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Full quote:
‘It was his agent who made the deal with them, they brought a very important bid for him, about 8 Million Euros and we said no. Ethical reasons: we didn’t want make any deal with the Russians, we had our conscience prevail and not make any deal with such a country, even if it means losing the player for free’
Are you saying the US is akin to Russia. Are you British? Matter of fact do you live in any fucking country because if you do your statement is unbelievably hypocritical.
See what happens when you commit vast crimes and don't hold anybody responsible is that you can, given time, act like they never happened and that you're superior to everyone else.
I'd love to see you use the "do you live in any country" line when it's russia or china that's on the block. In fact have you used it in this thread about russia?
Everything you just said about the US is true about Russia too... smh. Do you know about anything that has happened before the year 2000? Did you people even graduate high-school? Or whatever you call it in your (very respectable) country?
Thanks, I'm good. You might want to read up on American history though. The Atlantic did a 90 page article on the American destabilization of Chile, it's a good place to start.
You are aware that they haven't invaded Yemen, didn't start the civil war and that Yemen wasn't democratically elected right?
I'm not saying what they're doing in Yemen is good, just what Russia is doing is way worse.
Because Russia invaded a European country. No one gives a shit when a middle eastern country gets invaded. Hell Russia has been committing war crimes in Syria since 2015 and people had no problem going there for the World Cup.
Europeans care more about a war in Europe than about a war in the Middle East? Wow. Next you are going to tell me that Middle Easterners care more about what's happening in Syria than about what's happening in Ukraine.
Europeans when Russia and SA commit war crimes in other ME countries: 🤷♂️
Europeans when the inevitable surge in refugees, weaponized by Russia, ends up on their borders: *shocked pikachu face*
The whole of the blame of the Ukraine war rests upon Russia. Saudi Arabia is one of many players who are at fault for prolonging the Yemen war, which originally started as a means to overthrow a dictator figure.
> just what Russia is doing is way worse
I'm not in the game of weighing which atrocities are worse than any others, Russia's doing some horrible shit in Ukraine and so is Saudi by supporting the proxy war with Iran in Yemen. There's hundreds of thousands starving in Yemen directly due to Saudi actions so in my book they're just as bad as the Russians fucking with grain exports to Africa. They're both bad, two things can be true at the same time.
Why does is matter if the country is 《democratic》?
Also saudis do and did plenty of evil. But in regards to the human costs i dont think anyone beats russians.
Because the western superiorists here use it to play down their crimes and play up others. They don't realise that this only shows sociopathy, that they lack any true feelings for fellow human who are suffering.
Why would one be better than the other? This only makes sense if you view a country and its people as an abstraction rather than real human beings who shouldn't die for the actions of a dictator that they have no influence over.
Really, do you "reveal the hypocrisy" the same way when china or russia re criticized? Or is it only when the US is criticized. Now *that* is hypocrisy. And very typical.
Now if i'm wrong, just show me instances when you have done that when people criticize russia or china for example. shouldn't be hard giving how much the majority of americans on reddit shit on them constantly.
There are countless air strikes like the Mosul air strike that also killed civilians in the hundreds in Iraq. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound when you compare war crimes like it's some dick measuring contest? People died and got tortured brother
There’s a long list of war crimes committed by the US in Iraq (that we know about..) including raping children, torturing and humiliating people and killing random civilians. You can find all of this on Wikipedia if you’re interested.
The unofficial death toll by multiple human rights organizations puts the Iraq war death totals at around 1m. Thanks to wiki leaks we also know that America hid that they (and Blackwater) routinely shot at and air striked random civilians. Julian Assange, who ran Wikileaks, has been fighting for his freedom for over a decade while the Blackwater people got pardons from the US government.
The fact that you’re ignorant enough to compare the Russian war to the Iraq war is insane. NATO is arming Ukraine against a single country in Russia while the US put together an alliance bigger than NATO to invade Iraq. The US alone is magnitudes stronger than Russia in terms of military.
The US committed countless human rights violations. Search up Abu Ghraib or the munitions used that were dipped with depleted uranium. You can trace birth defects today back to the war. And unlike Russia, the US have a law where they will invade The Hague if they ever bring an American to answer for international crimes, so it’s not like there’s a way to bring Americans to justice.
And just a reminder — the US fought a war thousands of KMs away from their country on all based on a lie they fabricated.
I know Reddit is moronic when it comes to politics, but this takes the cake. It’s the “confidently ignorant, know-it-all” attitude that gets me.
Their kill-count of civilians in 500 days of the Ukrainian war is probably higher than the American kill-count in two decades in Iraq. In the first 2 years, the coalition killed like 2000 civilians - Russia probably killed multiple times that number just in Mariupol.
