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So, on the outside, I have no idea who's the wrong one and who's the right one here, I'm hearing this through your lens. But it sounds like both of you have a fairly reasonable assessment of what is going on. You are used to being incredibly sensitive to tone, your wife is used to standing up for herself (resulting in her having a relatively aggressive tone.) So when you set a boundary, though your wife is accepting that boundary, she still has the tone that allows you to perceive that your wife is irritated with you. I think what your therapist is recommending is that you do whatever you can to start ignoring that tone for now. It's going to be really really uncomfortable. But I think it will be good for you. In this situation, you're saying you expressed your emotions and she told you your emotions are wrong/bad. And to me, I don't see that as what happened. It sounds like you set a boundary, she used a tone that allowed you to accurately perceive her disappointment with your boundary, even though she accepted the boundary. And then you didn't express a *feeling* (which would be saying "I feel nervous setting boundaries with you so I pre-emptively apologized") and instead you attributed an emotion to her ("in the past you have often been angry if I am unavailable"). I think it's reasonable that that would make her feel like she is walking on eggshells, even if she's doing a real bad job of it. I think that your therapist is right, that for now, you should be trying as hard as you can to set those boundaries even if your wife is upset, and then just let her be upset. It is totally ok, in my opinion, just apologize and go to bed, but then feel good that you successfully set the boundary even if you accurately perceived that she was upset with you. Keep working on setting those boundaries. But then, either with the therapist, or during that same conversation, you can say "I'm sorry I apologized preemptively, the tone you were using made me feel like you're annoyed with me. Are you annoyed with me?" And you can talk about her being more accepting of your boundaries. But step one is accepting that she's going to sometimes have feelings about your boundaries, and you should set them anyway!

Yes, I second this perspective, well written and clear! 💯

I’m not OP’s wife but I come from an aggressive/loud family while my husband comes from an incredibly passive-aggressive quiet family. It makes for a lot of miscommunication! I often feel like there’s no tone of voice I can possibly use to communicate where it isn’t taken wrong (genuine attempts to be quieter/gentler are received as patronizing or sarcastic) and my normal voice is taken as harsh. And of course over the decades we’ve been together I’ve learned his body language (the eye rolls, the sighs etc) that tell me he’s rejecting what I’m trying to express even if he’s not just coming out and committing to disagreeing. My husband often verbally agrees in the moment but he actually has no intention of taking me seriously/following my request. While it could be that his wife is DARVOing him, it’s entirely possible that they’re both honestly struggling. Also, in my anectdotal experience, when loud/aggressive people get super duper quiet, that’s often when they’re actually the angriest. Wife could be acting on that as well. My suggestion would be to maybe consider having cameras or other recording devices on in the background to capture exchanges, then play them back as needed and discuss them. It might be beneficial to be able to go back and dissect an interaction and see what you both are talking about from the third person.

>My husband often verbally agrees in the moment but he actually has no intention of taking me seriously/following my request. While it could be that his wife is DARVOing him, it’s entirely possible that they’re both honestly struggling. Yup, I've been super guilty of that. Because it's way easier to just agree and kick the can down the road, right? I can see some DARVO from her, but i'm definitely not 100% in the right here.

That is endlessly frustrating for me and feels like someone is treating me like an NPC/non-entity. An example from my own life is that not all the dishes end up being fully dry when the dishwasher is done. I have told my husband that dishes need to be dry (ESPECIALLY BOWLS THAT STACK) before they get put away because they will end up smelling horrible, and that dishes should be checked for stuck on food as they are put away. He will agree but then put still dirty/wet dishes away. Then I get upset because I suddenly discover that not only did he not take care of things the way they realistically should be, he didn’t take me seriously in the first place. It’s gotten to the point where I have given up and he just gets fed off of the stanky bowls and plates with food stuck on them if I run into that while preparing dinner. But to me, putting a dish in the cabinet means I’ve ensured it’s clean, not simply that it has been through the dishwasher. I can also tell you that people who grow up in those loud, aggressive environments get really good at reading non-verbal communication- especially if the household was physically abusive. So I can usually tell at this point when my husband is dismissing my attempt at communication, and if I choose to call him on it I’m gaslit about what I was actually seeing. But the thing is, I don’t really have the luxury of waiting until the demonstration of that dismissal in every day actions (like finding the dirty dishes in the cupboard) because then it’s “I don’t remember doing that” etc. But anyways, I digress. It’s important that you are engaging vs kicking the can. Decide if you agree or disagree, and then have a productive conversation about it. I know with the things I feel strongly about I can say why I think they’re important. Often it feels like my husband just thinks what I want is overkill. Perhaps if some of your disagreements are task-based, you could work out some of those by discussing with a third party.

So wisely articulated! Love this response!

wish i could send this comment to my ex lol.

Very astute! This is easier at the beginning stages of a relationship because people have their default reactions and you have to assume they're importing their patterns from their past. So you teach people what your limits are, and it's hard then too to feel like you're disappointing them, but hopefully the adaptation is faster and smoother if the person is perceptive and emotionally intelligent/not pathologically defensive. Anyways, that to say that the growth pains are inevitable.

Spot on!

This is very well put and great advice !

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THIS. she had a feeling (or you perceived that she did) and you don't need to do anything in response to that feeling. it's hers to manage, not yours. which can be very hard to practice!! >she asked if I could take the kids somewhere after school next week. I usually have a very flexible work schedule, but this particular day was one where I had to be at work. I told her no, I couldn't do it, and apologized (just a quick "sorry"). She became irritated that I apologized... it's fine that's she's irritated, you don't have to fix it or explain it. just let it exist. she can have a feeling and soothe it in her own way. there will certainly be some bumps in the road as you two try to change your normal scripts, and this is part of it. you did great by saying "no", even with a small apology.

> She actually said that she walks on eggshells all the time to avoid making me angry, because I'm the angry one, not her. Ah, the projection is palpable. DARVO: Deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender Deny: "she insisted that she rarely gets angry" -- what you observed, is not happening Attack: "it's my own trauma making me think that she's angry" -- the problem is you, not me Reverse victim and offender: "She actually said that she walks on eggshells all the time to avoid making me angry, because I'm the angry one, not her" -- and the DARVO is complete. The problem isn't that she is angry at you, the problem is that you are angry at her, and she is the victim. The challenging part of this is that, if you do go talk to a couples therapist about it, she'll either refuse to acknowledge this happened or tell some fantasy story where you started in on her. Ask me how I know :-/

The best thing about DARVO is that once you know what it is, it no longer has any power over you. That’s how it was for me, at least. I spent decades being miffed about how my mom always became the victim no matter what. Take this is OP.

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>Btw OP your wife is like my mom Same. People who are always the victim and can't ever be wrong about anything 😒

Are you me?! Were you eavesdropping on my marriage counseling sessions?

