**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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I'm going to bet that Lukaku won't even celebrate next time, even if it's an obvious goal lol.
He'll stare at the linesman & the ref for good 30 seconds with a 1000-yard stare.
Fairplay for those semi automated offsides for getting it done quickly.
I'm just thinking of the FA VAR refs, looking at the screen and us all having to wait for 5 min.
To be honest with margin this close I think if it was human referee using VAR-Paint it could go either way. So semi-automated var, even if in reality was wrong this time, at least will be consistent and you can't say that someone fucked up on purpose.
Instead of having a human being at fault for annoying stuff, we can just throw our hands up and say "computer says no" and nobody takes responsibility. Perfect.
Lukaku has ridiculously large feet and it's hilarious it really came down to that.
Here's a comparison with Mata's foot
https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/s/O5ecBCVtqK
Idk the tide commercial in the superbowl a couple years ago is my all time favorite. The absolute genius of turning all other commercials into a tide commercial just blew me away.
*In an attempt to look for a way to remove the curse Lukaku visits various bookshops around Germany*
*Lukaku stumbles across an interesting looking book that dates back to 1812*
*Lukaku picks up the book and reads the title: Ashenputtel*
*He gives it a read*
💡
This is better than the alternative, when players could be offside by 5 yards and get away with it or onside by the same amount and have the goal disallowed
There's still quite some margin between this and that. Technology can be useful, but if you cannot make that call without technology, then objectively the players are also not capable of developing the skills to avoid those off-sides. You end up favouring speed over skill and timing in dealing with the off-side trap, which is not why the rule exists.
This. I feel like it's a simple rule change which allows a buffer. Such that a true offside becomes or obviously something that was actually in violation.
We need to remember that the rule is there to foster a level of strategy and competition. Lukkaku in this instance was 100% compliant to that, timing his run just as the pass was struck.
I'm a huge hockey fan and it's gotten similar. They can challenge an offside even after the fact - so long as a zone entry occurred before the goal, even if the goal was 30-60 seconds later, they can challenge and reverse it. Happened in the pen-ultimate game in the finals on Friday, and again, the infraction was a millimeter and only visible when basically pausing the feed. Not even slow mo, but they fucking had to frame by frame it.
I agree with you in theory, but even if we implement Wenger’s idea for offsides there’s always going to be ones that are so close we’ll think the call is harsh.
Offsides is black and white. You’re offsides or you’re not whether that’s 1 mm or 10 m
Exactly. Why is this so hard for people to understand?
Say we let this one go. "Ah well, he's really really close, so we'll call it a goal", is that then the new standard? A toenails length. Who decides that?
I really don't get the issue here. Of all the shit to complain about VAR for, this ain't it.
It's because most of us grew up with a rule that said "if in doubt, favor the attacker". Those close calls used to always be given to the forward in the spirit of the game and it's a bit shocking that they aren't. Football refereeing in general become clearer and more precise is a good thing but it changed the game so much that it's hard to adapt to some of its newer aspects.
>It's because most of us grew up with a rule that said "if in doubt, favor the attacker".
That didn't stop goals being disallowed with the attacker 2 meters behind the defender.
Well good thing its not in doubt then. This is factually and objectively the correct call.
Refs got it very very wrong all the time without var. Offsides was called when a player was 3 meters onside. Players where deemed onside when they were way way offsides.
This is much better.
>It's because most of us grew up with a rule that said "if in doubt, favor the attacker"
We did? I for one remember offside being even harsher before the 90s, when even same height/level was considered offside and the attacker had to be *behind* the defender...
Because the rule wast realy meant to work that way.
They made the rule so the attacker couldnt stand 10 meter behind the defensive line and score. I can understand that 1 meter gives the defender the disadvantage against an attacker. But what advantage does the attacker gain with a 1 cm difference...
My opinion is thats its destroying the sport. Its all about the emotion of scoring a goal and this whole var decisions are destroying the emotion behind the games
Yeah I’m with you 100% on this.
The rule was invented when there was no VAR and the idea was that the offside would be anything that a human referee can detect using his human eyes.
It wasn’t meant to be a debate over milimeters here or there, the linesmen were supposed to make that call when the attacker’s advantage was visible to the naked eye.
Everyone knew that there would sometimes be close calls and debatable decisions, but that was considered acceptable because the game was supposed to be refereed by humans, not space lasers.
If neither player nor any referee can detect the offside line, is it really offside? Who are we trying to please here? Robot overlords watching the game?
Yeah I have no idea why people want the game to be officiated like this. We’re changing outcomes of entire tournaments and seasons because a player might’ve been offsides by an imperceptible amount. What advantage does a player gain by being offsides like that? It’s a matter of him randomly lifting a leg a nanosecond before the defender does. Why the fuck do we care about that? It makes zero difference in the result of the play but we’re letting it decide games.
I agree. The spirit of the rule was to prevent the attacker from gaining an unfair advantage. There's no advantage gained in this situation. It's ridiculous.
What needs to be done, is simply show a pic of the moment of the pass. If the naked eye can't see a clear and obvious offsides then it's not. Get rid of all this tech and lines and whatnot.
Because it disallows perfectly good goals where no human in the world can even tell, let alone say any advantage was gained.
The edge of a player's boot being 1 atom further ahead makes no difference.
No human can position themselves that precisely. Even the best athletes in the world can't.
