So your bf was holding your hand and with the other hand secretly groping her all the while hoping you or her husband wouldn't glance over. Too drunk to remember big stuff like being carried but of sound enough mind to know he was touching her intentionally. Yeah I don't buy it. Not to say there's a zero chance it happened. But what's more likely? He did what she said he did or she was squirming around on the seat vomiting into a bucket and felt a brush of his hand while maybe he was preventing her from falling into the foot area. The problem as I see it isn't is your BF a creep that finds vomiting women so irresistible he can't help groping at a time and place where it's more likely than not he'd be caught. No the real problem is the black-out sister believes it and for all intents and purposes is going through what an actual groping victim would be going through. It's like people going through night-terrors or complex PTSD. Even when they know it didn't happen they're experiencing the event and you have to deal with those feelings. The feelings are real even if the event didn't happen. Love her, be there for her. Acknowledge that her feelings are real but that you were there and it didn't happen. She's going to have to sort-out how she wants to proceed from there.

Yea this is basically the placebo effect. I think she just needs to go through the stages of grief before she can rationalize what happened and be at peace of it. Hopefully this will deter her from consuming too much alcohol going forward.

And get her into rehab. 30 year olds should not be getting blackout drunk. All the liver damage is permanent at 30 years of age.

Lol. Not everyone who drinks are alcoholics. And yes 30 year olds will cut loose once in a while.

Cut loose is getting buzzed. What this describes is stupid and dangerous.

Not a sign someone needs rehab though

> cut loose is getting buzzed 💀💀💀

lol for you. for others its a once every couple years of drinking too much in the company of family and friends.

I am a 30F and I get black out drunk every blue moon. Granted I do it at home and my boyfriend gets entertained by my silliness. I also don't drink enough to puck though. I don't do it out in public, bc I don't want to put myself in a bad situation. I will get buzzed but not more. The first comment said it perfectly. And it seems your bf wants to work through it so I would give him the benefit of the doubt and also try to support your sister with out belittling her. She obviously feels like she was mistreated and had valid feelings. But you were there keeping her safe and it did not happen so it's a miss understanding. But she still needs to come to terms with her feelings.

Touching her where? I can't figure out the physics of this. She's in the middle of the two of you, her head is on your knees, and her feet is on top of your boyfriend's. Is she claiming he's touching her butt? Sounds more like she was rubbing her butt on him if she's sprawled over both you.

she said his hand went through from the back to the front.

back to front of *what*. her crotch? if she's laying across the two of you and he's holding one of your hands, i find it hard to believe that he was able to covertly get his other hand into her ass and cootch over her jeans. if she was blackout vomiting drunk then she may be misremembering where different parts of the night went or putting wrong pieces together. I'm sure your sister believes that's what happened, but she was plastered. how could she be that confident when she was so drunk she was naked puking in the bathroom?

It seems like it would be totally obvious to the OP if he was reaching across with his outside hand like that.

yeah , boyfriend needs to go for the hills..

Do you honestly think he could do this while holding your hand? And if so do you think he could do so without anyone noticing? What's the husband's view of the situation?

So if she was laying on her side to be able to lean and throw up presumably her knees were together. I'm confused by how physically he could have wedged his hand between her thighs and done a crotch rub without it being super obvious. Also, how is her husband reacting to this?

i’m not sure. my sister hasn’t said anything to me about him and he hasn’t answered the message my bf sent him asking to talk about the situation and resolve the misunderstanding.

This isn't enough. Your sister is aware of the possible ramifications of this accusation. You can't accuse someone of something, be fuzzy on the details, not even remember other events that took place, and expect your story to be credible. If you're really close with your sister, do you think she'd be jealous of the time you're spending with your bf? Does she have a history of needing attention? There's got to be something else here. It's definitely wise to be careful with her feelings and be there for her, but imagine how bad this is for your bf. You believe your sister out of love. You believe your bf out of trust and logic... she needs to be more forthcoming. If she went through that, truly, I feel for her. Still, this isn't enough from her to warrant that accusation, and what it could mean if she wanted prosecution, as well.

Seems to me your bf is doing all the right things wanting to chat to SIL & her hubby. I’m definitely siding with your partner for sure.

I can see why you’re so conflicted. It sounds like youve already done some soul searching to think if this matches any patterns for your bf and it doesn’t.  Bc of that and the fact that your sister was SO drunk, I think I’d choose to believe my bf.  Not calling your sister a liar, just possibly mistaken.  If she can’t remember being helped butt naked in a bathroom stall, I wouldn’t want to blow up my life for her otherwise surprising revelation.

Does it match any patterns from sis as well.

patterns go out the window when you're drunk

As a bartender, no, patterns are just fully disinhibited. If anything, drunk people are usually the same type of drunk every time I’ve found.

How do you think I could go about getting her to see it this way? I don’t want to gaslight her. I believe her. but i also believe him. i think she was mistaken as well but i don’t want it to feel like a betrayal if i believe him as well. i would be devastated if i was in her position

You can believe that she didn’t like where he was touching her while acknowledging his hands had to go somewhere as she was laying across him. She well may have mis-read the situation. She’s likely super embarrassed.

Also OP did say that he was holding her hand. I wonder if her hand was in her lap or across her stomach as she was laying in the back seat and she misinterpreted it being so drunk. If she was throwing up just the movements of her body as she was throwing up could also make hands slide and it appeared that way to her Edit. Also if he is at her feet and trying to keep her from falling as they are driving or her being sick, his hands could very well accidentally touch in the wrong area.

I was thinking this, or if she was wearing a seatbelt. The seatbelt might have pressed on her torso in a way that she thought it was an arm or hand.

100% where my brain went. She could have also been slipping off of his lap and he went to readjust her and she mistook it for a handsy moment. Also . . . she was wearing tight jeans. Those things make it hard to maneuver yourself, let alone another person in the back of a cramped car when said drunk person is also slipping around and actively vomiting.

I agree. OP, you believe that she believes he was touching her inappropriately but she needs to understand that her memory of that night has a very high chance of being incorrect. The one time I got that drunk, I can honestly say that I did not trust my memory. My sister told me some stuff I did and I believe her - but I was mortified that I couldn’t remember it. Maybe you can tell her some of the stuff that happened and ask her if she remembers it; or better yet, as her to tell you some other things that happened to see what else she actually remembers. Someone touching inappropriately is something that would sort of “wake” someone up but also you were there with your bf in the backseat, holding his hand. You have some memories as well.

I think it’s definitely possible someone groped or touched her at some point in the night at the bar or elsewhere, but maybe she’s associating it with the drive home because she has more clear memories of that time? Idk, from what you describe it doesn’t sound all the possible it was your BF. I’d start with going over the entire night and seeing what she remembers and what you remember. Then explaining that you were in the car with her, where his hands were positioned, and all the other info to let her know that you believe her when she says she believes she was assaulted and that you are there to support her as well. But you were right there with her and your bf and would’ve noticed if he had been doing that in the vehicle. That it’s possible because of how much she drank she’s fuzzy on details and time lines and something might have happened but it wasn’t from him. And if you had noticed that or thought for a second it was possible that he’d be gone in a second because you wouldn’t tolerate that bullshit happening to anyone, let alone your sister.

The problem is, if she *actually* believes that he did this to her, then you choosing to stay with him/believe him/believe she was mistaken, **is** going to feel like a betrayal. Unfortunately, this is one of those no win situations where you have to accept that one of the parties here is going to feel betrayed by whatever you do, and then act according to whatever feels most right to you. It fucking sucks, and I'm so sorry you're in this position, but there's no scenario here where everyone wins. You just have to do what you think is right.

How do you think he's going to feel after it comes out from her that he groped her when he almost certainly didn't? How will it look with his friends with OP for example? He's going to be labeled as someone who sexually assaults people if she sides with her sister knowing full well that it probably isn't true.

Telling the truth isn't gaslighting. You were holding his hand, and unless your sister is all of four feet tall, her vomiting with her legs in his lap, he would've had to reach his hand forward and up and over her legs to do what she's accusing. In front of you. Bodies shift and move while driving. And vomiting. You just need to be straight with your sister that you were literally right there and it didn't see anytying in such a small space. Your sister decided to drink to the point of vomiting and black out. Warped sense of reality and bad memory are a consequence of that. You need to back up your boyfriend, your sister is playing with fire that can have serious negative impacts on his personal and professional life.

