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It sounds like your response was to freeze. Your partner didn't check if you were awake, didn't ask if you wanted to have sex, didn't try to aroused to make sex more comfortable for you, didn't care that you were unresponsive. He used you as a flesh light and raped you. It's not common.
Exactly, you freeze up. I've been in this situation and it's soul destroying. And all the while you keep asking yourself "I'm clearly not into this, why isn't he stopping?"
Seems really crappy and creepy and no, it’s not normal. A guy who cares about you will not only notice if you aren’t interested but will care that you aren’t interested.
I usually just lurk but I’ve had this happen in two previous relationships, both long term partners.
The first began when I was really inexperienced and didn’t know whether it was normal or not… that relationship was abusive in a lot of ways (controlling/manipulation/emotional) and had a really unhealthy power dynamic. I didn’t realise until very late and left the relationship. He ticked all the narc boxes. Not sure if this feels familiar at all but he would literally start whilst I was asleep…
The second was similar although not *abusive*… or at least I wouldn’t call it that anyway. He also seemed to think consent was granted… I was in kind of a dark place though and probably rebounded with him. I did actually explain to him that I felt really uncomfortable with him just having sex with me whilst I was semi asleep or just not into it and that it felt non consensual. He later tried to pressure me into other things I wasn’t comfortable with and I ended the relationship for various reasons - that being one. Again, he wasn’t the nicest guy and I feel like that might be a pattern tbh.
I just wanted to say I’ve had this same thing with two guys, and you’re feeling that this is not okay is totally valid. Talk to him about it… but also maybe spend some time thinking about the rest of the relationship - do you feel taken for granted in other ways? How does he treat you otherwise?
Hmmm sounds like this might be more than just a sex problem… sorry you’re going through this! I’m not sure they mean to treat us like an object but that’s kind of exactly how it is. It’s as if they just think you’re there no matter what.
I am a man. But unlike your husband I am not a rapist. That was non-consensual unsolicited sex. Or to use the technical term: rape.
You deal with it by getting the hell out of there ASAP.
You are not taking this anywhere near seriously enough.
She said asking permission has never been a requirement for her. When she said stop, he did. Under those specific conditions stated by OP directly, rapist might not fit. Although the default is always getting enthusiastic consent, some people will express that it's fine to just go for it and if they get into it great, but if not, they'll let you know. OP sounds like they fall in the latter camp.
If a person is non-responsive, that is generally legally considered rape regardless of what they normally would say. It doesn’t matter if OP normally doesn’t give verbal permission (honestly I think that rule needs to change, in light of what just happened) - if a person is completely unresponsive, you are legally supposed to interpret that as them NOT consenting. “Oh well she didn’t say anything so I thought it was okay” is not an actual defence.
The reason for that is because a large percentage of people freeze during rape, meaning that there often IS no clear indication that a person does not want sex. This is entirely outside of the victim’s control. If it was legal to fuck a non-responsive person, then none of those victims would have a single leg to stand on, because their fight or flight response decided to be a jerk. Obviously, it would be completely unacceptable to just disregard ALL of those rape victims because of how their body reacted in the moment - so the law takes that into account.
Legally speaking, ONLY an enthusiastic yes (which doesn’t necessarily have to be verbal, before anyone bitches about that) actually counts as consent. Anything less, any kind of trepidation or uncertainty, is unacceptable and you are not supposed to proceed.
They can’t. It’s just a group of entitled men saying the same shit, “wah, not rape, not rape.”
Good, let’s all stick something up their asses and wait to see if they complain when we women just “go for it.”
Can't. I'm a woman who has no problem with my long term committed partner starting/ having sex with me while asleep or heavily intoxicated. I usually sleep nude to make access easier too. I would never call it close to assault (Been SA'd and raped) because it's due to my explicit consent and if I wake up even slightly and say stop or not right now, even if I do it from my sleep state, he does immediately and will just hold /cuddle me.
But that’s your situation and not at all this situation. I’m also someone who sometimes likes it when my partner touches me and does things while I’m asleep as that has been discussed. But OP was awake and didn’t make sounds and her partner continued. For OP to react like this, it clearly isn’t normal and wasn’t discussed. When your partner is awake, even if tired, and gives you no response, why on earth would you keep going or think it’s fine? Of course OP feels weird.
>I'm a woman who has no problem with my long term committed partner starting/ having sex with me while asleep or heavily intoxicated
this is irrelevant to the post and SHOULD be irrelevant to your judgement here. you are not op
So what would you have expected him to do in this situation exactly? Because if I, a simple reader are confused, I think your husband must be very confused.
You say you do not require him verbally asking permission and you have been fine with this in the past?
She said herself that she doesn’t require asking permission and is ok with late night sex. So if she doesn’t say anything how is he supposed to know? He stopped the moment she told him to. It’s clearly not rape.
It’s really fucked how dramatic weirdos like you have to call everything rape. Rape is a specific thing, not just anything you don’t like.
That does not make it not-rape.
> Rape is a specific thing, not just anything you don’t like.
Rape is a specific thing, which if you open a dictionary, is what OP has undergone, over and over. OPs problem is that she's ok with being raped.
Yes - it is a specific thing and THIS situation does NOT fit the definition.
Stop throwing around the word rape. Its a serious issue and while OP has regrets about not saying no, by giving blanket permission to not have to ask for permission to have sex and never saying no and him stopping as soon as she told him to, ITS NOT RAPE.
Her husband DOES need to raise his standards though if he thinks her being half asleep is good sex.
There are non-verbal forms of consent. Someone not engaging or making a sound=no non-verbal consent, unless it's something previously agreed on means it's okay. Which they obviously never did agree on. If you've given your consent to someone having sex with you/touching you when you're asleep, that's all good. You've consented. Everyone's okay with it. But this is a completely different situation.
Is it obvious? She says that she “doesn’t require asking,” and is “ok with late night sex.” Sounds like she consented to that previously.
So if inside your own head you decide that you no longer consent but never tell your partner, how is that rape?
Seriously. I love sex with my partner and have a high drive anyway, so if he works late and I'm asleep, and he wants it too, why not try? I 1000% know he's not gonna hurt me in any way. It's not an arrangement everyone would want and that's okay. But I'm not them.
I'm good. Why are you so bent out of shape about what *I* want MY consent to look like and am happy with? That's pretty disturbing that you think everyone should only give consent how you think it's appropriate. My assaults were over a decade ago and I'm close to 40 lol I can decide what I am and am not okay with and the best thing I learned in therapy is that NOBODY gets to dictate what I can and cannot consent to except me.
> Why are you so bent out of shape about what I want MY consent to look like and am happy with?
I only care about it because your advice to OP is based on it, and it is wrong. You are advising OP to accept something that really is *not* acceptable at all, because *you* are OK with it.
> the best thing I learned in therapy is that NOBODY gets to dictate what I can and cannot consent to except me
Ok, so let's call your choice "unusual" rather than wrong. Surely you can see that? And as such you should not be suggesting to OP that it's normal or acceptable.
No, i said I can't call this rape or even adjacent due to OP expressing she had never required he ask for consent first in the past. My advice was to communicate a change in consent parameters so everyone is on the same page.
Therapists don’t determine what is or isn’t okay for the individual in therapy. That is a blatant disregard for autonomy, which is a foundational principle of any therapeutic relationship.
Jesus Christ you do not live in reality. If they've never required spoken consent in the past he wouldn't be a rapist for this, especially since he stopped right away when she said stop lmfao
Don't get me wrong, if she was asleep or he kept going when she said stop then sure, but not from the description she gave
what is real rape? how would you define it?
the "severity" of rape is a pointless thing to judge. everyone who has experienced what could be deemed rape has different feelings about it.
It is not rape ffs. Accusing someone of "gatekeeping rape" because they are not a moron and understand what words mean it's very shiity, but hey I guess that is you.
It's also not murder or arson or a million other things.
Please grow up and try to actually engage your brain.
This is absolutely not common with men. I mean... It's rape. You didn't consent. Unless you have told him in the past that you are ok with him fucking you while you are asleep. This is super weird.