Not every civilian killed in Iraq was killed by the coalition. A lot of deaths were caused by regular crime, sectarian conflicts, terrorism, etc. Sure, you could argue that those deaths wouldn't happen without the American invasion, but I wouldn't consider a Sunni killing a Shia because he is a Shia an "American atrocity", even if the invasion was ridiculously stupid and irresponsible. But yes, you are correct that I probably underestimated civilian deaths in the first two years and the number is probably closer to 10.000:
> Iraq Body Count project data shows that the type of attack that resulted in the most civilian deaths was execution after abduction or capture. These accounted for 33% of civilian deaths and were overwhelmingly carried out by unknown actors including insurgents, sectarian militias and criminals. 29% of these deaths involved torture. The following most common causes of death were small arms gunfire at 20%, suicide bombs at 14%, vehicle bombs at 9%, roadside bombs at 5%, and air attacks at 5%.[88]
> The IBC project, reported that by the end of the major combat phase of the invasion period up to April 30, 2003, 7,419 civilians had been killed, primarily by U.S. air-and-ground forces.[8][86]
> The IBC project released a report detailing the deaths it recorded between March 2003 and March 2005[86] in which it recorded 24,865 civilian deaths. The report says the U.S. and its allies were responsible for the largest share (37%) with 9,270 deaths. The remaining deaths were attributed to anti-occupation forces (9%), crime (36%) and unknown agents (11%). It also lists the primary sources used by the media – mortuaries, medics, Iraqi officials, eyewitnesses, police, relatives, U.S.-coalition, journalists, non-governmental organizations (NGOs), friends/associates and other.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Iraqi_civilian_casualties
Now talk about the amount of iraqi people that died in the years following the war because the US nuked all the healthcare infrastructure in the country
I also would like to know why you decided to cite IBC instead of the peer-reviewed Lancet survey which attributes 186,318 civilian deaths to the Coalition.
Great point, nice to see that civilized nations post reasonable civilian kill counts in the first two years when they baselessly invade foreign countries:)
Jesus fucking Christ, this thread is a party of dishonestly pretending that people said things that they didn't, lmao. The response is to the claim that "Russia has to come a long way to even come close to the atrocities America committed in Iraq", a claim that is completely stupid. Russia has no moral ground to stand on, and its tactics to target civilians to cause terror (as they did in Grozny, Aleppo, Mariupol, Kyiv, Kharkiv, and Odesa) are much worse than anything the US did in the XXI century. That's not to say that the US didn't "baselessly invade foreign countries".
Deaths and people displaced in the millions for no credible reason, was that not enough or does it not matter because there is less blondes in Iraq than Ukraine?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United\_States\_involvement\_in\_regime\_change](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change)
Here why don't you do the comparison yourself?
You get down voted, but, you're not entirely wrong.
the usa is an evil that is ignored because of their sheer force. i wish more people (Americans) understood America oftentimes is the bad guy.
As bad as they are, their kill count is lower than Russia's.
Edit to take you clowns to town, let's go. I'll focus just on people directly killed by Russia, and not on people that died in conflicts in that Russia was involved, sent weapons or prolonged in general:
[Chechen wars:](https://web.archive.org/web/20070821154629/http://www.hrvc.net/htmls/references.htm)
> For the period from 1994 to 2003, estimates ranged from 50,000 to 250,000 civilians and 10,000 to 50,000 Russian servicemen killed. Given that almost certainly both sides have tended to exaggerate enemy military casualties while minimizing their own and grossly underestimating
its responsibility for civilian losses, the Russian-Chechen Friendship Society set the conservative estimate of death toll in this time period at about 150,000 - 200,000 civilians, 20,000 to 40,000 Russian soldiers, and possibly the same number of Chechen rebels.[29]
So, 170.000 Chechen civilians and soldiers were killed, on the lower bound of the estimate.
[Syria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_intervention_in_the_Syrian_civil_war#Civilian_casualties_and_war_crimes)
> Between September 2015 and March 2019, Russian aerial campaigns alone resulted in an estimated 18,150 deaths; including 8000 civilians, consisting of thousands of women and children. Approximately 5,000 of the combatants killed in bombings were rebel fighters and another 5,000 were members of the IS organization. Around 25,000 children were killed and an estimated 1,197 schools have been destroyed by the combined attacks of Ba'athist and Russian military forces, between March 2011 and November 2021.[490][491][492]
20.000 dead just from the aerial campaign. That adds up to a good 190.000 thousand dead from direct Russian action.
[Donbas, at the end of 2021](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_#Casualties)
> 4,400 were Ukrainian forces, and 3,404 were civilians
That's UN estimates, that are usually conservative. close to more 8 thousand dead, so 198.000.
