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Southgate Special promo. Just 3 different Kalvin Philips, all 99 everything but different pictures, same positions.
Then the rest of the England squad all at CM but just 50 rated across the board, even Bellingham and Rice.
A vibes coach would be what they need. This coach is trying a system but is so inept he doesn't understand what he's trying to do lol.
If they had a coach that just told the creative players to do them they'd be so much better ll
Considering a core of the England squad play under the best managers in the league with a similar wavelength of set up I've got no doubts if they were left on their own they'd genuinely play better than under Southgate.
I had the idea that you bring in ben white and rico lewis and and play a full City/Arsenal team + Kane and Bellingham and just tell them to play like man city or arsenal. I'm counting Palmer too because he knows City very well. of course I might be biased as an Arsenal fan but I think it could do pretty well.
And factor in xG only counts shots, so relative to other games, 16 bad shots that felt like nothing is much higher xG than the same game and situations but going for the right pass or dribble.
I don't think disallowed goals count in the xG statistic, because a disallowed goal scored from an offside position technically has 0 xG because it was disallowed (unless VAR fucks up).
That is simply due to the fact that no matter how often you score from a known offside position, the goal will never count and thus you can't expect any goals to stand from these situations. The same goes for any other kind of goal or even a normal shot that's been called off due to offside, a foul or a handball in the buildup.
Yeah, just noticed that three different websites I visited had three different xG values. And when I went to UEFA's website, they didn't put up any official stat for it.
that's because we've overperformed our xG by a lot in the first 2 games.
After matchday 2 our G-xG was +3.6. The next best teams are Albania and Romania with +1 each. Afterwards England, Slovakia and Switzerland with +0.6 each.
In other words, we overperformed our xG about as much as the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th most overperfoming teams did *put together* (+3.8).
(but I assume our xG-G suffered after todays match)
Yeah, your only one was an own goal so that’s pretty shocking underperformance. Like most I had France as one of a few favorites but so far it’s been much less impressive than I expected.
They do, because Southgate has still done a better job than most England managers, but that doesn’t take away the fact he’s tactically what is called a terrorist
Has Southgate done a better job than other managers? Or has he just been gifted a way better squad. I think if anyone else was managing the past few years we would have a Euros win, and a world cup final appearance.
really? We are talking about the England who didn't qualify in 08 at the peak of their golden generation. Is the current squad really so much better than that one?
Edit: Tail end is probably more fitting than peak
it’s not underperforming history, it’s underperforming the ability of the squad.
A well managed England team could and should be putting on the sorts of performances we’ve seen from Germany and Spain.
So like it always is? England has always had the players, but couldn't put together a team. The fact that cliques and social isolation isn't even talked about, shows how far England has come since 2016.
yeah I think you’re spot on. been really fantastic as England manager, got the players to love England duty and become a unified squad and had fans singing from the same hymn sheet.
but as he’s basically insinuated, if he can’t win with this squad it’s time for a change.
at the very least he's managed to get rid of the toxicity in the England team, which judging by the results achieved despite his terrible tactics has clearly massively improved England as a team. hopefully we get a good manager after him that can take the non-toxic squad and win a tournament with it.
I think the toxicity is back given the team is struggling, press are jumping on individuals and people are starting to finger point.
He’s overstayed his welcome imo
I think Southgate deserves some credit for the atmosphere in the squad, but I do think it's partly just the trend of the Premier League over the last decade.
In the 00s you got the sense that the rivalries were much fiercer and the players genuinely disliked each other. The mind games have flipped; the consensus now is that being negative just gives the opposition more motivation and everyone just tries to kill them with kindness.
I reckon so, they just don't look it due to the management. Kane, Bellingham, Saka, Rice, Foden they're all dominating their respective leagues (individually of course, some of their teams have slightly let them down). And yet Southgate has managed to screw up and use them all wrong. I'm not saying I can do it better, I'm fairly new to football (a couple seasons so probs recency bias too), and I'm not a professional manager. I'm just saying there has got to be better options.
And Beckham, Scholes, Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard, Cole and Ferdinand didn't dominate their leagues?
England has always had the talent. But at previous tournaments the level of management needed was litterally at "The players refuse to talk to each other."
Forming cliques, refusing to sit next to each other. That sort of thing.
England management is not really about tactics. Or at least it was not, until now.
It's not the quality of the manager. Capello was regarded as one of the best coaches in the world at the time of hiring. IIRC England head coach is the best paid international coach.
