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I felt this. When you know you're still conditioned to not like socialism from propaganda but you also know that it's bullshit and you probably need to do more research. At the same time surely north Korea isn't an amazing place to be... but then again race mixing was put in the same box as communism. So who tf knows?
It's not brainwashing it's literally using critical thinking. There is a reason why NK asks for food aid whenever it's negotiating with Russia or China and I am pro socialist but guys we've gotta step back and think at times. Can't wait for my ban ❤️.
A lot of folks here haven't studied materialism and it shows. Life for folks with adequate housing is better than those without it. The material conditions for those in the NK are better than the west in that regard, and they are closer to a socialist ideal because of it. If we in the west could take all of our "freedom" and "liberty" and use it to create houses for the poor, we would've done it already.
"It is difficult for me to imagine what "personal liberty" is enjoyed by an unemployed person, who goes about hungry, and cannot find employment.
Real liberty can exist only where exploitation has been abolished, where there is no oppression of some by others, where there is no unemployment and poverty, where a man is not haunted by the fear of being tomorrow deprived of work, of home and of bread. Only in such a society is real, and not paper, personal and every other liberty possible."
Joseph Stalin
But but but... That's not an optimal allocation of resources to maximize total surplus in the market!! If we let the free market determine housing price, then the market will determine the equilibrium price at which supply and demand intersect. Those that don't have a willingness to pay at the equilibrium price can opt to be homeless paupers. The free market gives people the FREEDOM to be homeless! And if 1% of the population wants to buy up 25% of the housing stock, driving up the price, that's just the market maximizing utility! Put that in your commie pipe and smoke it!
If we don't have middlemen extracting rents at every stage of production and consumption, who's going to innovate!? Workers!? They don't have the gumption and good old freedom-loving entrepreneurial spirit to think creatively. Labor is just an input, not thinking human beings that are members of a society!
So you see, it's better to have 2x the housing needed, even if 10% of the population is unhoused because the rich hoard it than it is to just target enough housing for everyone. Think of Pareto efficiency without thinking of the historical context that led to that specific Pareto efficiency that we take as given!!!
I think it's nice that all the comments everyone is complaining about have been sent to oblivion while the properly socialist ones have risen to the top. Perhaps the Reddit population-wide influence bots are acting a bit too fast.
I do think we must admit we can't say that for sure. There may be some difficulties of homelessness in rural areas or in cities, but these are not structural but instead due to non-structurally based issues like moving out without a home or divorce or difficulties due to a population growing without adequate housing and it needing to be built (I would guess this is actually staying with family past the time it's welcome or so).
But the fact that it's structurally resolved is amazing and should be celebrated
im always confused about socialists making statements like this about nk when the honest fact of the matter is, there’s really just not enough hard information that comes out of the country to be sure.
[I’m consistently amazed at the people who call themselves socialists repeating absolute imperialist propaganda](https://youtu.be/NTi5Ma1F7zM?si=VTIncxQuImmiQDfP).
North Korea is not perfect, nor is any country trying to bring about socialism under the current global conditions of western hegemony. We can certainly analyze the country like Marxists though and not like liberals. What’s interesting is that I hear more supposed socialists talking badly about the DPRK than they do South Korea. [Maybe you should learn a little more.](https://youtu.be/-xMm5tLDD7A?si=NLVxRdPcIHI2sScS)
Well I wouldn't say all that because half of the things claimed aren't physically possible or feasible. State mandated haircuts? People pushing trains by hands?
How on earth would we know? There’s no free exchange of information across its borders. It’s either state-run paradise or escapee horror stories with seldom any inbetween. Jfc
I’ve been bowling in North Korea, also to a pub. Many of the locals had phones, cars etc in Pyongyang.
Obviously there is extreme poverty and that was only a snapshot, but the propaganda spread by the West is by no means the absolute truth.
I’m not going to pretend that North Korea is a haven or anything but it’s clear that all of the propaganda about the place has worked incredibly well. Even this sub is infested with people who have bought capitalist countries lies about it.
Just one silly example, but from time to time the West spreads that the Better Korean government mandates a certain hair cut for the entire population on pain of execution. [Which is, obviously, a bizarre lie.](https://youtu.be/2BO83Ig-E8E?si=zRzTW2lS-bCth5k6)
Here's a quick example. North Korea reported that they found a cave that matches with a Korean myth. A historical (or maybe mythologically historical) figure met a kirin (mythological animal) there. How did it get reported in western media? "North Korea has found unicorns".
I guess not. Also, I think I'm in the wrong sub. I kinda thought socialism also stands for human rights. I strongly believe that people should get what they need, health care should be free and not for profit, as well as education, and capitalism should be dismantled. But, I'll never support this.
Given that North Korea has *zero control* over what people say about it beyond its borders, they definitely don’t filter out/get rid of anything negative about their country
It's ridiculous to think North Korea is as bad as the US has made it out to be. There are several documentaries going over life in N Korea, and it's hard for so many, but can be tolerable.
Should it be emulated? No of course not, but being forever shown as how it is in the US keeps those people in terrible conditions, conditions that are the result of US anti-communist aggression and a near genocide during the Korean War by the US.
To think that 60+ years of America's foreign policy decisions on North Korea is going to do anything but result in continued isolation, starving citizens, increasing their own military capacity in case of more US provoked war (which has nearly happened a few times since the armistice), and alliances with other western apposed states, is what is utterly ridiculous.
