Singaporeans are too used to visa-free travel that some don’t understand how troublesome it is to apply for visa. There are China friends who just want to watch some concerts overseas and had to apply for visas multiple times, and in countries like China, the visa rejection rate is higher for certain provinces so even if you have all the proper documents, you may be rejected
I had to apply for my Myanmar helper to go KL to visit family that escaped to Malaysia. It’s all sorts of infuriating. My mind cannot comprehend how come her passport is so weak until Malaysia also cannot go.
Whenever an article points out Singapore stuff comes out better at something, r/sg will go "BUT other country's blah blah blah is better."
Then when sg comes out bad, r/sg "haha sg is lousy country".
The fact is most of the average Singaporean won't be doing any better (or even worst) in another country.
Had a layover recently and didn’t even think about whether visa was required. Only remembered after a Chinese friend reminded me about it. Turns out didn’t need though 😂
Yep, I once had to go to Shanghai with a friend who's Vietnamese. She had to travel all the way to the Chinese embassy (if I remember correctly) just to apply for tourist visa, and need to book flights + hotel beforehand.
Meanwhile Singaporeans can just waltz in 15 days free with no issue (this was before the 30 days visa allowance).
Would you rather:
a) hold the no. 1 passport in the world and be visa free for 195 countries BUT you can only hold that one passport; or
2) be visa free in one less country but you can hold, for example, the no. 2, 3 and/or 4 passports simultaneously?
Passport is much more than just visa-free travel. If we are just about short term travel, then I'd take 1st option.
But if you are referring to citizenship as a whole, then definitely the second option, contingent on it being the "right" countries. Having a US citizenship (or at least green card) opens up \*huge\* career opportunities. But, be prepared to be globally taxed. Same working benefits extend to the EU (though imo less so).
>But if you are referring to citizenship as a whole
This was exactly the crux of my question. I'm seeing a number of responses about the ease of travel so I probably should have framed my question better, my bad
First option A. I don't plan on getting another country's citizenship so one arrives at the elegant conclusion that I must rely only on a single passport's strength.
Also, even if you are happy to do so, I don't imagine countries like Japan or the UK freely hand out their passports to anyone who asks.
Yes I'm aware. But that takes quite a lot of effort unless that country is pretty desperate for new citizens.
You'll need to find a good job (sponsoring your Visa) or get a degree there to fulfill those years. Then you'll usually end up with their PR equivalent. Even more conditions are needed such as further lengths of stay before various citizenship tests before finally getting that passport.
As someone who has lived in both US/UK (and enjoyed my time), I wouldn't bother as I don't really see the point of all that effort just to be a citizen of a country which I would never really call home.
maybe not you, but your kids might. if they subsequently want to live in those countries they will have to start from scratch vs inheriting citizenship. not to mention stuff like NS obligations
I mean, I'm not really responsible for that; SG on balance seems like a pretty good place to live. I would argue better than UK or US so I've got to hunt for somewhere even better I guess? Anyway, which country is best is subjective, they could end up loving freaking North Korea for all I know lol.
Yeah, I'm aware. I lived in the UK for some years. It's still not that easy just by the sheer time you have to spend there.
Unless you have no options back home, you really have to like living there. And even then, most of my SG friends would just stop at an ILR (their version of a PR), but I don't actually know anyone who bothered to become a UK citizen or would identify themselves as British.
> And even then, most of my SG friends would just stop at an ILR (their version of a PR), but I don't actually know anyone who bothered to become a UK citizen or would identify themselves as British.
That's probably more because Singapore doesn't allow dual citizenship.
I know people with other (good) passports who took up British citizenship pre-Brexit, because it offered them opportunities to move around the EU if needed.
I also know a few Singaporeans who supposedly took up British citizenship but didn't renounce their Singapore one. Eh, not my business to pry further.
Fair enough. I'm curious to see what the "power" of a passport means to each person. Must admit that I've always been proud of having a Singapore passport as it ranks highly/tops this list. But increasingly, I'm questioning my definition of the "power" of a passport & how that fits with my aspirations.
