Not me since literally every time Dutch calls Arthur "son" in the game he's emotionally manipulating him in some way, either to distract from something shitty he just did to him or to discourage him from questioning a stupid plan.
Thats how Dutch is. Ever notice how complimentary he is right before he wants someone to do something for him? He's charming as all fuck and knows what hes doing even if he doesnt realize hes doing it.
Thats why I always felt bad for Molly. Dutch seems like a man who is easy to fall in love with but hard to love
Dutch did care for arthur at some point. He just sort of gave into his ego. I think hosea was the one keeping him level. At the end I think he remembered how much he used to care for arthur and remembered how much arthur cared for him, he realised what he'd done. But he decided to be a coward and run away.
He did care about him but he was also a manipulative narcissist. I agree he did realise but the narcissism and ego stopped him from saying it/apologising or learning/changing from the realisation
Hosea dying and Dutch hitting his head that same mission was truly Dutch’s fall. Started before that but he was being kept in check. Micah in his ear definitely didn’t help though
I think it definitely did, he seems to lose all reason after that, but it could be Hosea dying. Hard to say since they happen within minutes of each other. I’ve heard others talk about his concussion contributing though
I mean, it could've been, nothing to say if it was or wasn't. But he shot that girl in Blackwater for what seemed like no reason at all, so he was already "bad," imo. Hosea just knew how to control him. When Hosea died, so did Dutchs brain. All of the pressure, etc, tumbled down on him. He sort of shared the burden of leadership with hosea, too. Think it all just got too much, and he switched into his alter ego completely, instead straddling the fence of good Dutch and bad Dutch.
I like dutch as a character brilliantly written and acted.
It could be the head knock. It could be the shock of losing Hosea. It could even be the stress of thinking they were home free and then ending up shipwrecked in Guarma. Maybe all three. One thing is for sure, his anxiety, suspiciousness, and petty cruelty ramps up after the bank job.
I agree. Shit kinda goes into sixth gear at that point in the story and none of those three get explored as why. You kinda just shift from how to help the gang to how to help John and his fam. I like the ambiguity though
The emotion would come from the fact that for the first time in the game, Dutch would’ve been truly genuine in calling him that. He wouldn’t be trying to manipulate Arthur in that moment but instead he would showing genuine remorse for Arthur’s death
I remember the VA for dutch had said this scene was described to him as a scene where dutch realizes all his failures. arthurs words haunts Dutch for the rest of his life I'm pretty sure.
Also in the epilogue when he tells John, 'I don't talk much these days.' Even all that time later, the impact of all that happened on the run up to the cliffs edge sits heavy with him all those years later.
I guess he forgot again since his next move is to find a new group of people to exploit and get killed (Native Americans this time) and become more murderous and evil than ever, and he still blames others for everything until the moment he dies
My take on this is, Dutch is like a shark. He has to keep moving forward or he dies. Looking back and truly taking stock of what he's done, would kill him. When Arthur lays there dying and says that to him, Dutch allows the truth through for a moment. And again when John corners him on the cliff in RDR1. But I think Dutch has a tremendous capacity for compartmentalization. He's a survivor. So he lost everything and everyone who mattered to him. But the grift begins again because it's how he survives.
Couldn’t agree more! The Dutch that told John he was gonna kill him and the professor in RDR1, “for sport I suppose”, is what he had to become to keep outrunning the guilt that sits on his shoulders. The Dutch that leaned back off that cliff was a result of realizing he has nowhere else to run. He’s stuck between John and a 100 foot fall. He can either attempt to kill John and keep running from this awful feeling and the ever approaching feds. Or he can just be at peace, or whatever he believes of the afterlife.
What else was he gonna do? That's all he knew. He didn't magically agree with the government or civilizing the west. He wasn't gonna give himself up and cut a bullshit deal or seek redemption. He was broken and losing more and more of his mind as his selfish life ate at him over the years..
I dunno maybe at least don't start an even more exploitative gang and start murdering innocent people for fun? It's sad because he \*does\* realise he did Arthur wrong in that moment, and later John on the mountain. But he can't say it or apologise and doesn't learn anything from it. I guess you're right that he was just broken and losing more and more of his mind.
True. Big Ben Davis literally said he turned the corner and started crying and told them that they can and should add that to the game. I wish they did.
To many things, that's why he stopped. I think he wanted to say "I had a plan" not even in a meme way. He wanted Arthur to live and this wasn't want he really wanted. His heart told him to say "I-m sorry" but he couldn't. Then I think truly it was going to come out as "i- don't know" as in he's in pure shock of what he did and what just happened. I feel he had a lot to say but couldn't, so it's up to us to decide what he wanted to say. That's why I love Dutch, so much of his character is up to interpretation in rdr2. It's amazing.
Well put!! I love Dutch’s complicity so much. He could be a devil all out for himself and could be a tragic hero who was defeated by things beyond his control, and both interpretations make sense and could be supported with strong evidence in game. IMO he is both. When a dream does not fit in with reality, it becomes a lie. It’s top notch character writing. The writers of rdr2 are geniuses.
The game that RDR2 is a prequel to confirms it's the former though. He learned absolutely nothing and just did the same things again only even worse. He's trash.
