You can’t build a roster through free agency. We made bad moves years ago that has led to more bad moves due to timelines etc. Now we are in scramble mode to save Joel’s best years and turning into that team who grips onto hope while continuing to blow assets
Nuggets play so well because it’s constant ball movement and team basketball. Jokic doesn’t get the ball in the post and guys stand around and wait for their moment. The style of play always has guys ready. When Joel needs a breather this roster loses their minds because there’s no flow to the team. I tried to write something quickly but theres still a lot more to it. I don’t believe it’s just because Nuggets hit their shots.
ESPN ran an article not too long about with the headline quote being Jokic saying their current group had to play together for 2-3 years before they even fully understood Mike Malone’s system. We haven’t had consistent enough coaching or role players to even begin to build year over year chemistry that it takes to watch a team go from potential to legit contender
I’ve been preaching this for so long, thank you @chrirJ. Team chemistry is what wins championships, all of these contenders cores have atleast 3-5 seasons playing together. Instead all we ever do is cry about trades every year that prevents us from establishing an actual identity.
This is the biggest part. People think tobi is just hated because he doesn’t play to his contract. It’s literally been his contract existing that has knee capped this team from building a true quality roster
Too many delusional fans have convinced themselves that a back-up guard who can’t make open layups was the key to unlocking our success.
Melton has never been what people imagine him to be.
I watched half of the Celtics game last night. Their 4th best player scored 22 points in the first half. We can’t compete with that balance. Or Denver. Those two teams are a cut above the rest.
And the team was put together not to be the best team possible for this year but to have maximum flexibility to build a team for next year. Basically this year we only signed or traded for guys that were free agents after this year or guys that had non guaranteed contracts after this year. Look at the roster only Embiid and Paul Reed are signed past this year. And Paul reeds contract is only guaranteed past this year if we make it out of the 1st round of the playoffs. So this team wasn't really put together to win a championship this year it was put together to give us one last chance after this year to build a legitimate team around Embiid.
LOL. This team has won the least amount of games in a semi healthy Embiid era(Yeah, I’ll hit them below the belt because 16 of our 35 losses can be attributed to their pathetic performances)
It amazes me how this team can clank after clank and people still blindly say this stuff.
No, they’re not the best team in the Joel era. The 2021-22 team clears them easily somehow with Seth Curry and Danny Green
yea i didnt get to watch our superteam come up short in the 80s only to fucking annihilate in 83. wish i did tho. Got to watch AI fuck up the lakers tho
The reality is the Sixers have not been a well run franchise through their history. I’d say we are currently somewhere in the middle, certainly not ruined. Those of us that watch Eddie Jordan coached teams or Doug Moe coached teams knows. We watched Clarence Weatherspoon be our best player. We had to watch the Sixers draft Shawn Bradley watch Keith freaking van horn. There’s been much darker days than today.
Lowkey what the fuck did he even do that's worse than Elton signing Al horford Ben and Tobi to 500 trillion dollar contracts.
I mean Josh Harris is probably an idiot and a money hungry asshole but tf did he do that's responsible for the dozens of braindead basketball decisions and lack of culture on this team.
On the flipside, the Eagles organization is a mirror of Jeffrey Lurie's ambitions from top to bottom. It starts at the top. The Eagles are a club, and the Sixers are just a company.
I know it definitely included a couple of Harris's guys in the FO and the president at the time of the entertainment company that owns the Sixers, Devils, etc.
The person making the decision is responsible for the outcome of those. Harris was responsible for a bunch of decisions that were provably pretty terrible around hiring the most senior executives. I like Morey and feel like that's a positive, but Brand is even still on the staff. Even if he wasn't making player calls, he hired the guys who were making those calls.
He gave in to Silver when Hinkie was in the process de.oted Hinkie hired old man Coangelo who hired his son who started the spiral down hill. Harris should've told Silver to go F himself and leave the team alone. Look what OKC has done without Silver interfering. I will always blame Silver and Harris for derailing the process
If the fans are complacent, sure. But be pissed when a shit owner who clearly doesn't give a shit just mails it in. But I guess you'de think it was a legit change, despite you selling out the first chance you get.
I assume Camden is their real choice too but is there a specific bylaw by the league for them prohibiting them to leave the region? Genuinely asking. I understand the league necessarily wouldn’t be happy letting them leave but is there some real protections?
Why the fuck would the team move from a city of 1.5 million to a town of 70,000 people that has no major sports teams in a state that has 1.5 professional sports teams and alienate the majority of their fanbase which is in the 4th largest media market in the country? Suburbs brain rot. Philly isn’t losing a team. It’s the 6th largest city in the 5th biggest state. There is a far bigger chance of Pittsburgh getting an NBA team than us losing one.
Tax breaks. NJ would provide Harris with tons of money and incentives to move to Jersey. They’ll still be called the Philadelphia 76ers, just that they’ll play their games over the river. The fan base is the same whether they play in Jersey or PA.
The Sixers motivations are very transparent. They will do whatever makes them the most money. Getting out of Wells Fargo will make them money and increase the value of the team. A new arena at the Gallery will make them more money, probably more than a Camden arena would, but if the city isn’t willing to allow them access to Market East, Camden likely makes more money than South Philly.
Yeah hella jealous of nuggets fans but Jokic is a joy to watch maybe if our front office stops being a bunch of dumbasses we could get to a similar level
True system play and knocking down open 3s make so much of a difference. I want to go after role players that can accomplish exactly that this offseason instead of star hunting. Give me a better sniper than Hield, Kelly, Nico and a KCP type over PG
Idk I feel like this series has been pretty damning to the idea of having a roster of shooters. On paper, basically our entire roster are good to great shooters. But it doesn't come together in practice. We need to find a good variety of players - more facilitation, more defense, more rebounding. We need guys who are elite at something - anything! Shooting well is like a baseline NBA skill at this point.
TL;DR shooting is noisy, and we have shot as well as you might hope for but I don't think you can blame our losses on shooting. You grab 5 more boards in any of the losses and they almost certainly win.
Jokic is a great player. Do the talking heads gas him a bit too much? Yes.
*What upsets me is when people act like the Nuggets don't have a Big 4 or at the very least, a Big 3.5. Aaron Gordon was a monster in Orlando. MPJ may be even better than he is right now, had he not gone down with that injury early in his career.
I think jokic has a good chance at becoming a top 15 player of all time. About to win his 3rd mvp and is also looking like the favourite to win another chip. If he does that he’ll already have a better resume than kd and he’s not even 30
The Nuggets don't have a big 4. They have a good team. It makes them all look better. We have seen the plus/minuses and performances without Jokic and the whole team tanks with Jamal at the helm.
I am not saying MPJ and Gordon are not great players, but they are too limited to be all-stars in my eyes and I am a Nuggets fan. Gordon is versatile as hell on defense but actually plays a dunker role in 2024. Which works very well for him, but all-stars don't play dunker roles. MPJ is playing out of his mind right now, but during the regular season he had a lower 3P% than Murray did. He brings rebounds, length and shooting but I would never rely on him to carry a team.
Mpj and Gordon are perfect defensive complements for jokic with elite strengths on offense. The closest thing to that on the sixers is Kelly “green light” oubre 😂
Nuggets are stacked.
I would argue Murray plays near elite basketball every year in the playoffs. So big two.
Definitely not a big 4 though, the rest of those guys are just excellent role players that perform more often than not. Contrast that to the sixers where they have Embiid & Maxey and are lucky to get anything at all from the rest of the guys.
This is so untrue. If you want to consider MPJ a 3rd star, I guess you can make the case. Tobias Harris has better averages than Porter. Way worse of a 3 shooter obviously, but same stats. Just because you actually deliver in the playoffs doesn’t make you a star. You’re putting Aaron Gordon in a place he shouldn’t be in. The Timberwolves have more of a Big 4 than the Nuggets. They have more of a Big 3. Is LeBron, AD, DLo and Reaves a big 4. Jokic just makes everyone on his team better, so you think they’re stars. MPJ is the only one that’s even debatable. I don’t think he’s a volume scorer that can create for himself consistently. Tyrese Maxey is an example of a lower tier star. Tyler Herro is about as low tier star status I can take. People throw the word around, and it devalues it.
This is extremely disingenuous because Gordon is far and away a better player than Tobi, and so is KCP for that matter.
Gordon is elite defensively, great on the boards, and a top 3 lob threat in the league who is also a great facilitator. Tobi is none of those things, just a jump shooter and meh wing defender who shrinks in the big moments.
When someone uses Tobi and Stats in the same sentence I have to tune out.
There are stats that contrubute to winning and empty stats, Tobi accumulates a lot of empty stats and bumps his averages up by excelling in meaningless games several times a season against weak opponents.
When you need him, he is an extemely reliable no show.
Give me a dude with trash stats who comes through in the big moments any day.
Obviously yes. Tobias is the most garbage player-to- contract situation I’ve ever had the displeasure of watching. I would rather have Al Horford on his contract because at least he could’ve given us some backup center minutes.
I think Tobias is complete garbage. But if we’re talking about players where you cannot quantify their effect in stats, they’re not part of a “big” anything. Aaron Gordon and KCP are not Draymond/Gobert level defenders. That’s the only way you could talk yourself into someone who isn’t proficient at scoring being in a conversation like this. I’m just saying this guy talking about how the Nuggets have an all-star starting 5 like the Celtics do is ridiculous. You put any player in the Celtics starting 5 on the Blazers and he’s an all-star candidate stats wise.
