If crown was fought with rapier, instead of by armored fighters, then what would stop the inverse of this from happening? If crown was purely rapier oriented would you authorize, fight, and get good enough at rapier in order to win crown? As you said yourself, there's no barrier to fighting. What if crown was determined by a fashion show, with professional judges who picked the most well done/accurate garb? Sewing is very accessible. If youre not good at either of these activities then you could always be a consort and have somebody else win the tournament for you I suppose.
The main thing people bring up in these conversations is that it's not entirely fair that one activity gets to dictate who goes on the throne. It's got nothing to do with the accessibility of armored combat. A lot of the people I talk to about it just think it's unfair that armored, and by necessity prowess in armored combat, is the ONLY method to the throne.
I think a better question here is why should armored combat be the only way we decide a crown.
Exactly, I think opening up crown to other activities would be a huge boost to them. Imagine if there was an equestrian tournament for crown! Equestrian is such a cool activity, but because it is uncommon, and doesn’t really have any awards or recognition (as far as I’m aware) it generally gets shunted off and forgotten.
I do think that arts and sciences are problematic to make a part of crown, mostly due to the difficulty in making the winner objective. I feel like that would turn into a popularity contest fairly quickly, but for everything else it could really encourage people to step out of their current activities and try something new.
Yes and no. Cost barrier eventually is very high, but you can begin participating and actually ride for very little. Helmet and heeled boots, get some basic riding lessons. Then coming to practices and events, authorizing and ground crewing and you can usually come to arrangements for horse use at events. If you get hooked, then you can worry about the investment.
Now tell me that heavy is a cheap investment. Or that being Crown isn’t hideously expensive all on its own.
Also: Do it on a real account, you coward.
Great way to make the society look appealing!
Let's see your courage, post your details, name and location before posting and passing judgement on another.
Oh wait, you won't.
Armored should be the only way to decide crown because it is the greatest journey you can undertake in order to sit in the highest figurehead position in the game.
Technically speaking, any armored thug good at fighting can win crown. They do not. The weight of the crown necessitates that the winner has a volunteer job for 4-6 months, so they'd better be into the culture of the SCA. The result is that people who tend to win crowns have deep roots in the game. That means typically peers win crown. Knights.
Knight culture has all the eyes of the SCA on it because it is typically where your sovereigns come from. You can not be a knight if all you do is fight armored, which is their area of prowess. In the words of Duke Sean, you have to be well-rounded and be able to create the SCA anywhere you go. That means knights need to have some artform, some courtly graces, some service greater than that of a spectator.
Tell me, which peerage demands that you do SOME combat, let alone armored combat, in order to be considered?
None of the non-fighting peerages.
Which brings us to rapier. It is a fun game. It is a different game. It does require skill, and it does require knowledge and training. It is not equivalent to armored fighting. Rapier is like washing your hands compared to armored, which is a plunge in the ice-cold bath.
The conversion from armored fighter to rapier fighter is less difficult than the conversion from rapier fighter to armored fighter.
It is a different game, so you won't often see armored going into a rapier fight and whipping mods right away, but it is an easier game. It would take less time to adapt to rapier than to armored.
This is an undeniable truth. It can be measured. And anecdotally, everyone knows old armored fighters who still want to fight, so they switch to rapier because it is easier on their bodies. It's what they can do.
As someone who does both, I'll never get excited to watch a rapier match over an armored match. There's just less going on.
And again, the cultures are entirely different. You go through a different journey, and it can change who you are as a person. I argue that the journey to reach the top of armored fighting is a more fulfilling one than rapier. Just my experience.
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For me, the crown will feel cheapened if I don't win it by right of arms. Armored combat. Perhaps I never will either.
Honestly, I wouldn't really care if they rotated crown between each domain of the SCA. Armored melees and tourneys will still be the peak SCA experience. The highest adrenaline rush you can have in the game. But you asked why armored should decide crown.
I'm just gonna match you paragraph for paragraph here in order to address your points in order.
Greatest journey is subjective. For some people A&S could be the greatest journey in the SCA, or bardic could be. You sound like you had a transcendental experience fighting armored, which is cool, but what if I think Rapier is the greatest journey and should be the only way to determine a crown? This isn't really an argument for crown being only fought by armored combatants, it's just how you justify the exclusive right of the crown to be only fought for by armored combatants based on your preference of game.
Armored thugs win crowns all the time, and make good or bad kings depending on their ability to be a leader, and their knowledge of the game. Sure knights tend to win crown more often, usually a small group of less than 10 passing it between themselves. But when they all decide to not fight for it we get thugs, sometimes for multiple years. And I can tell you with 100% certainty that their armored combat ability does not transfer to their leadership skills. Their leadership ability, bad or good, is entirely independent from their fighting ability, and I don't believe that armored combat makes a king a good or bad king.
Knight culture is related to crown sure, mainly because crowns can only be armored folks, but you don't have to be a knight to be a crown. Again, seen multiple thugs be crowns who were nowhere near a knighting. Also every peer has to be involved in the SCA pretty deeply in order to be a peer. You think the MoD just sits around doing rapier? No way, they go out and participate in the other sectors of the SCA just like the knights do. There's no difference between them and their engagement in the SCA.
Being a good fighter still doesn't make you a good leader. It just makes you a good fighter thrust into a leadership position. Also, just because knights tend to win crown often doesn't mean that only knights win crown. This example entirely depends on a knight winning crown, and not some random armored thug.
That's, just like, your opinion man. I get you like armored more but damn, saying that armored is superior to rapier is just personal preference, which is fine but entirely irrelevant when it comes to fairness.
Still an opinion. We have two armored fighters that fight rapier at my practice as well. One guy got injured in armor and decided to try rapier because he could do it one handed while he recovered. He told me it was way more complicated than armored, and that he had a way tougher time getting into rapier than armored because of the difficulty. Also the knight at our practice has told me it's easier to get good at armored than it is to get good at rapier, so now that's my two anecdotal stories to your one.
Old armored fighters go into rapier sure. But they generally don't become MoDs or even climb higher than an AoA. Also the reason is because rapier uses different muscle groups in different ways, meaning less strain on damaged areas from armored. I know a guy that has trouble walking, but can still do rapier footwork fine because it's a different set of muscles for movement. Again, irrelevant to why armored should be the only way to pick a crown.
That's still just your preference. And preference ain't a good way to determine fairness.
And I think the rapier journey is more fulfilling. I'm not sure why a more fulfilling journey should be a measure of fairness, especially when that is a highly subjective measurement. Its like saying you want a coal miner to be president over an iron miner because mining coal could give you the black lung so it build character. Not to mention mining doesn't mean you understand foreign policy or domestic law.
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I agree. It's why I don't want to win it by "just" being a consort. I like to do things with my own two hands and make my dreams happen for myself. I realize I could be a consort, and do have friends that would put me in the throne if I asked. But why can't a rapier fighter put themselves in the throne if they want to? Why can't they even have a chance to do it themselves in their greatest journey?
Thanks for your response. I genuinely believe the OP, and even that other guy who responded to me, are coming from genuine places. These conversations are important, And will only become more common as more rapier fighters join the game over time.
This is a pretty easy question to answer: because this is the game. People know about it when they sign up and it’s not some secret. If they don’t like the rules or structure, there are dozens of other games to play.
It’s very similar to playing football, not liking the rules, and insisting they change the rules to match baseball halfway through.
That first paragraph you have there may be a point, but games have changed plenty of times in the past in order to be more or less restrictive either for safety standards or for in terms of fairness. Using baseball, there was a point in time where only white folks were allowed to play baseball in the major league. That ended in '47 with Jackie Robinson, and marked a huge step forward for the MLB in terms of fairness to black baseball players. Note that this change was done in the name of fairness, and giving more athletes a shot at playing in the major leagues.
Granted, the difference between Armored Combat and Rapier is less important than racial issues in baseball, but I think my analogy works a bit better. It's not about changing the rules of the game, it's more about opening up the opportunity to more people who otherwise might not have it.
Except that literally everyone is allowed to compete in crown(well there are so prerequisites kn parricipation for some.kingdoms) as long as you authorize. Nobody is being specifically excluded.
People are excluded though. They're excluded through the skill ceiling of Armored being high, or the limited availability of high level Armored fighters for them to be a consort for. Multiple people in this thread have brought up how they're excluded due to medical reasons, others in my kingdom are excluded based on lack of available teachers or lack of an armored community at all to practice with. Just because it's not specific doesn't mean it's not exclusion.
This is like saying that only people who play golf should be allowed to be president, and that you need to win a PGA in order to be president. Yeah sure I could get a set of cheap clubs and give it a shot, but I've got to out shoot Tiger Woods to even have a chance, not to mention the other golf lifers that have been multiple PGA champs for almost two or three decades. The bar to entry is low sure, but to ever have a shot at the crown I've got to invest significant time and effort into a sport I might not even want to do in order to get a position that doesn't even really need to be affiliated with that sport. What if in order to be KEM you had to be an Archery Marshal? What if in order to get a job in law you had to play water polo? It's just a weird set of requirements in order to get something that's only partially related to the job itself.
Your arguments are completely non-sensical. All of the examples you listed have long-standing rules and requirements to participate and all of them exclude lots of people who can't meet them... including some the same exclusions crown tournament would have!
Crown tournament is (allegedly at least) supposed to be the SCA version of a "championship" and the reward is becoming king/queen. Its been that way _since the beginning_ and its always been heavy fighting. An argument could be made to alternate rapier/heavy, because they are both "fighting" styles.