I recommend giving the Blowback podcast a listen. Season 3 is on North Korea and it is quite eye opening, and most things from there can be confirmed through a moderate amount of self research through google.
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I'm probably gonna get banned for saying this. I believe I am more left than most communists. Look into Iain Banks. That's what I believe in.
That said.
I'm from a former communist country modeled after North Korea. The thing about the free houses is they give you one after 10-15 years of wait time. A car was 5-10. Even a fridge was 5. And it wasn't really yours cause you paid rent. Albeit a really insignificant amount.
As a result, my country has the highest home ownership in Europe and people actually liked communism and still do. We had to be forced to kill Ceausescu by the Russian-leaning faction funny enough.
And you'te not allowed to leave the country either which to me is the worst thing.
Just my 2 cents.
>I believe I am more left than most communists. Look into Iain Banks. That's what I believe in.
"A **science fiction writer**. That's what I believe in." - person who claims to be a super duper very serious leftists who is more left than most communists.
Move away Marxist thinkers, theorists, revolutionaries, organizers, movement leaders, academics, activists of any sort etc.. **Science fiction**, that's where the real socialist ideas lie!
And I love your examples of this mythical (fictional? Science fiction again?) country, that nobody can confirm or deny since it's a nebulous unnamed country that just so happens to be very conveniently "modeled after North Korea".
Lots of theorists write fiction to incorporate allegories, metaphor, or commentary on real issues. Is it really so difficult to imagine a critically acclaimed and awarded author might have other interests they could apply their intellect to?
I never said I did? Yeah, things aren't great because of sanctions and being isolated from the world economy. But people don't get gunned down by anti-aircraft guns and eaten by packs of starving dogs for looking at a portrait of Kim the wrong way. It's wild what some of y'all believe.
There has been movement of people from North Korea to China and Russia as well as many other countries across Asia and Africa, the only reason you don’t hear about it as often is because western countries almost never issue visas to North Korean citizens and the DPRK passport is an isolated and heavily discriminated against passport across most of the west.
Did you know that the UN made it illegal to pay any North Korean resident anywhere in the world if that North Korean doesn't claim to be a defector? And before that working abroad and living abroad were much more common?
Hundreds of thousands of DPRK citizens leave the country to work in other countries every year. Travel between the DPRK and China is also a very regular thing. Maybe not as much as it used to be since COVID, but it's still a normal occurrence. Again, y'all need to read some books and stop listening to Radio Free Asia.
Find a reputable source of people emigrating from North Korea, and it still does not prove that it’s somewhere with good living conditions. But if you actually think North Korea has good, enviable living conditions then maybe you are too untrusting.
Why do you keep putting words in my mouth? I said it wasn't a comic book villain and that, yes, things aren't great there. And it's due to economic sanctions and embargoes, and also the complete devastation of their country during the Korean war. Collapse of the USSR and the ensuing famine due to massive flooding around the 2000's didn't help either. And the country was practically on their own through that entire time. At what point did I say the living conditions were good and enviable? Things are getting BETTER, but it's still not great.
They do have voting. It's a very similar system to Cuba's, actually. They've had international observers for the elections for quite some time now. There was a British journalist who observed the elections on behalf of BBC in 2014 I believe, and they ended up firing him because he refused to write a story lying about the elections and what he saw. I don't remember the guy's name unfortunately. Basically they have local people's committees where the local neighborhoods talk about issues and vote on some local policies, and this is also where they nominate a candidate to run in the district elections, which in turn go on to national elections in the Supreme People's Assembly if the people vote them through. Which is where the whole "one candidate" thing comes from (and this is the same for Cuba, mostly). It's one candidate because the people in those local committees have already agreed on the candidate, and the vote is a more of a safeguard to make sure that everyone is indeed satisfied with the candidate chosen. If not, back to square one. Representatives in the Supreme People's Assembly do not get paid for their position and have no special privileges compared to other citizens. All hold regular jobs outside of being a representative, and about 1/3 of the assembly is replaced with new representatives that are voted in each election cycle. The head of the SPA, generally speaking, has the most power in the country. The role of the Kim's is more ceremonial than anything, and their positions have become increasingly decentralized over the years and with the deaths of each member. Again, please read something about these places before you go and start repeating propaganda.
Waiting for the day y'all realize there's a difference between saying a place isn't literally the definition of evil and saying that nothing bad ever happens there and it's a utopia.
"A reminder about the events that put him under arrest in the first place:
The international hotel that he was staying at contains one or more floors that belong exclusively to the military/state and are totally off limits to civilians and especially foreign civilians. Nonetheless, Otto, in the middle of the night, deliberately went to one of these off limits floors (and he had been told multiple times and made well aware that these floors were off limits), functionally "broke in" and stole and/or vandalized a North Korean propaganda poster -- which, to DPRK citizens is a rather significant offense.
Imagine for a moment if a North Korean, or a Russian, for example, had been staying in a Washington hotel, but in the middle of the night, snuck into the capital building and stole the US Constitution (after all its just a piece of paper, like the Korean poster). Do you think the US or the media would have any sympathy or forgiveness for whatever iteration of "its just a prank bro" that the Korean/Russian would utter in his defence?