No. It happened to me for years with my ex and I thought it was normal because he was my boyfriend. Most of the times I was fully asleep and woke up because of pain or movement. I tricked myself into believing it was normal until my best friend heard me complaining about it, she had a conversation with him, explained it was rape and he “apologized”, he stopped for a while but kept doing it after a couple of months, not as constantly but very often still, he even did it next to our friends while we were on trips and sleeping… He continued until one time he did the same thing with my best friend while both of us were unconscious, (she was in a very very vulnerable mental state at the moment).
I broke up with him in good terms because I didn’t know any of this and my best friend found the courage to tell me, after it. The thing is that we were gaslit to the point we couldn’t believe he was a rapist, he pretended to be the best person for years, we all let our guard down. I met my now boyfriend before we knew about the situation with my best friend, and for context I told him about the “sleeping sex” and he said that it wasn’t ok, that it was not a common thing to do and that my ex was abusive even if I didn’t perceive it as such. I was SA multiple times in my childhood and my boyfriend got very triggered by it when I told him, and he got specially angry when I told him about my ex… it took him a year to convince me I was being raped.
Ew. So he really couldn't give a crap whether you want sex or not. He'll take what he wants when he wants it without even asking. How lovely for you!
I'd explain (shame it's necessary) that I'd rather be involved in sex. So maybe he could at the very least make sure I was awake first.
Well if it wasn’t consensual and it crossed your boundary then it was assault/rape. My partner is into free-use AND they explicitly tell me they’d like that sort of thing no matter what the scenario. But if that’s not you then it was assault/rape
This IS rape, I hope you understand that , even if it was your husband,it was done without consent, so think it of that way
Edit: this is not common for men, him saying oh sorry is the nail in the coffin, whether this is going to end your marriage or not depends upon you,but take some time apart for sure, go to your parents/friends house for while and decide what you wanna do
i mean i don’t think it is because i didn’t say no? like the whole time was thinking “i can say stop if i want”. like sometimes we’ll start having sex without me moaning or really responding because i’m half asleep then i’ll get into it. i’m not against it happening i’m just lazy. this time was more the me laying there in the dark silent while he kept fucking me and it felt super weird? like i was just a piece of furniture or something
> like i was just a piece of furniture or something
Which is clearly how he sees you: to him, you are just a utensil.
Not a living breathing equal partner.
I'm sorry you felt violated and I think it is a good idea to talk about consent and boundaries again with your boyfriend.
I really don't mean this in a accusatory way, but can I ask how he was supposed to tell the difference between a situation like this *sometimes we’ll start having sex without me moaning or really responding because i’m half asleep then i’ll get into it*, which I'm guessing you're fine with (?) and a situation like this *.. me laying there in the dark silent while he kept fucking me and it felt super weird? like i was just a piece of furniture or something*?
first situation — we start having sex and i warm up and start moaning
second situation — we start having sex and i lay there in silence and don’t move at all and he keeps fucking me without stopping to see if somethings wrong
But you said:
> sometimes we’ll start having sex *without me moaning or really responding* because i’m half asleep then i’ll get into it
What's the timeline here? How long do you usually stay silent, before you become responsive and start moaning?
Okay there's a bit of a difference between 10 seconds and 2 minutes, so I totally understand why you would feel violated. And it would feel super weird to me, too, that someone would be into fucking me when I'm not being responsive.
That said, I think it's possible your husband really didn't realize you weren't into it. It's totally valid to feel violated, but that doesn't automatically turn your husband into a rapist. Concent can be complicated, especially non verbal consent and especially if you suffer with panic attacks or dissociation during sex.
This is a really emotionally charged topic and people are going to comment, based on their own experiences, without fully understanding your situation.
I think you should discuss this with your partner again once emotions are a little more calm, without making any accusations.
Explain to him how *you* felt, but try not to tell him what you think his intentions were. Maybe the two of you can work this out. If you want this relationship to last, there definitely needs to be a conversation about consent again, because the way things currently are, is obviously not working.
You need to tell him how to avoid situations like this in the future. Maybe telling him he needs to wait for verbal consent before penetration would be helpful?
Sry for the unsolicited advice, but I hope this is at least a little helpful and all the best!
Prior consent exists if she has given him the go- ahead to try anyway when she's asleep. If she had and she is comfortably knowing she can retract consent and he'll respect it, that's a while different dynamic. It's not rape in that circumstance.
OP sounds more confused about how a guy enjoys any of it, though, without a responsive partner, and unless you have that kink, I don't think it can be explained because I don't get how either.
i think i’m more confused about why he didn’t stop as i obviously wasn’t enjoying it. i know that if i hadn’t said anything he would’ve just kept going until he was done and that bothers me
Then you need revisit the consent parameters. If you've been fine with things starting on the state they did prior but have decided you'd rather only have them going while fully conscious, you have to tell him this.
yea i understand that. this time feels somewhat different though as I’m usually at least a tad responsive before the sex starts. i was feeling depressed and exhausted and i think i just kinda froze in the moment. it makes me worry that my body language was so obviously different and unreceptive but it didn’t seem to bother him.
This can be a really gray area because everyone has a different perception. My current wife loves to be woken up by sex. That took me a little while to understand and get on the same page because she doesn’t want me waking her up by rubbing on her or kissing on her. If you’re going to wake her up, she wants you to just go straight to business. But past experience with exes, that would’ve not been a good idea at all. I would’ve had to warm them up/wake them up a little first. Point I’m trying to make is that he obviously misunderstood how it works with you. Seeing as this seems like the first time, I’d cut him some slack. Explain to him why it feels uncomfortable and weird to you. Don’t be vague about it either. Be as straight up as possible. If it happens again. That’s a different story, but I could tell you 100% my wife would be just fine with this scenario happening, although I don’t think I’ve ever had her be non responsive once it started and I don’t think I would be into that. And that also doesn’t negate how you feel about it. So just make your feelings known and get on the same page.
I do feel for the guy a little bit because you said in another comment that sometimes you’ll be laying there quiet until you get into it. That alone can make it a little confusing, because how long is it until you’re uncomfortable or into it? Where is the line? That’s a really blurry line, especially when hormones are flying like they do during sex, and time is even harder to keep track of…. I’d just say that you need to vocalize that it did make you feel weird and maybe you need to have clear signs that you’re more into it or not… I don’t know, but this sounds like communication and boundary setting need to be better established for this situation. Obviously I don’t know your full situation but I can only equate it to if my wife suddenly stopped me and felt uncomfortable about it when I thought it was ok/ normally welcomed and I would feel terrible for causing that but also confused. I think it’s very possible this is how your husband feels
Then that is something you need to talk to him about. Tell him how it made you feel.
Communication is really important in a relationship. Even if you think something is obvious it is not always. Especially when both people are tired, stressed and just reading situations wrong.
You two could really benefit from couples therapy because there is a lot going on in your relationship. It sounds like outside of sex you feel taken for granted based upon your other comments.
in the sense that i’m fine to just roll into foreplay with having to be asked if it’s okay. i feel like being silent during being fingered and not moving at all is sort of an obvious sign i’m not interested. im aware i could have just said stop before it even started i don’t know why i didn’t
I mean to me that means you can walk up to her and start touching her... While she is awake. Unless she literally told him he can use her as a sex doll.
She didn't state she has a free use policy, just that no verbal permission is needed. By the wording of the post, it sure as shit sounds like non-verbal permission of being an active participant in sex is where the consent part comes in.
Fucking an unresponsive person is rape.
Her comments about her reactions to this are heartbreaking. She has classic rape victim responses. She disassociates. And so on. He's raped her so often she can't even grasp that it's wrong.
Unresponsive is not the same as half-asleep. Patients on a ventilator in ICU are unresponsive. Half-asleep people are half-awake also so they can know and articulate if they have some sort of issue.
You've said you don't require him to ask permission every time before initiating sex, and have had sex late at night with him before.
He stopped when you asked him to stop.
Not sure what the problem is exactly here? Do you expect him to read your mind?
I think the problem is how strange it is for her husband to keep having sex when she obviously isn’t moaning, kissing, or showing any signs she’s into it. He basically decided to just have sex with her without body language showing she consents.
I don't find it strange at all. My bf often wakes me up by sexual touching or starting sex; I'm mostly into it but if I'm not then I'll tell him so and he stops.
