People are against hybrids because they can impact the purity of the captive population. For example, in the captive fish world, Poecilia wingei (Endler's) and Poecilia reticulata (your run-of-the-mill guppy) breed easily; but with the scarcity (or even extinction) of Endler's in the wild, a lot of people are against crossbreeding. The resulting Endler-guppies are re-introduced to pet stores and breeders with incorrect labels, and it's feasible that one day there will be no more available pure Endler's.
Hybrids can also be considered unnatural; but in some cases, populations do overlap and hybrids can be found in the wild.
Ultimately it's a matter of opinion. It's fine to dislike hybrids; it's also fine to enjoy them. As long as they're properly labelled I see no issue
this makes sense!! like axolotls, almost all pet ones have tiger salamander genetics from hybrid breeding in the past. they think those genes are what cause axolotls to occasionally morph which is a big issue because they become a different and much more specialist creature to care for
I think the most valid concerns with hybrids is the fear about mislabeled hybrids being sold as pure-bred, and the innate unpredictability of a hybrid animal's care needs.
The argument about hybrids being unnatural, however? I wholeheartedly reject it, don't consider it a valid argument at all. As others have already mentioned, there are some naturally-occurring hybrids. Even if that wasn't the case, there is nothing inherently harmful about "unnatural" hybrids beyond the concerns already outlined. The association of natural=good and unnatural=bad is a logical fallacy.
So if you're responsible, not misleading people on the purity of the animals in question, and taking responsibility for learning the unique care requirements of a hybrid animal, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with hybrids.
There actually is inherent harm in hybrids being unnatural.
When the two species being combined have different temperature and humidity requirements its next to impossible to provide proper care for them.
1. This is a separate concern, addressed in the "unpredictable care requirements" point I made earlier. This is still not inherent harm, as a hybrid animal can be perfectly healthy but just need some special attention to learn its needs.
2. Depends on the hybrids. Something like a ball python X green tree python hybrid could have very unpredictable needs, as these species occupy very different ecological niches. But a hybrid between a central rat snake and a corn snake, or between different species of Lampropeltis, or even a Pantherophis X Lampropeltis cross? These species occupy very similar niches and often have extremely similar care requirements, and thus their hybrids have relatively predictable care needs compared to some other hybrids.
Obviously hybrids involve a lot of inherent unpredictability, but that's not the same as inherent harm. Breeding animals in general also involves this unpredictability, as no animal is ever guaranteed to be born healthy. We should do what we can to try to maximize good outcomes (probably shouldn't make ball X green tree hybrids), but drawing the line and saying "hybrids always bad" I don't think is the answer.
Sorry for the late reply, I have been wanting to reply for a while but forgot about it.
It is not unnatural, some species hybrid in the wild (morelias, bitis, etc).
But that doesn't mean shit. We don't know how viable those animals are, possible malformations inside, illness, etc. We already know certain morphs lead to brain malfunctioning because it has visible effects, we don't know what else can be there.
If it eats and poops people assume eveything is perfect.
So from a pure enthusiast about the animals but putting their safety and well being first, it is a totally no for me and I think many other people.
Plus, sometimes with wild animals it's because of how we as humans have pushed them.. like different species of wolves breeding with coyotes.. something quite abnormal because the two animals otherwise act like they hate one another most of the time.
As an alaskan and a biology obsessed genetics amateur... grolars and pizzlies exist because polar bears are a variant mutation that split off roughly about 8-12,000 years ago
White coats were advantageous to hunting in their areas, and while yes, they are *physically* and somewhat genetically distinct there is still a very very wide amount of dna there thats still 'grizzly' coded so to speak
If anything pizzlies and grolars are the best sign possible because it means the species gets to keep that genetic 'switch' for white or brown fur without leunism or albinism being involved, polar bears are honestly one of the weakest arguments for extinction/hybrid breed arguments
I think its easier to use fish examples because the population %'s and the actual impact is quicker and easy to see
I think hybrids really don't matter on a domestic pet scale as long as they're properly labeled and cared for
However i don't think its wise to say, continuing crossing bloodlines etc even across different family groups etc, to create a new 'species' via hybridization as it introduces a lot of other risks (see flowerhorn hybrid fish)
Grolars and pizzlies. First letter is based on the sire, so a grolar has a grizzly father, and a pizzly has a polar bear father.