Honestly the first 50-80 passport won’t be much different to large majority of the population. How many people going to visit those couple of countries that doesn’t provide visa free ? I doubt the majority could even figure out where on earth it’s located.
But in terms of job opportunities, SG passport provide H1B1 while EU passport provide ability to live and work anywhere within EU.
It's not a super big deal if you have a developed country passport. I received a 10 year visa for China when my family went to visit. I spend more time renewing my passport every ten years.
Hmm? From my own circles it is \*very\* frustrating for people from the US (and certain other countries) to go to China. Small meetings with clients, academic and industrial conferences etc. Huge hassle. When was it that you got your 10 year visa? Things have changed a lot since.
The program started in 2016 or so and I have a few years left on mine. Americans overstate the hassle of visa application because it's an unfamiliar process. Indian visas are the only troublesome ones to get due to the volume of paperwork and number of requirements. Chinese visas are straightforward.
For me, I truly enjoy travelling widely and it's great that I rarely have to bother with an expensive and administratively complicted visa. I could pick any damn country in Europe and odds are I could just waltz in. This extends to the attitude of locals towards me; when I say I'm Singaporean, most adopt a more favourable stance as they assume (rightly or wrongly) that I'm wealthy, well-educated and well-behaved.
Ofc I can also expand the count to other privileges of the package I've received with the citizenship: efficient govt services/transport, awesome public safety/security, pretty multiracial/cosmopolitan society, country stability, low taxes, high incomes etc. This is weighed down a bit by NS and a more illiberal/soft authoritatian govt (but after experiencing living overseas in US/UK, I think I don't really care that much for western-style democracy).
Regarding your first point, you could also obtain all those benefits (waltzing into countries without being bogged down by expensive/administratively complicated visa processes) if you held one of the no. 2 passports, right? They only have one less visa free country. In fact, maybe having multiple passports may result in you being able to waltz into more than 195 countries visa free (someone should look into that lol)
I take on board your second point though & understand why for you one Singapore citizenship is more valuable than one citizenship EACH in countries A, B and C. Thank you for sharing!
True but Singapore not sleeping either. INCREASINGLY, Singapore passport is permitted to use e-gate / auto-gate on top of being visa free. So your waltz through customs is definitely faster and less troublesome than other passports.
Basically other countries trust our citizenship systems so much that they dont need to manually verify.
>Regarding your first point, you could also obtain all those benefits (waltzing into countries without being bogged down by expensive/administratively complicated visa processes) if you held one of the no. 2 passports, right?
I mean yeah lah, if I was a Japanese or something. But I'm not! Even I was allowed to hold both and given the option, I wouldn't want to be a Japanese citizen since they're not that accepting of different ethnicities (particularly when I don't speak the language).
Anyway, it doesn't detract Singapore's advantages just because a few other countries have similarly powerful passports. It's like saying "oh, I work at Google and earn 1 mil per year but Amazon also pays 900k per year, therefore Google's salary is bad" No what haha, it just means both companies pay good salaries. And even that is a bad comparison since it's easier to switch jobs than citizenships.
Prefer 2) so you can combine passports that give you travel flexibility as well as passports that open up access to other job markets, cheaper retirement options
Depends on my theoretical race. If I am holding on to Singapore Passport but mixed with French heritage, I would gladly switch over when the time is right. France allow citizenship by descent.
If both come as easily, then I'll pick option 2 but don't think it's that easy obtaining 2 passports. Honestly don't know the cons and difficulties of owning 2 passports though.
First option
You only ever need so much travel versatility. There are some countries you’ll never have a reason to ever visit
There’s no sense having multiple passports to juggle
First option for me. The logistics is easier. Also the net benefit deminishes by having too many passports. Non-zero chance of taking the wrong passport and making travelling more complex than it needs to be.
I find any EU passport way more powerful than either of them.
You can live and work in 27 countries without needing anything, just show up and get a job.
At the cost of maybe having a handful less countries with visa free travel.