Body language is not the same as consent. OP says they previously agreed that verbal consent was not needed every time before sex. If she wanted to change that rule then she needed to tell her bf.
There are a lot of women who don't participate a lot during sex or moan a lot, that means nothing.
Well she said she will usually moan or kiss back. I’m sorry but if I’m having sex and If my partner isn’t showing any signs of being into it, I’d stop and ask if they are okay…
Not everyone is like you and "usually" is not the same as "every single time".
If my partner had the exact same sex the exact same way with me every single time, then after the 4th or 5th time I'd stop him and ask if HE was okay... Because I happen to like to not follow a script, if you catch my drift...
just read your updates. I hope you’re doing okay. we all support and feel for you. I hope this is able to be a wakeup call to you.
do you have any friends or family you can stay with for a while?
yea i feel like a blindfolds been ripped off my eyes and im suddenly seeing all these details of prior events and im just reeling. like one time i think he might actually have semi raped me when he had complete emotional leverage over me and knew it and i felt i literally couldn’t say no and he came inside me afterwards and i just burst into tears. ended up with a chemical pregnancy and it was awful. like i could go on and on and on im fkn shellshocked rn
I’m so sorry. what hes doing is absolutely not normal, not okay, and not consensual. For your original question, NO! normal men cannot get off and enjoy themselves when their partner is like a corpse or in distress. Because they see their partner as a real human they love. Only rapists remain hard for that. He is a foul human mistake.
And I’m sorry on your original post, the brigade of reddit rapists who came in bashing you and downvoting everything. The problem is: the dont want to admit what they’ve been doing/would do if they have a second of a chance is not consensual. They really struggle with that concept so they get enraged. But that’s because reddit is full of awful basement dwelling troglodyte misogynists. Please listen to the sensible advice you’ve received. your husband has anger issues and he is okay with using you like a fleshlight.
the only thing I can plead from you: please try and find someone to stay with for a bit so you can process this all in peace. DO NOT let him touch you, and dont do any favors for him like cooking or anything. If he ever tries to touch or have sex with you again, I can’t emphasize this enough, you are so strong and brave and you absolutely have the right to say NO! DONT TOUCH ME! just resist every urge to freeze or be agreeable. Say with me: no no no no no no no no no no
> i think i got triggered by something and started dissociating. i just stared at the window and kinda felt i was leaving my body for a minute
You are describing what many people experience when they are being raped.
She's also describing what many people experience who have been raped before, even if the sex they are currently having is 100% consensual. Getting triggered doesn't automatically turn consensual sex into non consensual sex. It can be really really hard for your partner to tell what's going on with you in a situation like this.
> She's also describing what many people experience who have been raped before, even if the sex they are currently having is 100% consensual.
Yes, absolutely. I really should have said exactly that instead, that's much more relevant here, and avoids the whole "was it rape yes/no" debate.
It’s a hard one because after being married you would think that you would be able to shrug him off, or say something! I don’t think it’s rape, but it was unwanted sexual attention, that maybe he wasn’t aware he was doing anything wrong, as he stopped when she finally said something.
I’m not blaming her I’m just saying how it might have been. Also communication is massively lacking, this needs to be addressed.
My ex boyfriend used to do that alot and also guilttrip and pressure me into sex. Leave. Not caring remotely how you feel furing sex is the biggest red flag but starting stuff while youre unresponsive is rape.
I couldn’t even fathom how a guy would enjoy that. I wouldn’t even be able to maintain the erectile fortitude required to finish the act. WTF is wrong with your husband?
You need to get into therapy as soon as possible, and know that you may have to see a few different therapists before you find the right one. Your husband is an abuser in sooooo many different ways, and I hope you find the strength, and support to get out of that marriage. It is not fair to you OR your kids to remain in an environment like that. This is how the abuse cycle continues. I wish you nothing but the best.
Uh… I think it’s all depends on couple. I personally know one that accept this things. She says she doesn’t mind if they didn’t sleep arguing or with cold treatment she will enjoy n be okay with this. I was confused too but that’s why communication so important. Cause they had this agreement before this happened. So him doing it without talking with u before not good, especially if u had panic attacks during sexual interaction. If this keep happening n not just one n only situation u need proper talk with him if both doesn’t want lose relationship. If after talk he keeps doing smth u don’t accept… yk what to do
I’ve had this happen to me unfortunately with a couple longer term partners. I also think it’s really fucking weird and gross, but for some reason it does seem to be common with men. They feel so comfortable with you and like they “already have permission” that they just think it’s ok late at night even if you’re unresponsive to .. yes literally use u as a flesh light. It’s absolutely wild. I hope it’s not THAT common cause I’d love for my future partners to not do that, and made the boundary when it did happen in my relationships as well. Sorry this happened to you and I hope he doesn’t do it again after realizing how not ok with it you were. Hearing the panic attack thing too tho is concerning… seems like this man doesn’t look for your signs of enjoyment or permission even in the past and that sucks. Sending you love
yea i feel like he just wanted to have sex and i was there. pretty sure he noticed im usually annoyingly loud. he followed me to the bathroom and said sorry again and i asked if was okay and i said “mmm” because i didnt know what else to say in the moment. then he went back to bed
It is extremely common. You have to voice your feelings to him immediately when it happens. As you said, you don't require verbal confirmation to give consent, so he really had no way of knowing how you felt.
> I’m not a man obviously but I feel like I probably wouldn’t be into having sex with someone that wasn’t into it or remotely receptive.
I fail to see how that has anything to do with being a man or what exactly you’re insinuating…
Is it common with men? I don’t really know. What I know is some couples have arrangements where they give prior consent to being “free-use” while sleeping or whatever. Emphasis on the prior consent. If that’s what you guys had, then that makes more sense on what HE was doing.
If he just all of a sudden started doing it, then that’s on him. Don’t plaster it as a “man thing”.
She refers to it as a man thing because it is very common in western culture for men to claim that once they get going they can't easily stop.
For you to act like this incident and her reaction are in a vacuum outside of that very, very, extremely, common, and solely male-related trope, of oh baby you just got me started, you can't expect me to just turn it off like that, is disingenuous and rude.
Ah I see. Well, I can’t really relate cause I like my women conscious but if it’s something you were uncomfortable, I would say just talk to him. Set up further boundaries on sex while unresponsive if that’s his kink.
I also am a man, & not a rapist.
I can tell when my girlfriend isn't in the mood, and I don't push it. If she pretends she's into it just to please me, I can tell when she's not into it, and stop. If she says ow, I stop and try to figure out what hurt her, was it me? Leg cramp, etc.
Your husband basically raped you, regardless if you "don't need to give verbal permission". You sound like an object he can use whenever he pleases. Obviously don't know the guy and wasn't there. Maybe he's just dumb AF and can't take the clues but either way, not right. Being in a relationship doesn't give you free will to stick your dick in your SO at any time you'd like.
Edit: yes I understand it's not technically rape with her saying I don't require verbal permission, but it's still "rapey". She was half asleep, kind of out of it from the sounds. While I might text my girl something like hey, wanna play when you get home?, in person I've never had to give or ask for verbal permission. It just happens. Couldn't imagine fucking my girl while she lays there half asleep with 0 reaction before telling me to stop. Dudes never heard of foreplay? If anything, get her in the mood.
This is rape.
I'm a cis straight woman. My fiance has absolutely no interest in sex unless I am also fully participating. It is uncomfortable to think you might as well be unconscious and he'd still be into it.
You have every right to feel violated and scared. You were raped.
I saw a lot of people in the comments calling it rape so I showed the post to a friend who sadly suffered from sex*al abuse in the past, this was her opinion:
“It’s weird, but calling it rape it’s almost like an insult for me, people just don’t know what they talk about. As for the problem, she said she don’t require verbal consent and he did stopped when she asked, so at least he is conscious about what he was doing and respected her decision. What trouble me the most is that shitty apology, “oh sorry”, like, that’s all? At least ask her if she is okay now! If I was her, I would have a long chat with him about boundaries or kinks, I’m not into things like non verbal agreement but maybe they are? I understand how she feels cause it’s weird and bizarre indeed but I think it can be solved with open communication.”
That was her opinion.