> And yet Southgate has managed to screw up and use them all wrong.
He hasn’t though. Aside from Foden, all of the above names have frequently looked excellent for England, and have consistently been our best players.
This tournament has not started well, but the idea that Southgate had managed to “screw up” Kane is just nonsense. The only one on that list to underperform for England is Foden. If you want to blame Southgate for that, fair enough, but the others have played very well and very consistently for England.
He can use them right, he has his flashes of brilliance. But if he's gonna park the bus against Serbia and Denmark that is unacceptable. Teams like France and Spain and Germany will not let that happen, they won't just equalise. They will break us down and destroy us.
He's been gifted far better tournament draws, not better squads. If England had the same luck of the draws for 2018/2021 as they did in the 80's-00's, they'd have a 2018 Ro16 exit and maybe a quarters/maybe semi's exit.
Also been gifted way kinder runs, england from 2002-2006 may have got knocked out earlier but twice were on pens to a good Portugal team and the other was to a cracked Brazil
> Has Southgate done a better job than other managers? Or has he just been gifted a way better squad.
The Sven squads from 2002 - 2006 were much better than our current squad, particularly defensively, and at CM.
Gareth has a better squad available to him than the Capello / Hodgson years, which were often dire, but it's probably on par with our team with Hoddle and Venables in the late 90s in terms of overall talent. Some great, brilliant players, but some big gaps.
Seaman was on the way out, but he was still starting for an excellent Arsenal team (when fit - he had some injuries that season), and was with them for another year after 2002. He was excellent against Argentina too, so he wasn’t completely washed, though obviously made a massive error against Brazil.
I’d forgotten Neville was injured for the tournament, Mills and Sinclair definitely mediocre. McManaman should have gone though, no idea why Sven didn’t pick him. I think Joe Cole was in the squad too, who was better than Sinclair and didn’t play too. I remember Sinclair was a reserve that was sent home and then called back again after another injury (was it Kieron Dyer maybe?) I have no idea why he ended up playing as much as he did that year.
I wouldn’t agree on Butt though - he’d start for us now, and was our best player in 2002, to say nothing of the other options we had in midfield then; Scholes, Gerrard (injured for the tournament), Lampard (not selected despite a great year with Chelsea), Hargreaves were all excellent options.
Ferdinand, Campbell and Cole is a brilliant 3/4 of a back 4, we had Beckham recovering from his metatarsal injury, but always played well for England, and Owen who won the Balon D’or in 2001. I think it was an excellent group of players available to us.
France didn’t make it out of the groups in 2002, and Italy lost in the round of 16. In 2004, Italy didn’t make it out of the groups, and France lost to Greece in the quarterfinals. For 2/3s of the tournaments Sven managed, both of those teams massively underperformed.
They both had a great 2006 tournament, obviously - but they were poor in the two tournaments before that.
He's done well in aleiviating the 'Golden generation' problems of players not letting club allegiances go while on international duty which is really what held them back.
But yeah under Southgate I think if you look at tournament runs we finish about at the level of the players available to us, but a lot of that has been due to favourable draws, on a game by game basis we underperform massively.
Historically? Only Ramsey (WC in '66) was better. And it was in big part due to heavily favorable refereeing. After '66 he had generally worse result than Southgate after excluding for him any chosen tournament to balance things out. 4th in WC 2018 is (ex equo) 2nd best result in WC. 5-8 in 2022 losing to France is 4th best. 2nd in Euro is by far best result in Euro.
Add to it that he got NT that just lost in Euro 2016 with Iceland and Southgate has unironically strong case for being GOAT coach for England.
The thing is, Southgate never won a game in a tournament against the strongest teams. In 2018 England had the easiest path to the final, but lost to Croatia and Belgium, in 2022 they’ve lost to the first big team (France), but ngl England played well that game. We can argue that in 2021 England won against Croatia and Germany, but I honestly wouldn’t place those 2 as favorites to win the tournament back then
In 2021 Germany was seen as at least stronger team than Italy so I would count them. And of course Croatia definietly do count as strong team: it was team in between 2 WC medals. If it's not a strong team than list of strong team playing in Euro for this period would be rather short: "maybe France".
I can count Croatia, but not Germany at that time. If you say Croatia is good because they won WC medals before and after the Euros, we should use that logic for Germany, and let’s be honest they just weren’t the team they usually are
I'm sure there's some fans of PL clubs out there hoping he stays in the England job as long as possible because the moment he leaves, their clubs are going to be in a real danger. Nobody wants their club to be the unlucky draw...
