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They can do whatever is required of the plot / everyone can be a jedi / if you get stabbed by a lightsaber nothing happens.
It's utterly vapid and devoid of drama or consequences.
Nah, Rhodey got injured in Civil War and is still affected by it. And many of them have died and stayed dead.
Marvel has way more drama and consequence than SW.
Yep, I’ve been saying it for a few years now, it’s the Marvelization of Star Wars. Very little character building and lots of fights with no consequences.
I agree…way too strong now…no one else in the galaxy stands a chance against them. Luke in Mando s2 is as strong as any should ever get and he’s the chosen ones son
I miss when the Jedi were actually good guys. KOTOR 2 is like the only good depiction where they were able to blur the lines on the whole philosophy and challenge the concept of it.
Now every time I hear about a new show or story in the EU on here it’s the same “Well the Jedi aren’t really good guys! Grey Jedi are the true ones with a heart of gold.” It’s uninteresting and not special anymore.
It’s fine if you wanna tell a story about Jedi struggling to walk the line of light and stay true to the code, but these writers for modern canon don’t even like Star Wars to begin with and just want an excuse to write them as bad guys
None of these people like the universe they are writing for. The first thing they think of is "how can I break this into being better?" and the low class writers all come to the same conclusion. We haven't had a non-subverted main line Jedi in 20 years.
Yes 100% and what’s funny is that if a Jedi ever had a Jolee Bindo Holocron the only thing the holocron would say is “please don’t make the same mistakes I made”.
But that is good advice.
Jolee's character was a far better attempt at deconstructing the Jedi's dogmatic and "we know better" attitude than anyone else played straight. There is nothing wrong with someone saying, "Learn from the mistakes I made".
see I think Jolee’s character was kinda interesting
Like his whole philosophy as I took it was that you’re bound to hit that dark side once in a while (literally and figuratively) and that its pointless to try and avoid that.
But overall you have to recognize when that line is crossed or not and realize that reveling in what the dark side can give you is what makes someone evil and lose touch with the light entirely.
I’d paint him more as a beige jedi- still definitely light but recognizes the human condition
or maybe im rose tinting again
I’ll go shake my fist at a tree or the sky or some shit idk
he still has some of my favorite lines which align with EU Luke and against Disney Luke about attachment and love. About how it will save you and not condemn you. You can be a waffling burn out with nuggets of wisdom still.
And even then, it turns out Kreia is just a bitter old coot who thinks she is way smarter than she actually is. She wasn't taken seriously by the Jedi, she wasn't taken seriously by the Sith, Revan - her star pupil - literally didn't give two shits about her and her opinions...
So she decided to blame the Force. She tried to end it. She tried to manipulate the Exile into doing it...only to have the Exile do what everyone else did to her - kick her in the ass.
Kreia'a ramblings only make sense superficially. Any deeper inspection of her claims quickly reveals them all to be a load of bull.
The best thing about Kotor 2 is the Exile. If you go lightside, as canon, they you are the best example of a Jedi. The one who do the right thing, help others and make them better without letting a Code be your guide.
Kreia had good points, but she acted bad and selfish. The Exile learned this and even if in the past she disagrees with the council, she help them, she choose and act. In the endgame she is the future of a new jedi order improved.
Yeah this makes me think they could have just made another new purple Jedi or had Ashoka change to purple. Would have been a lot simpler and maybe could have mace windo explain it somehow. Would have made sense too because Ashoka was Anakins apprentice and could have seen that the dark side is useful and just been like yeah I’m leaving the order because I’m too pissef off. Idk how the grey Jedi thing started but I also do not like how there’s seemingly a bunch of morally grey characters (shouldn’t Sabine be a grey? Especially after the Ashoka show?) who are just free lancers and just don’t succumb to the dark side “just because” I agree that the whole story and vibe around the force is confusing now
Grey Jedi never had anything to do with using both sides of the Force. In every source they are described as Jedi who have issues with following Council orders and prefer to do shit their own way.
The only exception is KOTOR 1, but Bioware is known for writing the Force badly in nearly every instance it touches it.
No, KOTOR did Gray Jedi correctly also with Bindo.
The problem is that alignment is treated like a game mechanic that mainly influences how much "mana" your "spells" will cost depending on which side you're leaning towards.
In the actual narrative, it's not claiming that Jedi are running around blasting Force Lightning 24/7. That's just a bit of fudgery given this is a videogame designed to give you a fair bit of freedom in picking and choosing whatever Force abilities you want.
I mean Bindo fucked off from the Order so he's not a Grey Jedi - by proxy of not being a Jedi anymore.
Alas I did fuck up the definitions. The JKA has the "using both sides of the Force" bullshit. Every other after wards just has Jedi that tend to act dickings towards the Jedi council.
I believe the game dialogue suggests Jolee was still doing good deeds as a Jedi whilst on Kashyyk. He wasn't just sitting in his hermit hole doing absolutely nothing from what I recall.
But it's been many years since I last played it, so perhaps you're right.
If Jolee was indeed doing *nothing*, then I agree he simply wasn't acting as a Jedi at all and had just moved into retirement until you come along.
Indeed, you can ignore JK3. I think Kyle or Luke has some token dialogue at the end of a mission tier to reflect on your chosen abilities (one or the other basically suggests there's nothing suspicious about picking all the dark side powers). You can 100% ignore that as just allowing you freedom to do whatever you want in a videogame.
