You need a proofreader to catch spelling and punctuation. An editor should catch the big stuff: plot holes, major inconsistencies, errors. If you can catch it yourself, then fine
I was my own proofreader, and pretty much everything else.
I wrote my book as a hobby for therapy, I then started editing it as I read it myself over and over.
I even design my book cover by myself, learning image editing from scratch on a bootleg laptop.
Where there's a will, there's a way.
Honestly thank you for this. I always read you should have an editor and should hire a cover artist and I get it… but I don’t have the money so I have to make it work with what I got.
Of course, but also take into account that, even by doing your best, if it turns out "not so well" just accept it before grinding yet again to make it right.
Even so, always try your best, not only with your own book but also at everything you do in life (this is also a message I used in a plot in my book at some point).
This is true, but it's also a part of the reason there's a huge difference in quality between self-published stuff and traditionally published. A much higher percentage of self-published work, covers, and quality is absolute garbage. Not saying it's yours, but you only have to hang out in the KU library for a day, skimming sneak peeks, to see that.
Welp, I only have a single review with 5 stars in the Spanish version and not a single sell so I know the value of my work.
Your words are so close and I accept them truly. Even so, I still do my best.
hey man, I never said that I didn't do the same thing! But I wonder how much we all think we're the exception instead of the rule - statistically, it's just not possible. I also do not have the cash for all the various editors I'm supposed to have, much less marketing and such. I do pay for all my covers, though. I know that I don't have the eye for it.
Everyone thinks they are the exception to the rule, alright.
That's human nature and the effect of society also.
Just be humble and do your best. That's my mantra.
This ^
It’s called developmental editing, and my editor cost $8000 a book, but then she’s edited NY Times Bestselling authors you’ve heard of. You can find editors cheaper, of course.
There are cheaper options. KM Weiland has a list of editors that charge less than $8000. If your book is around 350 pages, it'll be around $1.5K to $2.5K. Her website is [helpingwritersbecomeauthors.com](https://helpingwritersbecomeauthors.com)
Edit: The price also differs for experienced writers vs new writers (more expensive).
My book won’t be released until nov. I’m an outlier, I did weird (wrong) things and got lucky with the right people at the right time. Be careful spending that much on a book until you’ve gotten a LOT of honest praise (not just sycophants who love you). :)
As to whether I thought it was worth the money, well, that will depend on how well it sells. But before that comes to pass, I would say yes. Now keep in mind that I did this with an industry veteran who has edited people whose names you’ve heard, so they really have a track record of knowing what they’re talking about, knowing the business, understanding publishers, understanding marketing, and understanding story arcs, and so forth.
I’m not saying that cheaper editors won’t, but given everything that I received, I would say it was well worth it, but whether I will repeat that or not depends on how well it does.
The biggest decision I have to deal with right now is do I actually WANT a publisher if one is willing to pick the book up, because I can make a lot more with the attention that the book is garnering without one, but then I can be found in a Barnes & Noble‘s with one, which is every author’s dream.
One last thing. Don’t over edit. I did that once and it just makes everything sterile. I remember using AC and thinking adverbs are bad, this is bad, that is bad. I literally edited to 100% score and it was just awful. I’ve now found my happy place with adverbs, filler words, etc.
Also, make sure you’re checking for repeated words. I don’t necessarily mean words repeated more than once in the chapter, though you should look at that, as well. But I mean words that are repeated within a fixed area. Say the same one to three paragraphs. That will elevate things, as well.
Yes that’s so true. It’s important to look for repeated words and I wonder if editors do that. I did a word search on a book recently and used the word task way too many times. I noticed that with my writing my vocabulary almost seems limited and I use the same words far too often. What is ac? I’ve heard people use grammarly to edit.
More likely AutoCrit which is an online writing and editing application geared towards fiction writers. It has built in AI driven analysis tools that they claim can replace a developmental edit, proofreader, and beta reader.
It can be a little hit or miss but I have noticed it's gotten better from when it first dropped a couple months ago - so I'm cautiously optimistic. Will it replace real beta readers? Probably not, but I found the summary and plot hole check decently helpful when I just re ran it on my last draft. Import and export are a bit crap from a formatting perspective though.
Autocrit. The best money I ever spent aside from ProWritingAid, and my secret weapon. I just assumed being a writer’s sub that everyone was already using it.
I dont really *look* for repeated words. If a repeat word jumps out at us, we'll flag it. If it's the best word, we won't. That's how I do for my writers.
Check out some Hemingway for examples of simple, clear, concise writing.
In my experience, the digital tools and AI act indiscriminately, so they will flag stuff that definitely does not need revised. If you can sort out the good notes from the bad, use them.
Read your stuff out loud. That's the very best way to tell if your prose is working.
The best digital tool I use as an editor is PerfectIt. It finds inconsistencies that are hard to notice. Especially when you get into made-up fantasy words and spellings.
A book needs editing. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to hire an editor. Plenty of authors, myself included, do their own editing.
Whether you're capable of doing that or not depends on your grammar skill level, ability to detach/focus, and other factors. Are your books full of errors? If so, then perhaps you did make a mistake. If not, then it doesn't matter. And if your books are self-published, you can always go back and fix any errors you notice.
Oh wow that’s a relief to know. I felt like an idiot for sure for publishing all of these books with no editor but now I feel like it’s possible since others do it as well. Thanks for the tip
Lots of people do. Especially now that we have tools to assist in that. But developmental editing is something that you need an editor for. Believe it or not, AI isn’t horrible at it but only in a very basic way. But, it can give you valuable and viable suggestions if you feed it the entire document. Some AI models will allow this. But I only suggest this if you have no other option. No beta readers, no cheap or free editors, you’re broke, etc. A good developmental editor will really elevate your work and is worth their weight in gold.
It’s like when you write that chapter that makes you say, “Hot damn! This is the best thing I’ve written. Everything just comes together. I’ve evolved.”
They will take that and make you and it even better (if they are a good editor).
It's not detrimental to have an editor (of any kind, there are several kinds of editors for different things), and you can by chance get a good book without one. The above with the caveat that sometimes you hire an editor who's just bad, or you're not on the same wave length with what you want to achieve with your prose.