Of course you will upset people when you are not a doormat. ESPECIALLY if you have always been one before. When you advocate for yourself, you will start to see who actually loves and respects you, and who was just using you because you let them. Never be afraid to find out who falls into which camp. And never be afraid to cut the later out of your life for good

I used to be a total doormat, I avoided any conflict, I did anything I could to calm things down, even tried to anticipate any possible inconvenience that could cause friction. In a conflict I squeacked the little I could while holding down tears, just taking every bad word barked at me and believing them all as the truth. Afterwards I went into bathroon or bed and cried in silence. Boundaries and the word 'no' were foreign concepts to me before my mid-thirties. After a serious burnout I started to educate myself about psychology and how to stand up for myself. The biggest insights were that I can't control other people's reactions, and I don't cause their reactions either. I can be however sophisticated with my approach as anyone can, and the reaction is still out of my control. I can only control how I react to their reaction. You can imagine how challenging that is when my trauma response is freeze-fawn! It requires conscious effort to regulate my emotions and stay in the adult framework of mind and not regress into childhood reactions. Anyway. To answer your question, you can't prevent your wife from having her reaction, you can only control yours. You need to learn to be comfortable with uncomfortable feelings, both yours and your wifes. And it's always okay to take a pause, leave the situation to compose yourself, and then return to continue the discussion.

>And it's always okay to take a pause, leave the situation to compose yourself, and then return to continue the discussion. Oh man. I have no problems with the former, but it's the last part that's so hard...

I'm telling you, as someone who is the exact same way, that kicking cans forever is much much harder than just biting the bullet and talking it out.

This is so real. I was huge for a very long time on letting things slide because I didn’t feel like dealing with it in the moment, but I have been working on just dealing with things as they come up. There’s been some conflict with people who’ve known me forever and are used to being able to do and say whatever and I just let it slide (like with my brother throwing an adult tantrum because “everyone here sucks and you’re all terrible” and me responding in the moment about how his temper tantrums as an adult are a totally inappropriate way to deal with emotions, instead of just sitting there shut down and hoping he stops) but other people, like my boyfriend, are glad to talk things out with me in the moment, even if we’re on opposite sides of a problem, so we get things solved ASAP (like when we were talking about whether to rent, buy, or buy a trailer in a park, and I had always said I would just buy right out of my moms house because I hated the idea of paying into a place several thousand dollars a year and never owning it, but my boyfriend was more concerned with us having a stable place to live and thought we should just rent, and we had to sit down and look at our financials and I had to come to terms with the fact that we weren’t in a position to buy a home right away)

I accidentally went off on a crazy tangent trying to include examples but what I’m trying to say is people who care about you will be glad to talk things through and come to a solution instead of letting it simmer until one of you is angry/bitter

this is part of why she is accusing you of being angry. usually (at least to people who are more conflict-oriented) this kind of avoidance is seen as unbelievably passive-aggressive and *controlling*. it makes it impossible to ever resolve any problem because the other party in the conflict refuses to directly engage, but then pretends that everything is fine. I think that you consider yourself a doormat, but I bet if you really closely examined your behavior you would find that you are consistently finding ways to assert control in passive ways that offer you plausible deniability and let you appear like the good guy. and I bet she is as highly sensitized to that as you are to her expressing even mild unhappiness.

What you're describing sounds a LOT like RSD - Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria, I encourage you to go look it up. It's a condition whereby any hint of "rejection" of any kind triggers an inappropriate reaction. The reality of your conflict in your example was NOT some deep personal betrayals or attacks, it was just an external problem to solve. It's ok if one or both of you had negative feelings about that, but it's not a reason to turn on each other. There is no objective reason to turn it into a game of whose fault was it. So **you** really need to take responsibility for your emotional reactions to things and stop blaming your wife. And maybe she can help by not calling you out when you do slip up and say sorry if that's a trigger for you, but you two need to talk to find out the best approaches for when this stuff happens, not try and resolve it in the moment when you're both in your feelings that are being informed more by your past resentments than the reality that you're actually in. My partner used to be like you, in fact some of his early journals ready word for word like some of your statements. He was a people pleaser who would stuff down his wants & needs until he couldn't any more and instead of being able to have a reasonable talk about something, suddenly we'd be having a perfectly nice agreeable day and I'd ask him a question about dinner, and BAM he'd be yelling at me because he didn't want broccoli for dinner and bringing up this laundry list of other things he had stuffed his feelings down about since our last blow up. Suddenly I'd blindsided by this unreasonable amount of negative reaction, floundering and overwhelmed because all I had said was I was going to cook broccoli for dinner, now I'm having to defend myself to accusations of having "forced" him to eat what I had wanted every single day for the last month when what actually had happened would be I'd say "I was thinking of cooking chicken tonight, what do you think?" and he'd said "Yeah that sounds great" when what he REALLY wanted was a burger. But according to him I was "angry" all the time and he couldn't say no to me because I'd get upset and cry. In his head I was this controlling monster who always had to have her way, when the reality was he was just treating me like that whenever I asked him a question. He would react to questions as if they were a trap. This would almost always end with me in tears because I just couldn't say the right thing to calm him down, he was demanding explanations for things he didn't want to hear, he wanted an apology from me for accepting his choices. He was mad at himself for agreeing to things he didn't want, and projecting that onto me and blaming me for the results of HIS agreements. Think about the scenario again, what did she actually ***say*** when you said Sorry? Don't include the tone of voice or facial expression, write out the exact words without your filters added. Was it closer to "Why did you just say sorry?" than "oh my god I am so irritated right now, how could you possibly say sorry to me?! That is outrageous, how dare you, that's such a bad, wrong way to respond to me!" It's far more likely whatever tone in her voice or facial expressions etc that you picked up and interpreted as "irritated" was actually "frustrated" - and not at YOU as a person, but at your impulse to say "sorry" and this repeated cycle, which makes her feel shitty because she knows you say sorry like that because you think she's this abusive controlling monster. I'm sure she doesn't want to be that in your life and works very hard to make you happy in many, many ways. And when you respond to her like that, it makes her feel like a bad person - and this is really unfair. It's the unfairness of this that really hurts. And it keeps happening, over and over. She probably feels like she can never do enough to show or prove to you that she loves you, because you keep responding to her like she's a monster. Instead of practicing what your counsellors have told you & saying "Oh, yes, of course. There wasn't a reason for me to say sorry. It's the people pleasing thing. Thanks for calling me out on that, I'll keep trying to catch it in future. I love you honey" You decided to tell her that the way you responded, the choice **you** made to open your mouth & say "sorry", was HER fault because of things that may or may not have happened in the past. You may as well have just called her an abusive monster, again. No wonder she got more upset. She most likely feels that all the effort she's been putting into loving you and therapy etc is worthless, because nothing is changing this ugly perception of her that you respond to. If RSD is your real problem here, you react to any indication of a negative emotion in someone else as if it's a deeply personal attack at you, when it probably has nothing to do with you personally at all. If your wife was irritated in the past because you couldn't help her with something, it was probably because now she had to figure out a different solution, not because of YOU as a person. But you make it mean she's condemning and wronging YOU. No one can have a negative emotion around you without you attaching some personal story to it. It's very likely that you don't come across as this meek doormat you think you are. Your wife's experience of you may be more like a game of roulette where she never entirely knows if she's going to get this agreeable chap whose easy to solve problems with, or this volatile guy who cannot wait to tell her all the ways she's upset him since the last time he got mad at her about his feelings.