They did before the tournament started, which is already bad enough
That’s what happens when all you look for is “well England got this far in X tournament” instead of looking at how the team actually plays, which is like dogshit most of the time
There are many, many of them in the England national team sub. The prevailing opinion (at least from most upvoted comments) there seems to be along the lines of “Southgate completely turned around a dire squad when he took over and way overachieved with his results. [points to the 2000’s golden generation].
I share that sentiment generally but I really think it's time to move on after this tournament. There is clearly stagnation at play now. What happened against Denmark is what happened against Italy 2021 and what happened against Croatia 2018. We've hit a barrier clearly.
I was all they way up until this tournament. He's our best performing manager in my lifetime, but the lack of tactical progress and the impending doom feeling that I get knowing that there's no way we can win with these players doing these old ass tactics makes me realise he's gotta go. A big team will figure us out in five minutes and we'll be 'powerless' to stop it in Southgate's eyes. Next manager might be as bad as Hodgson or McClaren, but at least it will be different.
What even is this comment? They suffered one goal the entire knockout stage. They won by defending well.
Terrible tournament because YOU lost. Pathetic.
Hopefully the reaction to the Denmark game was the tipping point. I can't remember Lineker, Shearer etc. ever being as critical of Southgate's England as they were on Thursday. Surely, *surely*, Southgate has to know by now that the way we're playing isn't good enough, that it won't get us anywhere near winning this tournament.
He won’t get sacked during the tournament. If/when we crash out, whether respectably or shamefully it’s most likely his last tournament and he said as much. Even if we manage to pull of a win that’ll probably be it.
So if he doesn’t resign it will be leaving by mutual consent rather than sacking id imaging.
Would love to see the numbers for conversion of shots in comparison to other tournaments. While this does not seem like a low-scoring tournament it feels like there are a crazy amount of goal scoring opportunities in comparison to actual goals. Maybe the amount of goals taken back because of VAR also adds to that feeling. Or is this just recency bias with games like the Belgium one right now?
Yes, that's why I used the word "feeling". It adds to the subjective perception, while not changing any stats. Was just trying to rationalise a silly little observation after the Belgium game. Probably, the shot conversion stats are perfectly in line with other tournaments and I am just making stuff up due to misperception. That's why I said I would love to see the numbers, in the first place.
These "World Class" attackers who won shite like "PL player of the year" and "La Liga player of the year", as if those actually exist, they are fully padlocked and chained unless the great Sir Kalvin can return and free them. No other man could do it.
Seeing our group and all the 1's on every stat across the board makes me realise that we've got the most boring group. Sir Kalvin would have sorted it out.
the brexit footy memes write themselves
but hey i would say pitiful self-sabatoge perfectly describes the display ive seen from this england team so far
Poland played offensive football when having tough group. Poland defense is just bad because there were too many changes to player in the center (and polish defenders are just bad).
Why qualifiers matter right here. England squeaking through in the playoffs and they could be out right now. Instead they're through with a game to spare.
I'm not English but do support liverpool so watched their games as I know the players. It's maddening.
His squad selection was good except for leaving Graelish at home. I don't think he needed that many defenders and with how lopsided the left wing is he should've brought graelish.
Tacticwise Southgates the same as before or worse. He plays trent in midfield, good to try it out, but then he let's Kane drop deep into the att midfield position, foden keeps cutting in from the left wing, saka does make the odd run in behind but is too easily marked out of games. So why play Trent when he's got really only 1 player to pass too. Their left wing is basically absent. Their last game he brings on bowen, ese, and Watkins who all run in behind and makes space, but then takes off trent for Gallagher. Makes no sense.
That's my opinion.
As someone who has worked in analytics it angers me so much how much emphasis in footie people started putting on the xG stat.
It's a statistic that works extremely well for a sport like hockey where there is 30+ shots in the game and the goal is tiny with the goalie having a huge impact on whether a shot gets saved or not.
In footie every shot on the net if hit well enough is going to go in. There is also an extremely low volume of shots in general.
A wide open midfielder taking a shot outside of the box does not have a real life xG of 0.07. it's a great shot that if open most great midfielders are going to put away at a much higher rate than xG indicates (this tourney alone already had a dozen or so "once in a lifetime" goals if we go by xG).