French passport ranks like 4th in the world and differs from SG by only 1 or 2 countries, and then it gets EU privileges. SG passport is not that strong compared to Fr, IT, ES, etc.
Yes, this is an entirely sensible perspective.
EU passport = free to live and work anywhere in a $26 trillion economy of 450 million people.
US passport = free to live and work anywhere in a $28 trillion economy of 340 million people.
SG passport = free to have holidays and short business trips to those places without too much inconvenience, but live and work on a small island of $0.5 trillion / 5 million people.
You hit the nail on the head. Most Singaporeans aren't going to the countries a US or EU passport holder needs a visa for on a regular basis. If I fall on hard times I can rent out my condo, move to rural America, and support myself comfortably until I get on my feet. Singaporeans don't have such a luxury as a right which diminishes the actual power of the passport. The SG passport is still great to have even if power isn't as simple as visa free entries.
EU: show up to any member state and start living and working without any issue.
US: go to any state or territory and start living or working. You don't even need to register at all.
People move between low and high income areas freely based on personal circumstances all the time.
What do you mean quite hard though.
Free movement of labour is one of the main principles of the EU, and every example I've seen is pretty seamless. It's not just rich people professional jobs but skilled manual labour (tradies) and just unskilled jobs too.
I love it when I said "no need visa" to the scammer tuk tuk driver who tried to bring me to the fake visa office in Poipet.
Also the surreal feeling when breezing through the immigration checkpoint, while walking past a table full of backpackers huddling and filling in their customs/visa application form.
Singaporeans hold their ground and aren't known for abandoning their home country to seek a better life.
That's the sign of true statesmanship.
China, Philippines, India you name it, they'll board the first boat out of their town to run away instead of fixing things for the betterment of society.
That's why Singapore wins the trust of the world.
India has an “eye for an eye” visa stance. India doesn’t give visa-free travel to Sg because Sg doesn’t give visa-free travel to India. If you see the list of countries that allow India entry and which India allows entry for you’ll see that it’s about a carbon copy of one another.
They also apply similar scrutiny. I remember answering so many questions about my grandparents and great grandparents for my visa. I found the scrutiny amusing.
almost everyone requires a visa for india except japan, south korea and uae if i am not wrong which have voa + nepal and bhutan who they have free movement with. japan, south korea and uae all require visas for indians
imo, the reason isn’t eye for eye. i think india used to have a lax visa policy before 2008 but they had the 26/11 terrorist attacks in mumbai where one of the main culprits had an american passport and ever since then, they have heavily stepped up scrutiny for people coming from almost every country.
if you have ever applied for an indian visa, you’ll see how you have to answer so many questions regarding your background
Singaporeans are too used to visa-free travel that some don’t understand how troublesome it is to apply for visa. There are China friends who just want to watch some concerts overseas and had to apply for visas multiple times, and in countries like China, the visa rejection rate is higher for certain provinces so even if you have all the proper documents, you may be rejected
Why would they reject by provinces?
Some regions have higher occurrences of fraud or rules breaking from what I understand. Those trends are tracked internally
Saw on china_irl subreddit that a possibility is there are too many illegal overstayers from the blacklisted provinces.
People in some provinces have a higher tendency to overstay or illegally work in other countries
I had to apply for my Myanmar helper to go KL to visit family that escaped to Malaysia. It’s all sorts of infuriating. My mind cannot comprehend how come her passport is so weak until Malaysia also cannot go.
Probably because Malaysia had Rohingya issues. That's probably a factor
Don't Malaysia have visa-free travel for all ASEAN passports?
Except Myanmar.
Damn, TIL
I found it quite simple - applied it twice in the last 7 months.
It’s not like we can take her with us on day trips since application requires a proper address.
Yep, we really are blessed. Not many folks can hop from country to country on a long trip without worrying about visa approvals.
Whenever an article points out Singapore stuff comes out better at something, r/sg will go "BUT other country's blah blah blah is better." Then when sg comes out bad, r/sg "haha sg is lousy country". The fact is most of the average Singaporean won't be doing any better (or even worst) in another country.