The job of the editor is have an outside perspective for the text. They ding you for idiosyncrasies within the plot, the world building, the prose. For tautology, for pace, for forgetting plot points.
And they're not fixing the text for you, they'll just suggest edits which you are 100% free to ignore.
Imo, if you can't afford an editor (and many can't), I'd suggest giving your manuscripts a "baking" period before you start editing from the 1st draft. As in give yourself time to forget what you've written and disengage with it. Write something else. Travel the world. Have kids. Idk. Point is that when you come back to that 1st draft, you've largely forgotten what you've written, so you can look at it more objectively and without the emotional investment you had when you finished that 1st draft. Makes it easier to recognize if the text actually flows and spot those plot holes (and the bits where you may have written "Italian suit" when your fantasy world has no Italy).
I mean there’s an argument for not having one, but that said, a book can’t get worse with one. You read your own work sooo many times you’ll miss a lot. You’d be shocked. And it’s simple things like a missing comma, or missing “S” to make things plural. Small stuff that should be obvious, but your mind casually glosses over it. I’d definitely recommend getting one. There’s a handful of websites out there to get one. Make sure you do your research though! It’s very easy to spend a lot of money and get no value out of it. Also, ask around if you know any fellow writers and can get referenced. Or if anyone in your writing circle is into that. Heck, I’ll even throw my name in if you’d want to check it out. Becomeweirder.com ! But all in all, if you’re looking to sell then I would recommend one. If it’s just a hobby or you share it with friends and a writing circle, it’s probably not needed. Good luck though! It’s never too late to find an editor!
It’s not even commas. I once had a guy being summoned to kill a baby who hadn’t even been born until he arrived at the castle. Which means that he was summoned for something that hadn’t even happened yet. NO ONE caught this (especially me because as I was in too deep) except the editor.
Also another where a guy was eavesdropping. The person he was talking to nodded in response. Well how the hell did he know that if he couldn’t see them? Didn’t catch it, but one of my beta readers did.
I consider myself a much better editor than a writer, or author, as I used to edit video game websites and news sites back in the day.
Sometimes as a writer you can’t see the forest for the trees.
"a book can’t get worse with one"
It definitely can. A lot of cheap editors on Fiverr just take your money and run your manuscript through something like Grammarly or some other editor, accepting all suggestions without giving it any thought. There are also editors who like to rewrite everything in their own style, which can sometimes not be suitable for the genre you're writing in or mash with your style of writing. So you do indeed need to be very careful.
Thanks! Yes you’re so right you definitely tend to just ignore small or minor mistakes here and there it’s so common. Thanks for the recommendation I’d definitely appreciate if you could check out my work possibly. I didn’t realize things could get worse with an editor but you’re right it’s very possible. Thank you.
There are definitely bad editors, too. I had an experience of one, and it included grammar errors starting from the MC's name (simple, short name) and my OWN name, the assessment was a bit of a mess and he missed the main element of the story, focusing on trivial and smaller, insignificant details and suggested adding details that were already there(I even double checked in doubt).
One of my reviewers picked up a vulgar word. That word was ‘shit.’ I didn’t write it myself but it was inside a quote. It affected the rating. I was shocked that it caused outrage in this modern era of filthy language and moral decline.
Just want to say that I read over 50ish books in the last 13 months, and over half of them had typos/errors, and some were from well-known authors. I was actually shocked.
That’s true. But, I’m not sure that applies when you are not Brandon Sanderson.
Before you’re lauded and proven with 100,000 awesome reviews, readers will not tolerate many errors.
Do I still read Sanderson all the way through despite mistakes? Sure. Would I do the same for “insert unknown name here”? No.
Most ppl assume you mean proofreading when you say editing. Proofreading is like the last 10% and requires the least skill—hence ai tools, grammarly etc.
The real value of editing is long before proofreading, beginning with the developmental stage.
If you consider proofreading “editing,” then you’ll assume a $100 software can cover it.
Once you find (very difficult) and invest in an exceptional editor, the value they bring will impress you beyond your expectations. That’s what happened to me during my fifth year of writing.
Now, I’d never work without him.
I don’t mind sharing him if anyone would like to pm me.
I was coming to say the same thing. My editor is worth her weight in gold. She finds so many ways to make my stories better.
I'm also more than happy to share her with anyone who PM's.
I wouldn't bother at all. Why spend more money on a product that won't make more because you edit it. In addition, this entire market of editors is very predatory in nature, and I don't think it produces good content. I struggled finding editors, and many editors didn't really offer much. I ended up hiring a development editor, and it exploded in my face. I got someone who lied about their background, then tried to extort money from me.
I then got a free beta reader who was also an editor, and she said I didn't even need an editor. Though she will be happy to accept thousands for it, she really didn't see a need for it either.
But I guess it depends on your quality of work, and how you write.
If your work is very poor, just create a new pen name and start writing high quality content with them. I don't think I would hire editors though, unless you wanted to learn more about how to write a story and really struggling with the plot development.
That's interesting to know and what a perspective. I had no clue editors could be this difficult to find though it seems like common sense that they would be because it'd probably based on their experience, expertise etc. Sometimes it's true a person may not even need an editor thanks!
I think there are good ones, they just are very expensive.
I personally work with other authors, and we work together on Editing our stories. It actually works out, because editing takes a ton of time to get to read it.
Part of my problem with developers editors, is that my book is very complicated and detailed. The other Author I worked with red it a dozen times to get very familiar with the content. They struggled doing a good job earlier on, and many of their early recommended where not very good because they didn't know the material well.
If your book is simplier then mine, or if your not Anal retentive like me, or if you make enough money on your books, I would change my recommendation.
Also, It might be more valuable as a first time author, then as a 9th time author. And some people know how to make a good story, and can learn the parts they need, and can get by without it.
Many of these types of edits though are new, and where not found in older forms of publishing, or was done less frequently. There seems to be a push for Editors now, as it makes more money for the groups that promote it.
Are your books selling? Do people seem to like them? If you're getting by fine without paying for an editor, you probably haven't made any fatal error. Maybe an editor could help you make stuff flow and read better. But maybe you have the ability to clean it up enough yourself. You'll find that the average person doesn't notice little mistakes anyway. As long as the spelling and grammar are correct and there are no major plot inconsistencies, most people won't notice anything wrong and thus, you didn't need to really hire any help.
