Completely expected outcome based on who Southgate has actually given minutes to.
I don't think it's deserved based on March and his club form since then but Southgate values leadership very highly and will likely be Guehi and Stones starting games anyway.
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Sure, but then the alternatives (Quansah, Brantwaithe) have 28 minutes of football for England between them - hard to argue that they've been better for the side than Dunk has been, I reckon.
Branthwaite not getting more of a chance in the March friendlies was a big mistake.
I usually really don’t care much at all about the 24/25th members of the squad and fans getting riled up about the exclusion of players from “smaller” clubs, but Branthwaite is one of our best 3 CBs, our only one who is left footed, and lack of experience can be the only reason for his exclusion.
E: Just thought he plays with our starting keeper at club level too. That has to be a big bonus.
Tarkowski literally has all the traits and qualities to be a player Southgate loves and would never drop so I’m surprised he hasn’t called him up in the past year
He was fantastic this year. I’m with you but there must either be friction there or something we don’t see because if you’re picking on form idk how both Everton CBs aren’t in the squad if not starting.
A lot of times successful international teams have players who have played club together as well, or at least in similar systems. An on form CB partnership would be a huge asset if they’re even close to as good as the other CBs.
Knowing Southgate he probably didn't like it that Tarki messed around and found out against Italy in his debut, which Southgate handed him.
He gave away the penalty 3 mins before time. He also held Bonucci with his hands in an attacking set piece which ended an England attack. This sounds innocuous but he's one of the most experienced players and at international level at the time, you can't get away with that.
Southgate's opinions of players are very hard to shift and he's the ultimate pragmatist as in he doesn't care how good you are on paper or with club if he has evidence otherwise with England.
Our player of the season imo, him and Branthwaite should both be going. He's a true leader.
I think he goes under the radar for just how good of a signing he's been on a free - he's played single every minute in back to back seasons now, apart from the concussion rule forcing him off in injury time vs Sheff U.
Foreign refs would absolutely hate him though it has to be said lol
Agreed, but why not give them more minutes then?
Brantwaithe has been a shining light for Everton and Quansah has played high level matches both domestically and in Europe and has not looked out of place.
It‘s not the end of the world as they would all be bench options anyway. But it‘s just another case of Southgate being incredibly slow to pick up on emerging talent and in form players, which again bites him now that it comes to selection.
How are they meant to get the chance to be better when they don’t get given the minutes in the first place?
Branthwaite should be there, and I’d have more faith in him than Dunk.
He had 1 bad game vs Belgium and then 1 error vs Brazil which was compounded by other players mistakes.
Personally I was surprised he got called up given his club form but his 3 other England games this season were fine and actually the friendlies before Christmas he was praised by everyone for his performances.
You could see this decision a mile away once Southgate started him on Monday and it was funny seeing people be adamant he was gunna be dropped. Will be Guehi and Stones as the starting duo. The fullback areas are bigger concerns in my eyes.
He has only really been noticeably bad for England in one game against Belgium. It was just that he was very bad.
He looked excellent in his first 2 games.
I think he’s been selected as a “in case of emergency” if Stones/Konsa goes down, like you mentioned. I’d think the last thing you want is to have a CB pairing of two kids.
With that said, surprised he didn’t simply stick with Maguire tbh
I think the Maguire injury screwed Branthwaite, Dunk is now more necessary without him and that leaves one fewer CB spot. Konsa plays multiple positions and Guehi has more caps.
I mean that Dunk became a more urgent pick with Maguire's injury, so Branthwaite was competing for a spot with Konsa and Guehi who were more secure picks.
Three strikers also potentially took a spot away too.
Seems like just yesterday people were clamouring for Dunk to get more game time after his great performances for Brighton. Gets a run in the team and suddenly everyone wants him bombed out for the next shiny new toy.
Branthwaite will have a future will the national team, and you can rest assured that as soon as he does there will be people demanding that the next new hot shot centre back should be taking his spot too.
God I hate this argument. It’s just dumb.
People wanted Dunk to play for England when he was playing really well for Brighton.
Now that he isn’t playing as well (and is a lot older), people aren’t clamouring for him to play as much.
He's only a year older lol the peak of people wanting him was literally last season where he was one of the best ball-playing CBs in the prem while also being solid defensively, team captain, and a set piece threat.
Man, don’t get me wrong this is the most talented England team in years but a center back core of Guehi, Stones, Gomez and Dunk looks pretty weak on first impressions
It's crazy how this generation of England players gets compared to the 2004/06 squad but their current defensive options are very poor especially when you compare it to the team that had Neville and Cole locked in as fullbacks with Terry, Ferdinand, Campbell, King, Carragher and Bridge as the other options you had at in defense. Stones is the only current English defender who's even close to that level. Walker isn't the player he once was, James and particularly Shaw can't stay fit, Trent might still be a right back for Liverpool but he's not exactly a conventional defender
Dunk has been decent for Brighton and poor for England whenever he's played. Gomez never really nailed down a spot for England but for Liverpool, when he's at it he is genuinely close to world class but he's been too inconsistent over the years with bad luck with injuries doing him no favours at all. Meanwhile Guehi looks good but he's quite young and inexperienced for both club and international football
Are you joking Gomez has some of the best club experience in the group. Winning a league title and champions league, is solid 1 v 1 and has played CB, RB, LB and even as an inverted full back. He was always going
Sure, but from a Liverpool perspective it’s a bit funny as Quansah is firmly ahead of Gomez in the CB pecking order- not even close frankly.
But obviously there’s more to it than just that.
The manager is picking for England not for Liverpool. Gomez fits a clear need positionally and is another mature character in a squad with a lot of new blood.
His experience will help the group
Also proven he can put in a top class shift literally anywhere in the defense so his value as potential injury cover or for mid-game tactical change flexibility is enough reason to make him a no-brainer inclusion.
Okay great. It’s not a joke relax just assumed that someone who starts over him every game at club level without question in their preferred/main position would make it over him on the team
Much much less proven though. They can, but we'll have to see if they can step up. I personally would have taken Bowen and Grealish and left Eze or Toney but I get it.