However, if you need a direct comparison, boxers don't get to go join the UFC and tell mma fighters they can't grapple or kick because its "unfair" the boxer doesn't have those skills... its a completely different club with different requirements and rules, and yeah, sometimes that excludes some people. _Get over it_.
A huge problem we have with society right now and why everyone is so angry is that we keep forcing inclusion(and before you go with the obvious I don't mean race/sex/orientation,etc, if you are physically capable you should not be excluded based on those obvious factors) into every single thing to the detriment of that thing. Some things by their nature _need_ to exclude some people, or they can't function at all. Its absurd that people are in here suggesting changing the foundational way kings and queens are chosen so what? People in a wheel chair can compete? Yeah, it sucks they are in a wheel chair and can't compete to become king/queen. Oh well. Are they also going to go complain to the NFL that there are no wheel chair bound tackle football players? Do you see how absurd that sounds?
If the SCA changes to non-combat for crown tournament you may as well just close it down, because its not the SCA anymore, its a completely new, different club that's experienced a hostile take-over by loud people who don't want to achieve that right within the rules so have to change the entire legacy of the club to fit their needs. By all means, go ahead though.
I mean, some things need to exclude certain people, sure. Hard to be a welder without arms, I get that. But I don't think the crown of any given kingdom needs to be that exclusionary, nor is there any good reason for it to be other than traditional values. What part of actually being king requires you to be an upper echelon armored fighter, beyond winning the tournament to get there? What benefit does being a good armored fighter bestow specifically that means that ONLY they can be fit for the throne? So far, I've not seen a good answer to that question besides tradition.
To your MMA Point. A better comparison would be the MMA not allowing boxers to compete at all then saying that the boxers need to learn BJJ, which is the traditional MMA art, in order to play MMA. Then only the winner of the most recent MMA tournament, which is really BJJ right, gets to make the rules that govern the regional UFC franchise for 6 months. I mean, how would you feel about McGregor making the financial decisions for the UFC? Or cultural ones?
Plus, regarding your final paragraph, people said the SCA would die with Rapier, and all that's done is increase retention and recruitment. I doubt the crown change would significantly alter the culture or appeal of the SCA and turn it into something new.
I mean.. anyone can enter the NFL draft too, doesn't mean every player makes a list of potential draftees.
The only requirements I'm aware of for my Kingdom were participate in a certain amount of events(I think it was 7 or more) and be an active SCA member who is authorized to fight in every heavy form... not a laundry list of requirements if you ask me.
I mean maybe in some kingdoms there is some secret list of requirements and half the potential field is being left out.. but at least in my kingdom they are letting anyone who is prepared to win participate.
The point is that it is up to a whim. A literal Royal Whim. They can make it all their friends if they want. And because the rules are basically “The Crown can do what they want,” they sometimes do abuse that. And after 50-odd years, people are tired of dealing with CTE-addled stick-jocks running shit all the time.
Then why don't "people" go start their own club with their own rules and tournaments that aren't run by "stick jocks"....
Literally nothing stopping them from playing a different game. People don't enter a baseball tournament and complain they aren't playing football.
And now you’ve discovered the retention problem. Which is quietly panicking people in the Society.
And folks like you literally pushing people out the door with a “good riddance” is not exactly what they want you to be doing. So nice work. You want the SCA to die a slow, or perhaps less-slow death by attrition? Keep it up.
And quote me correctly: “CTE-addled stick jocks.”
Clubs go out of fashion every day. The SCA doesn't need to last forever. People make it their entire personality but its just a fun club/sport.. if it dies, something new will take its place. The SCA can literally half its current membership and still be bigger than pretty much every other LARP out there.
>Then why don't "people" go start their own club with their own rules and tournaments that aren't run by "stick jocks"....
Because for a lot of people in the SCA, due to the organisation's size, it's possible to spend 99% of your time simply not interacting with the heavy fighting community in any capacity. (The 1% includes attending royal courts, or sitting near someone talking about their on-field experiences at a feast). For a lot of people, they joined the SCA because of the other stuff that was far more interesting to them.
And, as others have noted, being an inspiring leader, competent public speaker, and competent administrator, are all excellent skills to have as the figurehead of an organisation's regional chapter. And none of those skills are being directly tested via tournament fighting. So why not broaden the pool of possible figureheads, to have the best chance of kingdoms and principalities being led by inspirational, entertaining, and compassionate royalty?
The SCA game has changed thousands of times over the decades. We've added awards structures, and updated them. We've added Peerages, and updated them. We've allowed more and different activities, and updated them. We've changed rules on everything from event fees, to armor standards, to who can be an officer, how Baronages are chosen, who can head a Barony, and even who can be Crown and Consort.
There is no reason not to change the game for how Crown and Consort are chosen as well.
So you're saying that only people who can and want to fight heavy should join the SCA because that's how you become crown? Because apparently in your eyes, heavy is the only activity the society does?
There aren't other games to play for people who want a living history/historical larp that marries with the chance to study historic sword fighting, or study the various arts & sciences. Other than the Not-CA, show me another group that even attempts what the SCA is.
I’ve already done that.
But! I do think you’re on to the best idea for why we should change things - we’re supposed to be an educational non-profit. I’m not sure how a fairly ahistorical method of monarch selection is in line with our fulfillment of our stated mission.
Unless the SCA is actually just a LARP which LARPs as an educational organization.
Larps have point systems. The SCA doesn't. We are going to open up Crown to other contests and it will be so much better. The old dukes, the ones who have won Crown eight times or more, can teach classes on how to be monarchs if they like. I wouldn't expect much content in such a class, but why not?
The SCA is more like running a simulation with certain parameters. We're just finally adjusting the parameters slightly. It's not affirmative action, heavy fighters can stop crying.
It's not points though. Might as well line up alphabetically. Or by number of years in the SCA or by amount of finger-loop braiding. It's meaningless. Edit: I can never win enough points to become a monarch. It's retroactive in a way. It's OOP and $3.50 gets me a fancy coffee. My persona isn't capped at Level 50. It's not the same as points...why not just...not get in line?
Dude you are absolutely adorable in your ideas of how heavy fighting is so inclusive and the system shouldn't change. Do you know how often it is still said to this day by fighters that a woman can't hit them hard enough to take a shot? Or how many crown tournaments are won cleanly enough that there's not a question on if the winner didn't blow off a shot? I've been playing for 12 years now and I have yet to see a crown tournament that didn't have at least a few people claiming they saw a shot land that was called light. I'm not saying fencing is better or worse than heavy fighting but, dude, lose the belief that heavy fighting is perfect and why don't the fencers just authorize in heavy. Is anyone expecting the BoD to actually approve this variance? I doubt it. But does that mean it's not worth a shot? Absolutely not.
Change is one of the few inevitable things in this world and if you think our game hasn't changed in almost 60 years, I can get you some carpet armor and a freon can for you to wear.
Here's some numbers for you (that are in the full proposal but just in case you didn't read it). There are approximately 465 heavy fighters in the East Kingdom (which has approximately 2000-2500 members). The last crown tournament had 37 and the last K&Q rattan had 37 as well. The fencing program in the East has 332 authorized fencers and the last K&Q rapier had 66 (and that's with the tournament being in the very corner of the kingdom). Several of the past rapier champs have been over 80 and have continued to have just about the same number of people as crown tournament and rattan champs combined.
Here's my question for you, why not a rapier crown? Why don't the heavy fighters just authorize in heavy fighting the same way fencers can authorize in heavy? Got any reasons other than "because this is how it's always been done?" Why are you so afraid of this possible change?
Skill issue. Learn technique and you'll hit hard enough. If you're a spectator, your opinion literally doesn't matter if you think the shot was rhino'd. It is between the combatants to be adults and talk it out.
I’ve never said heavy fighting is perfect, I’m honestly a fan of counted blows by independent judges. Any system which relies on the “honor” of the participants **who really want to win** is inherently suspect, no matter their gender, size, or category.
As far as reasons to maintain the tradition of heavy fighting being the only path to Crown? Because of the tradition of the game which, once again, does not prevent anyone from entering as the fighter or consort.
Can’t fight because of a medical reason? Be the consort.
Don’t want to fight but still want to be Crown? Be the consort.
A fair amount of the discussions seem to only center on the fighter and makes me feel as though the consort is viewed as the lesser half. Considering how much time, effort, and energy consorts put into Reigns, I find such implications to be very disrespectful. Add in that most of the consorts over the years have been fellow women and the unconscious misogyny becomes far more pronounced.
You can't just *choose* to be a consort. It doesn't work that way. The fighter is the one who ultimately decides who their consort is, so you can only be the consort *with someone else's permission*.
That's a **substantial** part of the problem. Indeed, it's probably *most* of the problem. The consort is not "lesser," but the consort is not an open path to the crown. It's a path that is, quite literally, invite-only - which in turn creates a dynamic where a fighter can look for someone who will just go along with their ideas.
There are plenty of powerful consorts who command respect. However, every single consort requires the *institutional permission of fighters* in order to reign. How you don't see that as an **obvious** power disparity and an **obvious** element of institutionalized misogyny is beyond me.
While occasionally people choose someone as a business partnership to be consort, it's generally a romantic partner. So choosing to sleep with the right hot stick, while historic, is not the solution you're presenting. Particularly given the majority of fighters want a woman as consort. The misogyny isn't unconscious - it's right out there in the open.