Moreover, there were no signs of torture.
https://www.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/a9sgvk/on_the_otto_warmbier_case/
https://nypost.com/2017/09/26/coroners-report-for-otto-warmbier-shows-no-signs-of-torture/
https://www.reddit.com/r/communism101/comments/awuok8/with_all_of_the_news_about_north_korea_going/"
It's very likely that he got sick while in prison (living conditions aren't great and all that), and they simply didn't have the medical equipment or capability to care for him while he was in a coma. Very hard to get most things in the DPRK because of the extremely extensive sanctions and embargoes, *especially* medical equipment since most of it is banned from being exported to the DPRK under the pretense that it can be disassembled and certain parts can somehow be used for producing weapons.
I wasn't necessarily saying this to make commentary that western nations misrepresent North Korea or that north Korea is secretly hospitable to westerners not named Dennis Rodman. But, when introducing concepts like realpolitik in these conversations, those dynamics change in those specific instances. Like I would be hard pressed to defend North Korea politicians or to criticize foreign governments from their perspective but it's much easier to advocate (and authentically criticize) foreign governments from the perspective of North Korean citizens.
One of the reasons why I'm an anarcho-syndicalist is because authoritarianism introduces negative externalities. Some nations are better than others with how they implement authoritarian policy and who are most impacted by those policies and why. I also recognize that prescribing anarcho-syndicalism on citizens would be authoritarian and totalitarian and I don't support that. However, I find it interesting that good (read: effective) public policy is often consistent with anarcho-syndicalist ideology (or rather, not inherently in opposition to it) and a transition there can happen without a revolution or violent conflict. I see it as an ideology whose efficacy is self-evident. It's the political equivalent of winning the lottery and then realizing you don't need to work anymore but on a massive scale.
> I mean, I like being able to not be shot for disliking my national leader.
Massive 'citation needed' moment.
Also, Cuba and North Korea are probably way more similar than you think. You've just been mentally conditioned to think otherwise because Cuba is far less negatively propagandised than North Korea.
Again, citation needed. It's not only important to be sure that what you're looking at isn't just straight propaganda (lies with no source or shit from radio free asia) but it's also important to have a full understanding of the history of the DPRK and what created the conditions they operate with today. North Korea's biggest problem is that it's a poor country under sanctions that keep it poor and any attempts to economically liberalize in service of development with things like special economic zones are met by more sanctions.
America holds massive military exercises at their border and their leaders openly label North Korea as part of the ''Axis of Evil'' alongside Iraq and Libya. Guess what happened to the latter two countries.
Lmao. North Korea develops nukes to deter outright invasion from NATO. They’re defensive, always have been and always will.
Always made me laugh. Why would a tiny country on the other side of the globe WANT to nuke us?! Why would they want to pick a fight? They don’t, they’re afraid we’re going to invade THEM.
I don't think defensive means threatening other nations with innocent civilians in the blast radius is called "defensive". And maybe, JUST maybe, if they didn't have a madman as their leader, we MIGHT not wanna fight them. Plus, an invasion of North Korea would be pointless and expensive- neither of which the capitalist system likes. Fighting an entire nation of fanatics is not fun, especially if they're in the mountainous parts of the country and all have prior military training.
“Maybe if they let US pick their leaders, they wouldn’t have a reason to be scared… living their lives!”
An invasion of NK would churn massive profits for the arms industry, what are you smoking? War is the main gig for money-making in capitalism. Infinite potential for sales.
Fighting an entire country of fanatics doesn’t sound fun… exactly why NK wouldn’t be the one to start anything…
You clearly still think along the same lines as the Department of Defense, which I would never recommend being your original information source when you’re talking about poor third world countries opposed to the US.
Do you support the nation of people or do you support the Ukrainian state? The same state that banned socialist and communist parties along with trade unions. It's one thing to stand with the average Ukrainian worker, and its another to claim to stand with the state that is in direct relations with NATO, and by all measures a NATO puppet.
[I stand with these Ukrainians for sure](https://youtu.be/2GOFSppKgrg?si=BMb0onyLglbzWsrs)
I for one am in support of Ukrainian people, the common people who went to jobs everyday, paid their rent, sent their children to school etc. I am also in support of common Russian people who were going to their regular jobs in an office and now are forced to fight a meaningless war. This is not a war of the proletariat, no war between countries ever has been. Its all just because some guy at the top wants his dick stroked.
I couldn't care less about the state. State doesn't matter to the proletariat, it only matters to the bourgeoisie. (I am of course simplifying it a bit)
No, I'm pretty sure they're saying the libs who go out of their way to defend the azov batallion and NATO. I'm almost certain they don't support the Russian invasion but it's also counter to socialism to be for the azov batallion or NATO.
What's with the strawman? The OP didn't say "SEE THIS IS SOCIALISM". What he did say is "North Korea works to ensure everyone has housing as opposed to the US where the homeless are not cared for."
Is there plenty of things to criticize the DPRK for? Absolutely, but if those criticisms are the only thing you can bother with then you aren't arguing in good faith.
So many racist ''socialists'' have come out of the woodwork to trash a poor country struggling under a genocidal blockade imposed by the United $nakes.
No, they're not a feudalistic monarchy
Literally this. Sad to see so many “leftists” immediately fall back into their old comfy preconceptions that their capitalist education oh so graciously gave them…
So instead of even lukewarm support to a poor, third world country under heavy sanctions and military embargo imposed by the strongest nations to grace history for trying its best under the conditions; westerners would rather fall back on the idea that the North Korean State is comically and ontologically evil.
The fact that democratic socialism is considered radical in the west shows how behind we are.