Aaron Gordon and KCP aren’t former dpoy and that’s what they’re not recognized for their defensive impact like those guys. They are fuckn great defenders.
I agree that the nugs don’t have 4 “all stars,” but if your reasoning is “but Tobias Harris…” wtf do you expect me to say
Then we agree. I’m just using Tobias as a benchmark to show that’s a ridiculous claim to say there’s 4 all-stars on Denver. If you want to say they play at borderline all-star level in the playoffs, I could be persuaded. MPJ and Murray absolutely do. But that’s also a product of Jokic. They aren’t all-stars without him minus Murray.
Gordon and KCP for that matter are in a system that utilizes them properly. You would be just as disappointed with them if they replaced Tobias and Melton or Heild, because we do not have a system
You know that’s a literal indisputable fact, right? Go look at the season averages. I think Tobias is a fucking bum and I would rather have Joe Ingles on the court than him, I’m just saying that MPJ is not an all-star. If Tobias is putting up better counting stats than you, you’re not an All-star.
I'm not disputing that. What I was alluding to is the fact that most people in here despise Tobi, so many will go out of their way to dispute your claim regardless of tangible evidence.
At the end of the day, what separates a star from a role player is their ability to change the game. I'm taking MPJ all day, everyday.
I misinterpreted you. MPJ is a borderline star in my opinion. I just think that there’s no way Aaron Gordon could be considered a star. He would’ve been borderline to me even in Orlando. He’s a star like DeAndre Ayton or Pistons Drummond is/was a star. It looks good in the box score but it’s not like it looks.
People don’t wanna hear it, but Embiid mindset is part of the problem.
He doesn’t trust his guys enough. Sometimes he wants to do it all himself.
Embiid needs to make the right play every single time. Even if guys miss shots. He tries too many times to break doubles and I think that’s a problem.
But Embiid isn’t as smart of a player as Jokic is. Jokic consistently makes the right play. Joel doesn’t. And Jokic is a much better passer on top of that. That’s why he’s an incredible facilitator and wins, and a major reason why Joel stalls in the playoffs (injuries don’t help either).
But Jokic doesn’t get hurt as often. Why? Because he doesn’t exert nearly as much energy. He can stand there and make the right read. He doesn’t need to barrel downhill. He isn’t trying to crush people with his athleticism. So he doesn’t get hurt and makes winning plays.
I agree, and on some level I don't blame him because I feel like his entire experience in the NBA so far is basically "well if I don't do everything, the team will falter". It's time for him to mature into a new role IMO where the priority is making the right play and encouraging other guys to step up rather than the priority being scoring 35+
Exactly. And what you'll find over time is when it's apparent guys suck, your front office will better be able to put non-sucky players around them. Because then it's obvious what Embiid needs to succeed.
I’ve lived around Denver for 3 years now and I’ve seen the nuggets play a few times. It’s crazy how well they move the ball and to see jokic play with an outstanding supporting crew is such a great experience.
Also, I was never one to compare jokic and embiid because they have, to me, totally different styles where jokic is a freak of nature and embiid is like a cursed phenom. Thinking that he started this season on such a great tear (again), only to end up struggling like this…again… just bums me out.
Jokic would cook with Harris, horford and Simmons. Horford has an extremely high bball IQ. I know it didn’t work out when he played for Philly but look at his career. He would thrive with jokic. Harris would simply score more as that’s what players do playing jokic. He would find him better open looks. Almost can’t miss opportunities. Simmons would be a tough one but there was a time when Aaron gordan looked really bad offensively before he played with joker
Someone actually understands basketball… and what is wrong with this team. It isn’t a talent thing. Every player in the NBA is not an ISO dominant scorer, it isn’t a talent issue we have, it is a “good basketball” issue, we have no offensive system other than playing iso basketball, and we don’t play to anyones strengths.
Joel may be the most talented player in the league, but he does not yet make anyone “better” and most here are not ready for that conversation, so it is easier to just blame Tobias.
I'll paraphrase what Barkley once said about players "making other players around them better". "Magic got to make Kareem, Jamal Wilkes, Norm Nixon and James Worthy better. Bird got to make Robert Parish, Kevin McHale and Dennis Johnson better. I have to make Scotty Brooks, Manute Bol and Terry Catledge better."
Some players are just better fits as teammates and in a successful playing system. Sometimes players who were originally thought of as potentially star players don't live up to that title but are self aware enough to mold their game into something that fits into a new team & scheme. Gordon, KCP and Porter, Jr fit into that category. Meanwhile, Oubre Jr also fits that category and thrived both with and without Joel. Tobias never adjusted to fit in. Batum is a glue player but he's at the end of his NBA career. Hield completely vanished under the spotlights, even despite the open shots Embiid's gravity provided him. The Sixers got lucky to find Maxey and he's thrived in Philly & beside Joel. The Sixers haven't been able to identify the types of player to put around Joel and the roster is always in flux instead of finding the parts that fit and developing them into a cohesive unit like Denver has.
Next season with all that cap space, the Sixers will once again try and find some mercs to place alongside Embiid & Maxey. Instead of trying to obtain mid to high first round draft picks that can help the team on cheaper rookie contracts and developing them, we're going to go star hunting and fill out the roster with has been & never was's. I can't blame Joel, he's improved his game each season and has added playmaking to his MVP bag. And now, we've seen the Knicks, Pacers and Orlando pass us by in the East and N.O. & OKC pass us by in the West all during our post Process playoff years. It's frustrating as hell.
Has Oubre really thrived or has he passed some sort of Philly eye test scoring enough buckets at some of the lowest percentages of his career?
I don’t put it all on Joel, butwe don’t have a system. This gravity you speak of works when guys play basketball the right way all the time and not just when they feel like it.
No one on this team even has a chance to get into a consistent offensive rhythm other than our two ball dominant stars. If you were to look at the number of offensive possessions that are Joel’s shot attempts and FT attempts, and maxey iso’s…how many more possessions are there really in a basketball game? And are we using them to get anyone else in a consistent rhythm or are we expecting someone to just be a third option on any given night?
I’d actually argue that Kelly thrives in scoring because he operates in a bit of chaos offensively.
The idea that Tobias never adjusted to fit in, Batum is too old (after literally saving this team in the play in), or that Buddy Heild vanished under the spotlight is really just ignoring the real problem.
Oubre is a scorer, not a shooter. He can score in streaks and is a threat to attack the basket. He creates his own form of pressure on the defense. Does he thrive on chaos? Sure, because a scorer can create his own shot when plays break down or in transition. He can drive and kick for an open 3 because the defense has to honor his drives. And, his aggressivness creates fouls. Plus, he has put in the effort on defense and rebounding. All these are valuable traits for a player and for a team to have.
I agree that this team has never had a cohesive and successful offensive philosophy in the post Process era. For years, Doc's system of DHO's with Embiid getting the ball 25 feet from the basket wasn't anywhere near ideal. Most of the successful teams in the playoffs have a system that creates shots before the shot clock gets to 20. Hopefully Nurse can do better with the system with the roster Morey can give him next season.
Tobias has never fit his game in with the team. He would rather dribble and back down his man instead of taking the open 3s that the offense gives him. He has the weakest 6'9 rim attack for a starter in this league and absolutely disappears when the games are bigger. I love Batum, but don't forget that he almost retired before the season and hasn't confirmed if he's sticking around the NBA for another year....supposedly he and his family wants to finish his career in his home country of France. I never said he was old, I said he might retire. Batum is exactly what we were told PJ was...and more. We need Batum. And Buddy did vanish at season's end and by the time the playoffs hit, he was barely in the rotation and was shooting horribly. We need the regular season sharpshooter he has been all his career. This is his first playoffs tho, so hopefully he will settle down in the future because he's the type of shooter the team needs.
People here are LEGIT making statement that Jokic would do nothing if he is 76ers team with bunch of losers; forgetting he took team where Austin Rivers, Facundo Campazzo and Will Bartun were starters to second round of play off.
It is a strange combination of victim+mobb mentality in this sub, and after this season is over, when Harris will be gone…unless the most talented player in the world decides or is coached to properly play a different brand of basketball…we will be subscribing to the same thing again, just identifying a new scapegoat
The rest of my comment is the point. The idea that Tobias should be better the way we play is absurd to me.
We cant find Batum an open shot consistently , Buddy Heild has become a significantly worse 3 point shooter on this team, Horford immediately becomes better after leaving.
Harris is an easy target because of his salary, but there are a lot of players in the league who are just not iso ball dominant superstars who would thrive a lot differently in a system like the nuggets compared to a (lack of) system like the sixers.
Again I think that's fair, but Tobias gets chances to make easy layups, shoot open 3s, box out and rebound the ball every single game. He doesn't do any of those consistently. He's also been worse on defense this year whereas in previous years you could actually expect him to be decent on that end. I think both your comments and Tobias being significantly worse than typical this season is true. Tobias used to be a consistent 20 point guy on this same team with worse spacing.
And this is where I tend to think that this sub has really just convinced themselves of certain things.
He’s not the teams rebounding problem or the teams defensive problem. In fact I would go as far as to say he might be the teams most capable defender and playing two undersized guards hurts us more in both of those categories.
Multiple times down the stretch of games this series he was downright SOLID defending Brunson, OG and Hart one on one.
I don’t think it is a “spacing” issue for him, I think it is an overall style of basketball issue for him and others this year.
