Strauss is intelligent but I'm pretty sure he's self-educated. He mentions in a camp event being raised in extreme poverty. His parents sold his sister as domestic help because they couldn't afford to raise her and his brother turned to petty crime to make money. He was sent to America with an uncle but the uncle died the night they arrived in New York so he was left alone. He probably had to scrape by with limited opportunities until he taught himself bookkeeping and finance.
I’d put it on Charles. He might not have that book knowledge. But he is the most capable out of all them to survive
Charles is the wisest at least
Hosea is the wisest.
.
Good point
Though Charles is pretty smart too, as in knowledge of the land, hunting & stuff
He has most survival skills.
Mary-Beth was pretty intellectual. She was an avid reader and writer. She actually becomes a novelist by the end of the game.
Yea but she was a wet blanket, her personality sucked
She just didn’t have any big missions. She had as much personality as Karen or Tilly.
Micah is an underrated option. He manipulated a cult leader for fuck sake
no he didn't. dutch would have made all those decisions by himself
No I think you wrong about that. Those decisions were all Micah
congratulations you've been manipulated by dutch
Dutch was not perfect we all know that but listen to the dialogue in game Dutches choices went south when Micah joined the gang. Hosea and Arthur said basically the same thing a couple of times throught the game.
no. micah manipulated dutch to do everything he did. in some scenes we even see micah telling dutch what decisions to make and convincing him that arthur was the bad person
you've been gaslit by a fictional character, here's your medal
Originally the gang was a family not a cult but near the end that is when it turned cultish
Still, he managed to manipulate Dutch, who himself was manipulative
I'm not saying Micah is stupid only that Dutch isn't as evil as everyone seems to think. Dutch loved his family in the begging he raised half of them. So don't paint him as a evil person he just got manipulated and the stress of everything helped Micah.
The stress is what led to Dutch being so chaotic. It wasn’t just Micah that told him to do these things, Dutch was already going to choose chaos as his way to go down when he was fighting at Guarma.
That wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for Micah. He had manipulated Dutch so much that Dutch was not himself and was basically Micah brainless robot.
Yes it absolutely would have happened without Micah. It’s why Dutch says “this is kind of fun” when he’s being shelled and fighting a battle, he doesn’t need Micah to create mayhem because it’s all glory to him. I’m not denying that Micah manipulated him, but it was just encouragement rather than him being told what to do.
Let's just agree to disagree because I still think that was Micah's manipulation talking. Dutch calming and taking Sadie in that was the real Dutch.
you’re missing my point. I too believe that Dutch was someone who cared and loved his gang from the start, but he still truly believed in his personal ideals and by the time he got back from Guarma he let those ideals and Micah’s encouragement get the better of him. I believe that the Dutch that put a blanket over Sadie was the same Dutch that said “I…” while looking down at Arthur in the end, because he looks like he realized what he let get the better of himself and saw what he turned himself into. There’s no wonder he’s unhinged in RDR1 because it’s far too late to go back.
Don't know anything about RDR1 so can't comment there but I think it wasn't until that moment at the end that Dutch realizes what he's done and what a manipulative person Micah was. At that moment I think he felt immense guilt and blamed himself for everything. A evil person wouldn't do that.
He didn't really manipulate Dutch as much as suck up to him. And he suggested *Dewberry Creek* as the campsite after Horseshoe Overlook. Micah's saving grace is that he has incredible gun skills. But that's about it.
Oh no he manipulated Dutch for sure he did it so much that Dutch didn't realize it was happening.
Hosea hands down
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He was right about the bank in Saint Denis. I’m positive that Abigail was the rat before they picked up Micah so the Pinkertons showed up because she told them about the bank robbery. That’s why Hosea got caught but not her.
I always assumed Abigail got away because Hosea let them catch him and not because she's the rat. Hosea would definitely sacrifice himself so that she wouldn't be taken away from Jack.
That’s another possibility. Who knows the truth? That’s what’s great about this game.
She never acknowledged Hosea for that later in the game. Her silence in this matter is suspicious.
I always assumed she got away because they weren't after the women.