You don't believe her though? You don't think your boyfriend touched her. Tell her you understand she thinks she remembers this but you were right there in the car, holding his hand the whole time and there's just no possibility it happened. Tell her you'd support her if you thought there was even a chance it happened but she was blackout drunk, doesn't actually remember major things that happened and so you can't believe you missed your boyfriend groping her and she somehow remembers this one thing clearly.

Tell her you were right there, and it didn't happen. She was slammed and is not remembering correctly. Tell her you understand her feelings and empathize with her, but be firm that it didn't happen.

You don't. You explain to her you were there and there isn't a way of him doing that. What does her husband think? And seriously though. Was he holding your hand throughout?

Either way, your relationship is most likely over. If you take your BF’s side, things will never be the same with you and your sister as long as you 2 are together. Holidays will be incredibly awkward. Then there’s your parents. It’s eventually going to come up, if it hasn’t already. If I was your BF I’d run for the hills. There really is no going back with this accusation.

Definitely agreeing with this comment. If your boyfriend has never given you any reason to believe he could act that way and she was THAT drunk, I would definitely believe him as she was most likely to be mistaken. I would talk to her about just that, that you believe she was uncomfortable but you also believe that he didn’t touch her inappropriately. If she was that drunk and couldn’t remember much, it is possible her embarrassment could be causing her discomfort and she doesn’t want that spotlight on the embarrassment but rather her discomfort. And unfortunately he is the one at the other end of that stick. I think it is important that both be heard, but absolutely don’t throw away your relationship over such a drunken night for your sister. That isn’t fair to your bf OR to you 🙏🏼 You can love your sister to death but if you truly believe your boyfriend you have to make sure you stick by his side. Your sister isn’t going to be the one you want to sleep with and love for the rest of your life, ideally he is.

i want to do this. but i know she isn’t going to believe me. i don’t know how to fix this. my boyfriend is really sad too. this sucks.

Do you believe your boyfriend, with every fiber of your being? If so, then choose him. She can’t even remember the bathroom, if your bf is a great man then it would be foolish of you to let him go just because your sister is going to be upset from a night she can hardly remember and is embarrassed by. Have the discussion with her, or both at the same time if possible. If she has a problem with it then that’s her problem and maybe she should stop drinking so much. Now if you think your boyfriend is capable of this and would have any reason to, which I’m guessing it’s a 0% chance given all the variables, then leave him and move on to the next guy and NEVER go drinking with your next bf and another woman around so you don’t have to run into this again.

I would give it time.  I agree with many other commenters that she is likely mistaken in her memory, due to how drunk she was. She’s not lying, just misremembering.  However, it _feels_ real to her, and those feelings do matter. The emotions of distress are clearly very real, even though they don’t reflect the actual facts of the situation.  Give her time and space to process her feelings, and hopefully  in time she’ll be able to see this for herself - that memories from being blackout drunk aren’t necessarily trustworthy, no matter how “real” they seem.  If anyone else tries to tell her this, she’s going to feel gaslit. So just tell her you support and love her, and then give her time and space to work through it on her own.  _Don’t_ make any major decisions right now, and _don’t_ let your boyfriend reach out to her, by any means. Treat her feelings of being victimized as real, basically, but without taking it out on him in any way.   Just give her time and space to process on her own, and hope she’s able to see reason when she’s ready.  If she’s a like a generally healthy and reasonable person who loves you, she’ll get there eventually - but it has to be on her own terms and at her own pace.  There’s really no other way out of this clusterfuck otherwise - I’m so sorry you’re going through this!  It sounds like a group of people who genuinely care about each other and are just in an impossible spot.  So yeah hang in there, because there’s really nothing else you can do to improve the situation but wait for her to come to her senses on her own. 

I mean, she was extremely intoxicated. She doesn't know what happened at all. Also, your boyfriend was literally right next to you the entire time. How did she even know who was touching her if she was face down and puking? Your sister sounds like a very unreliable narrator based on your story.

Hang on, can I ask why you're conflicted over this? You were sat next to him and he was holding your hand. He then helps you carry your drunken sister up to bed, again with you and her boyfriend around. She doesn't remember throwing up, but somehow remembers a man holding your hand also touching her? Hell it's not even a case of believing your bf, you were literally right there.

the subtext here is that, she airs on the side that the bf is probably didn't do this, and any perception of this is likely a misinterpretation of events. The real issue here is that the sister is CONVINCED he did, and will not hear reason. Which normally means, she's at fault and you ignore her. But it's so much more complicated because of the degree of relationships between each party. She's her sister, and they're close, OP stated as much, that means as of right now this relationship means more to her than the boyfriend's. As delicate as a subject as this is, asking her to hear him out, from her sister's perspective is ignoring her grievances and forcing her to sit down with the man she thinks took advantage of her. And again, we're on reddit we don't know, there is a non 0 % chance this is true. That would FEEL like a betrayal on the sister's part, and regardless of the validity or facts of the matter, OP has to take into account how real this feels to her sister and the consequences of now showing her support for her now and what that would mean for them in the future. I'm not saying she should back her sister, I genuinely don't know this SOUNDS miserable. I thin mediation is the right call, but asking someone who feels like they were inappropriately touched, to feel obligated to mediate a situation she has no desire to litigate, just doesn't feel good. Nothing about this is fair, to either the bf or the OP who has to choose, but it would be placing undue burden on the sister, to have to justify her reactions to a jury of her peers so to speak, out in the open, when she feels so strongly in her conviction about this. yes I do acknowledge the double standard, Op's bf is getting the short end of the stick here, and it does suck. Assuming he didn't touch her inappropriately which from the facts presented seems the most likely, it would be wild to me to put up with that much just to cop a feel.... not to mention blackout drunk and puking isn't exactly the height of attractiveness (but hey it hasn't stopped scumbags before so), it seems to me like the most likely scenario was in the fumbling to and fro a lot of hands were placed in a lot of places in an effort to get her somewhat safely back to her place, which could easily be misinterpreted. If this is the case, the guy is 100% on the losing end here, but its a tough ask for someone to go against a close family member who feels violated, especially when OP technically doesn't know the facts of the matter. IT would be one thing if she definitively knew, but we're all making inferences, OP included. The ideal would be communication between all parties and some sort of mediation towards a middle ground. But with the topics and emotions involved, that's a big ask. I don't envy the choices Op has to make here, I faced a similar situation (in relationship dynamics) recently with the stakes so much lower, and it still stressed me the fuck out.

Her sister should show that she care about op feelings as well. She knowing that she was black out drunk should at least sit down and talk it out. She only thinking about herself by not sitting down and talking it out. If she still feels that way after the talk then she can cut contact with the boyfriend while understanding why op chose to stay with him. Just as strongly the sister feels something happened you boyfriend feels nothing happened so there have to be a middle ground. Maybe y’all just don’t drink together anymore why ruin a relationship over the words of someone that can’t remember anything else that night.

you aren't thinking about things from the sister's perspective, or you don't' know how incredibly violating someone taking advantage of you can feel, for the victim. I'm genuinely happy you don't, but statistically some woman in your life does. I have too many sisters cousins and female friends, and i've had frank conversations with them where they have elucidated to me in no unclear terms exactly how it felt to them. I cannot in good conscious think of asking any of them to sit down with the person they feel touched them inappropriately to "talk it out". I understand you don't believe the factual accounting of events from her perspective. I'm not asking you to do that. I'm asking you to put yourself in the emotional state she is in, when in her heart she feels that his person violated her when she was vulnerable. Then to have the people closest to you, tell you to just sit down and let the guy tell you why he didn't do what he did. It would feel like a massive betrayal, and an invalidating of her ability to come forward. Yes this is the inherent problem with sexual assaults. We don't want innocent men to bare the burden of accusation, but interrogating a potential victim is exactly the types of behavior that has made reporting such incidents so incredibly hard for people to come forward with. I'm not saying that the bf shouldn't have the ability to speak to his defense, I'm even partial to agree with him. But you can't FORCE the sister to sit down with someone who she believes in her heart of hearts, violated her physical boundaries. As a sibling I would never ask my sister to do that even if I thought she was wrong. This is exactly why I don't envy OP's position. Sister might be more likely to be wrong, but she has a much closer tie to her, and that might mean giving up a good thing to maintain that familial bond. Op's sister isn't asking her to do that, but that's the logical conclusion. How do you have a relationship with someone your sister thinks touched her. How would family dinners work hanging out together, even having a basic conversation with each other the more and more their lives entangle. Until her sister on her own terms comes to the idea that she is willing to hear him out, OP's hands are tied if she wants to continue having a healthy relationship with her sister. Nothing about that is fair. But your bias towards people you're closer to is definitionally not fair.