When you have to break out an electron microscope, people have lost any sense of what they're measuring and why to begin with. A rule designed to stop goal hanging has been repurposed to measure nanometers.
That's what the problem is.
Should do it like cricket: if it's within the margin of error, stick with the on-field call. Recognising that this 1mm here or there stuff is just spurious precision.
> https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/s/O5ecBCVtqK
Goal line technology is clear cut because it's a round ball and a straight line. Offside is all angles of limbs in a split second, with possible error on the exact frame. There's also nothing a player can control in this situation, definitely not what the offside rule is for. Soul destroying.
I think if we did introduce a buffer then it would work but people would need to accept that the buffer line (let's say 5cm) isn't the same as a straight up offside.
Like yeah in theory it'd be annoying if a player was 1mm over the buffer line but the point is they had already been given enough leeway and the line within the "spirit of the game" would have to be drawn somewhere. But in general I would much rather close calls like this be given in favour of the attack for the spirit of the game.
Why have the buffer line in the first place, then? Being 1mm over that line instead of 1mm over the actual offsides line would just cause these same arguments again, that it’s “against the spirit of the game” or whatever.
If we use VAR for offsides, we need a clear rule that needs to be enforced consistently. If we don’t, we can just stop altogether.
> Why have the buffer line in the first place, then
The argument would be so that attacking players can position themselves in line with the defenders without worrying if their foot momentarily steps beyond where it should be or their knee pokes a bit too far forward. i wouldn't mind seeing a trial somewhere to see if it worked any better.
biggest issue is then it makes it harder for linesman everywhere you dont have VAR, or you end up with two separate sets of rules
Yeah but he is saying that the spirit of the rule is to not be able to just cherry pick behind the defense. If you have the buffer you are saying “within this range, you don’t have a reasonable advantage ahead of the defender”. If you are 5cm past the player you really aren’t much farther ahead of them and basically standing right next to them. Anything past that is saying you have a reasonable advantage ahead of the defender.
Where would you draw the line from though? Clear daylight between the furthest back point of the attacker (the trailing shoulder)? To me that feels like quite a significant advantage for the attacking player.
OK lol define clear daylight then, if you're gonna use an exact measurement might as well be the correct one
I swear all the shit takes on VAR are just "its kinda bad vibes"
That is true - but at least you can't argue the computer is biased or "having a bad day". And personally, it feels a bit more pointless disagreeing with a automated decision than with a team of humans - but maybe that's just me!
Are they freezing the frame at exactly the right moment the ball leaves the passer’s foot?
There’s room for error unless they are using some form of ball tech on pass release. If not and it’s camera angles, this is prime error prone crap.
> There’s room for error unless they are using some form of ball tech on pass release
Which they are.
"this is the first ball for a UEFA Euro to feature "Connected Ball Technology", where it contains internal electronic sensors, allowing detection of its movement for UEFA match officials to use to assist in decision-making." [wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2024#Match_ball:~:text=this%20is%20the%20first%20ball%20for%20a%20UEFA%20Euro%20to%20feature%20%22Connected%20Ball%20Technology%22%2C%20where%20it%20contains%20internal%20electronic%20sensors%2C%20allowing%20detection%20of%20its%20movement%20for%20UEFA%20match%20officials%20to%20use%20to%20assist%20in%20decision%2Dmaking.)
It would have probably been given as a goal.
Which if I’m honest I’d prefer, unfair advantage is why offsides were brought into play, this isn’t that….
So where would you draw the line? Or would you not draw the lines, and leave things up to the very trustworthy and all-knowing referee's interpretation? "Oh, yeah, that one FELT onside. I'm just getting a great FEELING from my bank account that the player owned by an oil state subsidiary was onside."
The people who go "Well there should be some leeway". Exactly how much leeway? Like... ok, make it a 10cm margin. There will still be calls where someone is 11cm offside and the same people will complain again.
Also imagine a couple decisions going against a big club/country deciding a tournament/competition and the tech basically saying "Well he was offside as shown here, but you wanted a margin soooooooo". I'm sure the response will be measured.
This argument makes no sense to me. The difference is if it was 11cm you can now make a clear argument the attacker had an advantage as we set a 10cm leeway and they went over it. 1cm over an actual physical part of the body is ridiculous, there's no advantage. We need a buffer for it to make sense.
How do you not see the difference in that?
Thats not having leeway, that is changing the rules. Should the rules be changed now that such precise calls are possible thus making current rules outdated? Yeah, I think so.
with this system the 'new offside rules' that I see pop up everywhere but never seen in a call or a game make a lot more sense.
This is made even better/worse by Ronaldo being onside by similar distance during Portugal's 3^rd goal.
Like, it is very possible that if you would switch the body frames of both players, this would be onside with Ronaldo, and Portugal's goal would be offside with Lukaku.
Man has to adapt to "rugby-style" play (only receiving the ball while being behind it in the moment of pass), because otherwise he will never be onside.
What's the margin of error on this technology? I've read both 50 fps for the cameras and 500 Hz for the ball sensor in this thread. A player going 20kph will move 10 cm between frames, or 1 cm between ball sensor updates. "Infinite precision" doesn't exist so I'd like to know how close they are.
Margin of error appears to be a couple of centimeters:
“Our strength is in the refresh rate of when the ball is connected with. We can determine the position of the ball but it would only be accurate to within two, three, four or five centimetres.”