As for mine, I agree with my friend in almost everything, in my case I think that the fact that he didn’t stopped even when you didn’t reacted is really weird, as a man I don’t think I would ever do that to my partner unless we discussed it before.
Try to have a long chat with him, be as honest and open as you can, if you feel like he is minimizing the topic then he probably has a problem.
Good luck!
Also a rape survivor+childhood SA survivor. Other people's experience of rape differing from mine doesn't invalidate my trauma. Rape=nonconsensual sex. There was no consent here. Verbal consent isn't always needed, but there was no non-verbal either. The most common response to rape is freeze, which can include not being able to say no.
Your friend needs to get a grip and stop gatekeeping. It's harmful, and incredibly self centered - this isn't about her. Fuck all the way off with that bs.
> calling it rape it’s almost like an insult for me
She does not get to gatekeep what is rape. It was non-consensual sex. That is what rape is. Just because her experience was worse, does not alter the definition. And just because OPs experience was not as dreadful does not in any way diminish your friend's experience just because it has the same name.
Rape is by definition non consensual sex -- OP and her husband had an agreement that she was cool with this in the past and never articulated a change in expectation. He is not a mind reader. By definition, this is not rape.
She can feel angry about it but she NEEDS to articulate changes in expectations if you are going to have a free use situation going on. If that has always been their standard then its grade A Asshole move to call him a rapist because SHE changed the rules without telling him.
Rape is wrong in EVERY situation - but so is calling someone a rapist when it absolutely is not rape.
>How do i go about dealing with this?
Idk, how about you use your words next time and say stop when you're uncomfortable instead of letting your husband continue as if nothing was wrong and then retroactively getting mad at him for it.
Uhm what? It was rape (unless she gave him free use even when she's sleeping) but she can't get mad because she acted like she was asleep? Maybe she did that hoping he would lose interest. There isn't one universal way to react to an assault. She did tell him to stop. Not immediately because she probably thought he would lose interest but she did tell him to stop.
She explicitly says in her post that she doesn't mind having sex late and night and doesn't require verbal asking of permission. This was not assault nor rape. She is explicit that she does not require asking of permission and she never said no.
By throwing around the word rape or assault like you are, you are making light of a VERY serious issue.
This is not that. He is not responsible for her regret or reaction when she has set the standards and the rules for their sex relationship. In a marital relationship you HAVE TO ARTICULATE rule changes. You can't just change the rules, not tell the person and then claim its a crime because you don't like the way it turned out. That is just wrong on EVERY level.
>She is explicit that she does not require asking of permission
OP clarified that they dont require permission to touch. That she would show non-verbal consemt through participation and enjoyment. In this case he did not have verbal or non-verbal consent. It was non-consensual sex. Considering that he knows that she has been having panic attacks/freeze responses during sex does not make it any better.
You didn't say that. That's what it is. If you didn't give consent, what's that called? You said you didn't want it to happen, what's that called? You eventually said no and left...I am not making things up. Calling a spade a spade.
So you can't withdraw consent? You could be in the middle of sex and withdraw consent. In this situation it's the husband who has been wronged? The entire reason she is here is because she didn't like what happened... But the husband is the victim? She said late sex is ok and verbal consent isn't needed... That to me means I can walk up and touch her or initiate sex without asking her. Obviously I wouldn't just pull her pants down and go to town. She didn't say anything about being ok with him fucking her while she is asleep. She said she didn't move or make a sound... The husband would have continued if she didn't tell him to stop.... But it's her fault? Again consent can be withdrawn at any point.
That's not common amongst men, or even women. That's common among rapist. That was textbook rape. A non consensual action is rape, no matter if it's with your friend, a relative, a stranger or your spouse.
I think the commenters are being harsh on the OP’s husband. Husband and wife don’t explicitly talk about having sex. Many times they have to be discreet and not make much noise.
It could be a misunderstanding that OP’s husband misunderstood OP. He went ahead thinking all is well and was taken aback at OP’s comment after she coming back from bathroom.
I strongly feel, OP should have have discussion with her husband and explain him that she was not into mood and suddenly realized what’s happening with her in sleep and that led to state of shock for her. He should be careful moving forward.
It happens, I have done something like this and realized that it was in appropriate.
That doesn’t mean that I am a rapist, insensitive husband and always engage in non-consensual sex with my partner .
What is wrong with u people, firstly u are married to this man
Secondly u should have talked to him to see what he says about it but no its social media u chose, lady we don't know u and how u usually handle ur sex affairs with ur partner and then when it makes u uncomfortable what y'all be doin u, should communicate with ur partner don't let ppl get into ur head.
I don't really understand you said you was almost asleep, but let him continue for 2 minutes and then say stop so you wasn't asleep.So why don't you tell him To stop straight away. It's like you wanted it to happen.
This is an assumption but I'm guessing being on the brink of sleep, after a short amount of time of you not *waking up*, you probably expected him to stop. Thinking it'd be easier to turn him down that way and you can just doze right back off.. but when he didn't stop, now it became disturbing and led you to disassociate, until you reached a point you were angry enough to speak on it.
I have had a very similar experience, and you're right for feeling disturbed, especially considering your prior experiences. To me, this was not an *end the relationship* kind of experience, bc sometimes I'm turned on by being messed with in my sleep and my partner knows that. But I did have a very serious discussion with them, also relating to past experiences, and how to avoid in the future (if I don't respond at all please discontinue). That discussion and response worked for me, it may not work for you and that's ok. It is important for you to feel safe and trust your partner.
Then why don’t you have a conversation with him about how he initiates sex? Maybe change the rules and tell him that he needs to ask for permission now.
That should avoid this in the future.
Dude should have asked first, he's selfish, not braindead.
I think we should all check with our partners. My husband ALWAYS asks 'hey, wanna fool around?' Because we're not always on the same page, and he's elated when I excitedly say YEAAH. I do the same with him, and if one od is not sure, one of us will sometimes offer "well, let's suck face and see where it goes". Sometimes it goes, sometimes it don't. We had a good time and neither of us feels fucking weird about it because we're talking to eachother.
So I genuinely don't understand why other people have to be weird about simply asking.
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It sounds like your response was to freeze. Your partner didn't check if you were awake, didn't ask if you wanted to have sex, didn't try to aroused to make sex more comfortable for you, didn't care that you were unresponsive. He used you as a flesh light and raped you. It's not common.
Exactly, you freeze up. I've been in this situation and it's soul destroying. And all the while you keep asking yourself "I'm clearly not into this, why isn't he stopping?"
Sadly it is common
Seems really crappy and creepy and no, it’s not normal. A guy who cares about you will not only notice if you aren’t interested but will care that you aren’t interested.
I usually just lurk but I’ve had this happen in two previous relationships, both long term partners. The first began when I was really inexperienced and didn’t know whether it was normal or not… that relationship was abusive in a lot of ways (controlling/manipulation/emotional) and had a really unhealthy power dynamic. I didn’t realise until very late and left the relationship. He ticked all the narc boxes. Not sure if this feels familiar at all but he would literally start whilst I was asleep… The second was similar although not *abusive*… or at least I wouldn’t call it that anyway. He also seemed to think consent was granted… I was in kind of a dark place though and probably rebounded with him. I did actually explain to him that I felt really uncomfortable with him just having sex with me whilst I was semi asleep or just not into it and that it felt non consensual. He later tried to pressure me into other things I wasn’t comfortable with and I ended the relationship for various reasons - that being one. Again, he wasn’t the nicest guy and I feel like that might be a pattern tbh. I just wanted to say I’ve had this same thing with two guys, and you’re feeling that this is not okay is totally valid. Talk to him about it… but also maybe spend some time thinking about the rest of the relationship - do you feel taken for granted in other ways? How does he treat you otherwise?
lol i’ve been saying for a while i feel taken for granted and unappreciated. didn’t even get me a card for mother’s day.
Hmmm sounds like this might be more than just a sex problem… sorry you’re going through this! I’m not sure they mean to treat us like an object but that’s kind of exactly how it is. It’s as if they just think you’re there no matter what.
holy fuck i was literally thinking this WORD FOR WORD when i opened your comment.
I am a man. But unlike your husband I am not a rapist. That was non-consensual unsolicited sex. Or to use the technical term: rape. You deal with it by getting the hell out of there ASAP. You are not taking this anywhere near seriously enough.