They’re smaller than polar bears, but larger than grizzlies. Their fur is blond to light brown, and they’re reported to be aggressive. More, these hybrid offspring are fertile. An adult female hybrid was spotted with grizzly-appearing cubs.
It was recently discovered that a whale species (blue, iirc), had actually been mating and hybridizing with other whale species, and I suspect this would not be happening, or at least it would be far more rare, if we hadn't driven them to near extinction, then filled the seas with a cacophony of industrial noise pollution, both of which make finding a mate far more difficult.
The anthropocene sucks.
Edit: Love when the gutless downvotes without comment😅
That's just Reddit and communities in general. You get the jerks, you get the ghosts and the sheep in every community 🤷♀️.. my mum always joked that jerks/assholes are strategically placed so you always run into at least one 🤣.
But you get the good people too, just gotta put up with the others to find the good ones.
It is worth noting these breeder hybrids are only make because humans are forcing two species to mate. that imo is entirely unnatural. Like ligers.
Thank you for mentioning invisible malforimities. It's scary to think how many snakes could be suffering because of the invisible effects of inbreeding.
The major problem in crossbreeds is that you never know what will be the result. If the animal is unlucky it will suffer. As snakes are usually solitary reptiles they will at least not suffer rejection by other snakes.
Still. There is no need in doing so.
No. There are known hybrids, yes. But cross breeding species is always a risk. And I am also against crossbreeding cats and serval, horse and donkey and the like.
I had this same discussion a while back and the opinion I came away with is that it depends on the hybrid. Some are absolutely unethical and problematic, such as any that are sold as something they're not, or species that really shouldn't be put together for health reasons (burmballs come to mind). But there are definitely hybrids out there that do just as well if not better than their parents. Crested x gargoyle geckos come to
mind as usually being incredibly docile and hardy, and less likely to drop their tails than normal cresties.
I think if it's a hybrid that could naturally occur in the wild (naturally as in not as a result of human activity pushing back their habitats etc.), it's not a big deal... as long as you don't try to sell it as purebred. The problem is, a lot of people who are trying to normalize hybrids produce some really fucked up crossbreeds that should never exist or they intentionally mislabel cheaper hybrids to sell them as more expensive purebreds, muddling the gene pool in the pet trade, which can result in species that are extinct in the wild also becoming extinct in the trade (like the fish example somebody else mentioned in this thread).
https://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2022/july/snake-study.html that's a college study showing that over 50% of owners can't adequately take care of their animals. Then wild animals are captured for the pet trade put stress on wild populations. But now the 50% who can actually take care of their animals breed them for color specifics and cross breed with other species. So when the time comes that we need to pull from private owners to save wild population we are screwed.
I only keep wildtypes, it’s good to know that I may be useful sometime in the future lol.
I just like having that piece of nature in my house, and being friends with it.
This being said I’m Australian and I think it’s a bit less of an issue here, morphs haven’t become nearly as popular yet, with normal types still being widely available. I think that’s changing though.
If you look through the pets for sale ads in my area, wild type pattern snakes are very hard to find for some species, ball pythons, burns/retics, bci's...
If you want wild type appearance without half a dozen hets (pure blood)...good luck with that. May as well go hunting for Bigfoot.
A major part of the problem with hybridization is that in many ways, it's throwing the spaghetti at the wall and seeing if it sticks. Think about the super balls you mentioned. They have, essentially, short tail sized soft tissue on a ball python skeleton. They don't have a skeleton designed to support that much weight, especially not if they have the ball parent's proclivity for climbing.
People need to be careful about hybrids, the entire US captive population of flavi monitors is practically extinct because of hybridization with Argus monitors.
This is a bit off topic, but also hybrid venomous snakes are an absolutely insane no-no. Trying to treat a snakebite from a hybrid viper is a fool’s guessing game of which antivenin, if any, will actually work.
I believe hybrids are completely unethical.
Yes, in some cases in the wild when you have 2 different species occupying overlapping areas of land you will see hybrids occur naturally - that's fine it happens. However in captivity this isn't the case, people are purposefully breeding two snakes that would more often than not never cross paths all for the sake of aesthetics. We have no idea what traits the offspring will display from each parent or what humidity or heating requirements they need to thrive.
Take super balls for example (Sumatran x ball python), they are completely unethical and unnatural because they would never ever cross paths in the wild seeing as they live on 2 different continents. They each require vastly different husbandry and have different lifespans. How are we meant to care for them? What health problems will they have down the road? What health problems could their offspring have that we don't know about yet? And how many snakes will people kill or unknowingly shorten their lifespan over not providing the correct husbandry for them? Not to mention each offspring may display different preferences for the husbandry requirements of the mother/father and so just because one way of doing things may work for one specimen, it may be detrimental to the well-being of another snake (even from the same clutch).