Some nights someone (outside of Maxey and Joel) on the team has a hot hand and shoots above 60%. No one does it consistently and no one is expected to.
But Tobias is expected to score 20ppg. At his usage, unless…how?
> He’s not the teams rebounding problem
I agree with most of what you're saying except this line. When Embiid is the only one contesting shots and getting boxed out by two players, it falls on the 4 to clean up rebounds and that's Tobias' job. And most of the time it looks like he just gives zero effort at that part of the game unless it's a completely uncontested rebound.
In the game 2 end of game chaos, Tobi boxed his guy out and went for the ball. Jo stayed on the floor and lazily boxed out Hart, who I'd argue was already matched w Kyle Lowry, leaving Hartenstein open for an easy rebound.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9CGOGXGkHU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9CGOGXGkHU)
I think the nuggets are underrated on defense Aaron Gordon is a beast Kcp is too and mpj has improved and Jamal and jokic have too and we rebound really well so yeah a rebound is potentially in basketball it’s either an extra possession or a stop and we do it really well
Joel definitely makes players better, but in comparison to jokic, he comes up short. The idea that Joel doesn’t get easy shots for these guys is fucking laughable
Joel doesn’t get them open shots. They are open because of Joel. There’s a slight difference there.
It’s hard for anyone to randomly be called on to make a big shot when they haven’t been involved in the offensive game throughout. Players need to find a rhythm. They need to be involved. Nuggets keep everyone involved. They play smart.
Jokic conserves energy and still affects the game because he plays intelligent basketball. Jo doesn’t. Jo overpowers with talent.
This.
It is somewhat easy to overlook how often Joel doesn’t make the right basketball play because of how talented he is.
The high clip he hits the midrange and the frequency he gets to the FT line are great, but sometimes hitting the open man in the corner is actually the right play and goes beyond the stat sheet when teammates know how we are playing together
It’s actually a pretty big effective difference. It’s the difference between making the smart play consistently versus having guys open because you draw so much attention. Making the smart play consistently is a better winning strategy.
You are choosing to ignore the point because you are overly sensitive about anything that may remotely seem like Joel criticism.
Obviously the most talented player on earth will at times make players better, but the way this team plays does not. Joel is not a great passer, neither is Tyrese and their isos are pretty much the only offense we have if you are being honest with the way we play.
Against a disciplined defensive team (especially in the playoffs) I’ll argue that it is more difficult for your role players to be effective without a better offensive scheme to find some sort of rhythm.
What we are doing is just rolling the dice that guy(s) will make shots in limited and random opportunities. When it happens and they are hot, we get Batum in the play-in. When it doesnt, we say Joel has no help and everyone sucks.
We actually had a better offensive scheme without Joel on the floor when Doc was here (something else no one wants to admit)
Not choosing to ignore anything, I directly addressed it. Jokic is the best in the world at creating for teammates, so Joel will look worse in comparison.
But we’re prisoners of the moment, Embiid makes smart passes out of doubles, is very good at finding cutters, and sees over the defense at an elite level with his face ups. He doesn’t have an elite finisher and rebounder to pass to in that situation, and our best cutter is 6ft tall.
If we hit 2 more shots in the 4th quarter, we wouldn’t be acting like Embiid doesn’t make players better.
Again, he’s not as good as jokic, and I’d say Luka is better, but has the same type of flaws offensively as Embiid.
>But we’re prisoners of the moment, Embiid makes smart passes out of doubles, is very good at finding cutters, and sees over the defense at an elite level with his face ups. He doesn’t have an elite finisher and rebounder to pass to in that situation, and our best cutter is 6ft tall.
I'm not sure I've watched the same Embiid playoff career as you. This is by far the worst aspect of his game.
You don’t have to be an elite passer to make teammates better. How many elite passers are even in the league? Joel makes teammates better, he’s just not the best in the world at it.
His biggest problem is his mentality.
I'm sorry but there's no way. I mean yes, they'd be a playoff team, but so was Joel + those guys. The Nuggets are worldbeaters because they have arguably the best starting five in the league and fit together like a fucking glove.
Timberwolves, thunder and Boston all have better rosters top to bottom. Denver has the best player. Their offense is amazing because they have arguably the best playmaking big man of all time. Are we really comparing these two again? Jokic’s stats are better in the playoffs when embiid’s take a step back. Their talent is close but jokic is the better player at this point.
Horford has played well everywhere he’s been except Philly so that wouldn’t be hard for him to do. I mean jokic played alongside plumlee and milsap and elevated their games. Even dudes like Bryn Forbes and Bol bol played better with jokic.
I don’t know if anyone could fix Simmons mental game. So I would agree with him but jokic is the best passing big man in the league in transition and Simmons thrived in transition so it’s not far fetched to see that at least working.
Lastly, Harris would play a little better. He’s lost on Philly. He’s not a creator anymore and Philly has no true passer first players. Look at how jokic elevated Bruce brown’s game the year they played together. Did the same with will barton. Those guys doing any better than Tobias Harris if they played in Philly?
Ok but like what the fuck are we even talking about here? Joel with those guys was a 6th seed. I highly doubt Jokic would be any better, in fact we *know* that Jokic and meh players begets a sixth seed. So what's your point? There's no universe where Jokic "cooks" with that roster any further than the first round, so it's just a meaningless comment
> I don’t get how can’t understand this.
Maybe because the point is shit? What are you actually saying? That Jokic would get out of the second round with that crew? Fat chance. That Jokic + Horford + Tobias with Simmons hurt don't get swept by Boston in the bubble? Awesome
Jokic horford and Tobias is a better combination than embiid horford Tobias. I think they at least don’t get swept by Boston because jokic is a better player than embiid. Possibly win that series
I disagree. While Jokic certainly elevates the play of his costars more so than embiid, and is leaps and bounds far better playmaker, Jokic has gotten more help through his team than embiid has. We have seen embiid make passes to open shooters who can’t make shit. Make passes to open dunkers who won’t dunk or get their dunk blocked. Embiid, until Maxey, hasn’t had a player grow up with him who can help him out on offense and make those tough shots or drives that can bail a team out (I consider Harden and butler temporary hires who weren’t here long enough to build chemistry with him).
While my post can come across as hateful of nuggets or Jokic, the truth of the matter is I’m jealous. They built the right team around him while embiid has been hampered by poor management, untimely injuries, and I guess the learning curve he had to go through in the nba after not picking up a basketball until he was in high school.
Embiid has played with more all stars than jokic and more championship winning coaches. There was a time Mike Malone was considered overrated.
Imagine what jokic would do with buddy hield or Kelly oubre?
Everyone is jealous of jokic. The difference is GM, Connelly for Denver was legit and specialized in identifying cheap value talent. Jokic makes it all work because he is the most unselfish basketball player in the league. Possibly of all time. He doesn’t care about getting his head just wants to advance the ball and score.
My guy. Buddy hield can’t even get open and when he does he’s bricking shots. Kelly oubre had one of his best years here. Jokic isn’t magically making his teammates get open and make shots. His teammates run around to get open.
And the all star thing - Ben Simmons is an all star. It has no value. Harden was past him prime. On the other hand Jamal Murray and Michael porter jr would easily be the second and 3rd best players on this team. And until oubre we had no one who could properly dunk with authority.
You think Jokic can make past prime harden, who’s ball dominant, better? You think he can make Tobias, who needs ball in his hands and screens set for him, any better? You think he can fix fultz shot? You think he can make all star Ben Simmons dunk that ball against the hawks?
Let’s be honest here. They built a great team around Jokic perfect for his skills. And sixers have failed to do that. And this has impacted the legacy of both guys.
Have you watched harden this season? Idk if he’s that far past his prime. Also until his stint with the 76ers Harden was one of the most unselfish players on the court. Buddy heild was on fire before he came to the 6ers and is sti one of the best 3 point shooters. Jokic would have them shooting wide open 3’s like he does for Reggie Jackson and dude for guys like bones hyland and monte morris. Caldwell pope has been a better shooter since coming to the nuggets. I wonder why? Players come to Philly and play worse with embiid and the opposite happens with Denver and jokic.
Look at the amount of all stars. Embiid is playing with more and has played with more throughout his career. It’s just a fact.
Tobias needs to shoot better and get open. Look at his Detroit pistons and clippers days. That was the recipe. Just look at his shooting percentages before he got to Philly. Jokic would easily do that for him.
I agree with you that the nuggets built a better team but c’mon man just admit it Jokic is the better player right now. If you can’t see that than your watching the nba with blinders on.
This is the new trend to be successful in the NBA. You have 2 stars, usually homegrown, and a bunch of role players who play those roles really well and a coach that has a system.
We have 2 of those things, it’s the rest of the roster that needs help. And contrary to popular belief that starts with a decent backup center like Drummond or Claxton
I’m hoping that Daryl can build this roster finally with some cap space available. Get younger and more athletic. This is the last chance we’ll have with embiid.
They go small when Jokic sits with Peyton Wallace at center. They survive because they have other players on the team that can do stuff. MPJ Gordon Braun Jackson and KCP aren’t going to go 6 minutes without making a shot…
Ya people don't understand that backup center hasn't really been our problem. We can't score without Embiid on the court.
Tobias is the biggest issue. He's being paid to be a scorer, and in non Embiid minutes, the last 5 years it should've been Tobi time. But we've gotten nothing from him.