She said asking permission has never been a requirement for her. When she said stop, he did. Under those specific conditions stated by OP directly, rapist might not fit. Although the default is always getting enthusiastic consent, some people will express that it's fine to just go for it and if they get into it great, but if not, they'll let you know. OP sounds like they fall in the latter camp.
If a person is non-responsive, that is generally legally considered rape regardless of what they normally would say. It doesn’t matter if OP normally doesn’t give verbal permission (honestly I think that rule needs to change, in light of what just happened) - if a person is completely unresponsive, you are legally supposed to interpret that as them NOT consenting. “Oh well she didn’t say anything so I thought it was okay” is not an actual defence. The reason for that is because a large percentage of people freeze during rape, meaning that there often IS no clear indication that a person does not want sex. This is entirely outside of the victim’s control. If it was legal to fuck a non-responsive person, then none of those victims would have a single leg to stand on, because their fight or flight response decided to be a jerk. Obviously, it would be completely unacceptable to just disregard ALL of those rape victims because of how their body reacted in the moment - so the law takes that into account. Legally speaking, ONLY an enthusiastic yes (which doesn’t necessarily have to be verbal, before anyone bitches about that) actually counts as consent. Anything less, any kind of trepidation or uncertainty, is unacceptable and you are not supposed to proceed.
I know, you are right, but even so. Let's call it 'rape-adjacent.'
It's not rape or rape adjacent
Explain how
They can’t. It’s just a group of entitled men saying the same shit, “wah, not rape, not rape.” Good, let’s all stick something up their asses and wait to see if they complain when we women just “go for it.”
1. That would explain it. 1. That would solve it.
Can't. I'm a woman who has no problem with my long term committed partner starting/ having sex with me while asleep or heavily intoxicated. I usually sleep nude to make access easier too. I would never call it close to assault (Been SA'd and raped) because it's due to my explicit consent and if I wake up even slightly and say stop or not right now, even if I do it from my sleep state, he does immediately and will just hold /cuddle me.
But that’s your situation and not at all this situation. I’m also someone who sometimes likes it when my partner touches me and does things while I’m asleep as that has been discussed. But OP was awake and didn’t make sounds and her partner continued. For OP to react like this, it clearly isn’t normal and wasn’t discussed. When your partner is awake, even if tired, and gives you no response, why on earth would you keep going or think it’s fine? Of course OP feels weird.
>I'm a woman who has no problem with my long term committed partner starting/ having sex with me while asleep or heavily intoxicated this is irrelevant to the post and SHOULD be irrelevant to your judgement here. you are not op
Exactly.
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um … lol no i didn’t. i said he doesn’t need to ask permission.
So what would you have expected him to do in this situation exactly? Because if I, a simple reader are confused, I think your husband must be very confused. You say you do not require him verbally asking permission and you have been fine with this in the past?
there is no such thing as "not needing consent"
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what consent? she didn't verbally or physically consent.
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You don't get to gatekeep what rape is. It's not a competition.
Words have meaning. This clearly isn’t rape. Stop being so histrionic.
It was non-consensual sex. That is what rape is.
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I see your point. As she says, she COULD say "no". But she also says she froze and dissociated, which makes me worry for her.
She said herself that she doesn’t require asking permission and is ok with late night sex. So if she doesn’t say anything how is he supposed to know? He stopped the moment she told him to. It’s clearly not rape. It’s really fucked how dramatic weirdos like you have to call everything rape. Rape is a specific thing, not just anything you don’t like.
That does not make it not-rape. > Rape is a specific thing, not just anything you don’t like. Rape is a specific thing, which if you open a dictionary, is what OP has undergone, over and over. OPs problem is that she's ok with being raped.
Yes - it is a specific thing and THIS situation does NOT fit the definition. Stop throwing around the word rape. Its a serious issue and while OP has regrets about not saying no, by giving blanket permission to not have to ask for permission to have sex and never saying no and him stopping as soon as she told him to, ITS NOT RAPE. Her husband DOES need to raise his standards though if he thinks her being half asleep is good sex.
There are non-verbal forms of consent. Someone not engaging or making a sound=no non-verbal consent, unless it's something previously agreed on means it's okay. Which they obviously never did agree on. If you've given your consent to someone having sex with you/touching you when you're asleep, that's all good. You've consented. Everyone's okay with it. But this is a completely different situation.
Is it obvious? She says that she “doesn’t require asking,” and is “ok with late night sex.” Sounds like she consented to that previously. So if inside your own head you decide that you no longer consent but never tell your partner, how is that rape?
No it wasn't. Just grow up.
Open a dictionary.
This is pathetic and you are embarassing yourself. Please try to educate yourself instead of talking nonsense here.
the only person that determines that is ME and i don’t remember consenting
Honestly, these people are to stupid to understand that their ignorance in throwing that word around cheapens the word.
What you are describing is incredibly disturbing and not healthy. You might need to reconsider how much you’ve actually healed and get some help.
My therapist disagrees lol
It’s crazy that people are trying to tell you what is and isn’t rape in your own relationship. This place is so fucked.
Seriously. I love sex with my partner and have a high drive anyway, so if he works late and I'm asleep, and he wants it too, why not try? I 1000% know he's not gonna hurt me in any way. It's not an arrangement everyone would want and that's okay. But I'm not them.
A THERAPIST is OK with that? Perhaps you should find one who is better. Because what you are accepting is wildly unhealthy.
I'm good. Why are you so bent out of shape about what *I* want MY consent to look like and am happy with? That's pretty disturbing that you think everyone should only give consent how you think it's appropriate. My assaults were over a decade ago and I'm close to 40 lol I can decide what I am and am not okay with and the best thing I learned in therapy is that NOBODY gets to dictate what I can and cannot consent to except me.
> Why are you so bent out of shape about what I want MY consent to look like and am happy with? I only care about it because your advice to OP is based on it, and it is wrong. You are advising OP to accept something that really is *not* acceptable at all, because *you* are OK with it. > the best thing I learned in therapy is that NOBODY gets to dictate what I can and cannot consent to except me Ok, so let's call your choice "unusual" rather than wrong. Surely you can see that? And as such you should not be suggesting to OP that it's normal or acceptable.
No, i said I can't call this rape or even adjacent due to OP expressing she had never required he ask for consent first in the past. My advice was to communicate a change in consent parameters so everyone is on the same page.
Therapists don’t determine what is or isn’t okay for the individual in therapy. That is a blatant disregard for autonomy, which is a foundational principle of any therapeutic relationship.
Jesus Christ you do not live in reality. If they've never required spoken consent in the past he wouldn't be a rapist for this, especially since he stopped right away when she said stop lmfao Don't get me wrong, if she was asleep or he kept going when she said stop then sure, but not from the description she gave
Your response feels like a reflex more than thinking. The " leave your spouse" for anything on this sub is ridiculous. Maybe just talking can help...
Rape? Really? Don’t you think it marginalizes real rape when you classify something like this as rape?
what is real rape? how would you define it? the "severity" of rape is a pointless thing to judge. everyone who has experienced what could be deemed rape has different feelings about it.
> what is real rape? how would you define it? Thank you. There are a lot of people gatekeeping the word here today.
No it does not. Rape is not a competition for who suffers most. Don't *gatekeep* rape.
It absolutely does this. It is 100% not rape and it's possible to call things out as bad without using that word.
So you are gatekeeping rape now? Not cool.
It is not rape ffs. Accusing someone of "gatekeeping rape" because they are not a moron and understand what words mean it's very shiity, but hey I guess that is you. It's also not murder or arson or a million other things. Please grow up and try to actually engage your brain.
i didn't know whoopi had a reddit account
Wtf is wrong with you dude?
I own a dictionary and I read the post.
This is absolutely not common with men. I mean... It's rape. You didn't consent. Unless you have told him in the past that you are ok with him fucking you while you are asleep. This is super weird.