What's the use of breeding hybrids? Especially since ball pythons are not endangered and as far as I'm aware neither are blood pythons (all because of breeding for the pet trade). Could they survive in the wild? And which continent would that be? (Btw, I am in no way condoning releasing pets back into the wild, I'm merely using this as a way to showcase how they are unnatural and how it makes it difficult to care for them due to it). As far as I'm concerned, people only breed them because they can. Not enough people are taking care of ball pythons correctly despite the plethora of information available and adding a hybrid with mystery husbandry seems to spell disaster.
If people want more 'interesting' morphs there's already so many available without having to create hybrids.
I think it can be a very nuanced topic. Hybridizing two very closely related species (like any of the Antaresia genus) is fine. The snakes are so similar that the children (ba-dum-ts) will most likely not have serious issues. It becomes a bigger issue when we are talking about snakes that are more distantly related and occupy different ecological niches. Python curtus x Python regius is a hybrid that should not have been.
Yeah, I'm also of the opinion that there is no reason to hybridize. Just because it can work doesn't mean it should. We still don't know enough to say that the incidental ones in the wild do as well. But my biggest fear is the attitude. Pets aren't toys. I've seen people make gabinos. That is a terrifying idea. I know where certain rattle snake species hybridize in the wild their venom can get really nasty. You should check out some of the papers Dr. Mackessy had come out with.
I think other people have touched on this, but it’s kind of like forcing things to “look cool” with no actual benefit for the snake. If it’s not going to help a snake live a natural life, then we shouldn’t do it. It’s the same reason so many people are against things like the spider gene in ball pythons.
They pop up in garter snakes too.
In the wild, hybrids are usually sterile and novelties that can be appreciated but I'd never encourage intentional hybridization of different garter snake species. I feel it risks the diversity of thamnophis. Each subspecies is so unique and deserves to be celebrated and preserved!
You will have issues if you need to repopulate the wild.
And they do use surrendered animals to repopulate the wild - for eg. macaws in Costa Rica. They used animals from shelters and let them have eggs, the captive ones are kept captive while juveniles bred from captives were released to repopulate Costa Rica.
I don't see it much from the snake people (though I am not active since I don't even have captive snakes), but this hybridization is almost a taboo and bannable offense if you go to the pdf subs/communities. At least that's the impression I get from them.
Captive animal keeping in general is "unnatural and unnecessary".
As is any breed of dog or cat.
And all the reptile morphs.
Hell, the entire *species* of dog is something we came up with.
My $0.02 on the subject is that we're not breeding these animals and releasing them in the wild. As long as keepers actually, you know, *keep* them and the resulting animal is healthy and doesn't end up with weird issues, it doesn't hurt anything.
That is very true, but one can argue that the seemingly better life given to a captive snake justifies keeping it? I'm probably just coping by saying that lol. Also we don't particularly know that these animals are healthy and don't have issues, many reptiles won't start showing issues from improper husbandry till 10-15 years down the road.
>That is very true, but one can argue that the seemingly better life given to a captive snake justifies keeping it?
My point here is that we're not introducing these animals into the wild, so it doesn't affect their survivability or impact the ecosystem.
I think you're more likely to have a healthy rat/king than healthy spider ball.
I do think that people play a little fast and loose with genetics without regard for the health of the animals, but that's not really a hybrid or not discussion but more about reptile breeding in general.
I would love to see some scientific studies on the matter, but just based on what you see, hybrids seem to be pretty healthy and robust.
The issue is, the majority of hybrids don't end up healthy. Lots of them have different temp/humidity requirements so you can't care for them properly. They also suffer infertility and shortened lifespans
yup people may get mad but i don't care. its the truth. you remove all their instinct. Thats why i love snakes, you want them to keep their natural instinct.
I mean it kinda depends, here in Australia crossbreeding our Morelia snakes (mostly carpet pythons though) is extremely commonplace and I believe some of their territories overlap as well? I think if people wanna do it it should really only be with snakes we know are safe and healthy, properly safe and healthy not just “it’s alive”
i think its nbd if theyre species from the same range w the same requirements, as i assume thered be some naturally, like garter snake/ribbon snakes, corn/rats, gaboon/rhino vipers, just bc theyre already so similar and are already like the closest living relatives of each other, are usually in the same genus/group and the like. just one of those things where you need to do research on the person youre buying from, make sure theyre trustworthy and reputable, and go from there.