Well, the argument is that he could be either one, not which one he's turns out to be. Every villain is the hero of their own story, every hero has the potential to be a villain, it's just kind of implicit to the personalities of these people, they have such strong ideals, that if the script was ever flipped, they'd be the opposite of who they are.
I just finished rdr1. In which John said at least four times that Dutch had changed, and they were still kinda family despite all that. John held higher regard for Dutch in rdr1 than in rdr2 epilogue. He said to Ross, ‘we did more for the people with the money we took than your damn government ever did’, and ‘Dutch was a great man once, a far better man than you. Bastards like you thought ppl never change.” Would he said that to a man he thinks always all out for himself?
Maybe John’s thought on Dutch changed bc he shot micah and left him all the money - would a pure monster do that? I think any claim or ‘confirmation’ that Dutch is bad or Dutch is good is doing his amazing character disservice, ignoring all the efforts rockstar put in him.
I think John is conflicted about Dutch in both games, as well as saying he changed and that the gang used to do good there's other times he says Dutch just showed who he really was and that the gang's philosophy was always bs. RDR1 quote: "That life we lived is over. And when we was livin' it it didn't mean nothing anyway. It was just an excuse and we all knew." John and Arthur have been raised by Dutch and indoctrinated with his views since they were teens and seen good sides of him so it's hard for them to fully condemn him.
I think John and Arthur ‘fully’ condemning Dutch as you put it would be hypocrisy. It’s not like they’re saints. Both Arthur, Dutch and John are men with both good and bad in them, with different proportions in different eras and times, but never 100% good or 100% bad. It’s the best thing Rockstar did to their characters.
As the philosophy, it’s still open for interpretation, as the game gives a lot contradictory answers to the question, and what you said here is just one of them. For example, when Abigail said it was all a lie in 1, John did not fully agree with her but said, ‘maybe, but they were still family’. It captures the duality perfectly. When Dutch’s dream turned into a lie under the pressure of reality, what remains true is that they were a family. My personal interpretation on this is that, dream and lie are the two sides of the same coin of Dutch’s philosophy. Don’t forget if he wasn’t holding the philosophy of helping the poor in the very beginning, Dutch probably wouldn’t save John or Arthur and just leave them to their fate (gallows, and street)
I just mean fully admit who he is. Arthur in particular really never loses his loyalty to him even right at the end - he uses his last dying breaths to still try to help him by urging him not to trust Micah.
I think it's a cult leader thing. He sought out vulnerable desperate people to "help" and while he did genuinely help them in some ways he also exploited them and turned them into killers and criminals as well as making it difficult if not impossible for them to ever be their own people with their own lives. It's all about feeling like a saviour and having people following him.
I don’t think a person can fully understand what himself is thinking or doing, or else there wouldn’t be so many ‘find your true self’ guidelines. Arthur wrote in his journal after the trolley mission ‘Dutch is torn between his dream escape and the urge to prove something, as for what idk, not sure he does.’ It’s a very clear evidence of Dutch not fully aware of what he is doing. He did not see himself as a criminal, but a proud outlaw. What he is is a perception, not a fact. Speaking of which - I guess he admits he’s a monster at the very end, calling himself a monster when facing John ‘when I died, they’ll find another monster’. But I think we can both agree he wasn’t a monster in the beginning.
As for manipulating ppl into following him like a cult leader - he taught John and Arthur to read and write. Dutch equipped them with the most powerful weapon of independent thinking - knowledge and an access to knowledge. In Dutch’s official intro page on Rockstar guidebook, it reads ‘Dutch instill them (the orphans he picked up from street) sense of self-worth and the necessity of independent thinking’. Why would he bother if he just needs brainless gunmen? There are tons of gangs out there recruiting men who can shoot and ride - Odriscoll. What did Dutch gain from all this? There’s no medal for being a good outlaw. But he did it anyway.
But brainless gunmen is all he allows them to be. He never forgave John for leaving for a year as evidenced by how he distrusts him and Abigail for no good reason. Arthur can never be with the woman he loves and be his own man. Dutch wants them running around after him for the rest of their lives, not making their own lives.
Then look at someone like Lenny. He's highly intelligent and educated and although he needed help to get out of trouble he could certainly be doing something better with his life than learning to be a cold blooded killer and robbing people - Hosea even urges him to leave and study for a career. But Dutch and the other gang members praise him for what a good job he's doing so as an impressionable 19 year old he stays, only to die for nothing. Dutch exploited people consciously and subconsciously at every turn.
What you said made me really hopeful that RDR3 is set before the events of 2 and is from the POV of younger Dutch as a true start to his tragic hero arc
Yup. As I was reading the comment from the actors I couldn’t help but think then why put that scene in there of him cracking his head. I think it’s part of it. The “accumulation special” is the reason for all downfalls. Never just one thing.
I don’t think the head crack was intended to be responsible for the whole downfall. But if you read into brain trauma, it can cause things like easily frustrated, change of temperament, all kinds of crazy symptoms.
This is also right before Dutch starts making slick comments towards John and Arthur about being traitors and hinting they could be the rat; then he strangles the lady in guarma; and a few weeks later(if even) is when he puts the gang at even more risk by rashly shooting Cornwall, and ensuring Colm’s death. The fact that he put them all at risk for revenge but couldn’t risk it for John? Or Abigail? And then he left Arthur to Die in the factory and we later learn from John that Dutch practically stood and watched while he was arrested.