Think they might be genuinely worried about Kane if both Toney and Watkins are going
He's had a poor season in comparison to his competition. Based on 23/24, he's behind Saka, Foden, Bowen, Gordon, Palmer and Eze. He's behind Sterling who's nowhere near the squad anymore. We want Southgate to pick on form where possible, he's done that in the wingers.
Only 1 of saka palmer and Bowen can play at a time, and foden might take that spot anyway!
Grealish would’ve been so energized & motivated for this given his season, you’d think southgate would’ve been thrilled by how much safer of a player he’s become.
It's weird that he went from undroppable last season to Pep dropping him from the matchday squad entirely towards the end of this season.
He's probably just not been training well or has a few niggles. Neither of his coaches are exactly struggling for options in the positions he plays, plus his end product has been lacking for a couple of years compared to the players hes competing against.
Shame because he's probably the most fun England player to watch the way he just lethargically puts defenders on their arse (happened alot more before he became one of Pep's robots though tbf)
Palmer, Foden and Bowen can all play on the left too. Grealish seems to get far more grace than say a Sterling who's nowhere near, and has outperformed him.
He's a great player on his day, but he's been pretty forgettable for 6 months. That counts for something with Southgate for once.
Despite his popularity he has been mostly underwhelming in an England shirt, a half decent assist in a friendly doesn’t change that. He’s lucky he even made the provisional squad after the season he’s had.
Gordon & Foden are pretty handy at drawing fouls and successfully conning the refs too, and there’s Saka who gets kicked all over the place. With that said, I don’t think we should be relying on set pieces to do well in games.
Are you joking? Grealish played 80 minutes across 5 games at the World Cup, we scored 13 goals and the only one that happened with Jack on the pitch was the one he scored in the Iran thrashing. How on Earth was he vital?
I've always been critical of Grealish as a player, but not including him feels wild. Feel like Southgate is gone after this euros so he's not as conscious of relationships as he has been until now.
Eze looked good but Grealish was a difference maker in less minutes. Pep has trained the flair out of Grealish but he has the advantage of just being better at football than the players around him. He had the vision and technique to pick a useful pass when it mattered and we scored from it. For substitute attackers, that pure quality is so useful. Amazed he’s not going.
Eze looks like the player Grealish would be if he still actually took risks in the final third.
It's exactly the same with Doku at club level. Those players don't keep the ball locked in the final third like Grealish but they are more decisive more often.
The assist against Bosnia is just a one off. Doesn't mean anything really.
Truly seems crazy to me. He didn’t play nearly as much this season but that was mostly due to injury. And when he did play he offered City so much control and solidity on the left.
Don't worry , people who don't watch or actually follow our squad just see a low number besides his appearances and think he's a flop (after being a critical player in a treble winning side).
He looked really good in the Club World Cup and he had some other flashes, feel like last season was much better and his form was great too, just tough breaks for him
Bringing [this headline](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2FcO825U_Qf8e-gsspbROf7fN3RIRV0FHbXLdrG6z2xhU.jpg%3Fwidth%3D640%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D83ecc62230ea17f9fecd4f05309a75a5412f442b&rdt=49264) back but for palace and the euros
They don't play the same position really. Without Maguire and Dunk, then you have one person who can play CCB in Stones and that's it. Would be an unnecessary risk not to take Dunk.
If Maguire is fit I'd imagine Dunk doesn't go. Whether that means Branthwaite goes I'm not sure though.
In possession it'll be a 3 almost 100%. That's how the vast majority of teams operate, not juat England, and so on the ball you're thinking about someone who's gonna be playing CCB. Walker will likely fill into RCB and the other starting CB into LCB.
I don't think they're really the same type of aerially commanding, aggressive CBs defending transition situations from the middle nor are they the types to manage the ball with tons of touches and break lines from the middle plus spread it around like Stones and Dunk can do.
You can't really pick Branthwaite over Dunk as a replacement for Maguire.
I mean you can, but he's not the same type of player and you are completely throwing him in at the deep end with no idea how he will respond.
I expect it'll be Stones - Guehi if Maguire isn't fit
Bit worrying that our other options have little experience of tournament football but Guehi's been around the fringes as a third choice for a couple years now.
I like Branthwaite in general but I'm not that surprised. Partly cos Dyche's style of deep defending football often brings out the best in CBs and sometimes it's difficult to translate that to other setups like England.
Branthwaite was crap in the friendly too, all he did was come on, completely misjudge a high ball and clatter someone, and get booked for it.
We've played a higher line than man united this season and are literally just behind Palace. Calling him crap when he had nothing to do and got a yellow for going for a header is beyond harsh. He didn't show anything because there was no opportunity to. He should've had dunks minutes in the last set of friendlies too
I guess you’d argue that Palace line height is skewed by the Hodgson games, and that when Palace were playing really well at the end of the season (when he was fit) they played much higher
Dyche back line hasn’t been that far back this season as an Everton fan. Branthwaite probably moves up more than Tarkowski but he can do that because his speed for his built is amazing tbf
I respect all these decisions except Branthwaite.
Don't see the need in taking both Watkins and Toney but perhaps there are still questions marks over Kane's fitness.
Watkins and Toney is difficult. You can't drop Watkins really after the season he's had but Toney is probably a better one-for-one replacement for Kane. Can see why he's done it but not sure it would be my choice
Yeah I can only assume there's a small doubt lingering over Kane.
I've always thought the Watkins/Toney pair would lose one, but it was the most difficult choice of all because Watkins provides something different if you're chasing the game whilst as you say Toney is perfect cover for Kane incase of injury.
Maybe both going IS the sensible option after all.
> Maybe both going IS the sensible option after all.
I think it is, yeah, especially with the expanded 26 man squads rather than limiting it to 23. Ideally want both an option to replace Kane as like for like as possible as well as one that's stylistically different to change the game if needed - Toney is clearly the former, and Watkins the latter. Only other real option would've been Bowen, who's going anyway but seems penciled in as a winger.
Came here to say this. Watkins can play anywhere in the front honestly. Toney is true backup to Kane who will rarely come off the field barring injury.
Toney might be more similar to Kane, but he is clearly a worse player than Watkins in my eye. If Kane isn't fit is it not better to tweak the system and play the better players
Really hard to drop either of them. Toney is maybe the only striker in the world anyways who you could use to replace Kane without the dynamics of the team changing majorly. Watkins was the most prolific player in the league by goal contributions, and ultimately will just be a sub when England are looking for a goal relatively late in games.