I think a lot of the time we loose sight of why we are doing this. Like people would argue that “I’ve been breeding this hybrid for years and never had any issues” and aside from the fact that that’s completely anecdotal evidence from an extremely biased source, I don’t care. I simply don’t give a shit how healthy YOUR animals seem to YOU. It’s not worth it. We need to remember why we are doing this. So we get animals that look cool. That’s it. That’s the one benefit of hybrids, they look interesting. Well let’s be real actually there is another benefit, they make more money.
My general opinion is, if there is cross species breeding that occurs naturally in the world it is fine. But it is then the sellers responsibility to then disclose that information when it comes to the sale of that animal. For example I am against the "Angry Ball" ie angolan python x ball python because their ranges do not cross. But something like a Mexican black kingsnake and a desert species cross breeding project I don't mind, because they frequently interbreed in the wild.
I have mixed feelings as well. It’s important to keep the genetics clean so you can preserve species in the wild. However, part of me doesn’t see the harm in doing both. Experimenting on the side, within reason, is also how we got dogs out of wolves. Obviously there can be many issues with inbreeding and creating unhealthy cross species. But again, as long as it is done with the best intention and healthy animals in the end game, then I don’t see the harm…
I tend to be of the same mind, although it doesn't bother me too much with hybridization on a species level as long as the snakes are in the same Genus. For instance Ball Pythons and Sumatran Short Tail Pythons are both in the Python genus. Kingsnakes and Corn snakes however, are two separate Genera, so I tend to not favor their hybridization. I guess ultimately it's personal preference and difference of opinion. Everyone's allowed to have their own opinions after all :)
But kings and corns atleast have similar husbandry and behavior. Ball pythons and short tail pythons have completely different husbandry and feeding requirements and different behaviors. Shit, they aren't even from the same continent.
"Naturally" can be argued, are grolar bears naturally occurring if we humans practically forced polar bears away from their natural habitat and into grizzly territory? Same goes for wolf/coyote hybrids.
That I agree with. Snakes within the same genus that share the same territory and therefore have the same living conditions generally do well but distantly related species are more difficult to care for and shouldn’t be hybridized.
Those are all fair points, but I think one "argument" that could be made is that reptiles in general have very specific husbandry requirements and combining two snakes with fairly drastic husbandry differences could end up in their detriment, because there's no real way to distinguish if the snake is more ball python, or more short-tail, for example. I also wasn't aware that the hybrids are sterile, so that's a plus for me!
Not all hybrids are sterile. Your example of the polar bear + brown bear hybrid, for example is not sterile.
Many colubrids can hybridized and produce offspring for generations (corn snakes, milk snakes, king snakes...) i do not know if your initial example of short tailed pythons and ball pythons are sterile or not
It's a miscinception that all hybridized animals are sterile simply because many of them are.
Another strong example is the American Bison and domesticated cattle. This called beefalo. However even among the wild herds only 4 herds of bison are not mixed to some degree with domestic cattle. This has helped the bison from completely dying out. And if all hybrids were sterile.. well this wouldn't have made any headway into increasing bison numbers.
Not all hybrids are sterile, this includes within reptile breeding.
[Multiple generations](https://thesnakeboss.wordpress.com/2014/11/29/hybrids-arent-firing-blanks-they-are-fully-loaded/#:~:text=There%20is%20a%20misconception%20going,that%20this%20is%20not%20true.) Are being bred and being bred back to original species as well to create different lineages of a hybrid species.
People are against hybrids because they can impact the purity of the captive population. For example, in the captive fish world, Poecilia wingei (Endler's) and Poecilia reticulata (your run-of-the-mill guppy) breed easily; but with the scarcity (or even extinction) of Endler's in the wild, a lot of people are against crossbreeding. The resulting Endler-guppies are re-introduced to pet stores and breeders with incorrect labels, and it's feasible that one day there will be no more available pure Endler's. Hybrids can also be considered unnatural; but in some cases, populations do overlap and hybrids can be found in the wild. Ultimately it's a matter of opinion. It's fine to dislike hybrids; it's also fine to enjoy them. As long as they're properly labelled I see no issue
this makes sense!! like axolotls, almost all pet ones have tiger salamander genetics from hybrid breeding in the past. they think those genes are what cause axolotls to occasionally morph which is a big issue because they become a different and much more specialist creature to care for
I better stock up on some pure endlers, lol.