What is wrong with the idea? Yes, anyone can be consort if they make a deal with a fighter -- or at least have a chance to be consort. But that really still negates those who have a desire to do it themselves, for no really good reason. Does the idea of not having a heavy fighter on the throne bother you personally? After all, by your own statement, even as a heavy fighter, you don't have much chance of winning a crown tournament.
The way it is now, and has been for 58 years, there's a very small group of fighters who generally control each kingdom. We get people winning crown eight, nine, ten times -- and frankly,it doesn't matter who that is, it gets old.
The SCA is rapidly aging, and we aren't especially good at being inclusive. The fact that for 58 years the fighters have been the face of the society, overwhelmingly male, and a very high percentage of those men Caucasian is one big reason. If we don't change the perception and the reality, the SCA won't be around another 30 years.
Diversity is more than skin color, sexual orientation, gender presentation, religion, sex, nationality.
It's also experiences.
Currently all the potential Sovereigns are necessarily linked with the heavy fighting community. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. But it tends to restrict their view of the entire SCA. Why not have people who's view of the SCA is, if not broader, then at least *different* than that?
Entering isn't the issue, winning is.
>It seems to me that people just want a better shot at winning and to use their own special focus to do it (rapier, archery, arts, etc.).
Yes, just as heavy fighters want a better shot at winning and to use their own special focus to do it.
Please do not pretend as if heavy fighters do no art or service or dabble in rapier. We'll have 21 to 1 of heavy fighters that do art winning a laurel crown versus laurels that do armored win an armored crown.
>Please do not pretend as if heavy fighters do no art or service or dabble in rapier.
No idea where you get that from my comment. A lot of heavy fighters would likely crush in rapier due to their physical capabilities, if they focused on it. The OP's argument was just silly.
>We'll have 21 to 1 of heavy fighters that do art winning a laurel crown versus laurels that do armored win an armored crown.
There are definitely heavy fighters that could win an A&S crown and it would likely be easier for anyone (including fighters) to win an A&S crown than a heavy fighting crown because an A&S crown is more accessible to the average person, despite physical limitations, age, etc...
I don't favor an A&S crown, even if as it would favor those with a academic skills and education, as well as those able to fund big, expensive projects - a different set of physical and mental limitations. It is also very subjective and lends itself to favoritism and voting for the person instead of the entry. I say that, despite knowing that I am exactly the kind of person who could kick ass in an A&S crown, as I have a rare skill set, an academic background, the funds, and the patience required to do the sort of big projects that would win.
It has nothing to do with people ‘wanting a better shot at crown’.
It has to do with the fact that, since heavy fighting is the only way to get crowned king or queen, heavy fighting gets the vast majority of attention from the royals, which hurts many other activities in the SCA.
Hell, west kingdom lost almost their entire rapier fighting community because we had a king a while back who hated rapier and did everything he could to shut it down. If people knew the next crown was a rapier tournament, it would prevent something like that from happening.
This also encourages people to interact with more communities. If you know that your field isn’t going to have a crown tournament for the next three years, you might start looking at getting involved in the other fields.
As for your examples, you know that is a bad faith argument. While those groups are not prevented from entering, the vast majority of them are not given support, or even actively discouraged from participating. The only way they could ever reign is by having friends who are heavy fighters, which turns crown into a competition about who you know, and not about recognizing skill.
I got into the SCA for the fencing. Right after purchasing my two schlager rapiers and finding a fencing mask, Jade and his queen Juana Isabella banned fencing, called fencers “thugs and thieves,” and said they would keep winning Crown and banning fencing until it stuck.
Just for fun, look up the song Ban the Fencers. Used to be a favorite of Sir Kielson here in Oertha. The knights up here used to be very pro-fencing.
I also recall the An Tir war crown, in which the winner was chosen in a field battle. I loved that idea. People could have a say in the final round by fighting for the one they liked best.
I love that rapier is so much more acceptable now. I might never put on armor again.
One of the great things about SCA combat (both armored and C&T) is that the loser decides the winner, not judges. I cannot foresee a way to come close to that for A&S or service type competitions.
(And the fact that you separate bardic from A&S raises the point of how finely grained should this be? Should equestrians have a crown? What about potters?)
Wasn’t the king. It was the queen. King more or less didn’t give af about rapier, one way or the other. The Queen, however, had beef dating back to the early days when the rapier community used to blatantly use the SCA for the insurance policy and the flout the rest of the stuff that went along with the SCA. This is *ancient* dirt, going back over 50 years at this point and there are still enough people active in the West who remember it.
Not saying she was right to ban rapier in the West 30 years ago. Just saying there’s some *history* and it wasn’t on the King’s end.
Said queen ended up being my laurel, after I wrote a huge screed against her and the whole Pennsic accord fiasco as Bard of Cynagua, lol. I love her to bits, but she's never, ever going to budge on the rapier issue.
That said, the SCA has moved on from a lot of that crap. The dregs of it are still there, but the further we get from it, the less it matters.
Why do you assume I’m making a bad faith argument? Everything I said about eligibility is accurate and folks are actively encouraged to enter Crown Tournament.
If someone is being excluded from entering for a discriminatory reason, it needs to be elevated to the Seneschal and/or higher.
And, like I said, just because people are *technically* allowed to compete does not mean that the competition is fair.
Women constantly get told that they shouldn’t do heavy, and are rarely ever given any support by knights or more senior members of the community because they are seen as ‘too weak’ to compete.
It’s not like people are stealing their shit, but minority groups have to work substantially harder to get the same recognition as people who just happen to be white males who are 6’+.
Opening up crown helps to soften some of those barriers, and makes it much harder for crown to just be a club, where the same four people win crown every year.
It also help recognize some of the people who are doing exceptional things in the SCA. There are a lot of SCA activities that don’t have any official awards or recognition for them, often because they have never had a crown who was interested in their activity.
By expanding the group of people who are eligible for crown, you increase the ability for people to be recognized for great work, and decrease the ability for bad actors to fuck things up.
…I bet if you asked her if women receive the same support as men in heavy, she would also tell you no
I know personally several female fighters, and all of them have talked about the lack of support for female fighters.
I suggest you talk to people in these groups, I think you would be surprised how bad it is.
Good for them, have you asked them if women are given the same level of support and respect as men (in heavy combat)? Cause if you don’t ask them they sure as hell won’t tell you.
Duchess Kaylah is the exception that proves the rule. There are two Crown tournaments a year per kingdom, for a total of 40 winners per year. A representative sample of winners shouldn't have precisely two women in it, almost 30 years apart.
We're all pretty well aware that there are more women in harness than that indicates. Hell, roughly 10% of the Chiv is female as I recall, but strangely those belted fighters don't seem to get a lot of crowns...
You're right - it IS about having a better shot at crown. Why should someone be forced to have to pursue an activity that they either have no interest in, or a low chance of ever being good at in order to be crown? The number of people with the chance to win a crown tourney relative to active population of our kingdoms is incredibly tiny. We need better leadership, we need more diverse leadership.
I am an aspiring heavy fighter, And I support expanding the formats for Crown even though I am actively interested in Heavy.
I get your point- Crown is always going to be highly exclusive because ultimately, only two people can be “it” at a time, and, as long as the format is some kind of competition, it will be restricted to the people at the highest levels of that skill. And yes, anyone can get authorized in Heavy and I am a big advocate for making the rattan community more open and welcoming so more people feel empowered and excited to try it out.
At the same time, not everyone needs to be interested in heavy. It’s just one thing the SCA is about, and Crown is the most visible office in the SCA. The SCA is not entirely or mostly focused on heavy fighting, so it doesn’t make sense to me that the only way to achieve the most visible office should be heavy combat. Rapier is an easy first step because it can have an identical tournament format, so the least number of changes are necessary.
Also, as you are probably aware, heavy and rapier have overlapping skills, and being knowledgeable at one is likely to help you on the other, they are very different fighting styles, so it’s not as easy as telling fencers to pick up rattan any more than it would be telling rattan fighters to just pick up a rapier.
Furthermore, there are no outright restrictions on, for example, disabled people entering Crown. But like, if you have a disability that means getting thwacked with weapons is dangerous (e.g. on blood thinners for a clot, bleeding disorder), then you are effectively prevented from the competition. The discussion of POC, women, and gender minorities is more complicated because it speaks to wider culture issues that won’t be solved just by making other types of competitions for Crown. (Not that there aren’t wider culture issues for disabled people, just that “some disabilities literally mean it would be impossible for someone to fight heavy” is a clear cut answer here)
Ah, the, "any change to the heavy-wins-Crown system is affirmative action that will only lead to reverse discrimination" argument. This came up when Atlantia didn't have any female knights, too. Pepperidge Farm remembers.
I don’t do rattan, not out of some girlish dislike of getting hit (I joust jftr) but because it simply doesn’t interest me. I’ve authorized, fought in both tournaments and field battles but it’s not my thing. It’s certainly not something I would spend my off hours practicing— so yes, winning a rattan tournament isn’t something that will ever happen for me.
I’m hardly alone. The majority of SCA participants aren’t active heavy fighters. Elevating one of those activities over all the others doesn’t reflect the current demographics and interests of our club.
Last two EK crowns have been won by not taking legit hits.
EK is considering changing to fencing for the next crown.
And I hope it passes. Tired of seeing honorable knights/fighters lose to this kind of play in heavy list.
Please show me the crown non-calls in fencing on YouTube please.
Ego is rampant, obviously.
However Heavy List favors a certain type of person and fencing allows for a wider berth.