Also, editors don't always make the story better. You have to be careful about who you hire. It could end up a huge waste of money that erases your voice as an author or enforces bad practices.
Actually they’re not selling and they’re not too bad but I do feel an editor could definitely help with a lot of things. Most of my books are self-help books and now I find myself writing in the same style and pattern and dishing out one book after another and it makes no sense. I write books almost the way a person completes a short-lived task or hobby. It does seem as if the grammar and spelling are alright then you’re on your way to doing decently.
I do feel an editor could help it’s just that they cost a lot of money and I’m not sure if it’s worth it though it seems to be for sure. I’m sure most of the successful authors more than likely use professional editors or I’m assuming this. Then again most people’s books just look better than mine for some reason or better thought out for sure.
You've got 7 books published and none of them are selling? Have you had beta readers read through your books to give feedback? Even if you can't afford an editor, you should ask someone to read over one of your books to see if there's anything stopping it from selling. You can find people online who do it for free, or pay someone on a site like Fiverr.
I have a beta reader working on the first two chapters of my current project right now. I only paid 7 euros for her to read 10k words and send a detailed report with feedback + highlight any mistakes in the document.
thanks yes I just figured the market is over-saturated with books and most of my books are self-help books so I don’t expect people to buy them now, but I’ve dished out about eight books and it’s ridiculous. Not a single book is selling. They're not terrible but they’re not amazing or great I think. I don't think my books will sell unless they're ffiction. I did get some sales through Ingram spark though.
To be clear, the editing may not change the sales. Lack of sales could also be poor marketing. You should get some feedback from unbiased readers within your target demographic before deciding whether or not you need to hire someone.
If books aren't selling, it means that no one actually read through them. Thus, the problem is not necessarily the content but more likely cover/blurb/lack of marketing.
You only really need an editor to call you out on your nonsense and stupid ideas.
For example, one of my early stories involved multiple scenes that all took place in a plain white void (it was a sci-fi story and made sense in context) as both a part of the world-building and as a cop-out to avoid describing the scenery (I didn't want to risk the settings for each scene distracting from the dialog). My editor rightly called out that this didn't really work for multiple reasons and suggested I flesh out a small but unique & grounded setting for each scene. This ultimately amounted to just one or two extra sentences here and there, but the story is much better because of this, and I really needed someone else to call me out on that.
Now, if unlike young me you don't try and pull dumb nonsense like that, or if you're good at calling yourself out on your nonsense and looking at your story through fresh eyes, then you're probably fine without an editor. On the other hand, if while writing you catch yourself thinking "no one will notice if I take a shortcut here" or something along those lines, an editor might be a good idea.
The best example I can cite for why additional eyes/external opinions are crucial would be the Star Wars films. George Lucas may have written and directed the first Star Wars movie, but his friends like Steven Spielberg and Brian De Palma, not to mention his wife at the time, were instrumental in the editing process (the original cut was apparently like four hours long and an incomprehensible mess). Spielberg basically told him what to cut and his wife re-edited the whole thing for him. It stands the test of time. Conversely, Lucas wrote, directed, produced, and oversaw the editing for the Star Wars prequels (I get there are people out there who like the prequels, and that's perfecty fine -- I'm just not one of them). Point is, by the prequels Lucas has completely insulated himself from external eyes, and the results, in my opinion, speak for themselves (there's a book out there, How Star Wars Was Saved in the Editing Room, that's pretty neat).
For a more personal example, I let my brother read my novel manuscript before publishing, and he told me one of the main characters did something at the midway point that made him completety lose sympathy with her. I'm glad he told me, because the changes I implemented made the story and her arc stronger.
If you can't afford an editor, at the very least join a writer's critique group. You'll get accustomed to having your work critiqued, and if it's a good group, it'll make your writing stronger (I just presented a short story for critique this past week, and everyone pointed out I switched POVs several times mid-paragraph -- when I wrote it, I thought it flowed logically, but apparently not). I fixed the POV, and now the story's stronger.
At this point, I'm not sure I'd bother "fixing" what's been published. It will be too overwhelming for you. Start afresh with something new and get it in front of some beta readers.
Best of luck!
As an editor, I can confidently say some authors need me more than others. It truly depends on your ability to self-edit and what your writing groups have looked like. Critique groups can be a great way to get in-depth developmental edits without paying! However, even with those groups, I recommend at least a hired proofreader!
A good editor is a luxury. Someone who understands your writing, can point out your blind spots, and declutters. A bad editor is pain. Someone who squeezes the life out of your work and shoves it into a vanilla cookie cutter.
You really don't know what would be different until an editor starts to work on it. I find in blind to some of my own habits and my editor caught a ton of stuff that helped me. With that said, I have since purchased editing tools which has helped a lot with prep before I send things in for human editing.
@ OP, with self publishing you need to find the right balance for you and your intended audience. You don't want to over capitalize spending hundreds on editors etc if you are releasing something that is fairly low content and simple, or is unlikely to reach a large audience (due to no marketing) because you will not get that money back. Of course, you should review your manuscript sufficiently to satisfy yourself there are no typos and that it's as polished as it can be, but you don't have to follow a cookie cutter approach to self publishing and hire an editor just because others do. Their circumstances, books, target audience etc may be very different to your own.
TLDR: be careful with lining the pockets of others (editors, formatters etc) if it is foreseeable you will never get a return on that money. That's when self-publishing turns into a form of vanity publishing.
That’s a very interesting perspective to have thanks. Yes it’s true you more than likely don’t want to spend too much if your book isn’t going to capitalize on profits, yet you also want something that’s presentable and at least grammatically correct in some format. I would personally still want a perfect as can be book, but I haven’t taken my own advice yet. It seems most peoples work is pretty polished, and most feel the same way- they want to put something close to perfection out there Thanks for the input
I think one of the big things people are missing here is in regards to the type of editing books need. Beta readers/friends can help catch pesky typos and general mistakes, so you can get away with not paying an editor for that. But friends and beta readers are not going to be able to line edit your book, which is what pretty much every fresh novel out there needs. You aren't going to be as aware of your bad writing habits. You aren't going to remember that you used a specific $5 word four pages ago and it's a bit too soon to do something like that again. You aren't going to be as quick to realize you rely too heavily on specific constructions and it can come off as grating in an audiobook. All of those things are the sort of issues a line editor tackles.