I think you need both. Kane is likely to play every minute, but if he's injured you replace him with Toney. But if you're losing a game and need to change it you're more likely to bring on Watkins to play alongside or Infront of Kane.
Yeah that's where the doubt about Kane's fitness creeps in, if Kane is 100% fit then I think just Watkins goes and not both.
Good to have a few different striker profiles I think, I just hope Watkins can convert his club performances into international football soon.
>Don't see the need in taking both Watkins and Toney but perhaps there are still questions marks over Kane's fitness.
I can understand it tbh, very different players and I wouldn't mind seeing Toney get brought on in early ET, play a 4-4-2 and have him take a pen. Bloke is cool as fuck
You can usually tell it was a decent selection when people are arguing about who is warming the bench.
Even Maguire is now getting eulogized on here for once when the typical Gareth squad selection sees people moaning about him.
Jarrad Branthwaite had his first premier league season this year, he was part of the fourth best defence in the league and got the fourth most clean sheets of any centre half. He’s the tallest defender England have, he’s one of the quickest defenders England have and he’s also the only fit left footed defender England have. How on earth has he been dropped?
I think this decision makes it clear he’s absolutely not ready for a move to a top club. Why would they ever want a CB that gets dropped for Lewis Dunk?
Made a mistake in the friendly game. Got rinsed by Palmer in the Chelsea game.
To say he doesn't make mistakes isn't really true.
He's been better than Dunk and Guehi (injured) recently but has 0 international experience.
I said basically tbf, but the Chelsea game is the only instance and it was when we changed our defensive line
Players don't not ever make mistakes haha
I feel like he was never supposed to get minutes this tournament, and was brought in to the camp mostly to train and get slowly integrated with the set up.
But why? He’s had a better season than pretty much any England centre back this season, there’s zero reason he couldn’t have played a part in the Euros, especially with Maguire out.
Lots of fans seen to love the decision because "dunk is necessary for the maguire role". Which would suggest they think dunk should start, if they think maguire is essential (which they do). Insane way of thinking to me. They'd rather have the less talented player who has shown he's poor for England just because he's theoretically closer in style to your starter. It's also apparently due to experience even though dunk doesn't really have a lot of experience for England either, especially relative to his age. He has no potential to improve while brainthwaite is likely to be a part of the side for a while in the future.....I know which one id rather integrate into the team even if it requires a slight change in how I might play, especially as a backup.
Dunk must be the new Conor Coady of behind the scenes vibes man if he’s getting in ahead of any CB.
Shown himself up any time he’s taken a step-up in competition.
Every Brighton fan I have spoke to has absolutely raved about Dunk for years and said he deserves to be in the squad. I think compared to Branthwaite and Guehi he is a less sexy name but his consistency over a number of years has been really impressive. I also wonder if people don’t rate him as much because he has made it clear that he wants to be a one club man so he there is less of a spotlight on him as he won’t go to a top six club whereas people are more looking out for Guehi and Branthwaite to see where they will move. Also as you say given he is Brighton captain I imagine his soft leadership skills will probably be more valuable to the squad as a backup.
Typically, fans attribute a player’s form/ability to the team itself. Brighton suffered a lot in the 2nd half of the season as RDZ players were injured and his stubborn style wore off its charm.
Dunk wasn’t necessarily better or worse this year if you wanted the games, but fans this season will think he’s worse due to Brighton’s end of season form.
I know it’s fun to meme him because he plays for City but I genuinely think it’s a terrible decision not to take Grealish, especially without Raheem.
In past tournaments we’ve at times looked completely shut out and having a player like Sterling/Grealish who can do something a bit different has been an asset. I’m just not sure who brings that in this squad, a lot of the forward players are quite similar in profile.
This should be the one that shocks everyone, especially as we dont have many other naturally left-sided wingers.
He should be there over Bowen or Eze. Both have had good seasons, but neither are getting gametime over Saka, Palmer & Foden, whereas Grealish offers something different, with big game experience and the ability to see out a game as well.
Oh I'm ecstatic Wharton made it, I know it was only a cameo vs Bosnia but he looked really assured and mature, he'll be vital if any midfield injuries ruin plans.
To be honest he's a really valuable member of the squad in terms of profile. I'd still expect Mainoo to start over him if Rice is playing 6 but England don't have an abundance of consistent line-breaking passers, especially in early possession. Rice is exceptional at it but if anything happens to him, without Wharton they'd be absolutely fucked.
Also never hurts to have players who can help control the game to bring on as subs. Way more effective in keeping the lead and managing chances than just loading up on defenders and ceeding possession.
I just don't see the value of Wharton and Rice vs Rice and Mainoo if Bellingham is at 10 tbh. Rice is by a country mile the best 6 England have and not very much of his skillset offensively is lost when he plays 6, maybe a degree of freedom ball carrying but if you play Mainoo and Bellingham both then you have two elite carriers in midfield anyways. And defensively Rice is just the best 6 in the world imo. Hard to turn that down.
If Rice is gonna play 8 though it absolutely has to be Wharton to start at 6. Wharton is the only other player who can break the first line with consistency. Maybe Stones, but he has to be the starting CCB 100%.
I know, I just don't think that it's the best situation for the team to have a player who is absolutely miles better than any other option at 6, not play the 6. Especially when you don't lose that much of his skillset when hes playing there vs at 8.
England are gonna dominate games anyways, so it's likely Rice is gonna be playing at the edge of the final third screening the backline/recycling and managing possession. He's still close enough to goal for his shooting and passing into attackers to be valuable anyways.
Even for Arsenal honestly, you'd still probably say if they get LCM recruitment right then Rice is the long-term 6. Like if Patino for example turns good then they's probably have him play 8. Even if Havertz worked in that position better Rice would be playing 6 imo. He's just the best player in the world defensively from that position and not far away from that title on the ball either.
Well Rice-Phillips wasn't a good midfield in the first place tbh. England might've gotten some results with that pairing but it really wasn't one that got the best out of either player with Phillips playing more advanced, and it didn't really create that good a dynamic for the team.