[Ethnically cleansing of Abkhazia:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Abkhazia)
> The exact number of those killed during the ethnic cleansing is disputed. According to Georgian data, 5,000 civilians were killed and 400 were missing.[36] Roughly 200,000 to 250,000 ethnic Georgians were expelled from their homes.[21] The campaign of ethnic cleansing also affected Russians, Armenians, Greeks, some Abkhaz, and other minor ethnic groups living in Abkhazia. More than 20,000 houses owned by ethnic Georgians were destroyed. Hundreds of schools, kindergartens, churches, hospitals, and historical monuments were pillaged and destroyed.[20][37]
> In 2009, Human Rights Watch reported that armed gangs and Ossetian militia engaged in looting, arson attacks, rape and abductions in Georgian areas under Russian control, forcing the civilian population to flee.[76][77]
So at least 5000 thousand were directly killed, to not talk about the displacement and repression. 253.000 directly killed by Russian action, with these 5000 thousand more.
(I'll ignore Dagestan and Wagner presence in Africa because I'm to lazy to add those numbers and look for exact sources.)
[Ukrainian invasion of 2022:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#Total_casualties)
> US estimate of 42.000 civilians killed and 20.000 Ukrainian soldiers killed
**So, with just these events I listed considered, Russia reaches a death toll of over 300.000 thousand people killed by direct Russian military action - not accounting for Russian troops or civilians killed by other parties, or the number would probably double or triple.** Russia literally has what's probably the biggest kill count of any country on Earth since the day Russia was formed, and you can shit on the mistakes of others without questioning that. I could have added the numbers of soldiers from the LPR and DPR to the number too, given how many were forced to fight. Civilians' numbers in Ukraine or Chechnya or Georgia or Dagestan may be much higher, given how hard it is to access what happened in occupied cities like Mariupol and mountain villages in the last 3.
While they supported one side in the civil war, you can't credit every single death that happened from every single cause to them. Supporting a side in a civil war that they didn't start is completely different from starting an imperialist war of conquest. And for Russia, you'd have to add up Ukraine, Syria, Chechnya, Lybia, Georgia...
The side they're supporting is Al Queda lol. The Saudis are directly responsible for the The famine. I'm aware of Russian crimes but Saudi ARE just as worse.
Yemen is roughly two thirds Sunni and one third Shia. The civil war began when Iran funded and armed the Houthis to overthrow the elected government. So no, the side Saudi Arabia supports is not al Qaeda, they want to reinstate the deposed government.
That doesn't excuse the atrocities Saudi Arabia has committed in Yemen, but you should at least get your facts straight.
The “elected” Yemeni government LOL.
In an election where he was the single candidate - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Yemeni_presidential_election
> seems like
It seems like people have an incredibly hard time reading what is actually written instead of making up worse versions of the arguments in order to feel "more right"
You'd have to add up Ukraine, Syria, Chechnya, Lybia, Georgia... And while they supported one side in the civil war, you can't credit every single death that happened from every single cause to them. Supporting a side in a civil war that they didn't start is completely different from starting an imperialist war of conquest. It's like crediting every single death in Syria to Russia.
The ban on women driving was lifted in 2018 and none were ever hanged for trying to drive. The fact that 16 morons upvoted this says everything about the type of people who have hot takes to dish out on the internet
Knowing Carnevali I don't buy this one bit tbqh, if he could get 20m and an U19 talent for Rogerio he'd ship him to Wagner FC wrapped in a huge cardboard Z.
Odds are the offer was bad or he couldn't actually sell due to sanctions, probably a bit of both.
Tf are you mentioning just Chelsea, when Liverpool, Inter, Milan, Juventus, Newcastle, Man United, Wolves and others have all also done deals with Saudi clubs?
He's valued at 5.5M on transfermarkt and they bought him from Juve for 7M, contract ending in 2024. Played 36 games last season (almost 3000 minutes) so an important player for them.
I'd say Carnevali wants more money for losing such an important player, knows he can get more money, and still has time to offer him a new contract, but I'm probably also biased because I don't like this greedy dickhead
So from what I gathered, the player agreed terms and wanted to go (136 apps - 1 year left on contract) and they turned down 8 million from Moscow knowing he could join them for free next season. I didn't think CEOs were big on ethics to be honest. Fair play if that's what's truly going on here.
I wish same was done when USA bombs civilians in middle east and Saudi Arabia in Jordan.
Guess muslim lives are not worth making a fuss about to all these protectors of ethics and justice.
On paper.
In real life, you'd need an economic miracle (or some creative manipulation of statistics) to get a somewhat lasting 89% approval rate.
It's easy to "approve" when you have already seen what happens to those who dare disapprove.
I mean, I guess, but by that logic everyone in a country whose government is undertaking any sort of unjust action bears culpability unless they choose to commit the crime of tax evasion.