Literally just shots on the net is a better indicator than xG. England has only 7 shots on target this whole tournament. Germany had 10 against Scotland alone.
I wish Wales and Northern Ireland had qualified. Then all of the the UK's xg combined could have been s bit crap for one team playing a single natch, rather than four teams playing eight matches.
Hell, throw Ireland in there too for a British Isles xg clusterfuckaganza.
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England didn’t have Kalvin Phillips guys.
None of the three teams did, tbf.
FC 24 should issue a special Kelvin Phillips card, everything 99.
Including BMI
Just a complete juggernaut
Jigglenaut.
That’s a new tank in War Thunder.
Southgate Special promo. Just 3 different Kalvin Philips, all 99 everything but different pictures, same positions. Then the rest of the England squad all at CM but just 50 rated across the board, even Bellingham and Rice.
What about Henderson
A Flashback Kalvin Philips card that has Henderson's image.
Guys only want one thing and it's Kalvin Phillips 🥵
That card may already exist. EA gives real footballers that play their game a maxed out card of themselves to use.
IIRC they stopped last year or this year. I could be wrong.
England is also not fit enough to press.
xKP
Sadly England lost they advantage in this tourney. They now in a 24 way tie with everyone else, now they gotta play fair.
Didn’t have Gareth Barry either
Prime Bazza would actually be pretty useful right now.
A deep-sitting defensive midfielder with strong distribution? Barry would be excellent.
And could also play left back 😅
If only they had Palmer too. Oh wait
Didn’t have a manager either.
You could put the England squad without a manager and they would themselves form a team and average 1+ xG per game
English Federation
England hasn't had a manger in 8 years and they've got by bizarrely well
but we have had a terrorist in charge
A Vibes and Friendliness Baron
A vibes coach would be what they need. This coach is trying a system but is so inept he doesn't understand what he's trying to do lol. If they had a coach that just told the creative players to do them they'd be so much better ll
Get Ranieri in and England would dilly ding their way to being Euro champions
The Pochettino method
Considering a core of the England squad play under the best managers in the league with a similar wavelength of set up I've got no doubts if they were left on their own they'd genuinely play better than under Southgate.
100%
I had the idea that you bring in ben white and rico lewis and and play a full City/Arsenal team + Kane and Bellingham and just tell them to play like man city or arsenal. I'm counting Palmer too because he knows City very well. of course I might be biased as an Arsenal fan but I think it could do pretty well.
Does someone have a list of the ones that created the most xG? Pretty sure Belgium will be there lol.
Croatia 5.1 Spain 4.0 Portugal 3.7 Belgium is at 8th with 3.5
I'm sorry but how the FUCK is our xG that god damn high? Alright, our finishing is a bit shit but 5.1 xG??? Bitch wherrrrr?
Didn't watch the game vs Albania, but against Spain that could have easily ended like 3-3.
Yeah they had 16 shots against Spain, one was a penalty too. Their xG was around 2.3 for that game
And factor in xG only counts shots, so relative to other games, 16 bad shots that felt like nothing is much higher xG than the same game and situations but going for the right pass or dribble.
Ohhh that’s interesting. Thanks.
2.68 v Albania 2.38 v Spain (=5.06) says fotmob
This is like Germany at the last world cup lol
I mean Croatia was fine but that is really surprising to me. I would have had Belgium at #1 but I guess discounted goals don’t, you know, count
Yea pretty sure the first disallowed goal, though the most obvious one, would have at least 0.95 xG.
I don't think disallowed goals count in the xG statistic, because a disallowed goal scored from an offside position technically has 0 xG because it was disallowed (unless VAR fucks up). That is simply due to the fact that no matter how often you score from a known offside position, the goal will never count and thus you can't expect any goals to stand from these situations. The same goes for any other kind of goal or even a normal shot that's been called off due to offside, a foul or a handball in the buildup.
Yea just saying that Belgium's xG would probably be first without the disallowed goals
Offsides don't count
🗣️🗣️🗣️🇭🇷🇭🇷🇭🇷👉🏻👑💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻✝✝✝ This EURO is ours
xG is what really shows who is the best, not those dumb goals, who even cares about that non important stat. We are xG champions!!!
Wow, poor croatians
Surprisingly there is no Germany in the top 3
yea, pretty surprising tbf considering they had 1 penalty and a few 100% chances (musiala in both games, gundogan vs hungary etc.)