Deandre? Braun? The difference is that Jokic stays healthy. He’s played 79 games this season and 69 last year. This isn’t a knock on Jo because it’s out of his control but you need someone to positively contribute off the bench when he rests so he can stay healthier/rested for the playoffs
It was a rhetorical question. Jordan has played some minutes and Peyton Watson (a 6’ 7” second year forward) has played the majority of the back up center minutes.
My point of the question was to show and state that backup center doesn’t matter for the Sixers (or the nuggets). The Sixers issue is they can’t score with embiid off the floor because of the rosters lack of talent and shot creation (the Sixers are 16-60 from the floor with embiid off the court against the Knicks). Claxton, Drummond, or any backup center isn’t going to fix the offensive issue and backup center is the least of Morey’s concerns this offseason.
Any team is going to be worse with one of the best players in the world off the floor.. nuggets with jokic off the floor >>>>>> sixers with embiid off the floor.
The point was putting money or making a backup center isn’t a priority. The nuggets don’t have one and won the title last year because they have a great and complementary roster.
I agree that backup center isn’t the reason why the sixers don’t succeed. But I don’t think the nuggets are that much better with their star off the floor.
The Nuggets won also because Jokic is the best player in the world and his style lifts every other player up. His IQ is off the charts and he makes the right read and play consistently.
Jokic is great, I agree. However, the nuggets third best playoff player isn’t a 38 year old buyout guy. They have a huge playoff riser in Murray, a guy who can drop 30 any night in MPJ (and averaged over 25 a game against the lakers in the first round), and a glue guy who can do it all a little in Aaron Gordon. Their 5th starter, kcp, would play 40 playoff minutes a game for us. The nuggets roster as a whole is significantly better than the Sixers roster.
I think Jokic makes all of them look better by reading the court incredibly well and consistently making the right play. It’s hard for role players to do their jobs consistently well when Joel ISOs so often.
I think their roster is better, but it’s not by as much as people think. Jokic is just a cut above the rest, and his ability to basically just chill and read the court makes defending him and everyone else on his team extremely difficult. It also prevents him from constantly being injured.
Absolutely Joel ISOs make it difficult for the role players.
I think we largely agree. To me it appears, I’m just much more down on the Sixers supporting cast than you are.
If Lowry, our third best playoff player so far this season, had been a picked up by the nuggets he might be getting 10 minutes a game. Not sure if anyone else on our roster (ignoring maxey and embiid) would get any minutes on the nuggets.. if they did it wouldn’t be more than 5 or 10 minutes a game. Lowry is currently playing 35 minutes for us. To me, that speaks great volumes to their roster just being much better.
You bring up a good point. I’m coming at it from a defensive point of view to fill that gap when he’s off the floor. Secure the ball, block shots. I think the one thing we both can agree on is that both areas need to be addressed
We practically have a new team every year aside from duds who can't play and should have been moved on years ago, and Embiid.
And this year Maxey as PG.
Even throwing super teams together never works their first season together.
Unfortuntely next year is yet another shake up. But Embiid, Maxey already have chemistry,, I would keep Oubre, Ricky Council to give him more run, Lowry also due to low salary and what he offers as a long player in Nurse's system and locker room etc,,,, the rest can go (Batum has earned a happy retirement) and I hope the chemistry between the above can be maintained and Morey finds some guys that fit in the off season.
And for god's sake get a servicable backup big that can give Embiid some rest without him feeling like he's gotta play 48mins of the 82games just to stop us falling off a cliff.
I don't care if we don't play him a minute in playoffs, just that he can help Embiid get to playoffs NOT injured or NOT burnt out on the brink of injury.
I think we need to acknowledge that fact that winning with a ball dominant big man who isn’t a great passer or facilitator is very difficult. Joel’s style doesn’t make it easy for role player to play their part. Constantly trying to use your athleticism against guys, hoping for an easy bucket or a foul call, doesn’t work as well in the playoffs. It also leads to more injuries. Making the right read and play plays anywhere. Jokic barely looks like he’s trying a lot of the time because he can read the court so well.
I think this might be it. Joel might have to shift his focus to defense and rebound more, and leave the offense to maxey and hopefully a good 3rd option.
The Nuggets offense runs the rough Jokic most of the time too. He just doesn’t feel the need to score if he doesn’t have a perfect opportunity to do so. He doesn’t face up and ISO. He doesn’t constantly try and bully his way to the basket. He takes what’s given to him. He makes the right read and therefore the right play.
I honestly think Joel could play more that way. He’s not as good of a passer. But he has the better physical traits even if his IQ isn’t quite as high.
tbh, I knew many of us don't like to hear that
Ben Simmons did great in rebounding in defense (not talking about offense) and it covered Joel rebounding problem before
Anyway, Gordon and MPJ really doing great job in their role to support Jokic
It's because of jokic, that the other players look so good.
His skill and willingness to pass the ball encourages the team to run into space. Not to mention jokic own effort, running up and down the court. The guy is running full speed for the entire game.
Ain't no way embiid does any of that.
Put another way, put embiid in Denver, and those players aren't moving and passing the way they do now, and with the way Joel plays, they also wouldn't be getting the touches or shots they are getting now, which usually means worst performances from them too.
He took team where Austin \`Rivers, Facundo fakin Campazzo and Will Barton were starters to play off and second round. Yeah, you have no idea what you are talking about lol
guys just fit really good around Jokic. Gordon is a #4 pick with elite athleticism, perfect for Jokic's vision/passing. Murray is a good #2 with size. MPJ is a big athletic wing that can shoot. They have been stable for multiple years so play really well together.
Biggest issue with the sixers is roster mismanagement/luck. Absolutely have bungled the roster numerous times, but they also have been forced to by multiple holdouts that "reset" the lineup construction twice now. Next year once again, a complete starting lineup overhaul. This is the last chance to build a roster, and honestly, even if a beautiful lineup is built around Embiid, it will take a couple years to fully gel like the Nuggets are now. Not saying they can't win but they will need to gel really fast and be a perfect fit
I will say a lot of embiids constant demands for the ball are the fact is still believes he has to do it all himself. Surround him with better roster maybe he becomes more unselfish
Seriously wondering are the teams where the others contribute well more likely to have had some stability over the years. We really haven’t strung more than 1.5 seasons where our best pieces are playing together and our backups are somewhat consistent. How do you build chemistry with all this turnover?
You’re downplaying the Nuggets coaching staff and FO. They develop well and build their team with players that know their role. They play to their strengths. I don’t get to watch a ton of Nuggets games but when I do, they rarely waste a possession. They didn’t become great overnight. They built it. Something the Sixers front office has failed to do. I don’t hate Jokic…never understood why anyone would.
Maybe in the regular season. In the post-season they are a push. AD played just as well this playoffs as Embiid did and he did it with 9% less usage rate.
You can’t build a roster through free agency. We made bad moves years ago that has led to more bad moves due to timelines etc. Now we are in scramble mode to save Joel’s best years and turning into that team who grips onto hope while continuing to blow assets Nuggets play so well because it’s constant ball movement and team basketball. Jokic doesn’t get the ball in the post and guys stand around and wait for their moment. The style of play always has guys ready. When Joel needs a breather this roster loses their minds because there’s no flow to the team. I tried to write something quickly but theres still a lot more to it. I don’t believe it’s just because Nuggets hit their shots.
ESPN ran an article not too long about with the headline quote being Jokic saying their current group had to play together for 2-3 years before they even fully understood Mike Malone’s system. We haven’t had consistent enough coaching or role players to even begin to build year over year chemistry that it takes to watch a team go from potential to legit contender
This is the real reason. The Nuggets are telepathic at this point
I’ve been preaching this for so long, thank you @chrirJ. Team chemistry is what wins championships, all of these contenders cores have atleast 3-5 seasons playing together. Instead all we ever do is cry about trades every year that prevents us from establishing an actual identity.
[удалено]
This is the biggest part. People think tobi is just hated because he doesn’t play to his contract. It’s literally been his contract existing that has knee capped this team from building a true quality roster
To be fair the nuggets bench is horrible too.
>You can’t build a roster through free agency. Welp have I got a treat for you this offseason.
There is no Joel best years, as every year it's something with the guy.
Josh Harris thinking he’s gonna get a new arena after this season makes me LMFAO
I swear I saw so many people saying this was the best team of the Joel era and way funnier to watch and root for. Shit change fast I guess
They were actually very good before the injuries, missing Cov and Melton plus Joel at 70% makes a big difference, especially a series this close
Too many delusional fans have convinced themselves that a back-up guard who can’t make open layups was the key to unlocking our success. Melton has never been what people imagine him to be. I watched half of the Celtics game last night. Their 4th best player scored 22 points in the first half. We can’t compete with that balance. Or Denver. Those two teams are a cut above the rest.
And the team was put together not to be the best team possible for this year but to have maximum flexibility to build a team for next year. Basically this year we only signed or traded for guys that were free agents after this year or guys that had non guaranteed contracts after this year. Look at the roster only Embiid and Paul Reed are signed past this year. And Paul reeds contract is only guaranteed past this year if we make it out of the 1st round of the playoffs. So this team wasn't really put together to win a championship this year it was put together to give us one last chance after this year to build a legitimate team around Embiid.
I mean this *is* probably the best team we've had around Embiid, specifically. The problem is that we're absolutely toast without him on the floor.
The best Sixers team around Embiid, and the best chance at a chip, faded into history with a kawhi leonard 3pt shot.