I’d more say they have something to do with the war due to their owners being inextricably linked to the Russian oligarchic apparatus. Similar to Zenit in that regard.
> by that logic everyone in a country whose government is undertaking any sort of unjust action bears culpability
I'm expected to take blame for the actions of the British government during colonial times. German taxpayers paid reparations well into the 21st century. Both of these are historical wrongs that modern people had no hand in. It follows that it's reasonable to sanction citizens who are almost entirely in support of and benefactors from their government's ongoing genocide.
reparation and taxes is another thing but I don't understand blaming the citizens. You do not have substantial power to prevent colonization. This kind of black-and-white thinking will cause us to never move on-- fuel eternal hate and division
I speak this as someone whose living grandparents and some aunts/uncles remember colonial times. They never harbor resentment over colonialist civilians
Spartak is owned by oligarchs so that's a different story though
This sub acts so weird whenever this topic gets brought up. Of course you're gonna care more about a country that started a war 1,626 kilometers away from your doorstep, just like you're gonna care more if the guy next door gets murdered even if there's a mass killing in another country.
Refusing to do business with Russian clubs, the majority of whom have owners directly supporting or profiting from the invasion, is far different than demonizing the Russian people.
Spartak is owned by Lukoil by the way.
There’s plenty of evidence out there of regular Russians being fully onboard with the invasion. These are the people who voted for Putin after he bombed the shit out of Chechnya.
He said this knowing full well that he won't be caught with his pants down when the Saudis make an offer he can't resist... because chances are the Saudis are not going to make him any offers.
**This is a quotes thread. Remember that there's only one quotes post allowed per interview/press conference, so new quotes with the same origin will be removed. Feel free to comment other quotes/the whole interview as a reply to this comment so users can see them too!** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Full quote: ‘It was his agent who made the deal with them, they brought a very important bid for him, about 8 Million Euros and we said no. Ethical reasons: we didn’t want make any deal with the Russians, we had our conscience prevail and not make any deal with such a country, even if it means losing the player for free’
Wonder if they'd sell him to the MLS.
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15 years ago it probably would've been. Funny how fast the narrative flips.
Are you saying the US is akin to Russia. Are you British? Matter of fact do you live in any fucking country because if you do your statement is unbelievably hypocritical.
These people think they're very very intelligent and that they're free thinkers. It's appalling to think I have to drive on the same roads at them.
See what happens when you commit vast crimes and don't hold anybody responsible is that you can, given time, act like they never happened and that you're superior to everyone else. I'd love to see you use the "do you live in any country" line when it's russia or china that's on the block. In fact have you used it in this thread about russia?
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Everything you just said about the US is true about Russia too... smh. Do you know about anything that has happened before the year 2000? Did you people even graduate high-school? Or whatever you call it in your (very respectable) country?
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Brother read up on russian and soviet history please.
Thanks, I'm good. You might want to read up on American history though. The Atlantic did a 90 page article on the American destabilization of Chile, it's a good place to start.
More like, we are "sanctioned against doing business with Russians"
Ye especially as the company which funds Sassuolo is still operating in Russia.
Watch him accept when the Saudis knock on his door
Well, there's a bit of a difference, yeah.
Yeah the Saudis have more money
And aren't invading a democratic country and starting a war.
lol
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I love how he added the word democratic to make it more emo
The same can be said for Israel but people don't care about that either.
They're not white and european so obviously it's fine!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_civil_war_(2014%E2%80%93present)
You are aware that they haven't invaded Yemen, didn't start the civil war and that Yemen wasn't democratically elected right? I'm not saying what they're doing in Yemen is good, just what Russia is doing is way worse.
why is it worse?
Because Russia invaded a European country. No one gives a shit when a middle eastern country gets invaded. Hell Russia has been committing war crimes in Syria since 2015 and people had no problem going there for the World Cup.
Europeans care more about a war in Europe than about a war in the Middle East? Wow. Next you are going to tell me that Middle Easterners care more about what's happening in Syria than about what's happening in Ukraine.
Europeans when Russia and SA commit war crimes in other ME countries: 🤷♂️ Europeans when the inevitable surge in refugees, weaponized by Russia, ends up on their borders: *shocked pikachu face*
The whole of the blame of the Ukraine war rests upon Russia. Saudi Arabia is one of many players who are at fault for prolonging the Yemen war, which originally started as a means to overthrow a dictator figure.
so the ability to isolate "blame," such that you can even assign it, is more relevant than human lives lost?
The whole conversation is about whether Saudi Arabia should be as boycotted as Russia.
> just what Russia is doing is way worse I'm not in the game of weighing which atrocities are worse than any others, Russia's doing some horrible shit in Ukraine and so is Saudi by supporting the proxy war with Iran in Yemen. There's hundreds of thousands starving in Yemen directly due to Saudi actions so in my book they're just as bad as the Russians fucking with grain exports to Africa. They're both bad, two things can be true at the same time.