This also explains why he later felt true remorse for Arthur and John, and killed Micah. The head injury only truly lasted for a few months at most, but when it was over with… he couldn’t take any of it back.
How something didn't take over Dutch in that moment and run to Arthur I don't know. Even after everything there would be something you couldn't fight that would pull you to the ground. He's a cold bastard.
Because he's a piece of shit. He did genuinely care about Arthur and everyone else, but he cared about himself much more. He was obsessed with his ideology and his war against society.
A lot of people blame Micah for everything, but even if he never existed the gang's downfall would be pretty much the same, maybe just a few weeks/months later.
I am not trying to contradict you. You are correct. But I do think most people agree with you. It was both Dutch and Micah. That was the frustration, no one could talk to Dutch because of Micah. Arthur was trying to get through to Dutch but he couldn’t because of Micah.
Your right. He only prolonged the inevitable. Without him maybe John and Arthur could have talked some sense into him. Plus don’t forget it was Micah pushing Blackwater. That was the beginning of the end.
I don't think there was ever a chance to set things right. The gang was doomed without Hosea. Only he could keep things together.
John didn't trust Dutch since the start of the game, he wouldn't put much effort into fixing things. No matter what happens to the gang, he'd always end up leaving with his family. And Arthur isn't much of a leader type. He's pretty bad at communicating and always follows Dutch's dumb plans even if hates them.
For the most part I can agree with that except at the end when things were hopeless. I think Arthur might have been able to talk some sense into Dutch. To your point he did have blind faith with Dutch but with Micah he never got that chance. When Arthur finally stood up to Dutch by insisting they let John go. Dutch would never have left Arthur to die if he didn’t have his new yes man in Micah.
He probably wanted to say "I know." I think Dutch knew internally that he should've put more trust in Arthur. He knew that Arthur just wanted what was best for everyone, but Dutch was just too focused on trying to make it big. Micah took advantage of this and surpassed Arthur's trust. Dutch obviously regretted this decision because of his final betrayal to Micah.
To me it's just another example of Dutch's narcissism. The right thing to say was to apologise to Arthur and admit his mistakes....but as a narcissist he is incapable of admitting he's wrong even when for a brief moment he realises it in his head. Confirmed when he goes on to double down and do the same things again only worse. He learned nothing and never changed.
He didn't have anything to say. Morgan was right. And after thinking about it, Dutch knew that he couldn't reply anything relevant and honest. He never gave everything that he had. He never completely sacrificed himself. He never told the entire truth to anybody. He was a plain liar and manipulator all along. More or less depending on the people of course, but it seems that absolutely no one around would not be spared of his manipulations.
Dutch is a man who needs the last word. He needs to respond and justify himself in every instance, or show that he’s still in control. In this situation, I like to think that that instinct took over, but he couldn’t say anything, and he couldn’t justify his actions anymore.
I really like this one for the reasons you said and his plan always included Arthur right up until the very end when Arthur insisted they let John and them go.
I wish the scene went on a little and Arthur asked him “Say something Dutch. What are you thinking right now”?
“I..I..was thinking I’d like me some of those French fried po-taters…Mmmm Hmmm”.
Nothing. Thats the whole point of the scene. Dutch has had an answer for EVERYTHING up until this point. We've pretty much never seen Dutch speechless. So him fumbling his words, not knowing what to say, speaks volumes.
Nothing, that's the thing, Dutch it's all game yapin about how he will save everybody and how he is so empathic with the ones that has died, but when the time comes to be a real man, he just stands there, incapable of speaking, cuase he just lost everything, everybody and it's just his fault
the word fuck is barely used in this game so i wish it was utilised in this last segment. i feel like it would’ve had a huge impact kinda like how in the show bojack horseman they only use it once a season.
“Perhaps Arthur… this was your chance. A chance to Red Dead Redemption™ 2 released for PlayStation 4 and Xbox One on October 26th 2018 to critical acclaim and by Rockstar Studios yourself.”
"I... I know."
I think that was the moment Dutch finally broke for good. Wether he was always the murderous psycho he became, or if it was that hit to the head that caused him brain damage, I think Dutch finally realised all the mistakes he made that had led up to this moment. It was only when his most loyal follower lay dying at his feet did Dutch realise he was the one who had failed them.
But he's the great Dutch Van Der Linde. He's never in the wrong.
So he stops himself before he admits his failure out loud.
I like to think he was about to make up a excuse, but realized these are the consequences of his actions. If I were to guess, I’d think he’d say something like.
“I was trying to save us.”
Or
“I had a plan Arthur, we would have made it if you just followed the plan.”
But as I said, Dutch knew at the end he messed up.
He was speechless because for the first time in his life he realized he was wrong, yet he walked away to keep whatever vestige of pride he had left. Dutch was irredeemable from that point on and deserved what he got in the end. He's a coward.
Benjamin Byron Davis said that as he walked away from Arthur & Micah, he started crying given how impactful the moment was.