Not everyone can actually safely even enter crown. I suffer from a medical condition where my joints are too flexible and routinely dislocate for no reason. All it would take would for one good hard blow to land wrong, to do permanent, irreversible damage to a shoulder or hand. That risk is far lower in rapier, and might be nonexistent for other formats. I'm sure I'm not thr only one in this position.
I wouldn't say less-than, I've seen plenty of times where the consort was the driving force of the reign. The issues with being consort is that it still puts heavy fighters as being in the sole position to determine who can be consort, and that the huge majority of consorts are partners or family. That means my best chance to become a consort is to seduce a fighter, and I don't think there's a huge pool of fighters who are into bears. My wife probably wouldn't be crazy about that plan either.
You don't have to have an IRL romantic relationship between the Crowns. I'm about to enter Crown Tourney as consort to a man who is most definitely married to someone else. Your pool is not 'fighters into bears' but 'fighters who think you'd be a good Consort'.
Obviously there is no requirement for the sovereign and consort to be romantically together... but in the 6 years I've been playing every king and queen of the Midrealm have been married couples. Of the \~30 couples who entered the last crown, I only know of two who were just friends. It happens, but it's rare, and as other people have mentioned it still puts heavy fighters in the position of choosing who can reign.
Funny, East and Atlantia have several kings who make queens - or duchesses. Well, maybe that guy with the Reigns spreadsheet will shed some light on the situation.
As many other commenters have stated…
Why not give it a chance?
There’s comments being made about consorts…
A consort is chosen by a fighter, they are chosen for a number of reasons!
1. Shared ideas
2. Support
3. Relationship (NOT NECESSARILY ROMANTIC)
You don’t just GET to be a consort.
Making the avenue to crown (for most commonly female presenting people) strictly through someone else.
This chance of a change opens the access to the crown more OPEN to more people!
Bringing modern inclusion and diversity to our game that could really use!
I think a better question is: why are you upset about this?
I personally have a much higher chance of winning a rattan Crown than a rapier Crown, but I'm still in favor of having a rapier Crown now and then.
I'm not in favor of other variant Crown formats, due to participation size and judging issues. However, as the East's FAQ says, swapping rattan for rapier is very straightforward and should fit well into the existing structure of the Society.
I'm with you, and I'm genuinely excited to see the East Kingdom make this work. It's clear, it's straightforward, it's a minor change in wording that will make a big difference to an awful lot of people. Go East!
One day old account asks pestering bad-faith questions about Crown?
You're just here to make noise. If you actually cared about this topic, you'd be well-versed in this conversation already.
What if the one day old account is pretty well versed in the question but only feels comfortable asking it because of online harassment she’s seen other people go through for doing the same?
I dunno, if a large majority of people in my social club said "you're an asshole" to someone else expressing an opinion I hold, I might consider whether or not *I'm also an asshole*.
That whole self-reflection thing is hard.
Some people just don’t want to fight heavy.
I personally don’t mind the existence of heavy fighting in the SCA, but it’s not really what personally interests me. Honestly, for me it’s all about the A&S, historical recreation side of things. But everyone’s different and that’s okay!
I’m a non-binary fencer, for context before I begin. I don’t really understand the nature of your argument. There’s a lot of things that would keep somebody from entering as a fighter or a consort. I don’t really think they need to be listed, right? Health, interest, relationships…
I’ll admit that - probably like you - I’m not a huge fan of elements of this debate because it can turn into “let’s all bash the heavy fighters,” which is shitty. Being Crown is an expensive, hard, often miserable 6-9 months with an incredible personal toll and I’m not sure I’d ever personally put myself up for it. I respect the hell out of anyone who manages a reign gracefully. I’d like it if we could have these discussions without throwing heavies under the bus. I think they’re as likely to be inclusive and supportive as anybody else in the SCA and certainly I’ve gotten a shitton of training and motivation support from heavies in my kingdom - and I don’t even fight heavy.
Now, that said, for many kingdoms it just makes more sense to open up to rapier every now and again because that’s what people are up to a bit more these days. Things change. Demographics shift. And is it bad to want a better shot at winning using your own special focus? Is it bad to want to win? Is it bad to want to be the Crown? I don’t think so. I don’t think it’s a shameful thing to be ambitious and aspire for glory, is it?
I don’t think anyone wants to steal the culture of the SCA away from anybody. There is so much lineage and history and emotion behind everything the heavies do to prepare for Crown. I just think we can probably add to that without taking anything away by taking turns from time to time, in kingdoms where that makes sense.
None of that is bad except the first part: "your own special focus"
Rapier and armored are both different fighting disciplines. One is definitely harder than the other. Therefore, changing to an easier fighting form for crown cheapens the contest.
I fight Rapier; it's my passion since I was little and didn't know SCA was a thing (My Dad thought Zorro was cool, so I thought Zorro was cool). I have yet to be a consort for Crown because no one wants to fight for me.
I do not, and cannot, fight in Crown as a heavy fighter because I am on blood thinners. Oddly, my Dr has OK'd Rapier so I stick to that. It also doesn't help that I cannot find a Heavy Helm that fits without a LOT of padding, which would make the helm too heavy and uncomfortable to wear. So I do my best to support the heavy community in what little way they care for me to.
I have the time to be Crown. I have the money to be Crown. I have the Honking Huge Truck for all the Stuff.
I do not have the Support. So I do not fight in Crown.
I have many friends; the ones that are active heavy fighters have their own consorts already so asking a consort to step aside is rude.
I noticed your account was brand new, for this thread maybe? You seem to have a lot to say, why not say it on your original account instead of making a masked one?
Well if rapier is too easy for you the only logical solution is to install turn the crown tournament into one of those American ninja warrior obstacle courses.
This is a good faith answer to a good faith question
I made this reply in my Kingdom FB group that is discussing this topic, and I think my comments are valid here, so sharing.
The question was posed, in similar bad faith to this OP:
What about the SCA, it's rules. history, culture, whatever, is important to you? What elements would you want to protect and preserve?
I answered the following:
To answer your question - everything. Everything is important. That is where I think there may be a deeper misunderstanding on where someone in my position is coming at this development versus the position you are taking.
Again, everything is important, to everyone. Including the highest offices in our game, the Crown. Where I think we depart is that I see very little issue in opening up the opportunity to compete for that office to another group of people that are equally as invested in our game. In fact, I think that it perhaps would invigorate many people to become more involved and would raise the skill bar for Rapier combat as a whole.
Consider what would actually change if this proposal were to be adopted. Personally I see two things - The weapons used in Crown, and the pool of people competing. Truly nothing else. Even then, no one is submitting to completely replace Armored combat Crown tournaments. At worst, I'd advocate for perhaps a 2 armored, 1 rapier schedule. If the submission were to be completely eliminating armored crowns, I would flatly, COMPLETELY be against this. Thats not what is being asked for.
You mention previously that you believe Rapier fighters to not be qualified to speak on heavy issues such as War negotiations and scenario building. Do you believe current Crowns do not lean on subject matter experts for those topics when it comes to Rapier scenarios? Why do you believe that it would not be possible for someone who specializes in Rapier to similarly lean on experts and friends on the Armored side?
It is somewhat concerning to me that your position is doom and gloom if a new Crown coming from the Rapier field were to be elevated. What would be the difference between a first time Armored Crown and a first time Rapier Crown? Do they not develop a number of people around them that give them support? Would the people that have held the position previously not offer their council?
Entering isn’t the issue.
The fact is, everyone who enters Crown Tourney has the potential to win and become crown, and you MUST be prepared for that eventuality.
(Seriously. Legend tells of one CT where half the entrants got food poisoning and had to withdraw, and a Newcomer won)
Winning crown means a commitment of 6-9 months of your life, being the face of the Kingdom, plenty of paperwork and travel.
Not everyone is up to that.
No matter who wins crown it requires a 6 to 9 to really 12 month commitment and also a lot of money. Lot of people can't do that but it doesn't matter what those people are good at, they're not in a position to make the personal sacrifices to sit on the throne no matter what it is they're good at that they might win at if the tournament was in that thing. If that makes any sense?
This person is an alt asking bad faith questions. Don't feed the troll.
If crown was fought with rapier, instead of by armored fighters, then what would stop the inverse of this from happening? If crown was purely rapier oriented would you authorize, fight, and get good enough at rapier in order to win crown? As you said yourself, there's no barrier to fighting. What if crown was determined by a fashion show, with professional judges who picked the most well done/accurate garb? Sewing is very accessible. If youre not good at either of these activities then you could always be a consort and have somebody else win the tournament for you I suppose. The main thing people bring up in these conversations is that it's not entirely fair that one activity gets to dictate who goes on the throne. It's got nothing to do with the accessibility of armored combat. A lot of the people I talk to about it just think it's unfair that armored, and by necessity prowess in armored combat, is the ONLY method to the throne. I think a better question here is why should armored combat be the only way we decide a crown.
Exactly, I think opening up crown to other activities would be a huge boost to them. Imagine if there was an equestrian tournament for crown! Equestrian is such a cool activity, but because it is uncommon, and doesn’t really have any awards or recognition (as far as I’m aware) it generally gets shunted off and forgotten. I do think that arts and sciences are problematic to make a part of crown, mostly due to the difficulty in making the winner objective. I feel like that would turn into a popularity contest fairly quickly, but for everything else it could really encourage people to step out of their current activities and try something new.
Cost barrier to entering equestrian is very high.