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5176930/2024/04/22/semi-automated-offside-technology-explained/
This does not take into account the system that collects the players position data, the AI that processes the data into a 3D simulation that is used to make the call. Nor any possible time desync between the balls internal clock and the cameras internal clock.
Margin for error is definitely there.
Software developer here. What they probably did was take the error rate into account to give the attacker the benefit of the doubt. So they calculate this based on the worst case scenario (Aka with margin of error added to the benefit of the attacker). If that is still offside, then with 100% certainty, it is offside.
Or at least that is what I assume they did.
People are not complaining about how close the decision is. People are argumenting about this not being the intention of the offside rule.
The rule exists so attackers don‘t just chill behind enemy defense/defense can never move forward due to that.
I would even go as far as saying not having „same height“ for offside desitions anymore just makes attacking much much harder, because you alway have to be like 10cm behind defenders. Not sure thats a direction we want to go.
The current rule is wrong and against the spirit of the game. The attacker gains no advantage over the defender when his finger is 1cm in front.
This is utterly stupid imo and they should find something better, especially when you know that the var image has to be taken when the ball no longer touches the player's foot, but I doubt we have such precise cameras and sensors to determine the exact moment when the ball leave the passing player foot. They show us only the offside part with the attacker, and not the start with the player who makes the pass. What if the starting point is wrong? for example has a delay of 100 or 200 miliseconds?
I find it very strange that the offside has to be centimeter-accurate when the starting point is surely not an exact measurement and is rather approximate.
But this way, at least there is a small buffer for the margin of error even if its 5cm. If it's 6cm then there really shouldn't be any debate as 5cm buffer is already allowed.
Do u get it?
Literally the image here where someone has to make a subbjective decision about where someone's arm starts. Not to mention there's inherently an error from the frame-rate of cameras, though perhaps that's negligible now.
If VAR is to turn over “clear and obvious errors” then you can’t disallow goals that you don’t even know are errors. The linesman made a call, it is up to technology to prove that it was wrong. If the call is within a margin of error you can’t overturn it because you don’t know it was wrong.
This is why we need the "Wenger" offside rule.
When the offside rule was drafted, this was not the spirit of it.
If Lukaku literally had a smaller shoe size, he would be onside.
It won’t end the debate. We’ll just have the same debate but instead it will be about whether Lukaku’s back foot is a millimeter or two past the defender’s shoulder or whatever.
That's the problem with these "precision" drawings. It's all arbitrary, they could have easily pushed the line to the end of his sleeve and suddenly he's on. You see this kind of nonsense in the prem often.
Just think of this technology as an incredibly consistent, incredibly fast, and incredibly precise referee. Even though you can argue it’s arbitrary where the line is on the arm, at least it’s the same every time with automated offsides, unlike a linesman
> A player easily moves more than 5 centimers between frames.
~~You mean players can achieve 25 meters per second?~~
~~Because VAR cameras can work at 500 fps.~~
*While there* are *VAR (counting all sports and advertisements of products) cameras that can work at 500fps, and it seems that football uses ultra slow-mo cameras (of unspecified speed), after rechecking the Google, Wikipedia and FIFA site I can't find a definitive confirmation that currently Semi-Automatic Offside Technology do use such precise cameras*.
Okay, I have gone back to Google and now the only place I can find the 500fps claim is other post on Reddit... I am positively sure that previously it came from those "more questions" section, but going by browser history and opening previous Google searches bring up nothing.
Any "definitive" articles I can find are about [VAR tests and they only mention the standard 50fps cameras](https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/e20bc45d84e2931/original/Offside-Technology-Test-Manual-2022.pdf#page=5&zoom=auto,-278,604).
[This article](https://inside.fifa.com/video-assistant-referee-var), last updated in 2023 mentions that VAR has access to super slow motion and ultra slow motion cameras, but it doesn't specify anywhere what are their speed and if those cameras can be used to SAOL.
[Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_assistant_referee\#Camera_Setup) has only short mention of camera setup, but it has a [reference link](https://inside.fifa.com/origin1904-p.cxm.fifa.com/video-assistant-referee-var)... That doesn't work.
There was also some site which seems to be selling/supporting cameras for VAR usage, that makes claims that cameras with shutter speed of 1/100, 1/200, 1/500 second are needed (I am assuming that this means 100, 200 and 500FPS) but it doesn't seem to be related in any way to football.
So overall I must backtrack my 500fps comment.
This Reddit post 2 years ago says the cameras work at 50 fps and the chip in the ball is 500 hz.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/z8x3nq/technical\_capability\_of\_the\_semiauto\_var/](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/z8x3nq/technical_capability_of_the_semiauto_var/)
A 10x improvement over 2 years would be quite impressive.
I still agree with the approach though. Let an automated system decide and accept the results as being consistent.
What I don't get with this system: the image we see is a simulation. It is not real. Same with this tennis hawkeye thing. When I see the simulation, I stop doubting or discussing, because I see an image. But this image was created, there might still be errors. It is just presented in such a way that it looks "correct".
I'm curious, do they show the frame when contact was made on the ball because this is so close the frames make that much of a difference
Also what's the rules on the shirt because part of that's not being used?
This has gotten ridiculous to the point we no longer cheer when a goal is made, but are watching the ref instead.
To put it in perspective, if it wasn’t for own goals and VAR, we had better numbers now than France or Portugal. Instead we are low hanging fruits.
Offside is offside. I’d rather trust technology over linesmen, and as long as it’s fast, which it was, I don’t see any problems.