I do think Wharton would work better as a partner for Rice if the latter is playing more advanced, but again I don't think it creates as good a dynamic for the team as Rice-Mainoo assuming Bellingham plays 10 or even if it's Rice sitting and Mainoo and Bellingham on either side.
I'll put it this way. England should be thinking about players for Declan Rice to be passing to out of the first phase imo. I think in that context you'd have Mainoo instead of Wharton.
Tbh I don’t understand the upvotes here. Have you seen him play? The guy is fantastic defensively and I’m willing to bet he’ll end up being a better passer than any other option we have in there.
The fact he joined Palace late and still got on the squad shows how good he’s been in, and Southgate absolutely deserves praise for recognising that talent.
When someone says a player has only done stuff in training it implies he hasn’t been playing well, which is the opposite. He helped rejuvenate Palace to be one of the best teams in the second half of the season
Adam Wharton making it is crazy, not that he doesn’t deserve it but it feels like a very late push has got him in. I feel like Southgate has taken a lot of the criticism of him for favouritism and not picking players in form on board with this squad, will be interesting to see how it goes for him.
People overvalue experience. Sure experience can be one factor but it can't be the only thing going for a player. You can't value experience when the player has played more but been poor... how are the younger, inexperienced, but more talented players meant to gain experience if they aren't played more? It's a self perpetuating logic which can be used to justify any player keeping his place. It's also how you never give young players a chance to improve. Unless they are perfect in their debuts, fans will justify keeping them from more chances by saying he was bad when he got a chance....yeah the inexperienced player played once or twice in a completely changed side and wasn't great, let's cement his reputation as "He's always poor for the national team!"
It's annoying that its such a common thought across all national team fans.
To add to that Shaw has not played since forever at this point and Walker has not been as solid and has been caught out a lot more this season, to complete the defence.
Pickford is going to need to have some tournament for sure for the team to go anywhere.
I see people say He values leadership which is why Dunk is in but then why take him over Maguire?
The bigger question is why is Branthwaite not going, he's the best English CB this season.
The rest won't matter.
Genuinely surprised about Branthwaite seeing as Maguire is also out. Thought he looked decent the over night when he came on and has had a great season. Dunk hasn’t impressed for England at all IMO.
Really surprised Dunk got in and that Grealish was left out. I'd say Jack is still our second most technically gifted player after Foden. Maybe it's something off the pitch?
Jarrad ❌️ Jarrell ❌️ Jarrod ✅️
Jerob??? My name's JEROB???
We need more Jerob license plates in the gift shop! I repeat, we are sold out of Jerob license plates!
Excuse me, my son is also named Jerob
that dude woulda been perfect for percy jackson if he was younger
His name is Lange Gerrit! Dammit
3 CBs missed out and Dunk isn't one of them
Completely expected outcome based on who Southgate has actually given minutes to. I don't think it's deserved based on March and his club form since then but Southgate values leadership very highly and will likely be Guehi and Stones starting games anyway.
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Sure, but then the alternatives (Quansah, Brantwaithe) have 28 minutes of football for England between them - hard to argue that they've been better for the side than Dunk has been, I reckon.
Branthwaite not getting more of a chance in the March friendlies was a big mistake. I usually really don’t care much at all about the 24/25th members of the squad and fans getting riled up about the exclusion of players from “smaller” clubs, but Branthwaite is one of our best 3 CBs, our only one who is left footed, and lack of experience can be the only reason for his exclusion. E: Just thought he plays with our starting keeper at club level too. That has to be a big bonus.
Branthwaite and Tarkowski not getting a look is a travesty
Tarkowski literally has all the traits and qualities to be a player Southgate loves and would never drop so I’m surprised he hasn’t called him up in the past year
He was fantastic this year. I’m with you but there must either be friction there or something we don’t see because if you’re picking on form idk how both Everton CBs aren’t in the squad if not starting.
A lot of times successful international teams have players who have played club together as well, or at least in similar systems. An on form CB partnership would be a huge asset if they’re even close to as good as the other CBs.
Plus they play together with Pickford at club level so they're already familiar with each other. Seems a weird decision to pass over both of them.
Knowing Southgate he probably didn't like it that Tarki messed around and found out against Italy in his debut, which Southgate handed him. He gave away the penalty 3 mins before time. He also held Bonucci with his hands in an attacking set piece which ended an England attack. This sounds innocuous but he's one of the most experienced players and at international level at the time, you can't get away with that. Southgate's opinions of players are very hard to shift and he's the ultimate pragmatist as in he doesn't care how good you are on paper or with club if he has evidence otherwise with England.
Where’s the evidence for Dunk then, had 2 absolute horror showings in the March friendlies.
Our player of the season imo, him and Branthwaite should both be going. He's a true leader. I think he goes under the radar for just how good of a signing he's been on a free - he's played single every minute in back to back seasons now, apart from the concussion rule forcing him off in injury time vs Sheff U. Foreign refs would absolutely hate him though it has to be said lol
He’ll definitely get a call up next year unless there’s an injury or something
And stilll no Tomori
Agreed, but why not give them more minutes then? Brantwaithe has been a shining light for Everton and Quansah has played high level matches both domestically and in Europe and has not looked out of place. It‘s not the end of the world as they would all be bench options anyway. But it‘s just another case of Southgate being incredibly slow to pick up on emerging talent and in form players, which again bites him now that it comes to selection.
How are they meant to get the chance to be better when they don’t get given the minutes in the first place? Branthwaite should be there, and I’d have more faith in him than Dunk.
I mean if the argument is that they don’t have minutes for England, how do they get minutes for England if they don’t have minutes for England?
Having no impact at all is better for England than having a negative impact.
Woah, hang on, he was man of the match in a 1-0 win over Australia
He had 1 bad game vs Belgium and then 1 error vs Brazil which was compounded by other players mistakes. Personally I was surprised he got called up given his club form but his 3 other England games this season were fine and actually the friendlies before Christmas he was praised by everyone for his performances. You could see this decision a mile away once Southgate started him on Monday and it was funny seeing people be adamant he was gunna be dropped. Will be Guehi and Stones as the starting duo. The fullback areas are bigger concerns in my eyes.