Wow, that hits really close to home. I need to think about this for a while...

I really appreciate you reading it through and giving it some thought. When my dear SO learned about RSD it really transformed his journey, he found a therapist he really liked and trusted and who was experienced in the condition and for about 3 months he was doing twice weekly sessions and really put in the work for himself. He discovered he'd been in deep denial about childhood abuse. His parents weren't maliciously abusive, but intentions not really matter when the impact is harmful. Because he'd been in such deep denial, he'd never been able to process or reconcile things that had hurt him as a kid, so he was basically unable to do so as an adult. Resulting in a full grown dude who couldn't handle negative feelings and would get very angry about them, and lash out and blame what he saw as the cause of them - me. He also did Ketamine therapy after he got through the intense practical therapy, and then he dropped down to once a week, then once a month, and now 3 years on he's the person he always imagined he was in his head. And I want to add, I am not saying this is all YOUR fault. I am sure she has or has gotten into bad habits in how she handles conflict with you too. Past resentments, frustrations and hurts all can cause obstacles between two people when you're trying to resolve a problem today, and if you get snagged on those as you try and come together, you're likely to just get stuck where you are and never make new progress. It may be worth you two taking an afternoon or evening and studying up on Non Violent Communication, which is a conflict resolution technique by therapist Marshall Rosenberg, the book is a quick read and there's a lot of good coaching videos on youtube for you to follow along with as well - one of the quickest ways to resolve conflict spirals like you two are stuck in is to give yourself a whole new pattern to follow instead of trying to fix the one you're running now. It may feel stilted, artificial and weird at first, but if you stick to it, it will come together and make sense. It slows you down and forces you to articulate feelings instead of reacting to them. When you listen to hear instead of listening to respond, that makes a huge difference as well. I know all this sounds daunting, but you two are actually at least 70% of the way to healing this rift already - you are both in therapy and both trying. Just because you've had some fall backs or haven't found the exact right direction forward doesn't mean you're failing, there's no magical fix, it's a process. And MOST couples don't make it half as far as you two have already. Good luck to you both, I hope you can heal this and be the people you fell in love with together again. Look for the foundation you built this life on and reinforce it. It's always easy to tear down, but building takes work. You both deserve the love and respect that you want to give each other.

💯💯💯💯

Wish I could upvote a hundred times! This is amazingly written. OP, I don't consider myself aggressive but I do think I'm assertive. When it comes to "people-pleasers" the one thing that really sticks out about them to me is the paradoxical nature of one: they do everything they can to prevent conflict and make other people feel better, but in doing so they also always think the most about themselves. They think everything is directed, negatively, at them. They take everything as a slight against them. It's the pleaser vs the world in their head, and they don't even do it on purpose. They start reading into signs that might have nothing to do with them, and get upset about it all by themselves, and then get even more upset when nobody notices. Do you see the contradiction here? It becomes a cycle, and when the pleaser finally blows up it really feels sudden to the people around them-- they can't read your mind. I feel a lot of empathy for you AND your wife. I don't know if the other commenters insisting your wife is shitty understand how it feels to be on the other end of a "people-pleaser", as someone who ISN'T one. It feels like talking with a passive-aggressive wall that blames you for things you didn't even know about. It feels unfair. It's good for you to express your feelings, of course, but try and keep it to YOUR feelings. "I thought you might be angry at me because X and Y." Or, instead of assuming the worst, ASK your wife how SHE feels. "Are you angry at me and what I said? How did I come off to you?" I wish for both of you to understand each other and communicate with each other to your best result! I just want to add onto this awesome comment with more thoughts from the "other side of people-pleasing" perspective. I don't think it's nearly as well put together but hopefully it gives you more to think about and other commenters more sympathy for your wife.

Well, OP, the good thing is that your counsellor and your wife both agree that you should stand up for yourself regardless of her response. That is actually really good. You have permission to say what you need to and to have whatever feelings and emotions you have and don't need to apologize for them. Your wife has agreed to this concept even if in the moment, your response isn't what she likes. The bad news is two fold - both that it is very uncomfortable to do so, and that your wife turns it right around and says that you are angry at her. It is very possible that she does not know she is yelling. I know people like that. It is also possible that your wife IS irritated at the time (because she is easily irritated) but not as angry as you think she is (because you are ultra-sensitive to anger). Not only that, but because you have resented her in the past when you felt she steamrolled over your wants, she may be afraid that you are sitting there apologizing to her but secretly "angry", which she is trying to avoid. That is- you could both be being honest about what you think is happening. I have several suggestions \*work on living with the discomfort by desensitizing yourself a little. Yes, your wife will be irritated when you say no. OK, let that just wash over you and away. It doesn't have to hurt you, linger, or change your response. Cognitive behavioral therapy may help with this. \*when your wife seems irritated, ask her what her feelings are and to rate them from 1 to 5 for intensity. See if that matches how you might have rated them. Ask her what signals she gives that indicate whether she is angry or not. \*if your wife has specific behaviors that indicate to you that she is not listening to what you want, or is angry, note them down and discuss them with the counsellor. \* have a treat or celebration when you do succeed in holding a boundary or holding your own in even a small disagreement. Have a special jar you put tokens in and do something special when it fills, have gift cards to do something fun, dance around the room whooping, make a chart and put stickers on it - whatever works for you. I have a friend who apologizes for everything because of her upbringing, which was harsh. Sometimes I will say, "You have used up your alottment of apologies for the day." \*Perhaps you could give yourself a limit on apologies and keep track. When you've hit the limit, force yourself to stop. \* find a way to incentivize your wife's behavior for listening to you and supporting you. Talk to the counsellor about it. Maybe she needs a sticker chart! In any case, both of you are re-parenting yourselves as adults. Sometimes the things we do to teach children work for adults as well, even if they seem silly. Retraining our responses and reactions can be done, but it is uncomfortable. Rewarding good changes, acknowledging unpleasant moments, and tracking progress all help. Good luck to both of you!

According to OP, wife is rarely yelling, the original post just was vague enough that most people automatically assume that she does.

aha, that mystery solved!

My husband and I had a kind of similar dynamic, prior to marriage counseling. He complained that I yelled at him all the time. Our marriage counselor told me I needed to stop yelling at him all the time. I felt unsupported, invalidated, and generally unwelcome. Until the day I lost my temper in a session. When I lose my temper, I can barely speak - I speak slowly, and very quietly. It's intense, but it's absolutely not violent - I'm usually motionless. That changed the dynamic. The marriage counselor saw an angry interaction - I was angry at both of them, honestly - and it showed I wasn't really the whole problem, if you know what I mean. I truly do not lose my temper often - maybe half a dozen times over 25 years. But I learned that he honestly seems to consider it yelling when I'm angry, even though the volume goes way down. I learned to express my anger differently - sandwiching what I'm angry about between reassurances, and ending by saying something about "don't feel bad, just try not to do it again" - but it also showed me how much I was putting aside my own needs and feelings, because I didn't want to "scare" him. OP - it's probably exactly true that your wife is trying to put aside her wants, needs, and feelings, to avoid upsetting you, and, as a result, she blows up more when she does blow. And, since I'm also conflict avoidant, I'm certain you get upset and scared. Marriage counseling. Focus on learning to communicate. You will probably need individual counseling, too, to learn to set priorities. But the bottom line is you need practice to get good at anything. Good luck.