I wouldn’t disagree with allowing for a thicker line that allows for more leniency, though.
I wonder what is the speed of these cameras for them to be able to bring down margin of error to this fine of a level.
At top speed, around 38km/h, the camera would have to record at about a 1000fps to bring down the margin of error to about 1cm. Last I checked, the VAR cameras were at 250fps, which means 4cm error at top speed, which could make the difference between onside and offside here. (Obviously, not that lukaku was running that fast, but still a good amount of margin of error.)
"The new technology uses 12 dedicated tracking cameras mounted underneath the roof of the stadium to track the ball and up to 29 data points of each individual player, 50 times per second, calculating their exact position on the pitch." [source](https://inside.fifa.com/technical/football-technology/football-technologies-and-innovations-at-the-fifa-world-cup-2022/semi-automated-offside-technology)
On top off that it's fed through some AI to get a 3D sim, so margin for error has to be more than a toe to be honest.
The referees see Lukaku scoring a goal and immediately disqualify it.
Belgium vs France Final
1-0 Lukaku scores ‘37 disallowed goal VAR
1-0 Lukaku Scores ‘72 disallowed goal VAR off-side
1-0 Lukaku scores ‘89 disallowed goal VAR
0-0 FT+ET. France wins via penalty.
Mbappé shot on target 7.
**Mirrors / Alternative Angles** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/soccer) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He's absolutely cursed. That couldn't be any closer
I'm going to bet that Lukaku won't even celebrate next time, even if it's an obvious goal lol. He'll stare at the linesman & the ref for good 30 seconds with a 1000-yard stare.
he should do the VAR sign with a questioning look as a celebration next time he scores
Gotta make the VAR sign and kick through it
[Never forget ](https://youtu.be/i_Xx6g9ocMI?si=hAGu9-qXvM1tYvao)
VAR check complete. No goal. Foul on the buildup for making too much dissent on the officiating.
And he will get a card for it XD imagine if the goal will be ruled out again…
Upon review, those were gang signs, ejected.
That would be insanely good
He's gonna score a 30 yard screamer and still have it chalked off
Gonna be a teammate standing off-side next to the keeper for no good reason.
That teammate will somehow still be Lukaku's upper arm
It is pretty large to be fair
Fucking Dumfries strikes again!
That's a Balotelli celebration if I ever heard one
At this point his shellshocked look of disbelief with two hands on his head is his go to reaction after scoring
I like your word Shellshocked. I would feel the same way. He will have trust issues
Fairplay for those semi automated offsides for getting it done quickly. I'm just thinking of the FA VAR refs, looking at the screen and us all having to wait for 5 min.
To be honest with margin this close I think if it was human referee using VAR-Paint it could go either way. So semi-automated var, even if in reality was wrong this time, at least will be consistent and you can't say that someone fucked up on purpose.
Instead of having a human being at fault for annoying stuff, we can just throw our hands up and say "computer says no" and nobody takes responsibility. Perfect.
If there is a line in the sand, and the computer is 99.9999% accurate (consistent), it’s a great thing.
No system is perfect, but the computer is going to be wrong far less often than a VAR official will be.
Lukaku has ridiculously large feet and it's hilarious it really came down to that. Here's a comparison with Mata's foot https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/s/O5ecBCVtqK
Sideshow Bob vs Krusty the Clown shoe size.
Lukaku will find a way to get closer
This is cursed
Before the ball went into the net, I literally said "Oh my god he's in, but its Lukaku so there's a 90% chance this gets called back"
Either you talk really fast or that ball went in really slowly.
[u/Potkrokin as the ball goes into the net](https://youtu.be/NeK5ZjtpO-M?si=6dRoAQXJq0Q3bVpP)
I know this is old man saying back in my day territory but commercials were miles better in the past and no one can convince me otherwise
Idk the tide commercial in the superbowl a couple years ago is my all time favorite. The absolute genius of turning all other commercials into a tide commercial just blew me away.
see I thought it was going to be this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JxhTnWrKYs
Mfer commentating like Rap God
the anime narrative
[удалено]
*In an attempt to look for a way to remove the curse Lukaku visits various bookshops around Germany* *Lukaku stumbles across an interesting looking book that dates back to 1812* *Lukaku picks up the book and reads the title: Ashenputtel* *He gives it a read* 💡
I was hovering over lukaku anytime goal scorer, this happens.
There's a point at which science kills the spirit of the sport.
This is better than the alternative, when players could be offside by 5 yards and get away with it or onside by the same amount and have the goal disallowed
There's still quite some margin between this and that. Technology can be useful, but if you cannot make that call without technology, then objectively the players are also not capable of developing the skills to avoid those off-sides. You end up favouring speed over skill and timing in dealing with the off-side trap, which is not why the rule exists.
This. I feel like it's a simple rule change which allows a buffer. Such that a true offside becomes or obviously something that was actually in violation. We need to remember that the rule is there to foster a level of strategy and competition. Lukkaku in this instance was 100% compliant to that, timing his run just as the pass was struck. I'm a huge hockey fan and it's gotten similar. They can challenge an offside even after the fact - so long as a zone entry occurred before the goal, even if the goal was 30-60 seconds later, they can challenge and reverse it. Happened in the pen-ultimate game in the finals on Friday, and again, the infraction was a millimeter and only visible when basically pausing the feed. Not even slow mo, but they fucking had to frame by frame it.