He has only really been noticeably bad for England in one game against Belgium. It was just that he was very bad. He looked excellent in his first 2 games.
He was bad against Brazil too
I think he’s been selected as a “in case of emergency” if Stones/Konsa goes down, like you mentioned. I’d think the last thing you want is to have a CB pairing of two kids. With that said, surprised he didn’t simply stick with Maguire tbh
Fume over which CB is going to not feature unless we've already won the group by the final game I love it
It's England 'eritgate
I think the Maguire injury screwed Branthwaite, Dunk is now more necessary without him and that leaves one fewer CB spot. Konsa plays multiple positions and Guehi has more caps.
How does it leave one fewer CB spot? Agree with the rest of your assessment but I don’t see how the number of spots has changed
I mean that Dunk became a more urgent pick with Maguire's injury, so Branthwaite was competing for a spot with Konsa and Guehi who were more secure picks. Three strikers also potentially took a spot away too.
I'd have thought it opens up two spots now that slabhead has vacated the premises
I was sure Dunk wouldn't have gotten a sniff after that Brazil game and his largely unimpressive season, hoping to be proven wrong
Seems like just yesterday people were clamouring for Dunk to get more game time after his great performances for Brighton. Gets a run in the team and suddenly everyone wants him bombed out for the next shiny new toy. Branthwaite will have a future will the national team, and you can rest assured that as soon as he does there will be people demanding that the next new hot shot centre back should be taking his spot too.
Because he's not playing as well as when people wanted him in the squad
deleted
He didn't play well when called upon, it's as simple as that.
God I hate this argument. It’s just dumb. People wanted Dunk to play for England when he was playing really well for Brighton. Now that he isn’t playing as well (and is a lot older), people aren’t clamouring for him to play as much.
He's only a year older lol the peak of people wanting him was literally last season where he was one of the best ball-playing CBs in the prem while also being solid defensively, team captain, and a set piece threat.
Dunk hasn’t even been brightons best center back this season lol, should be nowhere near the England squad
If Maguire doesn’t play stones is gonna get all the blame for dunks poor play
When every tournament ends in failure, we need scapegoats not heroes, dammit.
Man, don’t get me wrong this is the most talented England team in years but a center back core of Guehi, Stones, Gomez and Dunk looks pretty weak on first impressions
It's crazy how this generation of England players gets compared to the 2004/06 squad but their current defensive options are very poor especially when you compare it to the team that had Neville and Cole locked in as fullbacks with Terry, Ferdinand, Campbell, King, Carragher and Bridge as the other options you had at in defense. Stones is the only current English defender who's even close to that level. Walker isn't the player he once was, James and particularly Shaw can't stay fit, Trent might still be a right back for Liverpool but he's not exactly a conventional defender Dunk has been decent for Brighton and poor for England whenever he's played. Gomez never really nailed down a spot for England but for Liverpool, when he's at it he is genuinely close to world class but he's been too inconsistent over the years with bad luck with injuries doing him no favours at all. Meanwhile Guehi looks good but he's quite young and inexperienced for both club and international football
🎶 if the Neville's can play for England so can I 🎶
Wait Gomez made it over Quansah? Just assumed he wasn’t even on the list.
Are you joking Gomez has some of the best club experience in the group. Winning a league title and champions league, is solid 1 v 1 and has played CB, RB, LB and even as an inverted full back. He was always going
Sure, but from a Liverpool perspective it’s a bit funny as Quansah is firmly ahead of Gomez in the CB pecking order- not even close frankly. But obviously there’s more to it than just that.
The manager is picking for England not for Liverpool. Gomez fits a clear need positionally and is another mature character in a squad with a lot of new blood. His experience will help the group
Also proven he can put in a top class shift literally anywhere in the defense so his value as potential injury cover or for mid-game tactical change flexibility is enough reason to make him a no-brainer inclusion.
Okay great. It’s not a joke relax just assumed that someone who starts over him every game at club level without question in their preferred/main position would make it over him on the team
Don’t forget Konsa
I thought for sure Grealish would be in
Crazy that he isn’t, he’s great for drawing fouls and his assist to Trent was sublime
Yeah he is the perfect differentiator late in games vs what we already have. Can imagine we’ll really miss him in the knockout phase.
Think Eze and Bowen can offer similar impacts off the bench
Much much less proven though. They can, but we'll have to see if they can step up. I personally would have taken Bowen and Grealish and left Eze or Toney but I get it. Think they might be genuinely worried about Kane if both Toney and Watkins are going
Eze is a much more dynamic version of him
But is he as good at protecting a lead? Eze should have been in regardless but I’d take Grealish over Toney. Don’t understand why we have three 9s.
I'm guessing because Watkins and Toney are very different 9s and if Kane gets injured we need the flexibility
How is toney different from Watkins? Playstyle wise
He's had a poor season in comparison to his competition. Based on 23/24, he's behind Saka, Foden, Bowen, Gordon, Palmer and Eze. He's behind Sterling who's nowhere near the squad anymore. We want Southgate to pick on form where possible, he's done that in the wingers.
Only 1 of saka palmer and Bowen can play at a time, and foden might take that spot anyway! Grealish would’ve been so energized & motivated for this given his season, you’d think southgate would’ve been thrilled by how much safer of a player he’s become.
It's weird that he went from undroppable last season to Pep dropping him from the matchday squad entirely towards the end of this season. He's probably just not been training well or has a few niggles. Neither of his coaches are exactly struggling for options in the positions he plays, plus his end product has been lacking for a couple of years compared to the players hes competing against. Shame because he's probably the most fun England player to watch the way he just lethargically puts defenders on their arse (happened alot more before he became one of Pep's robots though tbf)
Palmer, Foden and Bowen can all play on the left too. Grealish seems to get far more grace than say a Sterling who's nowhere near, and has outperformed him. He's a great player on his day, but he's been pretty forgettable for 6 months. That counts for something with Southgate for once.
Surprised, too, especially considering squad size has increased
Despite his popularity he has been mostly underwhelming in an England shirt, a half decent assist in a friendly doesn’t change that. He’s lucky he even made the provisional squad after the season he’s had. Gordon & Foden are pretty handy at drawing fouls and successfully conning the refs too, and there’s Saka who gets kicked all over the place. With that said, I don’t think we should be relying on set pieces to do well in games.