Jesus you’re in a socialist sub and you say this? To someone posting something about a socialist country under constant threat of nuclear invasion?
Read the room, man.
Nobodies idolizing it. You’re projecting your Americanism onto them/us/whoever it is you have been told to not support.
If Palestine gives away housing, good! If India gives housing, good! North Korea; a self identified socialist project gives away housing, it’s “be careful guys, some Americans might think we’re *not* blinded by preconceived ethnic and racial biases from the Cold War!”
Like why is there Social Democratic support for countries like Denmark and Sweden but not the actual poor, third world, socialist countries trying to defend themselves??? Make it make sense!
You are more concerned with the perceived idea of luring centrists and liberals to the left than you are actually studying socialist countries. Pretty damn embarrassing.
Here is the problem with your statement. You are projecting your criticisms of the country (it's leadership) onto the people themselves.
North Korea is NOT just it's leadership, it's a large population of normal people doing their best in life in the circumstances they exist in. If you don't want to defend that then you are not a socialist in any capacity.
Nope, but the fact they’re so poor and under constant threat of attack while still trying to offer their citizens cheaper housing, jobs, healthcare, education, and food shows a marked ideological difference between them and us.
Is that what they said? They're just pointing out that a very poor and isolated country has solved homelessness better than the richest country on earth
And yet more strawmanning. For people who are supposedly socialist there seems to be an awful lot of only caring about what capitalist propaganda sources have to say.
It feels like there are a bunch of Stalinists or Orthodox Trotskyists arguing it's a deformed workers state through implications. I've seen some other people arguing that it's feudal too, which I'd argue couldn't survive international competition. They are textbook State Capitalism.
Tony Cliff wrote a lot of great analysis of the USSR and how they are structured that I would recommend reading. If they were socialist (as is implied by someone posting this on a socialist subreddit) they would be democratic. You can't point at anything and call it socialist if it doesn't have democracy in the workplace.
Capitalism can benefit from giving people all kinds of things. It might benefit one country to increase unemployment or to provide housing. State Capitalism tends to need the state to control major industries in the country like housing so they wouldn't benefit by reducing any of their worker's productivity by forcing them onto the streets.
Don't defend morally reprehensible nations.
sure, but it seems like the figurehead of the state is a little bit more than just a figurehead. it has some democratic elements but also some not, and it seems to have more undemocratic elements than quite a few others, right ?
Go and actually educate yourself and stop looking at the world with what the western media tells you. The majority is imperialist/capitalist propaganda with a strong hatred towards left leaning countries, China, North Korea, Cuba etc. The world is a lot more different than what western propaganda tells you.
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i'm still too brainwashed to not hate this post i think, i'll come back later
I felt this. When you know you're still conditioned to not like socialism from propaganda but you also know that it's bullshit and you probably need to do more research. At the same time surely north Korea isn't an amazing place to be... but then again race mixing was put in the same box as communism. So who tf knows?
I definitely need to brush up on Karl Marx!
race mixing? can you explain?
Racists in the United States used to say that desegregation was communism it has no logical basis. It's called basic human decency.
It's not brainwashing it's literally using critical thinking. There is a reason why NK asks for food aid whenever it's negotiating with Russia or China and I am pro socialist but guys we've gotta step back and think at times. Can't wait for my ban ❤️.
A lot of folks here haven't studied materialism and it shows. Life for folks with adequate housing is better than those without it. The material conditions for those in the NK are better than the west in that regard, and they are closer to a socialist ideal because of it. If we in the west could take all of our "freedom" and "liberty" and use it to create houses for the poor, we would've done it already. "It is difficult for me to imagine what "personal liberty" is enjoyed by an unemployed person, who goes about hungry, and cannot find employment. Real liberty can exist only where exploitation has been abolished, where there is no oppression of some by others, where there is no unemployment and poverty, where a man is not haunted by the fear of being tomorrow deprived of work, of home and of bread. Only in such a society is real, and not paper, personal and every other liberty possible." Joseph Stalin
But but but... That's not an optimal allocation of resources to maximize total surplus in the market!! If we let the free market determine housing price, then the market will determine the equilibrium price at which supply and demand intersect. Those that don't have a willingness to pay at the equilibrium price can opt to be homeless paupers. The free market gives people the FREEDOM to be homeless! And if 1% of the population wants to buy up 25% of the housing stock, driving up the price, that's just the market maximizing utility! Put that in your commie pipe and smoke it! If we don't have middlemen extracting rents at every stage of production and consumption, who's going to innovate!? Workers!? They don't have the gumption and good old freedom-loving entrepreneurial spirit to think creatively. Labor is just an input, not thinking human beings that are members of a society! So you see, it's better to have 2x the housing needed, even if 10% of the population is unhoused because the rich hoard it than it is to just target enough housing for everyone. Think of Pareto efficiency without thinking of the historical context that led to that specific Pareto efficiency that we take as given!!!
I think it's nice that all the comments everyone is complaining about have been sent to oblivion while the properly socialist ones have risen to the top. Perhaps the Reddit population-wide influence bots are acting a bit too fast.
Theres still homeless in NK though right? Poverty and everything
>Theres still homeless in NK though right? No there aren't
I do think we must admit we can't say that for sure. There may be some difficulties of homelessness in rural areas or in cities, but these are not structural but instead due to non-structurally based issues like moving out without a home or divorce or difficulties due to a population growing without adequate housing and it needing to be built (I would guess this is actually staying with family past the time it's welcome or so). But the fact that it's structurally resolved is amazing and should be celebrated
There was a mass of homeless and poverty stricken childen in 1990?