I just had a book that I was listening to, incredibly well-selling genre fiction novel, and I had to DNF + refund it, because the lack of line editing in it was painfully obvious. I'm not going to hear typos in an audiobook, so it wasn't a lack of proofreading; it was that the writing itself was weak and listening to it was frustrating me more than entertaining me. I think editors are absolutely critical, and I'm not talking about proofreaders. Anyone can get a book proofed pretty easily. Takes hiring a pro to get the actual writing side of your book really sorted out.
Yes that is true for sure. So editors do nitpick each word you use and I have zero experience with having line editing done but it seems like a basic necessity for having a somewhat decent manuscript. I completely regret publishing a bunch of books without having any form of line editing done at this point. I’m sure they need the necessary polishing.
I can understand listening to a painful book like that. I felt that way about my book while listening to the narrator slowly put it together- I began to notice the same words and similar sentence structure being used and it sounded not so good. It’s true, a book should be somewhat entertaining. Thanks for the input.
If you are skilled in editing I guess its possible to do yourself. I'm not, nor proofreading. Honestly, my editors have worked magic. I use line editing only. I haven't felt the need for a dev edit yet.
There are three kinds of editing. Copy, proof, and developmental (actually a few more, but for brevity’s sake). Some people here are only referencing the proofreading or line copy side.
I HIGHLY recommend a developmental editor.
The good news is you can always update your books and re-release them as new editions.
Whether you need to or not depends on sales and your skill as an author, editor, and genre specific market knowledge.
Tbh, the value of an editor mostly comes from their knowledge of genre and market. The second most value comes from their developmental process. Line & copy editing only really matter if there's good market fit and a good story being told.
Had no idea you can release them as new editions however that might be done- it’s definitely something to ponder upon. I wonder what that good market fit is in your opinion. Thanks
Generally, editors connect the creative to the market by knowing the business side of what sells and what consumers of a particular genre want from it. Then, they use their literary skills to help their authors produce the best work possible which fits their genre's market. This is also why innovative work is a lot harder to bring to market and really requires a talented editor to see where it fits in commercially.
If you want to have a more specific conversation, feel free to dm. I'd be happy to share my experiences and kook forward to learning from yours.
You don’t need an editor and you don’t need a proofreader. There are flaws in humans anyway and the fact that they cost more is laughable. Use AI if you need to like Jasper or Grammerly. It’s no different - in fact it’s better. Yes, I’ve compared multiple times. You would be using some sentences by the editor not truly written by you anyway - it might as well be by a computer that has analyzed your tone and your writing style beforehand. Sorry but the truth hurts. These databases of knowledge are better than Joe Schmoe - no matter how many years of experience
Reading or critiquing circles are cheap and (somewhat) effective methods to edit your work, if done for a hobby and not income. I am on a critiquing site and I spend hours a day looking at peoples work for flow issues and plot holes and spelling issues. I am not the best at word smithing by a long shot, but it is one way for me to get better.
Everyone needs a proofreader (even if it's a robot). You don't need a story editor if you can learn to switch hats and just do a critical read of your own work. The idea that it takes you and a stranger to write your book sounds very beneficial for that stranger — but if you're self-publishing, you are already thriving outside of the middle-men economy.
Take your 7 books and create an outline of each one. Map out the story arcs and character development. Use your choice of hero's journey or Harmon's story circle to workshop everything. To catch the small stuff, like "Wasn't his jacket blue in the last chapter?", read you own books and make notes.
Then put your writer hat back on, sit on a throne made of the $20K you just saved and make the revisions. You'll emerge from the process a much better writer.
It honestly just depends on how good of a writer you are. I've only written 2 books so far, and without an editor, I have had no complaints regarding grammar, punctuation, or plot aside from it being 'too gory' to some (but not gory at all to others, of course). That being said, you should definitely use something like grammarly or prowritingaid (I use the free version of the latter), and you should try to have at least 1-2 good beta readers to really tell you how the plot, characters, flow, etc feel. I also self-edit about 3-4 times. At least 1 for all the aforementioned things, then grammar, then I have the not for resale printed and edit it 2 more times, at least.
But tl;dr, you do not need to pay for an editor if you're genuinely really good at writing. The downside is a lot of people think they are geniuses but are really just subpar and really do need the extra help. So it's up to your discretion. For you, it's only a mistake if you didn't self-edit well enough
A few things I have found that have helped me:
* Put it onto something like a tablet. It helps you go into "reader" mode easier.
* Use free labor if you have it available. My wife and kids get all the early drafts.
* Find something like Grammarly or ProWritingAid. They aren't perfect, but they catch a lot of simple errors, and at the least force you to examine things closely. (Grammarly hates commas, and PWA hates adverbs as far as I can tell.)
* If you can spare the time, set something near final aside for a month. Come back to it on a tablet. I just did this and found 80+ issues.
* Try to find an analytical outside proofreader. Gave the above draft to a nephew about to graduate with a CS degree. He had several well thought out critiques and suggestions. A lot of them were from early in writing process before I had ironed out the whole plot. A relatively small amount of tweaking has things much improved. He also helped me zero in on clarity issues.
Going forward, I'm wrapping up story development for the next book. I'm definitely falling into the outliner category now, and I also strive for clean copy. Those aren't for everybody, but they work for me. Find what approach works for you and embrace it.
Are your books selling? That's the real question.
You need a proofreader to catch spelling and punctuation. An editor should catch the big stuff: plot holes, major inconsistencies, errors. If you can catch it yourself, then fine
I was my own proofreader, and pretty much everything else. I wrote my book as a hobby for therapy, I then started editing it as I read it myself over and over. I even design my book cover by myself, learning image editing from scratch on a bootleg laptop. Where there's a will, there's a way.
Honestly thank you for this. I always read you should have an editor and should hire a cover artist and I get it… but I don’t have the money so I have to make it work with what I got.