Are you joking? He was vital for us in the last competition. His linkup play with Shaw was fantastic and it was one of our only attacking avenues.
Are you joking? Grealish played 80 minutes across 5 games at the World Cup, we scored 13 goals and the only one that happened with Jack on the pitch was the one he scored in the Iran thrashing. How on Earth was he vital?
I've always been critical of Grealish as a player, but not including him feels wild. Feel like Southgate is gone after this euros so he's not as conscious of relationships as he has been until now.
well he took forever to let Grealish into the squad in the first place
He's always hated him it's weird
Eze’s performance v Bosnia might’ve changed Southgate’s mind. He was superb that game. Time to have discourse about £100m City bench warmer though…
Eze looked good but Grealish was a difference maker in less minutes. Pep has trained the flair out of Grealish but he has the advantage of just being better at football than the players around him. He had the vision and technique to pick a useful pass when it mattered and we scored from it. For substitute attackers, that pure quality is so useful. Amazed he’s not going.
Eze looks like the player Grealish would be if he still actually took risks in the final third. It's exactly the same with Doku at club level. Those players don't keep the ball locked in the final third like Grealish but they are more decisive more often. The assist against Bosnia is just a one off. Doesn't mean anything really.
Wonder if he regrets being turned into a pepbot?
i hope this makes him leave this summer but I doubt it will
Wouldn't be surprised if Pep wants rid anyway at this point
Truly seems crazy to me. He didn’t play nearly as much this season but that was mostly due to injury. And when he did play he offered City so much control and solidity on the left.
Don't worry , people who don't watch or actually follow our squad just see a low number besides his appearances and think he's a flop (after being a critical player in a treble winning side).
He looked really good in the Club World Cup and he had some other flashes, feel like last season was much better and his form was great too, just tough breaks for him
It's very funny that he isn't
If we win the Euros, it's counting as a Crystal Palace win. Four Palace players Gareth? Four?! That's insane.
Bringing [this headline](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2FcO825U_Qf8e-gsspbROf7fN3RIRV0FHbXLdrG6z2xhU.jpg%3Fwidth%3D640%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D83ecc62230ea17f9fecd4f05309a75a5412f442b&rdt=49264) back but for palace and the euros
4 more than spurs 😏
and lost twice to Spurs this past season with Maddison starting both matches.
He did play for them though. Rationality & sentimentality prevailed at the same time lol
I see you Mark Corrigan
Dunk over Branthwaite smh
They don't play the same position really. Without Maguire and Dunk, then you have one person who can play CCB in Stones and that's it. Would be an unnecessary risk not to take Dunk. If Maguire is fit I'd imagine Dunk doesn't go. Whether that means Branthwaite goes I'm not sure though.
Southgate’s gonna go 3 ATB again?
In possession it'll be a 3 almost 100%. That's how the vast majority of teams operate, not juat England, and so on the ball you're thinking about someone who's gonna be playing CCB. Walker will likely fill into RCB and the other starting CB into LCB.
Could always have Rice or whoever slot back in and have Walker push up? Don't watch enough England games to validate that's possible though
that wouldn’t get the best out of rice or the best out of walker
Konsa, Guehi?
I don't think they're really the same type of aerially commanding, aggressive CBs defending transition situations from the middle nor are they the types to manage the ball with tons of touches and break lines from the middle plus spread it around like Stones and Dunk can do.
Dunk had the second most passes in the league last season and is the best passer (at CB) behind Stones in this England squad.
Best passer of the centre-backs you mean surely?
Yep sorry, missed that bit out.
You can't really pick Branthwaite over Dunk as a replacement for Maguire. I mean you can, but he's not the same type of player and you are completely throwing him in at the deep end with no idea how he will respond.
Isn't Branthwaite the only left footed CB?
This more than anything else is why I thought he would be a lock. I can only assume the Maguire fitness changed plans.
Guehi almost always plays LCB even though he's right footed, as far as CB go he's pretty two footed.
Southgate isn't arsed about CB footedness really, Maguire was always our left sided CB and Guehi plays left sided too when he's starting.
Branthwaite should be in, especially with Maguire not being fit. Rest is fair enough.
I expect it'll be Stones - Guehi if Maguire isn't fit Bit worrying that our other options have little experience of tournament football but Guehi's been around the fringes as a third choice for a couple years now.
Branthwaite is a bit of a surprise
I like Branthwaite in general but I'm not that surprised. Partly cos Dyche's style of deep defending football often brings out the best in CBs and sometimes it's difficult to translate that to other setups like England. Branthwaite was crap in the friendly too, all he did was come on, completely misjudge a high ball and clatter someone, and get booked for it.
We've played a higher line than man united this season and are literally just behind Palace. Calling him crap when he had nothing to do and got a yellow for going for a header is beyond harsh. He didn't show anything because there was no opportunity to. He should've had dunks minutes in the last set of friendlies too
I guess you’d argue that Palace line height is skewed by the Hodgson games, and that when Palace were playing really well at the end of the season (when he was fit) they played much higher
Dyche back line hasn’t been that far back this season as an Everton fan. Branthwaite probably moves up more than Tarkowski but he can do that because his speed for his built is amazing tbf
Do you just want to admit that you didn't watch much Everton this season? Our average defensive line was basically league average this year.
I respect all these decisions except Branthwaite. Don't see the need in taking both Watkins and Toney but perhaps there are still questions marks over Kane's fitness.
Watkins and Toney is difficult. You can't drop Watkins really after the season he's had but Toney is probably a better one-for-one replacement for Kane. Can see why he's done it but not sure it would be my choice
Yeah I can only assume there's a small doubt lingering over Kane. I've always thought the Watkins/Toney pair would lose one, but it was the most difficult choice of all because Watkins provides something different if you're chasing the game whilst as you say Toney is perfect cover for Kane incase of injury. Maybe both going IS the sensible option after all.
> Maybe both going IS the sensible option after all. I think it is, yeah, especially with the expanded 26 man squads rather than limiting it to 23. Ideally want both an option to replace Kane as like for like as possible as well as one that's stylistically different to change the game if needed - Toney is clearly the former, and Watkins the latter. Only other real option would've been Bowen, who's going anyway but seems penciled in as a winger.