That was thirty years ago when they suddenly lost their biggest trading partners
im always confused about socialists making statements like this about nk when the honest fact of the matter is, there’s really just not enough hard information that comes out of the country to be sure.
[I’m consistently amazed at the people who call themselves socialists repeating absolute imperialist propaganda](https://youtu.be/NTi5Ma1F7zM?si=VTIncxQuImmiQDfP). North Korea is not perfect, nor is any country trying to bring about socialism under the current global conditions of western hegemony. We can certainly analyze the country like Marxists though and not like liberals. What’s interesting is that I hear more supposed socialists talking badly about the DPRK than they do South Korea. [Maybe you should learn a little more.](https://youtu.be/-xMm5tLDD7A?si=NLVxRdPcIHI2sScS)
I was slipping back into the belief of maybe I'm too aggressively socialist. Thanks for this. I'm also learning about the Korean war.
Thank you, the South Korean puppet regime is just as bad as they claim the north to be.
Well I wouldn't say all that because half of the things claimed aren't physically possible or feasible. State mandated haircuts? People pushing trains by hands?
To them the north korean population hasn't seen a single calorie in 70 years
Nothing is a better lib magnet than offering even the most tepid acknowledge that the DPRK isn’t the cartoon villain it’s made out to be the US media.
How on earth would we know? There’s no free exchange of information across its borders. It’s either state-run paradise or escapee horror stories with seldom any inbetween. Jfc
I’ve been bowling in North Korea, also to a pub. Many of the locals had phones, cars etc in Pyongyang. Obviously there is extreme poverty and that was only a snapshot, but the propaganda spread by the West is by no means the absolute truth.
Their tourism experience is heavily state curated, right?
Definitely, but you are still in a city of 3 million. They can’t all be cardboard cut outs
If the North Korean state can Truman Show every single tourist, then honestly they just deserve the respect.
A socialist Malazan fan. Props.
I need to read that. Always heard great things.
genuine question: what propaganda spread by the west?
That isn’t really true, you can access all sorts of information about NK. Before Covid it wasn’t even that hard to travel there.
thank you
I’m not going to pretend that North Korea is a haven or anything but it’s clear that all of the propaganda about the place has worked incredibly well. Even this sub is infested with people who have bought capitalist countries lies about it.
Can you please elaborate on what those lies are? Serious question. Btw, I'm fully against capitalism as an economic system.
Just one silly example, but from time to time the West spreads that the Better Korean government mandates a certain hair cut for the entire population on pain of execution. [Which is, obviously, a bizarre lie.](https://youtu.be/2BO83Ig-E8E?si=zRzTW2lS-bCth5k6)
Here's a quick example. North Korea reported that they found a cave that matches with a Korean myth. A historical (or maybe mythologically historical) figure met a kirin (mythological animal) there. How did it get reported in western media? "North Korea has found unicorns".
I guess not. Also, I think I'm in the wrong sub. I kinda thought socialism also stands for human rights. I strongly believe that people should get what they need, health care should be free and not for profit, as well as education, and capitalism should be dismantled. But, I'll never support this.
I definitely need to read more about the DPRK
There are a lot of people on Twitter and youtube from there or people who went to the DPRK
surely the North Korean government doesn't filter out/get rid of negative opinions/footage/news
Given that North Korea has *zero control* over what people say about it beyond its borders, they definitely don’t filter out/get rid of anything negative about their country
How? You think Kim Jong Un is a twitter mod or smth?
Where can I get more pictures of these?
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It's ridiculous to think North Korea is as bad as the US has made it out to be. There are several documentaries going over life in N Korea, and it's hard for so many, but can be tolerable. Should it be emulated? No of course not, but being forever shown as how it is in the US keeps those people in terrible conditions, conditions that are the result of US anti-communist aggression and a near genocide during the Korean War by the US. To think that 60+ years of America's foreign policy decisions on North Korea is going to do anything but result in continued isolation, starving citizens, increasing their own military capacity in case of more US provoked war (which has nearly happened a few times since the armistice), and alliances with other western apposed states, is what is utterly ridiculous. I recommend giving the Blowback podcast a listen. Season 3 is on North Korea and it is quite eye opening, and most things from there can be confirmed through a moderate amount of self research through google.
>near genocide Nothing "near" about it, man. The US committed a full blown genocide against the Korean people.
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I'm probably gonna get banned for saying this. I believe I am more left than most communists. Look into Iain Banks. That's what I believe in. That said. I'm from a former communist country modeled after North Korea. The thing about the free houses is they give you one after 10-15 years of wait time. A car was 5-10. Even a fridge was 5. And it wasn't really yours cause you paid rent. Albeit a really insignificant amount. As a result, my country has the highest home ownership in Europe and people actually liked communism and still do. We had to be forced to kill Ceausescu by the Russian-leaning faction funny enough. And you'te not allowed to leave the country either which to me is the worst thing. Just my 2 cents.
>I believe I am more left than most communists. Look into Iain Banks. That's what I believe in. "A **science fiction writer**. That's what I believe in." - person who claims to be a super duper very serious leftists who is more left than most communists. Move away Marxist thinkers, theorists, revolutionaries, organizers, movement leaders, academics, activists of any sort etc.. **Science fiction**, that's where the real socialist ideas lie! And I love your examples of this mythical (fictional? Science fiction again?) country, that nobody can confirm or deny since it's a nebulous unnamed country that just so happens to be very conveniently "modeled after North Korea".