Had a layover recently and didn’t even think about whether visa was required. Only remembered after a Chinese friend reminded me about it. Turns out didn’t need though 😂
Yep, I once had to go to Shanghai with a friend who's Vietnamese. She had to travel all the way to the Chinese embassy (if I remember correctly) just to apply for tourist visa, and need to book flights + hotel beforehand. Meanwhile Singaporeans can just waltz in 15 days free with no issue (this was before the 30 days visa allowance).
Would you rather: a) hold the no. 1 passport in the world and be visa free for 195 countries BUT you can only hold that one passport; or 2) be visa free in one less country but you can hold, for example, the no. 2, 3 and/or 4 passports simultaneously?
my brain can only hold one thing at a time
Weak 😔
Passport is much more than just visa-free travel. If we are just about short term travel, then I'd take 1st option. But if you are referring to citizenship as a whole, then definitely the second option, contingent on it being the "right" countries. Having a US citizenship (or at least green card) opens up \*huge\* career opportunities. But, be prepared to be globally taxed. Same working benefits extend to the EU (though imo less so).
>But if you are referring to citizenship as a whole This was exactly the crux of my question. I'm seeing a number of responses about the ease of travel so I probably should have framed my question better, my bad
Ahaha. Yeah, visa free travel is really only a fraction of a fraction of the benefits/costs of citizenship.
I rather ability to work in multiple countries without work visa.
First option A. I don't plan on getting another country's citizenship so one arrives at the elegant conclusion that I must rely only on a single passport's strength. Also, even if you are happy to do so, I don't imagine countries like Japan or the UK freely hand out their passports to anyone who asks.
most countries have a path to citizenship if you've lived there long enough (legally of course).
Yes I'm aware. But that takes quite a lot of effort unless that country is pretty desperate for new citizens. You'll need to find a good job (sponsoring your Visa) or get a degree there to fulfill those years. Then you'll usually end up with their PR equivalent. Even more conditions are needed such as further lengths of stay before various citizenship tests before finally getting that passport. As someone who has lived in both US/UK (and enjoyed my time), I wouldn't bother as I don't really see the point of all that effort just to be a citizen of a country which I would never really call home.
maybe not you, but your kids might. if they subsequently want to live in those countries they will have to start from scratch vs inheriting citizenship. not to mention stuff like NS obligations
I mean, I'm not really responsible for that; SG on balance seems like a pretty good place to live. I would argue better than UK or US so I've got to hunt for somewhere even better I guess? Anyway, which country is best is subjective, they could end up loving freaking North Korea for all I know lol.
Uk would be miles more simple compared to japan
Yeah, I'm aware. I lived in the UK for some years. It's still not that easy just by the sheer time you have to spend there. Unless you have no options back home, you really have to like living there. And even then, most of my SG friends would just stop at an ILR (their version of a PR), but I don't actually know anyone who bothered to become a UK citizen or would identify themselves as British.
Most people won’t not everyone will test it’s governments boundaries.
> And even then, most of my SG friends would just stop at an ILR (their version of a PR), but I don't actually know anyone who bothered to become a UK citizen or would identify themselves as British. That's probably more because Singapore doesn't allow dual citizenship. I know people with other (good) passports who took up British citizenship pre-Brexit, because it offered them opportunities to move around the EU if needed. I also know a few Singaporeans who supposedly took up British citizenship but didn't renounce their Singapore one. Eh, not my business to pry further.
Fair enough. I'm curious to see what the "power" of a passport means to each person. Must admit that I've always been proud of having a Singapore passport as it ranks highly/tops this list. But increasingly, I'm questioning my definition of the "power" of a passport & how that fits with my aspirations.
Honestly the first 50-80 passport won’t be much different to large majority of the population. How many people going to visit those couple of countries that doesn’t provide visa free ? I doubt the majority could even figure out where on earth it’s located. But in terms of job opportunities, SG passport provide H1B1 while EU passport provide ability to live and work anywhere within EU.