Even in Jedi Outcast, I ignore videogamey elements. Did Kyle literally slaughter thousands of enemy NPCs on his quest? No. I'm sure a more sanitised "canon" version of the tale would feature him being much more subtle but that's hardly fun outside of an intentional stealth game.
Do I think Kyle was running around blasting lightning? No. I don't think so either.
The most "dark" he gets in the actual story probably ought to be the scene where he's choking Tavion out over a bottomless pit. This is a Kyle who is teetering over the edge and is knee deep in a John Wick revenge story at the time. He starts bringing himself back to rationality once he realises the truth of the matter. I do not believe he went on to incinerate hundreds more people with Force Lightning.
I describe Grey Jedi as non-orthodoxy Jedi. They use The Force like a Jedi and are generally on the side of good, but disagree with certain aspects or rules of The Jedi Order, so do not conform to all aspects of The Jedi Code. Qui-Gon was considered a Grey Jedi in the old canon, while still being part of the order.
It's more about specifics of the organisation, an artificial construction created over generations of individuals doing the best that they can, rather than disagreeing with the core principles and ideals, helping others, protecting life, working with The Force, etc.
Okay I see. The way I was introduced was that qui gon was a grey Jedi pretty much because he only listens to the force and not the code as much but still kinda so he stayed in and kept the green lightsaber. I guess I just don’t like the idea of the greys being the ones who leave and like losing their old light saber and just becoming a random person who’s force sensitive. I just don’t like the way they wrote it, I’d prefer Ashoka’s character to develop more but everyone else does lol. So much lost potential with the sequels we didn’t get to see how Luke would’ve changed the order or anything. Would’ve been really cool it we got to see him and Ashoka reform it and be the new yoda and mace windo combo. So many other better random ways to do fan service than repeating the story lmaooo
I don't think you can call Qui-Gon a "Gray Jedi" either. He's still a member of the Order operating at the behest of the Council.
Perhaps had he survived TPM, he would have formally left the Order due to their general disapproval of the Anakin situation. At which point you could give him the term of Gray Jedi as he's running solo whilst of course not messing with the dark side.
I don't think Ahsoka even ought to exist, but really by the time she left the Order for ridiculously contrived reasons, the Order was also destroyed shortly afterwards. Making her little more than a surviving Jedi. Ultimately it turns out she fully adopts Filoni's nonsensical interpretation of "no attachments" by the time of Mandalorian, so it seems she really did not move past the way the PT Order operated at all.
She's best forgotten as a mistake who shouldn't have been retroactively hamfisted in as Anakin's random never-before-mentioned Padawan.
Can you exaplin to me what you mean by the interpretation of no attachments? I never took her actions as anything more than someone who suffered trauma and is processing it in an unhealthy manner. Not once did I ever think we were supposed to believe her actions were correct.
Ahsoka goes spastic and refuses to look after Baby Yoda simply because she sees that he (as a literal baby creature) looks towards Mando as a father figure and she immediately concludes that Baby Yoda is subsequently going to become another Vader because attachments = bad.
Which is completely ridiculous. And given Filoni wrote that episode about his favourite character, it seems to reflect poorly on them both.
Canon is in a very weird state when it comes to Jedi. The PT era Jedi are being demonised even by fucking *Luke* in TLJ for all the wrong reasons. All the writers in charge of primary Star Wars media seem to have very selective memories about what did or didn't actually happen.
Ya... the Disney view of Jedi, I loved the Legends era more. The Jedi felt like people, and Anakin's fall was very believable. TLJ is a total shitshow to me, only eclipsed by ROS. But based on her behavior on the later part of her own series, I never took Ahsoka's behavior as anything more than poorly processed trauma. The point of what was shown with baby Yoda (and later Sabine) was that ultimately, she was wrong and reacting out of that trauma. She was afraid she would fail as Obi-Wan had and create a new Vader. That's total trash because Anakin had trauma and a Sith lord in her ear, but she wasn't privy to all of that. I don't think that we were never supposed to believe that her bs excuse was anything more than that. Same thing with her stoic shtick as well. That wasn't correct Jedi behavior at all.
Sadly, thanks to the ST, it feels like even writing a character to have what could be considered a realistic arc (really, the girl has seen some stuff she had some serious issues) can be misconstrued as demonizing the Jedi. This is just another reason why I hate the ST and why I have mixed feelings about The Acolyte. Because I have little doubt, the Jedi will be that baddies.
For my money, I can't help but treat Ahsoka with anything but disdain. She simply should not exist as far as I'm concerned. So I really don't give a solitary damn how she's used one way or another.
I also was never fond of TCW or all other connected animated shows. So I'm heavily biased against the majority of it regardless of who was ultimately responsible.
I don't know how Acolyte is going to wind up. But I've learned my lesson by this late stage. I'm not going to bother watching it unless I hear enough trustworthy people tell me to give it a try once the season is finished.
Yeah I don’t like filoni no attachment things at all either. I’m jonesing to see more cool rebels after andor. I agree Ashoka was probably more than enough for a surving Jedi story. I haven’t seen rebels but I did see Ashoka and all of clone wars and she’s two different characters in them so yeah I can get behind forgetting her lol
Qui Gon was called a Grey Jedi by other members of the Order because he usually prefered to do shit his way, rather than 100% the Council way. Hence why he also wasn't elected to the Council, despite having a pretty hefty support from a fair share of it's members.