Yes and no. Cost barrier eventually is very high, but you can begin participating and actually ride for very little. Helmet and heeled boots, get some basic riding lessons. Then coming to practices and events, authorizing and ground crewing and you can usually come to arrangements for horse use at events. If you get hooked, then you can worry about the investment. Now tell me that heavy is a cheap investment. Or that being Crown isn’t hideously expensive all on its own. Also: Do it on a real account, you coward.
While I’m at it, OP is a coward, too. Sock puppet bullshit.
Great way to make the society look appealing! Let's see your courage, post your details, name and location before posting and passing judgement on another. Oh wait, you won't.
Not a whole lot of baronies have loaner horses.
Armored should be the only way to decide crown because it is the greatest journey you can undertake in order to sit in the highest figurehead position in the game. Technically speaking, any armored thug good at fighting can win crown. They do not. The weight of the crown necessitates that the winner has a volunteer job for 4-6 months, so they'd better be into the culture of the SCA. The result is that people who tend to win crowns have deep roots in the game. That means typically peers win crown. Knights. Knight culture has all the eyes of the SCA on it because it is typically where your sovereigns come from. You can not be a knight if all you do is fight armored, which is their area of prowess. In the words of Duke Sean, you have to be well-rounded and be able to create the SCA anywhere you go. That means knights need to have some artform, some courtly graces, some service greater than that of a spectator. Tell me, which peerage demands that you do SOME combat, let alone armored combat, in order to be considered? None of the non-fighting peerages. Which brings us to rapier. It is a fun game. It is a different game. It does require skill, and it does require knowledge and training. It is not equivalent to armored fighting. Rapier is like washing your hands compared to armored, which is a plunge in the ice-cold bath. The conversion from armored fighter to rapier fighter is less difficult than the conversion from rapier fighter to armored fighter. It is a different game, so you won't often see armored going into a rapier fight and whipping mods right away, but it is an easier game. It would take less time to adapt to rapier than to armored. This is an undeniable truth. It can be measured. And anecdotally, everyone knows old armored fighters who still want to fight, so they switch to rapier because it is easier on their bodies. It's what they can do. As someone who does both, I'll never get excited to watch a rapier match over an armored match. There's just less going on. And again, the cultures are entirely different. You go through a different journey, and it can change who you are as a person. I argue that the journey to reach the top of armored fighting is a more fulfilling one than rapier. Just my experience. // For me, the crown will feel cheapened if I don't win it by right of arms. Armored combat. Perhaps I never will either. Honestly, I wouldn't really care if they rotated crown between each domain of the SCA. Armored melees and tourneys will still be the peak SCA experience. The highest adrenaline rush you can have in the game. But you asked why armored should decide crown.
I'm just gonna match you paragraph for paragraph here in order to address your points in order. Greatest journey is subjective. For some people A&S could be the greatest journey in the SCA, or bardic could be. You sound like you had a transcendental experience fighting armored, which is cool, but what if I think Rapier is the greatest journey and should be the only way to determine a crown? This isn't really an argument for crown being only fought by armored combatants, it's just how you justify the exclusive right of the crown to be only fought for by armored combatants based on your preference of game. Armored thugs win crowns all the time, and make good or bad kings depending on their ability to be a leader, and their knowledge of the game. Sure knights tend to win crown more often, usually a small group of less than 10 passing it between themselves. But when they all decide to not fight for it we get thugs, sometimes for multiple years. And I can tell you with 100% certainty that their armored combat ability does not transfer to their leadership skills. Their leadership ability, bad or good, is entirely independent from their fighting ability, and I don't believe that armored combat makes a king a good or bad king. Knight culture is related to crown sure, mainly because crowns can only be armored folks, but you don't have to be a knight to be a crown. Again, seen multiple thugs be crowns who were nowhere near a knighting. Also every peer has to be involved in the SCA pretty deeply in order to be a peer. You think the MoD just sits around doing rapier? No way, they go out and participate in the other sectors of the SCA just like the knights do. There's no difference between them and their engagement in the SCA. Being a good fighter still doesn't make you a good leader. It just makes you a good fighter thrust into a leadership position. Also, just because knights tend to win crown often doesn't mean that only knights win crown. This example entirely depends on a knight winning crown, and not some random armored thug. That's, just like, your opinion man. I get you like armored more but damn, saying that armored is superior to rapier is just personal preference, which is fine but entirely irrelevant when it comes to fairness. Still an opinion. We have two armored fighters that fight rapier at my practice as well. One guy got injured in armor and decided to try rapier because he could do it one handed while he recovered. He told me it was way more complicated than armored, and that he had a way tougher time getting into rapier than armored because of the difficulty. Also the knight at our practice has told me it's easier to get good at armored than it is to get good at rapier, so now that's my two anecdotal stories to your one. Old armored fighters go into rapier sure. But they generally don't become MoDs or even climb higher than an AoA. Also the reason is because rapier uses different muscle groups in different ways, meaning less strain on damaged areas from armored. I know a guy that has trouble walking, but can still do rapier footwork fine because it's a different set of muscles for movement. Again, irrelevant to why armored should be the only way to pick a crown. That's still just your preference. And preference ain't a good way to determine fairness. And I think the rapier journey is more fulfilling. I'm not sure why a more fulfilling journey should be a measure of fairness, especially when that is a highly subjective measurement. Its like saying you want a coal miner to be president over an iron miner because mining coal could give you the black lung so it build character. Not to mention mining doesn't mean you understand foreign policy or domestic law. // I agree. It's why I don't want to win it by "just" being a consort. I like to do things with my own two hands and make my dreams happen for myself. I realize I could be a consort, and do have friends that would put me in the throne if I asked. But why can't a rapier fighter put themselves in the throne if they want to? Why can't they even have a chance to do it themselves in their greatest journey? Thanks for your response. I genuinely believe the OP, and even that other guy who responded to me, are coming from genuine places. These conversations are important, And will only become more common as more rapier fighters join the game over time.
This is a pretty easy question to answer: because this is the game. People know about it when they sign up and it’s not some secret. If they don’t like the rules or structure, there are dozens of other games to play. It’s very similar to playing football, not liking the rules, and insisting they change the rules to match baseball halfway through.
That first paragraph you have there may be a point, but games have changed plenty of times in the past in order to be more or less restrictive either for safety standards or for in terms of fairness. Using baseball, there was a point in time where only white folks were allowed to play baseball in the major league. That ended in '47 with Jackie Robinson, and marked a huge step forward for the MLB in terms of fairness to black baseball players. Note that this change was done in the name of fairness, and giving more athletes a shot at playing in the major leagues. Granted, the difference between Armored Combat and Rapier is less important than racial issues in baseball, but I think my analogy works a bit better. It's not about changing the rules of the game, it's more about opening up the opportunity to more people who otherwise might not have it.
You have the opportunity no matter your race creed gender or any other arbitrary trait. Either go train or go make friends.
Except that literally everyone is allowed to compete in crown(well there are so prerequisites kn parricipation for some.kingdoms) as long as you authorize. Nobody is being specifically excluded.
People are excluded though. They're excluded through the skill ceiling of Armored being high, or the limited availability of high level Armored fighters for them to be a consort for. Multiple people in this thread have brought up how they're excluded due to medical reasons, others in my kingdom are excluded based on lack of available teachers or lack of an armored community at all to practice with. Just because it's not specific doesn't mean it's not exclusion. This is like saying that only people who play golf should be allowed to be president, and that you need to win a PGA in order to be president. Yeah sure I could get a set of cheap clubs and give it a shot, but I've got to out shoot Tiger Woods to even have a chance, not to mention the other golf lifers that have been multiple PGA champs for almost two or three decades. The bar to entry is low sure, but to ever have a shot at the crown I've got to invest significant time and effort into a sport I might not even want to do in order to get a position that doesn't even really need to be affiliated with that sport. What if in order to be KEM you had to be an Archery Marshal? What if in order to get a job in law you had to play water polo? It's just a weird set of requirements in order to get something that's only partially related to the job itself.
Literally "skill issue"
Your arguments are completely non-sensical. All of the examples you listed have long-standing rules and requirements to participate and all of them exclude lots of people who can't meet them... including some the same exclusions crown tournament would have! Crown tournament is (allegedly at least) supposed to be the SCA version of a "championship" and the reward is becoming king/queen. Its been that way _since the beginning_ and its always been heavy fighting. An argument could be made to alternate rapier/heavy, because they are both "fighting" styles. However, if you need a direct comparison, boxers don't get to go join the UFC and tell mma fighters they can't grapple or kick because its "unfair" the boxer doesn't have those skills... its a completely different club with different requirements and rules, and yeah, sometimes that excludes some people. _Get over it_. A huge problem we have with society right now and why everyone is so angry is that we keep forcing inclusion(and before you go with the obvious I don't mean race/sex/orientation,etc, if you are physically capable you should not be excluded based on those obvious factors) into every single thing to the detriment of that thing. Some things by their nature _need_ to exclude some people, or they can't function at all. Its absurd that people are in here suggesting changing the foundational way kings and queens are chosen so what? People in a wheel chair can compete? Yeah, it sucks they are in a wheel chair and can't compete to become king/queen. Oh well. Are they also going to go complain to the NFL that there are no wheel chair bound tackle football players? Do you see how absurd that sounds? If the SCA changes to non-combat for crown tournament you may as well just close it down, because its not the SCA anymore, its a completely new, different club that's experienced a hostile take-over by loud people who don't want to achieve that right within the rules so have to change the entire legacy of the club to fit their needs. By all means, go ahead though.