Syria and Yemen are not “Democratic” and so no sovereignty got it lol
Why does is matter if the country is 《democratic》? Also saudis do and did plenty of evil. But in regards to the human costs i dont think anyone beats russians.
Because the western superiorists here use it to play down their crimes and play up others. They don't realise that this only shows sociopathy, that they lack any true feelings for fellow human who are suffering.
That's crazy hey how many political parties did zelensky ban
/Jamal Khashoggi’s family enters the room/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi
Does invading a country and killing people become more moral when the country is less democratic or what
To an extent, yes.
I can't imagine you having any logical reasoning behind what you're saying but feel free to surprise me
Would you consider South Korea invading North Korea to get rid of Kim Jong-Un as bad as the US invading Mexico to expand their borders?
Why would one be better than the other? This only makes sense if you view a country and its people as an abstraction rather than real human beings who shouldn't die for the actions of a dictator that they have no influence over.
Because North Koreans live in awful conditions and getting rid of their dictator might be a great benefit to them and their future generations?
Ukraine a democratic country 😭
Russian troll?
Ummmm Yeah they are
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_civil_war_(2014%E2%80%93present)
That page literally proves why they are just as bad as Russia…
They didn't invade a democratic country and they didn't start the war. Which is what you denied.
Think the line drawn by international politics are killing your own people vs killing other people.
Russians are killing other people though right? He's Italian isn't he?
It is basically their own people though, they're close enough.
What?
It's like Germany and Austria or Norway and Sweden. They're not the same but it's hardly a clash of cultures.
Or Americans
hey now. don't you know all of america's wars are justified?
Such a typical redditor comment
just revealing hypocrisy bro
Comparing America to Saudi or Russia is just showing you Have a bias against America.
America can not be criticized guys come on we are the world police.
"Saudi" shoot and bomb with American artillery. They don't produce their own.
Are you under the impression that the German arms industry doesn't also supply conflict and war around the planet?
Ah the "everyone does it defense". Love to see you apply that "logic" to russia/china.
just revealing hypocrisy bro
Really, do you "reveal the hypocrisy" the same way when china or russia re criticized? Or is it only when the US is criticized. Now *that* is hypocrisy. And very typical. Now if i'm wrong, just show me instances when you have done that when people criticize russia or china for example. shouldn't be hard giving how much the majority of americans on reddit shit on them constantly.
So does germany lmfao
Lol. Russia has to come a long way to even come close to the atrocities America committed in Iraq.
What was the Bucha Massacre equivalent in Iraq?
Have you heard of Abu Ghraib? Not trying to be confrontational but genuinely asking
Yes. How is that equal to an organized massacre of at least 419 civilians in Bucha?
There are countless air strikes like the Mosul air strike that also killed civilians in the hundreds in Iraq. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound when you compare war crimes like it's some dick measuring contest? People died and got tortured brother
There’s a long list of war crimes committed by the US in Iraq (that we know about..) including raping children, torturing and humiliating people and killing random civilians. You can find all of this on Wikipedia if you’re interested.
The unofficial death toll by multiple human rights organizations puts the Iraq war death totals at around 1m. Thanks to wiki leaks we also know that America hid that they (and Blackwater) routinely shot at and air striked random civilians. Julian Assange, who ran Wikileaks, has been fighting for his freedom for over a decade while the Blackwater people got pardons from the US government. The fact that you’re ignorant enough to compare the Russian war to the Iraq war is insane. NATO is arming Ukraine against a single country in Russia while the US put together an alliance bigger than NATO to invade Iraq. The US alone is magnitudes stronger than Russia in terms of military. The US committed countless human rights violations. Search up Abu Ghraib or the munitions used that were dipped with depleted uranium. You can trace birth defects today back to the war. And unlike Russia, the US have a law where they will invade The Hague if they ever bring an American to answer for international crimes, so it’s not like there’s a way to bring Americans to justice. And just a reminder — the US fought a war thousands of KMs away from their country on all based on a lie they fabricated. I know Reddit is moronic when it comes to politics, but this takes the cake. It’s the “confidently ignorant, know-it-all” attitude that gets me.
Why would it not be equal, both are war crimes
Their kill-count of civilians in 500 days of the Ukrainian war is probably higher than the American kill-count in two decades in Iraq. In the first 2 years, the coalition killed like 2000 civilians - Russia probably killed multiple times that number just in Mariupol.
The low estimations put civilian deaths in Iraq somewhere around 300,000 so I'm going to say you're probably wrong.