No. The Jedi order series came out way before knights of the Old Republic setting, and it basically kicked off the idea of a Jedi who uses both light and dark side powers. That game has Grandmaster Luke fighting side by side with a dude who's frying Stormtroopers to death with lightning.
This isn't even getting into other EU abominations like Luke's emerald lightning and vapaad.
Luke doesn't use Dark Side powers outside of DE where he fell to the Dark Side. In fact a fair portion of the EU novels has Luke limiting himself in the Force because he fears using too much power might cause him to fall just like his Father.
Katarn uses the Dark Side because gameplay mechanics + actually learning them while being batshit insane on Dromund Kaas. Same for Jedi Academy. Now while he and Korr do know, from the novels at least, Force Lighting - they aren't exactly trigger happy about it. Even if Katarn considers it just a tool.
Luke wasn't a grandmaster for around twenty two more years when Outcast and Academy happen.
Luke didn't create Electric Judgment. Vapaad is literally used by... 4?5? People. And only one of them did not fall to the Dark Side. Hardly seems stupid to me.
That being said, you are correct to some degree. It was the Jedi Academy Training manual that wrote that Grey Jedi use both sides of the Force. Every other source says the exact opposite.
The manual itself also came out half a decade after KOTOR 1.
Uuuhm, the whole point of KotOR II was that Jedi AREN'T the good guys 🫣
Or, to put it in Atton's words: "Jedi and Sith are both just men and women with too much power that fight over religion while the rest of us burns."
And actually, this ist still the excuse they use nowadays for why, say, the separatist members that aren't mustache twirling saturday morning cartoon villians (like the cyborg spider dude from TCW or the TechnoUnion) or Nute Gunray (whos just stoopid) can't apparently tell the difference between Dooku and, say, Ki-Adi Mundi.
And i still think its not that good an excuse.
Not everything KotOR is good or above critique.
Power creep, happens to every IP that hangs around too long.
You have to write a story that's bigger and crazier and has higher stakes than last time, and eventually everyone is just Super Sayian God Super Sayian Blue God Super Max Ki Blue Fused Super Goku blowing up universes with a fart.
I know it generally happens, but at least for me I really feel it doesn’t NEED to happen. If I like a franchise that is based on world building like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings etc I’d be stoked to just have good story that builds the world or just lives in the world.
Look at what Batman has been able to do for decades. Batman was always just a regular human, so that contains his powers and abilities some, but writers have been able to steer clear of turning him into Iron Man. Instead they actually write a story.
Jedi should be more like Batman with just a handful of special abilities that don’t turn them into gods.
> Lord of the Rings
Tolkiens universe has insane powercreep tho 😂 read Silmarillion. Remember the Balrog, the dark fire spirit that an entire civilisation of dwarves couldn't beat? That required a literal angel to sacrifice himself to kill? >!Silmarillion has elves that kill those things by the dozens lol.!<
>!Hell, you will never be able to take Sauron seriously ever again, dude was literally sexy jutsued by a teenage girl!!<
Haha ok well as someone who’s experience of Lord of the Rings is solely the films and tv show (🤢) I’ll admit that Lord of the Rings apparently wasn’t the best example. But at the same time: Lord of the Rings without power creep sound great to me so I stand by what I said!
This is basically the big problem of Disney Jedi starting with Rey, you know there’s no chance they won’t ever be the best. There is zero chance of Rey ever losing to anyone and having to get stronger like Luke did to Vader.
>This is basically the big problem of Disney Jedi starting with Rey,
Are you serious? In the pre Disney EU Luke could literally time travel and turn entire planets invisible. I'm not a defender of Disney wars in any way but let's not pretend that Star Wars was in better shape before they acquired it.
Funnily enough, if you only have the original trilogy, then the sith are essentially evil wizards, while Jedi are knights with lightsabers. There's no indication any sith ever wields a lightsaber, only Jedi, who keep them after they fall to the dark side. Heck, the emperor even calls the lightsaber a Jedi weapon.
Yet somehow, everything, official and spinoff, have given all sith red lightsabers.
Very interesting observation. It would have made Darth Vader even more special, the one Sith with a lightsaber, albeit red, because he is a fallen Jedi.
Have the Sith posses their own weapons or, as you suggested, be evil wizards.
The Jedi ARE knights when needed (or when there is an idealistic crusade) but spend their rest of their lives in peace, meditating, studying the Force and help better the lives of the people in their communities (before the dark times. Before the Empire). I would also retcon Obi-Wan and Yoda's farmer robes, as a Jedi would choose the simplest garments depending on the planet/community they are stationed. A farmer, a stonemason, a carpenter even.
>if you only have the original trilogy, then the sith are essentially evil wizards
The sith weren't even named during the Original Triology and probably were not conceived yet as a concept.
Figuring out how to de-creep the power scale becomes a skill. They did it to Luke pre-NJO. And his power scale felt realistic to culminate in The Unifying force.
And then... Dark Nest was like F-it.