you’re amazing. i feel like you can explain my feelings better than i can. thanks for validating the shiftiness of the situation. what would you do if you were me? 😁

Im so hesitant to reply, especially the context with you having a house now with bf and being super serious. as I mentioned in another comment I faced a similar situation with very very very much less stakes (the relationship dynamics of someone close to me probably being in the wrong but choosing to back them anyways) and it stressed me out for a month and ultimately I don't think there was a right decision. I think you definitely need to talk with your sister more. I don't think interrogating her is the right path forward. And you're right to not want to gas light her. You know her best but if she needs time, then she needs time to digest it all. But ultimately if she in her mind cannot be convinced this was a misunderstanding, or her recollection was compromised, I really don't know if you are in a position to do anything. I think you also should speak with your boyfriend about this and just be honest. Yeah you believe him and nothing in your history would lead you to think you did do this, but that her sister's feelings regardless of the factual mater of it all are real and need to be addressed and you don't know what that means yet. And regrettably I think he has every right to feel hurt about this. It's just kind of where you are though, and lying to him isn't doing him any service. If he insists on talking to her maybe convey why that might not be the best idea. And then just hope for the best. Maybe gague opinions on the other two people who were there, but I guess the problem is, she is saying that it happened in the backseat and no one else would be privy to it. I really wish I had the "right" answer but sadly I think this all lies in one of two things. One how your sister is able to process this incident and if she's ever open to the idea of it being a misunderstanding, or two, your boyfriend did do it and somehow that comes out to give you the definitive answer.

The feelings of a grown ass woman who embarrasses herself and get's black out drunk do not have to be prioritized just because she happens to be a sister too. In other words you are paying WAYY to much deference to the sister here.

Yeah. this fucking sucks. worst day of my life. i feel guilty towards both these people i love because i am so conflicted. 😔

I think the poster above has great advice but as a warning if you take it your bf is likely to break up with you. Telling him that "you're not sure what's going to happen" is relationship altering at best shattering at worst. Especially in a situation like this where it's improbable that your bf did anything. At best your sister is remembering being carried/held in the car. Just wanted to make sure that you knew that while very well thought out this advice has risk

yeah if I got dumped because of a FALSE ACCUSATION no matter how much the drunk person thought lies were true. shit id blast that all over social media so everyone in our lives knows the kind of person my ex is.

...the kind of person who is conflicted over whether or not to believe a sister over a boyfriend? You act like she knows it's a false accusation and is choosing the sister's side. Honestly if my sister told me a bf touched her I'd probably break up with him. Granted my sister isn't the blackout drunk type but still. Like even if I suspected that she is misinterpreting I'd probably still do it and apologise to him. It would be better for him to find someone else cause no way I'd want my sister to interact with someone she feels violated her. Like even if it didn't happen it would feel real to her. Bfs come and go but sisters are for life.

but you have the truth on your bf side....wtf

I am female and I have sisters and if I was in your place I would yes support my sister but I would not end things before we all had a chance to talk it out all that was present can say what they saw happened. Because at the end she can one piece what really happened together and the sister can have piece of mind that nothing really happened to her and they can move on or she can choose to have no contact with your boyfriend if she still feels some kind of way. It is not right for her to place this much stress on you because she don’t want to understand what happened that day. What happens if you break up with him and your next boyfriend come and y’all drink together and she do the same thing or your next boyfriend actually do take advantage of her how much will you believe her then because truly because you was there you don’t really believe her you just believe she believes this. In my first post I said this and stand by it I would not break up I would keep an eye on him and his interactions with females but break up no. Her not talking is hurting everyone not just herself and she is being selfish. Yes being touch without your consent is traumatizing and sister husband should make her feel safe enough to work through it. Or she might need to seek therapy but her feelings should not control your life.

> What happens if you break up with him and your next boyfriend come and y’all drink together and she do the same thing or your next boyfriend actually do take advantage of her how much will you believe her then because truly because you was there you don’t really believe her you just believe she believes this. thats a very good point. yikes i hadnt thought of that

Well there’s no way I’d go out drinking with her again.

The problem I have with this is the sister should also respect if op decides not to break up with him. At this point everyone is looking at how the sister feels and apparently op should just end things with he boyfriend because she obviously don’t care that much about him or just don’t know him or trust him that much. I am a female and I have been touched (not raped thank God) before drunk at a party. One I had people I trust around me that stepped in and two my husband would have been so pissed at the boyfriend there would have been a fight. Also at any point of her coming to did you her once say stop or don’t touch me or even the words No. op was sitting right there she should know. I’m not stating that the sister may not truly believe she was touched the issue is she was blackout drunk and can’t recall anything else but willing to ruin a relationship without even hearing everyone out. If she not ready to talk then she should not be make you choose at this time. Her feelings even though they may be unjustified because she really don’t know what happened to her may be real to her. What I’m saying is she can’t expect everyone to run there lives off her feelings and accept the fact that her sister is not going to make a decision until all the facts have been made and it is up to the sister for how soon that happens. Because after what I read it feels like something else is happening and again what is your sister husband is doing about what happened I want to know his view on it because I hope he have been he support and will sit with her so she feel safe to sit and talk. That is why I say she might be jealous.

>The problem I have with this is the sister should also respect if op decides not to break up with him.  I think context was given that OP literally said sister just wants OP to be happy she hasn't made an ask of her to break up with him. I just don't see how it's feasible if you're close with your sibling to integrate someone more into your life if she believes in her heart he touched her. Like genuinely believes it. I can't have conversations for all that long without bringing up something about my wife, she's just a core part of how I experiance life. How are they supposed to one day get married (she mentions in another reply they bought a house together and he bought a ring) if she wont even sit down in his presence. Her sister, on her own terms has to eventually come to the conclusion that she may have ben mistaken, or this will just not work out. Imagine they both have kids one day, how would the sister ever be ok leaving her children at her sisters house to have a sleep over or something if she genuinely thinks her brother in law touched her. I mean yeah I think sister and OP need to talk more before a decision is made it's just such a hard position to back down from. And if she isn't ready to sit down with the guy, I think that should be respected that's all I meant with this entire chain of thought. It might even reach unreasonable levels of refusal. But for me I can't ever be in a mindset to force someone to sit down with someone they genuinely believe touched them like that. That said yeah if she's lying I think she's a bad person for ruining OP's shot at happiness. Also I threw in a line about you not knowing, and obviously that was presumptuous of me. Even if you weren't a woman and even if you hadn't experienced it, that comment was probably out of line, and the fact you are and have only pointed it out to me, so I do apologize. Can't exactly parade the women in my life as evidence to me taking women's experiences seriously when I actively ignore a perspective of someone else right in front of me.

But where does this "sister is closer in relationship than my partner/spouse" clause end? Or is it forever siblings over long-term partner or spouse? What if it were OP's son who was in the position of her bf? Sister over son in which case OP probably shouldn't choose to start a new family or have any serious relationships at all since she never wants to prioritize anyone other than her birth family. Son over sister in which case why is her partner less important than her sister or son? Is a partner forever doomed to be in the backseat compared to her "blood" relations? I feel like I would absolutely not choose to be with someone who thinks I am a throwaway to appease others.

This, right here. I would want to date someone who loves and respects their family, but at the same time I wouldn't be with someone if I wanted to build a life with them and they continually chose their family over me. At some point with a life partner, there has to be a shift where they start coming first.

Would you advocate that she prioritize her relationship with her sister if she knew she was lying on purpose or was toxic in other ways? >Imagine they both have kids one day, how would the sister ever be ok leaving her children at her sisters house to have a sleep over or something if she genuinely thinks her brother in law touched her. This is on her sister, not OP.

no idk if it was here or somewhere else but obviously if it came out she was being deceitful she loses any credibility and deference she gets from OP. but other than her coming out herself saying it there isn't any way to prove one way or the other this is the case. Someone willing to be willfully deceitful has no reason to come forward with their lie in this case. If she feels guilty enough to fess up to it, the solution is obvious because someone who's that guilty wouldn't want OP to separate from her bf at that point, so this all becomes a moot point. A don't even know if i strongly advocate that she HAS to prioritize her relationship with her sister, it's just that in her original post she striaght up says if asked to choose, assuming good faith on both parties, she'll choose her sister. I'm sympathetic as i come from a tight knitt family I get the mentality. my sister has explicitly stated she wouldn't let a relationship progress if she can't get along with our family. This isn't dogmatism so much as, family is just so integral to her life, she can't imagine having a partner that she could mesh with if they couldn't participate in family events. I have my own reservations about that but I do understand the perspective.