Of course, but also take into account that, even by doing your best, if it turns out "not so well" just accept it before grinding yet again to make it right. Even so, always try your best, not only with your own book but also at everything you do in life (this is also a message I used in a plot in my book at some point).
This is true, but it's also a part of the reason there's a huge difference in quality between self-published stuff and traditionally published. A much higher percentage of self-published work, covers, and quality is absolute garbage. Not saying it's yours, but you only have to hang out in the KU library for a day, skimming sneak peeks, to see that.
Welp, I only have a single review with 5 stars in the Spanish version and not a single sell so I know the value of my work. Your words are so close and I accept them truly. Even so, I still do my best.
hey man, I never said that I didn't do the same thing! But I wonder how much we all think we're the exception instead of the rule - statistically, it's just not possible. I also do not have the cash for all the various editors I'm supposed to have, much less marketing and such. I do pay for all my covers, though. I know that I don't have the eye for it.
Everyone thinks they are the exception to the rule, alright. That's human nature and the effect of society also. Just be humble and do your best. That's my mantra.
This ^ It’s called developmental editing, and my editor cost $8000 a book, but then she’s edited NY Times Bestselling authors you’ve heard of. You can find editors cheaper, of course.
> and my editor cost $8000 a book OMG! This is not feasible for the aspiring authorpreneur who needs to write several books a year.
There are cheaper options. KM Weiland has a list of editors that charge less than $8000. If your book is around 350 pages, it'll be around $1.5K to $2.5K. Her website is [helpingwritersbecomeauthors.com](https://helpingwritersbecomeauthors.com) Edit: The price also differs for experienced writers vs new writers (more expensive).
Amazing! I am open to spending this amount as well… just out of curiosity, is your book selling well? And do you think it was worth the money?
My book won’t be released until nov. I’m an outlier, I did weird (wrong) things and got lucky with the right people at the right time. Be careful spending that much on a book until you’ve gotten a LOT of honest praise (not just sycophants who love you). :) As to whether I thought it was worth the money, well, that will depend on how well it sells. But before that comes to pass, I would say yes. Now keep in mind that I did this with an industry veteran who has edited people whose names you’ve heard, so they really have a track record of knowing what they’re talking about, knowing the business, understanding publishers, understanding marketing, and understanding story arcs, and so forth. I’m not saying that cheaper editors won’t, but given everything that I received, I would say it was well worth it, but whether I will repeat that or not depends on how well it does. The biggest decision I have to deal with right now is do I actually WANT a publisher if one is willing to pick the book up, because I can make a lot more with the attention that the book is garnering without one, but then I can be found in a Barnes & Noble‘s with one, which is every author’s dream.
One last thing. Don’t over edit. I did that once and it just makes everything sterile. I remember using AC and thinking adverbs are bad, this is bad, that is bad. I literally edited to 100% score and it was just awful. I’ve now found my happy place with adverbs, filler words, etc. Also, make sure you’re checking for repeated words. I don’t necessarily mean words repeated more than once in the chapter, though you should look at that, as well. But I mean words that are repeated within a fixed area. Say the same one to three paragraphs. That will elevate things, as well.
Yes that’s so true. It’s important to look for repeated words and I wonder if editors do that. I did a word search on a book recently and used the word task way too many times. I noticed that with my writing my vocabulary almost seems limited and I use the same words far too often. What is ac? I’ve heard people use grammarly to edit.
Ac.. auto correct im assuming
More likely AutoCrit which is an online writing and editing application geared towards fiction writers. It has built in AI driven analysis tools that they claim can replace a developmental edit, proofreader, and beta reader.
The AI developmental thing is horrible. Maybe it will get better one day. The editing and compare is gold.
It can be a little hit or miss but I have noticed it's gotten better from when it first dropped a couple months ago - so I'm cautiously optimistic. Will it replace real beta readers? Probably not, but I found the summary and plot hole check decently helpful when I just re ran it on my last draft. Import and export are a bit crap from a formatting perspective though.
Autocrit. The best money I ever spent aside from ProWritingAid, and my secret weapon. I just assumed being a writer’s sub that everyone was already using it.
I dont really *look* for repeated words. If a repeat word jumps out at us, we'll flag it. If it's the best word, we won't. That's how I do for my writers. Check out some Hemingway for examples of simple, clear, concise writing. In my experience, the digital tools and AI act indiscriminately, so they will flag stuff that definitely does not need revised. If you can sort out the good notes from the bad, use them. Read your stuff out loud. That's the very best way to tell if your prose is working. The best digital tool I use as an editor is PerfectIt. It finds inconsistencies that are hard to notice. Especially when you get into made-up fantasy words and spellings.
I always look for repeated words when I edit for clients!
A book needs editing. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to hire an editor. Plenty of authors, myself included, do their own editing. Whether you're capable of doing that or not depends on your grammar skill level, ability to detach/focus, and other factors. Are your books full of errors? If so, then perhaps you did make a mistake. If not, then it doesn't matter. And if your books are self-published, you can always go back and fix any errors you notice.
Oh wow that’s a relief to know. I felt like an idiot for sure for publishing all of these books with no editor but now I feel like it’s possible since others do it as well. Thanks for the tip
Lots of people do. Especially now that we have tools to assist in that. But developmental editing is something that you need an editor for. Believe it or not, AI isn’t horrible at it but only in a very basic way. But, it can give you valuable and viable suggestions if you feed it the entire document. Some AI models will allow this. But I only suggest this if you have no other option. No beta readers, no cheap or free editors, you’re broke, etc. A good developmental editor will really elevate your work and is worth their weight in gold. It’s like when you write that chapter that makes you say, “Hot damn! This is the best thing I’ve written. Everything just comes together. I’ve evolved.” They will take that and make you and it even better (if they are a good editor).