Currently starting to read the EU and by all indications, I'm going to just stop at the end of NJO if I ever get there. Also going to skip the Jedi academy trilogy because what I've read about the plot seems very dumb. So basically, just the thrawn trilogy, hand of thrawn biology, and NJO - again if I really commit to it.
Ever since TLJ, ST fans claim that the Jedi have always been pacifist and that George Lucas misunderstood the Jedi. It boggles my mind that anyone could watch every movie and series, yet come to that conclusion.
I miss when the Jedi weren’t misinterpreted.
It’s less that they were pacifist, and more they encouraged peace and only used force as a last resort. I always imagined them as eastern-style monks that practiced martial arts as part of their training. Sure they preach harmony and mindfulness but they’re more than capable of throwing down when a threat arises and refuses to play nice. Their role in the old republic was as peacekeepers and diplomats/ambassadors, particularly ones who could go into dangerous situations without fear.
The biggest WTF moments for me have been the force healing, and watching Reva, egghead inquisitor, and Sabine survive lightsaber wounds, and Leias weird Mary Poppins force pull. The Leia thing would have worked fine if they had just shown us that she had gone through some training, or had used the force in Force awakens. She does that space flying shit but has done nothing else like that prior to that, and then she doesn’t do anything again. Makes no sense.
I dislike the Leia one because:
a) it’s essentially a new power that’s never been seen before or since
b) it looks incredibly bad
c) it would’ve been more narratively satisfying for her to have actually died there and the fake out ends up not doing much for the rest of the trilogy because of Carrie’s unfortunate passing
d) it looks so fucking bad, seriously
We don’t need to see her train to assume that she can use some force abilities, we already knew she was force sensitive and it’s been 30 years plus she’s in a life or death situation. Either way though, yea I’m with you on the rest
For me I think more so that it’s the one time she uses the force to THAT extent. Then she just doesn’t do anything again, or even before this. Like if just comes out of nowhere. In Force Awakens she does nothing that she didn’t do in the OG trilogy, not even like a force push or something. So while maybe we can assume that she had training from Luke, it’s more so the fact that it felt extremely shoe horned in.
I miss it when Jedi were the elite forces of The Republic and not monks at all. Like they were envisioned back in the 1970s.
My favourite depiction of this concept: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Imperial_Knight
The Sequel trilogy had the perfect opportunity to show us what Luke's New Jedi Order could have been with a different philosophy than the prequel Jedi.
That opportunity is now forever gone. Sure, we can read about it in the EU, but seeing it on screen would have been great.
I also miss the days of no lightsaber porn. When the Jedi were a monsatic order who taught harmony with the Force. Now everyone has a glowstick and the Jedi are super warriors.
I think Jedi: Fallen Order does a decent job of having Cal have a reasonable level of power and is pretty straight up a good guy Jedi with the empire as bad guys. Don't know about the second one.
Yeah he got rekt by Vader 🥲 but everyone who isn't Luke or Obi-Wan gets rekt when facing Vader, even Mary Suesoka got rekt by him (and shes his apprentice), lets not forget that 👀
Yeah but like his suite of abilities in the game are pretty reasonable, force push, pull and slow plus his force echo thing. Also struggles to hold his own against inquisitors canonically (when the second sister nearly murks you before BD1 saves your ass with a laser wall)
they need to separate the monks and the politics and make it clearer which is which. the touch on it in the prequels most notably when they accepted Anakin on the council but did not recognize him as a master. when you get down to it Anakin was neither tied to the internal politics nor the internal philosophies
Mistakes were made when Jedi stopped more or less being Buddhist shaolin warriors. Sure the old eu focused way too much on their knightly bloodlines (half of the stuff is super focused on Princes and kids aged 4 already being called jedi) but new canon essentially turned them into jannisaries.
Lmao I totally disagree with this. We’ve seen actual “gods” in Star Wars and comparing them with Jedi and/or Sith, aside from maybe Luke or Anakin in the WBW is just ludicrous. The Son and Daughter could both manipulate time and space (the marvel equivalent of combining the powers of Wanda and Loki) and the Father had the same powers turned up to 11 and was the conduit through which the force flowed.
This is canon stuff, unless of course you include legends too, which are kinda ridiculous in the power scales imo.
This is also to say that Jedi are not the same as force “gods” and that the argument about new Jedi learning things to quickly is a totally separate argument.
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They can do whatever is required of the plot / everyone can be a jedi / if you get stabbed by a lightsaber nothing happens. It's utterly vapid and devoid of drama or consequences.
They turned them into Marvel superheroes
Bin-fuckin-go.
Nah, Rhodey got injured in Civil War and is still affected by it. And many of them have died and stayed dead. Marvel has way more drama and consequence than SW.
He also got replaced by a shape-shifting alien...
Or more like superman. When you're the most powerful character, basically invulnerable....where's the story.
Yep, I’ve been saying it for a few years now, it’s the Marvelization of Star Wars. Very little character building and lots of fights with no consequences.
Leia flying through space says hello.