What a team that was. Embiid, Simmons, Butler, Redick,
LOL. This team has won the least amount of games in a semi healthy Embiid era(Yeah, I’ll hit them below the belt because 16 of our 35 losses can be attributed to their pathetic performances) It amazes me how this team can clank after clank and people still blindly say this stuff. No, they’re not the best team in the Joel era. The 2021-22 team clears them easily somehow with Seth Curry and Danny Green
I mean the record with Joel on the floor was absolutely nuts. 31-8 is well beyond the pace of that '21-22 team.
Yeah the same people say that every year.
Dude ruined the sixers
I’m guessing you’re pretty young
Yea, us olds are like “he ruined the sixers AGAIN”
On the internet no in real life idk maybe?
In sixers Fandom you certainly have to be
yea i didnt get to watch our superteam come up short in the 80s only to fucking annihilate in 83. wish i did tho. Got to watch AI fuck up the lakers tho
The reality is the Sixers have not been a well run franchise through their history. I’d say we are currently somewhere in the middle, certainly not ruined. Those of us that watch Eddie Jordan coached teams or Doug Moe coached teams knows. We watched Clarence Weatherspoon be our best player. We had to watch the Sixers draft Shawn Bradley watch Keith freaking van horn. There’s been much darker days than today.
Lowkey what the fuck did he even do that's worse than Elton signing Al horford Ben and Tobi to 500 trillion dollar contracts. I mean Josh Harris is probably an idiot and a money hungry asshole but tf did he do that's responsible for the dozens of braindead basketball decisions and lack of culture on this team.
He hired Elton, no? And Colangelo, and owned the team when Doc was hired...
Ok but then its his fault by proxy and primarily Eltons fault?`
On the flipside, the Eagles organization is a mirror of Jeffrey Lurie's ambitions from top to bottom. It starts at the top. The Eagles are a club, and the Sixers are just a company.
Weren't there reports that Elton wasn't really making the decisions himself and that the decisions were made by Harris's brain trust in the FO?
I thought the brain trust was Elton + Brett + the other two owners
I know it definitely included a couple of Harris's guys in the FO and the president at the time of the entertainment company that owns the Sixers, Devils, etc.
The person making the decision is responsible for the outcome of those. Harris was responsible for a bunch of decisions that were provably pretty terrible around hiring the most senior executives. I like Morey and feel like that's a positive, but Brand is even still on the staff. Even if he wasn't making player calls, he hired the guys who were making those calls.
He gave in to Silver when Hinkie was in the process de.oted Hinkie hired old man Coangelo who hired his son who started the spiral down hill. Harris should've told Silver to go F himself and leave the team alone. Look what OKC has done without Silver interfering. I will always blame Silver and Harris for derailing the process
Ownership notoriously had negative feelings towards Jimmy Butler which contributed to us picking our preexisting core over him.
I mean it’s already more or less a done deal that it’s happening.
He will get it eventually. He’s a selfish, immoral chode with billions. Just how the world works unfortunately.
Not if the city stands up to him
Lol
Empty Mall Above All!!!! (The Sixers Arena is a great idea - don’t let your contempt for ownership cloud your judgement.)
My sweet summer child.
If the fans are complacent, sure. But be pissed when a shit owner who clearly doesn't give a shit just mails it in. But I guess you'de think it was a legit change, despite you selling out the first chance you get.
Or they move to another town which I think is the ultimate endgame
The league won’t let them move out of the region. The farthest they would go would be Camden. To me, that’s their real destination of choice.
I assume Camden is their real choice too but is there a specific bylaw by the league for them prohibiting them to leave the region? Genuinely asking. I understand the league necessarily wouldn’t be happy letting them leave but is there some real protections?
There is no situation where the NBA would allow the fourth biggest market in the country to just not have a team. It would be economically insane.
Why the fuck would the team move from a city of 1.5 million to a town of 70,000 people that has no major sports teams in a state that has 1.5 professional sports teams and alienate the majority of their fanbase which is in the 4th largest media market in the country? Suburbs brain rot. Philly isn’t losing a team. It’s the 6th largest city in the 5th biggest state. There is a far bigger chance of Pittsburgh getting an NBA team than us losing one.
Tax breaks. NJ would provide Harris with tons of money and incentives to move to Jersey. They’ll still be called the Philadelphia 76ers, just that they’ll play their games over the river. The fan base is the same whether they play in Jersey or PA. The Sixers motivations are very transparent. They will do whatever makes them the most money. Getting out of Wells Fargo will make them money and increase the value of the team. A new arena at the Gallery will make them more money, probably more than a Camden arena would, but if the city isn’t willing to allow them access to Market East, Camden likely makes more money than South Philly.
Yeah hella jealous of nuggets fans but Jokic is a joy to watch maybe if our front office stops being a bunch of dumbasses we could get to a similar level
True system play and knocking down open 3s make so much of a difference. I want to go after role players that can accomplish exactly that this offseason instead of star hunting. Give me a better sniper than Hield, Kelly, Nico and a KCP type over PG
Idk I feel like this series has been pretty damning to the idea of having a roster of shooters. On paper, basically our entire roster are good to great shooters. But it doesn't come together in practice. We need to find a good variety of players - more facilitation, more defense, more rebounding. We need guys who are elite at something - anything! Shooting well is like a baseline NBA skill at this point. TL;DR shooting is noisy, and we have shot as well as you might hope for but I don't think you can blame our losses on shooting. You grab 5 more boards in any of the losses and they almost certainly win.
Shooters need touches and shots to be consistent. Too much iso from your star player, gets everyone out of rhythm
Jokic is a great player. Do the talking heads gas him a bit too much? Yes. *What upsets me is when people act like the Nuggets don't have a Big 4 or at the very least, a Big 3.5. Aaron Gordon was a monster in Orlando. MPJ may be even better than he is right now, had he not gone down with that injury early in his career.
KCP is also an elite 3 and d wing that fits perfectly with that group.
I think jokic has a good chance at becoming a top 15 player of all time. About to win his 3rd mvp and is also looking like the favourite to win another chip. If he does that he’ll already have a better resume than kd and he’s not even 30
The Nuggets don't have a big 4. They have a good team. It makes them all look better. We have seen the plus/minuses and performances without Jokic and the whole team tanks with Jamal at the helm. I am not saying MPJ and Gordon are not great players, but they are too limited to be all-stars in my eyes and I am a Nuggets fan. Gordon is versatile as hell on defense but actually plays a dunker role in 2024. Which works very well for him, but all-stars don't play dunker roles. MPJ is playing out of his mind right now, but during the regular season he had a lower 3P% than Murray did. He brings rebounds, length and shooting but I would never rely on him to carry a team.
Mpj and Gordon are perfect defensive complements for jokic with elite strengths on offense. The closest thing to that on the sixers is Kelly “green light” oubre 😂 Nuggets are stacked.
They don't have Big 4. Joker doesn't have one all-star on his team.
I would argue Murray plays near elite basketball every year in the playoffs. So big two. Definitely not a big 4 though, the rest of those guys are just excellent role players that perform more often than not. Contrast that to the sixers where they have Embiid & Maxey and are lucky to get anything at all from the rest of the guys.
R u sure about that?
lmao if Jamal Murray was in the East he would be a 5x All Star by now
This is so untrue. If you want to consider MPJ a 3rd star, I guess you can make the case. Tobias Harris has better averages than Porter. Way worse of a 3 shooter obviously, but same stats. Just because you actually deliver in the playoffs doesn’t make you a star. You’re putting Aaron Gordon in a place he shouldn’t be in. The Timberwolves have more of a Big 4 than the Nuggets. They have more of a Big 3. Is LeBron, AD, DLo and Reaves a big 4. Jokic just makes everyone on his team better, so you think they’re stars. MPJ is the only one that’s even debatable. I don’t think he’s a volume scorer that can create for himself consistently. Tyrese Maxey is an example of a lower tier star. Tyler Herro is about as low tier star status I can take. People throw the word around, and it devalues it.
This is extremely disingenuous because Gordon is far and away a better player than Tobi, and so is KCP for that matter. Gordon is elite defensively, great on the boards, and a top 3 lob threat in the league who is also a great facilitator. Tobi is none of those things, just a jump shooter and meh wing defender who shrinks in the big moments.
When someone uses Tobi and Stats in the same sentence I have to tune out. There are stats that contrubute to winning and empty stats, Tobi accumulates a lot of empty stats and bumps his averages up by excelling in meaningless games several times a season against weak opponents. When you need him, he is an extemely reliable no show. Give me a dude with trash stats who comes through in the big moments any day.
Exactly. If the usage rate of Gordon went up, his averages would increase. If Tobias' usage went up, you see nothing.
Obviously yes. Tobias is the most garbage player-to- contract situation I’ve ever had the displeasure of watching. I would rather have Al Horford on his contract because at least he could’ve given us some backup center minutes.
I think Tobias is complete garbage. But if we’re talking about players where you cannot quantify their effect in stats, they’re not part of a “big” anything. Aaron Gordon and KCP are not Draymond/Gobert level defenders. That’s the only way you could talk yourself into someone who isn’t proficient at scoring being in a conversation like this. I’m just saying this guy talking about how the Nuggets have an all-star starting 5 like the Celtics do is ridiculous. You put any player in the Celtics starting 5 on the Blazers and he’s an all-star candidate stats wise.