Or are they???
I think the most valid concerns with hybrids is the fear about mislabeled hybrids being sold as pure-bred, and the innate unpredictability of a hybrid animal's care needs. The argument about hybrids being unnatural, however? I wholeheartedly reject it, don't consider it a valid argument at all. As others have already mentioned, there are some naturally-occurring hybrids. Even if that wasn't the case, there is nothing inherently harmful about "unnatural" hybrids beyond the concerns already outlined. The association of natural=good and unnatural=bad is a logical fallacy. So if you're responsible, not misleading people on the purity of the animals in question, and taking responsibility for learning the unique care requirements of a hybrid animal, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with hybrids.
There actually is inherent harm in hybrids being unnatural. When the two species being combined have different temperature and humidity requirements its next to impossible to provide proper care for them.
1. This is a separate concern, addressed in the "unpredictable care requirements" point I made earlier. This is still not inherent harm, as a hybrid animal can be perfectly healthy but just need some special attention to learn its needs. 2. Depends on the hybrids. Something like a ball python X green tree python hybrid could have very unpredictable needs, as these species occupy very different ecological niches. But a hybrid between a central rat snake and a corn snake, or between different species of Lampropeltis, or even a Pantherophis X Lampropeltis cross? These species occupy very similar niches and often have extremely similar care requirements, and thus their hybrids have relatively predictable care needs compared to some other hybrids. Obviously hybrids involve a lot of inherent unpredictability, but that's not the same as inherent harm. Breeding animals in general also involves this unpredictability, as no animal is ever guaranteed to be born healthy. We should do what we can to try to maximize good outcomes (probably shouldn't make ball X green tree hybrids), but drawing the line and saying "hybrids always bad" I don't think is the answer. Sorry for the late reply, I have been wanting to reply for a while but forgot about it.
Hmm. Diversity in this case was not good.
It is not unnatural, some species hybrid in the wild (morelias, bitis, etc). But that doesn't mean shit. We don't know how viable those animals are, possible malformations inside, illness, etc. We already know certain morphs lead to brain malfunctioning because it has visible effects, we don't know what else can be there. If it eats and poops people assume eveything is perfect. So from a pure enthusiast about the animals but putting their safety and well being first, it is a totally no for me and I think many other people.
Plus, sometimes with wild animals it's because of how we as humans have pushed them.. like different species of wolves breeding with coyotes.. something quite abnormal because the two animals otherwise act like they hate one another most of the time.
Don't forget about grolar bears!
As an alaskan and a biology obsessed genetics amateur... grolars and pizzlies exist because polar bears are a variant mutation that split off roughly about 8-12,000 years ago White coats were advantageous to hunting in their areas, and while yes, they are *physically* and somewhat genetically distinct there is still a very very wide amount of dna there thats still 'grizzly' coded so to speak If anything pizzlies and grolars are the best sign possible because it means the species gets to keep that genetic 'switch' for white or brown fur without leunism or albinism being involved, polar bears are honestly one of the weakest arguments for extinction/hybrid breed arguments I think its easier to use fish examples because the population %'s and the actual impact is quicker and easy to see I think hybrids really don't matter on a domestic pet scale as long as they're properly labeled and cared for However i don't think its wise to say, continuing crossing bloodlines etc even across different family groups etc, to create a new 'species' via hybridization as it introduces a lot of other risks (see flowerhorn hybrid fish)
Grolars and pizzlies. First letter is based on the sire, so a grolar has a grizzly father, and a pizzly has a polar bear father. They’re smaller than polar bears, but larger than grizzlies. Their fur is blond to light brown, and they’re reported to be aggressive. More, these hybrid offspring are fertile. An adult female hybrid was spotted with grizzly-appearing cubs.
bro imagine naming an animal that can kill you in one swipe a pizzly. how embarrassing
It sounds so cute, doesn’t it? At least a grolar sounds like a predator.
It was recently discovered that a whale species (blue, iirc), had actually been mating and hybridizing with other whale species, and I suspect this would not be happening, or at least it would be far more rare, if we hadn't driven them to near extinction, then filled the seas with a cacophony of industrial noise pollution, both of which make finding a mate far more difficult. The anthropocene sucks. Edit: Love when the gutless downvotes without comment😅
That's just Reddit and communities in general. You get the jerks, you get the ghosts and the sheep in every community 🤷♀️.. my mum always joked that jerks/assholes are strategically placed so you always run into at least one 🤣. But you get the good people too, just gotta put up with the others to find the good ones.