I wonder if Dutch's stutter here is actually Davis literally not being able to get the words out
Two different responses depending on if Dutch either showed a little humility or kept being a deranged selfish lunatic.
If he showed a bit of humility maybe something along the lines of, 'I know...son...but...' and he chokes up a bit before walking off.
If he kept being the deranged selfish lunatic he could say something like, 'I....it wasn't enough, I needed more...'
I have no idea what Dutch was going to say but knowing the Dutch character pretty well I can have a pretty good stab at it -
I know son but you were expendable.
By the end of the game I came to loathe Dutch van de Linde with a passion and played Red Dead Redemption 1 to get my vengeance on him. Spoiler if you haven't completed RDR1 - >!And the loathsome creature that he is denied me even that.!<
Dutch: “Arthur, you lazy bastard! Get up off your ass and go rob something! I don’t want to hear any more of your nonsense about being sick! We need money!!!”
Arthur: “I’se sorry Boss! Just let me catch my breath, and I’ll get right on that! Yup-Yup! I’se still yore boy, Boss!”
I don’t think he was going to say anything. I think he was going to try to make an excuse but either couldn’t think of one or realized that no excuse can fix the situation.
I always viewed this moment as when Dutch truly lost it. Like what little was left of his sanity snapped like a twig. Throughout the entire game, Dutch always has some grand speech or little quip to fall back on. In this scene, the man who built his gang through his venomous words has nothing left to say.
"I'm sorry" always my head canon and always will, he had excuses for everyone, everything but maybe told sorry to arthur maybe once in the game for somethign so random
I feel like he was gonna say something to deflect then just couldn't do it, although that could just be me being in denial about dutch actually caring for aurthur
I always figured that was just Dutch snapping into his normal reflex bullshit talk. But realizing this time it was different and he really did just let one of the only people that actually stayed with him through everything due in such a bad way.
"I...missed the part where that's my problem."
*Arthur gets up* "I'm gonna put some dirt in your eye. See you chump." *somehow fights gravity after jumping off the cliff*
Also Arthur: "Gonna cry?"
You want redemption? Get religion
My favorite part is when he says "time to stand unshaken" and he stands unshaken all over the place
“I’m wearing red and almost dead, time for a redemption.”
The writers were cooking with this one
Unexpected r/raimimemes
The best kind, genuinely burst out laughing, fuckin golden
No, I despised you. You were an embarrassment to me…
All of that just for insisting to let John and his family leave
John shouldn't have looked back. Should've kept moving. Far past Beecher's Hope.
But then how could he redemption his red dead?
😭😭
I… I know son
This would have broke me
Not me since literally every time Dutch calls Arthur "son" in the game he's emotionally manipulating him in some way, either to distract from something shitty he just did to him or to discourage him from questioning a stupid plan.
Thats how Dutch is. Ever notice how complimentary he is right before he wants someone to do something for him? He's charming as all fuck and knows what hes doing even if he doesnt realize hes doing it. Thats why I always felt bad for Molly. Dutch seems like a man who is easy to fall in love with but hard to love
Absolutely! Boils my blood every time I hear it. I feel bad for Molly too, victim of Dutch's charm
Cool cowboy hat on your avatar
Dutch did care for arthur at some point. He just sort of gave into his ego. I think hosea was the one keeping him level. At the end I think he remembered how much he used to care for arthur and remembered how much arthur cared for him, he realised what he'd done. But he decided to be a coward and run away.
He did care about him but he was also a manipulative narcissist. I agree he did realise but the narcissism and ego stopped him from saying it/apologising or learning/changing from the realisation
Yeah, you can kind of see it in his face at the end. He has a look of sad realisation.
Real telling that his last word to Arthur was "I."
Hosea dying and Dutch hitting his head that same mission was truly Dutch’s fall. Started before that but he was being kept in check. Micah in his ear definitely didn’t help though
Didn't think him hitting his head had anything to do with it. He was already like that. He just managed to keep it in check
I think it definitely did, he seems to lose all reason after that, but it could be Hosea dying. Hard to say since they happen within minutes of each other. I’ve heard others talk about his concussion contributing though
I mean, it could've been, nothing to say if it was or wasn't. But he shot that girl in Blackwater for what seemed like no reason at all, so he was already "bad," imo. Hosea just knew how to control him. When Hosea died, so did Dutchs brain. All of the pressure, etc, tumbled down on him. He sort of shared the burden of leadership with hosea, too. Think it all just got too much, and he switched into his alter ego completely, instead straddling the fence of good Dutch and bad Dutch. I like dutch as a character brilliantly written and acted.
Not to mention murdering the old lady in Guarma when she didnt pose a threat really.
It annoys me to no end that neither of them looted the old lady after Dutch killed her, to get back the gold bar they already gave her.
It could be the head knock. It could be the shock of losing Hosea. It could even be the stress of thinking they were home free and then ending up shipwrecked in Guarma. Maybe all three. One thing is for sure, his anxiety, suspiciousness, and petty cruelty ramps up after the bank job.
I agree. Shit kinda goes into sixth gear at that point in the story and none of those three get explored as why. You kinda just shift from how to help the gang to how to help John and his fam. I like the ambiguity though
I mean him hitting his head doesn’t thematically add to or serve the story so I’d say it’s not why.