That's extremely similar to us. She rarely yells, she lowers her voice and gets extremely clear and intense when she's angry. Or at least, I interpret that as anger/irritation/whatever negative emotion it is. That helps, thank you.

I'm glad it was helpful. In my work, I've had to put my own feelings aside and not take anything personally. But every so often, I realize how much I've put aside to avoid conflict at home. There's nothing I can do to modify my husband's behavior. It doesn't matter how important something is to me, because he'll only act if it's important to him. Even a few things that were pretty important: after surgery a couple of years ago, he picked up the painkillers from the pharmacy - and then went to work for several hours, leaving me in a whole lot of pain, and there was not one single thing I could do about it. Couldn't get another prescription, because it was opioid, couldn't drive even if I could get another prescription, and ... I was angry, and cursing, and ... also knowing that's who he is, and who he'll always be. When I decided to stay with him, it meant I had to deal with that side of him, as well as all the good stuff. Marriage counseling wasn't all that successful for us because he had all kinds of excuses for why he wouldn't change. It takes work from both of you. Good luck.

You need individual therapy.

You keep at it in counseling. Therapy isn’t a magic cure all, it takes work. My impressions based on what you’ve said here: - she is allowed to have “negative” emotions. Not every emotion is directed toward you. She shouldn’t take them out on you, for sure. But the fact that you recognize that she’s irritated because of, say, a set in her shoulders or she purses her lips or something, is not a reason for you to shut down or get defensive. - you accusing her of getting mad in the past did not help this situation. That was not communicating that was just casting blame. Communicating would’ve been, I’m trying to work on not internalizing what I anticipate to be a potentially negative reaction. NOT you always get mad about X. That’s toxic. - she did not deescalate the situation. You were accusatory and instead of taking a step back to say, hey that was unnecessary, she became defensive and the whole argument spiraled. Just like you need to work on not shutting down, she needs to work on not being so reactionary - you’re both unwilling to come back and apologize for your part of the argument after the fact. This is really the most critical piece rn. Deeply engrained bad habits will still pop up in the heat of the moment. That’s human. But after you’ve had a chance to cool down you should reflect and come back together.

>you accusing her of getting mad in the past did not help this situation. That was not communicating that was just casting blame. Communicating would’ve been, I’m trying to work on not internalizing what I anticipate to be a potentially negative reaction. NOT you always get mad about X. That’s toxic. That makes sense. I think we're both coming from a place of intense defensiveness?

It really reads very combative on both your sides. You each, in your own way, take everything the other does or says as an attack

My husband and I are similar – in our psychodrama, I play you. In other words, we both get defensive in a conflict. But while he deflects, denies and gets irritated, I apologise and shut down. We are practising. We both acknowledge the problem and most of the time, if we know it's going to be tricky, we start conversations mindfully and basically say "Let's try not to be defensive". It doesn't always work, but if you keep trying, and you both put effort in, you will make progress.

Stop being afraid of upsetting her, she is supposed to be an adult not a child

You are being a doormat even in the title which I did not get past, to not be a doormat you need to not worry about if disagreement will upset her and just disagree

"My wife and our counselor have both said that I **shouldn't care** **how she feels** and that **I should express my emotions**," "How am I supposed to express myself in a way that **doesn't upset my wife?**" Did you actually go to the counseling session and listen to what was said? Until you can stand up for yourself your doomed. How long has your marriage been sexless. Because your door mat behavior is a real attraction killer for your wife. You need some real work on your self worth. I feel so sorry for you. Good luck brother you're going to need it.

You say you FEEL like she's telling you that your actions are wrong or bad. Has she actually SAID that, or are you just reading into her reactions of frustration? What words have come out of her mouth, either direct or passive aggressive, that have lead you to believe that? From your description, it sounds like you're casting a lot of your feelings of guilt and anxiety onto her reactions. She can be upset and frustrated with situations. You need to practice letting your own anxiety about the situation settle and not immediately think her reaction is all about you. People will accuse her of being abusive towards you, but her saying that she walks on eggshells around you may be true in her reality. How many years has she had to try and guess what you wanted because you won't voice it? Do you have a tendency to be passive aggressive in your actions after a decision is made? I'm not saying you do, but it may be good to reflect.

Good call. I absolutely have a tendency to be passive aggressive. She's called me out on it before (rightfully), and it's a problem we've discussed and I've been working on getting better by trying to voice my disagreements and opinions more plainly. That's why it throws me for a loop when I work hard to state my feelings and she dismisses them or says that I'm wrong about them. Another example on that subject: A while ago she went on vacation with her parents to a location that we had planned to go on our honeymoon years ago but hadn't been able to afford. The kids and I were not invited, and I did my best to explain how hurt I felt about it, but she ignored me (things were very rocky between us at the time). Just recently, she asked if she could go on another trip with her family (without the kids and I). She was asking because she knew that I had a busy schedule at that time and might not be able to make it work with childcare, which I appreciated. But she followed up her request by expressing that if I wouldn't let her go, she'd be really upset and disappointed. So, remembering how the original trip went, I just backed off. It's going to be a struggle for me, but I felt like to do otherwise would be controlling. (I clearly have an abject fear of being the Bad Guy.)

If you think she is telling you “your feelings are wrong” look to the advice on this thread on how to express things. You were telling her she was angry, making assumptions about what is in her mind no matter what she says, not expressing your feelings.

It seems like a large part of the problem is that you don't consider yourself in any decision process. She willingly asked you about what would work, but since she expressed her feelings beforehand, you just assumed the worst. Things have changed between the two of you since that first trip, right? You say you were rocky then, is it still that rocky? Why assume that her reaction of ignoring you would be the same, when the circumstances of her bringing it up to you and offering you space to voice your opinion was changed? You do have an abject fear of being the Bad Guy, but in casting yourself as the "good guy," you're making your wife the Bad Guy. You're making yourself into a matyr by taking on this burden when she literally gave you an out. Conflict isn't a bad thing, it's what strengthens a relationship. You should be partners, not nemeses. She's definitely not blameless, but she's making efforts to include you, even if it may upset her. Let her be disappointed. See how you both react to it now, here in the present, rather than relying on the narratives from the past.