Time seems to be proving you right! Ty for your reply.
It is worth noting these breeder hybrids are only make because humans are forcing two species to mate. that imo is entirely unnatural. Like ligers. Thank you for mentioning invisible malforimities. It's scary to think how many snakes could be suffering because of the invisible effects of inbreeding.
The major problem in crossbreeds is that you never know what will be the result. If the animal is unlucky it will suffer. As snakes are usually solitary reptiles they will at least not suffer rejection by other snakes. Still. There is no need in doing so.
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I believe they're referring to the fact that we can't know the viability of the cross until it's been done at least once.
No. There are known hybrids, yes. But cross breeding species is always a risk. And I am also against crossbreeding cats and serval, horse and donkey and the like.
I also hate cat hybrids. And wolfdogs. No people should be opening those as domestic pets.
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Yes, exactly. I am against experimenting with animals.
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Is it interesting or just horrifying to be in that group?
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I can't say I'm not curious...
I had this same discussion a while back and the opinion I came away with is that it depends on the hybrid. Some are absolutely unethical and problematic, such as any that are sold as something they're not, or species that really shouldn't be put together for health reasons (burmballs come to mind). But there are definitely hybrids out there that do just as well if not better than their parents. Crested x gargoyle geckos come to mind as usually being incredibly docile and hardy, and less likely to drop their tails than normal cresties.
Thank you so much for the comments guys I feel this has been a very productive post 👍. I've learned quite a bit about hybrids in general from this
I think if it's a hybrid that could naturally occur in the wild (naturally as in not as a result of human activity pushing back their habitats etc.), it's not a big deal... as long as you don't try to sell it as purebred. The problem is, a lot of people who are trying to normalize hybrids produce some really fucked up crossbreeds that should never exist or they intentionally mislabel cheaper hybrids to sell them as more expensive purebreds, muddling the gene pool in the pet trade, which can result in species that are extinct in the wild also becoming extinct in the trade (like the fish example somebody else mentioned in this thread).
https://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2022/july/snake-study.html that's a college study showing that over 50% of owners can't adequately take care of their animals. Then wild animals are captured for the pet trade put stress on wild populations. But now the 50% who can actually take care of their animals breed them for color specifics and cross breed with other species. So when the time comes that we need to pull from private owners to save wild population we are screwed.
I only keep wildtypes, it’s good to know that I may be useful sometime in the future lol. I just like having that piece of nature in my house, and being friends with it. This being said I’m Australian and I think it’s a bit less of an issue here, morphs haven’t become nearly as popular yet, with normal types still being widely available. I think that’s changing though.
If you look through the pets for sale ads in my area, wild type pattern snakes are very hard to find for some species, ball pythons, burns/retics, bci's... If you want wild type appearance without half a dozen hets (pure blood)...good luck with that. May as well go hunting for Bigfoot.
A major part of the problem with hybridization is that in many ways, it's throwing the spaghetti at the wall and seeing if it sticks. Think about the super balls you mentioned. They have, essentially, short tail sized soft tissue on a ball python skeleton. They don't have a skeleton designed to support that much weight, especially not if they have the ball parent's proclivity for climbing.
People need to be careful about hybrids, the entire US captive population of flavi monitors is practically extinct because of hybridization with Argus monitors. This is a bit off topic, but also hybrid venomous snakes are an absolutely insane no-no. Trying to treat a snakebite from a hybrid viper is a fool’s guessing game of which antivenin, if any, will actually work.