> Dutch did care for arthur at some point As much as a malignant narcissist cult leader can care for anyone. Mostly he just used him.
Nah he did care.
Exactly, I loathe it. He says it to shut him up or when he wants to take credit for something arthur did.
The emotion would come from the fact that for the first time in the game, Dutch would’ve been truly genuine in calling him that. He wouldn’t be trying to manipulate Arthur in that moment but instead he would showing genuine remorse for Arthur’s death
Me too!
Seems like it would fit with how dutch is in the epilogue
Yes, guilt ridden and desperate.
Bro that would’ve finished me
Oof
This was a great answer!!!!! I really think you are right!!!
would have broken down
I would’ve sworn he was about to say this
I remember the VA for dutch had said this scene was described to him as a scene where dutch realizes all his failures. arthurs words haunts Dutch for the rest of his life I'm pretty sure.
They do, he says to John in rdr: "our time's past John.." which is pretty much what Arthur was all about
Also in the epilogue when he tells John, 'I don't talk much these days.' Even all that time later, the impact of all that happened on the run up to the cliffs edge sits heavy with him all those years later.
And he also said that as he got out of the stage and watched the scene continue without him "I cried my eyes out"
I guess he forgot again since his next move is to find a new group of people to exploit and get killed (Native Americans this time) and become more murderous and evil than ever, and he still blames others for everything until the moment he dies
My take on this is, Dutch is like a shark. He has to keep moving forward or he dies. Looking back and truly taking stock of what he's done, would kill him. When Arthur lays there dying and says that to him, Dutch allows the truth through for a moment. And again when John corners him on the cliff in RDR1. But I think Dutch has a tremendous capacity for compartmentalization. He's a survivor. So he lost everything and everyone who mattered to him. But the grift begins again because it's how he survives.
Couldn’t agree more! The Dutch that told John he was gonna kill him and the professor in RDR1, “for sport I suppose”, is what he had to become to keep outrunning the guilt that sits on his shoulders. The Dutch that leaned back off that cliff was a result of realizing he has nowhere else to run. He’s stuck between John and a 100 foot fall. He can either attempt to kill John and keep running from this awful feeling and the ever approaching feds. Or he can just be at peace, or whatever he believes of the afterlife.
> whatever he believes of the afterlife Tahiti and mangos!
Best analysis I’ve seen on Dutch’s psyche. Good stuff. I like Dutch’s character more and more as time goes on.
What else was he gonna do? That's all he knew. He didn't magically agree with the government or civilizing the west. He wasn't gonna give himself up and cut a bullshit deal or seek redemption. He was broken and losing more and more of his mind as his selfish life ate at him over the years..
I dunno maybe at least don't start an even more exploitative gang and start murdering innocent people for fun? It's sad because he \*does\* realise he did Arthur wrong in that moment, and later John on the mountain. But he can't say it or apologise and doesn't learn anything from it. I guess you're right that he was just broken and losing more and more of his mind.
That's a very weird and long line for Dutch to say
True. Big Ben Davis literally said he turned the corner and started crying and told them that they can and should add that to the game. I wish they did.
He also cried after every take
I HAD A PLAN!
Underrated
To many things, that's why he stopped. I think he wanted to say "I had a plan" not even in a meme way. He wanted Arthur to live and this wasn't want he really wanted. His heart told him to say "I-m sorry" but he couldn't. Then I think truly it was going to come out as "i- don't know" as in he's in pure shock of what he did and what just happened. I feel he had a lot to say but couldn't, so it's up to us to decide what he wanted to say. That's why I love Dutch, so much of his character is up to interpretation in rdr2. It's amazing.
Well put!! I love Dutch’s complicity so much. He could be a devil all out for himself and could be a tragic hero who was defeated by things beyond his control, and both interpretations make sense and could be supported with strong evidence in game. IMO he is both. When a dream does not fit in with reality, it becomes a lie. It’s top notch character writing. The writers of rdr2 are geniuses.
The game that RDR2 is a prequel to confirms it's the former though. He learned absolutely nothing and just did the same things again only even worse. He's trash.
Well, the argument is that he could be either one, not which one he's turns out to be. Every villain is the hero of their own story, every hero has the potential to be a villain, it's just kind of implicit to the personalities of these people, they have such strong ideals, that if the script was ever flipped, they'd be the opposite of who they are.
I just finished rdr1. In which John said at least four times that Dutch had changed, and they were still kinda family despite all that. John held higher regard for Dutch in rdr1 than in rdr2 epilogue. He said to Ross, ‘we did more for the people with the money we took than your damn government ever did’, and ‘Dutch was a great man once, a far better man than you. Bastards like you thought ppl never change.” Would he said that to a man he thinks always all out for himself? Maybe John’s thought on Dutch changed bc he shot micah and left him all the money - would a pure monster do that? I think any claim or ‘confirmation’ that Dutch is bad or Dutch is good is doing his amazing character disservice, ignoring all the efforts rockstar put in him.