Shutting down is being perceived by her as anger. In a family that gets very vocal when they disagree, the angrier person is sometimes the quieter they get. I've been so furious sometimes that I couldn't talk because I needed to calm down first. You're seeing it as giving in to her just to deescalate the situation, and she's seeing the situation as escalated by a silent fury where are you shut her out and stop expressing yourself. >she insisted that she rarely gets angry, it's my own trauma making me think that she's angry. She actually said that she walks on eggshells all the time to avoid making me angry, because I'm the angry one, not her. This statement is what makes me think that she sees your silence as you fuming with anger instead of you giving in. Because you are silent, but frustrated she can feel there's negative energy coming off of you. That frustration that you feel, she feels too, as anger. Example from her perspective; I'm irritated that he has to work and can't pick me up and he went silent when I expressed that. He must be absolutely furious and so angry he can't even talk it out. I can feel in his demeanor that he is absolutely not happy, he must be so angry. I better not do anything else to make him pissed, because the energy between us is so uncomfortable, so I'm going to walk on eggshells around him. All I did was say that I wasn't happy he couldn't pick me up, I was just expressing how I felt and I didn't expect it to make him so mad. You too absolutely just don't know how to communicate. You're both walking on eggshells around each other accusing the other one of being angry. Perhaps you need to start having the assumption of best intentions. That means you never assume that the other person is angry or is going to get pissed at you. You both always assume that the other person is going to put forth the most kindness and the most acceptance they can and if it fails it was inadvertent and not intentional. Hopefully that can help your communication a little bit.

she is probably terrified not knowing how long he will be shut down for and feels completely helpless to do anything about it. I bet if they get to the point in therapy where she can share how much it scares her, and he's in a place to hear it, it will probably be a breakthrough moment for them. anyone who's been on the receiving end of the habitual shutdown knows that it never stops feeling like abandonment, and we also know that people who don't speak up do finally hit a point where they will leave forever. (he is probably terrified that her anger means she will leave, too. I hope they work it out.)

You practice. Setting boundaries and upholding them is like a muscle. It's hard at the start, but it gets easier. As your therapist said, if she gets upset, that's her problem. How do you deal with it? You practice. I think you need to bring this up in therapy. Mention that you feel like she tells you your emotions are wrong/bad and that's why it's so hard for you to express them. You need a third party to mediate here. How are your boundaries with other people? Are you able to practice them at work and with friends?

My boundaries are terrible. I understand the concept (I think), but applying that to daily life is foreign to me. I can't even really name or vaguely identify any boundaries I have. If someone upsets me enough times I just tend to cut them out to whatever degree I can (because it's safer than conflict, amirite?)

Work with your therapist to create a plan to help you with this. Boundaries are an important part of life and this is something you really need to work on. It will greatly improve all areas of your life.

You have to be ok with her being upset. That's the trick. 

Sometimes yelled dont realize they're being "angry". You have to speak up and say, yes imnperceiving you as angry right now. If you're not angry, then stop yelling.

She's actually not a yeller. When she gets angry, her voice lowers and she speaks very slowly. Still triggering to me after 20 years though.

Maybe she’s just really frustrated. There are all kinds of emotions and people are allowed to have them.

My first suggestion is to work with your own therapist on distress tolerance. It's all well and good to say that the other person's feelings are there own responsibility but if you've grown up in a situation where you had to be hypervigilant of caregivers moods for your own security that's hard to do. The good news is that it's a skill you can build. I got a lot out of DBT therapy specifically, it's worth looking into. Exercises that helped me: cognitive distortions, what are my feelings telling me, DEARMAN, GIVEFAST.

This is gonna sound dumb but I think it's important, it's practice like anything else.  Go and stand in front of the mirror. Say no, say it a bunch of ways, tones, volumes, levels of emotions of different types. Then think about things that make you angry, things that make you feel helpless, then let the anger fuel the no out of your mouth over the helplessness. Again. And again. Say no until it has gone from weird to forceful and powerful to losing all meaning.  Then start practicing saying it in your day to day.  Why are YOUR emotions and wants less important than anyone else's? They aren't. Practice being selfish and stubborn 

Your title is contradictory, not being a doormat means you have to be okay with upsetting someone sometimes when you want to get your point across and letting the person know how you feel and think. Maybe try to do it in a constructive way.

It sounds like your wife wants to save your marriage. You do not want to be a doormat anymore, so you need to listen to the suggestions of your therapists (I went though this 15 years ago and it was initially hard, and then so liberating). When your wife asks you to do something like she did, before you answer, make yourself think about therapy and what they told you that you should do (give your answer without an apology). Your wife will know that this is what you need to learn to do, and even if she gets mad, it will probably be short lived. What will be amazing is that you will find that when you do this, life is going to get better for both of you, your marriage will get better, and your children will have healthier role models. For me the most freeing moment of my life was when I started setting boundaries, and did not permanently lose any loved ones from my life (a few distanced themselves for a while), no disaster occurred in my life, and relationships were better moving forward

So you’re having joint marriage counselling? Sounds like you could both do with some individual counselling. You to learn to be more assertive and her to learn anger management. Your childhoods shouldn’t be used as an excuse for your behaviours as adults.

The pedestrian things that make a household function, i.e. who's taking the kids on which day, shouldn't even become emotional. It's scheduling and communication. Let her know in advance when you've got an inflexible work day coming up so she can plan around it and have reasonable expectations. If she's got a degenerative illness it'll probably become increasingly important to have household assistance. Family, friends, paid helpers, babysitters, cleaners, et al may become something you both rely on more often if she's unable to do things. It'll always be frustrating to watch your body deteriorate. The individual counseling she's receiving will probably help mitigate some of that. But if you can both agree that there'll be days when your tasks have to be farmed out to others that might take some of the pressure off. You may always feel that your personality type is overly 'people pleasing'. But you can probably eliminate some of the friction points by setting up systems that make daily life less stressful.

Saying you apologized because she got mad in the past puts on on her. It would have been different if you said that you apologized because you felt bad about having to prioritize work over your family for that day. 

Is your wife also in therapy WITH you? Like, are you attending together? If not, that could be helpful. Just because you're the one who wants to work on these things doesn't mean she also doesn't have anything to work on. Sounds like she ought to be managing herself better as well. Yes it would be good for you to get to the point of feeling confident and not stuffing feelings down, but what is she taking responsibility for? Her way of doing things is not a standard. This is a partnership where both can learn from and modulate behavior to benefit the other. As for what you're going through, I totally get it, and I'm similar. It takes time. Practice. "Do It Scared" is a phrase I like a lot and have been leaning on lately. Doing things we are afraid of, while being afraid, gives us the practice we need to eventually do the thing without the fear, but it takes time. Hang in there!

Yes, she sees a therapist twice a month and we have occasional sessions together with a marriage counsellor. I've bounced around between therapists because I haven't found a good one yet who will call me on my bullshit and it's so expensive. I used up my insurance coverage for the year months ago. "Do it scared" is great. That's similar to what I tell my kids all the time when they're worried about something. Guess I need to internalize it?

Therapy is expensive but worth it, if you find the right one. Your comment about being called out on your bullshit makes me kinda sad, not that I know you at all but it feels like there's some internalized self-esteem stuff going on. I've had a ton of amazing results with the therapy method known as brainspotting. It's like magic, sounds weird, but it's REALLY helpful. Highly recommend it if you can find someone who does that. One session of that resolves stuff that it would normally take me months if not years to process.

You aren’t gonna get anywhere with this in couples therapy. This is something you need individual therapy to address.

You should speak up for yourself and set healthy boundaries!