Pretty obvious they’re talking about Romania, isn’t it?
Yeah. I just let it vague cause I talk about the country too much on reddit.
A yes, that mythical country with that mythical person Ceausescu. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea%E2%80%93Romania_relations
Lots of theorists write fiction to incorporate allegories, metaphor, or commentary on real issues. Is it really so difficult to imagine a critically acclaimed and awarded author might have other interests they could apply their intellect to?
Post socialist Korea on the socialist subreddit to trigger the larpers
...sigh _puts on hazmat suit and sorts by controversial_
Comments are full of some lib ass comments. Y'all need to read some books and watch some documentaries. The DPRK isn't a comic book villain
But it sure as hell is not somewhere you’d want to idolize…
I never said I did? Yeah, things aren't great because of sanctions and being isolated from the world economy. But people don't get gunned down by anti-aircraft guns and eaten by packs of starving dogs for looking at a portrait of Kim the wrong way. It's wild what some of y'all believe.
The fact alone that no one emigrates from the country should be alarming itself, let alone every traveling outside of it.
There has been movement of people from North Korea to China and Russia as well as many other countries across Asia and Africa, the only reason you don’t hear about it as often is because western countries almost never issue visas to North Korean citizens and the DPRK passport is an isolated and heavily discriminated against passport across most of the west.
https://www.un.org/securitycouncil/s/res/2397-%282017%29
Did you know that the UN made it illegal to pay any North Korean resident anywhere in the world if that North Korean doesn't claim to be a defector? And before that working abroad and living abroad were much more common?
Hundreds of thousands of DPRK citizens leave the country to work in other countries every year. Travel between the DPRK and China is also a very regular thing. Maybe not as much as it used to be since COVID, but it's still a normal occurrence. Again, y'all need to read some books and stop listening to Radio Free Asia.
Find a reputable source of people emigrating from North Korea, and it still does not prove that it’s somewhere with good living conditions. But if you actually think North Korea has good, enviable living conditions then maybe you are too untrusting.
Why do you keep putting words in my mouth? I said it wasn't a comic book villain and that, yes, things aren't great there. And it's due to economic sanctions and embargoes, and also the complete devastation of their country during the Korean war. Collapse of the USSR and the ensuing famine due to massive flooding around the 2000's didn't help either. And the country was practically on their own through that entire time. At what point did I say the living conditions were good and enviable? Things are getting BETTER, but it's still not great.
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They do have voting. It's a very similar system to Cuba's, actually. They've had international observers for the elections for quite some time now. There was a British journalist who observed the elections on behalf of BBC in 2014 I believe, and they ended up firing him because he refused to write a story lying about the elections and what he saw. I don't remember the guy's name unfortunately. Basically they have local people's committees where the local neighborhoods talk about issues and vote on some local policies, and this is also where they nominate a candidate to run in the district elections, which in turn go on to national elections in the Supreme People's Assembly if the people vote them through. Which is where the whole "one candidate" thing comes from (and this is the same for Cuba, mostly). It's one candidate because the people in those local committees have already agreed on the candidate, and the vote is a more of a safeguard to make sure that everyone is indeed satisfied with the candidate chosen. If not, back to square one. Representatives in the Supreme People's Assembly do not get paid for their position and have no special privileges compared to other citizens. All hold regular jobs outside of being a representative, and about 1/3 of the assembly is replaced with new representatives that are voted in each election cycle. The head of the SPA, generally speaking, has the most power in the country. The role of the Kim's is more ceremonial than anything, and their positions have become increasingly decentralized over the years and with the deaths of each member. Again, please read something about these places before you go and start repeating propaganda.
This is great, thank you. Would you happen to have some good sources on how the elections work and the british journalist you mentioned?
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Waiting for the day y'all realize there's a difference between saying a place isn't literally the definition of evil and saying that nothing bad ever happens there and it's a utopia. "A reminder about the events that put him under arrest in the first place: The international hotel that he was staying at contains one or more floors that belong exclusively to the military/state and are totally off limits to civilians and especially foreign civilians. Nonetheless, Otto, in the middle of the night, deliberately went to one of these off limits floors (and he had been told multiple times and made well aware that these floors were off limits), functionally "broke in" and stole and/or vandalized a North Korean propaganda poster -- which, to DPRK citizens is a rather significant offense. Imagine for a moment if a North Korean, or a Russian, for example, had been staying in a Washington hotel, but in the middle of the night, snuck into the capital building and stole the US Constitution (after all its just a piece of paper, like the Korean poster). Do you think the US or the media would have any sympathy or forgiveness for whatever iteration of "its just a prank bro" that the Korean/Russian would utter in his defence? Moreover, there were no signs of torture. https://www.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/a9sgvk/on_the_otto_warmbier_case/ https://nypost.com/2017/09/26/coroners-report-for-otto-warmbier-shows-no-signs-of-torture/ https://www.reddit.com/r/communism101/comments/awuok8/with_all_of_the_news_about_north_korea_going/" It's very likely that he got sick while in prison (living conditions aren't great and all that), and they simply didn't have the medical equipment or capability to care for him while he was in a coma. Very hard to get most things in the DPRK because of the extremely extensive sanctions and embargoes, *especially* medical equipment since most of it is banned from being exported to the DPRK under the pretense that it can be disassembled and certain parts can somehow be used for producing weapons.