I agree…way too strong now…no one else in the galaxy stands a chance against them. Luke in Mando s2 is as strong as any should ever get and he’s the chosen ones son
I miss when the Jedi were actually good guys. KOTOR 2 is like the only good depiction where they were able to blur the lines on the whole philosophy and challenge the concept of it. Now every time I hear about a new show or story in the EU on here it’s the same “Well the Jedi aren’t really good guys! Grey Jedi are the true ones with a heart of gold.” It’s uninteresting and not special anymore. It’s fine if you wanna tell a story about Jedi struggling to walk the line of light and stay true to the code, but these writers for modern canon don’t even like Star Wars to begin with and just want an excuse to write them as bad guys
None of these people like the universe they are writing for. The first thing they think of is "how can I break this into being better?" and the low class writers all come to the same conclusion. We haven't had a non-subverted main line Jedi in 20 years.
Jolee Bindo was a mistake, frankly. People took his waffling as wisdom.
Yes 100% and what’s funny is that if a Jedi ever had a Jolee Bindo Holocron the only thing the holocron would say is “please don’t make the same mistakes I made”.
But that is good advice. Jolee's character was a far better attempt at deconstructing the Jedi's dogmatic and "we know better" attitude than anyone else played straight. There is nothing wrong with someone saying, "Learn from the mistakes I made".
see I think Jolee’s character was kinda interesting Like his whole philosophy as I took it was that you’re bound to hit that dark side once in a while (literally and figuratively) and that its pointless to try and avoid that. But overall you have to recognize when that line is crossed or not and realize that reveling in what the dark side can give you is what makes someone evil and lose touch with the light entirely. I’d paint him more as a beige jedi- still definitely light but recognizes the human condition or maybe im rose tinting again I’ll go shake my fist at a tree or the sky or some shit idk
Jolee is trolling ~80% of the time tho.
And the other half is people getting fooled by Kreia
he still has some of my favorite lines which align with EU Luke and against Disney Luke about attachment and love. About how it will save you and not condemn you. You can be a waffling burn out with nuggets of wisdom still.
And even then, it turns out Kreia is just a bitter old coot who thinks she is way smarter than she actually is. She wasn't taken seriously by the Jedi, she wasn't taken seriously by the Sith, Revan - her star pupil - literally didn't give two shits about her and her opinions... So she decided to blame the Force. She tried to end it. She tried to manipulate the Exile into doing it...only to have the Exile do what everyone else did to her - kick her in the ass. Kreia'a ramblings only make sense superficially. Any deeper inspection of her claims quickly reveals them all to be a load of bull.
Fascinating aint it? 😅 All that "wise"cracking, hours upon hours of "intricate" dialogue... ... and then shes just one of them boomers lol
The best thing about Kotor 2 is the Exile. If you go lightside, as canon, they you are the best example of a Jedi. The one who do the right thing, help others and make them better without letting a Code be your guide. Kreia had good points, but she acted bad and selfish. The Exile learned this and even if in the past she disagrees with the council, she help them, she choose and act. In the endgame she is the future of a new jedi order improved.
Yeah this makes me think they could have just made another new purple Jedi or had Ashoka change to purple. Would have been a lot simpler and maybe could have mace windo explain it somehow. Would have made sense too because Ashoka was Anakins apprentice and could have seen that the dark side is useful and just been like yeah I’m leaving the order because I’m too pissef off. Idk how the grey Jedi thing started but I also do not like how there’s seemingly a bunch of morally grey characters (shouldn’t Sabine be a grey? Especially after the Ashoka show?) who are just free lancers and just don’t succumb to the dark side “just because” I agree that the whole story and vibe around the force is confusing now
Grey Jedi never had anything to do with using both sides of the Force. In every source they are described as Jedi who have issues with following Council orders and prefer to do shit their own way. The only exception is KOTOR 1, but Bioware is known for writing the Force badly in nearly every instance it touches it.
No, KOTOR did Gray Jedi correctly also with Bindo. The problem is that alignment is treated like a game mechanic that mainly influences how much "mana" your "spells" will cost depending on which side you're leaning towards. In the actual narrative, it's not claiming that Jedi are running around blasting Force Lightning 24/7. That's just a bit of fudgery given this is a videogame designed to give you a fair bit of freedom in picking and choosing whatever Force abilities you want.
I mean Bindo fucked off from the Order so he's not a Grey Jedi - by proxy of not being a Jedi anymore. Alas I did fuck up the definitions. The JKA has the "using both sides of the Force" bullshit. Every other after wards just has Jedi that tend to act dickings towards the Jedi council.
I believe the game dialogue suggests Jolee was still doing good deeds as a Jedi whilst on Kashyyk. He wasn't just sitting in his hermit hole doing absolutely nothing from what I recall. But it's been many years since I last played it, so perhaps you're right. If Jolee was indeed doing *nothing*, then I agree he simply wasn't acting as a Jedi at all and had just moved into retirement until you come along. Indeed, you can ignore JK3. I think Kyle or Luke has some token dialogue at the end of a mission tier to reflect on your chosen abilities (one or the other basically suggests there's nothing suspicious about picking all the dark side powers). You can 100% ignore that as just allowing you freedom to do whatever you want in a videogame. Even in Jedi Outcast, I ignore videogamey elements. Did Kyle literally slaughter thousands of enemy NPCs on his quest? No. I'm sure a more sanitised "canon" version of the tale would feature him being much more subtle but that's hardly fun outside of an intentional stealth game. Do I think Kyle was running around blasting lightning? No. I don't think so either. The most "dark" he gets in the actual story probably ought to be the scene where he's choking Tavion out over a bottomless pit. This is a Kyle who is teetering over the edge and is knee deep in a John Wick revenge story at the time. He starts bringing himself back to rationality once he realises the truth of the matter. I do not believe he went on to incinerate hundreds more people with Force Lightning.