That’s just sick
No. It happened to me for years with my ex and I thought it was normal because he was my boyfriend. Most of the times I was fully asleep and woke up because of pain or movement. I tricked myself into believing it was normal until my best friend heard me complaining about it, she had a conversation with him, explained it was rape and he “apologized”, he stopped for a while but kept doing it after a couple of months, not as constantly but very often still, he even did it next to our friends while we were on trips and sleeping… He continued until one time he did the same thing with my best friend while both of us were unconscious, (she was in a very very vulnerable mental state at the moment). I broke up with him in good terms because I didn’t know any of this and my best friend found the courage to tell me, after it. The thing is that we were gaslit to the point we couldn’t believe he was a rapist, he pretended to be the best person for years, we all let our guard down. I met my now boyfriend before we knew about the situation with my best friend, and for context I told him about the “sleeping sex” and he said that it wasn’t ok, that it was not a common thing to do and that my ex was abusive even if I didn’t perceive it as such. I was SA multiple times in my childhood and my boyfriend got very triggered by it when I told him, and he got specially angry when I told him about my ex… it took him a year to convince me I was being raped.
No man worth a shit keeps going when you clearly aren’t into it.
Ew. So he really couldn't give a crap whether you want sex or not. He'll take what he wants when he wants it without even asking. How lovely for you! I'd explain (shame it's necessary) that I'd rather be involved in sex. So maybe he could at the very least make sure I was awake first.
Well if it wasn’t consensual and it crossed your boundary then it was assault/rape. My partner is into free-use AND they explicitly tell me they’d like that sort of thing no matter what the scenario. But if that’s not you then it was assault/rape
This IS rape, I hope you understand that , even if it was your husband,it was done without consent, so think it of that way Edit: this is not common for men, him saying oh sorry is the nail in the coffin, whether this is going to end your marriage or not depends upon you,but take some time apart for sure, go to your parents/friends house for while and decide what you wanna do
i mean i don’t think it is because i didn’t say no? like the whole time was thinking “i can say stop if i want”. like sometimes we’ll start having sex without me moaning or really responding because i’m half asleep then i’ll get into it. i’m not against it happening i’m just lazy. this time was more the me laying there in the dark silent while he kept fucking me and it felt super weird? like i was just a piece of furniture or something
> like i was just a piece of furniture or something Which is clearly how he sees you: to him, you are just a utensil. Not a living breathing equal partner.
You're a fucking pyschopath. Stop playing armchair psychologist and trying to ruin this woman's marriage. You people are fucking crazy.
> You're a fucking pyschopath. How about *you* stop playing armchair psychologist.
I'm sorry you felt violated and I think it is a good idea to talk about consent and boundaries again with your boyfriend. I really don't mean this in a accusatory way, but can I ask how he was supposed to tell the difference between a situation like this *sometimes we’ll start having sex without me moaning or really responding because i’m half asleep then i’ll get into it*, which I'm guessing you're fine with (?) and a situation like this *.. me laying there in the dark silent while he kept fucking me and it felt super weird? like i was just a piece of furniture or something*?
first situation — we start having sex and i warm up and start moaning second situation — we start having sex and i lay there in silence and don’t move at all and he keeps fucking me without stopping to see if somethings wrong
But you said: > sometimes we’ll start having sex *without me moaning or really responding* because i’m half asleep then i’ll get into it What's the timeline here? How long do you usually stay silent, before you become responsive and start moaning?
ten seconds?
Okay there's a bit of a difference between 10 seconds and 2 minutes, so I totally understand why you would feel violated. And it would feel super weird to me, too, that someone would be into fucking me when I'm not being responsive. That said, I think it's possible your husband really didn't realize you weren't into it. It's totally valid to feel violated, but that doesn't automatically turn your husband into a rapist. Concent can be complicated, especially non verbal consent and especially if you suffer with panic attacks or dissociation during sex. This is a really emotionally charged topic and people are going to comment, based on their own experiences, without fully understanding your situation. I think you should discuss this with your partner again once emotions are a little more calm, without making any accusations. Explain to him how *you* felt, but try not to tell him what you think his intentions were. Maybe the two of you can work this out. If you want this relationship to last, there definitely needs to be a conversation about consent again, because the way things currently are, is obviously not working. You need to tell him how to avoid situations like this in the future. Maybe telling him he needs to wait for verbal consent before penetration would be helpful? Sry for the unsolicited advice, but I hope this is at least a little helpful and all the best!
lol he doesn’t care how i felt
Did he tell you that?
i wrote an update about it. actions speak louder than words
But you didn't say YES either
Prior consent exists if she has given him the go- ahead to try anyway when she's asleep. If she had and she is comfortably knowing she can retract consent and he'll respect it, that's a while different dynamic. It's not rape in that circumstance. OP sounds more confused about how a guy enjoys any of it, though, without a responsive partner, and unless you have that kink, I don't think it can be explained because I don't get how either.
i think i’m more confused about why he didn’t stop as i obviously wasn’t enjoying it. i know that if i hadn’t said anything he would’ve just kept going until he was done and that bothers me
> i’m more confused about why he didn’t stop as i obviously wasn’t enjoying it Because he doesn't care.
Then you need revisit the consent parameters. If you've been fine with things starting on the state they did prior but have decided you'd rather only have them going while fully conscious, you have to tell him this.
yea i understand that. this time feels somewhat different though as I’m usually at least a tad responsive before the sex starts. i was feeling depressed and exhausted and i think i just kinda froze in the moment. it makes me worry that my body language was so obviously different and unreceptive but it didn’t seem to bother him.
This can be a really gray area because everyone has a different perception. My current wife loves to be woken up by sex. That took me a little while to understand and get on the same page because she doesn’t want me waking her up by rubbing on her or kissing on her. If you’re going to wake her up, she wants you to just go straight to business. But past experience with exes, that would’ve not been a good idea at all. I would’ve had to warm them up/wake them up a little first. Point I’m trying to make is that he obviously misunderstood how it works with you. Seeing as this seems like the first time, I’d cut him some slack. Explain to him why it feels uncomfortable and weird to you. Don’t be vague about it either. Be as straight up as possible. If it happens again. That’s a different story, but I could tell you 100% my wife would be just fine with this scenario happening, although I don’t think I’ve ever had her be non responsive once it started and I don’t think I would be into that. And that also doesn’t negate how you feel about it. So just make your feelings known and get on the same page.
yea i agree thanks. i just dont see how he could understand how it works with me when we’ve been having sex for a decade
I do feel for the guy a little bit because you said in another comment that sometimes you’ll be laying there quiet until you get into it. That alone can make it a little confusing, because how long is it until you’re uncomfortable or into it? Where is the line? That’s a really blurry line, especially when hormones are flying like they do during sex, and time is even harder to keep track of…. I’d just say that you need to vocalize that it did make you feel weird and maybe you need to have clear signs that you’re more into it or not… I don’t know, but this sounds like communication and boundary setting need to be better established for this situation. Obviously I don’t know your full situation but I can only equate it to if my wife suddenly stopped me and felt uncomfortable about it when I thought it was ok/ normally welcomed and I would feel terrible for causing that but also confused. I think it’s very possible this is how your husband feels
Then that is something you need to talk to him about. Tell him how it made you feel. Communication is really important in a relationship. Even if you think something is obvious it is not always. Especially when both people are tired, stressed and just reading situations wrong. You two could really benefit from couples therapy because there is a lot going on in your relationship. It sounds like outside of sex you feel taken for granted based upon your other comments.
I would agree but she literally said she doesn’t require verbal permission..
in the sense that i’m fine to just roll into foreplay with having to be asked if it’s okay. i feel like being silent during being fingered and not moving at all is sort of an obvious sign i’m not interested. im aware i could have just said stop before it even started i don’t know why i didn’t
I mean to me that means you can walk up to her and start touching her... While she is awake. Unless she literally told him he can use her as a sex doll.
True. Even so, even so, there is her negative body language.
She didn't state she has a free use policy, just that no verbal permission is needed. By the wording of the post, it sure as shit sounds like non-verbal permission of being an active participant in sex is where the consent part comes in. Fucking an unresponsive person is rape.
I agree. But OP does not seem to realise that yet.
AND she is saying that this has happened before so he is not only a rapist but also a serial rapist
Her comments about her reactions to this are heartbreaking. She has classic rape victim responses. She disassociates. And so on. He's raped her so often she can't even grasp that it's wrong.
Is is not rape and trivialising that word is not helping anyone.