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It very much depends on your xG model. There is no correct value for xG as it's a completely made up stat.
Yeah, just noticed that three different websites I visited had three different xG values. And when I went to UEFA's website, they didn't put up any official stat for it.
that's because we've overperformed our xG by a lot in the first 2 games. After matchday 2 our G-xG was +3.6. The next best teams are Albania and Romania with +1 each. Afterwards England, Slovakia and Switzerland with +0.6 each. In other words, we overperformed our xG about as much as the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th most overperfoming teams did *put together* (+3.8). (but I assume our xG-G suffered after todays match)
STOP THE COUNT
Offside goals count as 0 unfortunately
Disallowed goals aren't included in xG so we're probably not *that* high.
Time to create xCancelledGoals.
Ah yes, the Timo Werner stat.
Croatia also
Why would Belgium be high when most of their best situations were offsides or disallowed goals
If there wasn't bad luck, Lukaku would have none at all.
I would have thought Lukaku’s xg would be higher than most teams.
France is 5th overall with 3.56 XG. We've been god awful at finishing our chances
Yeah, your only one was an own goal so that’s pretty shocking underperformance. Like most I had France as one of a few favorites but so far it’s been much less impressive than I expected.
That's how we've always played under Deschamps though. Remember the cursed France-Denmark?
We don't concede a lot of chances and we can create enough chances. Solid defences usually go far in a tournament. So yes, we are the favorites.
Idk, would be nice to actually have a French player score
La Porte to score next match
Le Normand hat trick before Mbappé even score one
Griezmann vs Netherlands...
You're gonna fix it with us. We will provide perfect conditions for Mbappe to thrive in.
Yeah, but you have Dembele on your team. Also, Griezmann a mixture of highly unlucky and out of sorts.
For reference, Czechia created almost double England’s xG against Georgia, 3.45.
Mamardashvili was an animal.
Scotland scored two goals though, thanks to Mctominay and Mcrudiger!!!
Mcrudiger 😂😂 that finish was superb
We love Scotland so much as guests, that we even gifted them a goal :D
You can thank McSchär for that.
And even the Mctominay goal was kind of a Schär own goal. Sommer 100% collects that if he just leaves it
Fuckin hell England , they have 3 of the best scorers in Europe and this is what they have to show for it?
I don't think you're counting the scorers on the bench.
If the Southgate apologists needed more evidence as to how ass England are here it is.
i don’t think they exist lmfao
They do, because Southgate has still done a better job than most England managers, but that doesn’t take away the fact he’s tactically what is called a terrorist
Has Southgate done a better job than other managers? Or has he just been gifted a way better squad. I think if anyone else was managing the past few years we would have a Euros win, and a world cup final appearance.
really? We are talking about the England who didn't qualify in 08 at the peak of their golden generation. Is the current squad really so much better than that one? Edit: Tail end is probably more fitting than peak
it’s not underperforming history, it’s underperforming the ability of the squad. A well managed England team could and should be putting on the sorts of performances we’ve seen from Germany and Spain.
So like it always is? England has always had the players, but couldn't put together a team. The fact that cliques and social isolation isn't even talked about, shows how far England has come since 2016.
yeah I think you’re spot on. been really fantastic as England manager, got the players to love England duty and become a unified squad and had fans singing from the same hymn sheet. but as he’s basically insinuated, if he can’t win with this squad it’s time for a change.
at the very least he's managed to get rid of the toxicity in the England team, which judging by the results achieved despite his terrible tactics has clearly massively improved England as a team. hopefully we get a good manager after him that can take the non-toxic squad and win a tournament with it.
I think the toxicity is back given the team is struggling, press are jumping on individuals and people are starting to finger point. He’s overstayed his welcome imo
I think Southgate deserves some credit for the atmosphere in the squad, but I do think it's partly just the trend of the Premier League over the last decade. In the 00s you got the sense that the rivalries were much fiercer and the players genuinely disliked each other. The mind games have flipped; the consensus now is that being negative just gives the opposition more motivation and everyone just tries to kill them with kindness.
What peak of golden generation in 08? Scholes had retired from international football, Beckham was in MLS iirc, Owen was done, Neville was done too.
Maybe 04 was peak?
I reckon so, they just don't look it due to the management. Kane, Bellingham, Saka, Rice, Foden they're all dominating their respective leagues (individually of course, some of their teams have slightly let them down). And yet Southgate has managed to screw up and use them all wrong. I'm not saying I can do it better, I'm fairly new to football (a couple seasons so probs recency bias too), and I'm not a professional manager. I'm just saying there has got to be better options.