I think John is conflicted about Dutch in both games, as well as saying he changed and that the gang used to do good there's other times he says Dutch just showed who he really was and that the gang's philosophy was always bs. RDR1 quote: "That life we lived is over. And when we was livin' it it didn't mean nothing anyway. It was just an excuse and we all knew." John and Arthur have been raised by Dutch and indoctrinated with his views since they were teens and seen good sides of him so it's hard for them to fully condemn him.
I think John and Arthur ‘fully’ condemning Dutch as you put it would be hypocrisy. It’s not like they’re saints. Both Arthur, Dutch and John are men with both good and bad in them, with different proportions in different eras and times, but never 100% good or 100% bad. It’s the best thing Rockstar did to their characters. As the philosophy, it’s still open for interpretation, as the game gives a lot contradictory answers to the question, and what you said here is just one of them. For example, when Abigail said it was all a lie in 1, John did not fully agree with her but said, ‘maybe, but they were still family’. It captures the duality perfectly. When Dutch’s dream turned into a lie under the pressure of reality, what remains true is that they were a family. My personal interpretation on this is that, dream and lie are the two sides of the same coin of Dutch’s philosophy. Don’t forget if he wasn’t holding the philosophy of helping the poor in the very beginning, Dutch probably wouldn’t save John or Arthur and just leave them to their fate (gallows, and street)
I just mean fully admit who he is. Arthur in particular really never loses his loyalty to him even right at the end - he uses his last dying breaths to still try to help him by urging him not to trust Micah. I think it's a cult leader thing. He sought out vulnerable desperate people to "help" and while he did genuinely help them in some ways he also exploited them and turned them into killers and criminals as well as making it difficult if not impossible for them to ever be their own people with their own lives. It's all about feeling like a saviour and having people following him.
I don’t think a person can fully understand what himself is thinking or doing, or else there wouldn’t be so many ‘find your true self’ guidelines. Arthur wrote in his journal after the trolley mission ‘Dutch is torn between his dream escape and the urge to prove something, as for what idk, not sure he does.’ It’s a very clear evidence of Dutch not fully aware of what he is doing. He did not see himself as a criminal, but a proud outlaw. What he is is a perception, not a fact. Speaking of which - I guess he admits he’s a monster at the very end, calling himself a monster when facing John ‘when I died, they’ll find another monster’. But I think we can both agree he wasn’t a monster in the beginning. As for manipulating ppl into following him like a cult leader - he taught John and Arthur to read and write. Dutch equipped them with the most powerful weapon of independent thinking - knowledge and an access to knowledge. In Dutch’s official intro page on Rockstar guidebook, it reads ‘Dutch instill them (the orphans he picked up from street) sense of self-worth and the necessity of independent thinking’. Why would he bother if he just needs brainless gunmen? There are tons of gangs out there recruiting men who can shoot and ride - Odriscoll. What did Dutch gain from all this? There’s no medal for being a good outlaw. But he did it anyway.
But brainless gunmen is all he allows them to be. He never forgave John for leaving for a year as evidenced by how he distrusts him and Abigail for no good reason. Arthur can never be with the woman he loves and be his own man. Dutch wants them running around after him for the rest of their lives, not making their own lives. Then look at someone like Lenny. He's highly intelligent and educated and although he needed help to get out of trouble he could certainly be doing something better with his life than learning to be a cold blooded killer and robbing people - Hosea even urges him to leave and study for a career. But Dutch and the other gang members praise him for what a good job he's doing so as an impressionable 19 year old he stays, only to die for nothing. Dutch exploited people consciously and subconsciously at every turn.
What you said made me really hopeful that RDR3 is set before the events of 2 and is from the POV of younger Dutch as a true start to his tragic hero arc
"I guess I'll catch you later, then"
HA!!! That was funny. Perfect timing.
Thank you!
Bro pressed greet 3 times
+1 honour
“I didn’t actually know Spanish”
This would’ve broke me 😭😢
Only one able to answer that accurately is the actual writer Dan Houser.
Yup. As I was reading the comment from the actors I couldn’t help but think then why put that scene in there of him cracking his head. I think it’s part of it. The “accumulation special” is the reason for all downfalls. Never just one thing.
I don’t think the head crack was intended to be responsible for the whole downfall. But if you read into brain trauma, it can cause things like easily frustrated, change of temperament, all kinds of crazy symptoms. This is also right before Dutch starts making slick comments towards John and Arthur about being traitors and hinting they could be the rat; then he strangles the lady in guarma; and a few weeks later(if even) is when he puts the gang at even more risk by rashly shooting Cornwall, and ensuring Colm’s death. The fact that he put them all at risk for revenge but couldn’t risk it for John? Or Abigail? And then he left Arthur to Die in the factory and we later learn from John that Dutch practically stood and watched while he was arrested. This also explains why he later felt true remorse for Arthur and John, and killed Micah. The head injury only truly lasted for a few months at most, but when it was over with… he couldn’t take any of it back.
How something didn't take over Dutch in that moment and run to Arthur I don't know. Even after everything there would be something you couldn't fight that would pull you to the ground. He's a cold bastard.
Because he's a piece of shit. He did genuinely care about Arthur and everyone else, but he cared about himself much more. He was obsessed with his ideology and his war against society. A lot of people blame Micah for everything, but even if he never existed the gang's downfall would be pretty much the same, maybe just a few weeks/months later.