Visa free travel to China is \*not\* common even in the first 50-80. And whether you like China or not (I mostly don't), that is a big deal.
It's not a super big deal if you have a developed country passport. I received a 10 year visa for China when my family went to visit. I spend more time renewing my passport every ten years.
Hmm? From my own circles it is \*very\* frustrating for people from the US (and certain other countries) to go to China. Small meetings with clients, academic and industrial conferences etc. Huge hassle. When was it that you got your 10 year visa? Things have changed a lot since.
The program started in 2016 or so and I have a few years left on mine. Americans overstate the hassle of visa application because it's an unfamiliar process. Indian visas are the only troublesome ones to get due to the volume of paperwork and number of requirements. Chinese visas are straightforward.
What nationality are you, out of curiosity?
US.
For me, I truly enjoy travelling widely and it's great that I rarely have to bother with an expensive and administratively complicted visa. I could pick any damn country in Europe and odds are I could just waltz in. This extends to the attitude of locals towards me; when I say I'm Singaporean, most adopt a more favourable stance as they assume (rightly or wrongly) that I'm wealthy, well-educated and well-behaved. Ofc I can also expand the count to other privileges of the package I've received with the citizenship: efficient govt services/transport, awesome public safety/security, pretty multiracial/cosmopolitan society, country stability, low taxes, high incomes etc. This is weighed down a bit by NS and a more illiberal/soft authoritatian govt (but after experiencing living overseas in US/UK, I think I don't really care that much for western-style democracy).
Regarding your first point, you could also obtain all those benefits (waltzing into countries without being bogged down by expensive/administratively complicated visa processes) if you held one of the no. 2 passports, right? They only have one less visa free country. In fact, maybe having multiple passports may result in you being able to waltz into more than 195 countries visa free (someone should look into that lol) I take on board your second point though & understand why for you one Singapore citizenship is more valuable than one citizenship EACH in countries A, B and C. Thank you for sharing!
True but Singapore not sleeping either. INCREASINGLY, Singapore passport is permitted to use e-gate / auto-gate on top of being visa free. So your waltz through customs is definitely faster and less troublesome than other passports. Basically other countries trust our citizenship systems so much that they dont need to manually verify.
>Regarding your first point, you could also obtain all those benefits (waltzing into countries without being bogged down by expensive/administratively complicated visa processes) if you held one of the no. 2 passports, right? I mean yeah lah, if I was a Japanese or something. But I'm not! Even I was allowed to hold both and given the option, I wouldn't want to be a Japanese citizen since they're not that accepting of different ethnicities (particularly when I don't speak the language). Anyway, it doesn't detract Singapore's advantages just because a few other countries have similarly powerful passports. It's like saying "oh, I work at Google and earn 1 mil per year but Amazon also pays 900k per year, therefore Google's salary is bad" No what haha, it just means both companies pay good salaries. And even that is a bad comparison since it's easier to switch jobs than citizenships.
I think the point at play here is that Singapore doesn't allow dual citizenship while some other countries that top the list does.
Mostly I don’t want a Japanese passport because I don’t wanna be taxed like crazy, especially when I die, lol… it all belongs to Japan…
At least your passport will never be the stumbling block to your aspirations nor your holidays.
2 but because I am single and I want to work in other countries in my life
2）for easier access to different cultures and total freedom of movement in multiple countries.
Prefer 2) so you can combine passports that give you travel flexibility as well as passports that open up access to other job markets, cheaper retirement options
I'd rather have multiple citizenships tbh, it's quite annoying that we claim to be this global cosmopolitan city but yet you can't be a dual citizen.
Depends on my theoretical race. If I am holding on to Singapore Passport but mixed with French heritage, I would gladly switch over when the time is right. France allow citizenship by descent.
If both come as easily, then I'll pick option 2 but don't think it's that easy obtaining 2 passports. Honestly don't know the cons and difficulties of owning 2 passports though.