My mentor always taught me “your next work is your best work.” Just keep moving forward. 👍
It's not detrimental to have an editor (of any kind, there are several kinds of editors for different things), and you can by chance get a good book without one. The above with the caveat that sometimes you hire an editor who's just bad, or you're not on the same wave length with what you want to achieve with your prose. The job of the editor is have an outside perspective for the text. They ding you for idiosyncrasies within the plot, the world building, the prose. For tautology, for pace, for forgetting plot points. And they're not fixing the text for you, they'll just suggest edits which you are 100% free to ignore. Imo, if you can't afford an editor (and many can't), I'd suggest giving your manuscripts a "baking" period before you start editing from the 1st draft. As in give yourself time to forget what you've written and disengage with it. Write something else. Travel the world. Have kids. Idk. Point is that when you come back to that 1st draft, you've largely forgotten what you've written, so you can look at it more objectively and without the emotional investment you had when you finished that 1st draft. Makes it easier to recognize if the text actually flows and spot those plot holes (and the bits where you may have written "Italian suit" when your fantasy world has no Italy).
I mean there’s an argument for not having one, but that said, a book can’t get worse with one. You read your own work sooo many times you’ll miss a lot. You’d be shocked. And it’s simple things like a missing comma, or missing “S” to make things plural. Small stuff that should be obvious, but your mind casually glosses over it. I’d definitely recommend getting one. There’s a handful of websites out there to get one. Make sure you do your research though! It’s very easy to spend a lot of money and get no value out of it. Also, ask around if you know any fellow writers and can get referenced. Or if anyone in your writing circle is into that. Heck, I’ll even throw my name in if you’d want to check it out. Becomeweirder.com ! But all in all, if you’re looking to sell then I would recommend one. If it’s just a hobby or you share it with friends and a writing circle, it’s probably not needed. Good luck though! It’s never too late to find an editor!
It’s not even commas. I once had a guy being summoned to kill a baby who hadn’t even been born until he arrived at the castle. Which means that he was summoned for something that hadn’t even happened yet. NO ONE caught this (especially me because as I was in too deep) except the editor. Also another where a guy was eavesdropping. The person he was talking to nodded in response. Well how the hell did he know that if he couldn’t see them? Didn’t catch it, but one of my beta readers did. I consider myself a much better editor than a writer, or author, as I used to edit video game websites and news sites back in the day. Sometimes as a writer you can’t see the forest for the trees.
They can if the editor is untrained and inexperienced with your genre.
"a book can’t get worse with one" It definitely can. A lot of cheap editors on Fiverr just take your money and run your manuscript through something like Grammarly or some other editor, accepting all suggestions without giving it any thought. There are also editors who like to rewrite everything in their own style, which can sometimes not be suitable for the genre you're writing in or mash with your style of writing. So you do indeed need to be very careful.
Thanks! Yes you’re so right you definitely tend to just ignore small or minor mistakes here and there it’s so common. Thanks for the recommendation I’d definitely appreciate if you could check out my work possibly. I didn’t realize things could get worse with an editor but you’re right it’s very possible. Thank you.
Feel free to shoot me a message on here if you’d like!
There are definitely bad editors, too. I had an experience of one, and it included grammar errors starting from the MC's name (simple, short name) and my OWN name, the assessment was a bit of a mess and he missed the main element of the story, focusing on trivial and smaller, insignificant details and suggested adding details that were already there(I even double checked in doubt).
One of my reviewers picked up a vulgar word. That word was ‘shit.’ I didn’t write it myself but it was inside a quote. It affected the rating. I was shocked that it caused outrage in this modern era of filthy language and moral decline.
Just want to say that I read over 50ish books in the last 13 months, and over half of them had typos/errors, and some were from well-known authors. I was actually shocked.
Brandon Sanderson even has issues with spelling, capitalization, and a gazillion other things. Very few writers are absolutely perfect.
That’s true. But, I’m not sure that applies when you are not Brandon Sanderson. Before you’re lauded and proven with 100,000 awesome reviews, readers will not tolerate many errors. Do I still read Sanderson all the way through despite mistakes? Sure. Would I do the same for “insert unknown name here”? No.
That was not my point. My point is that everyone can use an editor and we all make mistakes.
Wow well that’s not good to know but I don’t feel so bad now. I try to make sure they’re perfect but they’re usually not. That is surprising
Most ppl assume you mean proofreading when you say editing. Proofreading is like the last 10% and requires the least skill—hence ai tools, grammarly etc. The real value of editing is long before proofreading, beginning with the developmental stage. If you consider proofreading “editing,” then you’ll assume a $100 software can cover it. Once you find (very difficult) and invest in an exceptional editor, the value they bring will impress you beyond your expectations. That’s what happened to me during my fifth year of writing. Now, I’d never work without him. I don’t mind sharing him if anyone would like to pm me.
I was coming to say the same thing. My editor is worth her weight in gold. She finds so many ways to make my stories better. I'm also more than happy to share her with anyone who PM's.
Why not join critique groups. There's free ones on line. Authors critique eachother, some are gold.
I wouldn't bother at all. Why spend more money on a product that won't make more because you edit it. In addition, this entire market of editors is very predatory in nature, and I don't think it produces good content. I struggled finding editors, and many editors didn't really offer much. I ended up hiring a development editor, and it exploded in my face. I got someone who lied about their background, then tried to extort money from me. I then got a free beta reader who was also an editor, and she said I didn't even need an editor. Though she will be happy to accept thousands for it, she really didn't see a need for it either. But I guess it depends on your quality of work, and how you write. If your work is very poor, just create a new pen name and start writing high quality content with them. I don't think I would hire editors though, unless you wanted to learn more about how to write a story and really struggling with the plot development.
That's interesting to know and what a perspective. I had no clue editors could be this difficult to find though it seems like common sense that they would be because it'd probably based on their experience, expertise etc. Sometimes it's true a person may not even need an editor thanks!
I think there are good ones, they just are very expensive. I personally work with other authors, and we work together on Editing our stories. It actually works out, because editing takes a ton of time to get to read it. Part of my problem with developers editors, is that my book is very complicated and detailed. The other Author I worked with red it a dozen times to get very familiar with the content. They struggled doing a good job earlier on, and many of their early recommended where not very good because they didn't know the material well. If your book is simplier then mine, or if your not Anal retentive like me, or if you make enough money on your books, I would change my recommendation. Also, It might be more valuable as a first time author, then as a 9th time author. And some people know how to make a good story, and can learn the parts they need, and can get by without it. Many of these types of edits though are new, and where not found in older forms of publishing, or was done less frequently. There seems to be a push for Editors now, as it makes more money for the groups that promote it.