Not every civilian killed in Iraq was killed by the coalition. A lot of deaths were caused by regular crime, sectarian conflicts, terrorism, etc. Sure, you could argue that those deaths wouldn't happen without the American invasion, but I wouldn't consider a Sunni killing a Shia because he is a Shia an "American atrocity", even if the invasion was ridiculously stupid and irresponsible. But yes, you are correct that I probably underestimated civilian deaths in the first two years and the number is probably closer to 10.000: > Iraq Body Count project data shows that the type of attack that resulted in the most civilian deaths was execution after abduction or capture. These accounted for 33% of civilian deaths and were overwhelmingly carried out by unknown actors including insurgents, sectarian militias and criminals. 29% of these deaths involved torture. The following most common causes of death were small arms gunfire at 20%, suicide bombs at 14%, vehicle bombs at 9%, roadside bombs at 5%, and air attacks at 5%.[88] > The IBC project, reported that by the end of the major combat phase of the invasion period up to April 30, 2003, 7,419 civilians had been killed, primarily by U.S. air-and-ground forces.[8][86] > The IBC project released a report detailing the deaths it recorded between March 2003 and March 2005[86] in which it recorded 24,865 civilian deaths. The report says the U.S. and its allies were responsible for the largest share (37%) with 9,270 deaths. The remaining deaths were attributed to anti-occupation forces (9%), crime (36%) and unknown agents (11%). It also lists the primary sources used by the media – mortuaries, medics, Iraqi officials, eyewitnesses, police, relatives, U.S.-coalition, journalists, non-governmental organizations (NGOs), friends/associates and other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Iraqi_civilian_casualties
Now talk about the amount of iraqi people that died in the years following the war because the US nuked all the healthcare infrastructure in the country I also would like to know why you decided to cite IBC instead of the peer-reviewed Lancet survey which attributes 186,318 civilian deaths to the Coalition.
Great point, nice to see that civilized nations post reasonable civilian kill counts in the first two years when they baselessly invade foreign countries:)
Jesus fucking Christ, this thread is a party of dishonestly pretending that people said things that they didn't, lmao. The response is to the claim that "Russia has to come a long way to even come close to the atrocities America committed in Iraq", a claim that is completely stupid. Russia has no moral ground to stand on, and its tactics to target civilians to cause terror (as they did in Grozny, Aleppo, Mariupol, Kyiv, Kharkiv, and Odesa) are much worse than anything the US did in the XXI century. That's not to say that the US didn't "baselessly invade foreign countries".
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Deaths and people displaced in the millions for no credible reason, was that not enough or does it not matter because there is less blondes in Iraq than Ukraine?
America has done a lot worse than either of these countries in the last 50 years
Uh, Iraq? Vietnam? Any of the other dozens of illegal invasions or coups they're responsible for?
I wouldn't compare them because America kills so many more people
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United\_States\_involvement\_in\_regime\_change](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change) Here why don't you do the comparison yourself?
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Shows you need to inform urself honey
Thanks for enlightening me bro 🤙
U welcome
Especially coming from a german who depends almost soley on the americans for his countries defence lmfao
Defence from who lol
You get down voted, but, you're not entirely wrong. the usa is an evil that is ignored because of their sheer force. i wish more people (Americans) understood America oftentimes is the bad guy.
Yeah I expected it but I just wantend to invoke discussion/ diffrent perspective
As bad as they are, their kill count is lower than Russia's. Edit to take you clowns to town, let's go. I'll focus just on people directly killed by Russia, and not on people that died in conflicts in that Russia was involved, sent weapons or prolonged in general: [Chechen wars:](https://web.archive.org/web/20070821154629/http://www.hrvc.net/htmls/references.htm) > For the period from 1994 to 2003, estimates ranged from 50,000 to 250,000 civilians and 10,000 to 50,000 Russian servicemen killed. Given that almost certainly both sides have tended to exaggerate enemy military casualties while minimizing their own and grossly underestimating its responsibility for civilian losses, the Russian-Chechen Friendship Society set the conservative estimate of death toll in this time period at about 150,000 - 200,000 civilians, 20,000 to 40,000 Russian soldiers, and possibly the same number of Chechen rebels.[29] So, 170.000 Chechen civilians and soldiers were killed, on the lower bound of the estimate. [Syria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_intervention_in_the_Syrian_civil_war#Civilian_casualties_and_war_crimes) > Between September 2015 and March 2019, Russian aerial campaigns alone resulted in an estimated 18,150 deaths; including 8000 civilians, consisting of thousands of women and children. Approximately 5,000 of the combatants killed in bombings were rebel fighters and another 5,000 were members of the IS organization. Around 25,000 children were killed and an estimated 1,197 schools have been destroyed by the combined attacks of Ba'athist and Russian military forces, between March 2011 and November 2021.