Aaron Gordon and KCP aren’t former dpoy and that’s what they’re not recognized for their defensive impact like those guys. They are fuckn great defenders. I agree that the nugs don’t have 4 “all stars,” but if your reasoning is “but Tobias Harris…” wtf do you expect me to say
Then we agree. I’m just using Tobias as a benchmark to show that’s a ridiculous claim to say there’s 4 all-stars on Denver. If you want to say they play at borderline all-star level in the playoffs, I could be persuaded. MPJ and Murray absolutely do. But that’s also a product of Jokic. They aren’t all-stars without him minus Murray.
Tobias is the worst benchmark I could imagine using for all the reasons I stated in my op.
That’s my point. These guys are not stars. They’re good starters/elite role players. The term star should be reserved for great players.
But they are way, way better than Tobi, so it’s a bad comparison. Here we are back at the beginning. Goodbye
Gordon and KCP for that matter are in a system that utilizes them properly. You would be just as disappointed with them if they replaced Tobias and Melton or Heild, because we do not have a system
>Gordon and KCP for that matter are in a system that utilizes them properly. Reminds me when KD discounted Kawhi as just being a 'system player'. lol
But we’ve seen KCP and Gordon in systems that they were not nearly as complimentary. We don’t have that cor Kawhi.
This is a straight garbage take, fucking ooof
>Tobias Harris has better averages than Porter. You sealed your fate with this one. 🤣
You know that’s a literal indisputable fact, right? Go look at the season averages. I think Tobias is a fucking bum and I would rather have Joe Ingles on the court than him, I’m just saying that MPJ is not an all-star. If Tobias is putting up better counting stats than you, you’re not an All-star.
I'm not disputing that. What I was alluding to is the fact that most people in here despise Tobi, so many will go out of their way to dispute your claim regardless of tangible evidence. At the end of the day, what separates a star from a role player is their ability to change the game. I'm taking MPJ all day, everyday.
I misinterpreted you. MPJ is a borderline star in my opinion. I just think that there’s no way Aaron Gordon could be considered a star. He would’ve been borderline to me even in Orlando. He’s a star like DeAndre Ayton or Pistons Drummond is/was a star. It looks good in the box score but it’s not like it looks.
People don’t wanna hear it, but Embiid mindset is part of the problem. He doesn’t trust his guys enough. Sometimes he wants to do it all himself. Embiid needs to make the right play every single time. Even if guys miss shots. He tries too many times to break doubles and I think that’s a problem.
But Embiid isn’t as smart of a player as Jokic is. Jokic consistently makes the right play. Joel doesn’t. And Jokic is a much better passer on top of that. That’s why he’s an incredible facilitator and wins, and a major reason why Joel stalls in the playoffs (injuries don’t help either). But Jokic doesn’t get hurt as often. Why? Because he doesn’t exert nearly as much energy. He can stand there and make the right read. He doesn’t need to barrel downhill. He isn’t trying to crush people with his athleticism. So he doesn’t get hurt and makes winning plays.
I agree, and on some level I don't blame him because I feel like his entire experience in the NBA so far is basically "well if I don't do everything, the team will falter". It's time for him to mature into a new role IMO where the priority is making the right play and encouraging other guys to step up rather than the priority being scoring 35+
Exactly. And what you'll find over time is when it's apparent guys suck, your front office will better be able to put non-sucky players around them. Because then it's obvious what Embiid needs to succeed.
And even now, the team did indeed lose after he had a single bad quarter lol. Meanwhile Brunson has two stinkers and Knicks still get the W
Precisely.
When we get rid of tobias we dont need another max player. We need actual role players before we give maxey his contract.
I’ve lived around Denver for 3 years now and I’ve seen the nuggets play a few times. It’s crazy how well they move the ball and to see jokic play with an outstanding supporting crew is such a great experience. Also, I was never one to compare jokic and embiid because they have, to me, totally different styles where jokic is a freak of nature and embiid is like a cursed phenom. Thinking that he started this season on such a great tear (again), only to end up struggling like this…again… just bums me out.
If Jokic was on the Sixers yes he would be worse but only because simply joining the Sixers makes everyone a worse player.
Jokic would cook with Harris, horford and Simmons. Horford has an extremely high bball IQ. I know it didn’t work out when he played for Philly but look at his career. He would thrive with jokic. Harris would simply score more as that’s what players do playing jokic. He would find him better open looks. Almost can’t miss opportunities. Simmons would be a tough one but there was a time when Aaron gordan looked really bad offensively before he played with joker
Someone actually understands basketball… and what is wrong with this team. It isn’t a talent thing. Every player in the NBA is not an ISO dominant scorer, it isn’t a talent issue we have, it is a “good basketball” issue, we have no offensive system other than playing iso basketball, and we don’t play to anyones strengths. Joel may be the most talented player in the league, but he does not yet make anyone “better” and most here are not ready for that conversation, so it is easier to just blame Tobias.
I'll paraphrase what Barkley once said about players "making other players around them better". "Magic got to make Kareem, Jamal Wilkes, Norm Nixon and James Worthy better. Bird got to make Robert Parish, Kevin McHale and Dennis Johnson better. I have to make Scotty Brooks, Manute Bol and Terry Catledge better." Some players are just better fits as teammates and in a successful playing system. Sometimes players who were originally thought of as potentially star players don't live up to that title but are self aware enough to mold their game into something that fits into a new team & scheme. Gordon, KCP and Porter, Jr fit into that category. Meanwhile, Oubre Jr also fits that category and thrived both with and without Joel. Tobias never adjusted to fit in. Batum is a glue player but he's at the end of his NBA career. Hield completely vanished under the spotlights, even despite the open shots Embiid's gravity provided him. The Sixers got lucky to find Maxey and he's thrived in Philly & beside Joel. The Sixers haven't been able to identify the types of player to put around Joel and the roster is always in flux instead of finding the parts that fit and developing them into a cohesive unit like Denver has. Next season with all that cap space, the Sixers will once again try and find some mercs to place alongside Embiid & Maxey. Instead of trying to obtain mid to high first round draft picks that can help the team on cheaper rookie contracts and developing them, we're going to go star hunting and fill out the roster with has been & never was's. I can't blame Joel, he's improved his game each season and has added playmaking to his MVP bag. And now, we've seen the Knicks, Pacers and Orlando pass us by in the East and N.O. & OKC pass us by in the West all during our post Process playoff years. It's frustrating as hell.
Has Oubre really thrived or has he passed some sort of Philly eye test scoring enough buckets at some of the lowest percentages of his career? I don’t put it all on Joel, butwe don’t have a system. This gravity you speak of works when guys play basketball the right way all the time and not just when they feel like it. No one on this team even has a chance to get into a consistent offensive rhythm other than our two ball dominant stars. If you were to look at the number of offensive possessions that are Joel’s shot attempts and FT attempts, and maxey iso’s…how many more possessions are there really in a basketball game? And are we using them to get anyone else in a consistent rhythm or are we expecting someone to just be a third option on any given night? I’d actually argue that Kelly thrives in scoring because he operates in a bit of chaos offensively. The idea that Tobias never adjusted to fit in, Batum is too old (after literally saving this team in the play in), or that Buddy Heild vanished under the spotlight is really just ignoring the real problem.
Oubre is a scorer, not a shooter. He can score in streaks and is a threat to attack the basket. He creates his own form of pressure on the defense. Does he thrive on chaos? Sure, because a scorer can create his own shot when plays break down or in transition. He can drive and kick for an open 3 because the defense has to honor his drives. And, his aggressivness creates fouls. Plus, he has put in the effort on defense and rebounding. All these are valuable traits for a player and for a team to have. I agree that this team has never had a cohesive and successful offensive philosophy in the post Process era. For years, Doc's system of DHO's with Embiid getting the ball 25 feet from the basket wasn't anywhere near ideal. Most of the successful teams in the playoffs have a system that creates shots before the shot clock gets to 20. Hopefully Nurse can do better with the system with the roster Morey can give him next season. Tobias has never fit his game in with the team. He would rather dribble and back down his man instead of taking the open 3s that the offense gives him. He has the weakest 6'9 rim attack for a starter in this league and absolutely disappears when the games are bigger. I love Batum, but don't forget that he almost retired before the season and hasn't confirmed if he's sticking around the NBA for another year....supposedly he and his family wants to finish his career in his home country of France. I never said he was old, I said he might retire. Batum is exactly what we were told PJ was...and more. We need Batum. And Buddy did vanish at season's end and by the time the playoffs hit, he was barely in the rotation and was shooting horribly. We need the regular season sharpshooter he has been all his career. This is his first playoffs tho, so hopefully he will settle down in the future because he's the type of shooter the team needs.
People here are LEGIT making statement that Jokic would do nothing if he is 76ers team with bunch of losers; forgetting he took team where Austin Rivers, Facundo Campazzo and Will Bartun were starters to second round of play off.
It is a strange combination of victim+mobb mentality in this sub, and after this season is over, when Harris will be gone…unless the most talented player in the world decides or is coached to properly play a different brand of basketball…we will be subscribing to the same thing again, just identifying a new scapegoat
C'mon dude, Tobias is terrible. I don't even think playing with Jokic could fix this guy rn. The rest of your comment is correct though .
The rest of my comment is the point. The idea that Tobias should be better the way we play is absurd to me. We cant find Batum an open shot consistently , Buddy Heild has become a significantly worse 3 point shooter on this team, Horford immediately becomes better after leaving. Harris is an easy target because of his salary, but there are a lot of players in the league who are just not iso ball dominant superstars who would thrive a lot differently in a system like the nuggets compared to a (lack of) system like the sixers.