"philosophy will clip an angel's wings"
native broadcaster just burst out laughing for solid half minute here, it was glorious
Same here in Lithuanian broadcast, first time I experienced commentator being unable to talk
They both went “what is he supposed to do, lose weight?”
Would have a link to a clip by any chance?
Post the clip please lol
+1
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/F6FyrM0r9L
really can't get much closer
He was 1 millimeter closer
There’s a whole tournament left give him time
Really feel like this goes against the spirit of the rule. There should be clear daylight between the defender and attack IMO.
I agree with you in theory, but even if we implement Wenger’s idea for offsides there’s always going to be ones that are so close we’ll think the call is harsh. Offsides is black and white. You’re offsides or you’re not whether that’s 1 mm or 10 m
Exactly. Why is this so hard for people to understand? Say we let this one go. "Ah well, he's really really close, so we'll call it a goal", is that then the new standard? A toenails length. Who decides that? I really don't get the issue here. Of all the shit to complain about VAR for, this ain't it.
It's because most of us grew up with a rule that said "if in doubt, favor the attacker". Those close calls used to always be given to the forward in the spirit of the game and it's a bit shocking that they aren't. Football refereeing in general become clearer and more precise is a good thing but it changed the game so much that it's hard to adapt to some of its newer aspects.
>It's because most of us grew up with a rule that said "if in doubt, favor the attacker". That didn't stop goals being disallowed with the attacker 2 meters behind the defender.
Well good thing its not in doubt then. This is factually and objectively the correct call. Refs got it very very wrong all the time without var. Offsides was called when a player was 3 meters onside. Players where deemed onside when they were way way offsides. This is much better.
>It's because most of us grew up with a rule that said "if in doubt, favor the attacker" We did? I for one remember offside being even harsher before the 90s, when even same height/level was considered offside and the attacker had to be *behind* the defender...
Because the rule wast realy meant to work that way. They made the rule so the attacker couldnt stand 10 meter behind the defensive line and score. I can understand that 1 meter gives the defender the disadvantage against an attacker. But what advantage does the attacker gain with a 1 cm difference... My opinion is thats its destroying the sport. Its all about the emotion of scoring a goal and this whole var decisions are destroying the emotion behind the games
Yeah I’m with you 100% on this. The rule was invented when there was no VAR and the idea was that the offside would be anything that a human referee can detect using his human eyes. It wasn’t meant to be a debate over milimeters here or there, the linesmen were supposed to make that call when the attacker’s advantage was visible to the naked eye. Everyone knew that there would sometimes be close calls and debatable decisions, but that was considered acceptable because the game was supposed to be refereed by humans, not space lasers. If neither player nor any referee can detect the offside line, is it really offside? Who are we trying to please here? Robot overlords watching the game?
Yeah I have no idea why people want the game to be officiated like this. We’re changing outcomes of entire tournaments and seasons because a player might’ve been offsides by an imperceptible amount. What advantage does a player gain by being offsides like that? It’s a matter of him randomly lifting a leg a nanosecond before the defender does. Why the fuck do we care about that? It makes zero difference in the result of the play but we’re letting it decide games.
I agree. The spirit of the rule was to prevent the attacker from gaining an unfair advantage. There's no advantage gained in this situation. It's ridiculous. What needs to be done, is simply show a pic of the moment of the pass. If the naked eye can't see a clear and obvious offsides then it's not. Get rid of all this tech and lines and whatnot.
Because it disallows perfectly good goals where no human in the world can even tell, let alone say any advantage was gained. The edge of a player's boot being 1 atom further ahead makes no difference. No human can position themselves that precisely. Even the best athletes in the world can't. When you have to break out an electron microscope, people have lost any sense of what they're measuring and why to begin with. A rule designed to stop goal hanging has been repurposed to measure nanometers. That's what the problem is.
How many atoms ahead do you need to be for it to be an advantage? What if you’re one atom less ahead than that? There needs to be a rule somewhere.
Should do it like cricket: if it's within the margin of error, stick with the on-field call. Recognising that this 1mm here or there stuff is just spurious precision.
> https://www.reddit.com/r/reddevils/s/O5ecBCVtqK Goal line technology is clear cut because it's a round ball and a straight line. Offside is all angles of limbs in a split second, with possible error on the exact frame. There's also nothing a player can control in this situation, definitely not what the offside rule is for. Soul destroying.
I think if we did introduce a buffer then it would work but people would need to accept that the buffer line (let's say 5cm) isn't the same as a straight up offside. Like yeah in theory it'd be annoying if a player was 1mm over the buffer line but the point is they had already been given enough leeway and the line within the "spirit of the game" would have to be drawn somewhere. But in general I would much rather close calls like this be given in favour of the attack for the spirit of the game.
Why have the buffer line in the first place, then? Being 1mm over that line instead of 1mm over the actual offsides line would just cause these same arguments again, that it’s “against the spirit of the game” or whatever. If we use VAR for offsides, we need a clear rule that needs to be enforced consistently. If we don’t, we can just stop altogether.
> Why have the buffer line in the first place, then The argument would be so that attacking players can position themselves in line with the defenders without worrying if their foot momentarily steps beyond where it should be or their knee pokes a bit too far forward. i wouldn't mind seeing a trial somewhere to see if it worked any better. biggest issue is then it makes it harder for linesman everywhere you dont have VAR, or you end up with two separate sets of rules
Yeah but he is saying that the spirit of the rule is to not be able to just cherry pick behind the defense. If you have the buffer you are saying “within this range, you don’t have a reasonable advantage ahead of the defender”. If you are 5cm past the player you really aren’t much farther ahead of them and basically standing right next to them. Anything past that is saying you have a reasonable advantage ahead of the defender.