First option You only ever need so much travel versatility. There are some countries you’ll never have a reason to ever visit There’s no sense having multiple passports to juggle
First option for me. The logistics is easier. Also the net benefit deminishes by having too many passports. Non-zero chance of taking the wrong passport and making travelling more complex than it needs to be.
Doesn't really matter, travelling is overrated.
I find any EU passport way more powerful than either of them. You can live and work in 27 countries without needing anything, just show up and get a job. At the cost of maybe having a handful less countries with visa free travel.
French passport ranks like 4th in the world and differs from SG by only 1 or 2 countries, and then it gets EU privileges. SG passport is not that strong compared to Fr, IT, ES, etc.
Yes, this is an entirely sensible perspective. EU passport = free to live and work anywhere in a $26 trillion economy of 450 million people. US passport = free to live and work anywhere in a $28 trillion economy of 340 million people. SG passport = free to have holidays and short business trips to those places without too much inconvenience, but live and work on a small island of $0.5 trillion / 5 million people.
You hit the nail on the head. Most Singaporeans aren't going to the countries a US or EU passport holder needs a visa for on a regular basis. If I fall on hard times I can rent out my condo, move to rural America, and support myself comfortably until I get on my feet. Singaporeans don't have such a luxury as a right which diminishes the actual power of the passport. The SG passport is still great to have even if power isn't as simple as visa free entries.
Falling on hard times assumes no condo to rent out, no?
No.
Yes and it also means other EU folks can come freely to your country to work
On paper, yes but realistically within the country, unless you are rich or working for free, it’s quite hard.
EU: show up to any member state and start living and working without any issue. US: go to any state or territory and start living or working. You don't even need to register at all. People move between low and high income areas freely based on personal circumstances all the time.
What do you mean quite hard though. Free movement of labour is one of the main principles of the EU, and every example I've seen is pretty seamless. It's not just rich people professional jobs but skilled manual labour (tradies) and just unskilled jobs too.
Me: boss can apply leave go holiday or not, since our passport strong. Boss: coincide with mine leh, so cannot
Now Japanese people really passport strong but currency weak for travel
Solution: they should rent out their passports
I love it when I said "no need visa" to the scammer tuk tuk driver who tried to bring me to the fake visa office in Poipet. Also the surreal feeling when breezing through the immigration checkpoint, while walking past a table full of backpackers huddling and filling in their customs/visa application form.
Bouta take a trip to Baghdad boys
LMAO, right when the Yen is at it's lowest. GG Japanese planning to travel.
Excuse me, Singapore does to Japan?
I had no idea that's how they determined the most powerful passport
I love it when my passport beats me to a bloody mess. Overpower me milord!
We are number one! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfYnvDL0Qcw&t=28s
This is only news in Singapore
Singaporeans hold their ground and aren't known for abandoning their home country to seek a better life. That's the sign of true statesmanship. China, Philippines, India you name it, they'll board the first boat out of their town to run away instead of fixing things for the betterment of society. That's why Singapore wins the trust of the world.
lmao but we go india still need visa. qn mark
India has an “eye for an eye” visa stance. India doesn’t give visa-free travel to Sg because Sg doesn’t give visa-free travel to India. If you see the list of countries that allow India entry and which India allows entry for you’ll see that it’s about a carbon copy of one another.
They also apply similar scrutiny. I remember answering so many questions about my grandparents and great grandparents for my visa. I found the scrutiny amusing.
almost everyone requires a visa for india except japan, south korea and uae if i am not wrong which have voa + nepal and bhutan who they have free movement with. japan, south korea and uae all require visas for indians imo, the reason isn’t eye for eye. i think india used to have a lax visa policy before 2008 but they had the 26/11 terrorist attacks in mumbai where one of the main culprits had an american passport and ever since then, they have heavily stepped up scrutiny for people coming from almost every country. if you have ever applied for an indian visa, you’ll see how you have to answer so many questions regarding your background
But who will go through all that just to go to India 😂
i mean people don’t just travel for leisure. they travel for business too and with india’s growing economy especially
I wish I could get a passport from Japan. such a powerful country.