What country do you idolize?
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Buncha libs in here eating imperialist propaganda
I would be interested if some actual communists were given a chance to interview Un, especially to get his thoughts on ML or MLM theory.
Highly recommend reading Patriots, Traitors and Empires by Stephen Gowans if you'd like know more about the history of the DPRK.
concerned zonked murky command unique fearless follow disgusted doll lip *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
People that are conditioned to and appreciate American ways of life would hate it. Their kids wouldn’t mind though.
I wasn't necessarily saying this to make commentary that western nations misrepresent North Korea or that north Korea is secretly hospitable to westerners not named Dennis Rodman. But, when introducing concepts like realpolitik in these conversations, those dynamics change in those specific instances. Like I would be hard pressed to defend North Korea politicians or to criticize foreign governments from their perspective but it's much easier to advocate (and authentically criticize) foreign governments from the perspective of North Korean citizens. One of the reasons why I'm an anarcho-syndicalist is because authoritarianism introduces negative externalities. Some nations are better than others with how they implement authoritarian policy and who are most impacted by those policies and why. I also recognize that prescribing anarcho-syndicalism on citizens would be authoritarian and totalitarian and I don't support that. However, I find it interesting that good (read: effective) public policy is often consistent with anarcho-syndicalist ideology (or rather, not inherently in opposition to it) and a transition there can happen without a revolution or violent conflict. I see it as an ideology whose efficacy is self-evident. It's the political equivalent of winning the lottery and then realizing you don't need to work anymore but on a massive scale.
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“But freedom 🦅🦅🦅”
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There are people on Twitter from North korea and they are well
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Reddit doesn't exist in North Korea. I don't think any of them would want to talk to ignorant westerners on this fascist website anyways.
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Shut up, nobody gets shot for ''disliking'' their leader. They're not ''evil''.
> I mean, I like being able to not be shot for disliking my national leader. Massive 'citation needed' moment. Also, Cuba and North Korea are probably way more similar than you think. You've just been mentally conditioned to think otherwise because Cuba is far less negatively propagandised than North Korea.
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Again, citation needed. It's not only important to be sure that what you're looking at isn't just straight propaganda (lies with no source or shit from radio free asia) but it's also important to have a full understanding of the history of the DPRK and what created the conditions they operate with today. North Korea's biggest problem is that it's a poor country under sanctions that keep it poor and any attempts to economically liberalize in service of development with things like special economic zones are met by more sanctions.
I don't know, maybe get rid of the madman who's in charge and constantly threatens his neighbors with nuclear weapons?
America holds massive military exercises at their border and their leaders openly label North Korea as part of the ''Axis of Evil'' alongside Iraq and Libya. Guess what happened to the latter two countries.
Lmao. North Korea develops nukes to deter outright invasion from NATO. They’re defensive, always have been and always will. Always made me laugh. Why would a tiny country on the other side of the globe WANT to nuke us?! Why would they want to pick a fight? They don’t, they’re afraid we’re going to invade THEM.
I don't think defensive means threatening other nations with innocent civilians in the blast radius is called "defensive". And maybe, JUST maybe, if they didn't have a madman as their leader, we MIGHT not wanna fight them. Plus, an invasion of North Korea would be pointless and expensive- neither of which the capitalist system likes. Fighting an entire nation of fanatics is not fun, especially if they're in the mountainous parts of the country and all have prior military training.
“Maybe if they let US pick their leaders, they wouldn’t have a reason to be scared… living their lives!” An invasion of NK would churn massive profits for the arms industry, what are you smoking? War is the main gig for money-making in capitalism. Infinite potential for sales. Fighting an entire country of fanatics doesn’t sound fun… exactly why NK wouldn’t be the one to start anything… You clearly still think along the same lines as the Department of Defense, which I would never recommend being your original information source when you’re talking about poor third world countries opposed to the US.
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It wouldn't take long to finds Redditors getting thousands of upvotes for saying that ''Russian orcs'' need to be exterminated.
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Surely it's not a socialist position to defend Russia in the conflict, considering Russia is far from a communist/socialist country at this point?
I think it’s more about not supporting Ukraine and NATO than it is about supporting Russia (which as you said, is far from a socialist country)
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Do you support the nation of people or do you support the Ukrainian state? The same state that banned socialist and communist parties along with trade unions. It's one thing to stand with the average Ukrainian worker, and its another to claim to stand with the state that is in direct relations with NATO, and by all measures a NATO puppet. [I stand with these Ukrainians for sure](https://youtu.be/2GOFSppKgrg?si=BMb0onyLglbzWsrs)
I for one am in support of Ukrainian people, the common people who went to jobs everyday, paid their rent, sent their children to school etc. I am also in support of common Russian people who were going to their regular jobs in an office and now are forced to fight a meaningless war. This is not a war of the proletariat, no war between countries ever has been. Its all just because some guy at the top wants his dick stroked. I couldn't care less about the state. State doesn't matter to the proletariat, it only matters to the bourgeoisie. (I am of course simplifying it a bit)
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No, I'm pretty sure they're saying the libs who go out of their way to defend the azov batallion and NATO. I'm almost certain they don't support the Russian invasion but it's also counter to socialism to be for the azov batallion or NATO.