Where would you draw the line from though? Clear daylight between the furthest back point of the attacker (the trailing shoulder)? To me that feels like quite a significant advantage for the attacking player.
OK lol define clear daylight then, if you're gonna use an exact measurement might as well be the correct one I swear all the shit takes on VAR are just "its kinda bad vibes"
*'Offisde should be decided by twitter poll to determine the correct vibe'*
Yeah it's about what people feel about the spirit of the rules versus the letter.
I'm just glad it is a machine making these ridiculous calls and not a person. Much harder to criticise a computer!
I agree, but reading this thread gives me a headache. People will always complain.
That is true - but at least you can't argue the computer is biased or "having a bad day". And personally, it feels a bit more pointless disagreeing with a automated decision than with a team of humans - but maybe that's just me!
Are they freezing the frame at exactly the right moment the ball leaves the passer’s foot? There’s room for error unless they are using some form of ball tech on pass release. If not and it’s camera angles, this is prime error prone crap.
> There’s room for error unless they are using some form of ball tech on pass release Which they are. "this is the first ball for a UEFA Euro to feature "Connected Ball Technology", where it contains internal electronic sensors, allowing detection of its movement for UEFA match officials to use to assist in decision-making." [wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2024#Match_ball:~:text=this%20is%20the%20first%20ball%20for%20a%20UEFA%20Euro%20to%20feature%20%22Connected%20Ball%20Technology%22%2C%20where%20it%20contains%20internal%20electronic%20sensors%2C%20allowing%20detection%20of%20its%20movement%20for%20UEFA%20match%20officials%20to%20use%20to%20assist%20in%20decision%2Dmaking.)
The speed for how tight these are is great
Imagine how long this would have taken with the Premier League system
It would have probably been given as a goal. Which if I’m honest I’d prefer, unfair advantage is why offsides were brought into play, this isn’t that….
You have to draw the line in the sand somewhere. Offside is a pretty cut and dry rule
Semi-Automated offside with objective rules is as good as it gets. No room for arguing.
Nothing is better than this made. If you set the bar for fair offside at 20cm you'd instead get this argument if someone is 21cm offside
Feel like most people are arguing about it not about drawing the lines but whether it feels fair/unfair, whether it's in the spirit of the rules
Ok, but then how many cm offside can you be before it's against the spirit of the rules? You have to draw the line somewhere
These other people are trolling, you just need to decide on a specific margin. 10 cm seems good
Ah yes they should start ruling offsides only when the ref deems it to be an unfair advantage, im sure the fans will all love the subjectivity of this
So where would you draw the line? Or would you not draw the lines, and leave things up to the very trustworthy and all-knowing referee's interpretation? "Oh, yeah, that one FELT onside. I'm just getting a great FEELING from my bank account that the player owned by an oil state subsidiary was onside."
It sucks if it's against you, but as long as the system is consistent I'll take it
Meh before VAR onside players were flagged all the time
I'm belgian and i'm all for it. Its correct and the the speed of the call is very good
When you’re cursed, football god don’t even miss by inch
in the heat of battle they don'miss
I feel so bad lol
You can’t help but laugh though
These tight calls will never not be funny.
You need to put the line somewhere...
The people who go "Well there should be some leeway". Exactly how much leeway? Like... ok, make it a 10cm margin. There will still be calls where someone is 11cm offside and the same people will complain again.
Also imagine a couple decisions going against a big club/country deciding a tournament/competition and the tech basically saying "Well he was offside as shown here, but you wanted a margin soooooooo". I'm sure the response will be measured.
This argument makes no sense to me. The difference is if it was 11cm you can now make a clear argument the attacker had an advantage as we set a 10cm leeway and they went over it. 1cm over an actual physical part of the body is ridiculous, there's no advantage. We need a buffer for it to make sense. How do you not see the difference in that?
Thats not having leeway, that is changing the rules. Should the rules be changed now that such precise calls are possible thus making current rules outdated? Yeah, I think so. with this system the 'new offside rules' that I see pop up everywhere but never seen in a call or a game make a lot more sense.
Bro getting killed for having a slightly bigger than normal kneecap
I think his toe is the furthest part offside
Definitely his toes. The 3D model doesn't even account for his big feet.
Aren't his toes the issue?
Well serves him right for being a fatass ^^/s
That is so representative of his experience at this tournament….
Lukaku should’ve worn smaller boots
Man has like shoe size 48 or something lol
His toenail's offside His toenail's offside Romelu Lukaku His toenail's offside
This is made even better/worse by Ronaldo being onside by similar distance during Portugal's 3^rd goal. Like, it is very possible that if you would switch the body frames of both players, this would be onside with Ronaldo, and Portugal's goal would be offside with Lukaku.
Too fucking bad. The reason Lukaku is good is because of his body frame.
Man has to adapt to "rugby-style" play (only receiving the ball while being behind it in the moment of pass), because otherwise he will never be onside.
He needs some Real Madrid black magic on his side
At this point it’s just cruel
What's the margin of error on this technology? I've read both 50 fps for the cameras and 500 Hz for the ball sensor in this thread. A player going 20kph will move 10 cm between frames, or 1 cm between ball sensor updates. "Infinite precision" doesn't exist so I'd like to know how close they are.