And Beckham, Scholes, Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard, Cole and Ferdinand didn't dominate their leagues? England has always had the talent. But at previous tournaments the level of management needed was litterally at "The players refuse to talk to each other." Forming cliques, refusing to sit next to each other. That sort of thing. England management is not really about tactics. Or at least it was not, until now.
Just cause England managers were massive piles of shit before, didn't mean I can't complain about normal piles of shit.
It's not the quality of the manager. Capello was regarded as one of the best coaches in the world at the time of hiring. IIRC England head coach is the best paid international coach.
Paying someone more doesn't make them better.
> And yet Southgate has managed to screw up and use them all wrong. He hasn’t though. Aside from Foden, all of the above names have frequently looked excellent for England, and have consistently been our best players. This tournament has not started well, but the idea that Southgate had managed to “screw up” Kane is just nonsense. The only one on that list to underperform for England is Foden. If you want to blame Southgate for that, fair enough, but the others have played very well and very consistently for England.
He can use them right, he has his flashes of brilliance. But if he's gonna park the bus against Serbia and Denmark that is unacceptable. Teams like France and Spain and Germany will not let that happen, they won't just equalise. They will break us down and destroy us.
The current squad is a lot better compares to other teams than the golden generation squad.
They’ve had Lampard, Gerrard, Scholes, Beckham, Rooney, Campbell, Terry, Cole all in the same team
He's been gifted far better tournament draws, not better squads. If England had the same luck of the draws for 2018/2021 as they did in the 80's-00's, they'd have a 2018 Ro16 exit and maybe a quarters/maybe semi's exit.
Also been gifted way kinder runs, england from 2002-2006 may have got knocked out earlier but twice were on pens to a good Portugal team and the other was to a cracked Brazil
Yeah people argue for Southgate because he's had pretty deep runs but they've mostly lost against the first other big team they play
Not gifted. It’s because Southgate always, without fail, wins the qualifiers and wins the group.
> Has Southgate done a better job than other managers? Or has he just been gifted a way better squad. The Sven squads from 2002 - 2006 were much better than our current squad, particularly defensively, and at CM. Gareth has a better squad available to him than the Capello / Hodgson years, which were often dire, but it's probably on par with our team with Hoddle and Venables in the late 90s in terms of overall talent. Some great, brilliant players, but some big gaps.
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Seaman was on the way out, but he was still starting for an excellent Arsenal team (when fit - he had some injuries that season), and was with them for another year after 2002. He was excellent against Argentina too, so he wasn’t completely washed, though obviously made a massive error against Brazil. I’d forgotten Neville was injured for the tournament, Mills and Sinclair definitely mediocre. McManaman should have gone though, no idea why Sven didn’t pick him. I think Joe Cole was in the squad too, who was better than Sinclair and didn’t play too. I remember Sinclair was a reserve that was sent home and then called back again after another injury (was it Kieron Dyer maybe?) I have no idea why he ended up playing as much as he did that year. I wouldn’t agree on Butt though - he’d start for us now, and was our best player in 2002, to say nothing of the other options we had in midfield then; Scholes, Gerrard (injured for the tournament), Lampard (not selected despite a great year with Chelsea), Hargreaves were all excellent options. Ferdinand, Campbell and Cole is a brilliant 3/4 of a back 4, we had Beckham recovering from his metatarsal injury, but always played well for England, and Owen who won the Balon D’or in 2001. I think it was an excellent group of players available to us.
In 2002-2006 italy, france also had their greatest squad ever, this england squad is better compares to other contenders than the 2002-2006 teams
France didn’t make it out of the groups in 2002, and Italy lost in the round of 16. In 2004, Italy didn’t make it out of the groups, and France lost to Greece in the quarterfinals. For 2/3s of the tournaments Sven managed, both of those teams massively underperformed. They both had a great 2006 tournament, obviously - but they were poor in the two tournaments before that.
He's done well in aleiviating the 'Golden generation' problems of players not letting club allegiances go while on international duty which is really what held them back. But yeah under Southgate I think if you look at tournament runs we finish about at the level of the players available to us, but a lot of that has been due to favourable draws, on a game by game basis we underperform massively.