I believe hybrids are completely unethical. Yes, in some cases in the wild when you have 2 different species occupying overlapping areas of land you will see hybrids occur naturally - that's fine it happens. However in captivity this isn't the case, people are purposefully breeding two snakes that would more often than not never cross paths all for the sake of aesthetics. We have no idea what traits the offspring will display from each parent or what humidity or heating requirements they need to thrive. Take super balls for example (Sumatran x ball python), they are completely unethical and unnatural because they would never ever cross paths in the wild seeing as they live on 2 different continents. They each require vastly different husbandry and have different lifespans. How are we meant to care for them? What health problems will they have down the road? What health problems could their offspring have that we don't know about yet? And how many snakes will people kill or unknowingly shorten their lifespan over not providing the correct husbandry for them? Not to mention each offspring may display different preferences for the husbandry requirements of the mother/father and so just because one way of doing things may work for one specimen, it may be detrimental to the well-being of another snake (even from the same clutch). What's the use of breeding hybrids? Especially since ball pythons are not endangered and as far as I'm aware neither are blood pythons (all because of breeding for the pet trade). Could they survive in the wild? And which continent would that be? (Btw, I am in no way condoning releasing pets back into the wild, I'm merely using this as a way to showcase how they are unnatural and how it makes it difficult to care for them due to it). As far as I'm concerned, people only breed them because they can. Not enough people are taking care of ball pythons correctly despite the plethora of information available and adding a hybrid with mystery husbandry seems to spell disaster. If people want more 'interesting' morphs there's already so many available without having to create hybrids.
I think it can be a very nuanced topic. Hybridizing two very closely related species (like any of the Antaresia genus) is fine. The snakes are so similar that the children (ba-dum-ts) will most likely not have serious issues. It becomes a bigger issue when we are talking about snakes that are more distantly related and occupy different ecological niches. Python curtus x Python regius is a hybrid that should not have been.
really not for me, different species can have completely different care and hybrids can really suffer because of that
Yeah, I'm also of the opinion that there is no reason to hybridize. Just because it can work doesn't mean it should. We still don't know enough to say that the incidental ones in the wild do as well. But my biggest fear is the attitude. Pets aren't toys. I've seen people make gabinos. That is a terrifying idea. I know where certain rattle snake species hybridize in the wild their venom can get really nasty. You should check out some of the papers Dr. Mackessy had come out with.
People don’t label shit or intentionally label it wrong, eventually everything gets muddied.
I think other people have touched on this, but it’s kind of like forcing things to “look cool” with no actual benefit for the snake. If it’s not going to help a snake live a natural life, then we shouldn’t do it. It’s the same reason so many people are against things like the spider gene in ball pythons.
They pop up in garter snakes too. In the wild, hybrids are usually sterile and novelties that can be appreciated but I'd never encourage intentional hybridization of different garter snake species. I feel it risks the diversity of thamnophis. Each subspecies is so unique and deserves to be celebrated and preserved!
You will have issues if you need to repopulate the wild. And they do use surrendered animals to repopulate the wild - for eg. macaws in Costa Rica. They used animals from shelters and let them have eggs, the captive ones are kept captive while juveniles bred from captives were released to repopulate Costa Rica. I don't see it much from the snake people (though I am not active since I don't even have captive snakes), but this hybridization is almost a taboo and bannable offense if you go to the pdf subs/communities. At least that's the impression I get from them.
Pdf? What exactly is that?
Poison dart frog.
Captive animal keeping in general is "unnatural and unnecessary". As is any breed of dog or cat. And all the reptile morphs. Hell, the entire *species* of dog is something we came up with. My $0.02 on the subject is that we're not breeding these animals and releasing them in the wild. As long as keepers actually, you know, *keep* them and the resulting animal is healthy and doesn't end up with weird issues, it doesn't hurt anything.
That is very true, but one can argue that the seemingly better life given to a captive snake justifies keeping it? I'm probably just coping by saying that lol. Also we don't particularly know that these animals are healthy and don't have issues, many reptiles won't start showing issues from improper husbandry till 10-15 years down the road.
>That is very true, but one can argue that the seemingly better life given to a captive snake justifies keeping it? My point here is that we're not introducing these animals into the wild, so it doesn't affect their survivability or impact the ecosystem. I think you're more likely to have a healthy rat/king than healthy spider ball. I do think that people play a little fast and loose with genetics without regard for the health of the animals, but that's not really a hybrid or not discussion but more about reptile breeding in general. I would love to see some scientific studies on the matter, but just based on what you see, hybrids seem to be pretty healthy and robust.
The issue is, the majority of hybrids don't end up healthy. Lots of them have different temp/humidity requirements so you can't care for them properly. They also suffer infertility and shortened lifespans
yup. and as much as i love dogs i hate their existence. they are just retarded wolves.
😭😭😭retarded wolves your not wrong
yup people may get mad but i don't care. its the truth. you remove all their instinct. Thats why i love snakes, you want them to keep their natural instinct.