Watkins can also cover on the left especially since Grealish got dropped
Came here to say this. Watkins can play anywhere in the front honestly. Toney is true backup to Kane who will rarely come off the field barring injury.
Toney might be more similar to Kane, but he is clearly a worse player than Watkins in my eye. If Kane isn't fit is it not better to tweak the system and play the better players
Really hard to drop either of them. Toney is maybe the only striker in the world anyways who you could use to replace Kane without the dynamics of the team changing majorly. Watkins was the most prolific player in the league by goal contributions, and ultimately will just be a sub when England are looking for a goal relatively late in games.
I think you need both. Kane is likely to play every minute, but if he's injured you replace him with Toney. But if you're losing a game and need to change it you're more likely to bring on Watkins to play alongside or Infront of Kane.
Yeah that's where the doubt about Kane's fitness creeps in, if Kane is 100% fit then I think just Watkins goes and not both. Good to have a few different striker profiles I think, I just hope Watkins can convert his club performances into international football soon.
>Don't see the need in taking both Watkins and Toney but perhaps there are still questions marks over Kane's fitness. I can understand it tbh, very different players and I wouldn't mind seeing Toney get brought on in early ET, play a 4-4-2 and have him take a pen. Bloke is cool as fuck
4-4-2 lad two LARGE strikers, cool as fuck
Lol I meant to say that he was cool when it came to a pen, realise now it sounds silly 🤣
I show more nerves farting in bed than Toney does taking a pen
Agreed, people have trashed the guy for years about playing the same group of players but this time he shakes it up and people are still unhappy
You can usually tell it was a decent selection when people are arguing about who is warming the bench. Even Maguire is now getting eulogized on here for once when the typical Gareth squad selection sees people moaning about him.
Jarrad Branthwaite had his first premier league season this year, he was part of the fourth best defence in the league and got the fourth most clean sheets of any centre half. He’s the tallest defender England have, he’s one of the quickest defenders England have and he’s also the only fit left footed defender England have. How on earth has he been dropped?
He also basically doesn't make mistakes and has been an absolute revelation.... Very sad news
I think this decision makes it clear he’s absolutely not ready for a move to a top club. Why would they ever want a CB that gets dropped for Lewis Dunk?
Yes exactly this
Made a mistake in the friendly game. Got rinsed by Palmer in the Chelsea game. To say he doesn't make mistakes isn't really true. He's been better than Dunk and Guehi (injured) recently but has 0 international experience.
I said basically tbf, but the Chelsea game is the only instance and it was when we changed our defensive line Players don't not ever make mistakes haha
I feel like he was never supposed to get minutes this tournament, and was brought in to the camp mostly to train and get slowly integrated with the set up.
But why? He’s had a better season than pretty much any England centre back this season, there’s zero reason he couldn’t have played a part in the Euros, especially with Maguire out.
Surely Branthwaite is like the picture perfect replacement for an injuried Maguire, he even plays on that side
That's literally Dunk's profile tbh. Branthwaite goes if Maguire's fit.
Branthwhite has been the most impressive English CB this season and he misses out is tragic.
Lots of fans seen to love the decision because "dunk is necessary for the maguire role". Which would suggest they think dunk should start, if they think maguire is essential (which they do). Insane way of thinking to me. They'd rather have the less talented player who has shown he's poor for England just because he's theoretically closer in style to your starter. It's also apparently due to experience even though dunk doesn't really have a lot of experience for England either, especially relative to his age. He has no potential to improve while brainthwaite is likely to be a part of the side for a while in the future.....I know which one id rather integrate into the team even if it requires a slight change in how I might play, especially as a backup.
I think tarkowski has been better, I would have taken him personally
100%. Tarks would have been the ideal swap for Maguire IMO. Arguably a better player than Maguire on current form.
Dunk must be the new Conor Coady of behind the scenes vibes man if he’s getting in ahead of any CB. Shown himself up any time he’s taken a step-up in competition.
Every Brighton fan I have spoke to has absolutely raved about Dunk for years and said he deserves to be in the squad. I think compared to Branthwaite and Guehi he is a less sexy name but his consistency over a number of years has been really impressive. I also wonder if people don’t rate him as much because he has made it clear that he wants to be a one club man so he there is less of a spotlight on him as he won’t go to a top six club whereas people are more looking out for Guehi and Branthwaite to see where they will move. Also as you say given he is Brighton captain I imagine his soft leadership skills will probably be more valuable to the squad as a backup.
Typically, fans attribute a player’s form/ability to the team itself. Brighton suffered a lot in the 2nd half of the season as RDZ players were injured and his stubborn style wore off its charm. Dunk wasn’t necessarily better or worse this year if you wanted the games, but fans this season will think he’s worse due to Brighton’s end of season form.
I know it’s fun to meme him because he plays for City but I genuinely think it’s a terrible decision not to take Grealish, especially without Raheem. In past tournaments we’ve at times looked completely shut out and having a player like Sterling/Grealish who can do something a bit different has been an asset. I’m just not sure who brings that in this squad, a lot of the forward players are quite similar in profile.
This should be the one that shocks everyone, especially as we dont have many other naturally left-sided wingers. He should be there over Bowen or Eze. Both have had good seasons, but neither are getting gametime over Saka, Palmer & Foden, whereas Grealish offers something different, with big game experience and the ability to see out a game as well.
Our defence is fucked. Surprised Grealish is gone, but I suppose he was competing with Eze and Gordon rather than Bowen.
Branthwaite over Dunk is insane. Rest of the decisions are probably the right ones though tbh.
I think with the exception of Grealish, these are more or less what we all thought would be the ones to miss out, right?
Branthwaite really? Didn’t expect that
How is Dunk here and not Branthwaite
Branthwaite but not Dunk?
Branthwaite not going is an awful decision
Grealish is proven for England. I’m a United fan and I recognise that he should be there
Southgate must have seen something from Adam Wharton in training
Oh I'm ecstatic Wharton made it, I know it was only a cameo vs Bosnia but he looked really assured and mature, he'll be vital if any midfield injuries ruin plans.