Historically? Only Ramsey (WC in '66) was better. And it was in big part due to heavily favorable refereeing. After '66 he had generally worse result than Southgate after excluding for him any chosen tournament to balance things out. 4th in WC 2018 is (ex equo) 2nd best result in WC. 5-8 in 2022 losing to France is 4th best. 2nd in Euro is by far best result in Euro. Add to it that he got NT that just lost in Euro 2016 with Iceland and Southgate has unironically strong case for being GOAT coach for England.
The thing is, Southgate never won a game in a tournament against the strongest teams. In 2018 England had the easiest path to the final, but lost to Croatia and Belgium, in 2022 they’ve lost to the first big team (France), but ngl England played well that game. We can argue that in 2021 England won against Croatia and Germany, but I honestly wouldn’t place those 2 as favorites to win the tournament back then
In 2021 Germany was seen as at least stronger team than Italy so I would count them. And of course Croatia definietly do count as strong team: it was team in between 2 WC medals. If it's not a strong team than list of strong team playing in Euro for this period would be rather short: "maybe France".
I can count Croatia, but not Germany at that time. If you say Croatia is good because they won WC medals before and after the Euros, we should use that logic for Germany, and let’s be honest they just weren’t the team they usually are
England in 1970 was much better than any of the tournaments managed by Southgate.
tbh as long as he keeps winning/not losing I don't give a shit how ugly the football is, I'll complain when we get knocked out.
He's won 0 trophies with a squad that should by all rights have at least one
I'm sure there's some fans of PL clubs out there hoping he stays in the England job as long as possible because the moment he leaves, their clubs are going to be in a real danger. Nobody wants their club to be the unlucky draw...
They did before the tournament started, which is already bad enough That’s what happens when all you look for is “well England got this far in X tournament” instead of looking at how the team actually plays, which is like dogshit most of the time
There are many, many of them in the England national team sub. The prevailing opinion (at least from most upvoted comments) there seems to be along the lines of “Southgate completely turned around a dire squad when he took over and way overachieved with his results. [points to the 2000’s golden generation].
I share that sentiment generally but I really think it's time to move on after this tournament. There is clearly stagnation at play now. What happened against Denmark is what happened against Italy 2021 and what happened against Croatia 2018. We've hit a barrier clearly.
Trust me, they do.
tbf Englands opponent is also there
They don't have a Jude Bellingham or Harry Kane
I was all they way up until this tournament. He's our best performing manager in my lifetime, but the lack of tactical progress and the impending doom feeling that I get knowing that there's no way we can win with these players doing these old ass tactics makes me realise he's gotta go. A big team will figure us out in five minutes and we'll be 'powerless' to stop it in Southgate's eyes. Next manager might be as bad as Hodgson or McClaren, but at least it will be different.
What’s the lowest ever average XG for tournament winners? Asking for a friend 😛
That's got to be Greece. They won with 1 or 2 half chances per game.
who needs xG if you score all your chances and Nikopolidis is in the form of his life
I would say Italy 1968.
Yeah, good shout. They’re the template 😂
Penalties
Portugal will be low. They were so poor 2016. Terrible tournmant
What even is this comment? They suffered one goal the entire knockout stage. They won by defending well. Terrible tournament because YOU lost. Pathetic.
Hopefully the reaction to the Denmark game was the tipping point. I can't remember Lineker, Shearer etc. ever being as critical of Southgate's England as they were on Thursday. Surely, *surely*, Southgate has to know by now that the way we're playing isn't good enough, that it won't get us anywhere near winning this tournament.
That they're actually criticising him by name does hint to me that the probability of him getting sacked in the next N days is more than (say) 10%.
Absolutely no shot. I know that it's mathematically impossible, but the chance is less than 0%
He won’t get sacked during the tournament. If/when we crash out, whether respectably or shamefully it’s most likely his last tournament and he said as much. Even if we manage to pull of a win that’ll probably be it. So if he doesn’t resign it will be leaving by mutual consent rather than sacking id imaging.
Would love to see the numbers for conversion of shots in comparison to other tournaments. While this does not seem like a low-scoring tournament it feels like there are a crazy amount of goal scoring opportunities in comparison to actual goals. Maybe the amount of goals taken back because of VAR also adds to that feeling. Or is this just recency bias with games like the Belgium one right now?