I mean, some things need to exclude certain people, sure. Hard to be a welder without arms, I get that. But I don't think the crown of any given kingdom needs to be that exclusionary, nor is there any good reason for it to be other than traditional values. What part of actually being king requires you to be an upper echelon armored fighter, beyond winning the tournament to get there? What benefit does being a good armored fighter bestow specifically that means that ONLY they can be fit for the throne? So far, I've not seen a good answer to that question besides tradition. To your MMA Point. A better comparison would be the MMA not allowing boxers to compete at all then saying that the boxers need to learn BJJ, which is the traditional MMA art, in order to play MMA. Then only the winner of the most recent MMA tournament, which is really BJJ right, gets to make the rules that govern the regional UFC franchise for 6 months. I mean, how would you feel about McGregor making the financial decisions for the UFC? Or cultural ones? Plus, regarding your final paragraph, people said the SCA would die with Rapier, and all that's done is increase retention and recruitment. I doubt the crown change would significantly alter the culture or appeal of the SCA and turn it into something new.
It’s like you don’t know that there’s a list that has to get approved to participate in Crown Tourney. Or *maybe* you’re a bad faith troll…
I mean.. anyone can enter the NFL draft too, doesn't mean every player makes a list of potential draftees. The only requirements I'm aware of for my Kingdom were participate in a certain amount of events(I think it was 7 or more) and be an active SCA member who is authorized to fight in every heavy form... not a laundry list of requirements if you ask me. I mean maybe in some kingdoms there is some secret list of requirements and half the potential field is being left out.. but at least in my kingdom they are letting anyone who is prepared to win participate.
The point is that it is up to a whim. A literal Royal Whim. They can make it all their friends if they want. And because the rules are basically “The Crown can do what they want,” they sometimes do abuse that. And after 50-odd years, people are tired of dealing with CTE-addled stick-jocks running shit all the time.
“CTE-addled stick-jocks” that sounds pretty damn ableist you limp noodle.
Good point. I apologize and retract.
Then why don't "people" go start their own club with their own rules and tournaments that aren't run by "stick jocks".... Literally nothing stopping them from playing a different game. People don't enter a baseball tournament and complain they aren't playing football.
And now you’ve discovered the retention problem. Which is quietly panicking people in the Society. And folks like you literally pushing people out the door with a “good riddance” is not exactly what they want you to be doing. So nice work. You want the SCA to die a slow, or perhaps less-slow death by attrition? Keep it up. And quote me correctly: “CTE-addled stick jocks.”
Clubs go out of fashion every day. The SCA doesn't need to last forever. People make it their entire personality but its just a fun club/sport.. if it dies, something new will take its place. The SCA can literally half its current membership and still be bigger than pretty much every other LARP out there.
>Then why don't "people" go start their own club with their own rules and tournaments that aren't run by "stick jocks".... Because for a lot of people in the SCA, due to the organisation's size, it's possible to spend 99% of your time simply not interacting with the heavy fighting community in any capacity. (The 1% includes attending royal courts, or sitting near someone talking about their on-field experiences at a feast). For a lot of people, they joined the SCA because of the other stuff that was far more interesting to them. And, as others have noted, being an inspiring leader, competent public speaker, and competent administrator, are all excellent skills to have as the figurehead of an organisation's regional chapter. And none of those skills are being directly tested via tournament fighting. So why not broaden the pool of possible figureheads, to have the best chance of kingdoms and principalities being led by inspirational, entertaining, and compassionate royalty?
The SCA game has changed thousands of times over the decades. We've added awards structures, and updated them. We've added Peerages, and updated them. We've allowed more and different activities, and updated them. We've changed rules on everything from event fees, to armor standards, to who can be an officer, how Baronages are chosen, who can head a Barony, and even who can be Crown and Consort. There is no reason not to change the game for how Crown and Consort are chosen as well.
Thank you for your polite insight.
So you're saying that only people who can and want to fight heavy should join the SCA because that's how you become crown? Because apparently in your eyes, heavy is the only activity the society does?
There aren't other games to play for people who want a living history/historical larp that marries with the chance to study historic sword fighting, or study the various arts & sciences. Other than the Not-CA, show me another group that even attempts what the SCA is.
Adrian Empire, and their wars are fought to be crown instead of a tournament.
OP- what’s stopping you from being a Laurel? do it now. This next competition I expect you to become the next A&S Champion.
I’ve already done that. But! I do think you’re on to the best idea for why we should change things - we’re supposed to be an educational non-profit. I’m not sure how a fairly ahistorical method of monarch selection is in line with our fulfillment of our stated mission. Unless the SCA is actually just a LARP which LARPs as an educational organization.
then your next step is pelican. tomorrow. get on it. also, you realize the SCA is a larp, right? we are expected to have personas. you are exhausting.
Larps have point systems. The SCA doesn't. We are going to open up Crown to other contests and it will be so much better. The old dukes, the ones who have won Crown eight times or more, can teach classes on how to be monarchs if they like. I wouldn't expect much content in such a class, but why not? The SCA is more like running a simulation with certain parameters. We're just finally adjusting the parameters slightly. It's not affirmative action, heavy fighters can stop crying.
There is literally the Order of Precedence that awards points based on awards and titles.
Noooo. Not in any kingdom I've lived in, anyway. Not a point system.
you have never had a line up based on OP. Lots of people care way too much about their number.
It's not points though. Might as well line up alphabetically. Or by number of years in the SCA or by amount of finger-loop braiding. It's meaningless. Edit: I can never win enough points to become a monarch. It's retroactive in a way. It's OOP and $3.50 gets me a fancy coffee. My persona isn't capped at Level 50. It's not the same as points...why not just...not get in line?
Follow your own line of logic. Why would we change the A&S competition to factor in armored combat skill?
there is a Heavy Champions as a separate event. Can we have an A&S Competition for Royals?
Dude you are absolutely adorable in your ideas of how heavy fighting is so inclusive and the system shouldn't change. Do you know how often it is still said to this day by fighters that a woman can't hit them hard enough to take a shot? Or how many crown tournaments are won cleanly enough that there's not a question on if the winner didn't blow off a shot? I've been playing for 12 years now and I have yet to see a crown tournament that didn't have at least a few people claiming they saw a shot land that was called light. I'm not saying fencing is better or worse than heavy fighting but, dude, lose the belief that heavy fighting is perfect and why don't the fencers just authorize in heavy. Is anyone expecting the BoD to actually approve this variance? I doubt it. But does that mean it's not worth a shot? Absolutely not. Change is one of the few inevitable things in this world and if you think our game hasn't changed in almost 60 years, I can get you some carpet armor and a freon can for you to wear. Here's some numbers for you (that are in the full proposal but just in case you didn't read it). There are approximately 465 heavy fighters in the East Kingdom (which has approximately 2000-2500 members). The last crown tournament had 37 and the last K&Q rattan had 37 as well. The fencing program in the East has 332 authorized fencers and the last K&Q rapier had 66 (and that's with the tournament being in the very corner of the kingdom). Several of the past rapier champs have been over 80 and have continued to have just about the same number of people as crown tournament and rattan champs combined. Here's my question for you, why not a rapier crown? Why don't the heavy fighters just authorize in heavy fighting the same way fencers can authorize in heavy? Got any reasons other than "because this is how it's always been done?" Why are you so afraid of this possible change?
Skill issue. Learn technique and you'll hit hard enough. If you're a spectator, your opinion literally doesn't matter if you think the shot was rhino'd. It is between the combatants to be adults and talk it out.
I’ve never said heavy fighting is perfect, I’m honestly a fan of counted blows by independent judges. Any system which relies on the “honor” of the participants **who really want to win** is inherently suspect, no matter their gender, size, or category. As far as reasons to maintain the tradition of heavy fighting being the only path to Crown? Because of the tradition of the game which, once again, does not prevent anyone from entering as the fighter or consort. Can’t fight because of a medical reason? Be the consort. Don’t want to fight but still want to be Crown? Be the consort. A fair amount of the discussions seem to only center on the fighter and makes me feel as though the consort is viewed as the lesser half. Considering how much time, effort, and energy consorts put into Reigns, I find such implications to be very disrespectful. Add in that most of the consorts over the years have been fellow women and the unconscious misogyny becomes far more pronounced.
You can't just *choose* to be a consort. It doesn't work that way. The fighter is the one who ultimately decides who their consort is, so you can only be the consort *with someone else's permission*. That's a **substantial** part of the problem. Indeed, it's probably *most* of the problem. The consort is not "lesser," but the consort is not an open path to the crown. It's a path that is, quite literally, invite-only - which in turn creates a dynamic where a fighter can look for someone who will just go along with their ideas. There are plenty of powerful consorts who command respect. However, every single consort requires the *institutional permission of fighters* in order to reign. How you don't see that as an **obvious** power disparity and an **obvious** element of institutionalized misogyny is beyond me.
While occasionally people choose someone as a business partnership to be consort, it's generally a romantic partner. So choosing to sleep with the right hot stick, while historic, is not the solution you're presenting. Particularly given the majority of fighters want a woman as consort. The misogyny isn't unconscious - it's right out there in the open.
What is wrong with the idea? Yes, anyone can be consort if they make a deal with a fighter -- or at least have a chance to be consort. But that really still negates those who have a desire to do it themselves, for no really good reason. Does the idea of not having a heavy fighter on the throne bother you personally? After all, by your own statement, even as a heavy fighter, you don't have much chance of winning a crown tournament. The way it is now, and has been for 58 years, there's a very small group of fighters who generally control each kingdom. We get people winning crown eight, nine, ten times -- and frankly,it doesn't matter who that is, it gets old. The SCA is rapidly aging, and we aren't especially good at being inclusive. The fact that for 58 years the fighters have been the face of the society, overwhelmingly male, and a very high percentage of those men Caucasian is one big reason. If we don't change the perception and the reality, the SCA won't be around another 30 years.