I describe Grey Jedi as non-orthodoxy Jedi. They use The Force like a Jedi and are generally on the side of good, but disagree with certain aspects or rules of The Jedi Order, so do not conform to all aspects of The Jedi Code. Qui-Gon was considered a Grey Jedi in the old canon, while still being part of the order. It's more about specifics of the organisation, an artificial construction created over generations of individuals doing the best that they can, rather than disagreeing with the core principles and ideals, helping others, protecting life, working with The Force, etc.
Okay I see. The way I was introduced was that qui gon was a grey Jedi pretty much because he only listens to the force and not the code as much but still kinda so he stayed in and kept the green lightsaber. I guess I just don’t like the idea of the greys being the ones who leave and like losing their old light saber and just becoming a random person who’s force sensitive. I just don’t like the way they wrote it, I’d prefer Ashoka’s character to develop more but everyone else does lol. So much lost potential with the sequels we didn’t get to see how Luke would’ve changed the order or anything. Would’ve been really cool it we got to see him and Ashoka reform it and be the new yoda and mace windo combo. So many other better random ways to do fan service than repeating the story lmaooo
I don't think you can call Qui-Gon a "Gray Jedi" either. He's still a member of the Order operating at the behest of the Council. Perhaps had he survived TPM, he would have formally left the Order due to their general disapproval of the Anakin situation. At which point you could give him the term of Gray Jedi as he's running solo whilst of course not messing with the dark side. I don't think Ahsoka even ought to exist, but really by the time she left the Order for ridiculously contrived reasons, the Order was also destroyed shortly afterwards. Making her little more than a surviving Jedi. Ultimately it turns out she fully adopts Filoni's nonsensical interpretation of "no attachments" by the time of Mandalorian, so it seems she really did not move past the way the PT Order operated at all. She's best forgotten as a mistake who shouldn't have been retroactively hamfisted in as Anakin's random never-before-mentioned Padawan.
Can you exaplin to me what you mean by the interpretation of no attachments? I never took her actions as anything more than someone who suffered trauma and is processing it in an unhealthy manner. Not once did I ever think we were supposed to believe her actions were correct.
Ahsoka goes spastic and refuses to look after Baby Yoda simply because she sees that he (as a literal baby creature) looks towards Mando as a father figure and she immediately concludes that Baby Yoda is subsequently going to become another Vader because attachments = bad. Which is completely ridiculous. And given Filoni wrote that episode about his favourite character, it seems to reflect poorly on them both. Canon is in a very weird state when it comes to Jedi. The PT era Jedi are being demonised even by fucking *Luke* in TLJ for all the wrong reasons. All the writers in charge of primary Star Wars media seem to have very selective memories about what did or didn't actually happen.
Ya... the Disney view of Jedi, I loved the Legends era more. The Jedi felt like people, and Anakin's fall was very believable. TLJ is a total shitshow to me, only eclipsed by ROS. But based on her behavior on the later part of her own series, I never took Ahsoka's behavior as anything more than poorly processed trauma. The point of what was shown with baby Yoda (and later Sabine) was that ultimately, she was wrong and reacting out of that trauma. She was afraid she would fail as Obi-Wan had and create a new Vader. That's total trash because Anakin had trauma and a Sith lord in her ear, but she wasn't privy to all of that. I don't think that we were never supposed to believe that her bs excuse was anything more than that. Same thing with her stoic shtick as well. That wasn't correct Jedi behavior at all. Sadly, thanks to the ST, it feels like even writing a character to have what could be considered a realistic arc (really, the girl has seen some stuff she had some serious issues) can be misconstrued as demonizing the Jedi. This is just another reason why I hate the ST and why I have mixed feelings about The Acolyte. Because I have little doubt, the Jedi will be that baddies.
For my money, I can't help but treat Ahsoka with anything but disdain. She simply should not exist as far as I'm concerned. So I really don't give a solitary damn how she's used one way or another. I also was never fond of TCW or all other connected animated shows. So I'm heavily biased against the majority of it regardless of who was ultimately responsible. I don't know how Acolyte is going to wind up. But I've learned my lesson by this late stage. I'm not going to bother watching it unless I hear enough trustworthy people tell me to give it a try once the season is finished.
Yeah I don’t like filoni no attachment things at all either. I’m jonesing to see more cool rebels after andor. I agree Ashoka was probably more than enough for a surving Jedi story. I haven’t seen rebels but I did see Ashoka and all of clone wars and she’s two different characters in them so yeah I can get behind forgetting her lol
Qui Gon was called a Grey Jedi by other members of the Order because he usually prefered to do shit his way, rather than 100% the Council way. Hence why he also wasn't elected to the Council, despite having a pretty hefty support from a fair share of it's members.
No. The Jedi order series came out way before knights of the Old Republic setting, and it basically kicked off the idea of a Jedi who uses both light and dark side powers. That game has Grandmaster Luke fighting side by side with a dude who's frying Stormtroopers to death with lightning. This isn't even getting into other EU abominations like Luke's emerald lightning and vapaad.