Let me be clear. I see no evidence to suggest that the sister is lying I'm just using it as a hypothetical about how far the "I'll side with my family no matter what" mentality goes. I think she's just mistaken about what happened because she clearly drank too much. Doesn't seem to be lying. The part you're leaving out of this IMO is the HUGE stain on this guys reputation if she decides to leave him over this. The fallout from his friends (maybe even his family etc...) siding with her sister in this means she's saying it's okay to say that this man sexually assaulted her sister. The other side of the coin is whether or not people believe it's possible that someone who couldn't even remember getting carried up a flight of stairs and having their clothes removed was misremembering what happened here, which doesn't have even close to the same reputational cost. And given what little chance there is that he actually did anything wrong here (it sounds more like he went above and beyond helping her take care of her sister while sloppy drunk) I just find that siding with her sister here is really icky to me. I LOVE my family and am very close with them, but I call them out on things when I think they're wrong about something. I don't subscribe to the notion that just because I'm related to someone, they're always right or should always be defended or sided with. I think I owe it to them to be honest. And reading her posts, I don't think she believes her sisters story here.

>I think she's just mistaken about what happened because she clearly drank too much. Doesn't seem to be lying. I think we're on the same page, it seems the most likely without extra context of motives, it just seems like a horribly timed, horribly misunderstood interaction. >The part you're leaving out of this IMO is the HUGE stain on this guys reputation nah not leaving it out, i mention multitudes of time how unfair this is to him. I understand what the consequences are, and it fucking blows. But she's asking for help, and she's stated her preference between these two people in her life in the here and now. On the assumption of good faith by both parties she explicitly stated she'd choose her sister. If the sister, on her own never changes her mind, I don't see how she can do anything else while sticking to that preference. It's not my place to make her want to devote herself more to her boyfriend in the here and now. >The other side of the coin is whether or not people believe it's possible that someone who couldn't even remember getting carried up a flight of stairs and having their clothes removed was misremembering what happened here, which doesn't have even close to the same reputational cost. I don't think you can make this claim, and not have it be interpreted by the sister as not believing her. She has been asked multiple times if she may have misconstrued what happened. Op said the sister is convinced it was intentional and it happened. Saying she doesn't believe she can possibly remember is directly saying her sister is lying. 100% the sister is making this a severe binary. But in her position if she genuinely believes she was touched inappropriately, it really should be a binary. >I just find that siding with her sister here is really icky to me. oh absolutely I told OP this but there is no good answer here. Apart from the boyfriend fessing up that he did indeed do it, or the sister fessing up that she's lying, there is no way now to prove what happened definitively. And the emotional cost is going to be thrown far to either party, but in both instances OP takes a huge loss. It genuinely sucks. The only way out of this situation with the best of all parties, is if the sister, genuinely on her own (because any convincing could be construed as gaslighting or otherwise denying/disbelieving her claims leading to a whole new can of worms) decides it may have been a mistake, then they can all move forward. BUT even in this instance, bf has to now reconcile the OP wasn't ready to stand by him immediately. And maybe he's ok with that. But it's entirely reasonable to think he has a right to be hurt and reevaluate the timeline in which he's getting ready to entangle his life with OP. so again, OP loses out here. >I LOVE my family but I call them out on things when I think they're wrong about something. I don't subscribe to the notion that just because I'm related to someone, they're always right. ABSOLUTELY. however, that's only when I know the facts of the matter, and there are right and wrong ways to do so. My sister has made a serious financial blunder before and it crushed her dreams. What she did was stupid, and as the more fiscally responsible one, there was a time and place for me to let her know that. But that didn't mean I told her when she was at her emotionally most vulnerable point. And that was a clear cut case of right or wrong. I want to be abundantly clear, im only willing to say i think its most likely a misunderstanding because I'm in no position to pass judgment. Even if i think it's most likely, that doesn't mean i'm willing to say someone should act on that guess. There is GENUINELY a possibly the OP's bf is the kind of guy who genuinely can't let an opportunity pass him up and felt her up. We literally do not know. And the possibly of giving that behavior a pass, and OP's sister having to live with that after being told by everyone around her that she imagined it all, and seeing him at family functions and family dinners, TERRIFIES me. I would be petrified to accidentally make that eventuality real. There is literally no way for anyone but the bf to truely know what happened that night. The sad truth of it is, if the guy has to leave this family behind and find someone new, he has a genuine shot at it, if he didn't do it and gets accused of it, EVERYONE else in their shared friend circle and probably take an agnostic position on it. The sister at this time isn't even making the ask of her sister to cut ties with him. But to further entangle OP and the bf's lives is IMPLICTLY saying she doesn't believe he's capable of that behavior which directly contradicts what her sister believes. It doesn't work because of these competing ideas. It's entirely possible no one in the friend group has to believe it and can be split down the middle on it. OP doesn't get that opportunity because of the value statement living with this guy in their shared home, or one day marrying him will make. EDIT: I also do mention, right now i think the responsible actions are to let things simmer down and keep lines of communication open between all parties. I have said as much to OP. i don't think making a decision today is right for anyone involved. Hopefully the sister can mellow out and decide if mediation is something she can stomach. But again if she truely believes he violated her in that way, I would never say she's obliged to do so.

> you don't' know how incredibly violating someone taking advantage of you can feel, for the victim. nor does op's sister. and yet here we are

This is a great explainer, but FYI, it’s “err on the side”

I am trying to see it logically as well, which is why I have come to that same conclusion… but I can’t ignore the fact that I know my sister wouldn’t just make it up either..

It's not about making something up intentionally -- it's about the fact she was so drunk she didn't even remember being naked, and could have imagined this situation.

> but I can’t ignore the fact that I know my sister wouldn’t just make it up either.. It is possible for people to be wrong with conviction, you were literally there.

I don't think she's making it up, but if was blackout drunk it is entirely possible she completely imagined it or is badly piecing things together. I don't know if you've ever been blackout drunk but it's extremely hard to piece bits together from a night out. If he was sitting next to you, her feet on him, one hand holding yours then I can't imagine any possible way he'd be able to grope her without it being completely obvious.

I feel like it could be possible that your sister is conflating different moments in the night. She was vaguely conscious and aware of you and your BF in the backseat. Was it possible her husband was helping her undress and get into bed and she may be mistaking her husbands touch for your boyfriends?

She isn't making it up, her brain made it up for her. Her brain was melting from alcohol, she was only half conscious, she doesn't remember major aspects like her being wasted and the fact that she was impossible to keep hold of and that you were there. All she remembers is sensory data, and her mind made sense of it by arranging the data into a shape that made sense. She thinks it happened that way, even though it didn't.

honestly id be a bit concerned someone at the place they were did something to her and her drunken brain cant remember who

your sister wouldnt, but would a black out drunk?

You can believe it happened while not believing it happened like she's saying at the same time.

Im a criminal defense attorney. I can't tell you how often I have had drunk clients tell me that police officers SAed them, while there are multiple bodycams that show nothing of the sort. It's not uncommon for a drunk person to think something was SA when it was more just them being carried or moved around. This is an unfortunate reality for individuals who are SAed while drunk because they are often not believed. But frankly I would take what your sister thinks happened with a grain of salt. Not saying it didn't happen, just saying it's possible it didn't.

True or false; advise bf to never be alone with sis.

Even if every single thing about this is genuine. Sister 100% believes what she remembers. I 100% don't believe your bf did anything wrong. And there is no chance he should ever be alone with her. For his own safety, and for your relationship. Make sure he covers his ass.

heck i would refuse to be alone with her ever again

How about your sister, is she known for making things up? You said you don't expect that kind of thing out of your boyfriend, but do you expect it out of her?

I don’t expect that from her either.

I would maybe press for more detail about what she remembers and explain your interpretation of the scenario. If she was being a complete drunk mess in the backseat sprawled out over all of you, I could see how there might be incidental touching that her drunk brain was misreading

What does your sister want you to do in response to this? Is she asking you to break up with him / confront him in solidarity? Or does she understand your perspective/position and just need some space from him for now? Either way, I wouldn't force her to talk it out or have any sort of contact with him.

i haven’t asked her that specifically , she said she “wants me to be happy” when she told me all this earlier today.