Are your books selling? Do people seem to like them? If you're getting by fine without paying for an editor, you probably haven't made any fatal error. Maybe an editor could help you make stuff flow and read better. But maybe you have the ability to clean it up enough yourself. You'll find that the average person doesn't notice little mistakes anyway. As long as the spelling and grammar are correct and there are no major plot inconsistencies, most people won't notice anything wrong and thus, you didn't need to really hire any help. Also, editors don't always make the story better. You have to be careful about who you hire. It could end up a huge waste of money that erases your voice as an author or enforces bad practices.
Actually they’re not selling and they’re not too bad but I do feel an editor could definitely help with a lot of things. Most of my books are self-help books and now I find myself writing in the same style and pattern and dishing out one book after another and it makes no sense. I write books almost the way a person completes a short-lived task or hobby. It does seem as if the grammar and spelling are alright then you’re on your way to doing decently. I do feel an editor could help it’s just that they cost a lot of money and I’m not sure if it’s worth it though it seems to be for sure. I’m sure most of the successful authors more than likely use professional editors or I’m assuming this. Then again most people’s books just look better than mine for some reason or better thought out for sure.
You've got 7 books published and none of them are selling? Have you had beta readers read through your books to give feedback? Even if you can't afford an editor, you should ask someone to read over one of your books to see if there's anything stopping it from selling. You can find people online who do it for free, or pay someone on a site like Fiverr. I have a beta reader working on the first two chapters of my current project right now. I only paid 7 euros for her to read 10k words and send a detailed report with feedback + highlight any mistakes in the document.
thanks yes I just figured the market is over-saturated with books and most of my books are self-help books so I don’t expect people to buy them now, but I’ve dished out about eight books and it’s ridiculous. Not a single book is selling. They're not terrible but they’re not amazing or great I think. I don't think my books will sell unless they're ffiction. I did get some sales through Ingram spark though.
To be clear, the editing may not change the sales. Lack of sales could also be poor marketing. You should get some feedback from unbiased readers within your target demographic before deciding whether or not you need to hire someone.
If books aren't selling, it means that no one actually read through them. Thus, the problem is not necessarily the content but more likely cover/blurb/lack of marketing.
That’s possible and so true. I thought maybe people just didn’t go to my pages but it’s probably all of those things thanks
You only really need an editor to call you out on your nonsense and stupid ideas. For example, one of my early stories involved multiple scenes that all took place in a plain white void (it was a sci-fi story and made sense in context) as both a part of the world-building and as a cop-out to avoid describing the scenery (I didn't want to risk the settings for each scene distracting from the dialog). My editor rightly called out that this didn't really work for multiple reasons and suggested I flesh out a small but unique & grounded setting for each scene. This ultimately amounted to just one or two extra sentences here and there, but the story is much better because of this, and I really needed someone else to call me out on that. Now, if unlike young me you don't try and pull dumb nonsense like that, or if you're good at calling yourself out on your nonsense and looking at your story through fresh eyes, then you're probably fine without an editor. On the other hand, if while writing you catch yourself thinking "no one will notice if I take a shortcut here" or something along those lines, an editor might be a good idea.
I’m good at coming up with too much nonsense. If they are anything like us, they need someone to call it out :)
The best example I can cite for why additional eyes/external opinions are crucial would be the Star Wars films. George Lucas may have written and directed the first Star Wars movie, but his friends like Steven Spielberg and Brian De Palma, not to mention his wife at the time, were instrumental in the editing process (the original cut was apparently like four hours long and an incomprehensible mess). Spielberg basically told him what to cut and his wife re-edited the whole thing for him. It stands the test of time. Conversely, Lucas wrote, directed, produced, and oversaw the editing for the Star Wars prequels (I get there are people out there who like the prequels, and that's perfecty fine -- I'm just not one of them). Point is, by the prequels Lucas has completely insulated himself from external eyes, and the results, in my opinion, speak for themselves (there's a book out there, How Star Wars Was Saved in the Editing Room, that's pretty neat). For a more personal example, I let my brother read my novel manuscript before publishing, and he told me one of the main characters did something at the midway point that made him completety lose sympathy with her. I'm glad he told me, because the changes I implemented made the story and her arc stronger. If you can't afford an editor, at the very least join a writer's critique group. You'll get accustomed to having your work critiqued, and if it's a good group, it'll make your writing stronger (I just presented a short story for critique this past week, and everyone pointed out I switched POVs several times mid-paragraph -- when I wrote it, I thought it flowed logically, but apparently not). I fixed the POV, and now the story's stronger. At this point, I'm not sure I'd bother "fixing" what's been published. It will be too overwhelming for you. Start afresh with something new and get it in front of some beta readers. Best of luck!
As an editor, I can confidently say some authors need me more than others. It truly depends on your ability to self-edit and what your writing groups have looked like. Critique groups can be a great way to get in-depth developmental edits without paying! However, even with those groups, I recommend at least a hired proofreader!
A good editor is a luxury. Someone who understands your writing, can point out your blind spots, and declutters. A bad editor is pain. Someone who squeezes the life out of your work and shoves it into a vanilla cookie cutter.
You really don't know what would be different until an editor starts to work on it. I find in blind to some of my own habits and my editor caught a ton of stuff that helped me. With that said, I have since purchased editing tools which has helped a lot with prep before I send things in for human editing.
@ OP, with self publishing you need to find the right balance for you and your intended audience. You don't want to over capitalize spending hundreds on editors etc if you are releasing something that is fairly low content and simple, or is unlikely to reach a large audience (due to no marketing) because you will not get that money back. Of course, you should review your manuscript sufficiently to satisfy yourself there are no typos and that it's as polished as it can be, but you don't have to follow a cookie cutter approach to self publishing and hire an editor just because others do. Their circumstances, books, target audience etc may be very different to your own. TLDR: be careful with lining the pockets of others (editors, formatters etc) if it is foreseeable you will never get a return on that money. That's when self-publishing turns into a form of vanity publishing.