Luke doesn't use Dark Side powers outside of DE where he fell to the Dark Side. In fact a fair portion of the EU novels has Luke limiting himself in the Force because he fears using too much power might cause him to fall just like his Father. Katarn uses the Dark Side because gameplay mechanics + actually learning them while being batshit insane on Dromund Kaas. Same for Jedi Academy. Now while he and Korr do know, from the novels at least, Force Lighting - they aren't exactly trigger happy about it. Even if Katarn considers it just a tool. Luke wasn't a grandmaster for around twenty two more years when Outcast and Academy happen. Luke didn't create Electric Judgment. Vapaad is literally used by... 4?5? People. And only one of them did not fall to the Dark Side. Hardly seems stupid to me. That being said, you are correct to some degree. It was the Jedi Academy Training manual that wrote that Grey Jedi use both sides of the Force. Every other source says the exact opposite. The manual itself also came out half a decade after KOTOR 1.
Uuuhm, the whole point of KotOR II was that Jedi AREN'T the good guys 🫣 Or, to put it in Atton's words: "Jedi and Sith are both just men and women with too much power that fight over religion while the rest of us burns." And actually, this ist still the excuse they use nowadays for why, say, the separatist members that aren't mustache twirling saturday morning cartoon villians (like the cyborg spider dude from TCW or the TechnoUnion) or Nute Gunray (whos just stoopid) can't apparently tell the difference between Dooku and, say, Ki-Adi Mundi. And i still think its not that good an excuse. Not everything KotOR is good or above critique.
Power creep, happens to every IP that hangs around too long. You have to write a story that's bigger and crazier and has higher stakes than last time, and eventually everyone is just Super Sayian God Super Sayian Blue God Super Max Ki Blue Fused Super Goku blowing up universes with a fart.
I know it generally happens, but at least for me I really feel it doesn’t NEED to happen. If I like a franchise that is based on world building like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings etc I’d be stoked to just have good story that builds the world or just lives in the world.
Look at what Batman has been able to do for decades. Batman was always just a regular human, so that contains his powers and abilities some, but writers have been able to steer clear of turning him into Iron Man. Instead they actually write a story. Jedi should be more like Batman with just a handful of special abilities that don’t turn them into gods.
Agreeeeeed
> Lord of the Rings Tolkiens universe has insane powercreep tho 😂 read Silmarillion. Remember the Balrog, the dark fire spirit that an entire civilisation of dwarves couldn't beat? That required a literal angel to sacrifice himself to kill? >!Silmarillion has elves that kill those things by the dozens lol.!< >!Hell, you will never be able to take Sauron seriously ever again, dude was literally sexy jutsued by a teenage girl!!<
Haha ok well as someone who’s experience of Lord of the Rings is solely the films and tv show (🤢) I’ll admit that Lord of the Rings apparently wasn’t the best example. But at the same time: Lord of the Rings without power creep sound great to me so I stand by what I said!
This is basically the big problem of Disney Jedi starting with Rey, you know there’s no chance they won’t ever be the best. There is zero chance of Rey ever losing to anyone and having to get stronger like Luke did to Vader.
When Rey beat the main bad guy the first time she picked up a lightsaber... yeah. Not a good sign.
>This is basically the big problem of Disney Jedi starting with Rey, Are you serious? In the pre Disney EU Luke could literally time travel and turn entire planets invisible. I'm not a defender of Disney wars in any way but let's not pretend that Star Wars was in better shape before they acquired it.
You are in the wrong subreddit little buddy
Funnily enough, if you only have the original trilogy, then the sith are essentially evil wizards, while Jedi are knights with lightsabers. There's no indication any sith ever wields a lightsaber, only Jedi, who keep them after they fall to the dark side. Heck, the emperor even calls the lightsaber a Jedi weapon. Yet somehow, everything, official and spinoff, have given all sith red lightsabers.
Very interesting observation. It would have made Darth Vader even more special, the one Sith with a lightsaber, albeit red, because he is a fallen Jedi. Have the Sith posses their own weapons or, as you suggested, be evil wizards. The Jedi ARE knights when needed (or when there is an idealistic crusade) but spend their rest of their lives in peace, meditating, studying the Force and help better the lives of the people in their communities (before the dark times. Before the Empire). I would also retcon Obi-Wan and Yoda's farmer robes, as a Jedi would choose the simplest garments depending on the planet/community they are stationed. A farmer, a stonemason, a carpenter even.
Well, as Kreia pointed out in KotOR II, the vast majority of Sith are fallen jedi. So not that special after all.
I thought it was lame that the Prequels had EVERYONE wearing the same kinda robes Obi Wan was wearing in the OT.
>if you only have the original trilogy, then the sith are essentially evil wizards The sith weren't even named during the Original Triology and probably were not conceived yet as a concept.
That's kinda wild tbh.
Yeah. Force healing, surviving a lightsaber, blocking sabers and freezing / redirecting blaster bolts What can they not do?
Don't forget super speed!
And Force Skype calls, teleportation....
But only one time, which is even more awkward...
Figuring out how to de-creep the power scale becomes a skill. They did it to Luke pre-NJO. And his power scale felt realistic to culminate in The Unifying force. And then... Dark Nest was like F-it.