Does she complained about your boyfriend before? For me it looks like a excuse that she found for you to break up with him. And why she drank this much? Is she not on a good place? Had problems on her marriage recently? This looks almost as a projection. Maybe her problem is with her husband and she doesn't want to face a possible cheating from hee husband side and is projecting into your relationship.

That's called manipulation.

Blacked out drunk and 100% sure something happened? No. Her brain is "trying" to remember what happened but can't, so she is filling in the blanks herself subconsciously. And it can feel like a real memory.

Her so drunk and throwing up in a bucket with you and your boyfriend in the backseat. Her memory or added memories from her drinking could have made her think anything. Don't let her not so solid proof memory destroy a great relationship between you and your boyfriend. She was probably embarrassed and disoriented that she didn't know what was going on. You even said things that happened that she don't remember. Don't count on a drunken memory as a 100% fact of something happening. I don't think your bf would have done anything with you there with him.

I wouldn't trust a drunk person who was in and out of consciousness plus laying over the person she's accusing..

Ya, bf will never help another drunk girl again. That you can be sure of.

OP, I have read all your replies and I think you *can* do something without "siding" with anyone right now or lying to get information. That's what you want - information. And the one piece of information you can get is to find out *how* your boyfriend supposedly touched your sister. So go back to your sister and sit down with her. Tell her the truth - that of course your boyfriend denied that it happened and that you want to get to the bottom of this. So sit down with your sister on the couch or her bed or whatever, put your feet on her lap (just like she has been during that drive) and ask her to put her hand in the way your boyfriend has touched her. See where she puts it - your butt? Your stomach? Your boobs? Your crotch? Thank your sister for showing you and then think. Would it have been possible that your boyfriend touched your sister that way, despite him holding your hand and with you not seeing it? Were they wearing clothes which would have concealed that sort of movement? Or is it blatantly obvious that it really was impossible; that he would have had to lean forward so much that you would have seen, that it would have taken the hand you had been holding, something like that? I'm not saying that it will definitely give you an answer, but it will help you out to get a clearer picture. And if your sister goes "Well, uh, I actually don't remember how he touched me, but he totally did!" then yeah, that, too, is an answer - and a very big reason to believe your boyfriend.

He was holding your hand, her feet on his lap? So unless he's Reed Richards from the Fantastic 4, how the hell is he using his other hand to stretch over his body to rub her ass THEN, creep through to rub her crotch?

I think it's great that everyone has already given you good advice from an emotional perspective, but can we stop and be logical for 2 seconds here? Even IF you had read your boyfriend completely wrong this whole time, and he's this awful guy who likes grouping women, you are telling me he is going to do it: -Over her jeans -in a confined space smelling of puke - sitting in a car in eyeline of 3 other people she knows well and would protect her -while holding your hand I'm sorry, but if you believe he did this, you not only have to believe he's a monster,but that he's very, very stupid. To risk everything from his relationship with you, to physical and legal intervention, should someone see all for a few seconds of jean-covered crotch, just doesn't make sense unless he's a gibbering idiot. So is he?

I wonder if possibly it was the belt fastener that she felt around her lower body parts? And in her drunken State probably thought it was a hand or a knuckle or a balled up hand

it just sucks because i’ll never actually know.

Be serious. If you use even the slightest amount of critical thinking you can arrive at the conclusion that what your sister is alleging is essentially impossible given the circumstances.

But why now? Why would you bf risk doing that while you’re to his side and her husband is in the front seat? Any reason to think he’s a psycho or sociopath? If not…. Believe him. He’s offered to chat with both the sil and her husband. She stayed at your place? Why didn’t the husband take her home? If he’s such a psycho, your partner could have fondled her while she was out cold in the middle of the night while you slept- right? I don’t buy her story. However, as I said earlier, she may be recalling something from her past.

No one will. Because she was blackout drunk. You should research how your brain fills in memories subconsciously.

So she was stupid drunk, throwing up in a bucket in the back seat of a car, but she knows without a doubt somehow that your boyfriend was fondling her thigh. And she doesn't remember anything else about the night. I have a default position of believing women, but I just don't know how she could be certain of this in that circumstance. I'd have to guess she felt he made passes at her on some other occasion before this and now saw his opportunity. I really don't know what you should do. If she's convinced this happened and you don't do anything, it's definitely going to severely damage your relationship with her.

well put. i too default to believing women, its just when everyone else around including those next to her are basically "nah" then its a bit sus

I'm just going to be very honest, if your bf has no history of doing this, it's very, very likely that she misinterpreted something here. Even a creep isn't stupid enough to try to fondle a drunk, vomiting woman while his gf is right there, and while her SO is in the car with them. A good man with no history of doing this? Nah, it didn't happen. Her memory is hazy, and she may have misinterpreted him helping as him trying to touch her. I don't know if anyone has tried to touch someone's private areas over jeans, but you just feel jeans. No reason to do that anyway. I believe that your sister BELIEVES something happened, but I also believe that your bf didn't do anything wrong. Neither are lying, but one of them is wrong.

Jesus, well to answer the "what should I do", make a choice already. Both of them are actively losing trust in you because you don't fully believe either of them so if you want to destroy both relationships, then I'd say that's the perfect way right now. I don't think your sister is lying, I think she's just wrong and saying it confidently.

What seems sus to me is that sister is so confident in her feelings but acts nonchalant about OPs choice to believe her or not. That seems weird. >she said she is 100% sure she was violated and that i can believe her or not. Reeks of emotional manipulation.

If your sister doesn’t remember being naked in a bathroom stall then I don’t think you can trust her memories of anything happening that night. You should just tell her that she was blitzed out of her mind & you were in the back seat w/her & your boyfriend the entire time. You would have seen if he was feeling her up. You feel confident it didn’t happen. Now if there are any future incidents where she feels your bf is inappropriate w/her, she should let you know immediately. Then leave it at that. In the future, she shouldn’t allow herself to get black-out drunk where she’s passed out on top of ppl if she wants to avoid the possibility of anyone touching her. She needs to take care of herself.

How does your bf seem? What has been his response? Anger? Distress? Cool but adamant if his innocence?

All of the above. at first he seemed confused. then he was angry at me, that i accused him without hearing his side. then he has been stressed about it while also trying to comfort me that he did nothing and he will talk with them (because im an absolute wreck).

I guess that I’d be concerned if his response felt more crafted? Like baby I would never! What can I do? Why don’t you believe me? I think most people would get irate and fearful if they were accused of something like that, especially after taking care of that person.

You can't really generalize a reaction, especially since we don't know how the accusation was conveyed to him. OP said that part of his reaction was him being angry at OP for accusing him. Could it be that she really did accuse him when she asked him about it? Also, things like what can I do or why don't you believe me are also natural responses given the situation (they were both there holding hands). I see nothing wrong with those questions.

Reactions can be all over the place. Your reaction to something would not be my reaction to something. my initial reaction would just be to laugh if i was accused of this and point out how drunk sister was and that anything she remembers is flawed and incorrect. If GF pressed more I would be more disappointed than anything and likely make me question relationship. When someone believes a blackout drunk person in the situation described by Op I would have to question their intelligence. I wouldn’t get angry over this or irate over this.

he has to comfort YOU about a false allegation you parroted about HIM?!

Yea this is crazyyyy... If I was the BF I would be out of here no matter what. My own girlfriend who was conscious and holding my hand won't even defend me against SA allegations. Even moreso she is the one needing comforting and attention... legitimately insane behaviour.

If he did, you're with a predator. If he didn't, she is willing to ruin an innocent person's life with a false accusation. If she can't even imagine the possibility that her memory could be compromised then she probably doesn't have great judgement or self-awareness. Does she have a history of substance abuse? Does she tend to lash out when she feels judged or ashamed? Does she have integrity or does she have a history of being manipulative? If you don't end things with your partner then he should stay away from her before she gets him arrested. This is not a trivial accusation and she might keep bringing it up for years. She might try to ruin his life. She would probably succeed. This is dangerous territory.