Unresponsive is not the same as half-asleep. Patients on a ventilator in ICU are unresponsive. Half-asleep people are half-awake also so they can know and articulate if they have some sort of issue. You've said you don't require him to ask permission every time before initiating sex, and have had sex late at night with him before. He stopped when you asked him to stop. Not sure what the problem is exactly here? Do you expect him to read your mind?
I think the problem is how strange it is for her husband to keep having sex when she obviously isn’t moaning, kissing, or showing any signs she’s into it. He basically decided to just have sex with her without body language showing she consents.
I don't find it strange at all. My bf often wakes me up by sexual touching or starting sex; I'm mostly into it but if I'm not then I'll tell him so and he stops. Body language is not the same as consent. OP says they previously agreed that verbal consent was not needed every time before sex. If she wanted to change that rule then she needed to tell her bf. There are a lot of women who don't participate a lot during sex or moan a lot, that means nothing.
Well she said she will usually moan or kiss back. I’m sorry but if I’m having sex and If my partner isn’t showing any signs of being into it, I’d stop and ask if they are okay…
Not everyone is like you and "usually" is not the same as "every single time". If my partner had the exact same sex the exact same way with me every single time, then after the 4th or 5th time I'd stop him and ask if HE was okay... Because I happen to like to not follow a script, if you catch my drift...
OP’s passive aggressive responses to everyone here is really telling. Use your words and communicate what you want.
no amount of passive aggressiveness makes nonconsensual penetration okay. She was unconscious for all he knew. Hope that helps.
i mean it was pitch black he couldn’t even see my face and i didn’t move so i basically could’ve been asleep for all he knew
just read your updates. I hope you’re doing okay. we all support and feel for you. I hope this is able to be a wakeup call to you. do you have any friends or family you can stay with for a while?
yea i feel like a blindfolds been ripped off my eyes and im suddenly seeing all these details of prior events and im just reeling. like one time i think he might actually have semi raped me when he had complete emotional leverage over me and knew it and i felt i literally couldn’t say no and he came inside me afterwards and i just burst into tears. ended up with a chemical pregnancy and it was awful. like i could go on and on and on im fkn shellshocked rn
I’m so sorry. what hes doing is absolutely not normal, not okay, and not consensual. For your original question, NO! normal men cannot get off and enjoy themselves when their partner is like a corpse or in distress. Because they see their partner as a real human they love. Only rapists remain hard for that. He is a foul human mistake. And I’m sorry on your original post, the brigade of reddit rapists who came in bashing you and downvoting everything. The problem is: the dont want to admit what they’ve been doing/would do if they have a second of a chance is not consensual. They really struggle with that concept so they get enraged. But that’s because reddit is full of awful basement dwelling troglodyte misogynists. Please listen to the sensible advice you’ve received. your husband has anger issues and he is okay with using you like a fleshlight. the only thing I can plead from you: please try and find someone to stay with for a bit so you can process this all in peace. DO NOT let him touch you, and dont do any favors for him like cooking or anything. If he ever tries to touch or have sex with you again, I can’t emphasize this enough, you are so strong and brave and you absolutely have the right to say NO! DONT TOUCH ME! just resist every urge to freeze or be agreeable. Say with me: no no no no no no no no no no
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Perfect example of passive aggression lol.
Well, that's what I said you was almost asleep.So why didn't you tell him to stop straight away
i think i got triggered by something and started dissociating. i just stared at the window and kinda felt i was leaving my body for a minute
> i think i got triggered by something and started dissociating. i just stared at the window and kinda felt i was leaving my body for a minute You are describing what many people experience when they are being raped.
She's also describing what many people experience who have been raped before, even if the sex they are currently having is 100% consensual. Getting triggered doesn't automatically turn consensual sex into non consensual sex. It can be really really hard for your partner to tell what's going on with you in a situation like this.
> She's also describing what many people experience who have been raped before, even if the sex they are currently having is 100% consensual. Yes, absolutely. I really should have said exactly that instead, that's much more relevant here, and avoids the whole "was it rape yes/no" debate.
It’s a hard one because after being married you would think that you would be able to shrug him off, or say something! I don’t think it’s rape, but it was unwanted sexual attention, that maybe he wasn’t aware he was doing anything wrong, as he stopped when she finally said something. I’m not blaming her I’m just saying how it might have been. Also communication is massively lacking, this needs to be addressed.
My ex boyfriend used to do that alot and also guilttrip and pressure me into sex. Leave. Not caring remotely how you feel furing sex is the biggest red flag but starting stuff while youre unresponsive is rape.
I couldn’t even fathom how a guy would enjoy that. I wouldn’t even be able to maintain the erectile fortitude required to finish the act. WTF is wrong with your husband?
You need to get into therapy as soon as possible, and know that you may have to see a few different therapists before you find the right one. Your husband is an abuser in sooooo many different ways, and I hope you find the strength, and support to get out of that marriage. It is not fair to you OR your kids to remain in an environment like that. This is how the abuse cycle continues. I wish you nothing but the best.
Ok that’s Enough Reddit for tonight
Uh… I think it’s all depends on couple. I personally know one that accept this things. She says she doesn’t mind if they didn’t sleep arguing or with cold treatment she will enjoy n be okay with this. I was confused too but that’s why communication so important. Cause they had this agreement before this happened. So him doing it without talking with u before not good, especially if u had panic attacks during sexual interaction. If this keep happening n not just one n only situation u need proper talk with him if both doesn’t want lose relationship. If after talk he keeps doing smth u don’t accept… yk what to do
I like the way Christian Grey said in the first book, "not into necrophilia."
I’ve had this happen to me unfortunately with a couple longer term partners. I also think it’s really fucking weird and gross, but for some reason it does seem to be common with men. They feel so comfortable with you and like they “already have permission” that they just think it’s ok late at night even if you’re unresponsive to .. yes literally use u as a flesh light. It’s absolutely wild. I hope it’s not THAT common cause I’d love for my future partners to not do that, and made the boundary when it did happen in my relationships as well. Sorry this happened to you and I hope he doesn’t do it again after realizing how not ok with it you were. Hearing the panic attack thing too tho is concerning… seems like this man doesn’t look for your signs of enjoyment or permission even in the past and that sucks. Sending you love
it’s rape
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yea i’m pretty sure he just would have finished and given it no thought it’s not really sitting great with me
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yea i feel like he just wanted to have sex and i was there. pretty sure he noticed im usually annoyingly loud. he followed me to the bathroom and said sorry again and i asked if was okay and i said “mmm” because i didnt know what else to say in the moment. then he went back to bed
It is extremely common. You have to voice your feelings to him immediately when it happens. As you said, you don't require verbal confirmation to give consent, so he really had no way of knowing how you felt.
> I’m not a man obviously but I feel like I probably wouldn’t be into having sex with someone that wasn’t into it or remotely receptive. I fail to see how that has anything to do with being a man or what exactly you’re insinuating… Is it common with men? I don’t really know. What I know is some couples have arrangements where they give prior consent to being “free-use” while sleeping or whatever. Emphasis on the prior consent. If that’s what you guys had, then that makes more sense on what HE was doing. If he just all of a sudden started doing it, then that’s on him. Don’t plaster it as a “man thing”.
She refers to it as a man thing because it is very common in western culture for men to claim that once they get going they can't easily stop. For you to act like this incident and her reaction are in a vacuum outside of that very, very, extremely, common, and solely male-related trope, of oh baby you just got me started, you can't expect me to just turn it off like that, is disingenuous and rude.
OP had made it clear they DID NOT have this arrangement.
i’m not trying to be sexist i just mean he’s a man so I’m referring specifically to him and his mindset
Ah I see. Well, I can’t really relate cause I like my women conscious but if it’s something you were uncomfortable, I would say just talk to him. Set up further boundaries on sex while unresponsive if that’s his kink.