Again I think that's fair, but Tobias gets chances to make easy layups, shoot open 3s, box out and rebound the ball every single game. He doesn't do any of those consistently. He's also been worse on defense this year whereas in previous years you could actually expect him to be decent on that end. I think both your comments and Tobias being significantly worse than typical this season is true. Tobias used to be a consistent 20 point guy on this same team with worse spacing.
And this is where I tend to think that this sub has really just convinced themselves of certain things. He’s not the teams rebounding problem or the teams defensive problem. In fact I would go as far as to say he might be the teams most capable defender and playing two undersized guards hurts us more in both of those categories. Multiple times down the stretch of games this series he was downright SOLID defending Brunson, OG and Hart one on one. I don’t think it is a “spacing” issue for him, I think it is an overall style of basketball issue for him and others this year. Some nights someone (outside of Maxey and Joel) on the team has a hot hand and shoots above 60%. No one does it consistently and no one is expected to. But Tobias is expected to score 20ppg. At his usage, unless…how?
> He’s not the teams rebounding problem I agree with most of what you're saying except this line. When Embiid is the only one contesting shots and getting boxed out by two players, it falls on the 4 to clean up rebounds and that's Tobias' job. And most of the time it looks like he just gives zero effort at that part of the game unless it's a completely uncontested rebound.
The nuggets all rebound well every player gets them and that’s how you get stops you have to rebound and it’s the most under utilized stat
In the game 2 end of game chaos, Tobi boxed his guy out and went for the ball. Jo stayed on the floor and lazily boxed out Hart, who I'd argue was already matched w Kyle Lowry, leaving Hartenstein open for an easy rebound. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9CGOGXGkHU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9CGOGXGkHU)
I think the nuggets are underrated on defense Aaron Gordon is a beast Kcp is too and mpj has improved and Jamal and jokic have too and we rebound really well so yeah a rebound is potentially in basketball it’s either an extra possession or a stop and we do it really well
Joel definitely makes players better, but in comparison to jokic, he comes up short. The idea that Joel doesn’t get easy shots for these guys is fucking laughable
Joel doesn’t get them open shots. They are open because of Joel. There’s a slight difference there. It’s hard for anyone to randomly be called on to make a big shot when they haven’t been involved in the offensive game throughout. Players need to find a rhythm. They need to be involved. Nuggets keep everyone involved. They play smart. Jokic conserves energy and still affects the game because he plays intelligent basketball. Jo doesn’t. Jo overpowers with talent.
This. It is somewhat easy to overlook how often Joel doesn’t make the right basketball play because of how talented he is. The high clip he hits the midrange and the frequency he gets to the FT line are great, but sometimes hitting the open man in the corner is actually the right play and goes beyond the stat sheet when teammates know how we are playing together
It’s actually a pretty big effective difference. It’s the difference between making the smart play consistently versus having guys open because you draw so much attention. Making the smart play consistently is a better winning strategy.
You are choosing to ignore the point because you are overly sensitive about anything that may remotely seem like Joel criticism. Obviously the most talented player on earth will at times make players better, but the way this team plays does not. Joel is not a great passer, neither is Tyrese and their isos are pretty much the only offense we have if you are being honest with the way we play. Against a disciplined defensive team (especially in the playoffs) I’ll argue that it is more difficult for your role players to be effective without a better offensive scheme to find some sort of rhythm. What we are doing is just rolling the dice that guy(s) will make shots in limited and random opportunities. When it happens and they are hot, we get Batum in the play-in. When it doesnt, we say Joel has no help and everyone sucks. We actually had a better offensive scheme without Joel on the floor when Doc was here (something else no one wants to admit)
Not choosing to ignore anything, I directly addressed it. Jokic is the best in the world at creating for teammates, so Joel will look worse in comparison. But we’re prisoners of the moment, Embiid makes smart passes out of doubles, is very good at finding cutters, and sees over the defense at an elite level with his face ups. He doesn’t have an elite finisher and rebounder to pass to in that situation, and our best cutter is 6ft tall. If we hit 2 more shots in the 4th quarter, we wouldn’t be acting like Embiid doesn’t make players better. Again, he’s not as good as jokic, and I’d say Luka is better, but has the same type of flaws offensively as Embiid.
>But we’re prisoners of the moment, Embiid makes smart passes out of doubles, is very good at finding cutters, and sees over the defense at an elite level with his face ups. He doesn’t have an elite finisher and rebounder to pass to in that situation, and our best cutter is 6ft tall. I'm not sure I've watched the same Embiid playoff career as you. This is by far the worst aspect of his game.
I mean playoff Embiid is an injured animal. And he’s been way worse at passing in the past than he is now
He doesn’t pass at an elite level or with consistency. Could he? I have no doubt he could, considering his skill level at anything he cares to do.
You don’t have to be an elite passer to make teammates better. How many elite passers are even in the league? Joel makes teammates better, he’s just not the best in the world at it. His biggest problem is his mentality.
I'm sorry but there's no way. I mean yes, they'd be a playoff team, but so was Joel + those guys. The Nuggets are worldbeaters because they have arguably the best starting five in the league and fit together like a fucking glove.
Timberwolves, thunder and Boston all have better rosters top to bottom. Denver has the best player. Their offense is amazing because they have arguably the best playmaking big man of all time. Are we really comparing these two again? Jokic’s stats are better in the playoffs when embiid’s take a step back. Their talent is close but jokic is the better player at this point.
I'm not denying that. But saying that Jokic would do anything meaningful with Simmons Horford and Tobias is just Bill Simmons-level fanboy-ism
Horford has played well everywhere he’s been except Philly so that wouldn’t be hard for him to do. I mean jokic played alongside plumlee and milsap and elevated their games. Even dudes like Bryn Forbes and Bol bol played better with jokic. I don’t know if anyone could fix Simmons mental game. So I would agree with him but jokic is the best passing big man in the league in transition and Simmons thrived in transition so it’s not far fetched to see that at least working. Lastly, Harris would play a little better. He’s lost on Philly. He’s not a creator anymore and Philly has no true passer first players. Look at how jokic elevated Bruce brown’s game the year they played together. Did the same with will barton. Those guys doing any better than Tobias Harris if they played in Philly?
Ok but like what the fuck are we even talking about here? Joel with those guys was a 6th seed. I highly doubt Jokic would be any better, in fact we *know* that Jokic and meh players begets a sixth seed. So what's your point? There's no universe where Jokic "cooks" with that roster any further than the first round, so it's just a meaningless comment
It’s not crazy to think that a better player and better play maker would do better with those players. I don’t get how can’t understand this.
> I don’t get how can’t understand this. Maybe because the point is shit? What are you actually saying? That Jokic would get out of the second round with that crew? Fat chance. That Jokic + Horford + Tobias with Simmons hurt don't get swept by Boston in the bubble? Awesome
Jokic horford and Tobias is a better combination than embiid horford Tobias. I think they at least don’t get swept by Boston because jokic is a better player than embiid. Possibly win that series
I disagree. While Jokic certainly elevates the play of his costars more so than embiid, and is leaps and bounds far better playmaker, Jokic has gotten more help through his team than embiid has. We have seen embiid make passes to open shooters who can’t make shit. Make passes to open dunkers who won’t dunk or get their dunk blocked. Embiid, until Maxey, hasn’t had a player grow up with him who can help him out on offense and make those tough shots or drives that can bail a team out (I consider Harden and butler temporary hires who weren’t here long enough to build chemistry with him). While my post can come across as hateful of nuggets or Jokic, the truth of the matter is I’m jealous. They built the right team around him while embiid has been hampered by poor management, untimely injuries, and I guess the learning curve he had to go through in the nba after not picking up a basketball until he was in high school.
Embiid has played with more all stars than jokic and more championship winning coaches. There was a time Mike Malone was considered overrated. Imagine what jokic would do with buddy hield or Kelly oubre? Everyone is jealous of jokic. The difference is GM, Connelly for Denver was legit and specialized in identifying cheap value talent. Jokic makes it all work because he is the most unselfish basketball player in the league. Possibly of all time. He doesn’t care about getting his head just wants to advance the ball and score.
My guy. Buddy hield can’t even get open and when he does he’s bricking shots. Kelly oubre had one of his best years here. Jokic isn’t magically making his teammates get open and make shots. His teammates run around to get open. And the all star thing - Ben Simmons is an all star. It has no value. Harden was past him prime. On the other hand Jamal Murray and Michael porter jr would easily be the second and 3rd best players on this team. And until oubre we had no one who could properly dunk with authority. You think Jokic can make past prime harden, who’s ball dominant, better? You think he can make Tobias, who needs ball in his hands and screens set for him, any better? You think he can fix fultz shot? You think he can make all star Ben Simmons dunk that ball against the hawks? Let’s be honest here. They built a great team around Jokic perfect for his skills. And sixers have failed to do that. And this has impacted the legacy of both guys.
Have you watched harden this season? Idk if he’s that far past his prime. Also until his stint with the 76ers Harden was one of the most unselfish players on the court. Buddy heild was on fire before he came to the 6ers and is sti one of the best 3 point shooters. Jokic would have them shooting wide open 3’s like he does for Reggie Jackson and dude for guys like bones hyland and monte morris. Caldwell pope has been a better shooter since coming to the nuggets. I wonder why? Players come to Philly and play worse with embiid and the opposite happens with Denver and jokic. Look at the amount of all stars. Embiid is playing with more and has played with more throughout his career. It’s just a fact. Tobias needs to shoot better and get open. Look at his Detroit pistons and clippers days. That was the recipe. Just look at his shooting percentages before he got to Philly. Jokic would easily do that for him. I agree with you that the nuggets built a better team but c’mon man just admit it Jokic is the better player right now. If you can’t see that than your watching the nba with blinders on.