Going forward, never drink with your sister and your romantic interest together.

idk call your sister a crazy drunk and move tf on seems pretty open and shut poor bf there to help you and your family out and he catches some outlandish accusations then his gf goes to reddit to post "what should i do" as if the only answer isnt to defend him

Why your sister husband not saying anything. Is there jealousy there. Maybe your boyfriend treat you better than her husband and she jealous of your relationship. In a way trying to ruin it. (Had a best friend of 20+ years to do that). Also I have been blacked out drunk before and let me tell you this I was only able to remember bits and pieces. Everything else had to be told to me. Things I thought happened never did there was even pics and video of that night. If your man give you no reason to doubt him and no one else saw it and the only word you have is from a person that is blackout drunk (even though she is your sister) I myself would not end things with my man. Will I be watching just in case yes but leaving a great guy for the word of your past out sister. Not going to happen. She don’t even want to confront him that seem odd. It was not rape, just touching over clothes while he was sitting next to you holding your hand. Why should you prioritize her feelings when she don’t care about yours. If she did she would at-least talk to him and try to get it straightened out instead she don’t want to talk just want you to break up with him. If I was him I would leave you just for even considering breaking up with me for this. This is a serious things to be accused of and it should not be played with and his reputation can be ruin for this. He is your boyfriend not hers and truly she don’t have to be around him you do. She have shown you to be selfish and you need to tell her she have 3 options: 1. Sit down and talk it out and get to what really happened. 2. She can have no contact with YOUR boyfriend. 3. She can walk out of your life. Her choice because what you don’t want is a year down the line and find out she lied because she wants y’all to break up. You can be passing up your husband because she doesn’t like hers. Because even if we was driving my husband suv he would have been the one taking care of me not someone else boyfriend in the backseat. (Yes I have been in this situation before and this is why I don’t drink now).

How long have you been together with your bf? I'd very highly doubt your sisters claims. It just doesn't add up. I'd say you should talk to her and politely confront her with the mental and physical state she was in during the drive back home. Also: given the touchy (no pun intended) subject your sis seems to carelessly accuse your bf of potentially veeeeerry serious actions. Has she, once sober again, considered the implications of such accusations and would she still make these considering the state she was in? What a shit show. Even more so since family is involved. Good luck.

I did ask her several times if she drunkenly misunderstood, she said she is 100% sure she was violated and that i can believe her or not.

You should be concerned that she's 100% positive but can't remember most of the night

> he said she is 100% sure she was violated and that i can believe her or not. This is the kind of thing manipulators say honestly. She's fucking with your life and seem rather casual about it, if she doesn't care how you feel...

And how long are you together with your boyfriend?

a year and a half. we just bought a house together and i know he bought my ring already too. his intentions with me are serious.

Alright. Assuming your view on your bf are right and considering the phase you're in (buying a house, getting engaged (congrats by the way)) and considering the state of your sis and considering there were two other friends (and assuming they did not witness what she claims): would it be fair to your boyfriend to (perhaps silently) pick your sis's side -not dismissing her claims-? How would you go from there? Sis doesn't want to talk to bf and that puts a lot of tension on the fam. Potentially destroying your relationship with bf. You don't get to choose family but you did choose your bf and I assume with valid reasons. It wouldn't make sense to pick your sis's side just because she's family.

I don’t see how it would be plausible for him to SA her while she’s vomiting in a car (or that he’d even want to??) with you right next to him holding his hand and her husband in the front seat. That just doesn’t make any sense and she was extremely drunk so her interpretation of the nights events are most likely not accurate. I don’t know why you’d even think about taking her side and your lack of faith and trust in your boyfriend is abysmal. Unless he’s a completely different person than you know him as, this is such an outlandish accusation given the circumstances. If I were your boyfriend I’d be pissed too. You said it yourself: you accused him right away without getting his side of the story or even thinking about the fact that this story isn’t realistic at all. I’d break up with my partner over that.

I could understand it though I think it would speak volumes about his character. Basically because he could, that it could very likely never be proved against him even socially. He would be impulsive yet calculating, risk taking, lacking in empathy, anti-social, etc - imo would take a pretty malign and frightening sort of personality

Yeah and I think OP would be able to tell if he was that type of person after being together for awhile, which she’s even said he isn’t

Look, whether he is the world's sneakiest groper or not, she feels violated. Make apologies for any accidental discomfort, assure her there was no ill intent, ask if she needs anything from you, and gently explain that y'all were both pretty preoccupied with keeping her from barfing everywhere. From what you are describing, he may have just reached out at one point to keep her from rolling over and happened to land in between her legs. I've been genuinely accidently groped a few times before. Once a drunk friend falling down and catching the front of my tank top, and once similarly to what your sister is describing when someone was trying to edge sideways behind me in a crowd and got pushed into me. He would've been using my vagina as a handhold if I'd been wearing a skirt. Both times I felt awful, but didn't blame the people who had touched me. I wasn't molested, I just happened to have sensitive body parts come in contact with other people. There's no need to lay blame in every situation. Accidents happen. You can respect whatever boundaries she wants to set but also not tolerate if she starts trying to label your bf as a creep. She's probably not ready to hear it yet, but she should stop getting so fucking messy. It puts her and everyone around her in a precarious position. Many women do get assaulted in that state with no recourse when their babysitters have to look away for a moment. It's very possible her memory of being groped is conflate with something else. Mentally healthy 30 year old women don't barf in bars. Sure, maybe in your early 20s when you don't understand binge drinking yet, but this sounds like alcoholism. I wouldn't be going out with her and standing by while she does that to herself. I've seen too many good people exacerbate every mental strain with alcohol until they become a total disaster.

I have (not that I’m proud of it) been a hot mess multiple times in my life (luckily not anymore). On one occasion I was CONVINCED I remembered going to the bathroom in a closet at my friends apartment. To the point I made an excuse the next day to look in there. And then waited anxiously for days for them to find out what I had done. Guess what? I didn’t. It didn’t happen. I waited it out and my friend DEFINITELY would have said something about it if I had. It was vivid, it felt so real, and it never happened

Im gunna play devils advocate here, if you believe your bf why dont you just lie to your sister "Me and bf were holding hands, it was actually me that grabbed you between the legs to stop you from falling off our lap while u were puking"

What does your sisters husband think? Imo Occam's razor says Sister was embarrassed about being so drunk and wants to deflect onto your BF so she's not the most embarrassing thing that happened that night. The fact that he's holding your hand means that he only had 1 hand to hold her, likely he put that hand on her thigh(as if your trying to prevent a drunk person from not sliding off the car seat you HAVE to grab either their thigh/hips & not their calves or they'll just bend at the joint and slide into the footwell) Your sister wearing skinny jeans could probably feel the thigh touch and took it to be inappropriate touching. Honestly in this situation I would struggle not to lose my cool as the BF, especially seeing as your sister refuses to talk face to face (a sign that her accusation will not hold up to scrutiny) I would say to her "look sis I love you and I want to trust you, but if you won't even talk to my BF face to face with me in the room then why would I believe you? This is a very serious accusation and I am not going to break up with someone just because you say so." Good luck OP - Start trying to think about your sisters past behavior, has she typically acted more childish than you in past situations? Is she narcissistic in nature? If she usually gets 'her way' then this sounds like her trying to take control of an embarrassing situation. The fact she can remember this but not the being butt naked part later (which is arguably even more embarrassing than throwing up in the back of the car) is VERY telling imo.

Occam’s razor probably says she just doesn’t know what she felt and is attributing it to OPs bf

I’m guessing that since the husband left his wife for OP to undress and get her sister to bed, he’s none too happy. She probably has convinced herself she was violated, but i’m a little squicked out at how conveniently it redirects all attention from her getting that drunk and her husband leaving someone else to deal with it.

Yeah 100% its a very convenient time for this to happen. I feel like touching up your girlfriends sister whilst both are in the car & sisters husband is a death wish. Even creepy men aren't that stupid

Ya, it would be one hell of an easy way to destroy your entire life.

Maybe your sister should stop getting sloppy, falling down, butt naked drunk…? Just a thought.

I pray this man leaves you omg 💀💀 you would choose your sister even though he has never given you a reason to not trust him ??? Man he deserves way better.