Margin of error appears to be a couple of centimeters: “Our strength is in the refresh rate of when the ball is connected with. We can determine the position of the ball but it would only be accurate to within two, three, four or five centimetres.” https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5176930/2024/04/22/semi-automated-offside-technology-explained/
This does not take into account the system that collects the players position data, the AI that processes the data into a 3D simulation that is used to make the call. Nor any possible time desync between the balls internal clock and the cameras internal clock. Margin for error is definitely there.
Software developer here. What they probably did was take the error rate into account to give the attacker the benefit of the doubt. So they calculate this based on the worst case scenario (Aka with margin of error added to the benefit of the attacker). If that is still offside, then with 100% certainty, it is offside. Or at least that is what I assume they did.
Science, bitch
I know this is technically offside but I find waving off a goal for something like this is just insane.
They should rename offside to be called lukaku, man this is a curse...
At least this technology gives us this angle, rather than having to pause a fuzzy frame from a wide angle. I do appreciate that
Offside is Offside. Harsh but is what it is. As long as they don't spend 10 minutes then guess, I'm for the consistency.
Don't forget the random lines drawn by refs for those 10 min. At least now, you know they aren't random.
Cmon man this is ridiculous
What else to do, the offside is an objective rule outside of determining whether a player is involved in play and Lukaku was obviously involved.
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People are not complaining about how close the decision is. People are argumenting about this not being the intention of the offside rule. The rule exists so attackers don‘t just chill behind enemy defense/defense can never move forward due to that. I would even go as far as saying not having „same height“ for offside desitions anymore just makes attacking much much harder, because you alway have to be like 10cm behind defenders. Not sure thats a direction we want to go.
Offside is offside innit
you have to draw the line somewhere. When this technology was introduced these were inevitable. We just have to get used to it I suppose
"Clear and obvious error" now means someone going "erm ackshually I think you'll find he was offside"
The current rule is wrong and against the spirit of the game. The attacker gains no advantage over the defender when his finger is 1cm in front. This is utterly stupid imo and they should find something better, especially when you know that the var image has to be taken when the ball no longer touches the player's foot, but I doubt we have such precise cameras and sensors to determine the exact moment when the ball leave the passing player foot. They show us only the offside part with the attacker, and not the start with the player who makes the pass. What if the starting point is wrong? for example has a delay of 100 or 200 miliseconds? I find it very strange that the offside has to be centimeter-accurate when the starting point is surely not an exact measurement and is rather approximate.
"It's 1cm offside, should allow 5 cm margin!" Later: "it was 6 cm offside, only 1 cm over the limit, they should allow that!"
But this way, at least there is a small buffer for the margin of error even if its 5cm. If it's 6cm then there really shouldn't be any debate as 5cm buffer is already allowed. Do u get it?
Or you know, “this is within the margin of error of the system, let the original decision stand”
Any source for the margin of error of the system?
Literally the image here where someone has to make a subbjective decision about where someone's arm starts. Not to mention there's inherently an error from the frame-rate of cameras, though perhaps that's negligible now.
or when exactly the ball is played. Lots of margins of error in offsides.
That's not really a question anymore since the ball has a sensor that allows you to know the exact moment it is touched
No one knows except the manufacturer and some executives at FIFA. But we could safely assume it’s not zero.
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If VAR is to turn over “clear and obvious errors” then you can’t disallow goals that you don’t even know are errors. The linesman made a call, it is up to technology to prove that it was wrong. If the call is within a margin of error you can’t overturn it because you don’t know it was wrong.
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A kneecap offside
And also the front of his foot. Seems pretty cut and dry
I mean even Lukaku's foot is in front of the defender's. Not sure what's here to complain about.
This and the handballs I’ve seen.. it’s just not how the game should be officiated. The players are not gaining advantages in any of these scenarios.
We need lines and frames for when the ball officially leaves the passing player’s foot or else calls this close don’t really sit right for me
Im guessing its using the time of impact from the sensor in the ball to determine when to check the offside
Rather have this than people choosing the lines
I hate the offside rule, its not like him being offside here is the reason for the goal
how would you fix the offside rule?
Football has turned into forensics 👍
These calls are hilarious but I love that these can be done in like 10 seconds now
This is why we need the "Wenger" offside rule. When the offside rule was drafted, this was not the spirit of it. If Lukaku literally had a smaller shoe size, he would be onside.
It won’t end the debate. We’ll just have the same debate but instead it will be about whether Lukaku’s back foot is a millimeter or two past the defender’s shoulder or whatever.
This is ridiculous. Where even is the line? There is part of #3’s shoulder ahead, they’ve just arbitrarily drawn it through his sleeve
yep, I really don't get how they or the system decides where the shoulder starts... it seems so random.
That's the problem with these "precision" drawings. It's all arbitrary, they could have easily pushed the line to the end of his sleeve and suddenly he's on. You see this kind of nonsense in the prem often.
Just think of this technology as an incredibly consistent, incredibly fast, and incredibly precise referee. Even though you can argue it’s arbitrary where the line is on the arm, at least it’s the same every time with automated offsides, unlike a linesman
Didn't cut his nails today. Cursed.
If we're gonna call offside by margins as small as these we need higher framerates. A player easily moves more than 5 centimers between frames.