I am not trying to contradict you. You are correct. But I do think most people agree with you. It was both Dutch and Micah. That was the frustration, no one could talk to Dutch because of Micah. Arthur was trying to get through to Dutch but he couldn’t because of Micah. Your right. He only prolonged the inevitable. Without him maybe John and Arthur could have talked some sense into him. Plus don’t forget it was Micah pushing Blackwater. That was the beginning of the end.
I don't think there was ever a chance to set things right. The gang was doomed without Hosea. Only he could keep things together. John didn't trust Dutch since the start of the game, he wouldn't put much effort into fixing things. No matter what happens to the gang, he'd always end up leaving with his family. And Arthur isn't much of a leader type. He's pretty bad at communicating and always follows Dutch's dumb plans even if hates them.
For the most part I can agree with that except at the end when things were hopeless. I think Arthur might have been able to talk some sense into Dutch. To your point he did have blind faith with Dutch but with Micah he never got that chance. When Arthur finally stood up to Dutch by insisting they let John go. Dutch would never have left Arthur to die if he didn’t have his new yes man in Micah.
Tah-"I"-ti
I... LIKE YOU MISTER, YOU HAVE A KIND FACE
The kind i liked to punch😡😡
He probably wanted to say "I know." I think Dutch knew internally that he should've put more trust in Arthur. He knew that Arthur just wanted what was best for everyone, but Dutch was just too focused on trying to make it big. Micah took advantage of this and surpassed Arthur's trust. Dutch obviously regretted this decision because of his final betrayal to Micah.
"I... know you're lying, son. You still have $2139999 in your pocket. It should have all gone to the camp."
He said “Red Dead Redemption 2” and then everyone clapped
That part is just like feeling guilty after doing something bad, but after a couple, you do it again.
Dutch was a narcissist. He would only have said something to excuse what he did or try to shift blame.
Yes, eventually. But in that moment I think he was struck. Otherwise he would have ran off with Micah.
To me it's just another example of Dutch's narcissism. The right thing to say was to apologise to Arthur and admit his mistakes....but as a narcissist he is incapable of admitting he's wrong even when for a brief moment he realises it in his head. Confirmed when he goes on to double down and do the same things again only worse. He learned nothing and never changed.
YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE, ANAKIN
“You were the chosen one Arthur! You were sent to destroy the traitors not join them..”
"Bring balance to the Gang, not leave it in darkness!"
Is it in yet
alright bruh😭
"I... I'll just be leaving now..."
He didn't have anything to say. Morgan was right. And after thinking about it, Dutch knew that he couldn't reply anything relevant and honest. He never gave everything that he had. He never completely sacrificed himself. He never told the entire truth to anybody. He was a plain liar and manipulator all along. More or less depending on the people of course, but it seems that absolutely no one around would not be spared of his manipulations.
Dutch is a man who needs the last word. He needs to respond and justify himself in every instance, or show that he’s still in control. In this situation, I like to think that that instinct took over, but he couldn’t say anything, and he couldn’t justify his actions anymore.
Nothing.
"I... am Batman."
"Are you sure? Say on skibidi so I know your telling the truth orthur"
Dutch: I...I... Why didn't you just have some God damn faith!? Arthur: *Cough cough* Aw fuck you Dutch! 💀
"I...I'm sorry, son."
This scene is so heart breaking to me because Dutch clearly wanted to say something to Arthur but the words just didn’t come out
“I…. Am sensing ideas above your station again”
I… I wish I knew how to quit you.
I...I..I HAD A GOD DAMN PLAN !!!
"I... I had a plan.." but really regretful and almost a moment of realization just how much he fucked up.
I really like this one for the reasons you said and his plan always included Arthur right up until the very end when Arthur insisted they let John and them go.
You were my brother Arthur, i loved you
From my point of view, Micah is evil!
Well then you are doubting me!
I wish the scene went on a little and Arthur asked him “Say something Dutch. What are you thinking right now”? “I..I..was thinking I’d like me some of those French fried po-taters…Mmmm Hmmm”.
*I... ain't got too much to say no more...*
Nothing. Thats the whole point of the scene. Dutch has had an answer for EVERYTHING up until this point. We've pretty much never seen Dutch speechless. So him fumbling his words, not knowing what to say, speaks volumes.
Nothing, that's the thing, Dutch it's all game yapin about how he will save everybody and how he is so empathic with the ones that has died, but when the time comes to be a real man, he just stands there, incapable of speaking, cuase he just lost everything, everybody and it's just his fault
the word fuck is barely used in this game so i wish it was utilised in this last segment. i feel like it would’ve had a huge impact kinda like how in the show bojack horseman they only use it once a season.
“Perhaps Arthur… this was your chance. A chance to Red Dead Redemption™ 2 released for PlayStation 4 and Xbox One on October 26th 2018 to critical acclaim and by Rockstar Studios yourself.”
"I... I know." I think that was the moment Dutch finally broke for good. Wether he was always the murderous psycho he became, or if it was that hit to the head that caused him brain damage, I think Dutch finally realised all the mistakes he made that had led up to this moment. It was only when his most loyal follower lay dying at his feet did Dutch realise he was the one who had failed them. But he's the great Dutch Van Der Linde. He's never in the wrong. So he stops himself before he admits his failure out loud.