IMO you need to make an assessment of how likely it is that it occurred and go from there. Sounds like you are doing that already to some extent. This would consider the parties’ respective statements (this doesn’t need to be done with bf and sis in the same room, and that wouldn’t be appropriate if sis is not comfortable), how plausible each is given the logistics, an assessment of how credible each witness’s account is aside from plausibility (eg character, degree of intoxication, accuracy of statement as to verifiable matters and per independent accounts such as your own). Basically conduct an informal investigation. IMO then you would be in a position to make your decision and justify it. Some people will defend those they love (more) to the death even if they are wrong, like parents who try to help their kids escape justice after committing murder. Some will always act on the merits, like turning said kid in themselves. Many are in between these extremes, where they balance the merits versus the love. Based on what you have related I think it is more likely than not, by a fair margin, that your sister is simply mistaken. If it were me, unless I do not love the bf at all, I would accept the sisters feelings but also tell her honestly that you are not going to break up with your bf and explain why with regards to your assessment. I lean more towards merits: if my partner is wrong in a fight with a stranger I’m going to defend her publicly but without completely vindicating her behaviour, merely insisting the stranger back off. I’m not going to cut off my parents or even a close friend if they have a fight with my partner where she makes an accusation against them that is likely to be wrong. Tbh I think that is ridiculous and I think if your sister is a rational and ethical person she will likely come to understand and accept that choice.

Under the circumstances I'd give your boyfriend the benefit of the doubt. Your sister was extremely intoxicated and can barely remember anything. And your own intuition is telling you that he would never do that. The fact that your sister won't talk to him or hear him out suggests that she may have an ulterior motive ; possibly trying to stir up some mud.

I don't think the logistics make sense. If her feet were in his lap, he was holding your hand, he would have to reach over with the other to grope her. You should have seen him move from your peripheral, and something tells me you weren't sticking your face into the window while your sister was violently sick. I think she was very out of it and mistook something else for groping. Though I wonder how she was black out drunk but remembers this??? If you remember, you weren't blacked out, right?

So while holding your hand, in front of you and her man, he was groping her with the other? and no one in the entire time noticed his other hand moving? And she was blackout drunk? im not saying its impossible im just saying the math aint mathing

I wonder if this is just a way to divert attention from the events of the evening and your sister just being extremely embarrased and wanting to distance herself from the situation of her getting blackout drunk and shifting focus to something else that's more scandalous. I don't know your sister, but what she is saying doesn't add up. Also, the brain has a funny way of filling in blanks in your memory and that's probably why she believes this happened - she willed it into her memory and will now not let go because she "remembers". I don't have a link but I watched an interesting video about people being asked questions about events they weren't alive for or they didn't attend and they make up the most wonderful lies without even knowing - the brain tries to fill in the gaps. They will themselves into being there.

Because a woman throwing up is such a turn on.

Your sister has a bigger problem than what may or may not have happened with your bf. Blackout drunk! Really?? You seem to want to placate her but you won’t be able to. Her drunken reality is what it is. Tell her she’s mistaken and deal with the consequences. Or tell her that you believe her and deal with the consequences. You can not ride the middle rail on this one.

This is such a difficult and delicate situation. I have sisters who I am extremely close with. I would hear your sister out again and be honest. You honestly, deep down don't believe your bf would do something like that. That you were there, and if you can seen anything suspicious whatsoever that you would have ended things with him right there and you would do whatever you could to support her. But based on what you saw, and what she remembers it's hard to see how it could have happened. I would gently ask her if there is any possible way that it could have been something else? Was she wearing a body suit at the time? (They can ride up and get twisted in the crotch area especially if they have clasps there) Bodysuits when they ride up the front can feel like someone actually touching. Another possibility is if she was wearing real denim jeans (not leggings, not jeans with any elastic woven fibres) that the crotch on those types of jeans can be quiet stiff/bulky. I hate wearing them because sometimes the denim can pinch my labia. If she is adamant that he touched her, come up with what you want to do with that information. It might come across as victim blaming in her eyes "you were drunk and don't remember". She might have said something to her husband while drunk/hungover that she thought she was touched and now is sticking to it, even if she is not quiet sure. It can be super embarassing to admit that you might be wrong. I would tell her that if there is a possibility that she is mistaken please tell you now as your relationship with your bf is very serious and you want to have all the information. With one of my sisters, she has doubled down on things where she was mistaken and won't admit it until years later after all the damage is done. Such as exaggerating what was said to her, or how people treated her (but I think that's her reality, she hears and feels what she thinks even with evidence to prove otherwise) My other sister would probably downplay something like this to give the perpetrator the benefit of the doubt, but tell me 'just in case' kind of like record keeping.

I don't know if I belive your sister tbh. She can't remember any bigger details like being naked and incredibly drunk.. but she can remember in detail that your bf touched her. I'm not too sure about this one. Also doesn't fit your bfs pattern of behavior.

Your sister regrets getting that drunk and consciously or not, made up a scenario to explain her feelings of shame and regret around the situation.

It's possible to have partial memories when drinking- she might have forgotten some parts of the night and remember some of the night. Inebriated people are more likely to be targeted for SA because being intoxicated makes their stories easier to doubt. Not saying it happened or didn't, but things to consider before you totally reject your sister's claim.

Do you have any reason to believe your sister would lie? Like does she not like him or something?

i’m sure she doesn’t like him now. before this, i’m sure she liked him. he’s always been so nice to my family.

I'm intrigued by your bf and her husband's relationship. They are friends from before they met you girls?

It sounds like you and your sister need to do another debrief. As someone who has gotten “blackout” but closer to brownout (yes yes, adults shouldn’t get to that point, but spare me the lecture), with parts of memory here and there, time makes it easier to piece things together as memories start to come back. I would start the convo by saying that you love her and want to take her seriously on this, but that your experience of the situation is leaving you with some questions about how everything went down and you want to know the details before you confront bf. This gives you the opportunity to fill her in on what happened during her memory gaps including who was where doing what and why, and have her talk about what she remembers chronologically. When having this convo, err on the side of just wanting to get a full picture without value judgements. Your job is to just figure out where everyone is coming from before taking sides or refusing to do so. It could be that your sister misremembers being a fumbled grab while being brought up the stairs or even being fondled by someone else and conflating the two memories, or in the worst case, your boyfriend had a quick intrusive moment and grabbed her for too long at another point in time and she misremembers it as being in the car. It's hard to tell without all perspectives. This is a tough situation but I hope you can be able to figure out what happened and get some closure without ruining both relationships.

No one will ever know but it awesome that he wants to talk with your sister. I think that he showing that your sister has a misunderstanding. For future, let him sit up front. Sorry this is happening. I know it’s tough to navigate.

Your situation is very sucky right now. May I ask how long you’ve been with your boyfriend/ how well you know him? Not casting doubt, just covering all bases here.

been with him 1.5 years and lived together for 1! i know him well. he knows my family well.

Is your sister jealous and/or purposely trying to break you up? I don’t understand why women like to make their friends miserable and ruin their relationships. Her legs were on him. So is he supposed to lift his hands off her legs for the entire drive? Something is not right with your sister’s story. And she was drunk. So you have to keep that in mind. Your BF sounds innocent and does not seem like a creep.

Years ago when I was younger and Dumber I had an eventful night out filled with lots of beverages. Not quite as drunk as your sister but vomiting was involved once I got home. The next morning when I woke up, I was so confused as to where my buddy was. He had come back to my place to crash and we talked for awhile in my living room after our night out. I was living with my brother at the time and asked if he'd seen my buddy leave and he was like, "No one was here. You came home, threw up a couple times, chugged water, then passed out." I was in disbelief. I called my buddy and he's still laying in his bed at his house and confirms the cab dropped him off and took me onto my place. He was never at my place but I remember this conversation in my living room so clearly. Maybe even more clearly than the rest of the night. I only tell that story because when you get that drunk you are existing between varying states of consciousness. You're half dreaming in a sense. Your brain is trying to fill in blanks. What your sister thinks happened may feel very real to her even though it's highly unlikely that it actually happened. I mean, what she's saying is a very brazen act even for someone that would be apt to do that type of thing. If you trust your boyfriend and your own memory of that night; I think you need to acknowledge that your sister feels she has experienced a traumatic event but encourage her to assess her own behavior that night and seek out some therapy if needed.

I completely understand the anguish you must be feeling, especially as your sister is so adamant that it did happen, and up until now you have had no reason to not trust your boyfriend. Memory is a complicated process, but I don't agree that just because she didn't remember certain parts of the night, that she wouldn't have remembered that specific incident - if it did happen. Of course, none of us could possibly know. What I do know, is that when we lose our memory in old age, the last things we forget are those closest to us - our partners, children etc. This is because, for whatever reason, we hold on to information that has a greater emotional meaning to us. So it is possible, given the surge of emotion that would like be involved if a person violated someone in such a way, that your sister, no matter her state of inebriation, would remember that but not other events that have stuck clearly with you. This is not to say that your boyfriend did definitely do this, but it has to be a possibility. Particularly as your sister is so specific with what he did. Either way, you're not likely to ever get to the bottom of this. Because of that, and as you are clearly decided on where your loyalities lie, I would lean to breaking up with your boyfriend. If for nothing else, I don't believe a loving relationship should be based on a bond that doesn't transcend one's love for a sibling.