> I (43M) am a doormat to my wife (42F). How can I express disagreement without upsetting her? You can't. And that shouldn't be your main priority.  Your main objective is “how can I express disagreement in a way that gets my point across?" This is about YOU getting what you want.  It's Hard, but in this situation, your wide gets angry at you for saying sorry? Well, who cares. At this point, stop explaining. This is not a situation in which you explain your emotions or your reactions. She asked you if you can do something, you said no. She didn't like the way you said it, turning the attention to herself and her emotions. Just end the conversation. 

Are you angry? It sounds like you are even it you express it differently. I think you might both be right. Your therapist said you should say how you feel, you did that. It spent mean she needs to agree or you should keep fighting about it. It sounds like you both picked at this fight and turned a little thing into a big thing. If you want to revisit it, I would let her know that you are working on yourself, and don’t appreciate her calling you out about apologizing and ask that she doesn’t do that in the future unless it’s with the therapist.

I wish my husband could answer you. He is an oak tree.

Maybe express yourself without commenting on her reaction past or present. Tell her your feelings without saying you're worried she might get angry. Let her handle her feelings about it on her own. Worry about standing up for yourself and what you want. Let her manage her stronger reactions.

A lot of people have said a lot of great things here already, so I won’t rehash, but I’m also noticing that it seems like where things broke down is when you wanted to share your emotions about her emotions, which is a separate thing from expressing your emotions about a situation. While you shouldn’t feel the need to keep emotions to yourself, you also switched the conversion about who was going to shuttle the kids to how you felt about her being annoyed that you weren’t available when she expects you to be. Substituting how you felt about her emotions around the subject of the conversation derailed you getting to the solution to the pertinent problem that was the reason for the conversation.

OP. You need to find a different therapist, one who specializes, or at least has experience, in childhood trauma and growing up with controlling parents who raised you to never question things and instead always listen.

The real question is, what are you paying your counselor for if you’re still out here asking random people on the internet for advice about your relationship? This situation is clearly above the pay grade of your current counselor and they’re not helping you enough. Given the trauma in both your and your wife's past, you need to work with a therapist who specializes in trauma-informed care. Not every therapist is trained to deal with issues like trauma, so it's worth the effort to find one who can truly help you. It’s obvious that this counselor is not competent in dealing with trauma by how they are telling you to just ignore how your wife’s reactions are making you feel instead of diving deeper and helping you unpack why you’re being so triggered by her. I can tell you that your wife’s behavior is putting you into a state of emotional flashback into your childhood, when you were helpless and had no agency, and that’s why you’re feeling unable to stand up for yourself as an adult. When you’re flashed back, your brain puts you back into the “freeze/fawn” state that kept you safe in childhood, but makes you a doormat as an adult. This is a complex issue and you need a specialized therapist to help you through it. The counselor you’re seeing now, in their ignorance, is going to end up doing you and your wife more harm than good. Therapists aren’t always a perfect match right off the bat. You might need to try out several therapists before finding the right fit.

Other commenters aren't wrong, but I also see a different quality than the DARVO or the boundaries observations... You guys are not used to following an "us against the problem" mentality, and then due to your individual histories, even small snags tend to spiral out of control as you try to legislate each other's feelings... Instead, try to focus on talking about the future, instead of digging up the past. If the issue is "kid needs someone to take them for (activity) on (day)", and you can't do it that day, that's okay -- but instead of flatly saying "no" period, try to offer solutions. Remember there is no inherent conflict here, it doesn't have to be her vs you... You are both on the same team, you both want the same outcome (that kid gets enrichment or bonding time), so figure it out together. Maybe it means picking a different day, maybe it means getting a babysitter or neighbor or family to help, maybe it means moving your schedule around, but there should be plenty of options to achieve the shared outcome, so long as you prevent yourselves from falling into those self-limiting and adversarial communication patterns. Outside of any specific debate or conflict, get your wife to agree to try the "us against the problem" shared mentality. If a scenario comes up, and you are falling off the wagon, then instead of retreating to old patterns, try to consciously interrupt BOTH of your trains of thought, and either of you can declare: "hey, TIMEOUT, I think we lost the thread here, and we're not doing 'us-against-the-problem' anymore, so let's reset and go back to discussing options for achieving the shared goal?"

Stop apologizing and worrying about if your wife is upset. People get upset that's life. You have the right to own opinion and it's not the end of the world if she gets upset. You are annoying your wife because of your obsession of not making her upset.

I have no answers. I could have written this myself almost word for word. I was thinking that we should try counseling but I wonder if our experiences will end up the same way.

Who cares if you upset her . She knows younare a doormat and isn’t going to change unless she thinks she can loose you . Only thing I can really say is at councillor meeting say twice I had my bags packed and I was going to hotel and divorce lawyer . I am not doing it anymore . No more Marriage councilling . She needs individual therapy cause inhave one foot out the door and next time its divorce

I can’t tell my wife anything without her crying so I just avoid it. I feel you op. I need answers too.

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I can be a crybaby. And it makes me so frustrated!! I'm like, I swear I'm not manipulating you to get my way 😭. It's just what happens in intense/serious conversation. I sometimes tell whoever I'm talking with to just ignore my crying, cause it's basically just a byproduct of the conversation. I agree with what you said! Also, if the crying *is* a form of getting their way, the other person should still stand their ground and continue the conversation, cause ending the conversation because the other person is crying will only show them that it's an effective way to get their way

The short answer is you can't You just have to stand up for yourself and set hard boundaries. Let the chips fall where they may, if its something she is not willing to compromise with then I think you know the next step

Please check out Om Rupani’s work on YouTube, he has a book and has also done a lot of interviews if you search Spotify or other streaming platforms…may be helpful perspective in your situation. Sounds like the power/respect dynamics are way off and it will take work to correct, but can be done over time and with enough commitment 🙌

Some things that have helped me with boundaries and focusing on regulating myself and not the conflict or the other person's feelings: -taking care of myself physically: food, sleep, and fun are mission essential to mental health.  -carving out time for all the reflection and going over events from as many different perspectives as I can. In the beginning I was obsessed with impartiality and so I would try to remember verbatim what they said to catch myself from rewriting their words to match my feelings. Then I would reread the exact dialogue and try to see where it was an emotional interpretation and where it wasn't. As I got better, I learned to see where they were misinterpreting me.  -never tell someone how they feel. Even if you are correct. Point to behaviors and how you are interpreting them. Get better on your own at having an accurate interpretation of her behaviors. Maybe you two can do this together.  -when someone is derailing the conversation, be mature in keeping it on track. Do not further derail. This is another practiceable skill that contributes to better conversations.  Part of growth here is finding all the ways inside yourself you feel you have to apologize for existing and peel back the layers on that til you've let it go. This is a recursive and nonlinear process. As you get better you will notice when you are slipping and then be able to reflect and ascertain why and correct it. So, now you know you have a compulsion to apologize when someone is asking for your time and you have to tell them no. Hopefully this can be a quick mental correction--'I know intellectually that I never have to apologize for being at work, but I don't know it emotionally, so when work and time come up and I feel the urge to apologize, I ignore that emotion and go with my intellect because I know over time it will make me healthier ' anyways, to get to reflection, which is the process of developing your mental tool kit of thought pathways, which is the application of lessons learned. Writing is about universally helpful for reflection. You also have to get to know yourself. which is a creative process of creating fertile ground for insight among othee things.  also, I don't know where you got the idea that you are the problem, but it's a pretty fucked up idea. Communication, which is a 2-way street, may be the problem. Trauma responses and not having learned any better and deep habits may be the problem. Fear may be the problem. You are not. Most of my good friends are doormats and it is only ever a problem when 3rd parties are involved. I don't know where that idea came from but it is very very very much worth reflecting on

Upset her.