No he wouldnt buddy. Jokic and 3 power forwards would still be a disaster
This is the new trend to be successful in the NBA. You have 2 stars, usually homegrown, and a bunch of role players who play those roles really well and a coach that has a system. We have 2 of those things, it’s the rest of the roster that needs help. And contrary to popular belief that starts with a decent backup center like Drummond or Claxton
I’m hoping that Daryl can build this roster finally with some cap space available. Get younger and more athletic. This is the last chance we’ll have with embiid.
Who is the nuggets backup center?
Deandre has played in the playoffs for them lol
They go small when Jokic sits with Peyton Wallace at center. They survive because they have other players on the team that can do stuff. MPJ Gordon Braun Jackson and KCP aren’t going to go 6 minutes without making a shot…
Oh I agree totally. Just think it’s funny DJ has played meaningful minutes this year
But even he looks fine for them. Its not because he’s better than he was on the sixers.
Ya people don't understand that backup center hasn't really been our problem. We can't score without Embiid on the court. Tobias is the biggest issue. He's being paid to be a scorer, and in non Embiid minutes, the last 5 years it should've been Tobi time. But we've gotten nothing from him.
Deandre? Braun? The difference is that Jokic stays healthy. He’s played 79 games this season and 69 last year. This isn’t a knock on Jo because it’s out of his control but you need someone to positively contribute off the bench when he rests so he can stay healthier/rested for the playoffs
It was a rhetorical question. Jordan has played some minutes and Peyton Watson (a 6’ 7” second year forward) has played the majority of the back up center minutes. My point of the question was to show and state that backup center doesn’t matter for the Sixers (or the nuggets). The Sixers issue is they can’t score with embiid off the floor because of the rosters lack of talent and shot creation (the Sixers are 16-60 from the floor with embiid off the court against the Knicks). Claxton, Drummond, or any backup center isn’t going to fix the offensive issue and backup center is the least of Morey’s concerns this offseason.
The Nuggets stink with Jokic off the floor too. They’re just insanely good when he’s on it.
Any team is going to be worse with one of the best players in the world off the floor.. nuggets with jokic off the floor >>>>>> sixers with embiid off the floor. The point was putting money or making a backup center isn’t a priority. The nuggets don’t have one and won the title last year because they have a great and complementary roster.
I agree that backup center isn’t the reason why the sixers don’t succeed. But I don’t think the nuggets are that much better with their star off the floor. The Nuggets won also because Jokic is the best player in the world and his style lifts every other player up. His IQ is off the charts and he makes the right read and play consistently.
Jokic is great, I agree. However, the nuggets third best playoff player isn’t a 38 year old buyout guy. They have a huge playoff riser in Murray, a guy who can drop 30 any night in MPJ (and averaged over 25 a game against the lakers in the first round), and a glue guy who can do it all a little in Aaron Gordon. Their 5th starter, kcp, would play 40 playoff minutes a game for us. The nuggets roster as a whole is significantly better than the Sixers roster.
I think Jokic makes all of them look better by reading the court incredibly well and consistently making the right play. It’s hard for role players to do their jobs consistently well when Joel ISOs so often. I think their roster is better, but it’s not by as much as people think. Jokic is just a cut above the rest, and his ability to basically just chill and read the court makes defending him and everyone else on his team extremely difficult. It also prevents him from constantly being injured.
Absolutely Joel ISOs make it difficult for the role players. I think we largely agree. To me it appears, I’m just much more down on the Sixers supporting cast than you are. If Lowry, our third best playoff player so far this season, had been a picked up by the nuggets he might be getting 10 minutes a game. Not sure if anyone else on our roster (ignoring maxey and embiid) would get any minutes on the nuggets.. if they did it wouldn’t be more than 5 or 10 minutes a game. Lowry is currently playing 35 minutes for us. To me, that speaks great volumes to their roster just being much better.
You bring up a good point. I’m coming at it from a defensive point of view to fill that gap when he’s off the floor. Secure the ball, block shots. I think the one thing we both can agree on is that both areas need to be addressed
Aaron Gordon
The nuggets run Gordon most of the time as back up center it’s the fact jokic can play for 35 or 40 minutes a game that is ok
We practically have a new team every year aside from duds who can't play and should have been moved on years ago, and Embiid. And this year Maxey as PG. Even throwing super teams together never works their first season together. Unfortuntely next year is yet another shake up. But Embiid, Maxey already have chemistry,, I would keep Oubre, Ricky Council to give him more run, Lowry also due to low salary and what he offers as a long player in Nurse's system and locker room etc,,,, the rest can go (Batum has earned a happy retirement) and I hope the chemistry between the above can be maintained and Morey finds some guys that fit in the off season. And for god's sake get a servicable backup big that can give Embiid some rest without him feeling like he's gotta play 48mins of the 82games just to stop us falling off a cliff. I don't care if we don't play him a minute in playoffs, just that he can help Embiid get to playoffs NOT injured or NOT burnt out on the brink of injury.
I think we need to acknowledge that fact that winning with a ball dominant big man who isn’t a great passer or facilitator is very difficult. Joel’s style doesn’t make it easy for role player to play their part. Constantly trying to use your athleticism against guys, hoping for an easy bucket or a foul call, doesn’t work as well in the playoffs. It also leads to more injuries. Making the right read and play plays anywhere. Jokic barely looks like he’s trying a lot of the time because he can read the court so well.
I think this might be it. Joel might have to shift his focus to defense and rebound more, and leave the offense to maxey and hopefully a good 3rd option.
The Nuggets offense runs the rough Jokic most of the time too. He just doesn’t feel the need to score if he doesn’t have a perfect opportunity to do so. He doesn’t face up and ISO. He doesn’t constantly try and bully his way to the basket. He takes what’s given to him. He makes the right read and therefore the right play. I honestly think Joel could play more that way. He’s not as good of a passer. But he has the better physical traits even if his IQ isn’t quite as high.
maybe it's because Jokic can go 25/20/9 on 0 FT on his bad night
Hard to get 20 assists when only one other guy on you team does anything.
at least get 25/20 without any FT then
tbh, I knew many of us don't like to hear that Ben Simmons did great in rebounding in defense (not talking about offense) and it covered Joel rebounding problem before Anyway, Gordon and MPJ really doing great job in their role to support Jokic
It's because of jokic, that the other players look so good. His skill and willingness to pass the ball encourages the team to run into space. Not to mention jokic own effort, running up and down the court. The guy is running full speed for the entire game. Ain't no way embiid does any of that. Put another way, put embiid in Denver, and those players aren't moving and passing the way they do now, and with the way Joel plays, they also wouldn't be getting the touches or shots they are getting now, which usually means worst performances from them too.
Jokic is by far the best player in the league. I used to try to make arguments otherwise, but there isn't any...
He took team where Austin \`Rivers, Facundo fakin Campazzo and Will Barton were starters to play off and second round. Yeah, you have no idea what you are talking about lol
The Nuggets were built properly with complimentary players who aren’t afraid to contribute or do what it takes to win. That’s the difference.
Ben in his prime would have been a monster playing with Jokic. Like a supercharged AG
guys just fit really good around Jokic. Gordon is a #4 pick with elite athleticism, perfect for Jokic's vision/passing. Murray is a good #2 with size. MPJ is a big athletic wing that can shoot. They have been stable for multiple years so play really well together. Biggest issue with the sixers is roster mismanagement/luck. Absolutely have bungled the roster numerous times, but they also have been forced to by multiple holdouts that "reset" the lineup construction twice now. Next year once again, a complete starting lineup overhaul. This is the last chance to build a roster, and honestly, even if a beautiful lineup is built around Embiid, it will take a couple years to fully gel like the Nuggets are now. Not saying they can't win but they will need to gel really fast and be a perfect fit
I will say a lot of embiids constant demands for the ball are the fact is still believes he has to do it all himself. Surround him with better roster maybe he becomes more unselfish
Yea for sure. I mean it’s evident in the numbers. Guy sits and all of a sudden we are losing by 10 points.
Hoo oo o ly cope.
Seriously wondering are the teams where the others contribute well more likely to have had some stability over the years. We really haven’t strung more than 1.5 seasons where our best pieces are playing together and our backups are somewhat consistent. How do you build chemistry with all this turnover?
Watching Sixers infuriates me so I don’t watch them anymore
so stop watching them.
You’re downplaying the Nuggets coaching staff and FO. They develop well and build their team with players that know their role. They play to their strengths. I don’t get to watch a ton of Nuggets games but when I do, they rarely waste a possession. They didn’t become great overnight. They built it. Something the Sixers front office has failed to do. I don’t hate Jokic…never understood why anyone would.
More mad that AD gets injured every playoffs yet no one says shit because he won the Mickey Mouse championship because of lebron
This is the equivalent of people saying embiid doesn’t get enough hate.
To be fair I think everyone knows AD is not at Embiid’s level so Embiid gets more scrutiny
Maybe in the regular season. In the post-season they are a push. AD played just as well this playoffs as Embiid did and he did it with 9% less usage rate.