OP - I feel for you. The fact that your bf is willing to talk it through plus your story overall, lends me to think he did not do this and that being in the state she was, I’m less likely to believe your sister. Whether she reported an old memory is a possibility. However, the fact she was rip-roaring wasted is also a concern. Is she an alcoholic, OP?

I'd highly question the merit of her claim...I mean I'm pretty damn aware of my surroundings, if I was holding my partners hand I feel like if sober enough, I'd be able to see and be aware of where the other hand is/what he was doing.

The only reason why your sister refuses to even talk to your bf about it is because she's not sure whether it really happened or not. Or perhaps she made the whole thing up. Or the two had some hidden shit. Nothing's adding up here. Whatever it is, there's definitely something behind the curtain.

There was another post where the OP's sister accused OP's husband of raping her after she was passed out drunk. She almost ruined their marriage bc she couldn't get her facts together and remained too stubborn.

Your sister sounds like a trainwreck.. Maybe it was god trying to nudge your sister into making better life decisions than getting black out drunk

Show us your sister and bf social media post and I guarantee we could tell you whose lying. Honestly you got a really tough decision on your hands Goodluck🙏

Sometimes even when you are very drunk or high you can have great clarity, Obviously other times you can be completely mistaken. I would say it probably did happen and she didn't imagine it. It's one of those things that can snap you out of your drunken stupor, albeit temporarily. That said, because she was black out drunk, she doesn't really have any credibility so there is nothing that you can do. Your bf gets the benefit of the doubt by default because of her intoxication.

Does the car have one of those cams recording the inside? Maybe can see if she was wearing seat belt and like others suggested might have mistook that as the hand ? But in any case have a talk with ur sis and her husband to see if they both agree on the same. Ask your bf when he was holding ur sister where was his hand, not accusatory just so you know where the hand was. As it will be important info in case someone roti prata later. If his hand was near her ankle or feet, try to recall if seat belt was near her cooch or if there was anything else in the car seat.

it doesn’t. :(

I think you should ask your boyfriend not in an accusatory tone, just getting his side on where his other hand was supporting your sister - be it holding her ankle or feet or if he wasn't holding her at all for support, did u not see his other hand at all during the car trip? Also when u guys were holding hands was that behind ur sisters back or on her? That cld also maybe distort her memory of what happened if ur hands were near her back. Clarify this first so you know what actually happened. Next have a talk with your sister and her husband on your own to hear both of their thoughts on the situation and to talk it out. See if her husband also thinks the same. Your sister is more likely open to talking with you then ur bf if she thinks she was violated by him. Try to have an open talk so you can explain that u were in the backseat with her and that she might have mistook something rubbing on her. If your sister genuinely mistook the events due to her drunkenness she just needs reassurance and time to process that she misremembered the events in her drunken stupor. I'm sure you have a good sister and she will come to understand it was a wrong memory she had while being drunk and apologise for the mistake to ur bf.

Most drunk person claim they can fly! What I meant by this is that your sister is "too drunk" and the fact that she blackedout means she's way above the earth that time so her brain produces placebo effect. She could have claimed more serious issues but only touched is what she remembers. For all we know someone may have done it and just randomly blames on your BF. Anything can happen when we are drunk. It may be true or not. Bottomline, best to talk it out. It will take sometime but hopefully your sister will be more open and acceptant to the fact she is drunk that time. If you want to save your relationships with both - don't give up on them. Hopefully your BF is truly a good boy!

It's possible both things are true.   Your sister's drunk and throwing up in the back of a moving car.  I find it difficult your boyfriend didn't need to touch her during all this.  She, on the other hand, is in a very, very vulnerable state.  Lying on her side in the back of a moving car to puke in a bucket....yeah.  That's a vulnerable state to be in-a lot of your sense of control is in other people's hands.  I could see how she'd feel being taken advantage of.   I dont think I'm helping here.  Reading that makes it sound like she's imagining things.  That's not what I mean.  But I don't know how to describe what happened could have lacked any nefariousness even though some was detected.   Sorry!!  I hope the resolves to it's best conclusion.  Fingers crossed your bf isn't a monster.   

Just don't drink anymore for awhile between all of you, don't drink so much you are inebriated. How is that fun ? He probably didn't touch her. She just has an underlying hate for him and doesn't want to see you with him so it's her way of trying to get you to break up with him. It would take more than a belligerent night out to know if he was the culprit. It may not ever happen again and you get to keep an awesome boyfriend. Your sister will always be your sister. I doubt she would recollect what actually happened. I don't buy it.

Hopefully you’ve got more details but it sounds off on your sister’s side. Her head was on your lap, her husband I assume was where the middle of her body is and your bf had her feet/lower leg area. It’d be a pretty bold move to be touching someone with her husband right beside you and your gf right in clear view. Especially when her husband would be close to her private area. Sometimes when I used to get super drunk I would have weird sexual like sensations down there without anything touching me. If that was happening to her in that drunk state, she may of confused it for someone touching her.

her husband was in the front, driving actually

Re-reading that I understand now. I thought the friend was driving at first. Was her husband just the most sober one to drive. Idk if you’ve had any more discussions with them that could resolve it but I’m sorry you’re in this spot. If you stay with your bf without feeling 100% sure it didn’t happen, I think that’s going to have a huge effect on you and the relationship. I guess my only real advice would be if you’re going to stay with him, you need to believe him.

Is it possible your sister has created this scenario to try and get the attention away from the fact that she was so blindly drunk and put the focus on your bf? Could it be pure embarrassment on her part from her actions that night? I think a family meeting is required if there's to be any resolution here. That's a serious accusation and if she is claiming it's the truth it's sexual assault and could lead down the path of charges. Does she realise the ramifications? If it is actually what happened then full speed ahead, you'd think her husband would be charging down your door....

Doesn't she trust you to take care of her?. If you never saw the act and you had his hand holding yours then I think she is wrong. Evidence vs word of an unconscious.

Did you ever even consider that she might be telling the truth ? Wtf is wrong with people in this sup protecting some creepy mf

[удалено]

well, update: due to several discrepancies between her memory of details and what i know actually happened, the fact i was watching her closely and the uncharacteristic nature of my boyfriend - i decided not to break up with my boyfriend. i just talked with my sister and explained there’s no 100% way for me to know so i can only go based off what i experienced, know and her and his stories. she called me a bich and told me the only person she cares about believing her is her husband. she said im gaslighting her by not believing it happened or presenting evidence against it. but all she could say is that she knows it happened, that she couldn’t see anything but she could hear and feel stuff before passing out. she was so rude even though i did my best to validate her experience and explain how hard of a decision it was for me. she talked about how this is why people don’t come forward about these things, because people don’t believe them. i know that’s true… but how can i, when i was right there and her only explanation was that she just knows. i’m so upset :( idk what to do from here. she hung up on me.

>when i was right there and her only explanation was that she just knows. I mean, you know what the reality of the situation is already. Good for you for standing by your boyfriend, OP.

You need to stop going “well I don’t see it from him” and “well I don’t see it from her” wake up and look at the FACTS. What you “think” doesn’t mean sh1t. If he’s holding your hand and her feet is on him then how is he even groping her? With one hand while you’re there ? She doesn’t remember being naked but remembers your bf touching her. Seems she wants to use this for you to break up with him. Why believe a drunk person when the story isn’t even plausible.

Idk I was black out drunk one time and some guy friend of mine literally put his whole arm don’t my pants. He probably thought she wouldn’t remember and it was dark so he could get away with it.

You had a lot of advice I see. But with all the details you’ve provided, and especially that your bf wants to talk it out. That’s very mature and doesn’t indicate guilt. Perhaps your bf could talk with your sister’s husband. Knowing full well there’s going to be a little bit of tension with the sister for a bit. Having everything straight with the husband may allow your sisters husband to give the right support to his wife knowing the facts. As he was there anyway.

Go with your gut. But with all rational thoughts it seems pretty farfetched for your bf to do that.

"Sis, I love you but you were completely blackout wasted out of your mind and what you're claiming simply did not happen."