Currently starting to read the EU and by all indications, I'm going to just stop at the end of NJO if I ever get there. Also going to skip the Jedi academy trilogy because what I've read about the plot seems very dumb. So basically, just the thrawn trilogy, hand of thrawn biology, and NJO - again if I really commit to it.
Ever since TLJ, ST fans claim that the Jedi have always been pacifist and that George Lucas misunderstood the Jedi. It boggles my mind that anyone could watch every movie and series, yet come to that conclusion. I miss when the Jedi weren’t misinterpreted.
It’s less that they were pacifist, and more they encouraged peace and only used force as a last resort. I always imagined them as eastern-style monks that practiced martial arts as part of their training. Sure they preach harmony and mindfulness but they’re more than capable of throwing down when a threat arises and refuses to play nice. Their role in the old republic was as peacekeepers and diplomats/ambassadors, particularly ones who could go into dangerous situations without fear.
The biggest WTF moments for me have been the force healing, and watching Reva, egghead inquisitor, and Sabine survive lightsaber wounds, and Leias weird Mary Poppins force pull. The Leia thing would have worked fine if they had just shown us that she had gone through some training, or had used the force in Force awakens. She does that space flying shit but has done nothing else like that prior to that, and then she doesn’t do anything again. Makes no sense.
Don’t forget, Reva survived being impaled on a lightsaber twice!
Jeezus, forgot it was twice
Once as a fucking kid!
Duh, she must have developed natural immunity after the first one. I had this exact same thing with COVID, so the science checks out.
I dislike the Leia one because: a) it’s essentially a new power that’s never been seen before or since b) it looks incredibly bad c) it would’ve been more narratively satisfying for her to have actually died there and the fake out ends up not doing much for the rest of the trilogy because of Carrie’s unfortunate passing d) it looks so fucking bad, seriously We don’t need to see her train to assume that she can use some force abilities, we already knew she was force sensitive and it’s been 30 years plus she’s in a life or death situation. Either way though, yea I’m with you on the rest
For me I think more so that it’s the one time she uses the force to THAT extent. Then she just doesn’t do anything again, or even before this. Like if just comes out of nowhere. In Force Awakens she does nothing that she didn’t do in the OG trilogy, not even like a force push or something. So while maybe we can assume that she had training from Luke, it’s more so the fact that it felt extremely shoe horned in.
Force Healing has been a thing since Cilghal, but it was never as incredibly powerful as it was depicted in TroS
I miss when Jedi had to deflect blaster bolts instead of being to Force freeze them.
I miss it when Jedi were the elite forces of The Republic and not monks at all. Like they were envisioned back in the 1970s. My favourite depiction of this concept: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Imperial_Knight
Why not both 😏
OP you don’t like glow stick rave party??
One of my problems with the High Republic is that they've gone from monks to superheroes. It feels like I'm reading Green Lantern Corp half the time.
going from the phantom menace council to ashoka in space is such a lame downgrade. i agree fr
The Sequel trilogy had the perfect opportunity to show us what Luke's New Jedi Order could have been with a different philosophy than the prequel Jedi. That opportunity is now forever gone. Sure, we can read about it in the EU, but seeing it on screen would have been great.
I also miss the days of no lightsaber porn. When the Jedi were a monsatic order who taught harmony with the Force. Now everyone has a glowstick and the Jedi are super warriors.
I think Jedi: Fallen Order does a decent job of having Cal have a reasonable level of power and is pretty straight up a good guy Jedi with the empire as bad guys. Don't know about the second one.
Yeah he got rekt by Vader 🥲 but everyone who isn't Luke or Obi-Wan gets rekt when facing Vader, even Mary Suesoka got rekt by him (and shes his apprentice), lets not forget that 👀
Yeah but like his suite of abilities in the game are pretty reasonable, force push, pull and slow plus his force echo thing. Also struggles to hold his own against inquisitors canonically (when the second sister nearly murks you before BD1 saves your ass with a laser wall)
Yeah. I hate Disney.
OT: Monks with mysterious powers PT: Basically war generals and flippy backs. ST: Superheroes.
they need to separate the monks and the politics and make it clearer which is which. the touch on it in the prequels most notably when they accepted Anakin on the council but did not recognize him as a master. when you get down to it Anakin was neither tied to the internal politics nor the internal philosophies
Mistakes were made when Jedi stopped more or less being Buddhist shaolin warriors. Sure the old eu focused way too much on their knightly bloodlines (half of the stuff is super focused on Princes and kids aged 4 already being called jedi) but new canon essentially turned them into jannisaries.
Jedi can be both very powerful and also be written well (swtor for example)
Knights. They are Knights. But yeah i get your point.
Are they? What Lord did they serve?
The Force.
This has been the case for the past few decades. Starkiller literally pulled a star destroyer out of the sky
Lmao I totally disagree with this. We’ve seen actual “gods” in Star Wars and comparing them with Jedi and/or Sith, aside from maybe Luke or Anakin in the WBW is just ludicrous. The Son and Daughter could both manipulate time and space (the marvel equivalent of combining the powers of Wanda and Loki) and the Father had the same powers turned up to 11 and was the conduit through which the force flowed. This is canon stuff, unless of course you include legends too, which are kinda ridiculous in the power scales imo. This is also to say that Jedi are not the same as force “gods” and that the argument about new Jedi learning things to quickly is a totally separate argument.
That was all of legends.
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