I also am a man, & not a rapist. I can tell when my girlfriend isn't in the mood, and I don't push it. If she pretends she's into it just to please me, I can tell when she's not into it, and stop. If she says ow, I stop and try to figure out what hurt her, was it me? Leg cramp, etc. Your husband basically raped you, regardless if you "don't need to give verbal permission". You sound like an object he can use whenever he pleases. Obviously don't know the guy and wasn't there. Maybe he's just dumb AF and can't take the clues but either way, not right. Being in a relationship doesn't give you free will to stick your dick in your SO at any time you'd like. Edit: yes I understand it's not technically rape with her saying I don't require verbal permission, but it's still "rapey". She was half asleep, kind of out of it from the sounds. While I might text my girl something like hey, wanna play when you get home?, in person I've never had to give or ask for verbal permission. It just happens. Couldn't imagine fucking my girl while she lays there half asleep with 0 reaction before telling me to stop. Dudes never heard of foreplay? If anything, get her in the mood.
This is rape. I'm a cis straight woman. My fiance has absolutely no interest in sex unless I am also fully participating. It is uncomfortable to think you might as well be unconscious and he'd still be into it. You have every right to feel violated and scared. You were raped.
I saw a lot of people in the comments calling it rape so I showed the post to a friend who sadly suffered from sex*al abuse in the past, this was her opinion: “It’s weird, but calling it rape it’s almost like an insult for me, people just don’t know what they talk about. As for the problem, she said she don’t require verbal consent and he did stopped when she asked, so at least he is conscious about what he was doing and respected her decision. What trouble me the most is that shitty apology, “oh sorry”, like, that’s all? At least ask her if she is okay now! If I was her, I would have a long chat with him about boundaries or kinks, I’m not into things like non verbal agreement but maybe they are? I understand how she feels cause it’s weird and bizarre indeed but I think it can be solved with open communication.” That was her opinion. As for mine, I agree with my friend in almost everything, in my case I think that the fact that he didn’t stopped even when you didn’t reacted is really weird, as a man I don’t think I would ever do that to my partner unless we discussed it before. Try to have a long chat with him, be as honest and open as you can, if you feel like he is minimizing the topic then he probably has a problem. Good luck!
Also a rape survivor+childhood SA survivor. Other people's experience of rape differing from mine doesn't invalidate my trauma. Rape=nonconsensual sex. There was no consent here. Verbal consent isn't always needed, but there was no non-verbal either. The most common response to rape is freeze, which can include not being able to say no. Your friend needs to get a grip and stop gatekeeping. It's harmful, and incredibly self centered - this isn't about her. Fuck all the way off with that bs.
> calling it rape it’s almost like an insult for me She does not get to gatekeep what is rape. It was non-consensual sex. That is what rape is. Just because her experience was worse, does not alter the definition. And just because OPs experience was not as dreadful does not in any way diminish your friend's experience just because it has the same name.
Rape is by definition non consensual sex -- OP and her husband had an agreement that she was cool with this in the past and never articulated a change in expectation. He is not a mind reader. By definition, this is not rape. She can feel angry about it but she NEEDS to articulate changes in expectations if you are going to have a free use situation going on. If that has always been their standard then its grade A Asshole move to call him a rapist because SHE changed the rules without telling him. Rape is wrong in EVERY situation - but so is calling someone a rapist when it absolutely is not rape.
i never said we had an agreement
Go back and read your original post. You said that you do not require verbal consent. That is an agreement.
no i said he doesn’t need verbal permission to start touching me. my consent is given through my showing enjoyment and engaging in the act
>How do i go about dealing with this? Idk, how about you use your words next time and say stop when you're uncomfortable instead of letting your husband continue as if nothing was wrong and then retroactively getting mad at him for it.
could you please quote the part where i said i was mad as i’ve no recollection of saying that
It's not like OP said that they have been experiencing panic attacks/freeze responses during sex, that *he knows about*.
Uhm what? It was rape (unless she gave him free use even when she's sleeping) but she can't get mad because she acted like she was asleep? Maybe she did that hoping he would lose interest. There isn't one universal way to react to an assault. She did tell him to stop. Not immediately because she probably thought he would lose interest but she did tell him to stop.
She explicitly says in her post that she doesn't mind having sex late and night and doesn't require verbal asking of permission. This was not assault nor rape. She is explicit that she does not require asking of permission and she never said no. By throwing around the word rape or assault like you are, you are making light of a VERY serious issue. This is not that. He is not responsible for her regret or reaction when she has set the standards and the rules for their sex relationship. In a marital relationship you HAVE TO ARTICULATE rule changes. You can't just change the rules, not tell the person and then claim its a crime because you don't like the way it turned out. That is just wrong on EVERY level.
>She is explicit that she does not require asking of permission OP clarified that they dont require permission to touch. That she would show non-verbal consemt through participation and enjoyment. In this case he did not have verbal or non-verbal consent. It was non-consensual sex. Considering that he knows that she has been having panic attacks/freeze responses during sex does not make it any better.
why is everyone assuming i said i was raped???
You didn't say that. That's what it is. If you didn't give consent, what's that called? You said you didn't want it to happen, what's that called? You eventually said no and left...I am not making things up. Calling a spade a spade.
So you can't withdraw consent? You could be in the middle of sex and withdraw consent. In this situation it's the husband who has been wronged? The entire reason she is here is because she didn't like what happened... But the husband is the victim? She said late sex is ok and verbal consent isn't needed... That to me means I can walk up and touch her or initiate sex without asking her. Obviously I wouldn't just pull her pants down and go to town. She didn't say anything about being ok with him fucking her while she is asleep. She said she didn't move or make a sound... The husband would have continued if she didn't tell him to stop.... But it's her fault? Again consent can be withdrawn at any point.
That's not common amongst men, or even women. That's common among rapist. That was textbook rape. A non consensual action is rape, no matter if it's with your friend, a relative, a stranger or your spouse.
I think the commenters are being harsh on the OP’s husband. Husband and wife don’t explicitly talk about having sex. Many times they have to be discreet and not make much noise. It could be a misunderstanding that OP’s husband misunderstood OP. He went ahead thinking all is well and was taken aback at OP’s comment after she coming back from bathroom. I strongly feel, OP should have have discussion with her husband and explain him that she was not into mood and suddenly realized what’s happening with her in sleep and that led to state of shock for her. He should be careful moving forward. It happens, I have done something like this and realized that it was in appropriate. That doesn’t mean that I am a rapist, insensitive husband and always engage in non-consensual sex with my partner .
when did I ever say we have to be discreet?
What is wrong with u people, firstly u are married to this man Secondly u should have talked to him to see what he says about it but no its social media u chose, lady we don't know u and how u usually handle ur sex affairs with ur partner and then when it makes u uncomfortable what y'all be doin u, should communicate with ur partner don't let ppl get into ur head.
… what?
I don't really understand you said you was almost asleep, but let him continue for 2 minutes and then say stop so you wasn't asleep.So why don't you tell him To stop straight away. It's like you wanted it to happen.
i said i was almost asleep when he started touching me. if i was asleep i wouldn’t be writing a reddit post about it would it
Why didn’t you tell him to stop then?
i think i was dissociating, i’ve frozen during sex before and ended up having panic attacks
This is an assumption but I'm guessing being on the brink of sleep, after a short amount of time of you not *waking up*, you probably expected him to stop. Thinking it'd be easier to turn him down that way and you can just doze right back off.. but when he didn't stop, now it became disturbing and led you to disassociate, until you reached a point you were angry enough to speak on it. I have had a very similar experience, and you're right for feeling disturbed, especially considering your prior experiences. To me, this was not an *end the relationship* kind of experience, bc sometimes I'm turned on by being messed with in my sleep and my partner knows that. But I did have a very serious discussion with them, also relating to past experiences, and how to avoid in the future (if I don't respond at all please discontinue). That discussion and response worked for me, it may not work for you and that's ok. It is important for you to feel safe and trust your partner.
Then why don’t you have a conversation with him about how he initiates sex? Maybe change the rules and tell him that he needs to ask for permission now. That should avoid this in the future.
Dude should have asked first, he's selfish, not braindead. I think we should all check with our partners. My husband ALWAYS asks 'hey, wanna fool around?' Because we're not always on the same page, and he's elated when I excitedly say YEAAH. I do the same with him, and if one od is not sure, one of us will sometimes offer "well, let's suck face and see where it goes". Sometimes it goes, sometimes it don't. We had a good time and neither of us feels fucking weird about it because we're talking to eachother. So I genuinely don't understand why other people have to be weird about simply asking.