Start off reading what you write. First you write that you want to express disagreement without uppsetting her, then you write that you have to learn to not care about her feelings. You do realize those statement are in conflict? I usually instruct people to see it as an excercise in doing something different. In general beeing able to hear others concern and appologizing is a good thing but to be able to find the correct balance you also need to be able to stand your ground with boundaries as well as needs. You aren't able to find a good balance because you can't do the last part. You need to practice doing that without doing the first part. Once you are able to do both you can be assertive. So your question is wrong, you should lean in to making her upset from time to time.

Assertiveness training will help.

>For example: last night she asked if I could take the kids somewhere after school next week. I usually have a very flexible work schedule, but this particular day was one where I had to be at work. I told her no, I couldn't do it, and apologized (just a quick "sorry"). >She became irritated that I apologized (not that I said no), and my gut reaction was to shut down and apologize for apologizing. But because I'm supposed to be more open and vulnerable and explain how I'm feeling without worrying about her action, I explained that in the past, she has often been angry if I'm unavailable due to work. >That only made her more irritated I agree that you need to care less about your wife's emotions, you don't have the ability or responsibility to manage her feelings and need to care more about yourself. The part I disagree with is you being more expressive about your feelings. It serves no purpose in this specific situation, which is common, and only opens up the situation for further conflict. Beyond that it reinforces any negative biases on her side. First thing to learn is JADE. This means don't Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain. Each of these things reinforce your partners negative biases, and undermine your own personal beliefs/values/opinions (Google JADE Out of the fog) Next grab the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. It will dig a bit deeper into something you already acknowledge, how being a people pleaser leads to resentment within yourself and also within the people close to you. It also has a concept similar to JADE which is DEER (don't Defend, Explain, Excuse/Evade, or Rationalize) and it seems evade has been one of your go to moves for a long time. More then anything this book explains why being more assertive and priorizing yourself over others is a key to happiness and healthy relationships. The next book is When I Say No I Feel Guilty. This may shine a little light on how you became a door mat, but more importantly will give you tools to better handle conflict instead of using JADE or DEER. Stop expressing your feelings and start setting boundaries.

I am like you., and I told my ex that I was his doormat and ALWAYS gave into him. I never want to cause an upset so I backdown. What I’ve learned though is that when I backdown my ex perceived it as me being mad and ignoring him. My ex (had many flaws) but he was excellent at communication. One day he said, “now you’re silent. I can’t read your mind. You get mad and ignore me and I have to walk on eggshells.”That’s when I realized that my “backing down” which I thought was my way of giving him his way. I only realized this because he’s good at reading me and communicating. Unfortunately my body and mind shut down when we argued. I had to work on saying how I felt, what I wanted and to make certain to ask him if I was reading him and his body language accurately. It took me awhile to learn how to express how I felt in the moment. My mind just goes completely blank during arguments. It may be weird but I had to actually act out scenarios and what to say when I made or sad. It helped. Unfortunately we aren’t together anymore longer but it wasn’t because of communication.

Stop backing down. Saying no to her requests isn’t wrong, nor a crime, nor will her world end. Please stop reacting to how she sounds and listen to the words she actually says.

You have been a doormat, she will be upset. But it will not kill her or you if she is upset. Have backbone. State your case, if she is upset, SHE IS UPSET, so effing what. Apparently you both need to grow up. Big you live in fear of upsetting her you will get nowhere

In general the question should never be “how can I express disagreement without upsetting the person I’m disagreeing with?” Disagreements with someone you care about are by definition upsetting. The focus should be on whether or not you know why you’re disagreeing and that your expression of disagreement is true to yourself and as kind as you can make it to whomever you’re speaking with. That they’re upset and how they handle that is entirely their issue

>The big thing our marriage counsellor stressed recently was that I shouldn't be concerned about how my wife will react if I disagree. If she's going to be angry, that's her problem, not mine. There is your answer. Sorry but if you disagree it will upset her. You need to accept that so you guys can learn to communicate and work through disagreements productively

I think it’s okay if she annoyed or disappointed if you’re setting a boundary. She’s allowed to feel disappointed if things don’t go the way she hoped. I think you adjusting because she’s feeling disappointed, makes her feel like she can’t feel disappointed without it’s affecting you. When it’s completely normal to be a bit down when things don’t go the way you’d want. I think if she’s down, that’s okay. But don’t react to that by trying to ‘fix’ it. People are allowed to be sad. People are allowed to set boundaries. People are allowed to be sad you set boundaries. People shouldn’t change boundaries just because people are sad (or mad) when boundaries happen.

The problem is giving into your own conflict avoident behavior. Accept that with her personality, she may get loud and aggressive. As you said, her childhood dynamics taught her this attitude to be heard. It will be uncomfortable, but you need to stick it out, no matter how uncomfortable it becomes. Be like a statue standing strong and silent during a storm Try to remain calm and remind her that you hear and understand her position; that she does not need to get loud and aggressive for you to hear her; remind her that she needs to listen to your views and concerns, too or the two of you cannot reach a resolution. If necessary, sit down and take deep breaths. Tell her to do the same. If she doesn't, stay there, like a state, but ignore her behavior until she quiets down. Tell her you will not continue the conversation until she calms down, BUT DON'T LEAVE THE ROOM unless she gets physical. It will get easier with practice

Just stop giving AF.

I actually had the same issue as you. Every time my partner was upset, I felt responsible, even if it had nothing to do with me, and felt like I needed to fix it. One day, he was clearly angry, yelling at cars intraffic and mumbling under his breath, and I was heavily pregnant and tired of it. I just thought to myself, "fuck it, he is a grown ass man, and I'm not responsible for his feelings. He needs to regulate his own damn emotions. This is not my problem to fix." From then on, I'd still ask if he was OK and if I could do anything when he was upset, but if he said no, I'd just leave it alone and go about my life. As long as they aren't making their bad mood your problem by being disrespectful to you or making you feel unsafe, then it's really none of your business.

Honestly, you need to do a pros and cons list of what the possible consequences of you setting boundaries could be. Then ask yourself if those consequences are worse than the hell you’re living in now. I am willing to bet that they won’t be even on paper. Then you can set those boundaries confident in the fact that however she reacts, you can handle, and can handle with dignity.

So stop apologizing. I think she gets upset when you apologize because then it makes it seem like she did something to you worth apologizing over. Not everything needs to be followed with a sorry and it’s annoying for the other person to feel as such. Here are some nice phrases to employ next time she disagrees with what you say about trivial things ‘uh huh’, ‘like I said my love I can’t/wont/am not able to’, ‘No’. If you want to people please then people generally like being denied stuff from time to time in relationships. Nobody likes a doormat so ultimately your instinct to conflict avoid is selfish.