"...Thank you, my dear" ;)
What about the droid attack on the Wookiees?
"I can't fight my own nature"
There’s no u in Tahiti
I like to think he was about to make up a excuse, but realized these are the consequences of his actions. If I were to guess, I’d think he’d say something like. “I was trying to save us.” Or “I had a plan Arthur, we would have made it if you just followed the plan.” But as I said, Dutch knew at the end he messed up.
I…I wish I’d sucked you off before ya got TB, Orthur
He was speechless because for the first time in his life he realized he was wrong, yet he walked away to keep whatever vestige of pride he had left. Dutch was irredeemable from that point on and deserved what he got in the end. He's a coward.
The actor said he cried in this moment so... Who knows. Maybe Dutch felt guilty but he couldn't say it because of his pride and his paranoia.
I had a phlan.
We need money 😭
"I'm sorry Arthur, but I need to get my red dead redemption 2"
"I'm Sorry" But Dutch was a narcissist and that's why he couldnt finish the sentence
Nothing. It disarmed Dutch because he knew very well it wasn't Arthur's fault that the gang fell apart.
He was literally speechless
"But we need to make noise, and some MONEEEEEEEEH"
Benjamin Byron Davis said that as he walked away from Arthur & Micah, he started crying given how impactful the moment was. I wonder if Dutch's stutter here is actually Davis literally not being able to get the words out
I... I've got a plan.
“I’m sorry”
It's not enough, Arthur! We need more money to go to Tahiti! Trust me, I have a plan.
Two different responses depending on if Dutch either showed a little humility or kept being a deranged selfish lunatic. If he showed a bit of humility maybe something along the lines of, 'I know...son...but...' and he chokes up a bit before walking off. If he kept being the deranged selfish lunatic he could say something like, 'I....it wasn't enough, I needed more...'
I don't want jellybeans
Dutch sucked as a leader would’ve been better with Arthur
I… think you’ve achieved your redemption… your red dead redemption, that is. 2. Red dead redemption 2…
I always liked to imagine it was also just "I ain't got much to say anymore" which he'd go on to tell John at the epilogue.
“I…. Just needed some goddamn faith”
"I know you made thousands of dollars in side missions, Arthur"
"I... had a plan"
I….. I… dont give a fuck about anyone but myself, later bro l, heard the sunrise is nice this time of year, enjoy
Brain injury?????
I... Had plan
“Aight, bet”
I....have a plan
“I have a plan”
“But you didn’t have enough FAITH”
I have no idea what Dutch was going to say but knowing the Dutch character pretty well I can have a pretty good stab at it - I know son but you were expendable. By the end of the game I came to loathe Dutch van de Linde with a passion and played Red Dead Redemption 1 to get my vengeance on him. Spoiler if you haven't completed RDR1 - >!And the loathsome creature that he is denied me even that.!<
"I have a plan"
God damn it Arthur, I had a plan....
Dutch: “Arthur, you lazy bastard! Get up off your ass and go rob something! I don’t want to hear any more of your nonsense about being sick! We need money!!!” Arthur: “I’se sorry Boss! Just let me catch my breath, and I’ll get right on that! Yup-Yup! I’se still yore boy, Boss!”
I-It's your job, right? The guy who kills me... I hope he does it because he hates my guts, not because it's his job.
We need more money
I don’t think he was going to say anything. I think he was going to try to make an excuse but either couldn’t think of one or realized that no excuse can fix the situation.
I always viewed this moment as when Dutch truly lost it. Like what little was left of his sanity snapped like a twig. Throughout the entire game, Dutch always has some grand speech or little quip to fall back on. In this scene, the man who built his gang through his venomous words has nothing left to say.
“I…I’m gonna put some dirt in your eye, Son..”
I... HAVE PLAN!!
"I'm sorry" always my head canon and always will, he had excuses for everyone, everything but maybe told sorry to arthur maybe once in the game for somethign so random
I feel like he was gonna say something to deflect then just couldn't do it, although that could just be me being in denial about dutch actually caring for aurthur
“Whatever you say, Arthur.”
‘It wasn’t enough’
certainly "im sorry son", but he knew it was too late
I… i’m sorry
He was thinking for an excuse for himself. It's an instinct of his. But even his heart wouldn't let him finish his thought.
I… I… I never needed you, son
I feel like it would've been an "I'm sorry"
Probably just “I… I’m sorry”
I'm sorry
"Except some GODDAMN FAAAAYTH ARTHUR!".
"I... had a GODDAMN PLAN!"
"You can't fight gravity, Arthur. You can't fight TUBERCULOSIS! YEEHAW!" 🤠🤠
I'm sorry, I have failed you...
I…I love my horsey and my horsey love me🎶
" but you failed to give me those cheeks, son."
I am sorry
He was speechless, I don’t think he knew what to say
"I... Don't know"
I… I didn’t do it for me, I did it for The Rock.
I always figured that was just Dutch snapping into his normal reflex bullshit talk. But realizing this time it was different and he really did just let one of the only people that actually stayed with him through everything due in such a bad way.
"have to return some videotapes."
“I….I’ll talk to you later then.” “Okay Dutch see ya”