To be honest he's a really valuable member of the squad in terms of profile. I'd still expect Mainoo to start over him if Rice is playing 6 but England don't have an abundance of consistent line-breaking passers, especially in early possession. Rice is exceptional at it but if anything happens to him, without Wharton they'd be absolutely fucked. Also never hurts to have players who can help control the game to bring on as subs. Way more effective in keeping the lead and managing chances than just loading up on defenders and ceeding possession.
If we’re not putting Bellingham in the 8, I wouldn’t mind Wharton at 6 and Rice at 8, is that crazy?
I just don't see the value of Wharton and Rice vs Rice and Mainoo if Bellingham is at 10 tbh. Rice is by a country mile the best 6 England have and not very much of his skillset offensively is lost when he plays 6, maybe a degree of freedom ball carrying but if you play Mainoo and Bellingham both then you have two elite carriers in midfield anyways. And defensively Rice is just the best 6 in the world imo. Hard to turn that down. If Rice is gonna play 8 though it absolutely has to be Wharton to start at 6. Wharton is the only other player who can break the first line with consistency. Maybe Stones, but he has to be the starting CCB 100%.
Wharton allows Rice to play further up as he played for Arsenal.
That's great but we have Bellingham and Foden to play in that area
I know, I just don't think that it's the best situation for the team to have a player who is absolutely miles better than any other option at 6, not play the 6. Especially when you don't lose that much of his skillset when hes playing there vs at 8. England are gonna dominate games anyways, so it's likely Rice is gonna be playing at the edge of the final third screening the backline/recycling and managing possession. He's still close enough to goal for his shooting and passing into attackers to be valuable anyways. Even for Arsenal honestly, you'd still probably say if they get LCM recruitment right then Rice is the long-term 6. Like if Patino for example turns good then they's probably have him play 8. Even if Havertz worked in that position better Rice would be playing 6 imo. He's just the best player in the world defensively from that position and not far away from that title on the ball either.
But England often play well with a double pivot and Wharton seems like he’ll be used as a more effective Kalvin Phillips.
Well Rice-Phillips wasn't a good midfield in the first place tbh. England might've gotten some results with that pairing but it really wasn't one that got the best out of either player with Phillips playing more advanced, and it didn't really create that good a dynamic for the team. I do think Wharton would work better as a partner for Rice if the latter is playing more advanced, but again I don't think it creates as good a dynamic for the team as Rice-Mainoo assuming Bellingham plays 10 or even if it's Rice sitting and Mainoo and Bellingham on either side. I'll put it this way. England should be thinking about players for Declan Rice to be passing to out of the first phase imo. I think in that context you'd have Mainoo instead of Wharton.
Don't know about the rest of the tournament but they are definitely starting with TAA and Rice double-pivot, with Bellingham as a 10.
There's just nobody else who can be a backup to Rice in that squad. Wharton's extremely important. Quite mature for his age
Tbh I don’t understand the upvotes here. Have you seen him play? The guy is fantastic defensively and I’m willing to bet he’ll end up being a better passer than any other option we have in there. The fact he joined Palace late and still got on the squad shows how good he’s been in, and Southgate absolutely deserves praise for recognising that talent. When someone says a player has only done stuff in training it implies he hasn’t been playing well, which is the opposite. He helped rejuvenate Palace to be one of the best teams in the second half of the season
And in PL
Really happy to have Wharton in the team.
A left footed CB would have brought a different dynamic to the team but oh well
Adam Wharton making it is crazy, not that he doesn’t deserve it but it feels like a very late push has got him in. I feel like Southgate has taken a lot of the criticism of him for favouritism and not picking players in form on board with this squad, will be interesting to see how it goes for him.
Swear any other manger would be thinking about starting Branthwaite and getting him used to a tournament
So Bowen made the cut? Tight
People overvalue experience. Sure experience can be one factor but it can't be the only thing going for a player. You can't value experience when the player has played more but been poor... how are the younger, inexperienced, but more talented players meant to gain experience if they aren't played more? It's a self perpetuating logic which can be used to justify any player keeping his place. It's also how you never give young players a chance to improve. Unless they are perfect in their debuts, fans will justify keeping them from more chances by saying he was bad when he got a chance....yeah the inexperienced player played once or twice in a completely changed side and wasn't great, let's cement his reputation as "He's always poor for the national team!" It's annoying that its such a common thought across all national team fans.
Would've loved to have Tomori now huh
Branthwaite missing out is idiotic
Stones who is out of form, Guéhi, Konsa, Gomez and Dunk is hilariously mid. I would have kept Branthwaite
To add to that Shaw has not played since forever at this point and Walker has not been as solid and has been caught out a lot more this season, to complete the defence. Pickford is going to need to have some tournament for sure for the team to go anywhere.
I don't get keeping both Konsa and Gomez, they offer pretty much the same profile and level
Mostly agree with this. Grealish should be dropped: glad Bowen and Eze are getting a chance.
Grealish over Bowen and Branthwaite over Dunk for me. Think we’ve got no chance at winning it with those centre back options to be honest.
What? Branthwaite and not Dunk, especially with Maguire out? Idiotic decision if true. What the hell does Dunk have on Southgate?
Am surprised by grealish, felt it would have been bowen cut since the right has saka, palmer and foden, guess Guehi will partner with Stones
I see people say He values leadership which is why Dunk is in but then why take him over Maguire? The bigger question is why is Branthwaite not going, he's the best English CB this season. The rest won't matter.
Maguire is injured.
Tears in my eyes, former Swan Marc Guehi might just start. Get Gallagher in there too
Genuinely surprised about Branthwaite seeing as Maguire is also out. Thought he looked decent the over night when he came on and has had a great season. Dunk hasn’t impressed for England at all IMO.
Quansah being on standby is wonderful, amazing breakthrough year. Delighted for him.
Kinda sad for grealish, tho many predicted he wouldn’t thrive under pep quite as much as he did for Villa
Trafford just needs more time to evolve into Old Trafford.
Really surprised Dunk got in and that Grealish was left out. I'd say Jack is still our second most technically gifted player after Foden. Maybe it's something off the pitch?
Go on Gordon!
Fuck it play Trent RB and Walker/Stones pairing at CB.