> A player easily moves more than 5 centimers between frames. ~~You mean players can achieve 25 meters per second?~~ ~~Because VAR cameras can work at 500 fps.~~ *While there* are *VAR (counting all sports and advertisements of products) cameras that can work at 500fps, and it seems that football uses ultra slow-mo cameras (of unspecified speed), after rechecking the Google, Wikipedia and FIFA site I can't find a definitive confirmation that currently Semi-Automatic Offside Technology do use such precise cameras*.
Source? The ball sensor is 500hz but that's not the camera tracking. Someone else in this thread claimed 50fps.
Okay, I have gone back to Google and now the only place I can find the 500fps claim is other post on Reddit... I am positively sure that previously it came from those "more questions" section, but going by browser history and opening previous Google searches bring up nothing. Any "definitive" articles I can find are about [VAR tests and they only mention the standard 50fps cameras](https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/e20bc45d84e2931/original/Offside-Technology-Test-Manual-2022.pdf#page=5&zoom=auto,-278,604). [This article](https://inside.fifa.com/video-assistant-referee-var), last updated in 2023 mentions that VAR has access to super slow motion and ultra slow motion cameras, but it doesn't specify anywhere what are their speed and if those cameras can be used to SAOL. [Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_assistant_referee\#Camera_Setup) has only short mention of camera setup, but it has a [reference link](https://inside.fifa.com/origin1904-p.cxm.fifa.com/video-assistant-referee-var)... That doesn't work. There was also some site which seems to be selling/supporting cameras for VAR usage, that makes claims that cameras with shutter speed of 1/100, 1/200, 1/500 second are needed (I am assuming that this means 100, 200 and 500FPS) but it doesn't seem to be related in any way to football. So overall I must backtrack my 500fps comment.
This Reddit post 2 years ago says the cameras work at 50 fps and the chip in the ball is 500 hz. [https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/z8x3nq/technical\_capability\_of\_the\_semiauto\_var/](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/z8x3nq/technical_capability_of_the_semiauto_var/) A 10x improvement over 2 years would be quite impressive. I still agree with the approach though. Let an automated system decide and accept the results as being consistent.
isn't the sleeve part of the body?
It's part of his shirt.
What I don't get with this system: the image we see is a simulation. It is not real. Same with this tennis hawkeye thing. When I see the simulation, I stop doubting or discussing, because I see an image. But this image was created, there might still be errors. It is just presented in such a way that it looks "correct".
I'm curious, do they show the frame when contact was made on the ball because this is so close the frames make that much of a difference Also what's the rules on the shirt because part of that's not being used?
Game’s gone
VAR haters in ecstasy right now
Cant believe we cant score illegitimate goals anymore
Game’s been gone for ages tbh
I absolutely hate these kind of offside calls.
Clear advantage. Practically cherry picking
Fuck the speed of the decision. The fact that's given is offside is a joke. VAR just sucks all the joy out of the game.
I feel like this kind of precision ruins the spirit of the game a bit.
Agreed. The rule wasn't built for this kind of shit. Needs some kind of "umpires call" thing.
This has gotten ridiculous to the point we no longer cheer when a goal is made, but are watching the ref instead. To put it in perspective, if it wasn’t for own goals and VAR, we had better numbers now than France or Portugal. Instead we are low hanging fruits.
Offside is offside. I’d rather trust technology over linesmen, and as long as it’s fast, which it was, I don’t see any problems. I wouldn’t disagree with allowing for a thicker line that allows for more leniency, though.
If you’re happy with this application of technology, you don’t actually like football.
Unpopular opinion: I prefer football with mistakes, unfair results and instant emotions over VAR, razor thin decisions and tons of disallowed goals
Yeh stuff like this not being counted as a goal was way better: https://images.app.goo.gl/8iF3axFR64UJkvKk8
I don’t mind mistakes, I mind bias. Automated offside remove the bias option so I’m all for it.
Lukaku might actually be cursed
If the VAR existed at the time of Inzaghi, half of his goals would have been disallowed
I wonder what is the speed of these cameras for them to be able to bring down margin of error to this fine of a level. At top speed, around 38km/h, the camera would have to record at about a 1000fps to bring down the margin of error to about 1cm. Last I checked, the VAR cameras were at 250fps, which means 4cm error at top speed, which could make the difference between onside and offside here. (Obviously, not that lukaku was running that fast, but still a good amount of margin of error.)
"The new technology uses 12 dedicated tracking cameras mounted underneath the roof of the stadium to track the ball and up to 29 data points of each individual player, 50 times per second, calculating their exact position on the pitch." [source](https://inside.fifa.com/technical/football-technology/football-technologies-and-innovations-at-the-fifa-world-cup-2022/semi-automated-offside-technology) On top off that it's fed through some AI to get a 3D sim, so margin for error has to be more than a toe to be honest.
The referees see Lukaku scoring a goal and immediately disqualify it. Belgium vs France Final 1-0 Lukaku scores ‘37 disallowed goal VAR 1-0 Lukaku Scores ‘72 disallowed goal VAR off-side 1-0 Lukaku scores ‘89 disallowed goal VAR 0-0 FT+ET. France wins via penalty. Mbappé shot on target 7.
I don't see what all the complaints are about. He's offside plain and simple. If you let him be 1cm offside, why not let him be 2cm? 3cm? 1m?
Bro it’s like an inch if that
Quit bragging you
That's what she said.