Diversity is more than skin color, sexual orientation, gender presentation, religion, sex, nationality. It's also experiences. Currently all the potential Sovereigns are necessarily linked with the heavy fighting community. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. But it tends to restrict their view of the entire SCA. Why not have people who's view of the SCA is, if not broader, then at least *different* than that?
Entering isn't the issue, winning is. >It seems to me that people just want a better shot at winning and to use their own special focus to do it (rapier, archery, arts, etc.). Yes, just as heavy fighters want a better shot at winning and to use their own special focus to do it.
Please do not pretend as if heavy fighters do no art or service or dabble in rapier. We'll have 21 to 1 of heavy fighters that do art winning a laurel crown versus laurels that do armored win an armored crown.
>Please do not pretend as if heavy fighters do no art or service or dabble in rapier. No idea where you get that from my comment. A lot of heavy fighters would likely crush in rapier due to their physical capabilities, if they focused on it. The OP's argument was just silly. >We'll have 21 to 1 of heavy fighters that do art winning a laurel crown versus laurels that do armored win an armored crown. There are definitely heavy fighters that could win an A&S crown and it would likely be easier for anyone (including fighters) to win an A&S crown than a heavy fighting crown because an A&S crown is more accessible to the average person, despite physical limitations, age, etc... I don't favor an A&S crown, even if as it would favor those with a academic skills and education, as well as those able to fund big, expensive projects - a different set of physical and mental limitations. It is also very subjective and lends itself to favoritism and voting for the person instead of the entry. I say that, despite knowing that I am exactly the kind of person who could kick ass in an A&S crown, as I have a rare skill set, an academic background, the funds, and the patience required to do the sort of big projects that would win.
It has nothing to do with people ‘wanting a better shot at crown’. It has to do with the fact that, since heavy fighting is the only way to get crowned king or queen, heavy fighting gets the vast majority of attention from the royals, which hurts many other activities in the SCA. Hell, west kingdom lost almost their entire rapier fighting community because we had a king a while back who hated rapier and did everything he could to shut it down. If people knew the next crown was a rapier tournament, it would prevent something like that from happening. This also encourages people to interact with more communities. If you know that your field isn’t going to have a crown tournament for the next three years, you might start looking at getting involved in the other fields. As for your examples, you know that is a bad faith argument. While those groups are not prevented from entering, the vast majority of them are not given support, or even actively discouraged from participating. The only way they could ever reign is by having friends who are heavy fighters, which turns crown into a competition about who you know, and not about recognizing skill.
I got into the SCA for the fencing. Right after purchasing my two schlager rapiers and finding a fencing mask, Jade and his queen Juana Isabella banned fencing, called fencers “thugs and thieves,” and said they would keep winning Crown and banning fencing until it stuck. Just for fun, look up the song Ban the Fencers. Used to be a favorite of Sir Kielson here in Oertha. The knights up here used to be very pro-fencing. I also recall the An Tir war crown, in which the winner was chosen in a field battle. I loved that idea. People could have a say in the final round by fighting for the one they liked best. I love that rapier is so much more acceptable now. I might never put on armor again.
A rotating crown: heavy, rapier, archery, a&s, and bardic. I wouldn't have a problem with that honestly.
One of the great things about SCA combat (both armored and C&T) is that the loser decides the winner, not judges. I cannot foresee a way to come close to that for A&S or service type competitions. (And the fact that you separate bardic from A&S raises the point of how finely grained should this be? Should equestrians have a crown? What about potters?)
I dint have a master plan laid out for it, would be nice to see more than the same four people over and over
Wasn’t the king. It was the queen. King more or less didn’t give af about rapier, one way or the other. The Queen, however, had beef dating back to the early days when the rapier community used to blatantly use the SCA for the insurance policy and the flout the rest of the stuff that went along with the SCA. This is *ancient* dirt, going back over 50 years at this point and there are still enough people active in the West who remember it. Not saying she was right to ban rapier in the West 30 years ago. Just saying there’s some *history* and it wasn’t on the King’s end.
Ahh, I have only heard of it second hand, so I only knew bits and pieces.
Said queen ended up being my laurel, after I wrote a huge screed against her and the whole Pennsic accord fiasco as Bard of Cynagua, lol. I love her to bits, but she's never, ever going to budge on the rapier issue. That said, the SCA has moved on from a lot of that crap. The dregs of it are still there, but the further we get from it, the less it matters.
Why do you assume I’m making a bad faith argument? Everything I said about eligibility is accurate and folks are actively encouraged to enter Crown Tournament. If someone is being excluded from entering for a discriminatory reason, it needs to be elevated to the Seneschal and/or higher.
And, like I said, just because people are *technically* allowed to compete does not mean that the competition is fair. Women constantly get told that they shouldn’t do heavy, and are rarely ever given any support by knights or more senior members of the community because they are seen as ‘too weak’ to compete. It’s not like people are stealing their shit, but minority groups have to work substantially harder to get the same recognition as people who just happen to be white males who are 6’+. Opening up crown helps to soften some of those barriers, and makes it much harder for crown to just be a club, where the same four people win crown every year. It also help recognize some of the people who are doing exceptional things in the SCA. There are a lot of SCA activities that don’t have any official awards or recognition for them, often because they have never had a crown who was interested in their activity. By expanding the group of people who are eligible for crown, you increase the ability for people to be recognized for great work, and decrease the ability for bad actors to fuck things up.
Look up Queen Kaylah of Ealdormere :P
…I bet if you asked her if women receive the same support as men in heavy, she would also tell you no I know personally several female fighters, and all of them have talked about the lack of support for female fighters. I suggest you talk to people in these groups, I think you would be surprised how bad it is.
I do talk to them. Our local barony is usually 40% or so women at any given fight practice.
Good for them, have you asked them if women are given the same level of support and respect as men (in heavy combat)? Cause if you don’t ask them they sure as hell won’t tell you.
I can’t speak for other places/kingdoms but I can say that for my kingdom women are absolutely treated as equals
Hate to be pedantic here, but are you a woman heavy fighter yourself? Or are you speaking FOR them, based on your outside view?
Duchess Kaylah is the exception that proves the rule. There are two Crown tournaments a year per kingdom, for a total of 40 winners per year. A representative sample of winners shouldn't have precisely two women in it, almost 30 years apart. We're all pretty well aware that there are more women in harness than that indicates. Hell, roughly 10% of the Chiv is female as I recall, but strangely those belted fighters don't seem to get a lot of crowns...
You're right - it IS about having a better shot at crown. Why should someone be forced to have to pursue an activity that they either have no interest in, or a low chance of ever being good at in order to be crown? The number of people with the chance to win a crown tourney relative to active population of our kingdoms is incredibly tiny. We need better leadership, we need more diverse leadership.
I am an aspiring heavy fighter, And I support expanding the formats for Crown even though I am actively interested in Heavy. I get your point- Crown is always going to be highly exclusive because ultimately, only two people can be “it” at a time, and, as long as the format is some kind of competition, it will be restricted to the people at the highest levels of that skill. And yes, anyone can get authorized in Heavy and I am a big advocate for making the rattan community more open and welcoming so more people feel empowered and excited to try it out. At the same time, not everyone needs to be interested in heavy. It’s just one thing the SCA is about, and Crown is the most visible office in the SCA. The SCA is not entirely or mostly focused on heavy fighting, so it doesn’t make sense to me that the only way to achieve the most visible office should be heavy combat. Rapier is an easy first step because it can have an identical tournament format, so the least number of changes are necessary. Also, as you are probably aware, heavy and rapier have overlapping skills, and being knowledgeable at one is likely to help you on the other, they are very different fighting styles, so it’s not as easy as telling fencers to pick up rattan any more than it would be telling rattan fighters to just pick up a rapier. Furthermore, there are no outright restrictions on, for example, disabled people entering Crown. But like, if you have a disability that means getting thwacked with weapons is dangerous (e.g. on blood thinners for a clot, bleeding disorder), then you are effectively prevented from the competition. The discussion of POC, women, and gender minorities is more complicated because it speaks to wider culture issues that won’t be solved just by making other types of competitions for Crown. (Not that there aren’t wider culture issues for disabled people, just that “some disabilities literally mean it would be impossible for someone to fight heavy” is a clear cut answer here)
Thank you for your well thought out and courteous reply, I greatly appreciate it.
Rattan fighters have an easier time picking up a rapier than the other way around
Ah, the, "any change to the heavy-wins-Crown system is affirmative action that will only lead to reverse discrimination" argument. This came up when Atlantia didn't have any female knights, too. Pepperidge Farm remembers.
They fear they'll be treated the same way they treated others.
I don’t do rattan, not out of some girlish dislike of getting hit (I joust jftr) but because it simply doesn’t interest me. I’ve authorized, fought in both tournaments and field battles but it’s not my thing. It’s certainly not something I would spend my off hours practicing— so yes, winning a rattan tournament isn’t something that will ever happen for me. I’m hardly alone. The majority of SCA participants aren’t active heavy fighters. Elevating one of those activities over all the others doesn’t reflect the current demographics and interests of our club.