I mean it kinda depends, here in Australia crossbreeding our Morelia snakes (mostly carpet pythons though) is extremely commonplace and I believe some of their territories overlap as well? I think if people wanna do it it should really only be with snakes we know are safe and healthy, properly safe and healthy not just “it’s alive”
i think its nbd if theyre species from the same range w the same requirements, as i assume thered be some naturally, like garter snake/ribbon snakes, corn/rats, gaboon/rhino vipers, just bc theyre already so similar and are already like the closest living relatives of each other, are usually in the same genus/group and the like. just one of those things where you need to do research on the person youre buying from, make sure theyre trustworthy and reputable, and go from there.
I think a lot of the time we loose sight of why we are doing this. Like people would argue that “I’ve been breeding this hybrid for years and never had any issues” and aside from the fact that that’s completely anecdotal evidence from an extremely biased source, I don’t care. I simply don’t give a shit how healthy YOUR animals seem to YOU. It’s not worth it. We need to remember why we are doing this. So we get animals that look cool. That’s it. That’s the one benefit of hybrids, they look interesting. Well let’s be real actually there is another benefit, they make more money.
My general opinion is, if there is cross species breeding that occurs naturally in the world it is fine. But it is then the sellers responsibility to then disclose that information when it comes to the sale of that animal. For example I am against the "Angry Ball" ie angolan python x ball python because their ranges do not cross. But something like a Mexican black kingsnake and a desert species cross breeding project I don't mind, because they frequently interbreed in the wild.
I have mixed feelings as well. It’s important to keep the genetics clean so you can preserve species in the wild. However, part of me doesn’t see the harm in doing both. Experimenting on the side, within reason, is also how we got dogs out of wolves. Obviously there can be many issues with inbreeding and creating unhealthy cross species. But again, as long as it is done with the best intention and healthy animals in the end game, then I don’t see the harm…
What is “natural” about a snake in a box/tray/tank?
I tend to be of the same mind, although it doesn't bother me too much with hybridization on a species level as long as the snakes are in the same Genus. For instance Ball Pythons and Sumatran Short Tail Pythons are both in the Python genus. Kingsnakes and Corn snakes however, are two separate Genera, so I tend to not favor their hybridization. I guess ultimately it's personal preference and difference of opinion. Everyone's allowed to have their own opinions after all :)
the plural of “genus” is “genera,” just FYI
But kings and corns atleast have similar husbandry and behavior. Ball pythons and short tail pythons have completely different husbandry and feeding requirements and different behaviors. Shit, they aren't even from the same continent.
Thanks for the input, I didn't really think about the genus differences
Many hybrids occur naturally in the wild.
"Naturally" can be argued, are grolar bears naturally occurring if we humans practically forced polar bears away from their natural habitat and into grizzly territory? Same goes for wolf/coyote hybrids.
There are many animals that share territory without Human cause.
I agree, and they are definitely naturally occurring. Mixing genes from 2 snakes that live in 2 separate continents, is definitely unnatural.
That I agree with. Snakes within the same genus that share the same territory and therefore have the same living conditions generally do well but distantly related species are more difficult to care for and shouldn’t be hybridized.
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Those are all fair points, but I think one "argument" that could be made is that reptiles in general have very specific husbandry requirements and combining two snakes with fairly drastic husbandry differences could end up in their detriment, because there's no real way to distinguish if the snake is more ball python, or more short-tail, for example. I also wasn't aware that the hybrids are sterile, so that's a plus for me!
Not all hybrids are sterile. Your example of the polar bear + brown bear hybrid, for example is not sterile. Many colubrids can hybridized and produce offspring for generations (corn snakes, milk snakes, king snakes...) i do not know if your initial example of short tailed pythons and ball pythons are sterile or not It's a miscinception that all hybridized animals are sterile simply because many of them are. Another strong example is the American Bison and domesticated cattle. This called beefalo. However even among the wild herds only 4 herds of bison are not mixed to some degree with domestic cattle. This has helped the bison from completely dying out. And if all hybrids were sterile.. well this wouldn't have made any headway into increasing bison numbers.
Not all hybrids are sterile, this includes within reptile breeding. [Multiple generations](https://thesnakeboss.wordpress.com/2014/11/29/hybrids-arent-firing-blanks-they-are-fully-loaded/#:~:text=There%20is%20a%20misconception%20going,that%20this%20is%20not%20true.) Are being bred and being bred back to original species as well to create different lineages of a hybrid species.
it happens in the wild. ill take that over what humans did to wolves and ruined them with inbreeding. making them retarded.