That’s a very interesting perspective to have thanks. Yes it’s true you more than likely don’t want to spend too much if your book isn’t going to capitalize on profits, yet you also want something that’s presentable and at least grammatically correct in some format. I would personally still want a perfect as can be book, but I haven’t taken my own advice yet. It seems most peoples work is pretty polished, and most feel the same way- they want to put something close to perfection out there Thanks for the input
I think one of the big things people are missing here is in regards to the type of editing books need. Beta readers/friends can help catch pesky typos and general mistakes, so you can get away with not paying an editor for that. But friends and beta readers are not going to be able to line edit your book, which is what pretty much every fresh novel out there needs. You aren't going to be as aware of your bad writing habits. You aren't going to remember that you used a specific $5 word four pages ago and it's a bit too soon to do something like that again. You aren't going to be as quick to realize you rely too heavily on specific constructions and it can come off as grating in an audiobook. All of those things are the sort of issues a line editor tackles. I just had a book that I was listening to, incredibly well-selling genre fiction novel, and I had to DNF + refund it, because the lack of line editing in it was painfully obvious. I'm not going to hear typos in an audiobook, so it wasn't a lack of proofreading; it was that the writing itself was weak and listening to it was frustrating me more than entertaining me. I think editors are absolutely critical, and I'm not talking about proofreaders. Anyone can get a book proofed pretty easily. Takes hiring a pro to get the actual writing side of your book really sorted out.
Yes that is true for sure. So editors do nitpick each word you use and I have zero experience with having line editing done but it seems like a basic necessity for having a somewhat decent manuscript. I completely regret publishing a bunch of books without having any form of line editing done at this point. I’m sure they need the necessary polishing. I can understand listening to a painful book like that. I felt that way about my book while listening to the narrator slowly put it together- I began to notice the same words and similar sentence structure being used and it sounded not so good. It’s true, a book should be somewhat entertaining. Thanks for the input.
If you are skilled in editing I guess its possible to do yourself. I'm not, nor proofreading. Honestly, my editors have worked magic. I use line editing only. I haven't felt the need for a dev edit yet.
There are three kinds of editing. Copy, proof, and developmental (actually a few more, but for brevity’s sake). Some people here are only referencing the proofreading or line copy side. I HIGHLY recommend a developmental editor.
I say — big deal, hire an editor now and publish a 2nd edition of all your books.
Just use an AI based editing program + grammarly
The good news is you can always update your books and re-release them as new editions. Whether you need to or not depends on sales and your skill as an author, editor, and genre specific market knowledge. Tbh, the value of an editor mostly comes from their knowledge of genre and market. The second most value comes from their developmental process. Line & copy editing only really matter if there's good market fit and a good story being told.
Had no idea you can release them as new editions however that might be done- it’s definitely something to ponder upon. I wonder what that good market fit is in your opinion. Thanks
Generally, editors connect the creative to the market by knowing the business side of what sells and what consumers of a particular genre want from it. Then, they use their literary skills to help their authors produce the best work possible which fits their genre's market. This is also why innovative work is a lot harder to bring to market and really requires a talented editor to see where it fits in commercially. If you want to have a more specific conversation, feel free to dm. I'd be happy to share my experiences and kook forward to learning from yours.
You don’t need an editor and you don’t need a proofreader. There are flaws in humans anyway and the fact that they cost more is laughable. Use AI if you need to like Jasper or Grammerly. It’s no different - in fact it’s better. Yes, I’ve compared multiple times. You would be using some sentences by the editor not truly written by you anyway - it might as well be by a computer that has analyzed your tone and your writing style beforehand. Sorry but the truth hurts. These databases of knowledge are better than Joe Schmoe - no matter how many years of experience
You don't have to hire an editor to edit ALL of your books. Just the ones you want people to read.
If you have the funds from your job and other book sells, then perhaps publish those new books under a different pen name.
Reading or critiquing circles are cheap and (somewhat) effective methods to edit your work, if done for a hobby and not income. I am on a critiquing site and I spend hours a day looking at peoples work for flow issues and plot holes and spelling issues. I am not the best at word smithing by a long shot, but it is one way for me to get better.
Everyone needs a proofreader (even if it's a robot). You don't need a story editor if you can learn to switch hats and just do a critical read of your own work. The idea that it takes you and a stranger to write your book sounds very beneficial for that stranger — but if you're self-publishing, you are already thriving outside of the middle-men economy. Take your 7 books and create an outline of each one. Map out the story arcs and character development. Use your choice of hero's journey or Harmon's story circle to workshop everything. To catch the small stuff, like "Wasn't his jacket blue in the last chapter?", read you own books and make notes. Then put your writer hat back on, sit on a throne made of the $20K you just saved and make the revisions. You'll emerge from the process a much better writer.
It honestly just depends on how good of a writer you are. I've only written 2 books so far, and without an editor, I have had no complaints regarding grammar, punctuation, or plot aside from it being 'too gory' to some (but not gory at all to others, of course). That being said, you should definitely use something like grammarly or prowritingaid (I use the free version of the latter), and you should try to have at least 1-2 good beta readers to really tell you how the plot, characters, flow, etc feel. I also self-edit about 3-4 times. At least 1 for all the aforementioned things, then grammar, then I have the not for resale printed and edit it 2 more times, at least. But tl;dr, you do not need to pay for an editor if you're genuinely really good at writing. The downside is a lot of people think they are geniuses but are really just subpar and really do need the extra help. So it's up to your discretion. For you, it's only a mistake if you didn't self-edit well enough
A few things I have found that have helped me: * Put it onto something like a tablet. It helps you go into "reader" mode easier. * Use free labor if you have it available. My wife and kids get all the early drafts. * Find something like Grammarly or ProWritingAid. They aren't perfect, but they catch a lot of simple errors, and at the least force you to examine things closely. (Grammarly hates commas, and PWA hates adverbs as far as I can tell.) * If you can spare the time, set something near final aside for a month. Come back to it on a tablet. I just did this and found 80+ issues. * Try to find an analytical outside proofreader. Gave the above draft to a nephew about to graduate with a CS degree. He had several well thought out critiques and suggestions. A lot of them were from early in writing process before I had ironed out the whole plot. A relatively small amount of tweaking has things much improved. He also helped me zero in on clarity issues. Going forward, I'm wrapping up story development for the next book. I'm definitely falling into the outliner category now, and I also strive for clean copy. Those aren't for everybody, but they work for me. Find what approach works for you and embrace it.