Maybe consider writing it down first.

Nice guys finish last for a reason. If she gets upset that’s her problem to deal with. A woman has to respect her partner as a man. Stand up for yourself.

Take a very specific issue with you to your counsellor each time. Take this one! Describe exactly what was said and who said what. Talk through every point with the counsellor there. Your wife may appear TO YOU to be angry when she's frustrated. It may be your interpretation that's off. She may be over-emphatic with her frustration, because you refuse to engage. Sometimes, you can disagree with her without her being upset and sometimes you can't (it depends), but being upset will not harm her. You have already found that your present approach upsets her, and she's lived through it, so why not try being honest? I get that your upbringing has had a severe effect on your behaviour, but it's time to put that behind you and learn to behave like an adult for both your sakes.

It sounds like she needs counseling to learn how to deal with her reactions and express her emotions appropriately.

I would stop doing the joint counseling for a while because she's using that to manipulate you. Stick to the individual therapy. I will say, I think you probably are angry at your wife, but are holding it all in. My recommendation as a fellow people-pleaser: stop apologizing. It is SO DIFFICULT to do. But stop saying I'm Sorry. I've had to start putting a LOT more thought into what I say before the words leave my mouth, and my sentences have gotten longer. Instead of "No, I can't do it that day, sorry." try something like "no, I can't do Tuesday, that's the one day I have to go into the office. Can we do a different day?" Ask your therapist to help you role play real-life scenarios so you can practice responding to things your wife has said without apologizing.

Before you have your next "discussion " , carry a voice activated recorder.  Play it back for her. 

Disagreements are going to happen in every relationship. You don't share a brain. Heck, even one person can have mixed feelings about their own choices. If she's constantly getting upset and angry any time you disagree, then maybe your relationship isn't what you think it is. What are you going to do if you find out she cheated? Sorry hun, it was all my fault you cheated, please keep doing it so I learn the error of my ways.

She needs to back the fuck off after you say no. She needs to work with you here and be understanding of your tendency to over-apologize, instead of digging in on you. Next time you have a disagreement, tell her no and that you are not going to talk about it anymore. The conversation ends at “no.” Full stop. She needs to quit her harassment after the fact.

Op you are the classic Mr Nice Guy who is avoidant and scarred to speak up because of disapproval you have had every time growing up and how your needs have always been ignored. You seriously need to read the book No More Mr Nice Guy it will massively resonate with you massively. You physically can’t be honest with your feelings as you have been so conditioned to think you will disappoint people and they will reject and abandon you. Unfortunately for you your wife is the worst type of character for some like you she has thrived on your frozen state it’s allowed her toxic traits to flourish and has caused a perfect storm. She can tell that you are not happy and because she has normalised a conflict heavy relationship in her upbringing she needs to cause the conflict to ensure that you still care and with you not engaging in that conflict it drives she even more nuts. If you read the book and action what Dr Glover advocates it may cause the end of your marriage I say that because your wife needs serious help with her own issues and she may spiral with you asserting your boundaries and expressing your wants and needs. Seriously the book is an amazing read for any man that is a silent ball of rage unable to ask and express there wants and needs and spend their lives in quite desperation because they have been told if they are not a good boy no one will ever love them. Good luck Op

The one thing that pisses me off when I am upset and I express that to my husband is that he then gets angry at me and starts acting like he is the victim. I had to point blank tell him that it is not okay for you to get angry at me for being upset. I'm allowed to have feelings. I don't believe for one minute that you are the angry one. However, it would have been most logical for you to get angry when she said that bullshit. However, she just called you the angry one and you don't want to prove her right... Here is my advice: Give yourself permission to be angry at her. Give yourself permission to not automatically apologize. Is she walking on eggshells??? WELL IT IS ABOUT DAMN TIME. Because this woman has been steamrolling your entire relationship. Tell her that her walking on eggshells is her trying to learn more healthy behaviors and Be Kind to her partner, rather than aggressive. Keep going with this. Reduce your apologies. She may actually be learning something. LET HER FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE. Don't fix it. That is her growing.

Your counselor sucks balls. She should be addressing your wife's weird raging, and help her manage how she responds to your avoiding conflict. I have met several people over the years, a couple of them were friends, who went into counseling because they themselves were fucked up, and were not necessarily good at helping others. I had a friend years ago who gave monstrously bad advice, and she now is counseling others. I would get my own therapist, and have them recommend someone else. This counselor clearly is not getting through to your wife at all.

Read the book "no more mr nice guy"

She's abusive AF. It doesn't matter if she has a degenerative disorder, do you like being yelled at all the time, treated this way, and having to walk on eggshells? Leave this horrible person.

Yup, she's the abusive one op. As everyone has outlined, she's 100% repeatedly pulling DARVO. If the two of you are going to work she needs to accept that she's the aggressor and if she wants to communicate with you she needs, to be frank, to learn when to shut the hell up.

Why are you worried about upsetting HER, since she has no problem upsetting YOU?

Why would she get irritated that you said no, sorry. That's a normal response to someone asking if you can do something but you can't. Would it have been better for just a flat out no? Then she'd complain how abrupt you were. Your counsellor is wrong saying you shouldn't care how she feels, that person should be telling HER that she should care how you feel and not belittle you for expressing something that conflicts with what she wants. You need a new therapist, this one sucks. Your wife is in the avoidant stage, so she feels defensive, and until she's forced to realize that she is more aggressive than you, she'll never change. I can't tell you how to confront someone or how to make someone not be irritated with you, because we're different, but you both need to learn how to communicate better and a new therapist could help.

Is she still crippled? Did she get multiple sclerosis? Is she like Christina Applegate?

OMG Christina Applegate has MS? Yes, it's MS.

Ok, so what happened was, there is a whole set of theories about mind and how everything is psychosomatic. I mean, everything! Even car accidents or airplane crashes are psychosomatic. This is an old church of beliefs about the mind and how it is connected to the reality that we project. This church goes by different names, like The Church of Religious Science or Science of Mind. Their best exponent is Louis L. Hay. This belief is not based on authority or dogma, but it is just about the efficacy of the teachings solving people's problems and misery. To make the story short, you ought to get the book "You can heal your life" by Louis L. Hay. I knew that this was about MS because the energy that I can sense from your wife. Basically, her energy is the energy of MS. She is really really really hard on herself. This is a pattern in her conscience that she must release, but for that she has to believe first that she creates her reality with her thoughts. We can convert other people, but I am just letting you know about the book and the concepts that are not really something that people want to believe in, but they work. MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS COMES FROM MENTAL HARDNESS, HARD-HEARTEDNESS, IRON WILL, INFLEXIBILITY, FEAR. AFFIRMATION TO RELEASE THIS PATTERN: By choosing loving, joyous thoughts, I create a loving, joyous world. I am safe and free. Send me a private message if you would like to discuss this further. Peace.

She sounds terrible, why waste your life away , let her be sick and alone