Last two EK crowns have been won by not taking legit hits. EK is considering changing to fencing for the next crown. And I hope it passes. Tired of seeing honorable knights/fighters lose to this kind of play in heavy list.
Because rapier fighters neeever let their egos get the better of them and blow off shots
Please show me the crown non-calls in fencing on YouTube please. Ego is rampant, obviously. However Heavy List favors a certain type of person and fencing allows for a wider berth.
Holy bad faith question OP.
Not everyone can actually safely even enter crown. I suffer from a medical condition where my joints are too flexible and routinely dislocate for no reason. All it would take would for one good hard blow to land wrong, to do permanent, irreversible damage to a shoulder or hand. That risk is far lower in rapier, and might be nonexistent for other formats. I'm sure I'm not thr only one in this position.
I think that’s a completely reasonable cause to not want to fight heavy. Do you feel as though being a consort would somehow be less-than?
I wouldn't say less-than, I've seen plenty of times where the consort was the driving force of the reign. The issues with being consort is that it still puts heavy fighters as being in the sole position to determine who can be consort, and that the huge majority of consorts are partners or family. That means my best chance to become a consort is to seduce a fighter, and I don't think there's a huge pool of fighters who are into bears. My wife probably wouldn't be crazy about that plan either.
Just make friends it isnt that hard
You offering to fight for me?
If I knew you and liked you, I might. Would you ask? If the answer is yes, Then you know very well how to become one.
Which again, gives fighters the power to gatekeep who can be consort.
Ohh nooo the fighter cabal has a choice in who can be their consort. Because it's such a monolithic group looking to exclude people.
Glad to see dickishness remains a chivalric value.
You don't have to have an IRL romantic relationship between the Crowns. I'm about to enter Crown Tourney as consort to a man who is most definitely married to someone else. Your pool is not 'fighters into bears' but 'fighters who think you'd be a good Consort'.
Obviously there is no requirement for the sovereign and consort to be romantically together... but in the 6 years I've been playing every king and queen of the Midrealm have been married couples. Of the \~30 couples who entered the last crown, I only know of two who were just friends. It happens, but it's rare, and as other people have mentioned it still puts heavy fighters in the position of choosing who can reign.
Funny, East and Atlantia have several kings who make queens - or duchesses. Well, maybe that guy with the Reigns spreadsheet will shed some light on the situation.
As many other commenters have stated… Why not give it a chance? There’s comments being made about consorts… A consort is chosen by a fighter, they are chosen for a number of reasons! 1. Shared ideas 2. Support 3. Relationship (NOT NECESSARILY ROMANTIC) You don’t just GET to be a consort. Making the avenue to crown (for most commonly female presenting people) strictly through someone else. This chance of a change opens the access to the crown more OPEN to more people! Bringing modern inclusion and diversity to our game that could really use!
I think a better question is: why are you upset about this? I personally have a much higher chance of winning a rattan Crown than a rapier Crown, but I'm still in favor of having a rapier Crown now and then. I'm not in favor of other variant Crown formats, due to participation size and judging issues. However, as the East's FAQ says, swapping rattan for rapier is very straightforward and should fit well into the existing structure of the Society.
I'm with you, and I'm genuinely excited to see the East Kingdom make this work. It's clear, it's straightforward, it's a minor change in wording that will make a big difference to an awful lot of people. Go East!
One day old account asks pestering bad-faith questions about Crown? You're just here to make noise. If you actually cared about this topic, you'd be well-versed in this conversation already.
What if the one day old account is pretty well versed in the question but only feels comfortable asking it because of online harassment she’s seen other people go through for doing the same?
I dunno, if a large majority of people in my social club said "you're an asshole" to someone else expressing an opinion I hold, I might consider whether or not *I'm also an asshole*. That whole self-reflection thing is hard.
Majority opinion != being right
Some people just don’t want to fight heavy. I personally don’t mind the existence of heavy fighting in the SCA, but it’s not really what personally interests me. Honestly, for me it’s all about the A&S, historical recreation side of things. But everyone’s different and that’s okay!
I’m a non-binary fencer, for context before I begin. I don’t really understand the nature of your argument. There’s a lot of things that would keep somebody from entering as a fighter or a consort. I don’t really think they need to be listed, right? Health, interest, relationships… I’ll admit that - probably like you - I’m not a huge fan of elements of this debate because it can turn into “let’s all bash the heavy fighters,” which is shitty. Being Crown is an expensive, hard, often miserable 6-9 months with an incredible personal toll and I’m not sure I’d ever personally put myself up for it. I respect the hell out of anyone who manages a reign gracefully. I’d like it if we could have these discussions without throwing heavies under the bus. I think they’re as likely to be inclusive and supportive as anybody else in the SCA and certainly I’ve gotten a shitton of training and motivation support from heavies in my kingdom - and I don’t even fight heavy. Now, that said, for many kingdoms it just makes more sense to open up to rapier every now and again because that’s what people are up to a bit more these days. Things change. Demographics shift. And is it bad to want a better shot at winning using your own special focus? Is it bad to want to win? Is it bad to want to be the Crown? I don’t think so. I don’t think it’s a shameful thing to be ambitious and aspire for glory, is it? I don’t think anyone wants to steal the culture of the SCA away from anybody. There is so much lineage and history and emotion behind everything the heavies do to prepare for Crown. I just think we can probably add to that without taking anything away by taking turns from time to time, in kingdoms where that makes sense.
Thank you for your wisdom, grace, and insight.
None of that is bad except the first part: "your own special focus" Rapier and armored are both different fighting disciplines. One is definitely harder than the other. Therefore, changing to an easier fighting form for crown cheapens the contest.
Hahaha. Oh, that’s so very silly. Never mind, you.
I fight Rapier; it's my passion since I was little and didn't know SCA was a thing (My Dad thought Zorro was cool, so I thought Zorro was cool). I have yet to be a consort for Crown because no one wants to fight for me. I do not, and cannot, fight in Crown as a heavy fighter because I am on blood thinners. Oddly, my Dr has OK'd Rapier so I stick to that. It also doesn't help that I cannot find a Heavy Helm that fits without a LOT of padding, which would make the helm too heavy and uncomfortable to wear. So I do my best to support the heavy community in what little way they care for me to. I have the time to be Crown. I have the money to be Crown. I have the Honking Huge Truck for all the Stuff. I do not have the Support. So I do not fight in Crown.
Have you tried making friends and asking?
I have many friends; the ones that are active heavy fighters have their own consorts already so asking a consort to step aside is rude. I noticed your account was brand new, for this thread maybe? You seem to have a lot to say, why not say it on your original account instead of making a masked one?
Well if rapier is too easy for you the only logical solution is to install turn the crown tournament into one of those American ninja warrior obstacle courses. This is a good faith answer to a good faith question
I made this reply in my Kingdom FB group that is discussing this topic, and I think my comments are valid here, so sharing. The question was posed, in similar bad faith to this OP: What about the SCA, it's rules. history, culture, whatever, is important to you? What elements would you want to protect and preserve? I answered the following: To answer your question - everything. Everything is important. That is where I think there may be a deeper misunderstanding on where someone in my position is coming at this development versus the position you are taking. Again, everything is important, to everyone. Including the highest offices in our game, the Crown. Where I think we depart is that I see very little issue in opening up the opportunity to compete for that office to another group of people that are equally as invested in our game. In fact, I think that it perhaps would invigorate many people to become more involved and would raise the skill bar for Rapier combat as a whole. Consider what would actually change if this proposal were to be adopted. Personally I see two things - The weapons used in Crown, and the pool of people competing. Truly nothing else. Even then, no one is submitting to completely replace Armored combat Crown tournaments. At worst, I'd advocate for perhaps a 2 armored, 1 rapier schedule. If the submission were to be completely eliminating armored crowns, I would flatly, COMPLETELY be against this. Thats not what is being asked for. You mention previously that you believe Rapier fighters to not be qualified to speak on heavy issues such as War negotiations and scenario building. Do you believe current Crowns do not lean on subject matter experts for those topics when it comes to Rapier scenarios? Why do you believe that it would not be possible for someone who specializes in Rapier to similarly lean on experts and friends on the Armored side? It is somewhat concerning to me that your position is doom and gloom if a new Crown coming from the Rapier field were to be elevated. What would be the difference between a first time Armored Crown and a first time Rapier Crown? Do they not develop a number of people around them that give them support? Would the people that have held the position previously not offer their council?
Well reasoned and well said, thank you for your words. (Though I disagree with your comments about my post being in bad faith).
Your bad faith question is bad, and you should feel bad.
I do not, but thank you for your reply.
Entering isn’t the issue. The fact is, everyone who enters Crown Tourney has the potential to win and become crown, and you MUST be prepared for that eventuality. (Seriously. Legend tells of one CT where half the entrants got food poisoning and had to withdraw, and a Newcomer won) Winning crown means a commitment of 6-9 months of your life, being the face of the Kingdom, plenty of paperwork and travel. Not everyone is up to that.
No matter who wins crown it requires a 6 to 9 to really 12 month commitment and also a lot of money. Lot of people can't do that but it doesn't matter what those people are good at, they're not in a position to make the personal sacrifices to sit on the throne no matter what it is they're good at that they might win at if the tournament was in that thing. If that makes any sense?
I don't fight heavy because 1; I am as coordinated as a bag of rocks, and 2: I don't want to be hit.
If it weren’t for point #2 you’d make a fine addition to a shield-wall!
I just want my crown to win with a sword rather than an oversized piece of grass, is that so wrong?
Nope, that makes a bunch of sense.