[490][491][492] 20.000 dead just from the aerial campaign. That adds up to a good 190.000 thousand dead from direct Russian action. [Donbas, at the end of 2021](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_#Casualties) > 4,400 were Ukrainian forces, and 3,404 were civilians That's UN estimates, that are usually conservative. close to more 8 thousand dead, so 198.000. [Ethnically cleansing of Abkhazia:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Abkhazia) > The exact number of those killed during the ethnic cleansing is disputed. According to Georgian data, 5,000 civilians were killed and 400 were missing.[36] Roughly 200,000 to 250,000 ethnic Georgians were expelled from their homes.[21] The campaign of ethnic cleansing also affected Russians, Armenians, Greeks, some Abkhaz, and other minor ethnic groups living in Abkhazia. More than 20,000 houses owned by ethnic Georgians were destroyed. Hundreds of schools, kindergartens, churches, hospitals, and historical monuments were pillaged and destroyed.[20][37] > In 2009, Human Rights Watch reported that armed gangs and Ossetian militia engaged in looting, arson attacks, rape and abductions in Georgian areas under Russian control, forcing the civilian population to flee.[76][77] So at least 5000 thousand were directly killed, to not talk about the displacement and repression. 253.000 directly killed by Russian action, with these 5000 thousand more. (I'll ignore Dagestan and Wagner presence in Africa because I'm to lazy to add those numbers and look for exact sources.) [Ukrainian invasion of 2022:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#Total_casualties) > US estimate of 42.000 civilians killed and 20.000 Ukrainian soldiers killed **So, with just these events I listed considered, Russia reaches a death toll of over 300.000 thousand people killed by direct Russian military action - not accounting for Russian troops or civilians killed by other parties, or the number would probably double or triple.** Russia literally has what's probably the biggest kill count of any country on Earth since the day Russia was formed, and you can shit on the mistakes of others without questioning that. I could have added the numbers of soldiers from the LPR and DPR to the number too, given how many were forced to fight. Civilians' numbers in Ukraine or Chechnya or Georgia or Dagestan may be much higher, given how hard it is to access what happened in occupied cities like Mariupol and mountain villages in the last 3.
Yemen
While they supported one side in the civil war, you can't credit every single death that happened from every single cause to them. Supporting a side in a civil war that they didn't start is completely different from starting an imperialist war of conquest. And for Russia, you'd have to add up Ukraine, Syria, Chechnya, Lybia, Georgia...
The side they're supporting is Al Queda lol. The Saudis are directly responsible for the The famine. I'm aware of Russian crimes but Saudi ARE just as worse.
Yemen is roughly two thirds Sunni and one third Shia. The civil war began when Iran funded and armed the Houthis to overthrow the elected government. So no, the side Saudi Arabia supports is not al Qaeda, they want to reinstate the deposed government. That doesn't excuse the atrocities Saudi Arabia has committed in Yemen, but you should at least get your facts straight.
The “elected” Yemeni government LOL. In an election where he was the single candidate - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Yemeni_presidential_election
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> seems like It seems like people have an incredibly hard time reading what is actually written instead of making up worse versions of the arguments in order to feel "more right"
If it seems that way to you, then that says something about your deficiencies in reading comprehension.
Ah yeah my bad on that one
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They're one of the factions in the war. I already said I was wrong linking Saudi to Al Queda.
Not sure the Russians have managed the 400k in Ukraine that the Saudis have managed in Yemen since 2014. They'll probably catch up soon though.
You'd have to add up Ukraine, Syria, Chechnya, Lybia, Georgia... And while they supported one side in the civil war, you can't credit every single death that happened from every single cause to them. Supporting a side in a civil war that they didn't start is completely different from starting an imperialist war of conquest. It's like crediting every single death in Syria to Russia.
Yes it’s a wonderful country. Where they hang women for trying to drive.
The ban on women driving was lifted in 2018 and none were ever hanged for trying to drive. The fact that 16 morons upvoted this says everything about the type of people who have hot takes to dish out on the internet
> Yes it’s a wonderful country "As bad as they are"... why make up stuff that wasn't even marginally implied in what I wrote?
It isnt
Understandable. Italian football is synonymous with ethics.
Knowing Carnevali I don't buy this one bit tbqh, if he could get 20m and an U19 talent for Rogerio he'd ship him to Wagner FC wrapped in a huge cardboard Z. Odds are the offer was bad or he couldn't actually sell due to sanctions, probably a bit of both.
Lol if you still believe this stuff after all the exodus to Saudi Arabia this summer , I have a bridge to sell you. Ethics don't exist in football .
Overall they don’t but there’s no reason one club or one player can’t have good ethics. All it takes is a couple clubs having ethics to cause changes.