The disallowed/offside goals are not even counted into the xG or shot-conversion stats
Yes, that's why I used the word "feeling". It adds to the subjective perception, while not changing any stats. Was just trying to rationalise a silly little observation after the Belgium game. Probably, the shot conversion stats are perfectly in line with other tournaments and I am just making stuff up due to misperception. That's why I said I would love to see the numbers, in the first place.
swear to god is Croatia first in this?
we cant score and thats the difference
Actually, we are the first in xG.
Croatia is first, followed by Spain and Germany.
So Great Britain has more xG than Serbia
These "World Class" attackers who won shite like "PL player of the year" and "La Liga player of the year", as if those actually exist, they are fully padlocked and chained unless the great Sir Kalvin can return and free them. No other man could do it. Seeing our group and all the 1's on every stat across the board makes me realise that we've got the most boring group. Sir Kalvin would have sorted it out.
With arguably the best attacking players as well, that's just horrendous
At least now the English and Scottish can finally agree on something
We are putrid
Yeah, first game we created fuck all so this is basically all from last game. Hopefully can create a bit more against Hungary
Creating xG is useless if you don\`t score.
Can’t score if you don’t create xG
Didn't they score with an Xg of 0.01 against Germany?
English Catenaccio
Southgate is really making some of the best attackers in the game look like Sunday league players.
Honestly, embarrassing for England. All that firepower and they are on this list? Crazy.
the brexit footy memes write themselves but hey i would say pitiful self-sabatoge perfectly describes the display ive seen from this england team so far
If only Southgate managed Brexit..
But you don't understand, Southgate is really successful so it's all good.
Poland isn't in the bottom 3? Wut?
Poland played offensive football when having tough group. Poland defense is just bad because there were too many changes to player in the center (and polish defenders are just bad).
England - Serbia was such a bad game after the goal.
Don't let the British cook, cause they can't cook!
I mean it makes sense those are also arguably the 3 teams with the least quality players ;)
Honestly. How did we not beat those English park the bus merchants!?
lol It's never coming home 🤣🤣🤣
Why qualifiers matter right here. England squeaking through in the playoffs and they could be out right now. Instead they're through with a game to spare.
England aren't through yet
Could be worse, could be France. They haven't even scored a goal yet.
It’s coming home, not.
Group of dearth
We can win by drawing - Gareth Southgate
Wngland got the top scorers of bundsliga and la liga and second top goalscorer of the premier league And they can't score goals??? Explain this
I'm not English but do support liverpool so watched their games as I know the players. It's maddening. His squad selection was good except for leaving Graelish at home. I don't think he needed that many defenders and with how lopsided the left wing is he should've brought graelish. Tacticwise Southgates the same as before or worse. He plays trent in midfield, good to try it out, but then he let's Kane drop deep into the att midfield position, foden keeps cutting in from the left wing, saka does make the odd run in behind but is too easily marked out of games. So why play Trent when he's got really only 1 player to pass too. Their left wing is basically absent. Their last game he brings on bowen, ese, and Watkins who all run in behind and makes space, but then takes off trent for Gallagher. Makes no sense. That's my opinion.
Thats what happens when you dont have a replacement for big Kalvin
southgate is a clown
As someone who has worked in analytics it angers me so much how much emphasis in footie people started putting on the xG stat. It's a statistic that works extremely well for a sport like hockey where there is 30+ shots in the game and the goal is tiny with the goalie having a huge impact on whether a shot gets saved or not. In footie every shot on the net if hit well enough is going to go in. There is also an extremely low volume of shots in general. A wide open midfielder taking a shot outside of the box does not have a real life xG of 0.07. it's a great shot that if open most great midfielders are going to put away at a much higher rate than xG indicates (this tourney alone already had a dozen or so "once in a lifetime" goals if we go by xG). Literally just shots on the net is a better indicator than xG. England has only 7 shots on target this whole tournament. Germany had 10 against Scotland alone.
If only they had Kalvin Philips 😔
This is just proof of how negative we play.
Why did you write (xG) for each country after saying in the first sentence it's about xG?
Do you people not get bored of the same “England bad” shit? It’s almost as boring as watching them play at this point.
Yet the dipshit England fans will still defend this
Southgate Mourinho achievement challenge.
The classic headline where you always know "ok, I guess England/Man United is the top because otherwise that headline would not be at the top".
I wish Wales and Northern Ireland had qualified. Then all of the the UK's xg combined could have been s bit crap for one team playing a single natch, rather than four teams playing eight matches. Hell, throw Ireland in there too for a British Isles xg clusterfuckaganza.