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What's with the strawman? The OP didn't say "SEE THIS IS SOCIALISM". What he did say is "North Korea works to ensure everyone has housing as opposed to the US where the homeless are not cared for." Is there plenty of things to criticize the DPRK for? Absolutely, but if those criticisms are the only thing you can bother with then you aren't arguing in good faith.
he didn't directly say this is socialism, but this reeks strongly of whataboutism and DPRK bootlicking
It does nothing of the kind, that's your bias and imagination at work.
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Racism moment
So many racist ''socialists'' have come out of the woodwork to trash a poor country struggling under a genocidal blockade imposed by the United $nakes. No, they're not a feudalistic monarchy
Literally this. Sad to see so many “leftists” immediately fall back into their old comfy preconceptions that their capitalist education oh so graciously gave them… So instead of even lukewarm support to a poor, third world country under heavy sanctions and military embargo imposed by the strongest nations to grace history for trying its best under the conditions; westerners would rather fall back on the idea that the North Korean State is comically and ontologically evil. The fact that democratic socialism is considered radical in the west shows how behind we are.
Sorry dude, I thought i was on a socialist sub, i wont talk about a socialist country again
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Jesus you’re in a socialist sub and you say this? To someone posting something about a socialist country under constant threat of nuclear invasion? Read the room, man.
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Nobodies idolizing it. You’re projecting your Americanism onto them/us/whoever it is you have been told to not support. If Palestine gives away housing, good! If India gives housing, good! North Korea; a self identified socialist project gives away housing, it’s “be careful guys, some Americans might think we’re *not* blinded by preconceived ethnic and racial biases from the Cold War!” Like why is there Social Democratic support for countries like Denmark and Sweden but not the actual poor, third world, socialist countries trying to defend themselves??? Make it make sense!
You are more concerned with the perceived idea of luring centrists and liberals to the left than you are actually studying socialist countries. Pretty damn embarrassing.
Spoken like someone that’s never read any socialist theory.
Why are so many people defending North Korea it’s something else
Because we know that the capitalist propaganda about the country isn't the entire picture.
Yes but it’s not worth defending
Here is the problem with your statement. You are projecting your criticisms of the country (it's leadership) onto the people themselves. North Korea is NOT just it's leadership, it's a large population of normal people doing their best in life in the circumstances they exist in. If you don't want to defend that then you are not a socialist in any capacity.
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I like the colours use for the buildings its cute
I guess the definition of socialism is quite different from person to person. lol
You really think that life in the DPRK is better than in the US just because of free housing?
Nope, but the fact they’re so poor and under constant threat of attack while still trying to offer their citizens cheaper housing, jobs, healthcare, education, and food shows a marked ideological difference between them and us.
If you're one of the 582,000 people homeless in the USA, yes, life would be better. Having a home is better than having none.
Is that what they said? They're just pointing out that a very poor and isolated country has solved homelessness better than the richest country on earth
And yet more strawmanning. For people who are supposedly socialist there seems to be an awful lot of only caring about what capitalist propaganda sources have to say.
It feels like there are a bunch of Stalinists or Orthodox Trotskyists arguing it's a deformed workers state through implications. I've seen some other people arguing that it's feudal too, which I'd argue couldn't survive international competition. They are textbook State Capitalism. Tony Cliff wrote a lot of great analysis of the USSR and how they are structured that I would recommend reading. If they were socialist (as is implied by someone posting this on a socialist subreddit) they would be democratic. You can't point at anything and call it socialist if it doesn't have democracy in the workplace. Capitalism can benefit from giving people all kinds of things. It might benefit one country to increase unemployment or to provide housing. State Capitalism tends to need the state to control major industries in the country like housing so they wouldn't benefit by reducing any of their worker's productivity by forcing them onto the streets. Don't defend morally reprehensible nations.
The DPRK never fails to be based
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i think a key component of socialism might be the kratos of the demos. not seeing that in the republic of north korea, ngl
Yes, there is democracy in North korea, but it's not like here https://youtu.be/QJVXUCnMIZg?si=ntRSroOf54beN-Yi video is spanish, sorry
sure, but it seems like the figurehead of the state is a little bit more than just a figurehead. it has some democratic elements but also some not, and it seems to have more undemocratic elements than quite a few others, right ?
No.
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Go and actually educate yourself and stop looking at the world with what the western media tells you. The majority is imperialist/capitalist propaganda with a strong hatred towards left leaning countries, China, North Korea, Cuba etc. The world is a lot more different than what western propaganda tells you.
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Can someone explain what does that rectangle with numbers mean, in the bottom of the third picture?
It looks like target practice for soccer. You can see a goal to the left.
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Thank you for posting in r/socialism, but unfortunately your submission was removed for the following reason(s): >**Flamewarring:** Refers to any excessively hostile and inflammatory discourse. May include things like lengthy rants or starting arguments in unrelated threads, particularly those which have devolved into sectarian mudslinging, empty rhetoric, and/or personal attacks against other users, or any other posts or comments where the primary purpose is to stir drama, incite controversy, or derail a thread. For example, users who start mudslinging about China in a post celebrating the birthday of Thomas Sankara may see ban time. More information can be [found here](https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/l5ccjb/topics_of_contention_raising_the_quality_of/). If no further action accompanies this message, this should be counted as a warning. Feel free to send us a modmail with a link to your removed submission if you have any further questions or concerns.