They can still exist at individual clubs tho
Tf does Chelsea selling to Saudi Arabia have to do with the Sassuolo CEO
Tf are you mentioning just Chelsea, when Liverpool, Inter, Milan, Juventus, Newcastle, Man United, Wolves and others have all also done deals with Saudi clubs?
Wait who tf did we ship off to SA?
Based
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He's valued at 5.5M on transfermarkt and they bought him from Juve for 7M, contract ending in 2024. Played 36 games last season (almost 3000 minutes) so an important player for them. I'd say Carnevali wants more money for losing such an important player, knows he can get more money, and still has time to offer him a new contract, but I'm probably also biased because I don't like this greedy dickhead
He’s on last year of his deal and sounds like he’s not signing a new one, so yea that’s a decent offer
Dumbest thing I've ever heard
That will show Putin!
So from what I gathered, the player agreed terms and wanted to go (136 apps - 1 year left on contract) and they turned down 8 million from Moscow knowing he could join them for free next season. I didn't think CEOs were big on ethics to be honest. Fair play if that's what's truly going on here.
Spartak or any other Russian club have little to nothing to do with the current war
Spartak owners and Lukoil do
Spartak is owned by Lukoil.
Clubs themselves no but what about the owners
Juve fan brings ethics to football talk
They're owned by lukoil, even if you ignore that they are scumbags for housing quincy promes
It’s more as well about not normalising relations with Russia and putting pressure on from all sides
I wish same was done when USA bombs civilians in middle east and Saudi Arabia in Jordan. Guess muslim lives are not worth making a fuss about to all these protectors of ethics and justice.
Putin's approval rating is 89%
On paper. In real life, you'd need an economic miracle (or some creative manipulation of statistics) to get a somewhat lasting 89% approval rate. It's easy to "approve" when you have already seen what happens to those who dare disapprove.
Yeah they get a holiday in Belarus
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I mean, I guess, but by that logic everyone in a country whose government is undertaking any sort of unjust action bears culpability unless they choose to commit the crime of tax evasion. I’d more say they have something to do with the war due to their owners being inextricably linked to the Russian oligarchic apparatus. Similar to Zenit in that regard.
> by that logic everyone in a country whose government is undertaking any sort of unjust action bears culpability I'm expected to take blame for the actions of the British government during colonial times. German taxpayers paid reparations well into the 21st century. Both of these are historical wrongs that modern people had no hand in. It follows that it's reasonable to sanction citizens who are almost entirely in support of and benefactors from their government's ongoing genocide.
reparation and taxes is another thing but I don't understand blaming the citizens. You do not have substantial power to prevent colonization. This kind of black-and-white thinking will cause us to never move on-- fuel eternal hate and division I speak this as someone whose living grandparents and some aunts/uncles remember colonial times. They never harbor resentment over colonialist civilians Spartak is owned by oligarchs so that's a different story though
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Bet you thought that sounded deep AF
what? like genuinely what are you trying to say here
nah it isn't
I haven't heard you say anything, must be a Russian agent.
We don’t deal with terrorist
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That's not xenophobia at all. He's refusing to do business with them because they started a war in Europe, not because they are russians.
I like Sassuolo
This sub acts so weird whenever this topic gets brought up. Of course you're gonna care more about a country that started a war 1,626 kilometers away from your doorstep, just like you're gonna care more if the guy next door gets murdered even if there's a mass killing in another country.
What a clown. I'm sure it was due to "ethical reasons" yeah.
Solid
No Russian.
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Refusing to do business with Russian clubs, the majority of whom have owners directly supporting or profiting from the invasion, is far different than demonizing the Russian people. Spartak is owned by Lukoil by the way.
There’s plenty of evidence out there of regular Russians being fully onboard with the invasion. These are the people who voted for Putin after he bombed the shit out of Chechnya.
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username certainly checks out based on this thread
Thanks.
Sassuolo A great bunch of lads
Bravo
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He said this knowing full well that he won't be caught with his pants down when the Saudis make an offer he can't resist... because chances are the Saudis are not going to make him any offers.
That's racism lmao
You don't know what you're talking about
"Ethical reasons, we don't deal with Africans" "Ethical reasons, we don't deal with Asians" "Ethical reasons, we don't deal with Muslims"
You listed races Russia is country you mug
Yeah Muslim is a race you donkey, you get the point
Pointing out your own failures mitht not be the way to go when trying to win an argument
My argument isn't that the examples were all race, it was that they're all problematic
We both know why it's different and why he said he doesn't deal with russians also who they sell their players to is theirs to decide
The same way it's someone's decision who they hate and for what reasons. He's entitled to his opinion, but that opinion is racist
Why are you still acting like you don't know why he doesn't deal with russians let me help you it isn't because they're russians
"Remember, no Russian" Sassuolo CEO talking to his players’ agents
shots fired at lazio
Says the Chelsea fan 😂