I think Strauss or Hosea
The dog
either lenny or hosea. Hosea just seems like the grandpa that taught you most of what you know
Not Bill
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Trelawney is excellent at giving responses without revealing any information in them.
I'd actually say Charles. He seems to be the most well rounded with his intelligence and he isn't blinded by loyalty, or anything for that matter
id say charles or hosea
Hosea, Lenny, or Uncle.
That's quite a span there.
Trelawny.
Hosea and Lenny. Dutch was a poser. Recycled everything Evelyn Miller said, with little to no originality. Every plan he had was hair brained. He knew how to talk the talk, sure. Which is in a way is a rare form of IQ. But Lenny and Hosea mop the floor with him if we're talking overall intelligence.
Strauss, he was the book keeper so you know.
Hosea
Abigail Roberts. Why? She hid the money from God and everyone in that camp. Only gave the key to one person… Arthur.
But she also chose John out of everyone in that camp, so there's a balance. /s
Overall I think it'd be Hosea as he always had solutions to many of the gang's problems and always thought ahead and prepaired for the worst and always read some sort of book . The second would be Dutch as he always had good plans in stock but when it came to executing them it was lead to the gang Improvising on the spot. Thried would be Lenny as he was young and really intelligent as I think his father was a lawyer and he read many books and even questioned dutch so yea
It's pretty close between Dutch, Hosea and Lenny. Trelawny to me isn't a real member of the camp but he ranks up there. I would probably put Hosea at the top honestly because Dutch has so much hubris that he can't see his own faults and Lenny just didn't have the life experience yet.
I think it's a tie between Hosea, Lenny, and Trelawney
Depends on the type of intelligence. If we’re talking academic than either Hosea, Dutch or Trelawny with Arthur and John coming in after them. If we’re talking world experience then Hosea and Dutch Survival intelligence would go to Charles Emotional intelligence probably goes to Mary-Beth
But overall, who is the most intelligent?
Again, that’s not a simple question to answer because you need to define which type of intelligence you’re looking for. There is no singularly composite most intelligent member of the gang. Trelawny is academic but his survival intelligence is garbage, the opposite is true for Charles.
hosea
Trelawny
Hosea surely
Strauss
Micah
Wow saying that takes balls
Hosea
Trelawny isn't at camp, really. So ruling him out either Hosea or Dutch.
Dutch is the best with his words. Hosea Is the most wise. But pure intelligence? Imo its trelawny
probably charles. im kind of surprised that no one picked him.
will billiamson definitely the smartest all round
Josiah. Then a Dutch or Hosea.
Dutch has huge speech skills and is great in interpersonal relations Lenny is book smart and street smart as well Trelawny isnt at camp but he seems like a very intelligent man And hosea looks like he also knows a thing or two Micah knows how to manipulate Uncle is also quite clever for being able to keep a nuce position as a clown without much work, I think its deliberate Those, however, cant compare to the great intellectual prowess of Bill Williamson
Lenny for his sparing with Dutch, or Hosea. Though I think Hosea is more wise than intelligent. To distinguish between them: wisdom is sussing out contradictions, being able to define and trace abstract matters (emotions, rationalizations, etc). Intelligence is having the logical and practical knowledge about concepts and abstracts. Both are intellectual tools. I think the former makes one a better teacher and the latter a better actor.
Uncle before Lumbago got to him.
Hosea or lenny considering lenny is book smart and Hosea is street and book smart
Hosea or Lenny
Lol it’s Dutch and it’s not close Lenny may have more knowledge and stuff but it’s Dutch and Hosea as a close second followed by Lenny, Charles then Arthur
Also Arthur is being left out read his journal he is very intelligent
Yet you just put him in 3rd place in your other post where it was Dutch and it "wasn't close." Lol.
It’s not lol
So...who cares if he's being left out then? You didn't even choose him.
People are ranking them your slow
You're
Strauss or Dutch or Hosea. (Strauss is here since he’s an accountant, not an easy job)
Murfee Brood you gotta be pretty dang smart to pretend you have the Pox to rob someone
Murfree Brood are members of the camp? This is brand new information.
Guys this is the 100th comment. Keep the vote at 100 too.